Moonshots with Peter Diamandis - Apple’s AI Crisis & ChatGPT’s World Domination w/ Dave Blundin & Salim Ismail | EP #162

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

In this episode, Salim, Dave, and Peter discuss news coming from Apple, Grok, OpenAI, and more. Recorded on April 3rd, 2025 Views are my own thoughts; not Financial, Medical, or Legal Advice. ​Dave Blundin is a distinguished serial entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and AI innovator with a career spanning over three decades. As the Founder and General Partner at Exponential Ventures (XPV) and Managing Partner at Link Ventures, he has co-founded 23 companies, with at least five achieving valuations exceeding $100 million, and has served on 21 private and public boards. Notably, he pioneered the quantization of neural networks in 1992, significantly enhancing their efficiency and scalability. An alumnus of MIT with a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science, Dave conducted research on neural network technology at the MIT AI Lab. He currently imparts his expertise as an instructor at MIT, teaching the course "AI for Impact: Venture Studio." Beyond his professional endeavors, Dave is a member of the Board of Directors at XPRIZE, a non-profit organization dedicated to encouraging technological development to benefit humanity. ​ Salim Ismail is a serial entrepreneur and technology strategist well known for his expertise in Exponential organizations. He is the Founding Executive Director of Singularity University and the founder and chairman of ExO Works and OpenExO.  Learn about Dave’s fund: https://www.linkventures.com/xpv-fund  Join Salim's ExO Community: https://openexo.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/salimismail  Learn more about Abundance360: https://bit.ly/ABUNDANCE360  Learn more about Exponential Mastery: https://bit.ly/exponentialmastery  ____________ I only endorse products and services I personally use. To see what they are,  please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:  Get started with Fountain Life and become the CEO of your health: https://fountainlife.com/peter/ AI-powered precision diagnosis you NEED for a healthy gut: https://www.viome.com/peter  Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PETER at  https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod _____________ I send weekly emails with the latest insights and trends on today’s and tomorrow’s exponential technologies. Stay ahead of the curve, and sign up now:  Tech Blog _____________ Connect With Peter: Twitter Instagram Youtube Moonshots

Apple's top executive calls AI crisis ugly and embarrassing. I've tweeted this a dozen times. Siri sucks so bad. Salim, stand up for Apple because I'm not going to. Dave Blunden, you run an extraordinary incubator and you see hundreds of AI entrepreneurs and you back how many companies per year? Normally it'd be 10. Now it's about 30. OpenAI is raising money at this insanely high valuation. The AI revolution

totally justifies the price. Technology delivers a domain, any domain, from scarcity to abundance. There are two ways to make a fortune as a foundation model company, but one of them, which I think Sam and Elon both realize, is displacing Google and being a direct consumer brand. Now that's the moonshot, ladies and gentlemen. Everybody, welcome to Moonshots and a special episode of WTF Just Happened in Tech. I'm here, of course, with my dear friend Salim Ismail, the head of exponential organizations, and an extraordinary friend on the forefront of all things exponential.

I'm also here with a new friend, actually an old friend, new to this podcast, and that's Dave Blunden. Dave and I go back to our college days at MIT. We were roommates at Theta Delta Chi. It was a heck of a set of rooms there. It was myself, Dave, and Michael Saylor. And while I went off to medical school, Dave graduates and starts a company called DataSage, which is like the first neural net company, exits for a billion dollars, goes on to build 20 plus companies,

and in particular, something called Link XPV, a venture fund that's been investing in AI companies coming out of MIT and Harvard with an incredible success story. I don't know, Dave, how many unicorns you've had, but I think I've lost count. Anyway, good to have you on the on the pod Dave Awesome to be here Peter. Thanks for having me. Yeah

Salim you just landed where'd you come from? I was three days in Helsinki three days in London and Managed to get back without too many too much damage. Do you know where you are right now, by the way? I'm back in New York City, so I'm safe at home. All right, you started to say three days in Helsinki. I was going to say three days in Helsinki. Right, got it. Well, it sounds like your travel back were pretty insane.

Anyway, we've got New York, Boston, and LA. And there's a lot that's been going on in the AI world. And I wanted to really dive into it because I Feel like the pace of insanity is accelerating and it's kind of hard to keep track but our job is sort of make this digestible and fun and I'm gonna start with something that continues to blow me away and that is you know, the fact that Open AI is raising money at this insanely high valuation, even when there's this debate about whether it's going to remain a nonprofit or a for-profit

when there are lawsuits flying left and right. But man oh man, I love their product and so do my kids and my wife. Dave, what do you make of this? Well, I don't know, Peter, you in or out at 300 billion. You tell me. I think the challenge on this one is that the AI revolution totally justifies the price, but nobody knows if foundation models are going to be winners. DeepSeek disrupted the market. You saw what happened to Nvidia's stock that day. And so it's a free-for-all right now. It's very much like the internet was back in the early days where things haven't settled down yet. It's not obvious whether

you can bet on any given part of the AI economy, but you know that the whole thing is going to have $20 trillion of impact in just a couple of years. So this is either really cheap or really expensive, depending on whether it's the winner or not, or a winner or not. Well, that's what makes you a successful venture capitalist is figuring that part out. Salim, same question to you. Are you in or out at $300 billion? Personally, I'd be out, but there's two things here.

One is there's a massive competition and there seems to be talent drain at OpenAI, et cetera, et cetera. And on the other side, maybe Masa and Softbank are seeing things that we don't see and it's risky to bet against Masa historically. He makes counterintuitive bets for has been done for real and is more right than wrong. Yeah, what about we work? Me personally I'm out of 300 billion. Okay, yeah what about we work exactly and you have to imagine that Microsoft has inside news but I mean Microsoft's the biggest beneficiary of OpenAI because

they get access to everything across the board. I am curious about, you know, I think the estimate we had at the Abundance Summit, Dave, was a billion dollars a day being invested in AI at this moment in time. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing how everybody's leapfrogging each other too. You know, DeepSeek disrupted everything, but now Gemini is on top of the benchmarks all of a sudden. And it just keeps leapfrogging back and forth, depends who released most recently.

But you know, the underlying trend there is the rate of improvement is beyond anything anyone expected. So the total size of the pie is bigger and faster than anyone would have estimated a year ago. And so, you know, the pessimist scenario here is, yeah, Ilya Sutskover isn't afraid of OpenAI. Mira Moradi is clearly not afraid of OpenAI. So if you've got all of your former co-founders starting new foundation model companies, doesn't that scare you a little bit?

Yeah. Then, you know, there's a counter-argon in the counter-argon. If you have 40 billion, of which're marking half of it to compute, there is a capital wins the race kind of argument you could make here too where look, if you're ahead in the capital raising, you're just ahead. Yeah, you know, it's interesting is Mira, I think her, her founding valuation was like three or four billion and Ilya's founding valuation was like nine billion. I mean, that's pretty damn good as an entrepreneur. It's like, yeah.

Wow. Ilya's actually at 30 billion. Oh, 30 billion. Great. Fantastic. I mean, it's just a shockingly big number. But investors are risk- are risk adjusted return machines. And when the upside, even if it's a, you know, medium, the low probability of winning the

race, but the upside is in the trillions, then it's still an intelligent bet. So there is that factor too. Everybody, I hope you're enjoying this episode. You know, earlier this year, I was joined on stage at the 2025 Abundance Summit by a rock star group of entrepreneurs, CEOs, investors, focused on the vision and future for AGI, humanoid robotics, longevity, blockchain, basically the next trillion dollar opportunities. If you weren't at the Abundance Summit, it's not too late. You can watch the entire Abundance Summit online by going to exponentialmastery.com.

That's exponentialmastery.com. I'm curious, Salim, can OpenAI go public with all of the overhang it has with the nonprofit debate and with the lawsuits that are in place? If you can raise this much money in the private markets, why would you even think about going public? Right? You could stay private for a long time and wait for that. Typically, people go public because they want to raise money, etc. If you have no problem raising money, then why go public? You see that across the board. There's almost no public AI companies over 10 million in revenue. You either have the really, really big ones or nothing.

Well, Peter, you usually have access to everything. Did you see the pitch deck on this one? Did it talk about the security pathways? I didn't. Nor would I have the capacity to get into it. What we haven't talked about as well that just happened was the merger of X and XAI, which I did see, right? I'm an investor in XAI and that was a pretty spectacular move. Yeah. Any thoughts on that one? I mean, a really easy way to block off his downside and just merge it in. Right. And the combination of AI plus the massive data set is incredible. Yeah. I have a, I think a very firm opinion on this one. So that, uh, there are two ways to make a fortune as a foundation model company,

but one of them, which I think Sam and Elon both realize is displacing Google and being a direct consumer brand. And in that model, you know, Google's worth a couple trillion dollars, it's 300 billion dollars a year of almost pure cash flow. And so you don't have to be the best AI model forever if all of the consumers go to you as the first place they go on the internet. And clearly people are moving at an incredible rate toward chat GPT or Grok as the first place they go on the internet. So I think Anthropic isn't playing that game and Perplexity is. But you know what I didn't see the deck on this one either but one of the first things that probably was in the deck is

look here's Google, here's where people are going, here are the horses in the race. Now, Elon's got all the Twitter data, he's made that clear over and over and over again. And, you know, up to date real time information is a big part of what people search and ask about, you know, sports scores and, you know, all that stuff that's in the news today. And I think they're uniquely positioned to win that race regardless of the underpinnings of foundation models. So that would make those very, very good bets regardless of Core AI.

I mean, if you're a Hax.ai shareholder, you should be very happy. Yeah, I am. But you have to believe that OpenAI is gonna become a multi-trillion dollar company to invest 40 billion at that valuation. I mean, you don't invest unless you've got a 10X upside for a company like this. Dave?

Yeah, well, I'll give you one... Yeah. Go ahead. Well, one counter-exact. Well, SoftBank makes many, many, many, many ecosystem investments in addition to its core platform investments. So the other way, you could make money, even if this is a liquid for many years to come, but it's the centerpiece of an entire ecosystem, you can basically

land any venture deal you want. And because to me, what's really obvious right now, just as an investor is that the use case, the vertical applications is the best investment time I've ever seen by such a wide margin. For sure. Every one of those boats is rising with the tide. So it is possible that the rationale here is not about trying to get a 10X on this deal, maybe just breaking even or 2X on this deal is a great outcome, but you get

20, 30, 40 other investments that are in an ecosystem. Uh, you can easily make up for it. Well, you're not losing money on this either. So, yeah, I would guess Soft Bank and Microsoft wants to see all the application layers sitting on top of OpenAI. Yeah. You know, Dave, you're seeing,

I mean, listen, for those who don't know, you run an extraordinary incubator basically on the campus of MIT, like a block from MIT, and you see hundreds of AI entrepreneurs through the year, and you back how many companies per year at LinkXPV? Well, normally it'd be 10. Now it's about 30.

Everything's three times faster and bigger than I've seen before. Crazy. So how are they thinking about, how are those entrepreneurs thinking about OpenAI versus Anthropic versus Grok? So what's the feeling? Do they have a favorite? No, they don't. They're all multi-API. They all use all of them in parallel, especially the code generation companies, but all of them use everything. The debate they have is do we want

an open source, Lama 3 or DDC? Can we run it on our own hardware? Or do we want an open source llama 3 or DDC? Can we want to run it on our own hardware or do we want to be API dependent? And the problem with being a API dependent is if it's slow or you know open AI you saw what happened with With usage this past week, you know, it can get overloaded and And that could be bad for your user experience. So they like to have an open source model running in their own universe just as a Control point but every one of them is using everything because you see how they leapfrog each other So they like to have an open source model running in their own universe just as a control point. But every one of them is using everything because you see how they leapfrog each other. You can't afford to be tied to one and then find out, you know, for one use case, one of them leapfrog the others.

This is the part I struggle with with this particular investment is that the foundational model space has been commoditized already. There's several that are nearly as good as each other. And therefore therefore it's really hard to make a really one bet in favor. Ecosystem approach or access to some weird applications would be the only way of rationalizing this. You just got back from Europe, Saleem. So what's the buzz there? How does, you know, what was it like in Helsinki and London and wherever the hell you were? I mean, it's like, is it, do they view the US as dominant? Are they, is Mistral their darling? How do you think about it from a European standpoint? I think what we're seeing, what I'm hearing there, and I was in a whole bunch of conversations

over there, I saw two things. One is kind of incredible what's coming out of the US, both technologically and politically, which we don't need to get into. But the second part was that there are so many amazing cracks at the pinata coming from China and India, open source type of deep-seek equivalents that this whole thing is moving faster than anybody possibly could have believed India what's what's what's coming from India? Well, what they're doing in India is they're actually applying it in hacked ways, you know, I put out a We did a talk a couple weeks ago Peter and I said that I saw a startup that had a full

Peter and I said that I saw a startup that had a full AI doctor coming out in the next like towards the end of this year and I got three pings, two from India saying we've already got a fully fledged AI doctor live and running here's the link. I was like whoa so I think the application side of it they're actually using some of these models very aggressively probably with local use cases but it's starting to get, because why? Because the democratization and the cost of access is so low. Right? You can try it for lots of things. India desperately needs it, right, with 1.41 billion people.

The only way they survive and they know this is by demonetizing education and health care using AI. Let's go to our next story. And this paints the picture of the universe that you're living in, Dave, and full disclosure, you know, I'm a partner with Dave in exponential, in Link exponential Ventures, but here's the headline, if you're listening to this versus watching it on YouTube, Mercore AI recruiting startup founded by a 21 year old

raises $100 million. So, Dave, let's tell the story of Mercore AI recruiting startup founded by a 21 year old, raises $100 million. So Dave, let's tell the story of Mercore because it's crazy. This is, and by the way, this is one of two, two billion dollar success stories in the portfolio, right? Yeah, and I've researched that. That has happened according to Chetgypt, maybe not totally reliable,

but it's happened about five, six times in the history of the world and now you've got two that I know Define what happened five or six times say it again Reaching a multi-billion dollar valuation in under two years from founding day nice, which you know when you think about that That's crazy, right? You know people work a lifetime to get nowhere near that target So so it makes sense that it's extremely rare. But I suspect in two years we'll have, you know, multiples of that in terms of case studies to point to. So this is one of the first, it's a real bellwether.

But you know, every team I meet now is like, yeah, I know Merckor, I know it really, really well. It's an inspiration, I love it. So the story has definitely gotten around the startup community. But the thing that makes this story exceptional relative to the other mega successes is that Brendan Pudi, the CEO, just turned 21 recently.

And that's a sign of the times. I mean, when you look at startups over history, the gating factor to getting to huge valuation quickly usually means you need to learn something, you need to do something that takes time. Usually that's managing hundreds of people. You can't just be 20, 21 years old, wake up and be a great manager of a team of a thousand.

But now with AI as your workforce or your workforce multiplier, you can get there with 15, 20 people, which is well within the comfort zone of a great 21 year old leader. Yeah. That takes a lot of the time to market out of the equation and so you know you know we people have been predicting this for a while they just didn't really believe their own predictions until now they see it but there's gonna be a company with two or

three people that reaches a multi-billion dollar valuation sometime very soon. Yeah we've been saying that for a while, Sleem, right? The one or two person unicorn. Yeah. And it's happening, and it's going to happen at an increasing pace. Let me share two data points that I find fascinating that come from you, Dave,

so you can expand on them. One is that I think it's like 70%, 75% of incoming MIT freshmen want to start a company before they graduate, which is pretty extraordinary. And the second is that the average that the, if you look at a histogram of the age at which a founder started a VC-backed billion-dollar unicorn, it used to be early mid- 30s when they started. Now there's a huge peak in the 20 to 23 year old category.

So Dave, what's happening there? Well, I think the reality is that 20 to 24 year olds have always had that in them, but they were hobbled. Everything is about unhobbling these days. So what was holding them back? Because obviously, your peak IQ, if you look at Nobel Prize winning research, it's done very early in life. So your IQ is absolutely peak. You have that capability. What holds you back? Yeah. Credibility has always held you back. The incubator environment, incubators and accelerators

now account for the vast majority of successful startups. And you know, when we started doing this, it was maybe 7% of companies went through any kind of accelerator program. Now it's the vast majority. And they way outperform the ones that are not in an incubator or an accelerator. And so why is that? Well, the incubators and accelerators are all about providing everything that a 20, 22-year-old, 24-year-old founder hasn't learned to do yet. So we do, you know, for our companies here in this office, we do the accounting, we do the big data,

we do the networking, we do the legal and incorporation. Two weeks ago, I bought an apartment building across the street from MIT that can hold six teams, four bedrooms, or six bedrooms, six units, four bedrooms each. And that was actually based on this Mercure story. I was telling our team here, look, these guys went up in value from the day we invested. They went up $20 million a week in valuation. So if I could go to Brendan and say, hey, Brendan, I can save you a week looking for a place to live for your team, that pays for the building by itself.

So I just wrote the $5.5 million check and said, get the building, let's start populating it. So yeah, it's just all about those un-hobblings. So now you have capital, you have support, and now with your AI workforce, you have the mass, the workforce that you need to get to these targets. And I was teaching at MIT this morning, actually, and I was telling the students, it's foundations of AI Ventures,

so it's all about creating these companies. But I was saying, look, guys, right now, you just gotta sprint, don't overthink things. Look at Mercore, look at what they built. It's just really, really clear that there are many, many other Mercor's to be built in parallel markets. Don't ever think it just run like hell. But by the way, you should take a second and tell people what does Mercor do?

Oh, that's a good point. I didn't even mention that. So Mercor discovered that you can interview people all over the world with an AI face and voice far more effectively than an HR department can interview them, especially for technical jobs, but it's growing out rapidly from there. And you can imagine that the customers, you know, the biggest customers are Meta is the biggest and then, you know, the other AI forward companies like a Tesla type are right behind that. And you can imagine if you went to a bank, you know, like Bank of America and said,

hey, I want to use AI to interview all your future hires. They're going to vomit, right? They're a bank and their HR department is going to go, no, I don't know why they're going to go into business. Exactly. Exactly. But if you're better, you just embrace it and you run with it and they love it.

Yeah. Salim? I think there's one more thing that's going on with these young founders. You know, when I was building computing systems originally, the internet wave came along and there was you had to be kind of young enough to be native in internet speak and HTML and all the protocols to be able to get your head around it. Whereas people like me had to unlearn a whole bunch of stuff and relearn new ideas. We saw the same thing with blockchain where there's some bylaw that you have to be under

25 to program a blockchain, right? And you skew younger because just getting your head around it requires a huge amount of effort if you've been around for a while. And whereas if you're young enough, you go, oh, there's this thing, this is what it's capable of, I just start using it. I think these AI systems are very much the same, where you have the benefit of youth, you don't have to unlearn 10 years of a previous paradigm. You can lock onto this new thing and move quickly with it. So I think there's something about that in there also. Yeah, it's being a digital native.

Yeah, we try and get everyone to read The Future is Faster than You Think because it really makes that point. And also Malcolm Gladwell Outliers, which makes the point that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, born the exact same year, that can't be coincidence, right? And it's not because they're both 21 when the PC starts to come out. And at age 21, you're old enough to start a company but you're young enough that you're not trapped by all the baggage you know all the like oh I'm halfway done with my whatever yeah right yeah whatever it is yeah here's our here's our next story from fortune says 1 million users sign up for chat GPT in 60 minutes after

a viral image generation feature is unveiled. And for about two days, every single person was pumping these out on X. I mean, don't these people have a life? This is what's going to get them to sign up. This is their life. You've got to get to that, Peter. I guess this is why you have to be digitally native today. This is me and Palmer Lucky in the image here.

I can tell Palmer because he's wearing a Hawaiian shirt and he's got a mullet, but I don't know that that's me. At least it's not my self-image of me, but what the heck. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I think we promised everybody that something would blow your mind in AI every single month from here forward until we hit the singularity and then, of course, thereafter every single minute.

And this is a good example of it. And one of the first companies we incubated here, Course Advisor, I sold it to The Washington Post, Don Graham. And so as part of that deal, I ended up consulting to him right as he was trying to save the Washington Post from the internet. And it was a really tragic but fun year, because there's no way you were gonna save

the Washington Post from the internet. It was a relentless onslaught and mainstream media was pretty much doomed because the internet was taking the audience. And so now kind of living that all over again, every time something like this happens, the eyeballs came from something else. But people love to interact and engage and create

a lot more than they like to be passive and watch a movie or watch a TV show. And that's where it's coming from. It's coming out of there and it's going here. And so, you know, this particular thing will come and go, but because something else overrode it that's even more interesting, but those are gonna keep coming out at light speed now.

And it's gonna take the audience away. It's a massive industry that's just gonna move to interactive AI driven things. But the number one use case for AI is companionship. And that's only going up from here. We can talk about that. I saw a note on X from Elon saying he expects short video movies are going to be becoming dominant very shortly and then Emon posted full motion picture length next year.

And so I think it's going to be interesting, right, when you go to some new version of Netflix, where it's got this massive amount of films that are being crowd sourced and crowd voted up, and the level of creativity, you know, we've seen the decimation of Hollywood a few times, I think we're going to see yet another wave of disruption coming. Yeah. Did you play with Sesame at all, the super, super empathetic AI voices? I've just been out a few weeks. I played with them on ChatGPT. I played with the unhinged version

of GROK, which is kind of insane if you've not played with it. I recommend not doing it around your kids. So no, I haven't. But I think empathy is solved. Salim, I haven't. But I think empathy is solved. You know, Celine, we've had that conversation, right? I mean, these AI's are far more empathic than any human I know. Yeah, I mean, you could mimic empathy and get 99.9% of the

way there and we're easily there. Yeah, yeah. I think when you when you listen to the super, super engaging voices, they're not married to the best LLM content yet, and that'll come out within the next, I'm going to guess, within the next month to two months. It's a little bit technically challenging to put the two things together because to get super sympathetic, you have to run very, very quickly. And to get the best possible answer, you have to run a trillion, two trillion kind of parameter

model. And so that'll all come together. It's just inference time compute bound right now, but that'll come together very, very soon. But when you hear those voices, you're like, oh my God, this is just so captivating. I can't believe it. And so the Sesame website got so overloaded with people playing with it that it was up to millions of concurrent users

and then you couldn't get in. I think it's back to you'd settle down now, you can play with it if you wanna check it out at sesamie.com. Here's the next article from TechCrunch. It said, Earth's AI algorithms found critical minerals in places everyone else ignored. And this is the story of abundance. This is the key point I was trying to make in the book

now, God, 13 years ago, that everything's there. We just haven't found it or got it in a usable form yet. And so AI discovers copper, gold, silver, and in regions overlooked in Australia, combining historical geological data and custom drilling. I mean, we've talked about this, Sal Salim a number of times, haven't we? We have. I mean, the data point I used to use before was,

in the last 20 years, about 40% of all oil and gas deposits have been discovered using digital searching new sensors. So therefore, that's just gonna go to other areas. This was a matter of time. It's fantastic to see it. I think it's such a great example of democratization and demonetization. And right, hits right to the core of your abundance thesis that technology delivers a domain, any domain from scarcity to abundance. Do you know anything about the sensors they used to discover this?

Because this story was new to me. I don't, but I'll tell you, there's a great story I wrote about in, it was probably in bold. It was the Gold Corp. McEwen, John McEwen? Yeah, yeah, no, it's Rob McEwen. He owned a large gold mine and he gathered all of his engineers and geologists together one day and he said, show me where to find the next six million ounces of gold.

And they basically said, huh? I have no idea. And he goes, you're fired, right? And then what he did was something very unusual. He took all of his geological data, which for a mining company that's usually kept in a safe, and he didn't, the web wasn't up then. He put it on DVDs and he announced a gold corp mining competition. I forget how much it was. I think it was a half a million dollars.

It was half a million dollars for whoever could find the next six million. Yeah, and so anybody who wanted could write to him and he sent them a CD-ROM of all their mining data, like all the secret stuff, right? And what was amazing, he had hundreds of teams enter and the winning team, there were two teams that won. One was in I think Australia and I think the other one was in Russia, and they never visited the mine. And they found the next six million ounces of gold by looking at the data.

The answer is in the data. Crazy. His market cap went from 50 million to three billion at a cost of a half a million, just by breaking conventions. It's such an incredible story. The way they did it was they saw patterns in the data that says, oh, we mine nickel. When we see that pattern, it typically indicates a deposit over here.

They used the pattern recognition you might have for nickel or some of these other metals, and they applied it to gold. The gold people always had their own way, never looked at the nickel data. And so despite cross-mapping, they thought, this is where we think you'll find a bunch, and they found it. Yeah, that's great.

I remember the original question was, how big should I have the gold processing facility? And people were saying, we don't know, how much gold there is in there. And he's like, what am I paying you for? Yeah, Rob is now a... It reminds me. Rob's a trustee or

board member of the XPRIZE, one of our benefactors, so it's been fun to get to know him and his wife Cheryl. Yeah, Dave, you were saying? Oh, that reminds me a lot of the original thesis of the Avatar XPRIZE, where the whole goal was, hey, you don't have to go places to do things, because why would you go places? You've got high-def cameras, you know, anywhere and then in this particular case the data is going to be not visual anyway. It's going to be some kind of, you know, out of high band sensor. So what's the advantage of going to Australia to look? It makes no sense. Just stay where you are, get the data to come to you. So it's a good early

use case that proves the point. I should also note for our beloved listeners that both Dave and Salim are members of my board directors of the XPRIZE, which is fun. I get to see you once a quarter at those meetings. Next on our news. It's, hang on, just getting to inspire teams to work on the hardest problems in the world is about as fun a job as you could ever get.

So this is an awesome thing. It really is. So gotta love this next title here. Apple's top executive calls AI crisis ugly and embarrassing. So, oh my God, it's about time guys. I mean, listen, I've tweeted this a dozen times, Siri sucks so bad. It's like, it really pisses me off.

Oh God. Honestly, it's like- So, wait, stand up for Apple, cause I'm not going to. No, no, it's a standard big company innovators dilemma. If you're a big company, it just takes forever to roll out features, right? And you have to go through control frameworks and system setting, integration testing, privacy

testing. My favorite story around this is at Yahoo when I was running their incubator. It typically took Yahoo about eight months to roll out a new feature because you'd code the feature and then you had all this testing, brand testing, all this other stuff. A hundred teams would look at it and send it back to you. And then Zuckerberg comes along and says to his developers, if you think your feature is ready, go take it live on the site. Here you go.

And you better be right, because it'll cost you a job if you take down the site. And the developers were so excited. They were rolling out a feature a week and totally blew past Yahoo, Myspace and everybody else. And so this is, I think the difficulty at Apple, which is the control framework of being careful and cautious in a big company totally takes out the ability,

if you're on the consumer internet, the two characteristics you better have are speed and risk. Well, I feel like I'm living a repeat movie here, and I hate to say it, but I mean, I loved my original Mac, you know, I'm sure you did to Peter. And then after Steve Jobs got booted, it got so bad that you just literally had to move over to a PC and it was torture or a son at the time. But and you hated every minute of it, but you just couldn't live on the Mac anymore. It's such a piece of crap post Steve Jobs. And then the Newton came out and it's like the whole company was basically bankrupt. Then Steve Jobs comes back and then

the next wave of Macs that were Linux based were just unbelievable, like out of nowhere. It's the cult of personality. This is the thing that Elon Musk has mastered now. You just have to be a cool leader online that people want to work for to get the critical talent that you need to stay on the cutting edge. And so you need a through line. You need a through line of a vision. You know, one of the things I learned years ago is the best movies in the world have a single director and a single writer, and they have a clear vision and they execute on it. The movies that are crap are the ones that have gone through 15 revisions and there's third director and it's a mess. Right? So, if anything, Jobs was the orchestra conductor that had a very clear vision on this.

The problem is he built... In Apple's defense, this is about as hard a thing as a big company could ever face is when do you integrate some cutting-edge new thing when you don't know how long it's going to be around, even if it might only be a week before it's out of date by the time you've implemented it. So the speed of the development of AI, as Dave referenced earlier, makes it unbelievably hard as to when do you place your chips. Well, that sounds like it's pathetic, but I but but putting that aside, this is what makes America work. And what makes it great is the constant turnover of talent

because because at the end of the day, startups have no chance whatsoever against huge companies like Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, except for the fact that this happens. And so that engine of turnover is actually very, very healthy. You know, I hate to see the dysfunction in my devices, but you know, it does keep the startups moving and it's just the nature of talent. Can we talk about your worst iPhone Siri moments? I mean, mine that really pisses me off is like, I'll text Kristin and her name is right there.

That's who I'm texting. You can spell the name. It's K-R-I-S-T-E-N. And it will spell her name three different ways in the course of the text. It's like, no, no, it's right there. And it spells my name P-I-T-E-R. It's like, honestly, I mean, what, I mean, consistently spell it with an I in there is like stop it I don't know. Yeah, I can't comment as I use an Android. Ah

Okay, I Asked my wife. I mean I'm saying effing Apple like ten times a day. She hears it It does a linear things, but the thing is, you know, I'm not price sensitive I'm ultra time sensitive and I need things to work. And that used to be Apple's brand, right? And now we make money on every song, we make money on every movie you download. We've got like, okay, but what's the core mission, guys?

Just make it the out of the box experience that's perfect. You have the money to do it. Make it beautiful, make it work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah for sure All right Here's another fun story. I from Fox News, Texas private schools use a new AI tutor Rockets the top 2% in the country and I actually know this story Price McKenzie Is who runs this school, is a friend. She's been a member of my Abundance 360 membership.

And she's built this school in the Texas ecosystem, serving a lot of the families out of Tesla and SpaceX. And the adjoining story here, which I think is fascinating, is we just saw that Beijing made a proclamation that in September of 2025, this coming fall, primary and secondary schools will baseline AI as part of their educational program. And then Estonia did the same. And I'm pissed that we still think of AI as shackles for our kids or cheating for our kids versus a jet pack.

So thoughts here, I mean, Dave, you have three amazing kids, you have been mentoring them in AI. Four amazing kids, yeah. Mentoring them in AI for amazing kids. Yeah mentoring them in AI talk about this would you? Yeah, you know, I don't know if you remember but Mira will check one of our partners here wrote an entire book with GPT 2 which is an incredible when you think about it hindsight took it to Davos in 2019 and showed all the world leaders on stage I wrote an entire book using AI get ready for what's coming

She might as well have finished the presentation by saying buy Nvidia stock and try and get invested in open AI if you can All the world leaders were like, I don't care. I don't know what you just said I'm like, oh my god talk about being asleep at the wheel, but the kids are all Oh my God, talk about being asleep at the wheel. But the kids are all over it. Now I was really, you know, kind of because of what we do, I had all four of my kids go through MIT's, you know, success 191 introduction to deep learning,

which anyone can take online. So I had them all go through it early. So, you know, my wife is the best wife ever, unbelievably supportive of all of this, you know, happy to lend the kids to any of these AI missions. But now when you talk to the kids, they're like, yeah, it's crystal clear that education is completely going to go to AI. And you know, what I can ask the AI today, even with today's technology, any of my classes,

anything that the teacher says is already in there and it's much more efficient for me to talk to AI to get the same lessons. So they're going through the motions, you know, trying to get through it as quickly 21 year old discussion reminds me of my favorite commentary here from Douglas Adams who wrote Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and he said anything in the world when you're born we call that normal, anything that's invented when you're young that's called a career and anything that's invented after you're 35 years old is just bad, it's just bad for the world. It's a great glimpse of human nature to see stuff and just not get it unless you're below that age where it's native to you. I'll be really interested to see how this plays out because the data is going to be

crystal clear that this is a better way to learn and the kids are going to be clamoring for it. Meanwhile, we have all these teachers unions and I've been talking to the governor here in Massachusetts. We have a phenomenal governor, Maura Healy, she's brilliant. It's gonna be a challenge for her though because it's one of the biggest unions and you know they're not gonna lose their jobs. That is the immune system. Yeah so Saleem, you know your son and my son, my two sons, they're all 13, they're middle school. How do you think about this? Well, what I'm seeing is the school allows them

to use a chat GPT, but theoretically not for homework. What I see him doing is looking up a math problem, looking it up on AI, coming back, looking it up over, coming back. And frankly, he watches how the AI solves it and he learns from it and then he does it. And how much more different from real life. I mean, that is the way in which we learn.

We watch a master at it and we mimic it. And you get the concepts into your head and then you do, you ground it by repetition. I think that's just a standard pattern. It's just that, you know, if you go back in history, learning and education was one-to-one. You had your tutor, you were an apprentice to a master, you had your guru if you're in India, and then we turned into a one-to-many where you had one teacher and many students, right? And then with the internet we turned it again many-to-many where many students can have many teachers, but now we've blown open the supply side and the teaching can be any one AI could teach to blow the socks off almost any teacher in the

world and that is going to change the game. There's gonna be some countries and some education systems that take advantage of that and we're gonna go from push-based education where you try and get kids into a classroom when you're trying to cram algebra into them into pull-based learning systems where you take on a project, you pick an MTP, and you pull down the learning you need for the tasks you're trying to do. And I think as we make that transition,

it's just really painful for the legacy systems. Yeah, I think the teachers... Yeah, they're one of the... Yeah, are going to be a major issue. I mean, I went into my kids' new school, because I took them out of the old school, really to get them into a school that was much more progressive in learning and philosophy and I think leadership

skills. And the realization I've had is if you allow your kids to use AI in middle school to solve middle school problems, it's meaningless. But you could give your middle school kids college problems and have them use AI and learn to use these tools to do extraordinary things that they never thought they could do. It drives confidence.

It drives sort of upleveling of their ambitions. I think that's really what we need to get to. Dave, sorry, what were you going to say? Well, I mean, there was a period of time where everyone at MIT needed to learn to use a slide roll and obviously became absolutely stupid at some point. We're in that moment. It's just happening way too quickly for people to adapt.

But I can't tell you how many middle school and high school students that never would have written code are now vibe coding with lovable or replete or cursor and loving it. And, you know, vibe coding is just flat out fun, but you're creating the exact same stuff that a Python developer or a C developer would have done last year. And that is just great for the kids. But when you look at the underlying curriculum that they have to go through in middle school and high school, like that curriculum hasn't been updated since Isaac Newton.

The world has, seriously, that is the exact calculus. And you know, the chemistry, yeah, we added a little bit of quantum to it, but I mean, it's basically, it's basically the same chemistry, same biology, but human knowledge has grown, what, you know, a billion X. Is this the right thing to learn just because there's an SAT or an AP test for it? That's why we're gonna learn this? That's just nutty. And you'll never use it again.

And you'll never, you know, although I just looked at a friend of mine when my cousin's sons were, is taking his SATs and I flipped open the book to look at, you know, his ACTs and SATs and I'm looking at the questions they're asking. I'm going, this is crazy.

When I knew this stuff and I would never use it again for the rest of my life. Well, I mean, what you do need to know has grown so much in that same timeframe. You don't have time to cram useless stuff into your brain in today's day and age. And so you're doing a huge education process is doing this massive disservice by occupying all the time. Yes. Agreed. Salim?

Yeah. You have that realization of what you're not going to use this stuff when you leave. Unfortunately, that hit me in the middle of university because I went through this co-op program and I would be going out to work every four months. And I did a couple of work terms that controlled data, helping design some large-scale chip boards, etc. And I come back to school and then listening to some lecture where something is orbiting a star at X number light years of radius

and what's the orbital pathway? And you're like, I am never going to use this. Please let me get out of it. And I barely got my degree. Oh, I got it. Lord help us. It's about 13 years ago, I had my two kids, my two boys. And I remember at that moment in time, I made a decision to double down on my health. Without question, I wanted to see their kids, their grandkids. And really, you know, during this extraordinary time, where the space frontier and AI and really, you know, during this extraordinary time where the space frontier and AI and crypto is all exploding, it was like the most exciting time ever to be alive.

And I made a decision to double down on my health. And I've done that in three key areas. The first is going every year for a fountain upload. You know, fountain is one of the most advanced diagnostics and therapeutics companies. I go there, upload myself, digitize myself, about 200 gigabytes of data that the AI system is able to look at to catch disease at inception. You know, look for any cardiovascular, any cancer, neurodegenerative disease, any metabolic disease. These things are all going on all the time,

and you can prevent them if you can find them at inception. So super important. So Fountain is one of my keys. I make it available to the CEOs of all my companies, my family members, because health is in you wealth. But beyond that, we are a collection of 40 trillion human cells and about another 100 trillion bacterial cells, fungi, viri. And we don't understand how that impacts us.

And so I use a company and a product called Viome. And Viome has a technology called Metatranscriptomics, it was actually developed in New Mexico, the same place where the nuclear bomb was developed, as a bio-defense weapon, and their technology is able to help you understand what's going on in your body, to understand which bacteria are producing which proteins, and as a consequence of that, what foods are your super foods that are best for you to eat? Or what food should you avoid? What's going on in your oral microbiome?

So I use their testing to understand my foods, understand my medicines, understand my supplements, and Viome really helps me understand from a biological and data standpoint, what's best for me? And then finally, feeling good, being intelligent, moving well is critical, but looking good. When you look yourself in the mirror, saying, I feel great about life is so important, right? And so a product I use every day, twice a day,

is called One Skin, developed by four incredible PhD women that found this 10-amino acid peptide that's able to zap senile cells in your skin and really help you stay youthful in your look and appearance. So for me, these are three technologies I love and I use all the time. I'll have my team link to those in the show notes down below. Please check them out. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed that. to those in the show notes down below. Please check them out. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed that.

Now back to the episode. So let's turn the subject to coding because I've seen a number of people out there, you know, EMOD on the abundance stage said this a number of years ago, you know, in five years there are going to be no more coders. And so learning to code traditionally, right? People are saying is now dead, don't teach your kids to code. Dave, what do you think about that? Yeah, it's amazing how it's always the head of the curve.

Actually, I think I think this is a common thing in your in your network, Peter is that if everyone going back to Ray Kurtzweil, said exactly what they said, five or 10 years later, they would be Jensen Huang. But because they're such great forward thinkers, they're always ahead of the curve. And that was exactly right. And it's all happening, you know, faster than anyone would have anticipated. And we're in a transition point right now where if you want to build industrial strength software, you still need to code. But you know it's going to be game over within, certainly within 2025.

And then everything will move to vibe coding. But the good bet right now is to build whatever comes easily through vibe coding. Don't even look at the code. If it doesn't do what you want it to do, just wait. Because as soon as you get in there and try and debug it, you know, one of our companies, Blitzy here, writes three million lines of code in a single night. So three million lines of code, that'd be $300 million worth of R&D that would have taken you three years if you had $300 million lying around and you got it in a single night. And then if you say, well, it doesn't do exactly what I want it to do, let me start debugging

it. Like, how did you debug three million lines of code? You're dead. So what you do instead is you just keep talking to it and fix the modules you can through voice and then just wait a couple months and the rest will get fixed too. And that's where we are.

That is insane. All right, our next story is dominance of Gemini. So Gemini 2.5 Pro is the most powerful model yet and free. So I love this. First of all, I love Google. I've had a long love affair with Google just because I knew Larry and Sergey and Eric early on and they were big supporters of the XPRI. So I'm super biased about it in that regard.

And I still go back to the fact that Google really led the charge in AI to a huge degree with their papers on attention and on the early work that they did. And they chose not to release their AI code early because they felt like society wasn't ready for it. But when OpenAI released ChatGPT and the world was like, oh, OpenAI, you know, it forced them to take action. We've had that conversation before, Salim. So I like the fact that they're still up there and leading the charge. Thoughts, Salim, how do you feel about all this? I think this is what Dave talked about earlier in the leapfrogging.

All these models just kind of step past each other in different ways. I was kind of blown away by how good 2.5 was. It's really, really impressive. All these different domains as well. So really, really happy to see it. And it gives, you know, Larry and Sergey, I understand, came back to kind of drive the initiatives here. Sergey, I understand, came back to kind of drive the initiatives here. Sergey did, yes.

Yeah, it talks, it gives you the sense of why a founder-led initiative is such an important thing. You bring that energy of that original vision and the drive and the passion, and then everybody gets motivated. So I think it's a bunch of different commentaries here, but I thought the model was fantastic. Yeah. but I thought the model was fantastic. Yeah, it's funny, I've got Gemini 2.5, Anthropic, ChatGPT and GROK open always on my Chrome tabs. And I'm just, it's interesting what I use for what.

Anyway, Dave, what are you thinking here? Well, first of all, I gotta say, one of the best things that ever happened in the Nobel Prize world is Denis Osavis got a Nobel Prize and then Jeffrey Hinton, who I've loved since 1988, I guess, 86, because he invented backpropagation. But they had to really stretch the definitions of the Nobel prizes to give two guys AI, AI guys prizes in chemistry and physics, but it was the right, the right two recipients. So Dennis has been sitting on the...

So good. Huge props to the Nobel committee for doing this. That took a big leap and I really, really respect them for stepping out of their comfort zone. Well, they're going to have a real challenge. They're going to have a real challenge. They're going to have a challenge going forward, right? Because almost every single major discovery is going to come on the back of AI algorithms.

That's why it's so brilliant that they cracked open the door here because they're just early on recognizing that that's the way it is. But these innovations are still huge benefits for mankind. So the fact that it came from an AI person and not from somebody who toiled away in a chemistry lab for many years, that's totally fine because they just they just like it's a lame. You're dead, right? It was incredibly gutsy of them to give out those two prizes There's I have fun, you know I was just in Helsinki

I've a lot of fun with the Nordics because they always complained about it's hard to compete with German engineering and And I'm like, okay, give me one internet innovation that has come from Germany ever and there's never one. And yet you look at Scandinavia and you've got PHP, Skype, you name it, came from that. And one of my favorite was- You just named the two that I know. I don't know any others. There's a bunch of them. Oh, okay. There's a bunch of them. Spotify, you know, the list just goes on and on. But one of my favorite stories is I was doing a session in Copenhagen at Neil Bohr's house

where they did the Copenhagen interpretation. And I was talking to the head of the Carlsberg Foundation. He gave me this amazing story. In the 1830s, the master brewer at Carlsberg Brewery invented the yeast that didn't get you sick. Up to then when you drank beer, you got sick. And so the lawyers got all excited saying, wow, patent this, we'll make a ton of money

by licensing this yeast to other people. And the brewer is super upset because he was a beer fan. So he made 140 copies of this yeast and sent it out to the 140 major breweries around the world without telling the lawyers. It was the first great example of open source. He open-sourced the beer and ten years later the amount of beer drunk in the world had risen 10x. Wow. This is a great example. Have you checked out Humanity's last exam? It's the hardest. I was about to ask you.

Tell us about it, because I mean, that is, I mean, that feels like the measuring stick we need to be paying attention to. Oh my God. So Geminis is up close to about 20% on that test, which is nutty. You ought to splice in a couple of example questions from that test in there.

You could never answer even a single one of them. They're the hardest questions in every field of human endeavor, including math and physics and everything else. But just the domain knowledge to understand what the question's asking you is off the charts for any normal human being. And this model's up close to 20%. Does it solve the ability for men and women to understand each other's thoughts? Yeah, no, that's out of range.

I want to ask you what you think of Lama, though. You know, Lama 4 will be out before too long. So to me, the Gemini 2.5 release is just leapfrogging, but it's exactly what you'd expect every time there's a release from any of the big guys. It leapfrogs everyone else for a little while. And so I think that what's interesting to me is that the team at Google has to be very, very cautious with safety and security and privacy and they have that new paper out and everything.

The team at OpenAI is fundamentally Microsoft's bet in addition to being OpenAI and they'll leapfrog this, I'm sure. But then Mark Zuckerberg to me is is I got to tell you a story Actually, so mark Zuckerberg is the sort of founder leader still in control driving AI, you know with open source and We we just invested in a Harvard team yesterday and signed the deal in Mark Zuckerberg's dorm room Got some great pictures of it and there's so they're trying to walk right on their footsteps, but it was super fun.

But what do you guys think? You know, do you think Mark will then keep up with these guys or not? I think the great aspect here is the fact that open source will, we have a section in the book, in the EXO book called Open Beats Closed. And we've seen over time throughout history that open models beat closed models and we've we're at that point now Because there's just so many more eyes and attention that can go to it and it evolve it very quickly

I'm super excited about what we're gonna see in llama for and so Elon is the other sort of founder originator guy in the race Do you think he'll like if you had to pick one, everyone has their specific advantages. So you got four choices and maybe there are others too. Maybe DeepSeek is a fifth choice. But which one would you bet on? I tend to bet on Grok. I just think he's got an unlimited checkbook and he's got a massive amount of data coming from X and from Tesla and from humanoid robots. Yeah. Celine? I think bet for what purpose? Do you mean betting on building the best next model or lasting over time? Good question. How about just the humanities last exam benchmark who has the highest score two years from today? Oh I think it's gonna be an unknown entrant. I think something's gonna come out of the blue. You heard it here first folks. Okay. Because we've seen that throughout history you know we thought nobody was ever gonna

beat Yahoo and then Google came along and blew that past and then Facebook came along and blew past that. Open AI comes along out of nowhere and blows past everybody else. So I think that's the pattern that we've seen throughout history. You'd be hard pressed to bet against the unknown entrant. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you one thing.

Elon was very, very early to recognize that who gets the chips is a huge factor in that question and so he put himself in a position now where he has a lot of control over who first of all what gets manufactured at TSMC and Intel a lot of control over that and then who gets the supply he has a lot of control over that so that is a pretty important and who gets access to get access to transformers and electricity and the entire supply chain for getting intelligence out the door. You know, I miss the idea of testing a human IQ on this.

You know, we were measuring human IQ and then we had GPT-03 or 01 with 120. We haven't seen any new IQ data coming out. I'm looking forward to that. All right. Here's another one. OpenAI and Microsoft now back Anthropics Master Control Program. Who wants to take this on? Dave, do you want to give us a quick 101 on MCP? Well, so Anthropic is, so MCP is basically, you know how with chat GPT, you can do almost anything, you ask it to do something on your laptop and it says, well, I can't control your laptop, but here's some

code that would do it. Like, well, what do I do with that? Well, open the terminal session, paste it. I'm not doing that. So then they came out with operator. The problem with operator is it can delete everything on your laptop. And so Dario Amadei is actually the god of this. He is an incredible forward thinker in terms of how to get productivity while still having

safety and security. And so somewhere in there, he said, well, here, MCP, this is going to be an open standard, make it free to the world. But it's a way that the AI can access controls like your laptop, but also information that maybe other agents or it may be just stuff out on the internet that helps the AI serve your purpose. And it's a simple protocol that enables all this. And you know it's really pretty brilliant. I think it might be very similar to HTML, where HTML was not super complicated but it just flat out worked and we're still using it today.

And here we all have the internet, what a game changer. So MCP is very much like that kind of breakthrough in terms of having the AI empowered to help you without wrecking everything. But I love the fact that both OpenAI and Microsoft have backed that, you know, it's part of the sort of open ethos. Yeah.

All right, let's go to our next item here. Just a quick shout out if you go back to that, our story, Peter, is what I loved was this was based on OAuth, which was a protocol for sharing identity across websites. And something that people should look into is the internet identity workshop where all these folks working on identity systems at eBay yeah we'll get together and they go to kind of go what how do we handle cross site identity and etc and OAuth was a protocol that emerged out of that so this is literally the community practitioners getting together to create a protocol and what I'd love to see with this MCP is you're seeing the same thing

happen again is the practitioners in the space are getting together to create a protocol. And what I love to see with this MCP is you're seeing the same thing happen again, is the practitioners in the space are getting together to say, how do we do this in an appropriate and responsible way? And so I'm really, really happy to see that. Beautiful. Yeah, I'm not 100% convinced that the other guys adopting it is them being altruistic and saying, yeah, great invention.

I think it might be more of a, hey, we- Let's make sure we're close to this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah... Let's make sure we're close to this. Yeah, likely. Yeah, there's definitely that. It's the 40th anniversary of the IIW workshop, the Internet Identity Workshop, which is an unconference that's been going for 20 years, where all these things. It's amazing to see these folks getting together

and trying to figure out the block and tackle problems of interoperability at that level. So, nice. Just a shout out for them. All right. Speaking about the importance of safety, Google releases a paper on AGI safety by 2030. And you know, what could possibly go wrong? So I don't know if you had a chance to see the paper. I took a look at it, and it talks about a wide range of areas.

I was with Eric Schmidt down in Miami at the FII Miami summit. I had a conversation that was super critical, and he said, you know, the biggest concern isn't the upside. Of course, it's the downside. And the biggest concern isn't US versus China. There is concerns there. We can get to that if you want. But it's everybody against the dystopian user.

It's the person who uses AI to cause havoc. The number one example they use is a bioweapon that gets produced because, in fact, that technology has gotten easier and easier. And Eric said, we need something like a three-mile island disaster, something that makes global news but doesn't actually hurt anybody and scares everybody so that we adopt reasonable guidelines. That's funny. I interviewed Sam Altman at MIT at IAEA two years ago next week actually.

We talked about, well, he said proactively actually, the worst thing that could happen in AI is if we get into some kind of a hyper competitive all out race, you know, maybe an arms race with a foreign nation or something like that, where nobody feels like we have the ability to slow down and think, we have to move full speed because otherwise somebody else is going to bypass us. But that would be terrible. That'd be awful. But thankfully, that's not happening right now and We can take our time and think about it.

I actually think of that recording, actually, because like, oh, here we are. Two years later, we're out. That is the case right now. Everybody is all out. A billion dollars a day being spent in AI is the latest estimate again. And it's unconstrained. There's no velocity knob. It's all tilt to 11 and no on off switch

So I have a tangential question to this topic that I'd like to ask Dave I think from not about this paper because I think the approach taken by the paper is perfectly thoughtful and so on I struggle Hugely when how do you clearly define a GI and Dave? Do you have or have you seen a decent definition of AGI? Well, I mean, I've seen some actually really good definitions that are crystal clear, but then everyone disagrees whether that's AGI or not. I was like, well, Mr. Mahler, who cares? So, you know,

Dema Sassavis has a really, really good one where if you said take all the information up till about 1910 and then try and have an artificial Einstein discover relativity, given that data, if it can do that, then you know you're over the threshold. That's a great benchmark. Let's code it up. Then someone will say, well, that's not AG.

It doesn't have empathy. Like, OK, well, that's perfectly legit as a complaint. But it's really clear that the AGI was originally defined and everybody agreed it's the Turing test for like 50 years, right? Yeah, we blew past that. And so I think it's crazy to change the definition right at the finish line.

Oh my God. The Turing test by classically defined was passed a long time ago and no one noticed and no one cared. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're there. We're exactly there. Yeah, so from here forward, Richard Socher has really great thinking about the different types

of intelligence going forward, the 10 pathways that he's carved out. He promised us that book he's supposed to write. I don't know where that is, but it's really well thought out, you know, thought process. So from here forward, it's not about, like, do we really care whether it's equal to a human when it's doing superhuman protein folding, superhuman cell simulations? And do we really

want to make an AI that acts like a human anyway? Isn't that the disaster scenario? Can we just make it not self-aware but super capable in all these areas that help humanity? I mean, it's a very doable thing. Why don't we just do that and then everyone will be happy? Yeah. Okay, I'm with you. I'm going to move off the subject of AI for a moment and move to one of my favorite, which is flying cars and share a short video.

So the title here, and this is from the South China Morning Post, China Clears First Flying Taxis for Commercial Takeoff. So here we go. Let's take a look here. Those of you who have been with me for a while have probably seen a variation of this vehicle. It looks like Yihang from China, one of the very first to be produced.

I remember when Martine Rothblatt purchased like 100 of these vehicles for use in delivering lungs in the United States, and then she went and backed Beta in the US. So Saleem, you and I have chatted about flying cars a lot. I mean, for f' sakes, why can't we have these yesterday? It's so much easier to fly a car than to drive a car autonomously. We've got so many less constraints. I make a controversial comment that Kobe Bryant

would be alive today if we declared autonomous flying cars 20 years ago, 10 years ago. The technology is there. It's regulatory. It's infrastructure because you have to have dedicated gates at airports. You have to have special fueling mechanisms, all that stuff, licensing. You know, it takes a long time to unfortunately just for human beings to get all that stuff into place. This is where an authoritative government like China can get it done quickly because they can just look through it and say make it happen and etc. I think it's a game changer.

I can't wait for it to happen. I think we should have done it ages ago. Just airport commutes are just a disaster. How long were you in line to get to JFK? Oh, there was a 30 minute, it's like LAX on a bad day, right? It's like 30 minute delay at 1 AM in the morning. They were doing something and God knows it. My car was stuck forever coming to pick me up it's just doesn't make any sense that

we can't break through that stupid barrier at least for airport runs you know price is not an issue people would pay a fortune just well there's a dozen well-funded EV talls electric vehicle take off right if I was the Trump administration and you got that one thing done, you would get so much like visual publicity from people flying around. They're flying cars. The Jetsons have arrived. Yeah, sure. I mean, they're coming. You know, we've got Archer Aviation and Joby, both are probably the two biggest ones in the United States. And the plan right now, as far as I know, is when the Olympics are coming in a few years here in LA to have

them up and operational. The problem is, I mean, the old adage, the FAA is not happy until you're not happy. Right? Okay. So you know that better than anybody. And so we had, we have drone delivery as well, which is finally broken through. We have Wing, which is part of Alphabet and Zipline, and they're making millions of deliveries now where drones are flying on basically autonomously.

So funny. I don't know if you remember hearing the CEO of Wing talking about this, that these little drones flying, now they're operational in Dallas and they'll move to other cities, they have to get a part 135 license. A part 135 is, part 121 is United and JetBlue, it's large airplanes carrying passengers. 135 is smaller aircraft carrying passengers. And they have to abide by the Part 135 rules, which means your airplane has to have a seat belt on it

and needs to have all of the paperwork on it. And of course, you got these little drones. And we need to... Well, Peter, really? Yeah. Well, it's something we were talking about, I don't know, maybe six months ago. I don't know if you acted on it, but island real estate is dirt cheap, you know, either in the middle of a lake or off the coast. And that's because it's hard to get to.

But this is going to be like the best in the... You know, I also, you know, we were ahead of the curve talking about the land around nuclear power plants. And lo and behold, it's gone way up in value. But one of the smartest things you could do right now is start a little fund to buy island real estate in anticipation of the arrival. We have a fully developed business plan developed by one of my community members for exactly that.

We did a quick study. It turns out if you just circle Toronto Airport in Chicago Airport with a 200 mile radius, there's something like 10,000 islands and lakes. It's a ridiculous number. And you could go around the world where there's a decent rule of law and just snap these up. There's no way they're going down in value. And now you get this and then you drop onto them just put a drone landing pad on each one and just wait. Well, I was around the office on this this topic and everybody says you know what China can win some races that's okay this is one we don't need to win we can just import these things but like you said we need to get the regulatory

thing figured out very quickly but as long as we were competitive in the core AI race there's a good one to concede because they're so far ahead of us anyway. And just start importing them. Yeah, I would pay the tariffs for that. All right. So here's another race that's going on between the US and China, and it's the humanoid robot race. And of course, this year I had Brett Adcock, the CEO of Figure, on stage with me at the abundant summit and their recent release was that the figure two robot can now walk like a human. Let's take a look at this, at this video here. So this is figure one, which is walking like an old crippled man. And here's figure two coming along.

Um, so it still looks a little bit awkward to me. So it still looks a little bit awkward to me, doesn't it? I mean, but it's getting better. But I'll tell you what's amazing. Kudos to Brett and Figur. They have Figur 3 that's coming out shortly. They got Figur 4. They're iterating a new robot design like every 12 to 18 months. It's extraordinary

but you know, I used to be a super fan of Of the Atlas robot back when it was being powered by hydraulics and now it's gone electric and It's amazing. So let's take a look at the Atlas robot this video Really freaks me out. Check this out. Look at Atlas running like that, right? And I mean it's much more human crawling. I mean very human-like maneuvers, right? Let's see what it does next. So cool. Some tumbling. I mean, imagine this in the Olympics,

in gymnastics Olympics. It's a little unfair. I mean, you know might be from these, right? Headstands. Oh, wow. Okay, now we're doing, now we're gonna, that's what we're showing off. I mean, but check it out, cartwheels. I mean, honestly, it looks like, but this, look at the beginning here again, it's running. Check this out, this running gate. I mean, amazing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know my beef, why the hell only two legs? Yeah, because it would be a horse. You could have four, you could have six. And it would be a second.

I get it sent to me. Why not a hundred? So much more flexibility. I think we spend too much time trying to make it look human. Salim, Salim, okay. Yes, I'll back off. Forget this argument. You've made it in the last three conversations we've had. Putting it aside, Atlas running was super human-like. Imagine that running after you down the street. I'll go back to the thing that does blow my mind about this is once you teach one of these a skill, all million other humanoid robots have that exact same capability. And that about this is once you have the supply chain of components and also the software, you can make any form factor in no time after that. So why start with a humanoid, not with, you know, like a spider or something? Well, if you start with something

creepy, then you just turned off a whole generation. You start with the video we just looked at, you've inspired a generation and that's more important at this moment. That's what I think they recognize. And you know, Brad and Elon. That's the kind of wisdom that cuts through all of the crap we talk about sometimes. Dave, thank you for that. That's a great comment. Yeah, I'm supposed to throw a compliment to me.

All right. Here's a couple. I do appreciate it. A couple of final stories here. Feeling the future, new wearable tech simulates realistic touch. I want to say new wearable tech stimulates realistic touch. So this is fruit of the loom is coming out with this new technology.

Well, that'll sell. Yeah, so breakthrough in haptic tech stimulates pressure, twisting, stretching under full motion actuators. So, I mean, listen, this is the, we saw this in Ready Player One. This is reality following science fiction, this is the emergence or the you know are diving into the virtual world. Comments? The porn industry is gonna have a field day with this one obviously. There's historically always been breakthrough innovators in some of this. I think there's gonna be you know this is where that whole example of putting away kitchen dishes and then you simulating, this becomes really interesting for the avatar use case. If you're, if you can do haptic sensing in the robots on Mars and you're on Earth or you're off planet, it becomes some

incredible things you could do there. So lots of applications. Yeah, I don't know about, I mean, I totally agree conceptually, but then when we did the Avatar X Prize, the latency kills you. You know, when you start talking about something on the moon or something on Mars, I mean, Mars, you're talking about minutes, you know, what just happened? Dave, we talked about this at the abundance summit, quantum Communications has made instantaneous comms possible. So it's I mean that that blew me away So all of a sudden, you know distance doesn't matter to have instantaneous communication capability. So who knows? Yeah, but if that works and I've read about it and definitely Einstein might you might agree might not agree But you know a quantum entanglement is pretty compelling, so I guess I don't know. I'm not that deep into physics to know if it's

real or not. If we have quantum entanglement, we'd do much more interesting things than haptic pressure testing. That's a good point. But no, if the instantaneous communication from here to Mars and eliminate the 10-minute latency, if that actually works, then we're either immediately going to discover 10,000 other civilizations in the galaxy or we're going to know that they don't exist. So that's pretty interesting if that's real. We'll solve the Fermi paradox. Amazing.

To wrap up with one Bitcoin story, Trump family enters Bitcoin mining with New Venture American Bitcoin. You know, at the same time as we're recording this, there's been sort of a a meltdown of all US stocks and Bitcoin dropped a good 10 percent. What happened to the idea that Bitcoin was an uncorrelated storage of wealth? Yeah. It's still not uncorrelated. Yeah, it's still super correlated. Well, I mean, everything, the ETF, everyone moving to indexes, which are stupid, and I

don't mean that they're literally stupid. They have no thought behind The ETF position of the world can't go much further without it being like everything will move together because people are pulling money in and putting, you know, pulling money out of ETFs and they're just selling indiscriminately. And what you saw like, you know, halfway through the day, Intel is way down. And then suddenly somebody realizes, oh wait, Intel's got great news today. It's immune from this. And it's like the one thing green on the ticker. So it's funny how they created this huge ARB opportunity in the middle of the day. And of course, all the quant funds are making 40% returns like clockwork. How does that

work? Well, it's just picking up on that ETF inefficiency. So anyway, that's a bit of an aside, kind of geeky. I think what's going on here though is data centers and chip access are an absolutely dominant part of economic success going forward. And what do you know, Bitcoin mining is a great way to make money on idle data center power supplies. It's hugely correlated with inference time compute and training compute build outs. And so and so of course the trumps are going to be in the middle of those conversations and recognize the opportunity. Nice agreed. All right Dave I added this story for you CoreWeave shares rip nearly 42 percent higher rising above IPO price so tell me about CoreWeave.

So CoreWeave is a heavily levered kind of a bellwether of where AI IPO's are going to go. But it's, you know, it's a tough case because it's got so much debt. And so what's amazing to me is that, you know, they wanted to price at 48. They were at a little shaky demand. So they came out at 40, which is still great. It traded down and everyone got scared to death for one day, and then it skyrocketed. And now even with today's meltdown, it's way up from its IPO price. And that is, to me, very much the Yahoo moment. Remember when the internet was starting to take off and Yahoo went public and that just blew open the markets and then they stayed open for, you know, a good solid five, six years after that. This to me, we could look back and say,

oh, okay, this was the bellwether that said the markets are back open. You know, there's only been one, well, it says right there on the bullet, you know, 2021 is the last time we had anything like this. That's a long time ago. And so I'm hoping, and I really feel like this, this is going to crack open not only the IPO markets, but also the M&A markets for all these, for all these AI companies. And that's what we desperately need. You know, the alternative is that that we lose the race in AI, but this has to happen for the

machinery to keep running. It's great. Suleem, thoughts? Super thrilled to see it also because the markets need to open up and I think that was one of the core promises of the Trump administration is to open up both M&A and the IPO markets and it's great to see the sentiment behind because as Dave said the next few will have as much excitement around them by definition and it'll be kind of amazing. It might crack open the whole paradigm. Yeah. So Dave, listen, I loved

having you on this episode. Oh likewise. It's like, you know. I've been looking forward to it all day. Yeah, it's great. So everybody listen, I know you love Saleem more than me. I got it. You know, he's just he's just better looking, more intelligent, all of that. Let me know what you thought of having Dave on WTF. You know, I love bringing the most intelligent people I know into this conversation to sort of give an understanding of what's happened in the past week. And just as the speed of this accelerates, and it's accelerating rapidly. I love having more intelligent people than myself to analyze the news, give opinions, set me

straight. So... Well, also the insider's view because Dave, you've got so much direct knowledge of all these startups and who's doing what in the space is fantastic. Well, I don't know if you remember Peter, but all the conversations we've had, you know, with Mike Saylor and Sanju Bansal and like just walking around the streets of Cambridge this is just like the virtual version of it it's been the most fun I've had in weeks and just absolutely overjoyed that you that you had me on. I look forward to having you back yeah for sure. All right guys have a uh get some sleepim. I know you've been like traveling the globe. And Dave, thanks for joining us, buddy.

See you guys next time. If you enjoyed this episode, I'm gonna be releasing all of the talks, all the keynotes from the Abundance Summit exclusively on exponentialmastery.com. You can get on-demand access there. Go to exponentialmastery.com.