Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - "I Was Diagnosed With Stage 4 Cancer. How Do I Protect My Dependents?"
Episode Date: July 22, 2025Today’s episode is one of the most powerful we’ve ever done on Money Rehab. Nicole sits down with a listener named Erin, who reached out after being diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. Her messa...ge was simple, yet profound: “I need to get my finances in order to make sure my loved ones are taken care of.” What follows is a raw, courageous conversation about life, money, and legacy. Erin shares her fears, her love for her family, and the steps she’s taking to give them financial peace of mind. Nicole brings in attorney Veronica Escobar to walk through the essentials of estate planning—from wills and trusts, to power of attorney and beyond. This is not just a conversation about preparing for death. It’s about taking control, even in moments when everything feels uncertain. It’s about how we can use money as a tool to protect the people we love. This episode is for anyone who wants to plan ahead, not out of fear, but out of love. It’s an emotional listen, but an essential one. Tomorrow’s episode will be a follow-up, where Nicole answers Erin’s questions about saving for medical care. But today, we focus on what Erin wanted most: peace of mind for her family. Check out the company Nicole connected Erin with for estate planning, Trust and Will, here Learn more about Veronica Escobar’s work and practice here This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, or legal advice. Always do your own research and consult a licensed financial advisor before making any financial decisions or investments. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for US-listed, registered securities, options and bonds in a self-directed account are offered by Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA & SIPC. Public Investing offers a High-Yield Cash Account where funds from this account are automatically deposited into partner banks where they earn interest and are eligible for FDIC insurance; Public Investing is not a bank. Cryptocurrency trading services are offered by Bakkt Crypto Solutions, LLC (NMLS ID 1890144), which is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the NYSDFS. Cryptocurrency is highly speculative, involves a high degree of risk, and has the potential for loss of the entire amount of an investment. Cryptocurrency holdings are not protected by the FDIC or SIPC. *APY as of 6/30/25, offered by Public Investing, member FINRA/SIPC. Rate subject to change. See terms of IRA Match Program here: public.com/disclosures/ira-match.
Transcript
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I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand.
It's time for some money rehab.
Today's episode is a really, really special one for me.
It's one that I hope you not only listen to, but really sit with.
Because today we're talking about money and mortality,
life and legacy. About how to take control of your financial life in a moment when everything
else feels so uncertain.
My guest today is Erin. She is someone whose story is going to stay with me for a very
long time. She's a money rehabber who DM'd me on Instagram and told me that she had been
diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. She wanted to talk about what she needed to do to get her finances in order
so that her husband and her mom are taken care of in case her condition worsens.
I wanted to make sure that Erin not only had the financial insight, but the legal insight
as well. So later in the episode, Erin and I will be joined by Veronica Escobar, an attorney
specializing in trusts and estates, as well as elder law
and special needs training. Erin also asked me some questions around saving for medical
care that I want to answer for her as well, so you're going to hear a second episode
tomorrow focusing on those questions. But today we focus on what's top of mind for
her. How to make sure her dependents will be okay. I know you will be moved by Erin's story just as much as I was.
I was actually so affected by her selflessness that on-air I decided that I wanted to be there
and take the next steps with her. So I'll share more on how I did that at the very end of the
episode. But first, I want to introduce you to Erin. Erin, welcome to Money Rehab.
Thank you so much. This is pretty amazing. I followed your career and you motivated me to open my 401k years ago when I bought your book. So thank you for having me.
Oh my god, Erin. I'm already tearing up. I just want to say you are amazing. This is, I'm legit tearing up. I want to start by just saying how honored I am to have you here sharing your story.
Can you just start by telling all of us the story of how you were diagnosed?
Sure.
So, I'm about 16 months into my journey.
In February of 2024, I was diagnosed with metastatic stage four breast cancer after
receiving my very first mammogram.
The reason I was going for my mammogram
is because the end of 2023, my mom had been diagnosed with stage one breast cancer.
And I was turning 40 last year, so it was a priority for me to do that. Just thinking it
would be routine, nothing out of the ordinary, just kind of checking it off the list to say,
I'm getting my first mammogram, check, done, can move on.
Didn't expect to then get a scare, followed by biopsies,
and told that I had stage two breast cancer
and that we were gonna do chemo, surgery, radiation,
and put me on menopause.
And as if that's not enough to deal with
wrapping your brain around that,
I then go for a PET
scan and my own oncologist was surprised to learn that it was actually stage four and
it had spread unbeknownst to everyone to my liver and my bones.
And there were no physical or outward indications that any of that was happening.
I considered myself to be physically fit and active, just never sick
in the hospital, all the things that we think there's some kind of warning, there's something
to tell you that something's going on in your body and there was nothing at all. So it was
devastating to try to reconcile that. How do you go from maybe seeing your doctor once a year for physical to now having dozens of appointments and scans and treatment plans and truly at the
base of it wondering, am I going to live and how long? So it's a very hard thing to reconcile.
And it's been difficult because my first two lines of treatment have failed, unfortunately.
And just so people are aware, metastatic breast cancer does not have a cure.
So it's not as my mom's situation was different where she had stage one, had a lumpectomy
and radiation and hopefully can move on with her life and will never have a reoccurrence.
This is a totally different ball game
where I will be in treatment the rest of my life.
And we pray that each treatment lasts as long as possible.
So within the first year,
my first two lines of treatment had already failed.
I'm on my third line of treatment now
and tolerating it well.
It is a chemotherapy.
So I think people have maybe an outdated perception
of what
stage four cancer looks like, what chemotherapy looks like. I look and feel very much like
myself for the most part, thankfully. I'm working full time, active, traveling. And
right now I'm in a very stable period. So because it's working, I can focus on the conversation
we're going to have now, which is so important,
and enjoying my life. And it's a nice time to just be me and just feel like myself again.
Always in the back of my mind worried that when and if this treatment fails, what will the next
one look like? Will the next treatment be more aggressive? But a lot of women deal with that,
unfortunately, in my situation. So.
Oh, my God, sister, I wish we were in person right now.
I would give you the biggest hug.
I'm giving you the biggest virtual hug right now.
I hope you feel some of that.
How are you feeling emotionally?
It's awesome that you are feeling so good physically to work, to have conversations
like this, to help other women. But what about
your thoughts, your emotions right now?
It's different, I would say, week to week, every couple weeks. Sometimes I'm disconnected
from my diagnosis, which for me is a healthy way to be because it can be all consuming.
Just thinking about the inevitable things that will happen and what's to come. And I
kind of have to tune the volume down on that, if that makes sense. I'm not in that place right now.
And then sometimes it all rushes at you and it does consume you. And you're just like,
how am I functioning? I ask myself that because people around me asked that, how are you functioning? How do you work? And all I can say is you get up and you just do it. I have no other explanation because I've
asked myself the same thing. I am more than entitled to fall apart every day if I wanted to,
but for me, don't find it to be helpful. The normal, the routine, just getting on with life,
it's helped me.
And what does your care team say now about what treatment might look like for you next? What does
the road ahead potentially look like? That was a difficult conversation with my oncologist. I'm a
very facts-based person. I like to know and be prepared. I generally don't bury my head in the sand with things.
So I asked my doctor flat out being that my first two treatments failed and I'm in this
position now, less than two years later already needing chemotherapy.
I'm not asking you to put a date on the calendar, but in your experience, how many good years
would you say I have from now?
And that was in February of this year.
And he said, honestly, one to two. That's his experience that no one knows what's going to happen. I can only hope that I have as many good years, vibrant years as possible. But I do have to prepare myself for that eventuality, unfortunately.
prepare myself for that eventuality, unfortunately.
Thank you so much for sharing that truly, Erin. I just can't tell you how meaningful this conversation is
to me and to all of our listeners,
how moved I was when you reached out to me.
So just for our listeners, no, you DM'd me to ask
if we could have a conversation on estate planning.
And I just wanna say, you know,
that being proactive is so, so brave.
It is so, so powerful.
And I know your intention
is to help a lot of people listening.
So thank you.
Yes, thank you.
It is because if anyone is in this situation
and somehow has the wherewithal
and the capacity to answer these questions,
I do think it'll
be helpful. There's so much swirling around when you find yourself in this position,
staying alive, getting a good doctor, getting a second opinion doctor. So if you find yourself
and you're listening and you're just like, these are some other things I should prepare for,
I hope that you are finding this helpful and it'll get, it'll be a
roadmap maybe to help get some questions answered for anyone who finds themselves in this place.
Amen. Okay. I can't really be helpful physically and emotionally, but I can be helpful financially.
So let's talk about what you have built financially. I'm so honored that you were inspired to start a 401k by some of my work. You sent me some of the details before we spoke today. And let me just say you and your husband have done an awesome job. Right now you guys have no debt outside of your mortgage, you have savings, you have strong retirement accounts. I know one of your top questions is how do I create a will to protect this for my family,
my husband and my mother.
And so I'm actually going to bring in Veronica Escobar.
She's an awesome lawyer out of New York.
She has her own elder law and trust and estates practice in New York to answer some of these
questions as thoroughly as possible.
Veronica, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for welcoming me.
And Erin, once again, it's so lovely to meet you
and hopefully answer some of your pressing questions.
You too, thank you.
So Erin, you asked me what type of will you should consider.
You don't have any will or any trust currently,
is that right?
That's right.
Okay, so Veronica, what are some of the best practices
that Erin can do around starting a will for
the first time?
Well,
I just want to backtrack a little bit and say that despite everything that she's
going through,
she's one tough cookie and she actually is doing all of the right things despite
what she may be feeling emotionally and what is going on in her body.
So that's first and foremost.
In terms of a will, it's really case specific
and it depends on the person,
their family structure, as well as their assets,
what type of assets they have and where they're held.
So having listened to Erin tell you a little bit
about her financial background,
I have a follow-up question.
Erin, do you have any children?
No, no children.
My mom is retired and lives with us,
so she does depend on us financially for the most part.
That was one of my concerns,
how we protect her in the event of my passing so that she's cared for.
Thanks so much for that tidbit of
information and more and more you do find adult children caring for their parents whether it's
the parent living in the home with the adult child or the adult child providing financial support for
that parent. So if that is a concern and if your parent you suspect at one point in time
in the future is going to require long-term care,
you may want to consider establishing a trust
that specifically addresses her needs,
whether it is providing a lump sum to her
or whether it is providing a monthly sum to her
that is for her health, her maintenance, and her support.
If I can ask a follow-up question, does your mother have a long-term care policy or does she
have sufficient funds liquid to fund her own long-term care? No and no. Okay. Do you have
life insurance policies? On myself, yes. Do they at any point have a beneficiary?
Yes.
Is your mother that beneficiary or is it your spouse?
My spouse is the primary and then she would be contingent if we were to both pass away.
Okay.
So one of the things that I would tell you that in addition to working with an estate
planning attorney, you should also work with your accountant.
And if you have a financial advisor with a financial advisor,
because they're very good at advising people about number one, how to best invest their money,
but also how to plan for long term care. And if your focus is being able to provide for your
mother financially, should you pass away, then that is a good topic to discuss with that individual.
Well, I'm sorry, Erin, do you have somebody to help you with that?
One of my questions to you was part of our retirement savings and a non-qualified account
we have with a franchise brokerage or wealth advisor, but that was something I was considering
moving. Veronica, your firm doesn't handle that.
No, the life expectancy and all those financial projections, that is squarely
within the wheelhouse
of a financial advisor. And when you're dealing with somebody like Erin, who has a life limiting
condition, you can often find estate planning attorneys working together with accountants and
with financial advisors to craft the best estate plan for that person considering their current medical situation.
So if Erin does not make a will, let's start with the house. What would happen to the house, Veronica?
If the house is held as joint tenants with right of survivorship, which is how most real estate is held between married couples,
then upon Erin's passing, should she pass, the house automatically goes to her husband. So then the husband has to consider
what his estate plan will look like now that he is a widower. So if the house is held as
joint tenants with right of survivorship, you don't really need to address it. However,
if Erin wanted to perhaps allow her mother to live in the house indefinitely, she may
want to include provisions in her will and in her trust that allows her mother to live in the house indefinitely, she may want to include provisions in her will and in her
trust that allows her mother to live there indefinitely, something akin to a tenancy
agreement. I don't know the dynamic between your husband and your mother, and I won't ask that
on this podcast, but if you have concerns privately about your mother being able to remain there for as long as possible,
then your will, but particularly your trust, has to have a clause that allows your mother to remain
there indefinitely. And indefinitely for me means until she has to leave, if she has to,
if she passes or if she can't be taken care of adequately within your home. But other than those circumstances, she does not have to leave because you don't want her to leave.
And I would also recommend that you have that conversation with your husband before you even talk to an attorney.
And that's another point is you need to write these things down and have them memorialized in a will because those are
Legally enforceable documents, but it's equally and I think more important to have these actual conversations with your loved ones face to face
Because it's one thing to see it in black and white It's another to remember having that conversation with a person that you love and care about. So I always,
always emphasize open and honest communication, especially about hard
things. And this is definitely one of those life hard things. But does Erin
need a trust in addition to her will? I mean, could a trust help make sure that
the home goes to her husband first and then her mom, if something were to happen to both of them.
Exactly. So if let's say her husband does not outlive her mother,
then you would want to make provision in the trust,
not only for your mother to be able to live there,
but to have the house passed to your mother should your husband pre-decease
you,
but you would also have to have your husband
execute his documents alongside you at the same time
so that your documents and his documents are identical
or almost identical as possible.
So in simple terms, that means you have to make provision
for your mother in your estate planning documents
and your husband simultaneously
should be making plans for you
even though you have this diagnosis,
but also making provision for his mother-in-law
with respect to the house.
If your mother does not have sufficient funds
to privately fund her long-term care,
then at some point, the possibility of having the house
placed in what's called a Medicaid Asset Protection Trust,
which is an irrevocable trust for the sole purpose
of protecting an asset for Medicaid eligibility,
that's a different conversation.
And that's a conversation that can happen down the road,
but it's not something that is of immediate concern to you.
It's more of a concern to your mother than it is to you right now.
But if the intent is that you want the house to go to your mother should something happen to your
husband as well, then having a trust absolutely preserves that desire and that wish.
But more importantly, you're avoiding probate and you're also avoiding having to go to surrogate court and if you know anything about surrogate court
in new york city the five boroughs are outside of new york city not only do they have a tremendous backlog
they don't have sufficient employees and there's a lot of bureaucracy and that
that basically induces a large expenditure of money, as well as Adjita.
People become very, very frustrated at having to wait
for a court to issue letters,
for a court to decide a legal issue.
And I think there's a lot of power in executing a trust
and addressing these things outside of the court's eyes.
We're definitely not letting Erin
and her loved ones go to probate.
Hell no. Absolutely not.
I just also want to acknowledge the obvious.
This is a hard conversation.
This is weird.
When I did my trust and will, it's weird.
Like there are a lot of these types of questions.
We're talking about death. We're talking about family.
We're talking about relationships between them.
If the worst case scenario happens.
But in the context of paperwork and process, I mean, we're trying to be adults here, but
it's hard and weird.
So I just want to check in with you, Erin.
How are you feeling right now?
I feel good.
Yes.
Like I said, I'm so to the point.
So my husband and I have had these very to the point conversations and he's like, oh,
dear.
I'm like, we have to talk about these things.
It's just, sorry, we've got a plan. And in my mind, of course, these are the kinds of conversations that I have with people every
single day. This to me is normal, but I also recognize that different families have different
communication styles, and that's influenced by multiple factors. But I think talking about
the hard things opens the door to talk about other things within a family
unit. So as hard as it may be, as emotionally difficult or as triggering as it may be to
you or to your husband, it's something that I absolutely recommend. And you can start
little by little, but the important thing is to start.
Yes. She's not only started, but she's putting this out there for everyone else. It's truly incredible.
So to get back to probate and the hell of that, we don't want her family involved in
that at all.
Is a will enough to bypass probate or she really needs a trust?
No, a will by its very definition is a probate document.
So if you only execute a will, your estate has to go through probate
and it has to go through what we call
in New York State surrogate's court.
So what I recommend to clients of mine
is not only executing a will,
but also executing a trust.
Because if you have a trust that handles more,
most of your, if not all of your assets,
whether they're property or liquid or liquid equivalent
assets, you have a will that is there as a safety net of sorts. Because oftentimes what can happen
is you may forget to add title of an asset to the trust. You may take an asset out for some reason
and not, you know, reintroduce it into the trust, things can happen, especially when you're
dealing with a difficult diagnosis and life happens. So in the event that an asset is not accounted
for in the trust or it's not made a beneficiary or the, excuse me, the trust is not made beneficiary
of that asset, the will is there to act as a safety net so that it does not fall into
intestacy. And intestacy is when you do not have a will or when the asset itself
is not accounted for in a will. So a will always, but always with the objective of
avoiding probate at every cost. So your recommendation is that Erin create a
trust put the house so the beneficiary would basically be the trust. So the
co-trustees would be Erin and her spouse, the beneficiary of the house and any
other assets would be the husband, a contingent or successor beneficiary would
be her mother only under the condition
that her husband predeceases her specifically.
But when we're addressing the specific issue of her mom,
you also need her husband to address it
in his estate planning documents
because the likelihood of him predeceasing Erin is small.
It's never zero, but it's small.
And if that were to happen,
he has to have documents that also protect Erin
and his mother-in-law.
So even though our conversation is really geared
towards Erin addressing her assets
and protecting her husband and her mom,
it's equally as important for her husband
to protect Erin and his mother-in-law at the same time.
How does that sound, Aaron?
I get it.
Hold onto your wallets.
Money rehab will be right back.
And now for some more money rehab.
So basically the trust is a wrapper.
You put a bunch of stuff, all the assets.
So your brokerage would be in the trust.
The retirement accounts would change the beneficiary to be the trust.
Yes. Right, Veronica, what else?
Yes, you can also place liquid assets like regular checking accounts, money markets,
as the beneficiaries or the trust being the beneficiary of those accounts. Obviously,
that would mean opening up new bank accounts at your local financial institution, wherein the
trust is named as the title holder of those monies so that when the time comes, all of your assets are now
part of the trust and those assets are distributed pursuant to the terms of the trust. So they're
already part of it when the person dies. They're either titled in the name of the trust or the trust
is the beneficiary of those assets. So in the context of the house,
that would require a title change
and that would require the consent of the husband
to change the title from joint tenants
with right of survivorship to the Aaron,
I'm not gonna say your last name,
the Aaron and I'm just gonna call your husband John,
the Aaron and John Doe irrevocable or revocable trust, and then
proceed from there because they have to work on these documents together. In the
case of Aaron and her husband, because they are young people, they are not yet
retirement age, I never recommend irrevocable trusts because they're
exactly what they sound like. They're irrevocable and that is a tool that
people use as they're approaching retirement they sound like. They're irrevocable. And that is a tool that people use
as they're approaching retirement or post-retirement and specifically if they are trying to protect
assets in one way or another. So in Erin's circumstance, it would be revocable. With the
understanding that Erin's not going to terminate the trust, but it gives her the power to control the trust, to remove or add assets,
to modify the terms of the trust whenever she would like. And if at some point she wanted to
terminate it, she can. And you do not have that kind of flexibility with an irrevocable trust.
But irrevocable trusts, again, are used under different circumstances that are not applicable
to Erin. How does that sound, Aaron? I have more questions for you.
Oh good. Yeah. No, you're probably thinking of things I'm not. So please fire away.
Okay. So generally Aaron, we want to make sure that your mom is taken care of. So Veronica,
you mentioned a few different tactics that she could look into, obviously have these
conversations, be super clear about her intentions with her
husband and her mom in terms of assets.
So how can Erin structure the trust to provide for her mom?
I mean, can she direct her husband to do things to care for her mom in the trust or in the
will like he has to save money for her health care?
Or is it best practice to divvy up the assets between her mom and her husband?
So, Erin's husband and her mother are obviously very differently situated.
Her mother is an older person who is, you know, confronting different issues than her son-in-law.
So, generally speaking, her husband would want immediate access or as close to immediate access
to whatever Erin decides to leave him.
But when we're talking about the mother,
it really depends on is the mother healthy?
Is she independent?
Does she have any neurocognitive deficits right now?
Is it sooner rather than later
that she's going to require long-term care?
And if the answer to those questions is no,
then Erin can
definitely consider leaving a large sum of money to her mother and then it would
be up to her mother to consult with an attorney of her own choosing to do her
own estate planning if she hasn't done it. So one of the benefits of Erin
having this conversation with you and I is that it creates a domino effect.
It gets her to act, it gets her husband to act,
and inevitably it will also allow her mother to act
to also do some planning of her own.
And that's something that I do strongly recommend.
But if the concern is being able to afford long-term care
and if Erin wants to protect her mother
from having excess income or excess assets,
then she may want to structure the trust
so that her mother is given a set monthly stipend
for however long necessary.
And the trust can also dictate that the trustee
outlay funds for anything that her mother needs.
So health, meaning medical care, medical co-pays, medical costs, maintenance, meaning housing if that was necessary,
clothing, necessities, travel. It's as specific or as general as she wants it to be,
and that is something that she would have to
discuss with the lawyer that she retains is how specific does she want the language to be because
what the trust is essentially is a roadmap for the trustee. It tells the trustee I grantor Aaron
want you to do A, B, C, D, E, F, G for this person and this is how I want you to carry out this job.
So the trust will likely last until her mother dies with the understanding that her husband
would receive whatever she wants him to receive immediately but that for the purposes of her
mother the trust lasts as long as her mother is alive. So she should also consider any possible
contingent future beneficiaries who are not her husband and not her mother. I
like to cover all my bases. Anybody she wants, a charity, another family
member, a close friend, it's not likely. It's not likely that the money will
outlast her mother, but you never know.
So I always want people to think of contingent beneficiaries
in the event the trust is still funded,
which is not likely, but I always do.
And how does that sound?
And separately, you and I will talk about
some of the insurance that you might wanna think about
for your mom, but that sounds like it's outside the scope of what Veronica does. But how does this idea of how the trust is structured sound to you so far?
Yeah, I'm on board.
And so I know, Erin, you also had a question about how your husband would inherit your retirement accounts. Can you take us through what those accounts are, what you
have and who currently is the beneficiary?
Sure. So I have my employer sponsored Roth 401k. It has a 4% match and I have my husband
listed as a beneficiary. Outside of that, I have a Roth IRA with a franchise wealth
advisor and then we have a non-qualified account with both our
names on it. And he has his own IRA with the same franchise wealth advisor. And then the bulk of his
retirement savings is through his employer as well. He's a government employee. So I just wondered,
because as an example, when my father-in-law passed away five years ago, my husband now has an inherited IRA.
I forget the details of that or why that came to be,
but what then happens with my retirement accounts?
Does he just get a lump sum check with
the franchise IRA and then my employer sponsored 401k,
or does it convert to an inherited IRA automatically?
I was not clear on that.
That's slightly outside of my wheelhouse,
but what I would recommend to you
is that your husband consult with an accountant
and a financial advisor so that they can together determine
the best way to approach those inherited accounts,
because there are certain penalties that can be incurred
depending on how those funds are disbursed.
So that's slightly outside of my wheelhouse.
I do understand some of the mechanics,
but it's when it comes to like how people disperse their funds
or how they choose to inherit it.
So because I want, I want it to be as tax friendly,
let's say for my husband's benefit to inherit, you know,
it's like how, what do the rich people do that create tax shelters?
And that way, when he inherits this buddy and whatever mechanism we use that,
it's not like with his father's inherited IRA,
he has to take a disbursement every year.
He's just required to do that.
So I understand like you were saying some of those mechanics,
but I'm just like, why does that have to be or can we not make it so?
And how do we maybe create some kind of tax shelter for him? Should he inherit? Yeah, for sure. So because he
got it from his dad, it would be non spouse beneficiary. And generally they have to take
out all the money within 10 years. But when you have a spouse as a beneficiary, you do have more
options, including rolling it over to his own IRA, for instance.
So that's probably the difference there,
but Veronica, I wanted to bring you in
as to what she should do with the beneficiary.
Step one, it sounds like set up the trust,
name the trust, create who the trustee,
who the beneficiaries are, answer all of these questions.
Once you have that set up, then you put, Veronica,
the name of the
beneficiary for these retirement accounts as the trust.
Correct. Anything like an IRA or a 401k, a trust cannot be, you can't title those accounts
in the name of a trust, but you can name the trust as the beneficiary of those funds. So
when the person dies, essentially you have to fill out paperwork,
you present a copy of the death certificate,
and then the company issues a check that is sent directly.
You can have it wired, it can be a paper check,
and it goes directly into the bank account
that is set up for those trust funds.
So for liquid assets,
you can title it in the name of the trust. For real estate you
can title it in the name of the trust. For anything like a 401k or an IRA the trust is the
beneficiary. So that's the distinction there. The trust itself will identify not only who the trustee
is but also who gets what. It can either be in dollar amounts or it can be in
percentages. And that's kind of a difficult thing to talk about. And I think it really comes down
to personal preference. Some people are much more partial to saying, Jane Doe will get 25% of the funds originating from this account.
Jondo will get 50% of the funds and then the remainder, if any, is split between these
two people.
It really depends on the specific assets held by each individual and what their preference
is about how they wish to disperse the funds, whether it's a solid dollar amount or whether it's by percentages.
Hold onto your wallets.
Money rehab will be right back.
And now for some more money rehab.
So I actually wanted to ask Erin a question if it's okay.
Have you executed a power of attorney?
No.
Okay.
So I know that this isn't specifically central to the conversation about wills and trusts,
but for me in my practice, and I know that I speak for my colleagues, equally as important
as a will and a trust is what we call collectively advanced directives.
The power of attorney is the legal document
that controls the management of financial property
and legal issues.
And the healthcare proxy is what assigns an agent
to manage medical care.
And that could be anything from routine medical care,
diagnostic exams, major and minor medical procedures,
as well as end of life.
So depending on what your religious or spiritual
or moral beliefs are,
this is also a conversation that you should have
with your medical team and also with your husband
and your mother about what you consider
to be a dignified life, as well as a dignified ending. You know, dignity is
very specific and very personal to each individual and what is a dignified life
to you may not be a dignified life to somebody else. So if you have very strong
beliefs about what you would like the end of your life to look like and what directions you want your agent who could either be your husband,
your mother or some other trusted individual in your life.
Those are things that need to be memorialized in a health care proxy.
Oftentimes I've had people say to me, well, what about a living will?
In New York state, living wills are not statutory,
meaning they're not codified
under law. They are utilized by people as a complementary document to a health care proxy,
but the health care proxy is what is codified. That's what's statutory. So medical providers,
your medical team, they will follow the directives as stated in your health care proxy, and they
will follow the directives of the person
that you choose to be your agent. So I wanted to highlight that specifically because of your
current medical diagnosis and how important it is to have people in place in the event that you can
no longer make decisions for yourself and also on the flip side with the power of attorney, manage and conserve your assets and provide for you in the way that you desire.
And this is all generally a bundle, right? Veronica, when I did this, I was like, power of attorney, health care proxy was just all kind of at the same time.
Any attorney worth their salt will not let a client not do all of those documents together. And I cannot tell you how many times people have come to me
and all they have is a will.
And I said, well, did you ever execute this
and this and this?
And they're like, no.
And you're not really servicing your client.
You're not really servicing the public
if you do not at the very least explain to people
the importance of all of these documents together
and why they are not optional. They're pretty much mandatory if you want to be protected during life
and if you want your wishes respected after death. So if Aaron or somebody in Aaron's position
incurs medical debt. Okay, so medical debt is essentially something
that can be claimed against the estate after Erin's death.
And what that means is that after letters testamentary
are issued or as the trust is being administered,
that means that the creditor would be able to file a claim
against the estate in surrogate's court,
meaning that they would want the debt to be satisfied.
So the debt survives her life.
The debt is not extinguished upon her death.
So what I tell clients is that most debt is negotiable.
And so that would be up to the trustee
or the executor of the estate
to negotiate with the creditors with respect
to how much of that debt is going to be paid. And I strongly recommend that if Erin were
to accumulate any sort of medical debt, that it be negotiated strenuously by her trustee
or her executor.
So basically, we would have to negotiate
any outstanding medical debt
and is all kind of debt not extinguished?
Medical debt is not extinguishable at all.
So I would tell any family that's facing a situation
like this that they be prepared to negotiate,
specifically talking about people
who perhaps are on Medicaid for long-term care.
Medicaid is one of the biggest creditors in the country.
There's certainly a massive creditor here in New York,
and it is not unheard of for them to file claims
against the state for services that are rendered,
and hospitals do the same.
It's very frequently that they will file a claim
against the estate to have any
sort of medical debt paid.
So it's very possible that if you have a strong negotiator as a
trustee or as an executor,
or if you have very strong and capable counsel by your side,
that you can negotiate the debt, you know,
25 cents to the dollar or maybe even zero.
You never know unless you actually negotiate.
So I'm very big on clients not capitulating to the asking amount for medical debt,
because most of those amounts are inflated anyway.
They're inflated amounts.
And I don't think that I think that debt should be paid if they're owed, obviously.
But I think a reasonable amount of debt is they're owed, obviously, but I think a reasonable amount
of debt is what needs to be paid, not the overinflated numbers that really do a number
on American families in terms of wiping out savings and leaving them in very, very precarious
financial positions. Yes, 100%. And we have a lot of episodes on that. We'll link those in the show
notes for anyone who wants to negotiate medical debt.
And beyond, I've recorded myself negotiating all sorts of wild debt.
Erin, what else?
How are you feeling?
Any other questions?
I was going to ask if it's possible to give listeners an estimate of what retaining an
attorney to handle all of this would cost.
I know it may vary by state, for example, but what could people potentially be in for to have all of this would cost. I know it may vary by state, for example, but what could people potentially be in for
to have all of this handled?
So in a metropolitan area like New York City
and the surrounding counties,
just because of the cost of living and wages, et cetera,
you'll be looking at anything from 8,000
and some practitioners charge up to 18,000 for this kind of work.
And it really depends on whether the practitioner is a solo practitioner, is a member of a small
firm, mid-size, large firm.
It also depends on whether or not the person's estate is complicated in terms of potential tax issues or tax consequences.
So whenever you're really talking
about very high net worth individuals,
it's almost automatic that you're going
to get tax planning involved.
And that also means that in addition
to flat fees for documents,
you're also looking at an hourly rate.
So on the higher end, you're looking in the five figures.
But I would caution anybody listening
to not let that dissuade you
from pursuing any sort of estate planning
because to me, that is an investment.
And it's probably one of the best investments
that any person can make in themselves and in their family.
And it also just brings a tremendous amount
of peace of mind that you were able to accomplish that
and that your wishes will be respected
whenever that time comes.
And it's also to diminish or completely eliminate
any possibility of friction in the family.
Because one of the things that we see very often
is when somebody dies, people just act all kinds of ways
that are unexpected and it's usually tied to grief
or it's tied to unresolved issues within the family.
So it's really on the person who's executing
these documents to make sure that those documents
are as bulletproof
as possible and that it eliminates any sort of objection or potential discord within the
family, generally speaking.
I mean, yes, that's, that's definitely on the high end. If somebody has a more straightforward
trust and will and advanced directive power attorney bundle, uh, There are a lot of services that can
also do this online. Erin, we got you. We're going to hook you up with this. I want to
make sure that you have this taken care of. I want to pay for it. We're going to talk
offline to figure out how to get all of these set up for you. I got you.
You're not going to make me cry.
Oh, we're all going to cry.
Don't make me cry.
Don't make me cry.
I'm like, all I do is send a DM
and this wonderful woman is,
that's all I did is send a DM and it's just amazing.
What I will say to her, and this is somewhat legal,
but it's really coming from me as a person,
is the time to really focus on these issues is now,
I heard you at the beginning of the episode
talk about you
working full-time and really feeling like yourself and at times having to
disconnect from your diagnosis. It goes really back to that saying you can only
control the things that are within your control. Everything else are things that
you really have to surrender to and you are putting up the good fight with
respect to the cancer and you should be,
but you should also be living your life.
So I would recommend that you seek out an attorney now.
And I can pretty much guarantee that by the end
of the process, you will have felt like a million pounds
was lifted off of your shoulders
because you are being proactive in your life.
You are taking charge and you are taking control of something that is only within your power to really affect the outcome. And as I said to you earlier before we started the episode,
I wish you peace. I wish you strength. I want you to be surrounded by love and
I want you to lean into the people who love and support you when times get really really hard and
It is my hope that the people who love and support you have people who can
They can lean on when the times get really really hard and to be more present in the moment
And that's something that I tell clients who are facing life
limiting conditions all the time to be present, but also
ensure that they leave any sort of loose ends tied up because
what you don't want to do is leave the people you love a mess
that they're going to have to clean up.
I'm Wilson and I'm on your same page. Thank you. Thank you.
You're most welcome, Erin. Thank you so much for your time,
Veronica. Erin, I know this is a lot and there are other things that you want to chat about. I want
to go through saving for healthcare costs and what to do with your retirement contributions. I know
you wanted to dig into that a little bit more, But I know we've already done a lot. So
I'm just going to pause and I'm going to send you some of these thoughts when we connect offline and help you get these
documents together. You have not heard the last of me. So I'm going to connect with you after this offline privately.
Until then, I don't want to be a broken record, but I
just want to say thank you again for coming on. This conversation means the world to me.
You are just my hero. I think you are absolutely incredible. And I'm so, so grateful that you
slipped into my DMs.
Thank you so much, Nicole.
I am so grateful to Erin for sharing her story with me, with us. I wanted to do something
to thank her. And I reached out to the CEO of a company
called Trust and Will to get all of her paperwork taken care of at no cost. I really wanted
to make sure that I could do whatever I could in my power to make sure that she's taken
care of on the rest of this journey. This is not a sponsored episode by any means, but
if Erin's story has inspired you to get your documents in order for yourself, for a loved one, I've linked that resource in the show notes.
What stayed with me most is Erin's deep thoughtfulness. Not just in how she's navigating
her diagnosis, but in how she's thinking ahead for the people she loves. Again and
again she said she wanted to tell her story so that other women get screened for breast cancer. She wanted to create a trust so that her husband and her mom would be protected.
This isn't what processing a diagnosis looks like for everyone, of course, and that is
okay. But what really blows me away about Erin is how she's thinking about these steps
as kind of a love letter to her family. And we don't normally think about estate planning
as a love letter or as kindness. We think of it as tactical and legal and strategic, a box
to check and not a fun one at that. But Erin reminded me, and hopefully she reminded you,
that planning can be an act of love. Erin's story is so powerful, and I hope you carry
it with you the next time you're faced with a hard conversation, a tough decision, or paperwork you've been putting off. Because behind
all of it, there is a deeper question. What does it mean to take care of the people we
love? Well, Erin just gave us a beautiful answer.
Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Money
Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need
some Money Rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions,
moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or
even have a one-on-one intervention with me and follow us on Instagram at MoneyNews and TikTok at MoneyNewsNetwork for exclusive video
content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for
investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.