Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - How to Sell Anything, Even If You Hate Sales

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Money Rehabbers: have you listened to Help Wanted (Nicole's podcast with Entrepreneur editor in chief Jason Feifer) yet? If not, we gotchu! Today, enjoy this special episode of Help Wanted, where the caller who needs help is... Nicole. If you love it, subscribe to Help Wanted here: https://link.chtbl.com/85RcT5bT

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash. But I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start, or even too complicated, if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full-time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you.

I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no

maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits

apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. Money rehabbers, if you haven't already, you should check out the podcast I co-host with the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, Help Wanted. It's kind of like money rehab, but career rehab. On the show, Jason and I talk to real people with real big work questions and we answer them. If you want some of your questions answered, you can subscribe to Help Wanted.

The link is right there in the show notes. But if you want a little preview before you do so, I got you. I'm actually going to play you an episode from the show where I am said real person with a real big work problem. And I need Jason's advice. And he kind of makes me cry, but in a good way, mostly. Here's the episode. This is Help Wanted, the show that tackles all the big work questions you cannot ask anyone else. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine. And I'm New York Times bestselling author and money expert, Nicole Lapid.

The helpline is open. So Jason. So Nicole. Lately, I have been a whole hot anxious mess. Oh, why? Actually, you've been witness to it. I think we've been on these sales calls recently. Yeah. For the whole network. Because it's important to us because we care about our listeners and we want to be really involved in brands that we legit like. All that is good. Also, because we need to make money because otherwise this thing doesn't exist. Also, because we need to make money.

Otherwise, we have no business. We have to do it. Yeah, have to do it. And it's giving me a lot of anxiety. I hate it. I hate it. And I always, I have to like change my shirts because I'm like profusely sweating under my armpits like a truck driver. Oh, wow.

You keep it very cool. I didn't know that. You didn't even know. I try. I'm like putting my nails. I have like really long, crazy nails. And I put them in my hand to like calm myself. Oh. At the end of these meetings, I have these little nail marks

in my hand. Really? Yeah. But can you tell when we're on these calls? No. So let's step back and say, this is what we're talking about today. We're going to talk about how to feel comfortable in sales. Because if you're starting a business, you're certainly going to be the head salesperson. But also, frankly, everybody has to be salesy in some way. You're always selling yourself, even if you're applying for a job. Yep. You're the product.

And a lot of people think that sales is very dirty and they want to have nothing to do with it or it makes them punch nail holes into their hands. And so I'm excited to talk through this with you because you are feeling super anxious about this. I am there participating in these calls. And also I have gone through over the last number of years, a journey in being more comfortable about sales because I do a lot of sales for a whole lot of my stuff. So here we go. Let's do it. But let me go back to, all right, so people can picture this, these sales calls that you're describing, that you're destroying your hands over, they usually look like, not always, but they usually are, it's a Zoom, right? We're usually on a Zoom, and it's you, me, and Morgan, and then somebody from some brand that we've reached out to. And then somebody from some brand that we've reached out to.

Sometimes we cold reached out to them. Sometimes we got some intro to them. And so we're getting on the call. And we don't know if they're going to be interested in us at all. We don't know what they want. Sometimes they're engaged. Sometimes they are very clearly doing this because it's the 17th call of the day and this is their life and they don't really want to be with us. And we just got to be on and selling.

And you hate it. I hate it. And I have done some in person, too. I don't have my emotional support humans there with me and you and Morgan. I dislike it a lot. You know, I have met a lot of marketers over the years. I've interviewed them. I've been part of groups with them and become friends with them. And I have built a network whereby I don't think about it transactionally. I think of it as ultimately over time, like you help me, I help you where it makes sense. And I like to be of service. We've talked about this a thousand

times. I really do. I like to say like, how can I be helpful with you? I ask you for a lot of stuff, but it's like you. With other people, I'm finding it just so tricky to come out and ask them, or do you do this dance, right? Like, do you, you know, reconnect with a CMO that you haven't talked to in five years? Do you like jump on the phone with them? Do you try to like, you know, plan a catch up session? Or is that disingenuous? Because really, you want to ask them to help you with some sales thing, right? Or do you get right into it? Is that like more respectful of their time? What ultimately will yield the best results? I mean, I have this conversation with myself all day long these days. So then it sounds like there's two problems. There is the,

how do we get into this sales thing in the first place? How do we set it up? How do I get somebody to talk to me or how do I get somebody to help me? And then there's the actual, let's make the sale part of it where you're drilling in and that both of them have their discomforts. Yeah. And I think you and I and Morgan have been on calls where we've tried to figure out this choreography and like we are polishing it. It's still very much, you know, a work in progress as everything is. And some of the first ones we had, like we came up with decks and offerings and like a presentation and we practiced a presentation. And then we decided that that was like a little too much of a hard sell. And so you actually were a big advocate in the soft sale, right?

Yes. So, okay, let's just orient. We'll take the second part first here, which is the actual sale. And then I guess we'll go back and we'll talk about asking people to just like set up these calls because that's a whole other thing. Yeah. You're like, you have a lot of problems right now. I'm going to organize your thoughts. Yeah. No. You're so anxious about it that we're just jumping all over the place. But this is good because this is ultimately the thing. When people think about sales, what they think about is I'm in front of somebody. I need to get them to appreciate what I do or to commit to something. And how do I do that? And there are a lot of different approaches. Some people are really good at it. They are the

sales shark. They're going to come in and they're going to ABC it, always be closing. And then there are other people who take a totally different approach and they are more casual and they let the potential client come to them. And so we've tried both. We've tried, here's the deck. We're going to give you a presentation. Here's a whole thing, razzle dazzle. And then we've also tried, oh, tell us what you're interested in and let us tell you about how that is exactly what we do. But it's all casual. We're not going to send you a whole thing. Nobody wants a whole thing. Let me tell you by way of getting to why I advocate for the softer sell, how I got there for myself. And I don't know if I've told you this, but I was deeply uncomfortable selling anything. But it wasn't

until I started speaking for money that I then had to get on the phone with people and try to convince them to hire me and then also give them a price that they would pay. And that was so uncomfortable for me. I hated it. And as a result, do you remember what I did? Because we talked about this at the time. You hired an agent? Well, I did do that later. No, back then, I just undercut myself. Oh, yeah, yeah. You were like, I'll just come for $5. Yeah, basically. Yeah. I was like, I had a number in my head. And then as we were talking, I would just undercut myself and give them half of that

number because I just felt so obnoxious asking them for money. And the turn came when I started to watch how people did it to me because I realized that I have a lot of people pitching me all the time. And I realized that the people who are really, really good at it don't make it feel like a sales pitch. And that's because in their heads, they are not thinking of it as a sales pitch. In their heads, they are thinking of it as value. They have something of value and it is therefore their responsibility to get it to me because I need the thing. I have a problem. They have a solution. They need to get it to me. That's their job. They are doing me a favor. And whether or not that's always true, who knows, who cares?

The point is that they're thinking about it that way. And therefore, that's giving them this sense of calm and purpose. So before I go further, I'm curious. I mean, you are very proud of what we're doing here. So proud. You surely believe that a brand working with us is of benefit to the brand. Yeah, you're welcome, guys. So what is going on in your head so that even though you are thinking that

when you're actually making the pitch, you're still uncomfortable about it? Because we're at a point where we're not entrepreneur, right? So you can go into sales meetings in your other life and people know what Entrepreneur Magazine is. It's been around. You get it. Also, if you didn't totally get it, you understand the concept of the name and what a magazine is, right? We're kind of creating a category. And so we are going to crush it, obviously. Crushing it. And yet we still need to explain what we're doing. So I want to balance that with also the idea of why I am doing this. Right. Because we've talked about this before, like on CNBC, when you'd have fund managers on all the time,

like, why are you on this show when you should be running a business or actually making the money that you're saying you're making? So, like, why am I on the call? Why am I selling something? I host some shows. I like I'm supposed to be doing a lot of other things. Right. So I'm like struggling with this narrative of, hey, this is the product. I am here because I care about the product. But I promise you, we're also doing 10,000 other things, defying space-time continuum. So it's like a bunch of balances that's giving me a mental breakdown. your time with us. Why am I on this call? It's a lot. So these days on speaking, I do, I work with an agency. And so that means that the agency will bring me deals or they'll reach out and say, hey, we just got this client for you. And last week, one of the agents at my agency reached out and she said, hey, this is very rare, very in all caps. She was like, very rare. But can you take a call with a potential

client? And the reason is because they've been considering a lot of speakers and it's now down to two, you and someone else, and they want to have calls with the speakers. And the other speaker is going to take a call. So if you don't, I think we're at a disadvantage. So we're like, really sorry to ask for your time. So we took the call last week on Tuesday of this week, got the news, got the gig because I got on the phone with them and I sold them, soft sold. And then I emailed my main agent at my agency and I said, hey, this thing just happened. Here's what I want you to know. Please tell everybody. I will take the call. Anytime, even if you're just pitching me, put me on the phone. I want to be on the phone with them because I will close the business. And he responded and he said, I passed this around to everybody. Everyone went crazy for it. Thank you. We are going to do this. No other speaker requests to do this. Most speakers don't

even want to get on the phone with a client ever. And that's when I realized, oh, my competitive advantage is that I am willing to be accessible. Because the thing is that we are always up against bigger competitors. At my agency, there are more successful, more famous speakers that get more business than me. And for Money News Network, this podcast network that produces the show that we're talking about, there are other competitors. There are larger networks out there. And those networks have names that people have heard of because they've been out for a long time. And so you don't have to explain in the way that you're saying one of the things that gives you anxiety. So you have to explain

what we're doing because we're brand new. So okay, cool. But what do we have that they don't have? We've now established what they have that we don't have. But what do we have that they don't have? In speaking, what I have is my willingness to get on the phone. Why? I don't know because I guess I'm not enough of an ego hotshot that I won't do it because maybe I'm not making enough money to have created ego hotshotness. And so I'll do it. And here, the competitive advantage is that the founder is going to get on the phone on these pitches. And also that maybe those other networks, they do so much business that everything that they do is going to be just slotted in and whatever. If you want to pay them money, that's awesome. They'll take your ad.

But not over here. Over here, our competitive advantage is that we're going to be super creative and you have our attention. If you want to work with us and you got the whole team's attention, we're all on the call and we're all going to talk to you and we're all going to make something awesome together. And that isn't going to work for everybody because some brands aren't going to want that, but it's going to work for the brands that are going to want to work with us at this stage of growth. And when you think of it like that, then everything that you're doing that may feel different

from what other people are doing can be framed as a competitive advantage. And then that's exactly the kind of attitude that you want to have on that sales call because you are there to help them. Stick around. Help Wanted will be right back. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full-time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been

holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high-quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly.

I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime,

you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A.

Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Ch chime.com slash disclosures for details. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. Well, here's the thing. So I also join those sales calls sometimes when I need to close like a speaking thing or a TV thing or a something else. And I do great. And like, that gives me negative anxiety. And this also felt super transferable, right? Because I have all of the tools in the toolbox or the shed or the whatever. And so it's really surprising me

that I'm running up against this stumbling block. Yeah. And I would like to use this as stepping stone and all of those other great metaphors. But it surprised me because I have done sales calls like that, totally knocked it out of the park, not put my nails in my hands at all. And I don't know what exactly the difference is. Is it the stakes? Yeah. For some of those calls, like, did I need to do another speech? No. And I think people know that, right? Like, I'm like, cool. Like, I'll do it.

Like, you're welcome. Like, I don't need to. I've done 10,000 other speeches. Like, do I need this money too? Like, it's nice. Like, it's not gonna, it's not make or break for me. But for this, it feels more make or break. Even though it's not rationally, it just feels like there's more on the line.

And I know that people can smell that. Maybe. I don't know. How do you think I do? I think that you do great. Actually, I would say that if I had a note for you, and now I guess I do, the note for you on those calls is to talk more because you tend to hang back on those calls. And you let Morgan and I, primarily Morgan, do the bulk of the

talking, which is fine. But I know that you have a lot to say and that you're very convincing and that you understand this audience that we're serving incredibly well. And so it has struck me actually that you are often quieter on these calls than I thought that you would be. And now I understand why I think is because you're just like sitting there digging nails into hand. One of the things you might want to do is to stop thinking about the stakes as it relates to each individual call. The stakes are high for success of the whole enterprise. You've invested a lot in this. But that doesn't mean that every single call has high stakes because you know, as well as I do,

as well as anybody else in sales, that most pitches are going to go nowhere. Most calls are going to result in zero business. And that's just the nature of it. So if that's the case, then what are the stakes really of taking a call that statistically is not going to work out? It's like, I'm going to get on the call with this brand and statistically they are not going to make a purchase. That's not because it's this business. That's because it's any business. Because you make a call and people hear you out and then nothing happens and that's business. So if that's the case, then the stakes are actually quite low for everyone. And you breeze in and you do your thing and it's a volume game.

And the problem would be if you only have one phone call uh booked for the whole month and something better happen with that call but that's not the case we're taking lots of calls and so in that way i understand the stakes feel high because you you want you want some wins and every call is an opportunity to get a win but if we think about it in a different way, every call is just the march forward towards the win, right? It's like, if I have to call 15 people for every victory, well, then just can somebody just get me on the phone with 15 people? Just like, let's just do this. How many, let's book the calls so I could talk to 15 people so I can get to the win. Is it 14? Then we're going to ignore me. I don't know which one it's going to be, but let's just do it. And I think that has to be the attitude.

Yeah. I also think that I feel more guilty, perhaps, or responsibility because I'm roping you in. I'm roping Morgan in. The calls that you take to close your deals and the ones that I've done, it's been me. It's not serious. And now I'm just like, well, there's more folks here. Yeah. Fuck.

Like I, before it was just me, just blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, kind of like cuckoo personalities, like do really well in entertainment stuff anyway. And here it doesn't feel like that. Here it feels like, you know, there are a bunch of buttoned up folks. This is like the corporate land has not really been my land and now we have morgan doing digital arts and crafts making decks

you you know doing your like soft sell vibe which you know you have a lot of other calls to do throughout the day so you're taking your time to do this call. And so I'm just like, I feel bad. Then I feel like pressure and responsibility. And so it's like this big mind fuckery that goes on with me as I approach these deals. The answer is that we're just, we're in, you know, like we're in. I'll speak for me, but I know I speak for morgan just excited to do this with you and to build this and i know it's going to be hard like i think that part of the possibly part of the problem for you is that you feel like you're asking us to do these things right you're

like morgan who is an amazing editorial mind is now also like running sales calls and making sales decks and stuff that's like you know different from the first things you guys did together like making great podcasts and then me uh yeah like i have other things on the calendar um and so this is like an extra call in the day or whatever but i understand that signing up for this wasn't signing up for quick money and that signing up for this was really like a bet on the idea and the team and you and that is not a bet that i expect to pay off immediately that's a long-term thing and so i don't need if like, I feel like part of the anxiety there is, oh, I'm asking Jason to join to like clear out his calendar for I mean, we did this this morning, right? I mean, like, you know, you just for context for people, you and I are talking at 2pm right now on a Thursday. And this morning at 1030 in the morning, we were on a call with a brand. 730 my time 7 30 your time right right so very early to get that call you had asked a friend who we both know to like help set that

call up and then we did and you know it was fine is it gonna lead to any business who knows it was a half an hour of us talking to somebody who may or may not be interested. Who knows? And I want you to know that I have zero expectation for a specific ROI on that half hour of my life. I don't. I'm joining that call because I want to join a lot of calls because I want to be on this journey. And it's not going to be easy. It's going to be a whole lot ups and downs. And that's just fine. That's just what it is because that's what it means to start a business. And so I know that you're thinking

these things have to turn into something so that I don't feel like I'm wasting other people's time. But I think that, well, it's really great to have this conversation because I didn't know that was in your head. So now you can know that like my, and I'm sure, again, I'll just speak

for Morgan, time horizon here is long. And also, I know that right now it's a startup. It's hard to sell things when you're a startup. It's hard to convince people to work with you when you don't have a long track record of the thing that you're building. And that sometimes the thing that is required is going through the process of pitching over and over and over again. I've heard this from so many entrepreneurs that they had to pitch a hundred times before they figured out how to talk about themselves in a way that was relatable and relevant to the client that they were reaching out to. And then once they figured that out, things changed. And I just see it that way. To go back to speaking again, on my book tour, quote unquote, when my book came out, I booked a whole lot of colleges. I would buy books and then I would show up. And sometimes I would show up and there would be a room full of college kids. And sometimes I would show up and there would be like four college kids. And that sucked because I spent half a day traveling there.

But you know what I thought? So first of all, I did think, it's good it's just me. It would be very embarrassing to have brought somebody along to this. But again, to go back to this thing that I said a bit ago about the number of calls you have to take, literally, here's what I kept telling myself. It's a very good line, even if it's a lie. Who knows? There is a certain number of empty rooms that I have to stand in in my life before all the rooms are full.

And I don't know what that number is. Is that number 75? Is that number 300? I don't know what that number is. But whatever it is, every time I'm in an empty room, it's one less. It's one less empty room that I have to be in. And that has been helpful because it's just like, this is the stage of the journey that I'm in. I'm in the stage of the journey right now where sometimes I show up and it's a room full of people and sometimes I show up and it's not. And that's what it means to build something. So that's what you're doing. And you find partners who understand that and who are like bought in, not on the idea that the next phone call is going to buy them a car, but that the next phone

call is just the next phone call. So like, I kind of want to cry. Like my throat is like getting crinkly, but I have lashes on and I have like two other interviews after this. So I really don't want to cry. But I love my lashes more than you. So. Okay, that's fine. So then why don't I just keep talking about sales so that this doesn't have to get emotional. But I appreciate that. I will take whatever emotion that was. So here's the other thing that I found. When I'm on sales calls, I didn't realize that I was doing this.

I say this thing when I'm pitching people. Tell me the thing. Yeah. I didn't notice the thing until I had to take a sales call in a car. And I had a friend in the car who works at Google. And she was very interested in this call. And as soon as I got off the phone, she said, I was so interested in this line that you said. And the line that I say is, if we decide to work together. I wasn't conscious about that. But that's what I say when I'm pitching people.

If we decide to work together, which is to say, I know that you're making a decision. Frankly, I'm making a decision too. And I like that because I don't want them to feel like they're in a position where I'm putting them on the spot or that I need it from them. I want them to feel like the thing that I am here to do is to make everyone's lives better. And maybe that means that you're going to have me at your event and I'm going to do really well for your audience. Maybe that means that I, you know, I want to be at your event. I don't know. We'll find out. We're going to talk. We're going to have a conversation. We'll make a decision. Yeah. It's like dating, right? Yeah. You come across as being real thirsty.

Right. Yeah, if we decide to be together, right? Like, it's not like if you decide to be with me. It's like, it's a team effort. Yeah, right. Because that's actually a point of leverage that you lose. If every time you go out on a date, your presentation is basically like,

I am here, it is your choice. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. That's not sexy. That has been a good mental softness for me. I'm going to come in. I'm going to tell you how good I am. I am. I'm going to be very clear about that. I'm going to do it in the context of, I want to understand what your needs are. This is how I always do it, right? This is why when we were planning these sales calls, I suggested that we start by asking the client what they're up to and what their priorities are, which is just something that I heard the

sales team at Entrepreneur do that I just started to repeat. But I do it on the speaking calls too, because they'll tell me. And then once they tell me, I can start to, instead of just telling them how great I am, I can tell them how I fulfill exactly the thing that they're looking for. And then it's on me to figure out how to speak that in a really intelligent way and to understand their needs and to have the right anecdotes and to pick up on their vibe and try to connect with them. But that's why then I want to say, if we decide to work together, because the point of this is when we're on a call, we're here to build something together, right? Even if it's a little thing, we're here to build something together. This is not me asking for money and this is not me hoisting myself upon you.

This is we're going to build something together. And that's how I want them to feel. So that's why I like the soft sell. And that's why that's like my attitude going into these things. I got verklempt because it's really nice to work with you. You too. And to be on the journey with you. I, nobody else I would want to journey with. So let's go sell some fucking stuff. Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason Pfeiffer. And me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive

producer is Morgan Lavoie. If you want some help, email our helpline at helpwanted at moneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram at moneynews and TikTok at moneynewsnetwork for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance? Oh, I didn't sign up for that. All right. Well, talk to you soon. you