Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - In Defense of Karens

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

Extra Special Guest (and Nicole's partner's mom) Soni retells what happened when Nicole inspired her to negotiate… well, just about everything. She also shares what can happen when you stand up for yourself, and why we should reconsider our stance on Karens. To be totally crystal-clear - we’re not talking about the version of “the Karen” that's been illustrated as a white woman who weaponizes her privilege to cause the BIPOC community harm. Today, we’re talking about the version of a Karen who walks around in platform flip-flops, who asks for the manager, and has THE haircut, you know, the Karen. That Karen… may not be all that bad. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time. I will take a check. Like an old school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin. Remember I said in our very first episode how negotiating can be addicting?

Well, today I'm talking to a money rehabber who listened to that episode and negotiated and then negotiated and then negotiated some more. She definitely caught the negotiating bug. And while I thought we were just going to chat about negotiating strategy, our conversation actually turned into a really interesting discussion on how negotiating for what you deserve can be really empowering and why being a Karen isn't all that bad. And for our purposes here, I want to be super clear about what sort of Karen we're talking about. The Karen figure is sometimes tied with Amy Cooper types, white women who weaponize their privilege to cause BIPOC community harm.

That is not what we're talking about here. We have nothing to say to defend those types of women. Fuck them. Today, we're actually sticking with the version of a Karen who walks around in platform flip-flops, who asks for the manager and the haircut. You know, the Karen haircut. So without further ado, Sunny, welcome to Money Rehab. And can you tell everyone how we know each other? Well, let's see. I'm very, very fortunate that Nicole has come into my life because I'm looking for not only icons and mentors who are older than I am, but also the icons and the mentors who are younger than I am. So I consider, first of all, that she's come into

my life as an incredible role model as far as what women are doing and can do. You're going to make me cry, Sunny. And secondly, is that Nicole is going with my son, who I feel like I need to pat myself on the back for having very good taste and having parented him correctly. That is right. And I love that he is number two and not number one. He's used to that already.

He knows. And I have to say, some days, most days, I love you so much for birthing him and bringing him to this world. Some days I don't like you very much. I know, seriously. You got to take the blame with the credit. Thank you so much for saying that you like the show. I've been so, so loving all of your messages about money rehab.

Thank you. I think the whole idea of rehab is such an interesting one. At the beginning, I was kind of like, not that I was a skeptic, but I was, okay, is there something really that I can learn? As it's turned out right from the get-go, we were talking about negotiating. There was a lot I could learn. Absolutely. I am so surprised because I thought you knew everything. I don't like other people to believe, but just between the two of us. Yeah, just between us girls. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what did you learn?

Well, it was interesting because the first segment that I listened to was on negotiating. And I do a lot of negotiating. I thought I did enough, but right off the bat, I had not thought about negotiating or renegotiating telephone and streaming services. And so I did go back and do that. And then I had a problem with AT&T, but I was really kind of like supercharged when I spoke with them. And I felt that I was paying too much for what was basically something that was innocuous service. And after a period of time of negotiating, as you had indicated, indicating right away from the get-go

that I was a longtime customer, which I am, a very patient person, which I'm so-so, that this is why I thought it was unfair and what could they do to make me happier. Otherwise, there are other carriers that I could use. Then what happened? I'm like at the edge of my seat. Oh, I know. Seriously, this is intense stuff. This is what gets your adrenaline going. This is why I don't need to drink coffee. I just, you know, live off of my own adrenaline. We went back and forth. And the person I was talking to, I always give credit to the people who are on the lower level, as far as decision making is concerned, that I understand that, you know, you represent AT&T, but you can't make decisions for them? Is there someone I can talk to who can? And I appreciate all of your service. And I understand that you brought me as far as you can go, but I need to speak to someone else now and I appreciate your help. So I went to the next level and I was able to get a negotiated solo. Yay! I'm so, so excited to hear that story. And also it's way nicer than I think I would have been.

Well, you know what I have learned though, and this is from my own negotiated limited, though it may be, is I'll always start out by saying something positive. I've been happy with your service. Now, very, very polite, very professional. However, and then I had the however, and then that transitions to the next part where I'm not happy. I am complaining, but I like to preface it it a prologue to be with a you know compliment and I have found that when I've had really good service I do I do like to command the person and I'll talk to a manager commanding the the representative that I've spoken with so I do I do try to balance it out I'm not just there there, you know, assaulting the barricades.

It sounds like you give a compliment sandwich. Exactly. Exactly. I love that. And you also negotiated your home association fee. Yes. I've had an ongoing problem with a homeowner's association, which they're what they do. We don't have any type of facilities. We don't have a pool. We don't have any type of facilities we don't have a pool we don't have anything like that so it's just landscaping and other um very nebulous functions that they perform including having a patrol person who needs to get a life at his patrolling very very seriously i mean

i feel like we're just like an inch away from being a military patrol so i've had mailbox infractions and i've had lawn infractions and now various things that have really stretched. But I've run into problems with them as far as the billing is concerned and overcharges when they had been very, very slow

to send the billing out, billing information out. And finally, I just had had it. I was still in my negotiated settlement mode. And I go, I'll be more than happy to pay my bills on time. But you tell me when that time is. So I need to have a bill to say you owe money. Not to say you owed money, past tense, but the all money present tense with enough room to allow me time to get it in a timely fashion. Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls.

Money rehab will be right back. Now for some more money rehab. And something we were talking about this past week was the idea of the Karen and how she's come up into the zeitgeist. This was not a thing when you were growing up, right? No, not at all. I come from a generation of women who I was caught in between. I mean, I was encouraged to go to school. I thought everybody went all the way through their bachelor's degree. And then the first discretionary move was whether you're going to go to graduate school and how long. So I came from that, but there was still an understanding that you have to continue to be quote unquote ladylike, whatever that meant. It was some big nebulous term. And for the most part,

I was able to avoid it, but I do see in trying to work through being very proactive, and this is how the topic of the Karens came up, that proactivity oftentimes goes into conflict with the whole rise of the Karenisms. And I think that this is something that's very, very difficult to look at because on one hand, we're hearing a message to all of us, but to women specifically, be proactive, be independent, be preemptive. But on the other hand, don't be a Karen. And what is a Karen? Oftentimes a Karen is someone who is proactive and who says, let me speak to your manager. And that's a great Karen line. Let's

face it. A Karen line is let me speak to your manager. And I'm going, well, wait a minute, now we're getting caught. I cannot hear the message, but our younger people, younger women who are trying to go, are they getting the message that this is not a good thing? Particularly if you're a millennial or Gen Z-er, that this is a bad thing, that a Karenism. I was listening to one of my favorite comics. Joe and I went to an outdoor comedy to see Eliza Schlesinger. If you are listening for any reason, please come on the show. Please.

Pretty please. She was going to the defense of Karen. She was saying when you call somebody a Karen, what you mean is that they are aggressive or not even aggressive, assertive, know what they want, ask for what they want, stand their ground. And these are great qualities. Exactly. Exactly. So how does it become such a pejorative? But I don't think, I think the subtext of it is a commentary to women. I mean, what is a male counterpart to care? That is such a good question. I don't know. I thought it was Chad, but it's not the same connotation.

Oh, no. Not everybody, but most people now, if you talk about don't be a Karen, they'll know exactly what you're talking about. If you say don't be a Chad, I don't know if they would get it. I think that there's a very subtle message that's seeping in there that is contrary to the commentary that you're trying to provide. I know you were very, very young when you had Joe, who's 41. Oh, yes. I want you to know this gray hair comes from my clients, not from the genetic process or aging at all. I love it. And it's very in right now. So you are before the trend. In your generation, when you were coming of age, was asking for what you want in these negotiating situations, whether it's bill collectors or homeowners association or for a raise?

And I also went after my pest control. See what you've done to me? You've made me an absolute nuisance in my financial neighborhood. Yay! I love this so much. The more and more we talk about it, the more and more we're finding out you're negotiating. It's like a nesting doll of negotiations. In your generation, was that frowned upon or was it just not done or talked about? liver. I mean, he was just, he was the one who's who just set the design. I saw him in relationship to both my mother and to me as being someone who felt that women should have equal voice. So I really wasn't an issue until the leader and I got married. And I felt like, okay, I can continue a very independent dialogue. And there were many contractors, there are many people who came out who did not want to hear from me. They wanted to talk to my husband. I don't know if it was a generation or just what I, the little enclave in,

in California, but where the, the woman defers to her husband and I'm going like, no, no, no, no, no. First of all, my husband at that time was not the slightest bit interested. His, His motto was, you take care of it, which was fine by me. And the other part was that I really had to work through a model of masculine resistance in the trades. So it sounds like you, and I know you're not speaking for your entire generation, but perhaps a lot of women of that generation might have Karens bottled up inside them. Sounds like you were shushed for many, many years or nobody wanted to negotiate with you or even talk to you about money. I think that to a degree, you're right. I think that there's, I still see somewhat of a patronizing

attitude amongst people in the financial industry dealing with a woman specifically without any, you know, do you want to discuss this with anybody else? I go, no, I definitely make the decisions independently, obviously with the information that they're going to be providing, but I'm also going to be asking questions. That I think, even when I was married, I didn't have a traditional marriage. It was a two-person decision and discussion decision. It just definitely, for the most part,

my husband was not interested in anything to do with home or any of the other decisions. So I just did it on my own, which was fine for me. I think that's why our marriage lasted as long as it did, because we didn't get into each other's way. So I think I got this paradigm all wrong. I am not the one that's going to come to your rescue. You, Sunny, are going to come to my rescue if for some reason I get stuck on my negotiations. I'll be like, let me tell you, you don't want to escalate this within our family because it's not going to work out well for you. But I think that you started making and helping me be more sensitive to rather than just taking things for granted. I think there would have been a time where I just would have tossed the bill aside and go,

well, you know, I'll give them a call. Don't ever do that again. You know, or with Amazon go, oh, well, once I know that's as late as I'm not going to be able to really fight Amazon. But I think that with Amazon and with the pest control and going after the fact that they have not provided adequate communication and that's something that you should expect from these various services that you're using and I think that there's a lot for I mean that one message I think is the most important is that we we should look to messages that other people can provide and keep our ears open to be able to listen and to hear

like two very, very important qualities, different, but important. I mean, you have two ears and one mouth, so it's sometimes more important to listen more than you talk. Here's a tip from Sunny you can take straight to the bank. Don't be embarrassed to ask for what you deserve. It may feel a little uncomfortable or awkward at first, but speaking up can also boost confidence. It's hard not to feel like a badass when you see those numbers in your bank account go up and up and up. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartMedia. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Catherine Law. Money Rehab is edited and engineered by Brandon Dickert with help from Josh Fisher.

Executive producers are Mangesh Hatikadur and Will Pearson. Huge thanks to the OG Money Rehab supervising producer, Michelle Lanz, for her pre-production and development work. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.