Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Pro Tips for Selling Your House with Jon Grauman of Netflix's Buying Beverly Hills

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

There's a wealth of advice out there for homebuyers. But what about sellers? Nicole sits down with Jon Grauman of Netflix's Buying Beverly Hills to talk through how to avoid the most common mistakes people make when selling their house. Plus, Jon answers a question that has been nagging at homeowners: are we nearing the end of the seller's market?

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I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. Real estate is always a hot topic, but with all of the changes to interest rates, this is a topic that is red hot right now. So I wanted to call up John Grauman. He is one of the smartest real estate agents I've ever met, slash star of Buying Beverly Hills on Netflix. Today, we leave no stone unturned and tackle the big topics going on right now in real estate on both the buyer's side and the seller's side.

So no matter what your real estate perspective is right now, this episode is for you. John Grauman, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Can't wait to dig into all things real estate. I feel like on the show, and we're guilty of that too, we focus more on buying a house, right? Like the seller doesn't get as much love. Can we give the seller a little love in this episode? Can we give the seller a little love? Sure, we can give them a little love. They give me a lot of hell, but we can give them a little love. Sure. So let's say somebody is thinking about selling their home. We can talk about whether or not that's a good move or not in this economy. What would be your first advice to them?

I mean, to your point, you know, is that a good move? That's a very specific and frankly, a very personal question. The reality is there's always going to be life events that necessitate the buying and selling of real estate, right? Whether it's unfortunately in some instances, a divorce, a death, a job relocation. We just had a third kid and we were short on bedrooms. My kid just got transferred to a different school. So there's always life events that necessitate that. When to buy or sell is largely in part for most people based on those life events, not

trying to time the market. I agree. Let's say that louder for the folks in the back. Don't try to time the market. Don't try to time the market. Yeah. A house is in some cases a good investment. It doesn't mean it's always a good investment. So it's, well, we can get into that. Yeah. I would say historically it's proven to be the best investment over a long period of time. But that's a really important point.

Correct. Over time. Over time. Even if you bought a house on the eve of the Great Depression, within seven years, you have recouped and gone back up in value. Over seven years, real estate has always gone up historically in the United States. Inflation adjusted. But sometimes people forget about the inflation. Even in the last five recessions, with the exception of the 2008 recession, real estate has gone up. So there's a lot of misconceptions about a recession versus a housing crisis. They're two very different things.

We're not in a housing crisis. We are in a recession, but not a housing crisis. Do you think we will be in another housing crisis? No. Well, will at some point in the future. My crystal balls are working today. Looking to your housing crystal ball now. Yeah, it's not working today. But are we in one right now? Absolutely not. No, it's so hot. I mean, I've gone to open houses in LA. Lines are around the block.

Yeah. Like, what are you guys giving away for free here? We're in a housing reversion. We're in a housing stabilization. I came up with a lot of creative clever words to use. But the reality is, yeah, it's not a housing crisis. The market is trying to correct itself. And it's long overdue for one.

We were in the longest bull market in the country's history. And, you know, we got hit with the confluence of events that we'll probably never see again in history, right? I don't know that we're ever going to see a global pandemic, right, tied with- Zero interest rates. Zero interest rates, which then gave way to obviously hyperinflation, the highest inflation we've seen in over 40 years,

then into a rising interest rate environment, coupled with a backlog supply chain, coupled with so many different other factors and variables that led to where we are. The last two years of COVID were sort of an anomaly. The market is trying to correct itself right now. And what's the inventory situation like? See, this is why you have the show, because that's the smart question. Honestly, it's the question most people don't ask. That's the smart question. It's an inventory issue. That's all it is. And that, so I'll put it to you guys this way. Supply and demand, basics.

Every industry is at the mercy of supply and demand. Real estate's no different. So I'll put it to you this way. In theory, interest rates are meant to sort of have a teeter-totter effect, right? As interest rates go up, people's purchasing power goes down, and thus, so should home prices. What's perplexing people right now is why haven't prices gone down, right? Interest rates shot up last year, the highest spike we've ever seen ever in a full, in a year, but prices have held steady. And the reason for that is that the vast majority of

homeowners, it's estimated 35 to 40% of homeowners refinanced in those two years during COVID. And they refinanced into historically low interest rates at very comfortable, very low payments that they don't want to trade out of, right? So what there is is sort of a stranglehold, if you will, on the inventory. And even though there are less buyers in the market by virtue of higher interest rates, there's even fewer amounts of inventory in the market. And that's helped to stabilize home prices, right? Look, real estate's a commodity like anything else. What happens when there's less of any commodity?

Its value goes up. Yeah. Or in this case, it stabilizes. So this is important to really underscore, the seesaw effect of interest rates and prices. Right now, it's like this. It's like a plank. Feels like both are high still. Yeah. I mean, again, there are, look, what we saw happen in the last eight months is the volume of transactions went down, which makes perfect sense. There's fewer buyers in the market because many buyers just got priced out. The value of homes didn't really come down. It's just the volume of transactions. And they came down steeply.

I'm talking, again, about 40% in LA. That's not insignificant, right? We were carrying, my group, my team, on average, 35, 40 escrows at a time. And that got cut in half. Now, we're picking back up again, which I'm happy to report that the last few weeks we've seen a measurable uptick in the level of activity, showings, offers written, escrows open, mortgage applications taken. I mean, a really significant uptick. So right now, and all you can really do with this market is analyze it day by day, week by week. Right now, I'm feeling pretty bullish about where we're headed. And if somebody is thinking they missed the hot time to sell their house, do you think they did? It's not the market that it was a year and a half ago, but no, speaking to the point I was saying earlier, there's an inventory issue. We don't have enough of it. So coming on right now,

while perhaps a year and a half ago, there was more inventory available. I would say that your property is potentially a little bit more valuable today. It just has to be in line with what market values are today. Right. And that's the problem is a lot of people just, you know, choose to be sort of tone deaf to what the market is telling them. And a lot of times people just need to hear that deafening silence of the market. They kind of have to hear they have to swing and swing and strike out multiple times before they're willing to accept the reality. And that reality is that the market dictates what your home is worth. Not this homeowner doesn't. And I certainly don't as much as they want me to. And as much as they want to, there's only one fundamental truth in real estate,

which is a business that is so subjective. It is the classic one person's trash is another person's treasure, right? How many homes you walked into? It was like, Oh my God, who would live here? Someone would. And they love it. It's their gem. It's super subjective.

The only fundamental truth is that the market will dictate what it's worth. So the comps of the area and also the macro economy. Is that what you're talking about when you talk about the market dictating it? Yeah. Look, the comps are meant to give you a roadmap, right? They're meant to give you some bumpers and borders. You know, you want to look at the comps. And in a city like LA, comps are really tough because it's not a city of track homes.

You can have a 2,000 square foot house next to a 10,000 square foot house. You can have a modern next to a traditional. You can have a view next to a flag lot. You can have a 2000 square foot house next to a 10,000 square foot house. You can have a modern next to a traditional, you could have a view next to a flag lot. You can have all different things and trying to make varying adjustments, which in and of itself is subjective, is hard in terms of looking at like, how does mine stand up to this? And I've found after doing this for almost 20 years, homes are like people's kids and no one thinks their child is ugly, right. That's just, that's just the truth of the matter. Right. So having that conversation where you're looking at the

comps going, you know, the hope is that the comps guide that person to what is a logical conclusion. Doesn't always work that way. Sometimes they look and go, well, hold on a second. My home is way better than that. It's like, wipe off the screen. Are we looking at the same house? Like it's tough. Cause you started out by saying that the sellers can give you hell. I did say that. Yeah. I stand behind it. Let's double click on that. Yeah. What kind of hell do they give you? Is it just like digging your heels in on a price that you will not budge from and saying, Hey, I don't need to do this. It would be nice to sell it for a certain price, but I'm not compromising on that. Does

that feel like hell to you? No. No, I would break that out into a couple of different things. So one is certainly that part of it, just having an unrealistic expectation on price. I remember I had a listing in Beverly Hills priced in like the mid twenties, overpriced. I had all the data and analytics to support that it was overpriced and my client an international gentleman who isn't here very often when he was here and i had an audience with him i had my like 30 60 second elevator pitch down pat was like this is why it's overpriced these are the stats that is this is irrefutable and he listened and he looked at me and he goes yeah the thing is i don't really want to sell.

And I was like, okay, I don't have an intelligent argument for that. Like, what am I supposed to say to that? So that can be frustrating, but it's really the, I think the core of that question comes down to oftentimes sort of joke about this. But like with any joke, there's a semblance of truth in it. Oftentimes, like the worst in humanity comes out in like times of war and then times of home buying and selling. I know that sounds melodramatic, but the reality is it is such an emotional process because it's your home, it's your baby, whether it's something you're buying or something that you're parting with. It is so emotional and people don't give enough weight to that. The seemingly most logical, sensible, reasonable, rational people you've ever

met will lose their effing minds when they're buying and selling houses. That's just the truth. It just is. Well, I love how data-driven and analytical you are. If a listener is thinking about selling their home and they don't have you in their corner, what would you tell them to do first before listing? Fire their agent and hire me. Um, no, in all seriousness, like when I sit with a prospective client and I'm sitting in their living room or dining room, you know, one of the things I will typically say is look, whether you choose to work with me or somebody else, you know, if I'm you, if I'm sitting in your shoes and I mean this in all sincerity, what I would be thinking about is, you know, is this, does this person have experience,

right? I want to make sure I'm not this person's guinea pig. Is this someone I can trust? Because it's really a short-term marriage of sorts. You're going to be talking a lot every day. And is this someone that I can trust has my best interests at heart? Those are the three qualifying things that I would look for above all else if I was sitting on the other side of the table interviewing an agent. And what about when thinking about a price? What are the factors?

When thinking about a price, I would say that pricing a home is more about strategy than it is certainty. And that's tough for a lot of people because certainty is the one thing everybody wants in life and in listing your home. They just want certainty. And that goes back to, well, what dictates value? It's not you, and it's not me, and it's not a Zestimate. So what is it? It's the market, right? The market has a really precise way of determining value. If you think about it from this perspective, a property comes on the market, and there's

a pool of buyers out there that are looking, all independent of one another. They are either going to collectively decide that that is a good value and that they're going to all come in with multi and it's going to create a multiple offer situation or that it's not a good value and there's not gonna be no offers on it. These people aren't going out on Sunday and then coming home and comparing notes at night. This is just a collective consensus, right? So the market has a precise way of just figuring that out on its own. So I would say, look at the comps, listen to your realtor, but then decide what your strategy is, right? You have basically three basic strategies.

One is, and this is what a lot of developers do, is, you know, I think I have the best house in town, the best house on the block, or the best house in the neighborhood, and I want to shoot for the moon because we're going to break the record. Okay, great. If you shoot and miss, just know that you're going to be chasing the market downward playing defense when you want to be playing offense and in a more reactionary position. Second option is to look at the comps, try to analyze it and just get within like, you know, three to 5% of a strike price, right? You just want to try to hit the nail on the head. And then the third option, which is what became very popular in the last few years is what we call sort of auction based pricing, right? We think the comps support a value around here. We're going to purposely

underprice it by 10% to elicit multiple offers. That's going to create a bidding war and the bidding war is going to drive the price upward. Okay. Let's talk more about that because that was the impetus for reaching out to you. I was reading an article in the LA Times about underpricing homes and getting more people to show up because they think it's a deal. And then ultimately it will trade or sell for much higher than that, closer to where sort of the fair market value would be, or even higher than that because of this like emotional bidding war that happens. Can you explain the philosophy behind that? Sure. There's a science behind real estate. There's a science in any kind of

selling. And a lot of that is psychology. And let's go back to what I said before. Buying a home is an emotional process, right? If you were on the listing side, you want to try to play to that. You want to try to evoke that emotion. You want to sort of pluck at the heartstrings. And the reality is people will oftentimes compromise their own self-imposed limitations once they become emotionally attached. So someone says, my budget's a million dollars. I can't spend more than a million dollars. If it's a million dollars and a nickel, I walk. Okay. Until it's priced at 990 and then they get emotionally attached and they start envisioning themselves living there. And then they get a counter and then what's an extra five grand and then what's an extra 10.

And Oh God, can I stretch 10, 15 more? People get swept up in the emotion of it. So the idea is to try to engage that many people, create a sense of competition, which competition for the seller creates or rather equates to leverage. And that was sort of the idea behind it. Now, again, it was like shooting fish in a barrel, you know, the last couple of years over COVID. So it was just easy to do that. That's a little bit more challenging

today because as I said, fewer buyers in the market, volume of transactions has gone down. So you have to be a lot more methodical, a lot more thoughtful about how you price your home. Yeah. I mean, there's a different perception and I am an amateur and you'll forget more than I will ever know. I do enjoy looking at housing porn all the time. Who doesn't? The best. But when you look at like the history, it just, when you look at the history, it sometimes shocks me when the prices go down precipitously. And I'm like, well, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that house? Like it went from one price and down hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's been on the market for 111 days. Like, what's wrong with it? So, okay, really good point.

And that goes back to, if you remember I was saying the strategies, that's the first strategy, right? You're gonna price it kind of just hoping for, you know, aiming for the stars. But if you miss, you're chasing it downward. And the problem with that and the way real estate has changed so much

in the last, let's say, decade or so is we used to be the gatekeepers, right? If you wanted information about a home, you had to come through one of us. Today, all you need is a stable internet connection, right? It's readily available for anyone. And there's such transparency that comes with that in terms of the days on market and the price reductions and when it was reduced and so forth. So if a property is sat too long, and we can define that by any period of time 30 days 60 90 people start to question what's wrong with it and then they start to draw conclusions and form judgments and opinions

that may or may not be true they may or not be have any basis in reality it doesn't matter because it's all in their head and the seller or the listing agent doesn't have an opportunity to refute or rebut that because it's just in their head so they could be coming up and look our heads can be a very scary place you start coming up with all different reasons and excuses of why this hasn't sold and it must be mold. And oh my God, the house, the, I'm sure the roof is caving in. Who knows? How did you know I was thinking? That's the problem. And that's why I try to explain to sellers is people, there is this notion of, well, it doesn't hurt to ask. Actually, yes, it does. That doesn't apply to real estate applies to other things in life that doesn't hurt to ask. Actually, yes, it does. That doesn't apply to real estate. It applies to other things in life. That doesn't apply to real estate. It does hurt if you ask too high and miss.

It's a great, great point because you're really going out with all of the apps and Zillow and Compass and Redfin and all that. You're like doing a pulse check of prospective buyers all the time. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And you get feedback right away. Yes. And because, again, everyone has such access to the information, you know, you're dealing with oftentimes a very savvy pool of buyers, you know, especially if they're really focused on one like little micro area, one, you know, pocket of a neighborhood, man, they're coming in, they know the comps backwards and forwards, because they are obsessively looking for something in that, you know, little geographic space. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back.

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it.

If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. And now for some more money rehab. Okay, let's move over to the buyers now.

Yes. What should I be thinking about if I'm in the market right now? What should you be thinking about if you're in the market right now? I would say first and foremost, is it the right home for you and your family? I know that sounds self-evident, right? That kind of seems like, well, yeah, that seems like sort of speaks for itself. But I think people get a little bit too fixated on trying to time the market, which we talked about earlier, on is it the right time? Is it the right investment? Where are the interest rates? And you

have to remember, you're not married to your interest rate. You're only dating it, right? When a newer, younger, sexier interest rate comes along, sorry, you can dump the higher one and then refinance into the lower one. And I think that's important for people to know is that, you know, there are going to be opportunities. I don't know precisely when, but there will be opportunities to refinance. So the question becomes, is the payment affordable to me now? Would I like are going to be opportunities. I don't know precisely when, but there will be opportunities to refinance. So the question becomes, is the payment affordable to me now? Would I like for it to be lower?

Sure. Will I have opportunities for it to be lower? Yes. When exactly? I don't know. But is it affordable to me in the short term? And is this the home that I want? How have I been looking for 12, 14, 18 months?

And is this the home that's right for me and my family? If it is, buy it. Honest to God, because I can't tell you how many clients I've thought, I've worked with rather, 18 months and is this the home that's right for me my family if it is buy it honest to god because i can't tell you how many clients i've thought i've i've worked with rather that have tried to outsmart the market and have sat on the sidelines for years while life has just passed them by and again i don't mean to sound dramatic in putting it that way but this is their life it's where they live it's where they raise their kids and they're just literally robbing themselves of those opportunities because they're trying literally robbing themselves of those opportunities

because they're trying to outsmart the market and save an extra 2% or 5%. There isn't going to be a cataclysmic event where you're going to buy something for 25% less than what it is today. That's not happening. Totally. I couldn't agree more. And also letting interest rates dictate it or like a tax write-off, which I think a lot of people think about as well. It's like the, what is the saying? The, the tail wagging the dog. It's like, you know, you don't let the interest rate tail wag your house buying dog. I don't know. We're going to go with it. I'm here for it. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm sure you are nauseated at this point by the question of like, is it a good time to buy right now? I'm sure you get it all. I get it every day and that's fine. I don't, I'm not nauseated by it.

I actually welcome it because I look, I really view myself as an advisor. I don't really sell much of anything. The reality is the homes typically sell themselves. I I'm oftentimes there to help illustrate something for someone that maybe doesn't quite have the vision to understand it or see it, but the home's either going to work for them or it's not. You know, this notion that like we can just shove a house down someone's throat, it's like it doesn't work that way. It's either speaks to them on an emotional level, speaks to them in terms on a practical level in terms of fitting the needs of their family, or it doesn't. So I welcome the opportunity to really sort of serve as an advisor. And the reality is I've talked my clients out of doing far more things than I've ever talked them into.

They'll know in their hearts whether or not it's something they should do. My job is to help guide them on why it's like, no, no, no, no. You have a blind spot here. I wouldn't do that. And where are the most common blind spots when buying? God, when buying, where is a common blind spot? That's a really good question. I can think of more examples in selling.

And in selling, it's just not being impartial. It's not being objective to really look at your home. Again, objectively, take a step back, analyze it in terms of what else is on the market, right? I sort of refer to it as if you are going through the real estate grocery store and you're going down the aisle of, you know, five to $10 million homes in Pacific Palisades, what else is on the shelf? How do I compare? How do I truly compare and distinguish myself against these others? And am I priced competitively in that respect? For buyers, I would say it's more or less what I had already said, which is just not getting so myopically focused on the investment and the timing of the market. But is it the right fit for me and my family? Is the payment affordable

to me now? And as long as someone's not saying, I'm going to buy this in an 18 months, I want to sell for a profit, then you're fine. Again, I can't predict what's going to happen the next 18 to 24 months. But if you're going to live there five to seven years, which is statistically what standard, you're fine. Even if the market goes through a correction, you're fine. I think that's a big blind spot for buyers. This idea that it's an investment and like, they're going to flip it. Like that's a whole other game. You want to flip a house and go on HGTV. That's not for everybody. Um, and so do you think that it's important to reframe out of this idea that your primary house is a good investment? I mean, we could talk about investment properties separately.

Not necessarily. It is a good investment. But, you know, it's not like... Long-term investment. Exactly. So maybe that's the difference. Exactly. Short-term versus long-term.

Yeah. If you want to go try to like, you know, I don't know, turn a quick buck, then like, you know, go deal with, you know, go sell a board ape or something like that, you know, go do it like, but you know, in real estate is a long play. And it's oftentimes, you know, a slow burn. And yes, your primary residence can serve as a great asset to you, perhaps your greatest asset in your portfolio. But that happens over time. We live in a world of such extremes today. And in the last two years, again, COVID, which was very much an anomaly, we saw appreciation that just wasn't, I don't want to say it wasn't real, because it

happened. It's certainly not sustainable. We're not going to see, you know, 35, 40% appreciation year over year. That was a very unique time for all the reasons that I already mentioned. So I think it's more a matter of people just kind of reframing their expectations and also understand that slow and steady growth is actually what we want. That's how you get to a sustainable market. Yeah. And that's a blip. Like if you zoom out, that's not the through line. That's just a little peak, right? There's this investment adage, it's time in the market, not timing the market. That's exactly right. And I think that that rings true in real estate as well. So I think when you cite a lot of these

studies about real estate being a good investment, can we emphasize that it's over time, seven plus years? Yes. Looking at big data sets. That's exactly right. Yeah. Most people that have amassed any level of wealth in real estate didn't do it overnight. They did it over decades of buying and holding or trading up, trading out 1031 exchanging, like things like that. Can you talk about that a little bit? That's when you sell a house and buy another. Okay. So a 1031 exchange only applies to investment properties. You cannot do this with your single family home. Um, but if you own an investment

property and you sell that, you then have a defined period of time where you can identify another investment property and then transfer your proceeds over to that and not pay the taxes on them. So for a lot of people, that's how they just keep on sort of delaying the inevitable, kicking the can down the road to not have to pay taxes and continue moving into different real estate vehicles. Capital gains taxes. Yeah, there you go. How do you, I feel like people have used that for residential or primary houses. No, it's not advice. We're not advising that, but what would be, what would classify as an investment property to use that? A home you don't live in. Got it. Simple as that. Yeah. A home can be defined in one of three ways. It's either your primary

residence, secondary residence, investment property. That that's it those are your three options so so your house your main house your beach house in you know maybe is the secondary and then the third is the one you rent out correct and so the 1031 exchange is for the third correct that's what we're talking about yeah exactly we end the the episodes by asking guests for a tip they can take straight to the bank. So what's one piece of real estate info that you think listeners can use today? These things don't happen overnight, right? So building a real estate portfolio is something you do over a lifetime. And if that means just chipping away at it little by little, buying a four unit, renting

that out, then using that rental income to save for the next down payment and so forth. You know, and I guess the last thing I would say is if you're a first time home buyer and I was a former mortgage broker for about eight years, go speak with the mortgage broker because right now what you're looking at is a really blurry picture. And what they can do is help you bring it into focus. They can just help you understand what you can qualify for, what you can't, what you need to do in terms of improving your FICO score, i.e. your credit score, how much money you need to save, how much more money you need to make, and they'll give you a roadmap to help get you where you want to go.

Well, I love that you had a bonus one. We had my mortgage broker on the show. Okay. Loved him. And I think it's really important for people to know what their options are. You don't pay them directly. Right. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network.

I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show

or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at moneynews and TikTok at moneynewsnetwork for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.