Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - What To Do If You Get Laid Off: Employment Attorney Ryan Stygar on Keyboard Tracking, Return to Office and Negotiating Severance

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Employment attorney Ryan Stygar joins Nicole to hand us the playbook our employers hope they never find. He breaks down what "at-will employment" actually means and the exact moves to make the moment you get that dreaded out-of-nowhere email from HR. He also reveals everything that's negotiable in a severance package: the cash amount, COBRA coverage, equity vesting schedules, and non-disparagement clauses, and shares how he turned a $6,000 severance offer into over $60,000 for one client. Then Nicole and Ryan role-play a firing from both sides of the table — so you know exactly what to say and what never to say. They dig into the issues that disproportionately affect women at work: pregnancy discrimination (the number one form Ryan sees in his practice), his controversial-but-legally-sound advice to disclose your pregnancy early, what rights you have if you miscarry, and how return-to-office mandates are quietly being weaponized as stealth layoffs.  Plus: AI keystroke monitoring, non-competes in the current legal landscape, and the interview questions that are totally illegal — that you're probably being asked right now. Check out Nicole's financial literacy course ⁠The Money School⁠ Find a Financial Advisor or Financial Coach from Nicole's company ⁠Private Wealth Collective⁠ Watch video clips from the pod on ⁠Money Rehab's Instagram⁠ and ⁠Nicole Lapin's Instagram⁠  Get Ryan's book ⁠Get It in Writing⁠ Here's what Nicole covers with Ryan:  00:00 Are You Ready for Some Money Rehab?  02:01 Ryan's Path: From Firefighter to Workers' Rights Lawyer  02:52 Nicole Gets Let Go From CNN  03:44 Why HR Is Not Your Friend  05:34 The Right (and Wrong) Way to Fire Someone  06:41 It's Illegal to Fire Someone for Discussing Their Pay  08:44 Building Your Paper Trail From Day One  20:07 At-Will Employment, Explained  24:50 What to Do the Moment You Get That HR Email  26:31 Don't Sign Anything When You're Fired  29:14 Severance Is Negotiable  31:54 How Contingency Lawyers Can Help (Even When You're Broke)  33:38 What Else Is on the Table: COBRA, Equity, and Non-Disparagement Clauses  37:38 Role Play: Getting Fired (What Not to Do)  39:23 Role Play: Getting Laid Off (The Right Way to Handle It)  44:09 How a Good Employer Handles the Conversation  46:34 Freelancers and the 1099 vs. W-2 Trap  49:59 The Fear of Getting Blacklisted for Asserting Your Rights  50:19 Sexual Harassment: Who's Most at Risk and What to Do  52:44 Maternity Leave and Pregnancy Discrimination  55:28 Controversial Advice: Disclose Your Pregnancy Early  59:14 What to Get in Writing When You're Pregnant  01:02:16 Your Rights If You Miscarry  01:04:59 Return to Office as a Stealth Layoff Strategy  01:08:10 AI Tracking and Keystroke Monitoring  01:12:25 Non-Competes: What You Need to Know in 2026  01:17:09 Illegal Interview Questions (Role Play)  01:23:00 Ryan Stygar's Tip You Can Take Straight to the Bank All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, or legal advice. Always do your own research and consult a licensed financial advisor or attorney before making any financial or legal decisions.

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against new mothers is still very much of thing. That sounds really bad. But There is some good news. You have more protections than you think. And today I'm joined by employment attorney Ryan Stager to tell you what they are and how to use them. Ryan's court thesis in his new book, Get It in Writing, is that most workers lose money and rights, not because the law fails them, but because they didn't even know the law existed and they didn't document anything. So today, Ryan unpacks how to negotiate severance. Severance is negotiable.

More and more I'm seeing just a month, regardless of how long you've been there. It's a pretty big, f-you from the employer. that it used to be someone who put in 20 years could expect, you know, quite a few months of severance. If you have a paper trail, we can look back at the last year to your employment and say, is there anything here that gives us leverage in the negotiation? Were you an exceptionally high performer? Did you have maybe some legal claims possibly against them that they should be aware of where they have a risk now? The rights people didn't know they had.

It's illegal to punish someone for discussing their pay. I've seen people get fired for it. But that violates the National Labor Relations Act. And in that act, it specifically protects your right to engage in what we call concerted activities for mutual protection and welfare. And that includes talks about compensation and work conditions. And the common interview questions that are totally illegal. This role involves marketing to millennials. Are you a millennial?

I don't like that question. I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money. Ryan Steiger, welcome to money rehab. Hey, thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm so glad to see you in person because I really am such a fan of the work that you do. It is so essential. You're basically helping people and you've gained such a following,

understand their rights at work so they don't get screwed. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. It really is rewarding work. It's exciting. Having been a blue collar worker before I was a firefighter, working my way up in my career to get to where I'm at now, I've seen all the instances at work where people do feel small.

They feel powerless. They feel like all these employers and businesses have all the control and you have none. And I believed that at one point, too. So it's really nice to get to stand up for people and say, no, no, no, you can have some control. You can have a voice at work. And if someone crosses the line and abuses you, there's justice to be had there. So I'm really glad to be here talking about this. Oh, my God.

I wish I knew you two decades ago when I got let go from my job at CNN. I'll never forget. I got an email from HR and also PR at the time because I was on there. Always the HR email. You see that in your inbox and just you get that sting in your belly. Like, why do they want to talk to me? Well, the crazy part is that I didn't know. I was in my 20s. And so I thought, okay, this is just a meeting. I didn't know it was the doom CC of HR that really does you in. You didn't know yet. You were still fresh in the workforce and didn't know that unsolicited emails from HR. It's not a surprise party. It's usually.

bit of an ambush. Well, you say they are not your friends because I also knew these people too. So I thought, okay, well, we've talked, we've, you know, connected. You were friendly with them? Yeah. Yeah. And then I realized they're not your friend. Yeah. And look, I'm not saying every HR person is twirling their mustache thinking, how do I screw over Nicole today? You know, it's they work for the employer. Their job is compliance and protecting the employer from liability, protecting them from risk. And that means they're protecting them from you. So a lot of people think, oh, the HR lady, she's nice, she's got a nice office. She has a couch. She lets me express my feelings that some HR people take a sort of counselor role in some businesses. But you can't forget, unless you are

signing that person's paycheck, they're not on your side. And when you ask them to take your side over the employers, you're asking them to put their career on the line. And that's just not going to happen. So I'm not saying HR is evil. I'm not saying they're necessarily outt get you all the time, although that happens, but they're not your friend. You are your friend, and you need to figure out how to advocate for yourself and not trust HR to do it for you. Yeah, we're not knocking on HR people for sure. HR people are the most lovely, but their loyalty to your point is with their employer. That is their job. Completely reasonable. And by the way, for anyone's like, says I go a little hard on HR, remember where I come from. I'm a workers' rights

lawyer, by the time I'm in a deposition with an HR rep, something has gone terribly wrong. I typically end up going against people who did cross a line. You know, I'm not saying all people do that. And I would note for the record that my little sister is a HR executive. And I love her very much. And we have wonderful conversations at family events. I would love to be a fly on the wall of those. It's pretty funny because she'll be like, hey, Ryan, just off the record.

I need to let a guy go. And here's what's going on. and I'll be like, okay, off the record, here's how you do that the right way, you know, so that no one's rights are violated. So you're not destroying someone. There's a sort of cadence that we want to see for a proper termination. So what is the right way? And then what is the wrong way? Well, I'll tell you my least favorite way is obviously an illegal termination. That's always going to rub me the wrong way. But let's say it's a legal termination. It's legal. I do not like when someone is an underperformer. And the first time they get any sense you're unhappy with them is when you fire them.

It's the first conversation. You never gave him an opportunity to correct it. You never said, hey, Nicole. Yeah, you're missing your cover letters on the TPS reports. We're doing the cover sheet on the TPS reports now. Where's the corrective action? Where's the paper trail? That helps everybody.

So I do get irritated when a boss just bottles it in, doesn't say anything, and then fires you, and that's the first time you learned there was an issue. Give people a chance. Well, so you said, like when it's legal, yes, cosign on that. a hard cosign on that. What's an example of something that doesn't sound illegal but might be in a termination? That's a really good question because I think we can pick out the obvious things. You know, you get pregnant and then three weeks later, suddenly you're fired. Never had an issue before? Little suss, right? But there's another one that's a little more common and people don't realize

it's illegal. Have you ever had like an employee handbook and they have a section in there that says discussing wages, discussing bonuses and compensation. It's private and it's a fireable offense. This is confidential information. You ever see that? Dude, who reads the employee handbook? I know a guy. I do. Party of one. I've read quite a few. Well, what happens is a lot of companies have this policy. You're not to discuss pay and they tell you it's confidential. They tell you it's unprofessional. It's illegal to punish someone for discussing their pay. Well, I go out there and I tell people to actually discuss I've been telling people this too, and there's so many good reasons to do it, but there has been this culture in the United States for so long that it's no one's business what I make.

It's taboo. You're just going to make people jealous. You're going to create problems. And I've seen people get fired for it. But that violates the National Labor Relations Act. And in that act, it specifically protects your right to engage in what we call concerted activities for mutual protection and welfare. And that includes talks about compensation and work conditions. Okay. So when I tell people to talk about their comp with their colleagues, if they're comfortable or their family or friends, then they can't come back to me and say, like, well, I heard it on money rehab to talk about my comp and I got fired because they shouldn't have been fired for that.

So here's the thing. It's like a, it's like a stop sign. The stop sign doesn't put up a magic force field and no, like a cartoon, no car can cross it. Instead, what that stop sign does, it says, hey, this is the rule. You ought to stop here. And if you choose to cross that line, well, now you're liable for a ticket or something to that effect. So you should be mindful about the culture you are in and who you can trust. I think these are great conversations to have. But do be mindful that the employer may try to do something unlawful. And if that happens, you can have recourse under the NLRA. But a paper trail helps you a lot. And we can talk more about that on that show.

I've got tons of tips on how to create paper trails that protect you. Okay. Let's definitely talk about that because you say, that you should create your own paper trail and your own diary of sorts. What do you mean by that? Just a journal of what's going on at work? That could work. So specifically what I say is from day one, you should create some kind of, I like a Google Drive, a box folder, or even a physical folder, although I prefer a digital. And this is your work folder. You put all of your onboarding documents in there. If you have a performance review, good or bad, put it in there. If you have an email that affects

your pay, your work conditions, your core duties, or it has a key deadline, something like that, save it as a PDF and keep that in there. And once a week, you should have a check-in with yourself, just five, ten minutes. Hey, any important documents for the record here, any important emails for the record here. And as you build that over time, you're not only more organized, you'll be better at your job because you can reference back to key events, which makes you credible, which is good for your job. But also, God forbid, if something goes wrong, you've got your paper trail ready to do.

to go. A lot of times people scramble after they've been put on the pip, after they've been fired, after they've had some kind of unlawful suspension. And then they try to scramble and get the documents. But I'm telling you, Nicole, that's like trying to learn to box after you've already been punched in the face. It's a little late. And you're on the back foot now. And some people might say, well, look, I'm so busy. I don't have time for all this. Look, think of yourself like an entrepreneur. You're selling your services to this company. Any entrepreneur would have a weekly check-in with themselves and say, what are my key documents? What are my key metrics? What's going on? You should take your career that seriously. And for five to ten minutes, it's so much more protection. It's worth

it. I know nobody thinks that the worst case scenario is ever going to happen. And I talk, unfortunately, over the last year, after losing my homes in the LA fires, you know, and needing all of those documents in that scenario, that was, you know, I wish I had done all of the stuff in advance. It's the same type of mentality that I now bring to these types of. of conversations, granted, I am my own boss. But thinking about these paper trails that you can create before you actually need them, it's hard to get in the habit of doing it when there isn't a disaster or you aren't reacting to something.

It's how do you get proactive in that mindset? Yeah. Well, quickly, are you guys doing okay now? Because talk about Rising Phoenix. I mean, no one can really see what's outside of this house, but it's a really gorgeous home. Thank you. So, well done. I'm sure that's really shocking to be in that position.

And then suddenly you need all this paperwork. You didn't even really know existed. Totally. And I didn't read any of the documents that, you know, the equivalent of what you're alluding to, which would be my insurance documents and all of my rights that I now know. Well, you're here. You're still standing. So snaps for you.

Thank you. That's brutal to go through something like that. Well, thank you for your previous firefighting contributions to the world. Oh, thank you. It's been a long time. It was a lifetime ago. But I will say it was one of the highest. honors of my life was working for Cal Fire, California's Fire Department.

Thank you. And I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about work ethic, teamwork, leadership, but also I did have some tough work experiences there that we cover in the book. But to go back to your original question, yes, you should be proactive with your paper trail and do not think, oh, I work hard, I don't create trouble, nothing bad is going to happen to me. Two points to that.

First of all, good employees get fired every day. That's why I have a job. I'm not a you totally had it coming termination lawyer. I'm a wrongful termination lawyer. I step in when someone who did not deserve it gets fired. And they weren't expecting it either. So you should be prepared for that worst case. Second, this paper trail protects you every day.

Someone says, Nicole, hey, you drop the ball on that client deliverable. We told you it was due today. Where is it? Wait a minute. Go back to the paper trail. You said it was due a week from now. And here's the document that proves it. So where's the miscommunication here?

You can protect yourself without that worst case. You see what I'm saying there? Well, I think what's important and what might motivate people to do this is understanding that an employer has been through this rodeo before. And so the paper trail concept is already being prepared on the other side. Oh, yes. You better believe your employer has a paper trail on you. And that's not, you know, nefarious. I'm not saying that they're staking out your house, taking pictures of you on your sick days, although that's not the craziest thing.

I've seen it happen before. Yeah, when you're in a workers' comp case, especially, they will send people to make sure you're really as hurt as you say. It's a joke that will go around online, but this really does happen where someone will make a workers' comp claim, say, oh, my back is hurt. I can't work. I need benefits, whatever it is. And then the insurance company sends their investigator out and says, that's really interesting. We got you surfing on Saturday and you seem fine. And then you squatted 400 pounds.

and now you're here with a neck brace on, so what gives? Don't do fraud. Which camera can I look at? Don't do fraud. Don't do workers' comp fraud. It's really, really bad. Don't do it. But yeah, you know, surveillance from employers is not unheard of.

It happens. I'm not saying that they're spying on your every move, but you better believe they have a paper trail that's tracking your performance and everything that's happened. But what you were just saying? Like, you're getting an email that the cover sheet wasn't there or the this or that. You're getting that email. So because you're getting it from the other.

side, they're creating what that story could be in the case of needing to let you go. So they have the upper hand in a number of places. First, they have a whole department dedicated to keeping a paper trail on you, which is why you should have your own. They control the email server. They control the intra-office chats, all of those things. So one mistake I see people make is they go, oh, man, I got fired. It was after I requested an accommodation for my pregnancy.

Everything was fine before that, but they locked me out of my email. When they fired me. So I need, Ryan, go subpoena and get the email. Like, I can do that, but we're already starting on the back foot. I mean, yeah, they're not supposed to delete evidence. They're not supposed to do that. But it happens. Important documents you need that prove your case can disappear.

So what are you supposed to do, send it to Gmail? I love c-seeing it to a personal account. I love saving it to a hard drive you control. Even I had a client just take a picture of the email. That works too. Anything that shows these key events are happening. because otherwise you're leaving the whole narrative in their hands. They control that email server.

They control those chats. So if you want to have equal footing with them, make sure you're saving key communications. But not going overboard and... Excellent. I love the nuance. Yeah, I'm not saying save every email. Like, first of all, that's going to be overwhelming.

Just the key thing. So again, it's going to be stuff that materially affects your pay, your work conditions, your schedule, your duties, things like that. Anything like a conversation about leave, a conversation about a dispute with your pay. Those are the kind of things we save. Yeah. Just the nuance is super important because some workplaces you're, if you're putting everything in a personal Gmail, then perhaps there's trade secrets or there's other stuff that you

could screw yourself inadvertently. Very well put. So, you know, that is one thing that I have seen come up. You need to be mindful of that. So if someone's sending out an email and there's a workaround to this. So if someone sends out an email and it's a lot. got a bunch of confidential trade secret stuff, but you're like, hey, this is important. Another way you can do is just your own documentation. A follow-up note to your manager.

Hey, got the email. These are the assignments that I see you have for me. These are the due dates. That's fine because you're extracting the core information without including the trade secrets and the confidentiality. I'm a big, big fan of the recap email. Recaps. We love recaps. Thank you so much for chatting. Really nice to talk about XYZ. I'm glad we're on the page and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I hope you're on the same page. Doing the paper jokes a lot of times we're not. Well, if you're not, then you call Ryan. So in the last couple of years, as you've seen, because you're up on all of this, we've seen some public terminations after

employees have made political statements on social media. And on another show that I host, Help Wanted with the editor and chief of entrepreneur magazine, we talk about this stuff a lot. And I was surprised to hear that that's not illegal. Yeah. So things are tense right now? Am I exaggerating? Things are pretty tense right now. And people have a lot to say, heck, I'm one of them. I'm on the internet every day sharing my big opinion about things. And folks are surprised to learn that an employer can fire you over a social media post. And a lot of times people say the punishment didn't fit the crime. They'll say, I just reposted a video. I didn't. It wasn't even my speech. I commented. I liked it.

I reposted something that Tucker Carlson said. And I got fired. That's not fair. Doesn't it affect my First Amendment rights. And the answer is, no, not really. The First Amendment protects you being constrained by the government. Yes. Say that louder for the people in the back. So look, our constitution. Because people are like, no, no, I have free speech in this country. Sort of. So, you know, there are things that we do as adults where we do check some of our rights at the door. That does happen. Another example would be your Fourth Amendment rights. Some people will say, hey, my office went through my work drawer. looking for a document. Does that violate my Fourth Amendment right? No, they control the space and you do check some of those privacy rights at the door. That said, with the First Amendment,

that's a contract between you and the government. It constrains the government. It says the government's not going to walk you up and throw you in prison because you criticized one of the leaders, at least we hope things stay that way. So if you say something the employer doesn't like, they're a private party. They're not constrained by the First Amendment. Now, there's some forms of speech that would be protected. We talked about discussing pay and work conditions, conversations about unionization, collective bargaining, a complaint to your manager saying, hey, we were at the company happy hour with Ted, and he was getting really handsy with me, and it made me uncomfortable. That would be a protected form of speech. So I'm not saying

none of what you say is protected, but a lot of your big opinions on politics, current events, I used to say block your boss. I still think that's a really good idea. You need to be mindful that your employer is not constrained by the First Amendment. Okay. So to be extra, extra clear, the First Amendment protects you from the government shutting you down. Yes. Or locking you up for saying something.

Yes. But not from a company who might have morals clauses. I mean, I've signed employment contracts. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I despise morality clauses. I think a lot of times they're very, very silly. Often it's an owner just playing tiny tyrant, in my opinion. My values have to be

your values, which I don't think is fair. But yeah, the First Amendment, if you're a private company and you see something that your employees doing and you don't like, most jobs in this country are at will. Forty-nine states are at-will states where the default is at-will employment. If they don't like what you're saying, they can let you go. What's the one state? Do you want to guess? If you were to guess, what would you say is the one state that's not at-will? Texas. That is so funny. I love that you went straight to Texas.

It's actually Montana. Okay. Montana is the only state. So what's interesting is 49 states are out there. Montana also, the only state the last time I checked that was running a budget surplus. So go Montana. Hey. After a certain probationary period, most employees actually require cause to be terminated.

But in every state that's not Montana, the default rule is you can be fired for any legal reason with or without cause, with or without notice. And that's, if you don't have a contract, just assume that. that's probably, you're probably at will. Okay, but even if you do have a contract. Even if you have a contract. So the reason I bring that up, Nicole, is a lot of times you'll have in your employment paywork, it'll say at will, fine. But if you do not have a contract, the default is at will. So if you're saying, wait, I don't know if I am. If you don't know, you're probably at will. So out will basically means you can be fired at any time for any reason. Any time for any

legal reason. They love to leave out the legal reason part. And I always make sure to shoehorn that right big in there because even though you can be fired for infinite number of unfair, petty, objectively unreasonable reasons and it wouldn't break the law, there are also many protected reasons where it is not lawful to fire you, even in an at-will state. My practice is primarily wrongful termination, wage that sexual harassment, things like that. We're in an at-will state. I represent almost exclusively at-will employees and I still sue for wrongful termination and when, because despite the at-will presumption, if we can show that,

usually with a paper trail, that your termination had an unlawful motive or was in retaliation for a protected activity, then we can get you recourse for that. Okay. I will say, though, I did have an employment contract. So I started 100,000 years ago in local news. And I had a contract that I left early because I, even with a contract, I was at will. Yeah. And so that actually worked in my favor.

That's fantastic. So you had a contract, was it for a term of years? Like you were guaranteed so many years of employment. And you chose to leave. I chose to leave. And I went to another job. But they couldn't, I didn't want them to stop me and say. So basically I was at in Palm Springs.

So I got a job at CNN. Yeah. Right? So like I have to go to. And then needing to get out of it, they said that I had a contract so I needed to stay. So then I found like whoever a lawyer to tell me about. this at will stuff. And then I went to CNN and then my whole department got let go. Oh my God. And then I didn't get paid. There was some clause where if I got another job, then I wouldn't

get paid out of my current contract. So they let me go mid contract there. And then I got a job at CNBC like a few weeks after because I'm so amazing. Yes you are. And so like I got, I didn't get the money that I was owed from the first deal. And then I left CNBC. My myself mid-contract, and I remember how there was one lawyer who was sort of specialized in TV stuff and paid, I paid $10,000 to, which was like all the money I ever had. Oh, my God. Just to get you out of the contract? Yeah. And then I signed a one-year non-compete. And so then at the one-year non-compete, I was this in California. Went to Bloomberg now as in New York. And I'm sure that there was a point. I mean, it's really cool to see you and where you are now. I mean, look at all of this. It's really cool.

at the time, I'm sure you felt pretty defeated. It was so scary. It was pretty scary. It was so scary because I felt like I was going to war with a needle. Yeah. It feels like I think of, I remember being a kid and seeing Peter Pan where Captain Hook fights Peter Pan. I remember he had that little dagger and Captain Hook has a whole ass sword. And I remember being a kid being like, that's not fair.

That's not fair. He's a grown up and he has a whole sword. Peter Pan's a kid. He's got a little dagger. That's not fair. That's how it feels being an employee. It feels like they're bigger, stronger. they've got more institutional knowledge, they've got experts, they've got lawyers, they've got insurance,

they've got the money, and what do you have? And it's a powerless position to be in, I will say, not glazing you, because I don't think we're recording. I hope you're really proud of yourself for what you went through and going, because I went through similar experiences where I got kicked around and lost all of my money and made huge mistakes. And I remember multiple points in my life, Nicole, where I thought, I'm never going to be a success. It's never going to, it's never going to turn out.

Like, what am I even doing? Thank God I didn't listen to those thoughts and I kept pushing and you did the same thing. I hope you take time and walk around here and think back on those experiences and where you are now. It's pretty cool. And now you're everybody's tinkerbell. I, you know what? I like to think of myself as a tinkerbell. Thank you.

It's my pixie dust. You want a little pixie dust? That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. So, okay. So if you get that dreaded email, the first time I got it from HR come and meet with us.

I didn't know that that was code for shit's about to go down. At the time, you did not know. So part of the reason for the book, which I think we put over there, a lot of employees don't know what they don't know. And they walk right into an ambush or a trap with no preparation because they don't even realize that it is a high risk situation. And so they go into the HR meeting totally unprepared. What are we talking about? Guys, what's up? You want to talk?

Oh, shit. my manager and HR is here and everyone looks really serious. And now you're fired. And people make mistakes in that meeting because they do not know what to expect. They're devastated. They're embarrassed. They're afraid. They just sign whatever paperwork gets put in front of them.

They don't ask questions. They don't negotiate any kind of severance. And then they walk out without a job with any opportunity of maybe negotiating for a better deal to give them a transition gone. They've waived their rights. And it's because they didn't know. So part of my goal, Nicole, is to get this book out in enough hands to where that doesn't happen to people anymore.

Well, because it's so scary. It's so intimidating. I cried the first time. I couldn't help myself. I don't blame you. No, bad bitches cry sometimes. Thank you. It's okay.

The baddest. No, the baddest. You know what? Being open to expressing yourself is how you stay bad. It's true. I thank you so much. But also, the mistakes that people make, how can we help them before it's too late? So the number one thing is don't sign anything that's put in front of you.

I wrote that quite a few times in the book in big bold letters. When you're in that meeting, they're going to turn into timeshare salespeople real quick. They have a bunch of paperwork. Kate, we need you to sign this. They might not even be honest with you about what it is. They might say, oh, it's just to confirm your last paycheck. Oh, it's just some exit paperwork. No big deal.

Well, the confirm your last paycheck, I think, is really suss because you want your last paycheck and you want the money. So you're signing it with the assumption that you're getting paid. There's a couple of things there, Nicole, and I'm glad that you flagged this because it's really important. One, just because they say that that is what the document says and all the document says doesn't make it true. I have seen HR people put documents in front of my clients and say, oh, it's just confirming your last check. And you look at it says, it says it says here that you confirm all the amounts are correct and you waive any right to a wage claim with them. So no, it isn't just confirming your last check. It's also a waiver of your rights. So you've got to look out for that

sort of thing. And the time to make sure your pay is correct is not in the heat of the moment while you're being fired. You've been surprised. You might be crying. You might be scared. They've been preparing for this meeting. They had a meeting before this meeting. You're on the receiving end of a surprise attack. So your job in that moment is to stay as calm as you can. Note the reason that they say you're being fired. It's okay to ask why am I being fired. Don't expect them to be 100% honest, but do note the reason that they give you. Do not start screaming at them and if the reason they give you for being fired doesn't make sense, don't demand the truth and try to extract a confession out of them there. It's going to make things way worse. Just figure out

what reason they're going to say so you know their side of the story and anything they're trying to get you to sign. Say, I'm not signing this until I have a chance to look it over and understand what I am saying. If they get angry with you, fine. What are they going to do? Fire you again. to be like, look, I'm not comfortable signing this until I take it home. Surely I can have one day to read what I'm signing before I sign it. And let them pop off and be upset if they want to be upset. But don't sign things without taking a minute to breathe and actually read it. And also, it's like a breakup.

If you start arguing with them and they've already made up their decision, it's not going to work out well. I've seen people try to like plead their case. They've already made the decision. And a lot of times the person who is delivering the news, it's a, their pay grade, they're like, look, I don't know what to tell you. Bill says you're fired. I'm just here to tell you. I have no power in this. So you can yell at me. You can threaten me. I literally cannot do anything. So you might say something you regret. You might say something that ruins your shot at severance negotiation later. Don't forget, there's still an opportunity for this to turn out okay for you. Okay. Severance negotiation. You can negotiate severance. Severance is negotiable. Look, there's going to be different experiences at different companies. Everyone's situation is

And for the most part, there is no legal requirement that they provide severance. You know, historically in the United States, it's kind of less and less now, unfortunately. It used to be the custom that you would get two to four weeks of pay for every year of service. That's not written in any rule books anywhere. That was just the sort of custom. Now more and more I'm seeing just a month, regardless of how long you've been there, which is a pretty big fuck you. Oh, can I say fuck on the show? I'm sorry.

Say it. It's a pretty big fuck you from the employer that it used to be someone who put in 20 years could expect, you know, quite a few months of severance. Now I'm seeing as little as one month. And they're saying there's no flexibility. But going back to the paper trail, if you have a paper trail, we can look back at the last year, two years of your employment and say, is there anything here that gives us leverage in the negotiation? Were you an exceptionally high performer? Did you really pull through with them sometimes? Did you have maybe some legal claims possibly against them that they should.

be aware of where they have a risk now. Because a lot of times that severance, it's not just because, oh, we like you. We want you to land on your feet. So sorry. We're downsizing. It's to get you to sign the waiver. They don't want to be looking over their shoulder like, hey, yeah, Nicole came back from maternity leave and then we fired her.

So maybe we should negotiate this now and resolve it amicably. You have leverage in that situation, but you don't know how much leverage you have if you don't have a proper paper trail going up to that moment. Yeah, it's mitigating risk for them. Yes, exactly. And I've done that for clients quite a bit where very recently I had a client. She was offered about $6,000 of severance. Not enough.

She had been there for years. She had been a top performer. Didn't really have much of a claim. You could argue there was some harassment going on. She had a work bully that she was dealing with and the company knew about it. It didn't help her very much. I was able to take those emails and say, look, we had a harassment issue. You guys didn't address.

and she gave you years of her life and look at these fantastic performance reviews and you're giving her $6,000 in this economy. Get serious. We were able to get her over 60K of severance. So it just goes to show that if you have an organized paper trail, like she did, at least some awareness of your rights, and you do not panic and sign things in the heat of the moment, you can come back and negotiate and there can be some back and forth and you can end up okay.

I'm not saying it's going to happen every time. I'm not guaranteeing that result, but the alternative is to not even try, and that's not acceptable. But can people do that without you? Go from 6 to 60? You could. People have successfully negotiated severance, but do put it on your radar that getting a experienced workers' rights lawyer to negotiate severance on your behalf could be helpful.

Is it contingency? So the way I do it, I mean, I'm airing out all my business for everybody, but this is fine. So what is it, what's custom, what should you ask for? So here's how I do it in my business. And every lawyer might do it a little differently. Some might charge you hourly, some might do a flat fee. I recognize that you just got fired and money is a little bit tight. So when I do a severance negotiation, it's contingency.

I get a percentage of whatever new money I get for you. So for easy math, if they offer you a $10,000 severance and I get in there and talk to them, I get you up to 20, I would get a percentage of the new money I got for you, not the money that was already offered. The Delta. So of the 10. Ooh, yes. I love that. Yes.

But customary contingency is, what, 30%? Usually, yeah, for a severance review, I do less. But everything is going to depend on the circumstances because some severance reviews can be very quick and very, hey, I talked to them. I presented our side of the story, showed them why they should give you more good. Others, basically, they dared me to sue them. Or there was a lot of contention and a lot of back and forth. So it'll depend on the circumstance. But really the high level for everyone to know who's listening.

When you are in that position, remember, maybe getting a professional to look over that paperwork is a good idea. A lot of them are going to be more affordable than you think. I know you're thinking, I just lost my job. I don't know if I can afford a lawyer. Ask them if they do contingency arrangements and ask what those structures look like because there's more help available than a lot of people realize. And what else do people forget that's negotiable? So Cobra, if they have testing schedules, if they have equity in their companies, there are nondes. There are non-disparagement clauses.

There's all sorts of stuff that goes into this final thing. There's a lot of things. So there's the severance amount of money that we look for. Obviously, a big basket of cash. No one's upset about that. I'm so glad you brought up COBRA because people leave thousands of dollars a month on the table when they don't think about that. So when you leave that group health plan, COBRA gives you the opportunity to stay on that plan. Really, really important, especially like if you have kids, if you have a condition that needs ongoing care or you

just don't know where your coverage is going to come from because you lost your job. This is really valuable. The problem is COBRA, the United States is such an interesting place. The employer can actually keep you on that plan and have you pay up to 102% of the premiums. They can charge you the whole premium amount plus a 2% administrative fee. So weirdly, it can be more expensive. But if you go in and negotiate, you can get them to pay part of or that whole premium and you can get it extended for longer. Longer than the initial offer. Longer than the initial offer. I've seen the most disgustingly pitiful offers. I've seen like one month of Cobra and you pay the whole premium. I've seen 18 months of Cobra, but all paid by the company. Like there's really a lot of flexibility

there. What's the max for Cobra extension? The most that I've seen is 36 months for some very unique situations, but I would caution people that that's not typical. And what about vesting schedules for company equity. Those are interesting. You can certainly, again, it's all negotiable. And I have negotiated those for some very high earning senior level people who got let go. Personally, I usually, it depends on the company. Usually I'm like, dude, if we can just get you more severance, I mean, that's better than stock and XYZ company that's a startup that has quote unquote tons of potential. I mean, you're hoping that it's your lottery ticket when this thing IPOs or whatever. It depends on the situation, Nicole. Because there's tax implications too. There's a lot to

if you have options and you actually have to pay them. I've done it before. I'm happy to do it when it's really important to someone. But a lot of times I say, hey, zoom out. I know you have an emotional investment in Squiggly or whatever your startup is and you have all this stock. We don't know if squiggly is going to be the next Google. Probably not. So do talk to a financial advisor, talk to your family and think, hey, how aggressive do I want to be negotiating this vesting schedule? negotiating these options, is it really worth the squeeze? Because a lot of times you might say, hey, maybe I let that go and I just want more severance up front. It depends. If they're though at a Google or a bigger company. If you're at a Google or a bigger, get it. Yeah. So that's,

is that beyond your scope? Is there a special employment corporate lawyer that you should be talking to? You should be talking to a financial advisor. Because here's the thing, I can help you with the negotiation and I can help press the levers to get you what you want. But you need to make sure that that is a prize worth fighting for. And for that, you need to talk to your tax person, a financial advisor, because they will know how valuable that prize is. My job is to get you what you want, but make sure you know what you want when you talk to me. Yeah. We've got to work together on this one. Yeah. That's a good. RSUs are implications. That's actually a really good idea, Nicole. So someone in that position who's like, hey, I've got all this stock and Apple and I've got a severance come up.

They should talk to someone like you first. I'm not qualified to say, hey, here's really how these shares and this vesting schedule matches up against your broader financial goals. That's not my job. My job is to go to people who do not want to pay you, who are lying about the reason they fired you, and convince them that it is in their best interest to take care of you. So before I go out and fight, yeah, you got to make sure you want it. Give the people what they want. Yeah, there we go. Let's kick some ass.

Dream team. Let's go. Let's go. Let's fucking go. Okay, I want to. Oh, quick disclaimer. I just made up a company, Squiggly, for the example. If it's L.A., I'm sure there's a company that's squiggly and it's the next big thing in AI or whatever. I just made it up. If there is a real squiggly out there, I'm not talking about them. In a firing situation, so I would love to do like, what do you say when HR?

I love this. I hope you're going where I hope you're going with this. Tell me where to go. Fire me, Nicole, fire me. Should I fire you? Fire me right now. Okay. Ryan, thank you so much for coming into this meeting.

I know we just put it on your schedule for first thing Monday morning. I just wanted to thank you for all of your efforts here at our company. We're going to have to go in a different direction with your position. What do you mean different direction? We're going to have to replace your position with somebody else. I have a baby on the way. I just bought a new car. I just moved.

What am I going to do? I really understand that. How could you do this to me? Where do you get? Get off, Nicole. How could you do this to me? Oh, man. It's not funny. It's horrible. All right, no, but in all seriousness, when someone says that going back, don't guilt trip them, don't give them all the reasons why you shouldn't be fired because clearly you have already

made the decision and begging and pleading and guilt tripping isn't going to fix it. Instead, very calmly, I'm just going to say, can I ask why this is happening? Yes, we are, fuck, I need to think of this story first. Hold on. Let me, let's go back. If you have to think about it, it ain't true. See, this is suspicious. And you know what, folks, I think Nicole's lying about the reason I'm fired.

She doesn't seem to have her story straight. Okay, hold on. Redue. Okay. Ryan, thank you so much for joining this meeting. I have our friends at HR here. Me and my whole family depend on this paycheck for our livelihood. I'm glad to be here too.

Thank you so much for that. You have absolutely done an amazing job at your role at this company. actually going to need to eliminate this position altogether. And so the whole position's being eliminated? The whole position is going to be eliminated. But we're so grateful for your time here. We have a little bit of paperwork just so you can get your final paycheck and everything else to help you and your family out. But we really appreciate your service here. For a brief moment, I forgot I'm actually not being fired. I actually started to panic a minute. And I realized this is role play. So good acting.

Thank you. No, I would say, all right. Obviously, this is a surprise to me. Can I ask what's going on? Like, why is my position being eliminated? We just feel like we're generally downsizing, and it's no longer relevant to the core of our business at this point in the business cycle. So you're really good at the corporate HR speak. And I mean that as a compliment to your acting.

So I want to ask that question calmly and just say, why is this happening? And I understand that they may not be being totally honest with me. That is possible, Nicole. But I want to hear what their side is, which is why I asked very calmly, can I, can you please explain to me why this is happening? The next question I'm going to ask is going to give me an idea of the scope of what's happening. Okay. And again, I just need to know what their side is. We can look in and see if they're telling the truth or not later.

Is anyone else being affected by this? That's confidential, Ryan. So we're only focusing on you and the next steps here right now. I got some information there. So they're saying it's general business downsizing. They're not willing to say, okay, this is actually affecting the entire department or this is company-wide. They didn't want to share it with me. So I can take that and say, hey, they weren't really giving me a clear answer.

That's fine. But we have some paperwork here. It's just all really standard paperwork. And we just want to make sure that you get your funding. Paycheck, Severance, a couple of weeks of Cobra that will really help you out. And so we've put together a really generous package here. And you just have to sign it and you can read through the rest of it later. Okay.

Obviously, I'm surprised by this. You know, it's a big change. I'm going to take this home and read it over and then I'll sign it and I'll reach out to you guys. But I want to take this home first. Okay. I want to make sure that you get your final paycheck, of course. I know your family's amazing. And I've loved getting to know them and spending time with them.

I respect that, Nicole, thank you. But this does affect my rights. And this is a surprise. So just let me take this home and read it over. Okay. Sounds good. And look, you were so nice. You didn't threaten me or anything.

I've seen it go way worse than that. But again, what I would cost- To threaten to sign the paperwork? Threaten. Yeah, saying you won't get severance. You won't get your pay. You forfeit this. You forfeit that.

I've seen it go pretty badly. So what I want to remind people is just stand firm. Just look, ask for the reason. they fired you. If they're saying, oh, it's lay off, something like that. Ask, is anyone else being affected? Just let your future lawyer know what they said. I just want to know what their side of the story is. Try not to black out. Yeah, try not to black out. Stay calm. Just ask, why is this happening? Remember their response. Is anyone else being affected? Remember that response. And then when they say, we're going to sign, just say, all right, this is a big change. I need time to look this over.

And then you kind of insisted, and I said, I appreciate that. I want to take it home and read it. If someone gets angry, I'm going to say, look, this is a big decision. It affects my rights. I would like to look it over. And if they continue to threaten me, just say, look, I'm, I've made my decision. I'm not signing anything until I have a chance to read it. I'm not going to do it right here. If they threaten to take away the severance, that's a game time decision you have to make.

I have had employers say, okay, well, no deal then. And I've gotten the severance anyway. But only through a lawyer. Yeah, look, you're going to have to weigh the situation yourself. I will say it is much more likely you will regret signing something you do not read and do not understand in the heat of the moment than signing it because someone got angry at you and it was hard to sit in that discomfort for a moment. Can we flip rolls? Sure. Because look, I run a business.

You know, I have employees. And if I have to be in this situation, I want to handle myself in the best way possible. And sometimes you don't really know. So our intentions are there. What should you say? It would be the best. Leading with kindness is fantastic. And it's funny, I could see you're a good boss because you were struggling to be mean to me in the role play.

So the way I would handle it is, yeah, you'd bring in, Nicole, thank you for being here. This is a tough conversation that we don't want to have because you've done great. But we have to eliminate the role. It is a business decision. It is nothing to do with your work performance. And we want to make sure that you can land on your feet. So we have some paperwork here. We've got a severance.

to help give you some runway, you're absolutely welcome to apply for unemployment and anything you need in the support phase, let us know. Things like letters of rec, you know, stuff like that. I think as the employer, if you eliminate someone for a business reason like that, valid, but try to help them out. If someone is hiring in your network, see if you can give them a letter of rec or at least tip them off. And don't fight their unemployment. I see that happen a lot too. It's petty. Really? What if I say I would love to look this over with a lawyer before I sign anything? Fine. It is their right to do so. And I'd say, yeah, absolutely, look it over with whoever you need and let us know. But we would like to know within, you know, two weeks, something like that. It is fine.

And what if I start crying in the fetal position? I'm very empathetic, Nicole. So the way I would handle that is I would offer a tissue and say, I am so sorry, I can't imagine how hard this is for you. I hate that I have to give you this news. But we're going to get through this and I'm going to support you any way I can. Cool. That's how a nice employer does it.

A kind employer. A nice employer keeps people that are not a fit. A kind employer, I think. has to make these difficult decisions. If someone is seriously struggling in a role and they're not thriving and you're keeping them on just because they're not doing well, but I don't want to fight. Do them a favor. Give them a chance to go somewhere where they're going to be a better fit. But there's a right way and a wrong way to cut someone loose.

And as an employer myself, you cannot forget that a lot of people who work with you, they're paying all their bills with this job. This is their sole source of income. So if it's not an emergency, termination should be planned. There should be communication and there should be an off ramp for the employee. Like don't throw someone into the jungle without any support. Same goes with freelancers. So freelancers are interesting because a lot of times, I work with freelancers all the time. And I'm one of many clients to them.

So if it's not working, it's just not working, you know. They don't have the same rights. That one I don't worry about so much. Like I'll use freelancers for different things. And I'm not their boss. They're an independent contractor if you're doing it correctly. So I don't worry about that so much. But if this has never happened, but if a freelancer were to come to me and say, you're my only client, I don't know what I'm going to do.

This is so hard. I would still do what's right for my business, but I would probably say, look, you did great. Let me introduce you to some friends who might need your services. So if you're a freelancer, these productions aren't in place. So when we say freelancer, just to make sure we got the nomenclature totally correct, I'm assuming you are a 1099 independent contractor. An independent contractor, we call them a 1099 because their wages are reported, not on a W2. That's for employees. It's reported on an IRS form 1099.

That means you are an independent business person in enterprise for yourself. You are not an employee. And if someone calls you a 1099 employee, something is typically, there's a mismatch there. A 1099 should truly be independent. They do not get the protections of the Fair Labor Standards Act. They don't get a lot of the protections that employees have because they're not in police. They're business owners, basically.

So I have had a lot of cases where the employer had employees as a 1099, even though they were really employees. By itself, it's okay. But then things start happening. People aren't getting their pay right. They aren't getting a minimum wage. They aren't getting overtime. They aren't having workers' comp coverage.

And a lot of complications can spiral out of that. So it's important to classify people correctly. But a lot of times also the employer simply doesn't know. So we try not to, it depends on the situation. I try not to jump to the worst case. A lot of times it's very fine for an employee to come and say, hey, I'm 1099, but you control my schedule. You control my uniform.

You tell me when to show up, how to work, what to do. I don't have the autonomy. And you're my only employer. So I'm pretty sure I'm an employee. We should probably reclassify this. That's a fair conversation to have. I mean, they do have better tax treatments. So if you want to reclassify that, then if you are actually a 1099, yes.

So one way this conversation goes off the rails sometimes is I'm not saying 1099 is bad. It's great. It's only bad if you are not and you don't want to be. A lot of, I've dealt with employees who got paid sub minimum wages because they were told they were a 1099. They believed they were, even though in actuality they were an employee. And because of the way the pay worked out, they were earning less than a minimum wage. So you do need to flag it as something that can be abused. But if you are a true 1099, it's your business, run it how you want. And you get those tax benefits and you can set your prices and you decide who to

work with. But you're a business owner in that sense. If you get fired or laid off, who should actually escalate this to a lawyer? Because I think the biggest fear that people have is that if I escalate this to an attorney and I become that litigious person, then I'm never going to get a job. The world is small, life is long. I'm so glad you brought this up. So there's so much to unpack there. Can we talk first about the sort of fear of if I assert my rights, if I sue or if I get in there with a demand letter, whatever it is, no one's going to want to work with me. Believe it or not, the most common time I see that is

sexual harassment cases. It's really sad. So we're going to get real for a minute. The sexual harassment cases are very heartbreaking because more often than not, it is a woman in her 20s or 30s. This is the most common sexual harassment victim. Men can be sexually harassed too, and I helped them. But this is the most common. Woman in her 20s or 30s, the harasser is someone who has some influence, maybe some power, and she is afraid to speak up because this influential person can theoretically block her from other employment opportunities. And that's the kind of shit that really makes me upset. So someone is using that power to control and overstep boundaries on another person. I will say this. Every situation is unique. You should talk to a lawyer carefully about your options

before doing anything. I have never had a client. I've represented a lot of people in my ears. I've never had a client say, Ryan, I can't get a job because I sued. I can't get a job because I stood up to John who was sexually harassing me. Here's what I want to put out there. And I hope people are listening carefully to this. If someone is using their position of authority at work to sexually harass you in some way, it is only going to get worse if you don't find a way out of that situation or find a way to assert yourself. Simply trying to let it pass is not going to make it better.

And if you do assert yourself and if you go to a job and they somehow find out that you stood up to an abuser and beat them or whatever it was, and they don't hire you on that basis, they're telling on themselves. They're actually doing you a favor. Do you really want to work for someone who sees you tolerating abuse as a good thing? Yeah, but they're never going to tell you. They'll never tell you that. But I will say it's a rational fear. I respect the fear. I get it. It's the amount of fear people have.

have is not proportional to the threat in my experience. And everyone will come to me. I understand there will be people saying, I stood up and I got blacklisted. I believe that person. I believe that experience. I have a pretty big sample size. Thousands of clients, hundreds of cases. I really don't see that many people having their lives ruined because they had a case. More often than not, my clients are happy they stood up for themselves. And I am happy that you are a male feminist. Thank you. You have to be. Thank you so much. There are a lot of issues that women experience in the workplace that are inherently unique. Yeah.

Maternity leave. So if we're talking to the women listening now, there are obviously a lot of workplace issues surrounding maternity leave. I'm just going to say this and we're going to definitely, we have to bleep it out, but I must tell you this, that one of my girlfriends, whose brother is got pushed out of. by Are you serious? During maternity leave. How? Which is fucking crazy.

You would think that's someone who's untouchable. Based on the relationship. Well, it just goes. And I'm glad you brought that up because it shows that no one is untouchable. A lot of people think, well, I'm very high ranking. I've been here a long time. I'm very close with the CEO. If she can get pushed out, anyone can get pushed out.

I've seen co-founders get pushed out. On maternity leave or after maternity leave. or after maternity leave. And no one is ever going to tell you that's why, of course, because. I'm glad you brought that up twice now, so I want to stick on it for a minute. A lot of people will say, Ryan, I don't think I have a case. Why? Because the employer says that they're firing me and it's just downsizing.

So that's it. It's at will and they said it's downsizing. And I just happened to, you know, be on maternity. I know. I said, look, I've never had, it's never going to happen. I've never had an employer say, oh, yeah, we fired your client because she's pregnant and we didn't want to deal with it. That is not going to happen. They're always going to say it's a performance issue.

It's a business need. It's something else. They're not going to say, oh, yeah, we fired her because Bill wanted to sleep with her and she said no. That doesn't happen. But a lot of people wrongfully think, well, if they didn't give me the real reason, if I can't get them in a confession, then I have no case. Not so. Imagine for a minute you robbed a bank. You robbed it.

And the police pull you over. Say, hey, you match the description. We saw you fleeing the bank. We're taking you in for questioning. And you say, officer. that wasn't me. Do they look at you and say, oh, so sorry for the misunderstanding on your way. I'm so sorry.

No, they say, okay, that's your side of the story. We're going to compare it against the evidence and you see who's like. I do the same thing. I get lied to for the reasons my people are fired all the time. And my job is to stitch together the paper trail. What is the broader narrative here? You're telling me that Nicole was fired for poor performance. I don't see a single bad performance review.

I see her telling you she's pregnant. And three weeks later, suddenly she's written up for quote unquote, horror communication. A little vague, don't you think? I don't need a confession. But with a good paper trail, we can stitch together the narrative of what really happened and we can still assert your rights. Okay. So what should that paper trail be if you got pregnant, if you're taking maternity leave, if you're having a discussion around maternity. I love this question because this is controversial advice and there are going to be people who hear this advice and get very angry with me. It always happens. But I am coming from a place of love and I am trying to help and I am a

professional who knows what he is talking about. Do not hide your pregnancy. A lot of people want to keep it private, especially in that first trimester. They might want to tell their friends and they say, I don't want my boss to know why. I've got this promotion coming up. I've got this going on. And I don't want that to get messed up. You're going to start showing eventually or someone is going to hear it through the grapevine. I would much rather you protect yourself and establish your protected class as early as possible. That way, if they do something, They suddenly deny that promotion you had coming that you had totally earned. They lay you off, whatever it is.

At least we can show that they knew you were pregnant because the law, those discrimination laws, they don't protect you unless the employer knew or had reasonable notice, like reasonably should have known that you were pregnant. So if you're not showing and then the manager kind of catches wind of it and decides they're going to pull back on something, you don't have a paper trail protecting yourself. So interesting. It's better to have it and not need it than to. to need it and not have it. But you also are, I mean, and I don't know if you want to talk about this on air or not, but you are, you're, and you're. I'm having a baby boy.

Don't worry. It's fine. I'm not holding my cards close to my best. The three month mark, too. You're before the. Yeah, we're about, we're about to cross it. We're right on the cusp of that three month mark. It's a tricky time because, you know, you don't want to talk about it in case.

something happens, but then, you know, in case something happens at work and you don't talk about it and they hear about it, then you could be shooting yourself in the foot. So there's a couple of scenarios that come up. One, this is actually from a real case. I don't remember if this made it in the final draft of the book, but I've had clients where they told their friends, made it through the grapevine, went to management. And then management decided to do something shitty based on that information. I've even had management get angry saying, how long were you thinking of keeping this from us? assonine behavior, not acceptable, but that is a worst case that could happen, where they feel like you were concealing it or something. And ultimately, they don't want to deal with the leave, even though it's your legal right.

Some of them might have very outdated, misogynistic, disgusting ideas around pregnancy. And I will tell you, Nicole, pregnancy discrimination is the number one form of discrimination I deal within my office. More so than anything else. It's more so than race, more so than age. Pregnancy is the most frequent I see. What's crazy is I wrote an article for Forbes during the pandemic or right after the pandemic that showed that women who were raising money, who were pregnant and you couldn't see because everybody was on Zoom, were actually more successful during that period and got raises at a

higher rate than typically because you weren't able to physically see it. Isn't that, I mean, look, I'm not going to say correlation as causation, but I believe that study. It's true. And we talked a little bit earlier about inherent bias people have sometimes. A lot of times it's not even a manager who's like out to get you. It's not like they hate pregnancy and hate women and they're an anti-feminist, whatever it is. They have a business to run and they may not be aware of the law. That's the other thing you have to remember.

A lot of managers don't have a clue about employment law. They never heard of FMLA leave. They never heard of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. And so they're thinking, oh gosh, Nicole's going to be out for her maternity leave. I need to plan for that. So I guess we'll pull her off these big projects, and that's just how the ball bounces. They may not realize that they have an obligation to engage in some interactive process with you. They may not even be aware that you have a right to some kind of accommodation or protected leave.

So what do you get in writing if you're pregnant? The way I would recommend doing it for most people, again, I'm sensitive to everyone's unique situations, but for most people, an announcement to management first. I understand that it feels unfair. You want to share with your friends. in the workplace first, tell management first. Hey boss, so happy to announce I am pregnant. I'm excited to continue working.

I will want to discuss my accommodations and upcoming leave at some point. When can we have that conversation? Boom. So it's coming from a I want to plan together so that everybody is taking care of. An invitation to collaborate with them is an invitation to engage in what I call the interactive process. And that is a legal term. They have a legal obligation to work with you for things like what kind of accommodating.

will you need while pregnant. You're going to have more medical appointments. You might need to be getting more bathroom breaks. Maybe you need water by your station. There's a lot of things that pregnant workers need to keep doing normally. And I want to flag this real quick before we move on. Some employers, I've dealt with them, I've sued them, get angry and do not want to accommodate pregnancies.

They say it's special treatment. It is not special treatment. It is the removal of barriers to equal treatment. Someone who is pregnant. Say that one more time. giving accommodations to a pregnant worker is not special treatment. It is the removal of barriers to equal treatment. And I can prove that because she is going through something.

No one else is going through. She's 3D printing a human being inside of her freaking body. That's a lot. And that puts a strain. She is literally competing in an athletic event here. A marathon a day. Yeah. It's truly.

And it's something that the other workers do not have to struggle with or mitigate or deal with day to day. So when we say, hey, Nicole gets a stool here, well, why don't I get a stool? Are you 3D printing a baby inside you? No. Okay. We're removing barriers to equal treatment and we're giving Nicole a hand. Okay. So tell your boss if you are in a bigger company or tell HR, I suppose?

I would tell both. Look, the paper trail protects you. And again, I understand there are a million reasons people might have for not wanting to disclose, not wanting to disclose early. I am sensitive to it and I respect it. If you have a really compelling reason, you don't want to, it's your life. I'm not telling you how to live your life. But if you're asking me, as a workers rights lawyer, Ryan, what gives me the most legal protection?

Disclose early, disclose in writing, keep a copy for yourself. The biggest emotional concern that women have and I was there myself is that there is a higher risk of miscarriage in the first trimester. So let's play this out. and get uncomfortable. So I write a note to my boss and to HR and I say I'm, you know, eight weeks pregnant. And I'd love to figure out what our plan is for my pregnancy and maternity leave and the rest of it. And then I miscarry. What are my rights if I miscarry? It's a heartbreaking situation. I understand it. Because part of it is you have this excitement. Oh my gosh, I'm pregnant. I'm going to have a baby. This is great.

And it's one of those things like when you get really good news. Sometimes you almost don't want to tell people because it's delicate. You don't want to jinx it. We say. And with the pregnancy, you're like, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't want to deal with that heartbreak, that disappointment. And what do I say to them when I asked for leave and now I don't need it anymore? Here's the deal.

If you come back and say, hey, really bad news. Pregnancy didn't take. So I just wanted to put that on your radar, guys. It's a good time to ask for some sick leave, some time. and you're at least telling them where you are at. You know, a lot of employers are going to be sensitive to that and work with you. California is unique and that it actually has protections for a unsuccessful pregnancy

where you can actually get some protected time off for that. Because recovering mentally as much as physically from that, it's critical. And thank goodness you started that conversation early and you can still be protected sometime after that event as well. Some employers might not react well to the pregnancy and the miscarriage. They might not want to give you the sick leave, but you've got a paper trail now showing your protected status. So there is some protection for pregnancy loss.

In California. That's not fair. Only California. I'd have to check for the other states. It's somewhere between sick leave bereavement, short-term disability. Yeah, it's new. And so what California will do is it will give you. you some protected time off to recover from an unsuccessful pregnancy, which, thank goodness.

I mean, California is very progressive in that light in that we've had some big steps forward the past couple of years. The Pregnant Workers Fairness Act in 2022, fantastic piece of litigation, because before that, in most states, you could only get accommodations for your pregnancy if you could show it was a quote unquote medically difficult pregnancy. And you were basically protected by the ADA in that situation. But then lawmakers, probably a couple of feminists and mostly strong women said, hey, pregnancy is hard. It's not hard just because there's an added complication. People need help before that.

So we got the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. California then around that same time realized, hey, recovering from a failed pregnancy is brutal, mentally and physically. There should be protected time off for that, too. So we are seeing some progress. I know right now times are a little tough on that particular front, but the past five years have been good for pregnancy rights at work. I want to ask you, Lightning,

round style, a few hot button issues in the workplace these days. So return to office. Yes. Some say that companies are using return to office mandates as a stealth layoff strategy. What? They would never. Really? Sneaky. Walk us through what that actually looks like legally. Well, so let's set the scene. That does happen. And you're not crazy. I'm going to validate a lot of people. Yeah, you worked remotely for a long time. Everything was fine. Now HR is a broken record. They're just telling you, it's our understanding. This position has done 100% in person. You say, well, wait, I've done this for years remotely. What changed? It's our understanding it needs to be. I've dealt with this so many times, Nicole. They just repeat it. So a lot of times they're trying to force people to quit. That does happen. A lot of times they're just trying to exert more control. If you are just a regular employee, no particular circumstance. circumstances like a disability or anything like that, you don't have a lot of options. It just is what it is. They as the employer have the right to control the terms of your employment.

However, I see this a lot with disability discrimination cases. I had a client who was actually had a cancer diagnosis. She was working remotely just fine. Company said, everyone has to come in office now. She says, well, hold on. I'm immunocompromised. I can get sick very easily right now. I'm going through my treatments.

I need to stay remote. And they say, nope, remote doesn't work, has to be done in an office. And then they gave her an ultimatum, say you're full time in the office or you're fired. She tried to stick through it. It was exhausting and brutal, worst couple months of her life. Couldn't do it. Ultimately, she was fired. And I talked about this one in the book.

Here's how that case shook out legally. Employers said, hey, it was at will. We had the right to control the terms of employment. She wasn't fired because she needed leave for her cancer. She was fired because she refused to come into the office full time. And then I said, well, wait a minute. She did this job just fine remotely for a year. No problems.

Now all of a sudden she is a cancer treatment. She needs time and she's immunocompromised and you can't accommodate her. You can't have a conversation and let us continue being remote. So in that case, she had extra protection. She had a medical condition. She had a disability. So we could characterize the remote work as a form of accommodation for her. And when they took that away without so much as talking to her, and when they tried to say, oh, it's business necessity, but we have a year of evidence that it's not a business necessity, then she had some more leverage in that situation.

So is it just if you're sick or what about if you've moved or you can't get child care? Is there any requests? Child care is going to be a gray area. It'll depend on a few issues. In California, I can get that protected with child care. But if you are in a state that's a little less robust with its protections, like Texas or Louisiana, I would say, talk to a lawyer about your specific situation, but it is possible. Just know that the default rule, and this is the bad news, always try to deliver good news. The bad news is the default rule,

if they want to go full time in office again, they can do it. And if you've moved, if you've changed your life, because you depended on the remote work, more often than not, that's not going to be enough. There's going to need to be some protected reason. What about a couple of months ago for installing keystroke monitoring software on employees' computers? Is that legal? All right. So AI tracking, keystroke tracking. I mean, that's akin to productivity trackers. I don't love them, but for the most part, they're within their rights to do that. I mentioned at the beginning of the show that you do check some of your rights at the door when you engage in certain activities.

One of those would be work. You're going to give up some of your privacy rights. They have the right to see what you're doing during those work hours, what you're doing on company property, what you're doing with company property, what you're doing with company time. What you're emailing? Yes, especially if it's a server they control or if you're doing it. while holding yourself out is working for them. Or what about a company phone? Your messages.

Oh, my God. Ryan, are you okay? Don't want, don't watch porn on the company phone. And I'm doing this because it's happened more often than you'd think. I've had situations where people downloaded it. I've had people film it on the company form. Do not do porn on the company phone, please. Important PSA.

Sorry, I just did this like an exasperated dad. Just what are you people doing? Assume, look, I'm not saying that employers are in real time monitoring every text, every message on your company devices, but assume that everything you do on those devices is discovered. So how has that, no pun intended, screwed people? Oh, that's, well, I didn't take their case. You know, they said, you know, someone came to me.

They were very upset about how they had been treated at work and it was unfair. And then I found out that they had actually violated company policy pretty egregiously by by filming pornographic content on a company phone. So in that situation, no, I'm not going to take your case because, look, maybe there was some bullying and harassment going on, but they had a valid reason to terminate you. So try not to screw. I keep saying screw. I can't even think of another word after that.

It could always get worse, Nicole. Try not to fuck up. So even if they have legitimate claims, if you violated terms like that, or otherwise, then it's hard to get a lawyer. It's a balancing act. So it'll depend on the competing claims here. If you have like a wishy-washy, like, hey, your boss was kind of bullying you. Maybe it was harassment.

Maybe not. But then I have a very egregious policy violation here. The scale does this and I can't do much for you. But I'm glad you brought this up. And I haven't forgot about your AI question. We'll go back. You do not have to be a perfect employee. I have helped a client once.

I don't want to disclose too much. I want to protect privacy. We can also bleep it out. Yeah. So basically what my employee did is he worked in the hospitality industry and he worked nights. And it was known that nights were lonely. They were boring. He would whip out his phone and scroll TikTok at night. Okay. He got written up for that like five or six times. They were like, hey, we know it's boring. We know there's not going on. We really don't like you scrolling TikTok on that. He had all these writeups for it. Not just him. Other employees got dinged for this too. It was known that that night shift was boring. You would scroll TikTok. And if you got caught, you get in trouble. Fast forward, my client reports missing wages to the employer. They say, tough shit. He goes, okay, well, I'm going to go to the labor commissioner. Files a report with the labor commissioner.

The employer gets notice of that report suddenly decides, you know what, you're fired for scrolling TikTok. Do you really think he was fired for scrolling TikTok? Do you think maybe the report to the labor commissioner had something to do with that? Yeah. And so those bad write-ups actually helped us out a lot because at first glance, you're thinking, wait, you did violate company policy multiple times and they fired you. It looks legit. But then we say, well, wait a minute.

He's gotten in trouble for this before, but it wasn't a terminable offense. They didn't love it. They say, hey, knock it off with the TikTok thing. But it was never something people got fired for it. And other people got written up for it too. Suddenly, you go to the labor commissioner saying, hey, I'm not being paid all my wages. And now the TikTok's an issue, highly suspicious. So there's a balancing act, Nicole.

If you have claims, and a big violation of policy, that's a problem. If you have just some dings in your record, but we have a pretty clear cut case here, you don't have to be a perfect employee to have a claim. What about non-competes? The FTC, of course, tried to ban them now. It's a mish-mosh hodgepodge amongst the states.

I have signed a non-compete myself. Yeah. What should somebody know about signing a non-compete in 2026? Oh, wow. All right. Well, so for the FTC thing, by the way, there was a conversation for a while that the FTC found that non-competes cost the U.S. economy, something like $300 billion a year.

They also estimated that one in five American workers is subject to a non-compete. Oftentimes they don't know it. You get those big packets when you sign up for a job and you just, you sign like a hundred times in there. You don't realize you've signed a non-compete. And non-competes. Oh, not your exit packets. So you're, no, no, when you first sign up. So I've seen both.

Okay. Let's do first things first. because I'm going to talk about what happens when you exit as well. So a lot of people don't know that they've signed that non-compete at the beginning. Sometimes it gets front-loaded. That becomes a problem. And this is why the FTC looked at banning non-competes in employment, because it limits your mobility. It means when you have a boss that really becomes an ogre towards you or you're being paid well below market and you want to move on to another opportunity, you can't.

Or even worse case, you move on and then you get some kind of cease and decision. or you get threatened with a lawsuit because you've moved on. And that is what a non-compete can do. So what a non-compete can do is it can prohibit you from seeking employment at another place. It can even prohibit you from starting your own business if it's in the space. Now, just because an employer puts a non-compete on paper and makes you sign it, doesn't mean it's automatically enforceable. Can you redline that going in?

You could try to negotiate it. I don't know how open they would be. It would depend on the position. But here's what you need to know if you're going to try to do something. like that. Okay. A non-compete is not automatically enforceable. There's factors we're looking for. First of all, how long does the non-compete last for? I've seen one year after employment. I've seen two years after employment. Anything past that, it's less likely to be enforced. So we need a limited time. A non-compete cannot be indefinite. And the longer at last, the more likely, hey, maybe there's an enforceability concern here. There also needs to be reasonable geographic constrictions. They can't say, all right, you have a non-compete. You have a non-compete. Pete. You can't work for any company in the Western Hemisphere that's in our space. That's much too large. There needs to be reasonable geographic limits. I've seen 50 mile radius. I've seen 100 mile radius. Statewide, I've seen in some cases. It depends on the situation.

The other concern is scope. They can't say you can't get any job anywhere or start any business anywhere. They have to say, look, we are Coca-Cola. You cannot go work for PepsiCo. You can't go work for free delay. You can't work for our competitors. But if you decide you're going to go start a pillow company, you're not going to be a Coke or Coke like company, like a soda company. That could be something covered by the non-compete. So I signed a non-compete when I left CNBC that I couldn't work for Bloomberg or Fox business for a year. And then at the year and one day mark, I started at Bloomberg. Fantastic. Good for you. I mean, just look, I haven't seen that document based on your description of it sounds valid to me. But there is one more thing I want to flag. Some states

have banned non-competes in employment. California is one of them. I believe Oklahoma is one. If you could believe it, kind of random. There's a few of them. So you can just, if you sign it, you could just be like, well, it would be unenforceable in California. So California's business and professions code, 16600 prohibits non-competes in employment. That doesn't mean a non-solicit can't be enforceable. But if you work for KFC in California and you decide, hey, I'm going to start my own fried chicken company. They can't use a non-compete to stop you. Interesting.

Even if you signed it. Even if, well, again, I'd have to see what you signed and what's in there. There might be some. I'm about to nerd out so hard. There could be a severability clause where some parts are valid, even though other parts are invalid. But the point is, those non-competes wouldn't be enforceable in California. So right now, if I had signed that non-compete that I did almost 15 years ago in New York,

and I wanted to work at one of those two places, Bloomberg, Fox business in California. I could do that. I would have to see your situation a little bit more. I'm not going to comment on the specific because I haven't seen the document. And I wish I knew more about your industry, but I don't. But basically, if I signed a non-compete in a different state, it wouldn't be enforceable in the state where non-competes are not valid. Possibly. Okay. I can't say definitively. Sorry, Nicole. Spoken like such a true lawyer. I know. Hey, be very suspicious of lawyers with firm answers. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So can we do a little role playing? Okay. So I will put those acting skills to work. Let's go.

So you clap every time I ask you a question in a job interview simulation. That's illegal. Okay. Am I underdressed? I wouldn't apply if we were going to do a job interview. You're great. So let's say you're interviewing. Yes, I do, Ryan, for a digital marketing role. Oh, fun. So I'm going to be interviewing you. And if I ask you a question, that's illegal, you clap. Okay. Hey, Ryan. It's so wonderful to meet you. Thanks so much for coming in. I love digital marketing. I'm so happy to be here, Nicole. Thanks for inviting me to this job interview. So where do you live? I live here in town. What are your hobbies? I actually, I'll tell you for real. I love competitive paintball. Good fun. Do you have some favorite restaurants around here? What do you like to do for fun? Everyone loves Taco Bell.

Yo-Carro. Did you grow up here? Yeah, yeah, I grew up here in town. I know that you're waiting. Here's the thing. I'm waiting for him to clap. Here's the thing. I guess I'll do a half clap.

I'm going to do a golf clap. Here's, because I see what's going on here. That's interesting. We want to look out for national origin discrimination. If someone's giving you the whole, where are you from? No, really. Where are you from? That's a little concerning.

Also, we're role playing. I have the privilege of being a white presenting male who did grow up in this country. So a question, did you grow up in town? I have the privilege. I have the luxury of not feeling threatened by that question. But maybe someone who is darker skin tone, maybe has an accent, that could be a threatening question.

Like, are you not going to accept me because I wasn't part of this community? So golf clap, I'm going to say yellow flag on that one. We have to be reasonable for just like common conversation. What if I say, is your family from here? That's a little, I don't like that. That's a bigger clap. The clapping rule is funny because I'm clapping, but I'm displeased. This is a big clap.

Yeah. I don't like that. Look, the job is about you and your qualifications. Why are we talking about your family origin? I don't like that. Okay. Yeah. A real character.

No, this is important. We need to, especially for small business owners, by the way. You know, I don't know the ins and outs of all of these rules. Yeah, look, we're reasonable. I try to be reasonable. Not every person who asks, oh, did you grow up around here? Not all of them are horrible seething racists who are looking for reasons to deny you a job. But we have to look out for implicit bias.

If they're asking things like, oh, are you married? Do you have kids? Well, wait a minute. Let me get there. Oh, okay. Sorry. Coming up on. So are you married?

Yes, I am. And I'm real excited to talk about the job. What can you tell me about this workplace? So it's fine to ask if you're married. I don't love it. You have kids? Family's family. You know how it goes.

I'd love to talk about the job with you. And does your partner work around here? I would love to talk about the digital marketing role, Nicole. So here's the thing. Those are all hot button issues. Asked one-off with good intentions, they're normal. I mean, what do we do when we meet people? No, we try to connect.

Where are you from? Are you married? What is that like? But in a job, the job interview should, it's not a coffee date. It should be focused on your qualifications for the job and whether it's going to be a fit for you. Okay, Ryan. Go ahead. Back to the interview. This role involves marketing to millennials. Are you a millennial? I don't like that question. I am an expert in digital marketing, and I can appeal to the millennial audience. That's how I would answer that. So here's the deal.

Again, we got to be reasonable. I don't jump up and down and scream, you can't ask me that. You're trying to violate my rights. That's age discrimination. I don't like questions about your family origin. I don't like questions about family, family planning or perceived gender-based roles. I don't like questions about child care because that can be discriminatory as well. And I don't like the millennial question because age discrimination. And you're asked a question like that, it is fine to simply redirect. Like they said, are you, we are marketing to millennials, are you millennial? I would seriously say, I can handle the millennial audience.

I'm very good at what I do and I know how to speak to that core audience. That's fine. but if they're prying about your age, now my red flags are going up that this is an age discrimination problem. Right. The last person who had this role really struggled with the fast-paced nature of our work environment. How do you feel about the fast-paced nature of this industry? I thrive in a fast-paced environment, but your failure to plan is not my emergency. I think the last person had a hard time because she had a hard time because she had. had insomnia. Is that something you struggle with? Do we have a lot of late night meetings?

What did you do to this poor woman? I don't like that question because it kind of veers into a possible disability discrimination. I'll just say, look, I can do the job. That's it. If you do have a condition that requires accommodation, you know, it's fine to say, I can do the core duties of this job just fine. And do you have to disclose that? You don't have to. Look, if I can be a little Machiavellian, a little ruthless right now, employers do deal with a lot of implicit bias when it comes to these interviews. And a lot of people who deserve a fair shot, don't get them. And I'm not going to pretend that people with disabilities or people who maybe have child care issues do not get a fair shot. That happens every day. If you can do the job,

tell them you can do the job. And when you get in there, if you need some kind of accommodation, then ask for it. But my ruthless Machiavellian approach is if you can do the job, that's all you need to tell him. Okay. Ryan, we end all of our episodes by asking for one final tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. You've given us so many. We know we have to get it in writing. What else should people be aware of when signing employment contracts or leaving jobs? We talked about protecting your money and the paper trail and all of that, but we didn't talk a lot, Nicole, about protecting your soul, you, your self-esteem. A time. A time. A time. A time. A lot. We don't, Toxic workplace is going to do more harm to you. There's some studies that suggest it's as harmful as drinking heavily or smoking every day. A toxic workplace can make you feel that you are average, ordinary, or even less than, even when you're wonderful. A toxic workplace is going to change you before you change it. And I say all of this because just because a workplace is not seeing your value doesn't mean you are not valuable. If I may go on a very brief tangent, in my book I talk about the story of Joshua,

legendary violinist. debuted at Carnegie Hall when he was just a kid. He was on angels and demons. This guy's legit. Okay. And his violin costs more than my car. The big deal. He did a social experiment in the 2000s where they went to the metro station in D.C.

And the experiment was, hey, let's take this legendary performer and put him in this commonplace and see what happens. A lot of folks thought, hey, the Joshua Bell, it's going to move the place to tears. Trains are going to stop. Like, this is going to be incredible. We can't wait to see what this kind of music does. So he goes down there, he plays. And what really happened was more amazing. Do you know what happened?

Have you heard this story? No one gave a shit about this guy. No one noticed him. In 40 minutes, about a thousand people passed this legendary, one of the most talented musicians on the planet. Pass by him didn't even stop to listen. I think maybe 20 stopped to listen. Of the 20 who stopped to listen, I think less than five left a tip. He made about $50 in tips in an hour.

And only two or three people even recognize. recognized who he was. Does that mean he's not an amazing violinist? Does that not, does that mean that he is not one of the best at what he does? No, he was in the wrong place. Context really matters. So if you are listening to this and you're feeling less than, you're feeling your self-esteem as to can you think maybe you're not smart, maybe this is all that a job can be for you, maybe you're not that special. Check the soil around you. Are you Joshua Bell in the right now. Maybe there's somewhere else you need to be. So the big advice I want to give people that that's not really a written rule, do not let your boss or a toxic workplace dictate yourself

worth. It is not you. It is the environment. And you deserve good things and you are so much smarter and more special than you realize. And if a workplace can't recognize that, I hope you find the courage to leave it. I like to think of it like an orchid and a sauna. Yeah. The orchid in the Sana dies, but the orchid is amazing. Yeah, it's not the orchid. The right climate. Exactly. Exactly.

And I've been through it. Nicole, I got very raw in my book. And I talked about the worst boss I ever had. His name was Joe. Joe was there were a few things that were making me rethink my career as a firefighter and look at maybe a career in law instead. But Joe was kind of the final nail in that coffin. He was a horrible supervisor.

He hazed me ruthlessly. He was just a brutal, mean spirit. He was a very unhappy person. And he took it out on me because I was a low man. on the totem pole. And by the end of my time with Joe, despite loving my career as a firefighter for years, I started to think that I was dumb. I genuinely thought that. I thought maybe I'm not that smart. I'm not a good firefighter. Maybe I don't deserve the brotherhood. I really started to feel that because of nine months of this guy drilling it in my head how much he thought I sucked.

It was brutal. And I don't want anyone else letting that toxicity affect the way they view themselves. I'm not done. I left that environment. I went to law. law school, I passed the bar, I built a business, I'm here with you. I'm clearly not stupid. Joe was wrong. He was wrong about me. He was wrong to treat me that way. And I was wrong to let it affect me. And I hope that other people can learn from my mistake in that regard.