Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Vivian Tu on Why She's Your Rich BFF— But Not Your Finfluencer

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

Money talk entering the mainstream is a great thing, but the world of "finfluencing" has a dark side. Money content on social media operates like the Wild West— with far fewer rules than on Wall Street. Today, Nicole sits down with financial educator Vivian Tu to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly of finfluencer-land. They talk about the “financial advice” that keeps them up at night, how to confirm if a financial educator is legit, and they play a game of financial "never have I ever" that you should totally try at home.   Preorder Vivian's debut book Rich AF here!

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your

reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. When I started making fun content about finance, we weren't even calling it content back

then. And also, everyone thought I was crazy. It sounds unbelievable now, but when I left my comfy job as a TV news anchor to write my first book, Rich Bitch, people told me it would flop unequivocally. They said Money Talk wasn't cool. They said Money Talk wasn't sexy and that I could not make a career teaching people about it. Thank God they were wrong. Cut to 2023 and not only have others join me on this journey, but there's a whole term now for this category. Finfluencer. Money talk entering the mainstream is not only a good thing, it's a great thing. But the world of finfluencing has a dark side. There's nothing stopping literally anyone from creating an Instagram account and giving financial advice, even if they have no business doing so.

Financial advisors can't just say they're financial advisors. They have to get a whole accreditation first. Shouldn't it be the same online? Today, I'm talking about this with one of my favorite financial educators on Instagram, Vivian, too. The reason I love Vivian

is because she is actually qualified to be talking about this. She used to be a trader on Wall Street, and now she's helping people learn more about their money through her content, including drumroll, please, her first book, Rich AF, which you can pre-order now. Today we talk about the financial advice, in quotes, that keeps us up all night, how to confirm if a financial educator is legit, and we also play a game of financial

never have I ever that I think you should totally try at home. Vivian Tu, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you so much for having me. So if somebody asks you what you do, how would you introduce yourself? Finish this sentence. I am a... Internet person. I am the World Wide Web, actually.

You know, I think I actually was really embarrassed at the beginning of doing your Rich BFF stuff to tell people that I was an influencer because I think when you think of the term influencer and you close your eyes, the first thing you think of is somebody who just takes pics in bikinis and doesn't necessarily provide that much value to others. And that's not to say it's not important to have lifestyle influencers. I certainly follow a ton of them. But I think financial educator is probably a better term of what I like to consider my work. And the 10 second spiel is, you know, I am someone who creates content about personal finance, budgeting, saving, investing,

and everything in between, who encourages you to have money conversations with your friends. And a lot of that content does live digitally. So whether that be through social media, my podcast, or my upcoming book. And how do you feel about the term finfluencer specifically? So I don't love that term because when I think of the term finfluencer, it's two words, right? Finance influencer. And what are you doing? You're influencing people to buy specific investments. That seems really shady and sketchy. And I think the term finfluencer encompasses a lot of the bad behavior and bad advice that

I was trying so hard to debunk when I started your HBFF. I love, love, love what you do because you were on Wall Street. You know what to teach. But I know you were seeing this type of thing too when you left your Wall Street job behind. So what are some of the examples that were most egregious content that you saw? Funny enough, it's very self-serving material that really pisses me off. So people who talk about whole life insurance being the end-all be-all investment,

if you're not investing in whole life, you don't want infinite banking, you don't want generational wealth. And like, I hate to break it to you, but whole life insurance is not a good investment for everybody. Frankly, I wouldn't even categorize it as an investment. It's life insurance is not a good investment for everybody. Frankly, I wouldn't even categorize it as an investment. It's life insurance.

The upfront fees are so damn high that it really doesn't actually make sense for people who don't already have a lot of money. People use whole life insurance with the cash benefit as a way to diversify. It's a cash preservation strategy. It's not a growth strategy. So when people are like, yeah, this is the best investment possible. It's like, really? Because you could be investing that

same money in just a standard index fund that tracks the S&P 500, make so much more in gains over 40 years. And you could just buy term life if you need a death benefit to make sure your loved ones are taken care of. So I think there are better strategies than some of the ones touted. I would also say what really frustrates me is when people are like, you should listen to me because I'm a finance expert. Okay, what makes you an expert? Because when I say I'm a Wall Street girly, I didn't just walk onto Wall Street one day. hey, I'm a Wall Street girlie. I didn't just walk onto Wall Street one day. I had to sit and test for my Series 7, my 63, my 55, because I worked at Equities, which is the stock space. I had to

take six months worth of training just to do my job. And for someone to sit there and act like your guess is as good as mine, it's not. The way we talk about things, the way our fundamental understanding of the financial services space is very different. And it's really frustrating when people give advice and aren't qualified to do so. Listen, I'm not a registered investment advisor. I don't talk to retail investors. I was working with hedge funds, asset managers, to retail investors. I was working with hedge funds, asset managers, big, big, big money, high net worth individuals. So I don't ever pretend to be someone who has worked with individual clients. When people are like, can we do a one-on-one? I'm like, no, no, no. I don't charge for one-on-ones because what I'm trying to do is educate. I don't offer services. I don't

sell a course. I don't do any of that stuff because I think the people that do have kind of given it a really bad name. And I think in order to really explain this stuff, you have to really know it first. They look at it and they say like, oh, you can just throw a bunch of swear words and some crazy graphics and make it sexy and cool. It's like, no, the way The Daily Show works and the reason that that's funny is because those writers know the news so well that they can make fun of it. It's like you have to know this space so well before you can start democratizing it. You have to understand the language or the rules before you break them. And so I think that's an important part that hasn't translated. And there's no regulation.

If somebody's scrolling on TikTok and they see a creator talking about finance in some really enticing way, because the TikTok algorithm is like crack, how do you make sure it's legit? Yeah. One thing that is so important for every single person to be able to do is their own due diligence. So when you hear something or learn about something on the internet in the form of a 60 to 90 second video, go ahead and assume not every single important detail can be covered in 60 to 90 seconds. You can then go and use this amazing thing we have called the Google machine and literally type in the words that you've just learned about. Things that you want to explore more, whether that be tax hacks, whether that be certain investment accounts that have benefits based on what you're using that money for, whether that be

certain types of budgeting formats that might work best if you have inconsistent income or someone who gets paid on a infrequent basis but cuts massive checks. There are so many things that you can just double check by going onto the internet and seeing if verified sources, if reputable brands have published something similar. So whether that be seeing if CNN or the Wall Street Journal or Bloomberg or any news network, frankly, has confirmed what you're hearing is really, really important because unfortunately, like you mentioned, the TikTok algorithm is crack. It does oftentimes reward the worst behavior because the algo can't tell the difference

between a comment that's like, yay, this is awesome versus this is wrong. If a ton of people comment on some 14 year old boy's video being like, hey, what you're saying is actually wrong, trying to inform him or something along those lines, like that still gets pushed as engagement. And so the more and more people that are outraged that something so egregiously incorrect could be put on the internet, that only feeds the fire. And then you end up with a video that's gotten 13 million views and is wrong. Yeah. So the algorithm optimizes for popularity and not accuracy.

Correct. Which makes me want to bang my head against the wall. I've talked to a bunch of financial services companies and brands. And yeah, and I went through like the CFP program and got a bunch of alphabet soup stuff. And I take this really, really seriously. Like I lose sleep to make sure that we're doing the right thing and the trusted thing because it's so important. Yes, also supplements are important, but this is like your money. Like I want it to be fun and sexy, but not too fun and sexy. Like I don't want to gamify my money. And I think there should be some sort of regulation. Do you think that's realistic? I really do think that there should be some sort of regulation. So

it's different if you buy a $12 lip gloss that sucks versus putting your money, all of it into one investment that ends up being a pump and dump scheme. I think the risks are just very, very different. You know, the FTC currently controls all advertising. So you have to have, what is the phrase, clear and conspicuous disclosures. So I'm always very careful when I'm working with brand partners to be like, at the brand, hashtag at. So it's very clear when something isn't at. And if we're on a platform that allows you to tag them or paid partnership or what have you,

I'm always using those toggles. But when it comes to money, I do think there should be an added level of regulation or an added end card or something that you need to put on. And oftentimes I do, even though I'm not required to, because it's someone's livelihood that you are discussing. I do think that whether it be the FTC or in particular, the SEC should step in and there should be more regulations about finance content. Listen, if you want to go to the SEC with me, I am so down. We should have

like a roundtable with the Instagram and TikTok and the SEC. It's true. And when I was at CNBC, you'd have to do your disclosures so you don't talk your book or like experts wouldn't talk your book. Can you explain what that means? So when people are talking their book, it essentially means they are positively talking about investments that they personally hold or have some sort of positive financial gain to be had. So say I buy a ton of stock A, and then I'm like, oh, I'm going to go on Nicole's podcast and talk about how amazing stock A is. Obviously, then people are going to go buy stock A, but I already have stock A. So that stock price is likely going to go up. I will be in a better

financial position. I have something to gain by saying all of those things. And when you have the type of reach and platform that you and I have, we have to be really mindful about conflicts of interest. We have to be really mindful about talking our own books. I totally agree. Like I really am becoming more and more passionate. So the offer was half a joke, but half serious to try and figure it out. Because I worry, like, I think there should be an added level beyond the lip gloss of what all of these folks who say they're finfluencers or fin talk or fin whatever the fuck should put on there. Because otherwise, I think it's really reckless.

Yeah. And then to talk about a very specific example, FTX. Frankly, I haven't seen many of the influencers who were vehemently advocating for that platform. Want to be clear, I never did. Same. Or NFTs or any of that. Yeah, no, none of that shit. But I haven't seen apology messages come out from a lot of those people who were really, really promoting a brand like FTX that really were people just like lost all of their money and they're going to have to wait through bankruptcy court. Maybe they'll get pennies on the dollar one day. But for now, that's gone.

And that's sad because that could have been somebody's retirement fund. That could have been someone's vacation money. That could have been the money they were saving for a house, for a car, for a wedding, what have you. Like that is someone's livelihood. And frankly, I find it really disappointing. I think some of those really, really big name celebrities are being held accountable. I think they're part of the class action or whatever, the plaintiffs in that suit.

But I think anybody who had anything to do with that situation should, first and foremost, apologize and be like, listen, I didn't know. I didn't have access to this information. I did with that what I could say that. But also, there should be financial remuneration of some sort. Agreed. I think at the crux of this, and the algorithm optimizes for this too, is this idea that there is an easy fix. Like it's been since the early days of stocks that there is a get rich quick idea and people are fascinated and tantalize it and think like you can skip all the steps and like just get rich.

Do you think that's what is being optimized or proliferated as well? Yes. But two notes I will make. First and foremost, the very first video I made went viral. And the reason it went viral, I think in a large part was because I said, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't have a get rich quick scheme. They don't fucking exist.

But if you want to learn about personal finance, follow me. And that really was the video that like kicked off this entire thing. What I will say is our parents and frankly, us have been peddled a myth that if you do all the right things, you can have everything. So you are a good student in high school. You get into a good college. You get that degree. You get that job. You get to have the two and a half kids, golden retriever, white picket fence house with the tire swing out front. That used to be possible. You could have a single breadwinner family, have a single family home with your kids, what have you, send them to college. It was possible. I will say the younger version of millennials, I would say I fall into that category as well as Gen Z. They have never seen

a economic system that's worked. They did all the right things. They followed the rule book. worked. They did all the right things. They followed the rule book. And now they're coming out of these schools with six figures in student loan debt. Houses are 3x in price. Education is 10x in price versus the generation before them. And they're really just feeling disenfranchised. So I get the desire to get rich quick. I think a lot of people are also preying on that desire because they know that a lot of these young people don't see happy retirement or a happy adult life as a possibility or reality for themselves. So they're trying to take advantage of that. And it's just honestly kind of messed up. Because your first video was viral, does that show you that there

is appetite for get rich slow content? I do. I think there's a severe hunger for true financial literacy education because for so long we haven't taught it. In particular, I speak to an audience that's primarily women, people of color, LGBTQ community members, people who grew up low income, basically none of the people that you could find watching CNBC, AKA male palestale. So like, I think when people are like, oh, finally someone who looks like me, who talks like me, who wears a cute little pink t-shirt like me, and feels like a friend versus like a professor giving a lecture, they want to listen. They want to do the right thing. People are going to try to build the best life that money can buy for themselves. And they want that information. But it is sometimes hard because people ask me all the time, what should I be investing in? And when I actually give a legitimate breakdown of like, here are some great options, that video never goes viral.

Let me tell you, that video gets like 50 views. Maybe the videos that do go viral. I'm like, this is what you should do if you win the lottery. Do you know how many people win the lottery? A handful, if that, and how you can take a section 179 write-off if you own a business and depreciate 80% of your car in the very first year. And it has to be over 6,000 pounds. Like that information is cool. I do think it's important to talk about because it makes finance fun, but damn, do I really wish the more boring stuff would go viral too? Yeah, of course. Let's talk about it. What do you wish would have gone viral? Why can't we talk about the 50-30-20 method and make that just as fun to talk about as

pop culture? Because that works for most people. And it is the easiest jump off point to start a budget where you put 50% of your after-tax take-home pay towards needs, 30% towards wants, after-tax take-home pay towards needs, 30% towards wants, and 20% towards saving, debt pay down, and investing. That is the easiest jump-off point. And a lot of people don't know about it. And I think more people should. When I made a video about it, nobody watched it. But I get that it's not as sexy as these amazing secret tax write-offs. I get that. But I think it's important. Hold onto your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back.

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid

up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card

provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash. But I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated

if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work. But sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly.

I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. And now for some more money rehab. What is the process that you go through? Because it's more analytical and I think that's important to remember for people who are looking at this as outsiders. I'm very fortunate because I have like a pretty deep bench of existing content. So I'll go through and see what topics, what intros, what formats really hit. And I'll have that in the back of my mind. Then for ideation purposes, I'll go through a bunch of news. And I mean, I'm a pretty voracious news reader. And then I'll pull certain

articles that I'm like, these are topics that I want to discuss. These are the studies that they reference or the sources so that I know they're legitimate. And I then go and I filter through all of this news that I've now saved for myself and being like, what of this will my audience care most about? Then I would say about half of those news articles get purged because they're just not good enough for the BFFs. And the ones that hang on, I then look through, I'm like, what is the most engaging format through which I can convey this information? And then I go and I ideate, meaning I write up the little scripts or at least an outline with talking points. So then I can have each of them set up. And I think people

think I make like a new video every day. No, I have a blocked day where I film and I film one video and I take off my shirt and I put on a different shirt and I film again. I take off my shirt and I put on a different shirt and then I have a reserve of a couple of videos so that I can slowly distribute them throughout the week. And then I also do all of my own editing. Yeah, your girl does her own stunts. So I have to edit. And I would say I largely use CapCut for that. But there's no fancy editor. It's just me and my thumbs. And I try the best I can. And it's worked out okay thus far. It's worked out great thus far. And I hear you. I'm like, I'm only going to put lashes on one time a week, you guys. That's it. All right, because we're both money nerds, I would love to play a game of financial never have I ever.

And we're going to put our fingers up and then we'll put a finger down if we've done something. Okay, ready? Let's do it. Never have I ever invested in crypto. I have a very, very, very small investment in Bitcoin and a very, very small investment in Ethereum. Just to watch. Funny money. If I lost 100% of it, it wouldn't be a problem. Yeah. I say keep it to no more than 1% of your net worth. Everybody has a net worth, not just rich folks. Yeah. I have a little bit of Bitcoin. All right. Never have I ever maxed out a credit card. Hell yeah. No, I haven't. Oh, wait. I don't put my finger down. Okay. Yeah. Never have I ever bought a house? I have. Never have I ever been in credit

card debt? I have. I don't believe so. No. You put it down if you have, right? Yeah. I'm so bad at this game. You're doing great. Never have I ever fought with a romantic partner about money? never have I ever fought with a romantic partner about money. It wasn't a fight, but this dude told me on one of our first dates that he had five-figure credit card debt while also wearing a Rolex and Gucci shoes and a Ferragamo tie. And I was like, oh, bye. So we'll put that down because I did end things with that man. All right. It may be not a fight in an animated discussion or just like a huge red flag. Okay. Never have I ever overdrafted.

Oh, yeah. It wasn't even that I didn't have the money. I just didn't have a good cash management system set up. And then I was like, oh, shoot. I didn't know that this payment was hitting the same day as like whatever. And you got to be careful with auto pay because sometimes you don't got it like that. No. And overdraft protection, you think it's protection, but it's not.

Never have I ever paid on a first date. I've paid for my half. I've never paid for the full bill. You don't think you've ever paid on a first date? I don't think I have. Wow. You know what, guys? That's goals right there.

That is goals. And it's not because I can't. It's because I don't think I have. Wow. You know what, guys? That's goals right there. That is goals. And it's not because I can't. It's because I don't want to. And that's just what I want. Oh, okay. I love that. Okay. Never have I ever signed a prenup.

I haven't, but my fiance and I are getting one. And I have one ready to go for future Mr. Lappin. Never have I ever played the lottery. I have, but it was just for shits and giggles. It was for a birthday. We went and got a couple lottery tickets. Never have I ever been fired from a job. I have not. I haven't been fired for cause. Okay. Never have I ever treated myself to a six-figure gift. What about the house? The house was a gift. I don't have a car because I am relearning how to drive right now. It's incredibly humiliating as a 29-year-old telling people that. But I went to

school in Chicago. There's four years. Then I moved to New York, six years. It's been a decade since I've been behind the wheel. So it's a little hard. I get nervous when I'm changing lanes or merging or turning or going straight. I just don't like any of it. Listen, I have car trauma too, so I get it. Never have I ever negotiated a raise. Oh, we definitely have. Never have I ever paid for a friend's airfare on a girl's trip. I haven't, but I would because I am very fortunate

to be in a different financial position than most of my girlfriends now. They are all smarter than me. They got these fancy graduate degrees. One of them is going to be a surgeon. One of them is going to be an attorney. Well, one of them is a surgeon. One of them is finishing her last year in law school. Two just graduated and got their MBAs. They're all smarter than me. But I started working as soon as I graduated college and from my undergrad. And I have not stopped making money.

You could not pay me enough to go back to school. You and me both. I did the case against the NBA and what a scam it is. People spend all this money on their brain. And then I've spoken at MBA programs. I'm like, why am I talking at an MBA program? You guys are paying so much money for it. Like, why am I talking at an MBA program? You guys are paying so much money for it. But that's cool. You are a good friend. I would do the same thing.

All right. So I guess you won. Yeah, because I had one finger left. So I love it. Okay. You are Elle Wall Street Girly after my own heart. I end all of our episodes by asking listeners for one tip they can take straight to the bank. I know you have so many, but what is one for today? This is a hardcore one. And it's a piece of advice that my mentor gave me. And she said this,

you can only save as much as you earn, but you can always earn more money. And that has led me to basically encouraging everybody who follows me and just anybody I can meet is ask for a 10 to 15% raise every single year. Am I saying you're going to get it every single year? Probably not, but there's no harm in asking. And frankly, if you go two years without getting a raise, without getting promoted or something along those lines, there has been a study that has shown over your lifetime, minds, there has been a study that has shown over your lifetime, you will make 50% less than someone who job jumps every two years. So I think it's really important to remember two years is up or out. You either have to be getting a meaningful raise or you got to look externally to get paid

more. At the end of the day, work is work. You do a job for money. Sure, you might like it. Sure, it's something that fulfills you, but you do work to make money so that you can have a happy life and support yourself. And you need to go wherever you're going to be able to do that best. All right, girl, I'll see you at the SEC. Yeah. Should we wear matching outfits? Obviously. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab?

And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.