Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Would You Pay $4,000 to Get Over Your Ex?

Episode Date: December 16, 2023

Originally aired 1/20/23 Nicole stumbled across an article about a $4,000 breakup bootcamp and immediately needed to know more. First of all, $4,000 is a lot of money. But, it got her thinking: breakups can affect your mental health, which in turn, can affect your financial health. So what's the price of a healthy life? If it isn’t $4,000, how much is it? Nicole invites the bootcamp founder Amy Chan to talk about her program and all things at the intersection of love and money. Check out Amy's work here: https://amy-chan.com/

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your

reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Hey, money rehabbers. Before we get started, I just wanted to let you know that today's episode includes a description of suicidal thoughts. So please take care while listening.

I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. So I was reading the LA Times not too long ago, and I stumbled across an article titled, After Being Dumped, Can a $4,000 Breakup Bootcamp Help You Heal? I was hooked. My first thought was, damn, $4,000 is a whole lot of money. And that was my second thought and my third thought too. But I was also so curious.

Breakups and heartache and relationship woes can affect your mental health, which in turn can affect your financial health. So what's the price of good overall health in all aspects? If it isn't $4,000, how much is it? So naturally, I wanted to find out more about this bootcamp. So I invited the founder, Amy Chan, on to tell me more about it. Welcome to Money Rehab. Thanks for having me.

You are the founder and chief heart hacker, love that title, at Renew Breakup Bootcamp. I cannot wait to dive into that more because we've all experienced that. Your background is so interesting to me. You started in marketing and your last job was at one of my favorite places in New York, actually, the ping pong club, Spin. So how did you pivot from ping pong to heartbreak? Yeah. So I was a chief marketing officer at Spin and I had always had this idea to create this retreat, a safe space for people to go after going through a breakup or divorce. And the idea came after a pretty traumatic breakup of my own. I was on the

path of happily forever after, which to me back then meant date, get married and be a stay at home wife. And I was set. And then that relationship fell apart due to infidelity. And without that, I just fell into pieces. I didn't have an identity outside of the relationship and our future plans. And I tried everything I could to heal. I went to yoga retreats, but I was just procrastinating my pain. So when I healed that, I was like, what happens to those people who don't have friends and a support system? What happens to them? And so the idea came about and I continued working in corporate until I felt ready to launch on my own. I'm so sorry you went through that and thank you for opening up about it. What part of that healing process inspired the boot camp. When I didn't know when the pain was going to end,

it was a very scary place. Not only for myself of what I was, these destructive thoughts of what I was going to do to end that pain, but I had crazy revenge fantasies. Like some involved buying bed bugs. Buying bed bugs and putting them in his bed? maybe sending something to the woman and to the guy and maybe it would infiltrate their apartments I had my mind was just going on like how could I like how could I release this pain and so I think not knowing how the pain was going to end if the pain was going to ever end it was just such a scary. And so when I hit rock bottom and it was a key moment where I was really, I had a panic attack. I was trying to calm down in the bathtub and I had this conversation in my head of how could I pull off a suicide without traumatizing the person

who would find my body? I'm like, oh, I can't, you know, I don't want to do it because my friend lent me their place. I don't want them to find me. I don't want their cleaner to find me. They don't even know me. And I honestly, like, thank God I'm so polite because I couldn't figure it out. I fell asleep that night. I didn't go through with it. And the next morning I went, holy crap, I am going to go either spiral out of control and continue that way, or I need to fight. I need to fight my way out of this. And I don't know how, but I'm going to just take it one step at a time. And I made that key decision and I did, and it was hard. And there was times when I felt like, oh my gosh, I've done it. I'm over it. And then something would trigger me and I'd be back into fetal position. But after going through all that, I would say, it probably took

me about over two years. I just was like, I have to help those people. My pain isn't going to be for nothing. And I really found my purpose in that. And I wrote about it and then eventually started my own breakup bootcamp. Oh, sister, I just got the chills. So what was that first step? How did you get from those suicidal thoughts in the bathtub to getting out of the fetal position? What was the first thing you did? The very first thing was I signed up for a food delivery program, which delivered green juices to my place because I wasn't eating. And so when you're not taking care of your body, there's absolutely no way your mind and your heart can function. And that was really started to change

me. So that was number one. Number two, I went and I found work because at the same time, right before the breakup, I was laid off from my job and I spent a big chunk of my savings taking my now ex on a trip across Europe for his birthday. And then all this came after that. So I didn't have a job. And so I got some contract work in marketing and that really helped because having something to focus on other than the breakup and my story allowed me to just take some time off of this narrative that was replaying over and over in my head. I'm glad that you touched on the financial part, of course, because we love to follow the money trail. And a lot of women that I hear from don't want to leave relationships because they're scared of supporting themselves.

They deal with a lot, financial abuse and otherwise, because they don't think they can get their finances together, but obviously they can. How much did that play into your story and how often do you hear that from others? In my case, I was not dependent on my partner at the time, but I got out of my apartment because I couldn't afford my apartment anymore, moved in with with him so I think that it made all of it just so much more crushing I didn't have a home I was too ashamed to go back to my mom's house so my friends just took turns housing me month over month until I could get back onto my own feet and it was horrible this embarrassing feeling so ashamed that I didn't have money was just an extra layer.

And I see it a lot. I see people who are in relationships that some are pretty bad, like they're abusive and some are not terrible, but they're not good. And they are like, well, you know, what can I do? Like, I have to stick with this because there's so much sunk cost in this. It's already been so many years. Well, how can I start now? And also that shame of if you were living together and maybe lived in a nice place that you can't afford on your own and then you're couch surfing. There's just a lot of reluctance, I'm sure, in changing your life and then putting up with a lot because of that. Yeah, for sure. So tell us about the boot camp experience. I'm assuming you took everything you

learned from all of your own healing at different retreats. But can you give us the details? How long is the retreat? I have 1000 questions. What are the activities? So I'll start with what the boot camp is about. So it's four days. It's always out in nature. And I bring in a team of 12 experts from psychologists, behavioral scientists, sex therapists, even a dominatrix who teaches on the psychology of power dynamics. And people come, there's about 25 people and they're in programming from nine in the morning until nine at night. It's very intense. And they actually don't know what they're going to have.

So the agenda, just a session. And part of why we do this is because if I tell them, oh, you're going to have an out-of-body experience while moving trauma through the body, they're going to be like, no, thanks. Hard pass. Yeah. It's not like a fun day to sign up for trauma therapy. I've done it before. It's like, today's not a great day for a colonoscopy either. It never feels like a great day. Yeah. It's not like a fun day to sign up for trauma therapy. I've done it before. It's like, today's not a great day for a colonoscopy either. It never feels like a great day.

Yeah. Yeah. But they are pleasantly surprised around other people who are also going through the same thing. And one of the house rules I set at the very beginning is there's no bashing of the ex and no unsolicited advice because we don't want to go into a hate fest rabbit hole when we are just blaming our ex, psychoanalyzing our ex, hoping for our ex to give us closure. We are still in a relationship with our ex and that emotional charge keeps us hooked. So that's why no complaining. And then we have the experts there. So I'm sure so many people have experience going through a breakup and then everyone becomes, you know, the major advice giver and as if they know, but a lot of the times they're projecting. And so leave it to the experts. And we have a

program that takes them through different stages of the healing process, but not only to heal and move through those emotions, but to understand what are some of those subconscious patterns that have been kicking around before the X? How can we start rewiring those so we don't repeat the same emotional experience over and over again? So of course, we follow all money trails on Money Rehab. I'd love to dive into the actual process of creating that retreat, turning it into a business, when you were mapping out this bootcamp, what elements or what offerings were most important to you? I looked at everything that was critical to my healing process. And then I sought out an expert

that specifically focused on that. So from cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to breath work, to getting back in touch with my body after being so disassociated with it for way beyond my ex. So bringing in a Tantra expert. And then I launched really, I thought this is just going to be a passion project. I'm going to do it on the side. I talked to my CEO at Spin about it. And he actually gave me his blessing. He was super supportive in the entire process. And I was always like, this is going to be a small thing. And that first one, I actually invited some reporters to come.

And I got a lot of press from it. And so from the press that came, I had an email from an agent at UTA. And back then I had no idea what this was. So I was like, what do you want? Do you want money from me? And they're like, Amy, just come in. Let's have a meeting. And that eventually became a book deal and all these things. But I constantly, because I grew up just being used to being in corporate, I was like, this is going to be a small thing. And it took time for me to have enough in my savings account to feel that I had enough traction that I could leave corporate for good and follow this dream of creating my own business. How did you figure out how to price the

retreats? So in the beginning, I just wanted to break even on the first retreat. And so I priced it really low. I had friends and friends of friends come and I'm like, I'll just give it to you at cost. I just kind of need this to happen. And then what would happen is every single retreat, I kind of played with the pricing as I added more things, added more teachers, added more days, more things, added more teachers, added more days, changed the location. I updated the price. And now, I mean, look, the retreat isn't my main moneymaker. It used to be the only way I made revenue. But during the pandemic, I turned a lot of my program into online. And the retreat now is really, it's aspirational. It is something that reminds me of why I do what I do. Because as you know, as an entrepreneur, sometimes being in the day to day can be exhausting. And so when I'm at the

retreat, and I physically see these people transform in front of my eyes, it just reminds me like, Amy, this is what you're meant to do. Keep your eye on that vision and don't veer from it. Keep your eye on that vision and don't veer from it. So the LA Times did a story on you that it's $4,000 a pop, that aspirational sort of price tag. I think from a business perspective, you can either do a lower price point, but do bigger volume or a higher price point. And it sounds like that's what you wanted to do. You wanted to keep it small.

You wanted to keep it part of your business. I assume that was part of your process. And then I have like an online version of Breakup Bootcamp. It's like 60 videos and lessons. So for those who can't afford it or you want to do it at the comfort of your own home, that's like a much more economical price. And how much is that to do? That's $3.95.

In the FAQ section on your website, I read that folks can contact your team, though, if they're struggling financially and they want to attend your boot camp. Is that right? How do you balance the cost with accessibility? Yeah. So every retreat, we have a couple of subsidies that we will do. And I don't have this mathematical equation. I really look at it by case basis.

And so we'll help out people to make it feasible for them. Cool. And in a word, what would you say attendees are paying for signing up? What do they get? Empowerment. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see

that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress.

Banking services and debit card provided by the Bank Corp. Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash. But I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when

I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. And now for some more money rehab. As you know, I preach financial independence. Pay yourself first, don't marry rich, be rich, all of those fun things.

What role do you think independence, financial or otherwise, plays in a relationship? So this is a huge topic because I'm going to tell you my main client is the person who was financially dependent. And maybe they started off, they had a job, they had a career. And then somewhere along the way, they're like, you know what? Let's not. And that was really the path that when I say I thought I was going for happily ever after, that's the life that I thought I wanted and needed. Somebody to take care of you.

Yeah. And what happens is it begins fine, right? But where people come to break up bootcamp is usually 10, 15, 20 years later. Maybe they've had children. Maybe they've been a stay-at-home mom. And then the person comes back. There's an affair.

There's been cheating. There's being blindsided. And then this person, it's typically the woman is like, Oh my gosh, what do I do? I now not only don't have my identity of being the housewife, the caretaker, I actually don't know how I'm going to land on my feet. And why I love what you do. And I've sent people to your website and books is because we were blissfully in love and the love drugs are at its peak of dopamine. You don't think about what might happen later on when the passion sizzles, when you're going through these times where you think each

other are so annoying, you don't think about that. And so what happens is when you just go like, you know what? I'm not going to make money. I'm not going to be equal in finances. I at least have something of my own. The power dynamic changes. It always changes. It doesn't matter how much they love you. And eventually this person was so into you and courting you, this person who was so into you and courting you, years pass, the lust isn't there, and then suddenly they have power over you. What role does financial issues play in breakups? Would you say if somebody is thinking about splitting up from the person they're with, but really concerned about finance, what kind of advice would you give them? I would say create your safety net, however that's going to look like, right? I mean, it's not any different than what I did when I decided to start my company. My safety net was, okay,

I'm going to start saving. How much do I need to save? All right. What's realistic? Three months of savings. Okay. I called my mom. Hey mom, if everything goes to crap and I fail, can I go home and live with you while I do this thing? She said, yes. Okay. That's my building the safety net. So I could psychologically prepare myself for this huge change that is going to come. Yeah. I have benefited a lot from the stoicism idea because oftentimes we suffer more in imagination than in reality. So fast forwarding the videotape or MP3 or whatever, have benefited a lot from this stoicism idea because oftentimes we suffer more in imagination than in reality. So like fast forwarding the videotape or MP3 or whatever, like if I do break up or lose my job or like some scary thing, will I be okay? Well, yes, I'll go stay with my

mom or my friends or whatever. And that will be my plan or solution or coming up with some numbers. So it doesn't feel overwhelming and scary. That makes a lot of sense. I've also heard you say, which I really like, that we view happily ever after as the only desirable outcome to a relationship and that we should expand our definition to include more. I'd love to double click on that idea. How do you think we should view possible outcomes in relationships? I think that there's this idea of a successful relationship means one that's forever. And that's just not the case. Our relationships serve many different purposes. Some are going to be teaching you a key lesson. Some is to break your heart so it breaks you open for someone else down the road. And so I want us

to reframe what Happily Forever After after is ask yourself, is this version, this plan, this idea, my own dream, or is it someone else's and start getting really clear on what do I want? And second, I feel like a lot of people are hard on themselves because the relationship didn't work or they went through a divorce and they're like, what a waste, but it's never a waste. If you learn something from it, it was not a waste. If you haven't learned something from it, go dig and look at whatever it is that you need to learn because there's something there for you. There is data that you can apply to make your future even better. And sometimes relationships don't work so that you can figure out what you don't want so that you can figure out what you

do want in the future. Yeah. And sometimes figuring out what you don't want so that you can figure out what you do want in the future. Yeah. And sometimes figuring out what you don't want is more important, at least I've found. I love this idea of reframing the way we view romantic relationships and outcomes. I think that there probably could be something to reframing relationships and the way we view money too. Could we use that strategy to reframe our relationship with money? Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think I'm going through this process as well, where I grew up, you know, watching my dad pay for everything, even though my mom helped out a lot. And I equated money with love. And my dad is an immigrant from China. He didn't know how to express love. So he just would give me a hundred. I mean, he still does this to this day. And so I brought that money narrative with me into my relationships. And to be honest,

when I look back, I was very entitled about money. And if someone didn't pay, they didn't do this, then I was like, oh my gosh, like, I don't like you. And I remember even with my ex, my expectation was that they paid for most of everything. And now I'm in a very equal partnership. And it's not that my partner wouldn't pay for the entire living expenses, but I don't want that. I don't want to ever feel like I'm living in his home. And that's just the setup for me. So I think that you need to sit down and look at what is the money narrative that you've kind of taken through osmosis, through culture, your parents, et cetera. And then again, ask yourself, is this what you want? Is that going to serve your present and your future? So is there some advice that you

would give people in your bootcamp around how they view money in a relationship or you truly believe it's all individual? My general rule of thumb is that money is a major factor in the power dynamics. And so if you go in thinking, oh my gosh, like amazing, they're just going to pay for everything all the time. It will last. There's an expiry date to that power dynamic where it's equal until eventually shifts. And this is purely through seven years of watching what happens at the end. I work with people when they have that mentality and it blows up. And I think for those people who are in, you know, maybe a marriage and that is a setup, that's also okay.

But you can have updated conversations so that you do feel empowered about finances. And just because you started it that way doesn't mean you have to be like that forever. Do you feel like if one person pays for the majority, then they expect something else from the other person? Like there's some expectation because I pay the rent or because I pay the mortgage that you're supposed to deal with more shit? Intellectually, they'll probably say no. But emotionally, it's a yes. And it's not that they're bad people. I see a lot of my own friends who are the ones paying for everything

and they love their partner and they have the best of intentions. But does it show up and creep up in those resentments? And like, well, I did all of this. You should be able to do that. Yeah, it does. I see it a lot at the end of relationships. It's like, oh, it's cool. It's cool. It's cool. Until it's not. Typically, I close my interviews asking guests for one piece of advice

they could take straight to the bank. But for you, I wanted to know a piece of advice for healing after a breakup that listeners can take straight to the recovery road. You've got to find something that is empowering that you can get obsessed over. Because if you don't, you will just use that passion and direct it towards your ex in either painful stories, blame, shame, whatever it is. So when I say something empowering, that could be learning a new hobby, building a side hustle, whatever it is. And you'll get a positive feedback loop

as you become better at this. And that will automatically help you not ruminate and obsess about the past. Yeah, or like start a company or a network. Asking for a friend. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention

with me. And follow us on Instagram at moneynews and TikTok at moneynewsnetwork for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.