Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Say This When Asking For a Raise— According to Bozoma Saint John

Episode Date: April 5, 2024

If you’ve ever seen a Pepsi, Apple Music, Uber, or Netflix marketing campaign that you liked, Bozoma (Boz) Saint John probably had something to do with it. And that’s because, throughout her career, Boz has been at the helm of all of those massive brands. And today, we get to hear what she’s learned from working on these massive brands— like how to talk about mental health at work, how to build a personal brand, and how to negotiate a raise before you even get the job. Find more Boz badassery in her book, here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/688798/the-urgent-life-by-bozoma-saint-john/ Originally aired: 4.19.23

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your

reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. If you've ever seen a Pepsi, Apple Music, Uber, or Netflix marketing campaign that was super creative that you loved, Bo's St. John probably had something to do with it. And that's because

throughout her career, Bo's has been at the helm of all those massive brands. And if you're thinking, damn, that is a big deal, Lapin, you're right. Bose is a very big deal. And today we get to hear what she's learned from working at all of those massive brands on the show, from how to negotiate the salary you want, and yes, we do role play, to how to talk to your team about mental health and grief, this show is a career masterclass no matter what industry you're in. So, let's get to it. Badass Boze, welcome to Money Rehab. It is my pleasure to be here. I mean, look, I think the title says everything that we need.

Yes. Who doesn't need Money Rehab. Who doesn't need money rehab? Who doesn't need it? Everybody needs it. You know what I'm saying? You got money, you need it. You don't got money, you need it. You make money, you need it.

You got goals to make money, you need it. Everybody needs it. Do you need it? Hell yeah, I need it. Tell me more. What kind of money rehab do you need? Let me tell you something, okay? I feel like, you know, hashtag goals.

It's almost like there's some miscommunication going on because goals aren't static. Right. I mean, they're constantly changing. They're constantly evolving. You get, look, anybody will tell you who has had a goal, who has tried to get, you know, to some point on the mountaintop. When you reach there, what do you do?

You start looking around. Right. You want a new mountain. You want a new mountain. And so for me, the rehab is about making yourself better. Yes. You know, it's like how to continue to be improved version of yourself. And so, yeah, I need, I need the

money rehab too, because guess what? I got new goals. And I would love to hear all about those goals. And you know, for me, goals have price tags and I was going to put this on a t-shirt. Bose, you tell me if I can market this. A dream without a plan is just a wish and wishes are awesome, but they don't pay the bills. Do you think I have something there? You have something there. You have something there. I believe so. So tell me about your new goals and what kind of price tags are we looking at there?

What kind of new money rehab are you wanting? We really are just jumping right in, right? Because look, we're about to get real. No foreplay. Let's go straight to it. Look, the thing is, you know, I've had some success. Okay. In my corporate career, I've made some money. I've had a lot of really great big jobs, which have sharpened my tools, which have made me better at the jobs I've done. And now I'm looking around after having taken a break for a year from corporate America, which by the way, has been a shock to me. I never knew that that's what I ever wanted to do. You know, like I just thought I just keep climbing

the ladder until I don't know, I get to heaven, I guess. You know what I mean? Some nirvana that does not exist. But at some point I was like, oh, shoot, you know, I've got to take a break and focus on my creative aspects, which is in telling my own story, because I've been doing it through the process of these jobs. And obviously, as a marketer, I've had the privilege of creating narratives for all kinds of big businesses, but hadn't really focused on my story totally and completely. So I decided to take a break in order to focus on that. And now I'm looking around, I'm like, okay, my book is out. I'm telling my story. And now I've got to figure out whether or not I return to the ladder. And if I return to the ladder, where on the ladder am I stepping?

Yeah. And which ladder? That part. Which ladder? Because there are lots of ladders. So many. And you've been on a lot of them already. Exactly. But that's the, I think that's the beauty of this evolution as we started off with, you know, again, I think there is this misconception that you are trying to get to the top. And I think some people would look at me and say, oh, but you are at the top, you know, but my point is that, no, I've been there and now I'm looking around. I'm just like, oh, there must be another mountaintop somewhere, you know. And by the way, I'm not afraid to say that I don't know where the mountaintop is. Nobody does. I mean, look, right. But people don not afraid to say that I don't know where the mountaintop is. Nobody does.

I mean, look, right? But people don't want to say that. They want to pretend like they don't know everything. They got a plan. And it's like, oh, the plan is this, that, that. I'm going to do. Sometimes what you need to do is sit your ass down. Maybe the plan needs to come to you.

Give yourself a second. So that's where I am right now. I'm giving myself a second for the plan to come together. And then I will conquer that bad boy. Watch out. So when you got to the top of those ladders and you got this big pot of money, was it more money than you ever thought you would have? Like, have you been good with money? Yes. I've always been really good with money. You know what's so interesting about that? I'm so glad you asked that question because I remember being in like my early 20s in New York. Right. The money that I was making was like enough to like barely feed me, pay rent. And then look, I was going to the album release parties and the magazine release parties back when that was a thing to get my cocktails and some heavy hors d'oeuvres, you know, as free food. Look, okay. That's the kind of money I had then. You know what I mean? Nothing. You and me both brown rice and beans. Cause it felt fancier than ramen. The whole thing. Okay. And at the time I would create these budgets,

you know, for myself, right. Based on the little, little money I had. And I would say, okay, this is what I'm going to spend here. And this one, but I was never that person who was just freewheeling out here talking about, you know what, I'm going to do this right now. And I'll figure it out later. No, I always had a plan. It has always been like that for me. I have an idea of what it is I want to get. And then it evolves into the next thing. So it doesn't feel so static and it doesn't feel like a trap. And it lessens the anxiety, right? Because if you have a plan, it's there. You know exactly where you're going. It's like, we need a destination. And so if you can't manage $1 or $100

or $20,000, you're not going to be able to manage $100,000 or $1 million or $100 million budget for a big company, right? You are absolutely right. I don't know why we think that, like, oh, I got to have lots of money in order then to begin managing it. It's like whatever you're doing with your money right now is what you will do with it when you have $100 million. And so why not get better at managing the money you have? That way, the goal that you have to make lots and lots of money or what you're going to do with it later on when you have. That way, the goal that you have to make lots and lots of money or what you're going to do with it later on when you have the freedom,

you will be more responsible with it. And yeah, as I have increased in my jobs and responsibilities and different companies, you made a very distinct point, which I want to underline, which is that it's not only about my salary and what I take home that I'm managing, it's also managing these enormous budgets for ROI and for review later on

and to make sure that I am responsible with spending. That way, I also increase my knowledge and power of the amount of money I'm able to wield for a company. Yeah. And then it's how much you keep that really matters because as you make more money, the wants become needs and you have this lifestyle creep thing that goes on. Yes. That you've got to hold on to. Once you apply first class, those economy seats look real crazy. You don't really, you're just like, I don't know how I'm going to manage in that middle seat in 34 hours. So you got to manage the lifestyle. And the only way you're going to do that is if you know how to manage your money so that you're able to do that well.

And you've had a lot of women that you've hired, I'm sure, given a lot of salaries out. Have you ever had to stop somebody and say like, hey, you're getting good money, like get a 401k, make sure you're taking care of all of this? Oh my God, constantly. I cannot tell you countless conversations about that. It's shocking to me how many people don't think that it's necessary. Again, at whatever salary level you're at. But it's like, what is the plan? And how is it going to come back to you? You know, unless you understand that piece of it, because again, money has wings, right? You don't just want it to fly out the door. How is it going to return? How's the thing that you're investing in going to come back to you?

Yes. Like have a plan, you know, for the reason why you're spending the money and how you're spending it. That's why we do what we do, because I think the money is the last taboo. And I think financial literacy is the key to closing all the gaps, all the wealth gaps, all the investing gaps, the home ownership gap. And you know, the other part that we have to talk about, because, you know, I've said this publicly before, but we might as well get into it. You know, which is about negotiating your salary. I'm so glad you say that i have always believed to throw out that number and it is such an unpopular opinion right you've

said make it high as hell because then you can't be lowballed correct yes can we do a little role playing actually let's do it come on let's do it let's do it. Come on. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. Okay. So you're going to come and ask me for a raise. Okay. All right. Because I think like people know in theory those like that they should negotiate their salaries or they should negotiate because everything's negotiable. Like your rent, your whatever, but they don't know what to say. Exactly. I think they get stumped on what to say. Okay. All right. And scene. And also let's add context. Let's pretend that you saw the range for the job, right? And you applied, even though you know that the range was below what you'd like to make, but you thought, let me go in there. I'm going to crush this job and then I'm going to

go ask for a raise. Okay. So that's, that's the context because that's what happens to a lot of people. They go in there, they don't give a number so they don't get the salary they want to begin with. And then they're out here trying to get a raise. Okay. That's the context. Okay. So I'm hiring you. So I'm the boss. Yes. And I'm going to say, Bose, we love you. We love the test that we gave you. The team decided that we would like to extend an offer to you. And the offer is a hundred grand. This is so exciting. I am thrilled. I cannot tell you how much I've been wanting to contribute to this company, to your goals. Everything I've heard has just made me just want to come in here and just crush all of the goals that you have. And I'm ready to do that.

The way I'm going to do it is based on the experience that I have. So I've done X, Y, and Z thing here. I've done X, Y, and Z thing there. And I know you know this because I've expressed it during this interview process. And so my starting salary is $120,000. And I would love to be able to come in here feeling comfortable that you are getting exactly what it is that you're going to pay for. Otherwise, I don't believe that you're going to be able to get the type of quality candidate that you want to actually do the work. Well, I'm so glad that you're excited about the position.

You know, we're really strict on our ranges. I could go back to the team and maybe we can get you, you know, if we split the difference like 110. How would that sound? Well, look, I think that there's various ways for us to get to the number. You know, perhaps it's not all cash. I'm open to thinking about other ways to get to the 120. Perhaps there are some options that I could participate in, or maybe there are some other perks that I'm not aware of for this position. And so let's think about how we get to 120. And maybe it's not all cash,

because I understand that it may not be available today. Perhaps there's another way we can look at it. Is it over time? Can we revisit this in three months or in six months that we add some goals for me to hit? And should I hit those, I get the increase in salary. And that's fine with me. That's a good point. I think coming up with some clear KPIs and a growth plan and a growth strategy here, I think that's something the team can get behind. And we'll talk about your overall compensation package. That's right. Thank you very much. And see.

We did it. So I love so many of the points you brought up there because, you know, to think about an overall compensation package is really important, right? Like PTO is important. Like that could be valuable to you or an expense account or like what are the other things you brought up options? Oh, my gosh. Let me tell you this. Okay. One of the things and this is especially for women, but it applies to everybody, but especially for women, one of the most undervalued ideas, especially when you are trying to become a better known executive,. And so let's not just think about the job that

you're going for, the one that you're in. Let's think about the next one. You need to be better known. And so one of the areas that I have become strategically expert at is negotiating how much public facing I can do on behalf of the company or on behalf of my role. Because the moment you are hidden underneath somebody else, or you don't get the credit for the work that you're doing, the less you are known for your expertise. And in that way, you're not even able to claim things for the next job. You want to be able to be so well known for the things that you do that people come and seek you.

This is like a real world example of when I took the job at Uber from Apple. People were like, oh, who's that? Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm 15 years in the game, but okay, yeah, cool. I'm glad you're getting to know me now. But as soon as I was negotiating my package for Uber, one of the things I said was like, hey, look, if I'm going to come here at a time when it's a little bit of a disaster and we're trying to fix a brand image and I'm going to be the chief brand officer, it is imperative that I'm out in front, that I'm the one who's talking about the image of Uber. I'm the one who's talking about the policy changes and the things that are happening here, which are going to have positive benefits. And in so doing, I increased my own

popularity. So I think that there is something there. Sometimes we forget that you want to really play chess in this game. You know, it's like you want to increase your value in the work that you do. And sometimes that does not come in your paycheck. Sometimes that comes because you've negotiated that I'm going to be on the panels. I'm going to do some of the interviews. I'll do the big presentations to the CEO or whomever, the BP, whatever, whatever role you're at, right? I'm going to be the one who's going to represent the work. And you negotiate that as part of the package. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card

debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story.

Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Ch chime.com slash disclosures for details. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming

to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full-time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high-quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work,

but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. And now for some more money rehab. So I'm going to show you something that I dug up that might creep you out. I don't know. But I saw you back in 2017 on the stage

with these earrings that I'll never forget. This was at AdWeek. I was like creeping on you with this POW earrings. I'll never forget. I saw the sassy little sparkle. I don't know if you remember this outfit, but I will never forget this outfit. That was cute.

That was cute. So I was creeping on you since back then. And that was literally when you took the stage and you were the face. Yes. So it's really interesting that you're using your own brand equity. Like maybe you can get equity equity from the company and that's cooler options. But like brand equity can pay most dividends later on. Correct.

And equity in yourself. You know, so again, that's the point I'm making, which is that when you're negotiating, don't just consider the negotiation of the paycheck and the money that goes into your bank account. You know, you're also negotiating on the equity in you. You know, every job that you take, every chance you have to make a dollar, make sure you're also investing in yourself, in your future self. Time is money, right? And so if I am in a job where I am repeating something I already know, then it's a waste of my time. I need to be in a position where I'm constantly learning and constantly getting better.

And so therefore, I can continue to raise the stake on what I am worth. And so therefore, I can continue to raise the stake on what I am worth. So therefore, I'm not wasting six months of my time on something I already know. So if you're not going to give me new opportunities in order to get sharper, I'm out of there. I'm on to the next thing because that's how I'm going to continue to make myself sharper, myself better. And therefore, I can increase my value in the space. Have you talked about what your salaries are? No, not publicly. Do you think that women should? I talked about mine. I put them in my book. I didn't care. I

was like, I'm telling people to talk about it. I'll go first. You know what I think the challenge with that is, is that, you know, we're in a comparative society where I think we're so focused on what the next person is doing that we forget what we're doing. Let me tell you something. Put every microphone on. I'm just going to say it. I am the most valuable marketer in the world. I am. Okay? And so if I were to begin to compare and say, oh, you paid this CMO this amount of money, I am going to lessen my value. Why would I do that? And the other thing that we forget is that our self-worth is based on what we think we are worth. And so therefore, this is what happens and it's dangerous. It's a slippery slope. This is where imposter

syndrome also shows up. Because you start looking over here and you're like, oh, well, that person's making $100,000. I'm making $80,000. I should be making $100,000. Do you really think you should be making $100,000? It was only because they're making $100,000. Are you worth $100,000? Come on, be honest. If you're not worth $100,000, don't go over there and ask them for $100,000. You're not worth it. And you know it. And so then you're going to get into the job. You're going to be sitting there like, oh my God, they gave me a hundred thousand dollars and I don't even know what I'm doing. And then here comes imposter syndrome. And guess what you're going to do? You're going to fail. And the other thing is, if you believe that you were worth a hundred thousand dollars and the person you're looking at, the salary you know they're paying is

80. And then you go for that job. You're going to be sitting there bitter as hell talking about, I know I'm worth more. I'm not even going to do that project because they know I'm worth more than this. And guess what that leads to? More failure. So again, I think it's a little bit dangerous. Sometimes I think it's really good to understand what the range is. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to understand what people are making. But again, we become so dependent on that, so focused on that, that we forget to be self-centered. I think that's the key word that we need here. Be self-centered, you know, in your own life, in your own experiences. What is it that you need? What are you worth?

Focus on that and forget everybody else trying to compare and see what everybody else makes. Who cares? If you're not making what you think you're worth, then you're wasting your time too. Well, I think, yeah, being selfish is not a bad thing. I mean, being selfless, I think often gets glorified, especially for women. Don't get me started on that. I mean, I remember when you were even talking on the stage at Adweek and I saw you, you were talking about brand love for Uber.

I'm going to butcher it. You're going to say it much better. But as a marketer, you've really built this brand love for Uber. I'm going to butcher it. You're going to say it much better. But as a marketer, you've really built this brand love. And as people are thinking about their personal brand, how do you develop that brand love? Well, here's the thing, right? Is that like we get so confused again in some of these words that we think it's like something that doesn't exist and then we got to go build it. Your brand exists. It's called your reputation. And if you're not actively involved in it, then somebody else is creating it for you. Okay. So it's not as if it like doesn't exist and

I can choose not to participate. No, somebody else is doing it. So would you rather leave it up to somebody else's imagination or would you rather do it yourself? That's really the question. If you are comfortable with letting other people determine what your reputation is, then by all means, sit back, cross your arms, fold your head, put it down, do the work. However, if you are at all concerned

that some knucklehead out here is going to report differently on how you do your work or what you do or how you think, then I strongly encourage you to start opening your mouth and create your own brand narrative. And that doesn't mean necessarily that you need a whole strategy that is built on time and space. And I need to post this on Instagram then. And I need to be on this panel at this time. There's need to be all that. I'm talking about like, start with the basics. Start talking about what it is that you do. Why are you unique?

And if you don't know the answer to that, then start at the step below that. Why are you so special? And if you don't think you're special, I need you to go up level below that and figure out why is it that you don't think you're special? Why is it that you don't think that there's something unique about you that can be glorified, that can be celebrated? And then start doing that yourself because that's how then you build the reputation, which again becomes your brand equity. And brand love is a result of understanding all of that and being able to sit in it comfortably.

This is not arrogance. It's called awareness. And a lot of the time people have trauma or grief that stands in the way of that awareness. Now you haven't shied away from having a personal brand and you've also openly talked about your personal life and how it's affected your career, especially now with the new book, The Urgent Life, you talk about how grief has

impacted your career and your internal brand work. How can people start thinking about vulnerability and sharing? Because we're all going through shit, right? Like all of us, everybody has something that's struggling with. So how do you use that and make it powerful when you think that being vulnerable at work is gonna show or come across as TMI or that you're a hot mess? Very much like all of your experiences that you have in work make you unique for a certain job,

so do your personal experiences. I am a much better leader, a much more empathetic leader because I'm a widow. I understand what it's like to sit at the bedside of someone who has terminal cancer and watch them die. I'm a much more empathetic leader because I'm a single mother. I understand what it takes to have that mommy guilt and what it feels like when you have to miss your child's play or recital or even help them with homework because you're stuck on a business call or they fell asleep at your feet because you couldn't stop that Excel spreadsheet that you're working on. I'm a much better empathetic leader because I am a daughter of immigrants and I understand the hustle that it takes in order to make a place that is not your home, your home, to be respected even when you talk with a thick accent or your name is not familiar. All of these things that are personal to me make me a much better leader. I understand people better.

And so guess what? Yes, I use that in the conversations that I have. You know, when I was coming into my job at Netflix as a global CMO in the middle of the pandemic, mind you, I talked about that with Ted Sarandos, who's now the CEO. He was the co-CEO at the time. But we talked about the fact that I understood the struggle of what it would take for team members around the globe who are responsible for small children while trying to do the work of creating strategies around these enormous global shows because I understand. I live it. And so I'm not

trying to make up scenarios in my head and think like, oh, what would it be like if I had to take a call at 8 p.m.? What concessions would I need to make? I'm a much better leader because of that. better leader because of that. And so I don't think that for those who are going through challenges, traumas, grief, loss, the things that feel messy, that that's to be hidden. It's your superpower. It's a thing that makes you even better than everybody else because you've been able to not just like manage it and you're going through it, but it's like you are self-aware. You are knowledgeable of what it takes to do the work while dealing with this other thing. So that is why I think it's so important for us to be that much more open about who we are and what we do. It is your superpower. It is not a weakness. No, I mean, you think it's a weakness.

I've gone through this myself and then reframing it. You have to reframe the exact same thing as a superpower and view it as an asset instead of a liability. On another podcast I host with the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, we recently had a listener come on who had been struggling with her mental health. She's a freelance journalist. She was falling behind on deadlines. And she said she was having trouble talking to the people she was taking freelance assignments from. She didn't know how it would come across. So like, what kind of advice would you give her

for having a conversation like that? You know, there's so many nuances to it, you know? Not everybody feels comfortable telling other people exactly what they're going through. And so I don't even counsel that you actually need to do that. I'm counseling that you need to create your boundaries or communicate the ways in which you can work so that you can manage whatever it is that you're going through. You know, perhaps for her, with what she was managing with her mental health and the balance that she needed in her life, perhaps it was about setting across the ways in which she could work so that she could balance both. I've struggled with depression myself. I write about it in my book. It was very, very difficult for me during college. I was on medication and other things.

And I would find that, you know, mornings were okay. It was the afternoons and evenings that became too much. It felt like the world became too complicated, you know, and the pressures were becoming overwhelming. So I found it very difficult to be effective. Let's put it that way in the afternoon and evenings. And it actually changed the way that I even work, right? I find that my most productive hours, even though now I don't struggle with depression, but my most effective hours are during the morning, you know, and that's why I wake up at four, work out at five. It helps endorphins start in my brain, you know, and therefore I'm super productive. I mean, look,

if you've been on my team, you know, I like a 7am meeting, you know, I'm right at that time, you know, by the time it gets to like four o'clock in the afternoon, I'm starting to lose steam, you know, I'm gonna need a break, you know? So my point is that, you know, some of it, it is self-awareness and being vulnerable enough to communicate what it is that you need so you can be your best. This is not about communicating things I cannot do. This is about communicating things I can do. So you're saying, look, I'm a freelancer on this project. Again, I'm going to crush this thing because I'm so excited about this project. I am going to work on it at this time, because this is when I am my best, my most creative, my most excited, and my most productive. At this time, I need quiet. It is the time when I need to think, I need to go inward, and it is when I do my best thinking. Maybe that means sleeping. You know what

I'm saying? But when I'm communicating to you, it's not that I have mental health challenges, but that I need this time in order to do the work and do it well for you. And then this time is time that I need in order to take a break. You will not believe how many people will respond positively to that simply because you communicated it. It is such a lost art. You know, we think that like by communicating somehow it makes us seem messy or irresponsible. I'm like, no, that's actually the whole problem, you know. So to anyone who is struggling with being vulnerable about what they are managing or dealing with in their personal life that is going to affect your work life. to your work life. If you feel comfortable, I would encourage you to express what it is that you're going through and how that is actually managed so that you can still be present for

what you're doing. Again, communication. I've just got to understand where you are. It doesn't mean that you're bad. It's just that I got to figure out how to work with you. Listen, self-awareness is, I think, the greatest quality you can find in a human, like a friend, a partner, an employee, anything. And we have a lot of, you know, small business listeners. We have a lot of side hustlers. Because you are the best marketer in the world, all the mics were on for that. Tell us where we should be thinking about marketing right now, even if we have a small spend, social ads, influencer marketing, Google streaming podcasts,

what are you seeing right now? Oh my goodness. Okay. So we're at a really crucial point in our culture and our societies where cancel culture feels really scary, right? Because you don't want to say the wrong thing. You don't want to say the wrong thing. You don't want to do the wrong thing because, you know, people won't forgive you. You know, they'll be like, ah, forget her. She's done. So people don't say the truth. You know, they don't show up as themselves because they're afraid people won't like it.

That is actually the wrong way to behave. Our best defense is offense. The best defense is to be able to be out in front and say, this is who I am. This is what I do. And this is what I'm about. If you think as a small business owner or as a side hustler that the thing you are trying to create has to talk to everybody, then you're going about this the wrong way. Marketing is about targeting a very narrow center. And then you have the secondary

and tertiary markets who come along. But the bullseye has to be specific. And so they have to be the people who are interested in the thing you're interested in. It's not everybody. Again, look, I've worked for big companies, right? It's like when I worked for PepsiCo and I was working on Diet Pepsi, you could say, oh, you know what? I think Diet Pepsi should be marketed to everybody with lips. And it's like, no, that's actually not how it works. Okay. Diet Pepsi is targeted to specifically people who are interested in their health and wellness. They are dieters. They are people who are concerned about their sugar intake. It is a very narrow segment of people. That's who you talk to. You got to go for the specific people, right? And then bring your full self. Because again, I think as human beings, we think that like, oh, you know what? If I don't connect with that person on exactly all the points on the list, they won't respect me. They won't like me. That's not how human beings work. do. We pretend that we don't because we think that, oh, my God, like, you know, we don't go to the same school, not from the same place. We don't believe in the same religion. We don't have the

same politics that somehow we can't get along. It's not true. You and I grew up very differently, I'm sure. But there are points that we connect on. First generation American. Yeah. Yeah. Connect. Totally. Yeah. You can't be all things to all people or you're nothing to anyone. Right. And by the way, if you find like exactly who she is or he is or whatever, like they're cheaper if you could get real, real narrow in your marketing. All right. Bose, we end our episodes with a tip listeners can take straight to the bank. What is one piece of advice you would give someone on how to live their life more urgently today? Gosh, one piece of advice. Well, one piece of advice

is to be present. Right now, we focus so much on what is coming that we forget that the living is in this moment. You know, are you satisfied in your life? Are you? No, we are so ambitious all the time that we think we have to be hungry for the next thing. But the truth of the matter is that regardless of how long your life is, you want to be satisfied in it. Again, I've had the unfortunate experience of being at the bedside of someone who died, I think, way too early. My husband, Peter.

And we didn't talk about the things that he should have done. We talked about things he had done, you know, if he was happy in the life he had lived. And I want to get to the end of my life and be so satisfied. And so right now, even as I look at the things that I'm doing, the ways that I am, I have great ambition. I have high, high hopes for the future. But I tell you one thing, I am satisfied in my life. If I were to go tomorrow, I would be so happy with the life I've lived.

And so if you don't feel that way, I urge you, I urge you to change the life that you're living right now. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Levoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehabatmoneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me.

And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.