Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Why Silicon Valley is Obsessed with Microdosing

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

Elon Musk takes ketamine. Sergey Brin sometimes enjoys magic mushrooms.  Steve Jobs was said to have partaken in psychedelics. The obvious next question is: Why? Peggy Van de Plassche has the answer. Peggy is a former banker and venture capitalist, who spent two decades in financial services, burned out, and then found success again through, yes, microdosing on mushrooms. For more on Peggy and her work, click here: https://themicrodosediet.com/

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your

reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. As promised, here is our second edition in a two-part deep dive into some more unconventional money takes we don't cover every day here on Money Rehab. In this episode, I'm talking to

Peggy Van de Plosh about magic mushrooms. I'll explain. Peggy is a former banker and venture capitalist who spent two decades in financial services and then burned out and found success again, yes, through microdosing on mushrooms. Now, let me answer some questions you might be asking yourself. While Peggy's stance is that microdosing helps entrepreneurs and business, that's not what I am saying here necessarily. If you're a driver's ed teacher, for example, duh, you shouldn't be under the influence of anything when you're teaching kids.

And even if you do have a less motor skills focused job, every substance affects people differently. Like I can drink two cups of coffee an hour until 2 p.m. and still sleep-ish. And I have a friend who can't drink anything stronger than matcha. So my point is, talking to Peggy today is not to convince you that you need to add mushrooms to your morning routine. I just find this trend, like the biohacking trend I talked about in my most recent episode with Neil Parekh, to be super interesting. And it's a strong

trend, especially in Silicon Valley. Elon Musk takes ketamine. Sergey Brin sometimes enjoys psilocybin, aka magic mushrooms. Steve Jobs was said to have partaken in psychedelics. So I don't know about you, but I want to know why. That's what Peggy can answer. Oh, and Peggy does have a beautiful accent. For all my pals who need speech accommodation, I've linked the transcript to our conversation in the show notes. So ready for a trip? Here's Peggy. Peggy Van De Plosh, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you so much for having me, Nicole Lapin. It's a pleasure to be here with you. If only all of our guests said it that way. I have had so many guests on the show talking about what they think the secret to

professional success is, but no one has ever yet said microdosing. I guess today is the day. Today is the day, yes. And I think actually we're going to connect the dots with many conversations you might have, but that might be the piece of a puzzle that was missing actually. And why do you say microdosing is the key to success in our careers? For many reasons. So when you microdose psilocybin, you are going to see three types of benefits. The first is performance-related. The second is mental health-related.

And the third one is really consciousness-related. And all of that, you really need to be successful. But I would say more importantly, if you really use microlosing psilocybin in combination with a couple of tools like tapping meditation and journaling, you're going to really be able to work on this limiting belief. For example, money's out to come by or people like me don't make a lot of money, you're going to be able to work on your past emotional wounds. So for example, your parents had a bankruptcy money problem and you know, it's something you have internalized. Or you can also look at some emotions you have when you think and you talk about money that may be sadness, anger, shame, guilt. So all of that, the point

is to reprogram your brain and your body and your emotions. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Yes, we all have so much financial trauma. And when you say psilocybin, it's known as mushrooms. It's magic mushroom, exactly. Psilocybin is actually the active component. So it's a bit like saying LSD and acid, MDMA and moly is just what is the name that is the scientific name and what is the street name. But it's the same thing. Same thing. So if you're saying psilocybin, it's the same as saying magic mushrooms. So let's help our listeners who are thinking right now. Are you guys talking about taking drugs? How much are you talking about with microdosing? You're not suggesting that people go get super high wasted like rave style?

Absolutely not. Actually, that's the whole point of microdosing. So you take extremely small quantity, 100 milligram, which is tiny for magic mushroom, every two or three days. So think about it almost as a supplement, what you would take with whatever supplements you might be taking every day. So you will not feel anything. It just works in the background, but there is no physical effect. You will not feel high at all. in the background, but there is no physical effect. You will not feel high at all. On the contrary, you will feel focused. You will feel increased memory. You will feel better attention. So it's exactly the opposite of being high, actually. Is it comparable to having a glass of wine? If you've had a microdose or a little bit more than microdose, you can still drive yourself

home, that type of thing? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're not feeling anything. Actually, it's way less than having a glass of wine. If I have a glass of wine, it's not a great idea for me to drive after. But if I have a microdose, you know, I microdosed this morning, I don't feel it. I just take my day and that's that. I have a lot of friends in the business community who swear by microdosing, and they say, to your point, that it's really accelerated years and years of therapy. Is that what you've found? Or can you tell us a little bit more about the science behind that? What I really, really like with microdosing is that it brings everything together. So microdosing by itself, and I really want people

who are listening today to understand that it is not a magic pill. It's not, okay, you microdose and now suddenly, you know, everything is fine. And all your limiting belief, emotional wounds, everything disappears. No, no, no, no. But it accelerates your other practices. So as I was mentioning, journaling, tapping meditation. So I wrote a book called The My Photos Diet, which is a 90-day program, which is really, you're using my photos, but you're using

other tools as well. And because my photos lower your ego barriers, it's to your point, really increases the impact of what you're doing in addition to that. So it's one part of an overall mental health, physical health diet, you suggest. And you specifically talk about burnout here. My third book, as you might know, was focused all around burnout. This was an area that I didn't look into. Potentially there's a part two of it, but I do think that that's the next level of really focusing on taking care of your mental health to optimize success in your career, to optimize success across your life. Tell me a little bit more about how specifically microdosing can help with burnout. How has it helped you? You know, I used to be in finance.

I did 20 years in finance and my last role was a venture capitalist. And I would say the pandemic, like many people, had a negative impact on me. And actually, I probably always had a mental health issue. I just probably never realized that, to be honest. And when you have high pressure jobs, you're just like, wow, that's part of the territory. It's just what it is. And for me, starting microdosing really helped me with depression, anxiety, and stress. So I used to have tremendous amount of neurosis and control. You know, like I would wake up in the middle of the night, do emails. You know, like I was at the level of anxiety from 0 to 10 at 12, you know.

And, you know, right now I'm definitely in the normal range and I'm actually way more productive. So that's the thing we sometimes, unfortunately, we think anxiety helps us perform and it's the other way around. But for many people, there is this perspective that anxiety is keeping me protected because I'm always on the defense. But actually, you're missing a lot of opportunities because you cannot be open for that. You're just too stressed to your maximum capacity. Well, thank you for sharing that. I know that's very relatable, especially in the business and finance community. And you say this isn't your own experience alone.

A lot of other top performing CEOs, VCs are indulging in this performance enhancer. If you can, can you tell me specifically who? No, I don't think I can disclose any name. But actually, what's very interesting is that if you read the Wall Street Journal two days ago, there was an article published on women in high position who were microdosing psilocybin. So you can find names there of CEOs and of executives. But I can tell you that all the people I've been advising are all my former peers. So CEOs, execs, lawyers, a lot of tech funders. I mean, microdosing is not something that we invented last year. It's been like 20, 30 years in the Silicon Valley.

People have been doing that. But there's been a huge resurgence in the last few years. And for me, the best comfort is to know that moms actually microdose mushrooms. That makes me feel better that, okay, if a mom is comfortable doing that, well, I think that's good for me, you know? Yeah, and you're right. It's been around for several decades,

but I think in the last one, it's gained in popularity, especially in Silicon Valley, Silicon Alley, and those communities. But beyond that, who would you say microdosing is for? I mean, yes, if monks can do it, I suppose it's for anyone. But I don't imagine people like airline pilots should be microdosing. Or should they? should or we shouldn't. But, you know, half of Wall Street is on Adderall, you know, which is something that technically is legal and technically is healthy, or at least prescribed by health professionals. So we need to keep in mind that we've been, I would say, brainwashed, but, you

know, we have very strong stigma from the war on drugs for the last 50 years. So if Nixon had taken another direction, yes, airline pilots would probably micro-dose because it improves their focus and attention. So that would probably be a very good thing if they would micro-dose. It's just we're looking at it with a very different paradigm. So we're coming from a place that is more fearful

than if we had looked at it as the medicine that it is, which enhances each of us. So it is not something that we should be afraid of, actually. So to be clear, psilocybin is not legal. It's not legal in the United States. Is it legal anywhere? So in the United States, it's legal in Denver, it's legal in Oakland. So you have actually many countries, cities, states that are legalizing psilocybin. So it really depends where you are and when you are, because the cycle of decriminalizing and legalizing is really going at all speeds. So yes, in Oregon, you can microdose and take mushrooms without any challenge.

So in Colorado, in Oregon, I guess Oakland, you just go to the store and get psilocybin. Are we just talking a literal mushroom here? Capsules, chocolate? Yeah, exactly. So for example, I live in Toronto. So in Canada, everywhere, it is not legal yet, but you have shops everywhere.

So you just go and you buy whatever you want. So I have my own, my producing line. I have a product I sell. Actually, I ship as well to the US. I ship to Canada. And it's not Pablo Escobar, you know, you're not paying like 10 kilos of heroin. You're shipping a little bottle of 30 pills of 100 milligram that people take for their mental health. It's very different. That's the challenge is that microdosing is very different from

recreational and taking big, big dosage. And when you decided to start a business around this, what were some of the concerns you had, the legality concerns? Well, you know, it started because I wrote a book. So there was no concern because I'm writing a book. No one can sue me because I wrote a book on how to mindfully microdose. And then I started doing public speaking. And then I launched a product actually with a clinic in Vancouver. And I started being a bit nervous to your point, because it's tolerated in some places, it's legal in some places, but in some places, it is not legal, you know. But at this point, I'm looking also at it as civil disobedience, in the sense that

you cannot just wait for things to change in order to do something about it, you know. And for those to change, you always have to have people who want to push the boundaries. Whether it's for women to be able to vote, whether for segregationists, those are what people want to push. And it's not different with psilocybin. Many people are actually not just starting business,

but also being very vocal because they want to move a goalpost. They want to move the legal goalpost. They want to move toward legality. I'd love to, Peggy, dig into the science and the health benefits a little bit more. So let's start with you, like micro and then, no pun intended, and then go macro. How often do you personally microdose? Yeah, so I microdose every three days, 100 milligram.

You have different modalities. Some people is going to do every two days. Some people are going to take Monday to Friday. And that's as simple as that. There is nothing more complicated than this. You just take your microdose every three days, the same way you would take any type of supplements. I like to connect to my intention, you know, of why I'm taking it and why I'm doing that. But otherwise, there is no more

complexity. After the practice that I personally developed around that is a growth practice. The goal is, as we said, having more success, having more passion, more happiness in your life. But some people just microdose, you know. And how did you figure out that cadence for yourself? Do you think of it as needed, preventative? Are there some people microdosing every day to prevent stress or just doing it when they feel extra stressed? So I did a lot of research in order to really optimize the frequency. So some people do microdose more. At the end of the day, it's not necessary. And your body actually,

the more you take it, the less your body needs it. So I was microdosing more at the beginning and I'm microdosing less and less. So it's actually the other way around that most medication that is constantly, you know, increasing your dosage. So some people just going to take a microdose they're studying for an exam, for example, if they really want to have focus. They don't microdose all year round. They just microdose for one week

of their preparation of their exam. I don't do that because again, I do it in a very strategic and long-term protocol approach, but some people just do that. It's like, okay, let's say you have something, as you say, you're stressed about. Maybe you have a networking event you don't want to go or something. I don't know, the holidays with your parents. Well, maybe you're going to micro-do the entire week just to be maybe also a bit more relaxed. In that context, it's less about performance. It's more about mental health,

less stress, less anxiety. And what are some of the common side effects? So the side effects, I would say, really depends on are you doing it properly or not. So if you start taking 10 times the dosage, the side effects are going to be high. If you are pregnant, if you are breastfeeding, not a good idea, obviously, to take that. If you have very big mental health issues like schizophrenia, not a good idea to do that. So that's pretty much it. There is no recorded side effects. You cannot get addicted. You cannot overdose. You know, I was in Oakland last week and it's like zombie apocalypse between fentanyl and, you know, oxycontin and all that crap. And this is absolutely not the same type of medicine in

the sense that you will never get into that type of state. And can you help us understand why that is scientifically? Well, because there is not that addictive component that you find in other drugs. I mean, why was Oxycontin or even Fetanil, that's why you find Fetanil-9 in cocaine, because the whole point is for you to be addicted. Mushrooms is a natural component. It is something that is obviously, well, I don't forage in the forest, but it is a natural ingredient. It has not been tampered with in order to make it addictive. So it's the overall run. It's the chemical products that have been put in these overproducts to make them addictive, not the overall run. What's different from magic mushrooms and normal mushrooms?

Isn't there a chemical on it? No, just on this psilocybe, which is a specific component that's gonna make it magic. So it's just a different rate of mushroom. Some have it, some don't. I have a friend who's actually a doctor and she was growing them in her bathroom over the pandemic. And she was explaining to me the process. It sounded not that difficult, but I wasn't sure

what the magic part was. It's just the type of mushroom. So instead of growing a chanterelle or morel, she's growing magic mushroom. The thing is that there's nothing easier than growing mushroom. You just need some level of humidity. I mean, mushrooms, you find that everywhere. You know, as long as you have the right spot, it's not very complicated. That's why you see many people who actually grow their own supply at home. So they have quality and access constant. And that's one thing we should mention is that for people who are listening, who are

interested in microdosing, I would recommend two things. One, make sure that you have access to quality product. And second is really follow a regimen. Again, you cannot be addicted. You cannot overdose, but follow regimens so you get the most of it. Do it intelligently. And I assume that just in the last five years, 10 years, there's been a ton more research, science behind the health benefits here. What's the most compelling that you've seen?

In 2018, the FDA tagged psilocybin as breakthrough therapy for depression. You see a lot of studies that have been happening with the Department of Veterans in the US for PTSD and addictions. You see it a lot for mental health. All the research you see is mainly for mental health because it's in the context of a medicine. So it's not so much research for performance. It is really research for the mental health. Some people are looking into it for inflammation, so artresses and things like that. So there are plenty of applications actually that are being researched right now. I would say mental health is number one. And why do you think more recently too,

it's become more resonant within the business and tech communities? I've seen it just anecdotally. I think it's the mental health of people first has gone down dramatically, but it's also the fact that we're seeing the limit of antidepressants, anti-anxiety and therapy. So it's not as if people would have had tremendous results with what we've had today in terms of tools. So they did exactly like me. They looked at what

are the tools that exist today. Some might have used them, some might not. And wow, doesn't work great. What else can I do? And that's simply a need that created that innovation, as always with innovation. And do you think that within the tech communities, there's more experimentation with the limits of what this and MDMA can do for mental health? No, I think you see that in every group. You see that in finance a lot. You see that in media entertainment. Yes, technology may be slightly more in the sense that there is more this idea of innovation, biohacking, you know,

like that culture that is maybe slightly more pioneering. But you see that simply because people suffer in all the different industries. I mean, in finance, it's pretty bad. The level of addiction, alcoholism, people want to deal with their stress, their anxiety, their depression, the constant pressure to perform at work. And now they're like, well, if I can do it in a way that is safer for me

and more accessible, well, I hope people are going to transition more and more from what they're doing now to that, actually. It's way safer for everyone else. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make

some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward

your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Booths are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details. limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash,

but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel

always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. And now for some more money rehab. And if somebody doesn't know what biohacking is, can you define that? And would you consider microdosing part of biohacking? Oh, it's absolutely part of biohacking.

Whether it's what you've seen with fasting, intermittent fasting, whether the supplements, whether everything that is supposed to improve your own physical and mental performance fall into that biohacking bucket. So microdosing is absolutely one element that you would have in biohacking. I mean, my theory is that it's become more prevalent in the tech and business communities because so many of the leaders in those spaces have spent their health in their younger years getting wealth. And now that they got wealth, they would do anything to get back their health. Yeah, I don't know, because you see all age groups microdosing. I have a lady, she's in her 80s,

and you have obviously people, you know, like Gen Z who are microdosing. I have a lady, she's in her 80s, and you have obviously people, you know, like Gen Z who are microdosing. So it's the entire spectrum. Obviously, because Gen X and the people I'm working with are of the same age group and the same type of position, that's what I see, people between 35 and 55. But you see it above and below, you know, because people are desperate. Trust me, if they don't get up one morning thinking, great, I'm going to take magic mushrooms, you know, because we're all still very afraid, as I said, with a stigma, you're doing bad because you want it because you need it. It's not just experimenting, you know, on a Saturday night with your friends in the

basement. It's healing. It's really for healing. And Saturday night with your friends in the basement. It's healing. It's really for healing. And we can't ignore that stigma. I mean, I have to say, if one of my employees made a mistake at work, it would kind of hit different, Peggy, if I knew that they were making that mistake after taking any drugs, even microdosing, I would say. What would you say to someone who has this bias against microdosing? A bias is like any bias. It's looking for why, the why. What's very interesting for me is that the bias we don't have towards alcohol, the bias we don't have towards prescribed drugs,

the bias we don't have so much against tobacco, because these are legal. And I think for me, it's just funny. So tomorrow it's legal. So, okay, so that's fine then. And tomorrow alcohol is not legal. Okay, so now it's bad. It's just a frame of mind. And I think that's really the way to look at it, which is, okay, so basically I'm not making my own decisions.

It's people who write the, who decided what is legal, what is not legal. In the healthcare industry, as you understand, there is a lot of lobbying. So there is not a lot of interest in having solutions like that that are natural and cheap. You cannot patent a mushroom. So that's a lot of money that could be lost by the healthcare industry if now you're not taking Prozac or Xanax and you're microdosing psilocybin. So we are saved, I would say, because veterans and first responders are suffering so much. Politicians have no choice than to step in. And that's why you've seen so much progress

in the research and in the change of legal framework. If it wasn't for that, you would not because the healthcare industry is pouring so much money in lobbying, but you will never have seen that if the situation was not that bad. Where do you see the legality going in the next five years, 10 years? Unfortunately, I think it's going to be very piecemeal. For example, in the U.S., where you have some places in the U.S. is totally criminal to have even 100 milligrams and some places where you can buy five grams and work with it. So it is the challenge of not having a federal framework, like the same frame you have with cannabis, where some places it's okay. So Canada is a bit different because, for example, cannabis, it's federally regulated

and it's legal. Hopefully, it's going to happen with mushroom very soon. But it is going to depend on the country and the geography. But thank God, because of mental health benefits, I think legislators will have no choice than to look at what is best for their citizens, starting with our veterans and their first responders. Because really, it's for people with mental health issues that are existing treatment resistant. Well, yeah, you can say resistant in the sense

that it doesn't work. And where would you put this? Because, you know, I have a group of friends who are really, really into biohacking and they're microdosing psilocybin. They're doing therapeutic MDMA. They're trying ketamine infusions and ayahuasca. And then there's a whole ayahuasca retreat that I was invited to in Costa Rica called Rhythmia that was started by a CEO who made hundreds of millions of dollars, but was unhappy. So where would you put this in the group of those types of alternative medicines? the group of those types of alternative medicines? It's one piece. So I've done journeys myself, and it does nothing to do with that. Yeah, you're using the same product, but it's very different. It's the same as doing a wine testing with your friend and then going Florida, Mexico for spring break and doing like in your mouth.

That's the same thing. Obviously, the results are very different, but you cannot compare the process of the results. And I think journeys are great, but journeys needs to be with professionals. You know, you need to be guided with people who know what they are doing in very, very secure context. Here, it's a do-it-yourself at home. So the power is to you, you know, and it's way cheaper as well. I mean,

that's not everyone can afford that, you know. And that's part of why I wanted to write more of the books because all this stuff is really, really expensive. And so I wanted to be the guinea pig to test it out and sort of give the cheat code around it. But when you say journey, you mean an ayahuasca journey or like a ketamine infusion journey? Exactly. So large dose. So, for example, I went to the West Coast and for five days I was with Shaman and I did a couple of journey, which means, you know, you take a large dose and for like six,

eight, 10 hours, you're kind of journeying and coming on the other side, you know, so very, very different experiences. And while there's a lot of work that's being done around PTSD and veterans and first responders, as you mentioned, it's still really expensive, which is another reason that probably the CEO founder type community is gravitating toward it. the CEO founder type community is gravitating toward it. Where do you think the linkages between money and these new practices that are popping up? Is it perhaps that money will not buy happiness? And so they're dealing with this even after a tremendous amount of success? Well, I think you have a tremendous amount of linkage with psychedelic and money. But if we look just at this idea of people who are wealthy and trying

to discover themselves or starting this type of retreat, I think that's okay. You check the box of, I'm supposed to make a lot of money because I'm in the Western society. And that's what I was told was happiness and success. And when you get there, you realize that, well, maybe that was not just that. And you want to find more happiness, more fulfillment, really, in your life, and hopefully leave the world a better place. There's a lot of people you're mentioning. They build companies, not always companies that bring value to the world, let's be honest, and not always by playing nice either. So if you really look, they might have made a lot of money, but their impact on the world is pretty negative. So now they're like, okay, well, maybe I can rebalance the spreadsheet by making myself a better person and helping others being a better person.

I would think so. I'm not in that position. Yeah. I mean, I've long said that money without meaning is just paper. And I think what I've seen anecdotally is just people getting to a point of having tons of money, but lacking some of that meaning behind it. Well, and you know, we're going back a bit to the beginning of the conversation and it's really about this belief, this wants related about money. Why did you want that money? Is it because you felt you were less than? Is it because you wanted the security? Is it because you couldn't do the school trip because your parents could not afford? And all these reasons, they're working in the back of your mind, and maybe they give you drive to be successful, but not necessarily fulfilled. And that's the thing that I believe is so important is that I love money. Don't get me wrong.

I want more of it. I'm absolutely not saying that money is bad. That's not my point. I'm just saying that you want to understand why you want it and you want to get it and have it and manage it in a fulfilling and expensive way instead of coming from scarcity, greed, competition, you know, like that very patriarchal model. That's the way I look at it. Yes.

And you said expansive, not expensive. Expansive. Yes. And you said expansive, not expensive. Expansive. And going back to the beginning as well, you talk about this being part of many things that you should do to improve and sustain good mental health practices. You mentioned tapping as one of them. What is that? Oh, tapping. So it's about using the meridians on your body. So the meridians is really linked with Chinese medicine. So when you tap, you tap on certain points and you connect, for example, to an event

that has been happening, I don't know, this morning or 10 years ago or whatever, that created negative emotion, anxiety or anger. Or, you know, again, you couldn't make the school trip and you still feel bad about it. And the beauty of tapping is that it's going to break the connection between your mind and body, between that emotion that is stuck probably in your body and in your mind and the memory. So basically, you're going to be able after to go through life without constantly having that weight of that problem that you might have.

For some things that are extremely complicated, you're going to have to tap more than once, you know, and probably take it from many different angles. But the goal is really to remove this emotional challenge related to some of our statements. That crap is always still there from like the school trip. I'm sure, you know, the body keeps score. It always comes back if you don't deal with it. But I assume that that's part of a technique to retrain neural pathways. I've done a bunch of EMDR that I've talked about on the show.

Similar philosophy, I guess. Exactly. It's all about rewiring your brain, but also calming your body. Because the challenge is that, of course, we know about the mind-body connection. If you just work on the mind, you know, the body keeps the score. But if you just work on your body, well, your mind keeps the score as well. So you need to work both concurrently. And you also need to understand that one eighth of the mind is conscious. The rest is unconscious. So I love all the mindset work.

That's great. But it's basically working on 5% of the entire problem because your conscious mind and then your body and then your emotion override your conscious mind and then your body and then your emotion override your conscious mind every time. So I love writing positive affirmation and doing vision boards, but it's not going to bring you very far if you're not cleaning the crap first. I feel like this idea of microdosing or using other forms of alternative medicine, and I'm referring to ketamine or MDMA as therapeutic in a therapeutic way, comes after you've done a lot of that cleaning of your side of the street type thing with talk therapy and these other modalities of journaling and tapping and other things that you've already started this process before skipping to using either psilocybin or something else? I think it's really a combination. If you're doing talk therapy, for example,

or if you're doing journaling or tapping, as I mentioned, concurrently, microdosing is going to help you go deeper and faster. So I really like the combination of both. After, to your point, for someone who's looking into journey, so, you know, like maybe this ketamine clinic, that big injection or ayahuasca retreat or all these things, then I agree with you. It's better if you've done already some work or if you're going there blind and you have no idea

why are you even going there? You know, my producing is very different. It's a day-to-day, I won't say lifestyle, but it's people who are constantly working on themselves. And I mean, if you're doing coaching, if you're doing therapy, anything you're doing to not just better yourself, but heal yourself, my producingosing is going to help you find that. Oh, sister, it is a lifelong journey. It is.

But it's important, as you say, to find guides. It sounds like maybe microdosing is more DIY, but I had a terrible experience where I did like a ketamine therapy without a guide and it made things even worse. And so you got to be really, really careful with this type of stuff and be really, really careful of where you go. I'm stating the obvious, of course. Well, and you know, that's the challenge of this big dose, you know, and I have people telling me, oh, I'm doing like a psilocybin trip in my basement and my wife is going to watch over me. And I'm like, I don't know. It doesn't seem like a great

idea to me, you know, but say, yeah, your wife's going to watch to make sure you're not wandering the street or whatever. But what's happening inside, no one is really here to help you, which is what happened to you with that ketamine journey. Yeah. To process it. And if you want the therapeutic benefits, you need to focus on that. It's a totally different story than just having a good time. Preparation and integration. And people just keep to the experience.

And that's actually not the right approach. Again, microdosing is very different anymore. Same substance. That's why people sometimes make the parallel, but nothing to do in terms of experience, in terms of danger as well. Let's be honest. That's not something you will see with my photos. Yeah. And I also like, you know, because I'm still a numbers person, as much as I do play in a woo-woo world. It's dosed. You're not just taking a random amount that you don't know how much you're taking. Exactly. So the product I developed

with that clinic in Vancouver, so you have 100 milligrams of psilocybin, but you have some lion's mane to help you with cognitive abilities. You have some green tea extract to help you with your energy. And everything is packaged in the little cap, so you don't have to start thinking about it.

So it's very handy versus growing it in your bathroom and now okay you have to grow it you have to take it you have to dry it you have to cut it you have to wait and that gets a bit more complicated to do it properly yeah totally i once had a friend who walked around with like a whole basket of psilocybin, actual mushrooms, caps and stems and stuff. And she's just like, what is this? You can't just randomly take a... Anyway, that's why I appreciate the microdosing and all of the science behind it. Peggy, you are a wealth of information around this. Thank you so much. We end our episodes by asking all of our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. It can be anything.

I know your background is in banking and the VC world. I'd love to hear one tip that listeners can use, money tip in investing, saving, budgeting, anything. Slow and steady win the race. So don't go for the silver bullet. Don't go for the exciting stuff, the meme stock, the Bitcoin, whatever. Not a good idea. So maybe your neighbor is going to be happy and he's going to be lucky with his timing. But this is not repeatable and this is not scalable.

So keep with the trusted strategies if you want to have a good rate of return. Yeah, we like it boring. We like boring. You want a sexy, fun time? Go have a good rate of return. Yeah, we like it boring. We like boring. You want a sexy, fun time, go have a journey. You want a lot of money, keep it in index funds and chill. Exactly. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin.

Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at moneynews and TikTok at moneynewsnetwork for exclusive video content.

And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.