Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Miscarriage Leave Update with Senator Tammy Duckworth

Episode Date: May 8, 2022

Originally Aired October 5th, 2021. In a prior episode, Nicole spoke about the importance of employers implementing a miscarriage leave policy after going through a miscarriage herself. In this follow-up episode, Nicole speaks with Senator Tammy Duckworth on the Support Through Loss Act, legislation providing for paid time off after the loss of pregnancy, or other challenges to starting a family. Plus, Nicole talks with her partner Joe Sanberg about their experience taking time off after their miscarriage, and how he implemented miscarriage leave at his company. If you’d like to sign Nicole’s petition urging companies to offer miscarriage leave, click here: https://www.change.org/p/businesses-companies-need-to-have-miscarriage-leave If you'd like to learn how to get in touch with your local representative to talk about the Support Through Loss Act, click here: https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin. A few months ago, I published an episode on the hidden cost of miscarriage after experiencing a miscarriage myself. At the time, I talked about the importance of private companies offering employees miscarriage leave in their health care policies. And since that episode aired, I was really excited to see that Senator Duckworth, a Democratic representative from Illinois, had been working on legislation that would create federal policy for paid miscarriage leave. And I had the honor of speaking with her about that legislation. Here's our conversation. Senator Duckworth, welcome to Money Rehab.

It's good to be on. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. You're such a trailblazer when it comes to advocating for women. This legislation that we're going to be talking about today is not the first imprint, of course, you've made on issues of reproductive health. You're the first senator to give birth while holding office, and you pushed to change the Senate rolls to allow your newborn on the floor while you voted. Honestly, the picture of you on the Senate floor with your newborn gives me goosebumps every single time I see it. Thank you. Well, I wasn't trying to be

the first of anything. I was just trying to do my job. And in the Senate, you have to show up to vote. And so you can't vote, you know, you can't vote it in. You actually have to physically be there. So 10 days after Miley was born, I had to come to the floor to vote. Well, you've been such an advocate for working women like you who have just had a baby, but also working women who have just lost one. For listeners who might not know, can you explain the Support Through Loss Act? Yes. So it's a piece of legislation that I wrote in conjunction with one of my staff members. I asked my staff to come up with ideas or passion projects for themselves. This was her passion

project. Because unfortunately, like me, she also suffered a miscarriage and she said, we need to fix this. And so what the bill does requires employers to provide paid three days of leave for workers to process a pregnancy loss, an unsuccessful assisted reproductive procedure, a loss of surrogacy, a loss of a foster child, a loss of a adoption, a failed adoption process. And it just basically recognizes that people need to go through a grieving process and to force them to come back to work the very next day, or in some cases, the same day that they've had a miscarriage, for example, is really inhumane. And it doesn't even make sense. It's counterproductive. I 100% agree with you. Earlier this year,

I had a miscarriage and my partner and I worked for ourselves. So we were able to take the time off, but we were so struck by how many people can't, as you mentioned. I did an episode about miscarriage leave and I started a petition for CEOs and founders and business owners. My partner is the co-founder actually of a fintech company. And he was the first to sign it. He actually told his co-founder

that based on my experience, they should have a miscarriage leave policy. And his co-founder only then shared that his wife also had a miscarriage experience and said, of course, we should have this. How did we not think about this before? I mean, is that what this is? No one thinks about it until they have to. Right. And some people also think, well, don't you have sick leave time for that? Well, not all sick leave time actually covers this. And in the case of a failed IVF procedure, for example, a lot of times people have used up all their sick leave going through IVF and a failed IVF procedure or a medical diagnosis that affects your ability to get pregnant.

All of these things are devastating and people deserve the time to process. And this needs to be available to everyone. So yes, as a woman who suffers a, you know, a miscarriage, it is devastating, but it is also devastating for families who are, you know, on the cusp of adopting someone and the adoption falls through or for the spouse, you know, it's just as devastating for the person who's not the one carrying the baby to go through as well. So we need to recognize that making people come back to work the same day or the next day, it doesn't even make sense because they're not going to be productive. Let's just give them the time to grieve and process what they're going through. And then when they come back to work, they'll

be productive and ready to focus on their jobs. But in the meantime, let's be humane. That's right. And I didn't even realize until I went through it that there is this gray area between bereavement and sick leave and PTO. And a lot of women don't talk about it for the fear of miscarriage in those early months. Honestly, do you think this is something that can be done on a government level like New Zealand, of course, did? Or is this also incumbent on the private sector to step up? Well, I think it's both. I think it can be done at the federal level, which is why I'm trying to do it now.

But I also think this private sector right now can step up, right? There's nothing preventing businesses from coming forward and just giving this as a benefit to the employees right now. So I hope that as many private employers as possible would think about doing this. The bill also has two other components to it. One is a research component. It sets aside $45 million annually for the National Institutes of Health to do research into miscarriage and pregnancy loss. The third component of the bill is to have the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control, the CDC, develop and disseminate public information on pregnancy loss. Because I just remember being in my doctor's office after he said, well, there was a heartbeat at six weeks,

and now at nine weeks, there's no heartbeat, you've lost your baby. And I'm grieving. And yet he's saying, because he's trying to keep me upbeat and say, it's okay. You can go through another IVF circle. Women lose babies all the time. This is a common thing. 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. A lot of times you don't even know about it. It's natural. It's normal. I didn't think, I didn't feel that it was natural and normal. My heart was broken. And so to even get information out so that people understand pregnancy laws, I think is really important as well. Thank you for being such a champion of doing that. My heart was broken as well. Do you feel

like we just needed someone like you to care about this enough? Doesn't seem like there should be opposition to this, but is there? There's always folks who are like, It doesn't seem like there should be opposition to this, but is there? You know, there's always folks who are like, oh, it's too expensive. Oh, if you want to take time off, then you should put away your own time off. And then there's all of that. But most people, when I talk to about this, understand it and understand that this is something that has been overlooked for too long. And so I'm making sure that I work on this in all aspects, both through federal legislation and not just in one way. I'm making sure that I'm introducing the bill both as a standalone bill, but then also as part of any type of a package that have to do with supporting our families, whether it's paid family leave or health care.

I'm trying to attach it to as many pieces of legislation as possible to give it the best chance of passing. as possible to give it the best chance of passing. But then it's also just the educational component as well to talk to business leaders and the like to say, hey, you need to cover this. This will be good for your workers. Absolutely. And you've used this legislation as an example of why diversity is so important in Congress. Can you explain to us what you mean by that? Well, when I came to Congress, when I first joined the House of Representatives, my focus areas were the military, because I'm a military veteran, armed services, and the VA. That was my area of specialty and international economic relationships. And I, as a woman, as a progressive woman, a democratic woman, I always supported things like, you know, paid family leave, and those were things that I supported. But it wasn't until

I went through it that I understand how critically important this was. And that's why I think it's really important to have diversity in all the halls of power, whether it is the halls of Congress or the C-suites of corporations or the offices within the Pentagon. As long as those places don't look as diverse and don't reflect the American people, then we will all have a voice. And so it wasn't until I became a mom and was trying to breastfeed in airports that I realized that there was no good place for me to breastfeed or to express breast milk. I mean, I literally was told, go plug your breast pump into the outlet there next to the guys that are charging my cell phones.

And so, you know, until I became a mom, I never thought of that. And because I lived that experience, I passed the legislation. And so now when you go through airports and you see, you know, breastfeeding rooms and the like, for those moms who want to express breast milk in private, that's because I lived with that experience. And that's because I was in a place that I could do it. So we need more women and women of childbearing age in corporate C-suites, in the Pentagon offices, and in the halls of Congress. Amen. Our listeners are very passionate about this issue. What can they do to support your

legislation? How can they help? Well, several things. The first thing you can do is reach out to your congressperson and your senator and talk to them about supporting this legislation and signing on to it. Congresswoman Presley has this in the House and I have it in the Senate. So reach out to your representative and your senators and say, hey, you need to sign on and you need to support this and vote for this. You can also talk to your state legislators and your governors about this as well. And you can also reach out to the White House. You go to the White House and if they get enough requests for this, I think the policy at the White House, I think it's like they get a hundred thousand requests. They actually have to put it on their Web page. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it.

Get a petition out to them. Yeah. Yeah. This is a priority. I know President Biden supports this as I've had conversations with both he and Dr. Biden about it. Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money rehab will be right back. Now for some more money rehab. Senator Duckworth spoke about the role of government, but I felt that the private sector can also make a difference. So I wanted to talk to someone who has implemented miscarriage leave into their workplace. So I asked Joe Sandberg to come on the show. It was a pretty easy commute for him to the pod closet because we live together. Hello, Joe. Hi.

So, Joe, I mentioned this to the senator, but can you talk a little bit about what policy you started at your company Aspiration and why? where all women of all backgrounds and all income levels can enjoy the miscarriage leave that they deserve and need. It's going to require government action at the federal and state levels. At Aspiration, we now have miscarriage leave so that someone who's experienced miscarriage can take off as much time as they need. And why wasn't there a miscarriage leave before? Unfortunately, a lot of companies, including ours, hadn't considered the moral necessity of it. And I think one of the reasons why this issue requires governmental action is that we can't rely on businesses whose executives have some personal experience with miscarriage to implement miscarriage leave. We have to have a society-wide policy that emanates from federal and state governments. society-wide policy that emanates from federal and state governments.

That you and your co-founder didn't even know you didn't have one or that you needed one until you had your own personal experiences. That's exactly the point is it can't be left to the personal experiences of individual executives to adopt these policies. As it stands now, it's not required by law to have miscarriage leave. Therefore, a lot of companies who think they're doing the right thing, who think they're providing the most wholesome benefits legally required, aren't doing so. And you and I figured this out firsthand. I mean, I don't wish we did, but that taking the day off, taking a few days off was really helpful. Absolutely. Women should be able to take off as much time as they need to deal with the experience of miscarriage. How do you feel like this will help women in the workplace? Well, first of all, it humanizes the workplace.

Unfortunately, our economy has evolved to a place where we treat human beings like widgets and extensions of machines instead of people who have dignity and are created with purpose and love. And when someone is experiencing a health crisis, which a miscarriage is, they deserve the time to handle that health situation as well as the emotional dynamics that come with it. But unfortunately, the modern economy in which we live isn't one that honors the humanity of workers. And where that falls the hardest is on low-income people who don't have the luxury of

taking time off because they're living paycheck to paycheck. And one day of missed pay can be the difference between their ability to make rent and not make rent, which is why we have to have paid miscarriage leave that's mandated by the federal government and is the law of the nation. So it should be at the federal government level, the state level, and the private sector level, like all four? Well, ideally, it would be at the federal government level, the state level, and the private sector level, like all five. Well, ideally, it would be at the federal government level so that it's the law of the nation, and that transcends state law. But until we can have federal law that mandates it across the country, we can settle for state-by-state progress where states mandate it within their own boundaries. boundaries. For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. You shouldn't have to go through a miscarriage or pregnancy loss to care about what happens to people after one. I'd strongly,

strongly urge you to stand up and make some change. We all can. In today's show notes, I linked two resources. First, a link that will help you reach out to your local officials and elected representatives like Senator Duckworth suggested. Second, a link to my change.org petition through miscarriageleave.com. And remember, sometimes the most important time to make your voice heard is when you're speaking up for someone else. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli.

Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson. Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team, Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.