Moonshots with Peter Diamandis - Tony Robbins on Overcoming Job Loss, Purposelessness & The Coming AI Disruption | 222

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

Get access to metatrends 10+ years before anyone else Tony Robbins is a world-renowned American motivational speaker, life coach, author, and entrepreneur. Join Tony’s free summit Salim Ismail is the founder of OpenExO Dave Blundin is the founder & GP of Link Ventures Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross is a computer scientist and founder of Reified – My companies: Apply to Dave's and my new fund:https://qr.diamandis.com/linkventureslanding      Go to Blitzy to book a free demo and start building today: https://qr.diamandis.com/blitzy   _ Grab dinner with MOONSHOT listeners: https://moonshots.dnnr.io/ Connect with Tony X Instagram Website Connect with Peter: X Instagram Connect with Dave: X LinkedIn Connect with Salim: X Join Salim's Workshop to build your ExO  Connect with Alex Website LinkedIn X Email Listen to MOONSHOTS: Apple YouTube – *Recorded on January 7th, 2026 *The views expressed by me and all guests are personal opinions and do not constitute Financial, Medical, or Legal advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People ask me all the time, how do you provide certainty for people when the external world no longer offers certainty? There is no external certainty. So when those jobs are disrupted, what will people hang on to? The answer is... One of the most famous people on the planet, Tony Robbins. The great Tony Robbins is here, my man. There's nothing that people want that they can't make happen. If they really want a heart and soul, that they want to do something about it.

This kind of change hitting society isn't just a threat about unemployment. It's a threat about a nervous system shock. AI is the call. New technology is the call for us to become more. Again, to move from survival to spirit, to move from settling to something greater. AI is going to create this rate of change that is just beyond belief. And it doesn't correlate with happiness necessarily. It needs to be turned into happiness. Tony, you've been coaching millions of people over decades, right? After kind of looking back over that time, are you more optimistic about the world or less? Here's what I think about optimism. I think. Everybody, welcome to Moonshots. I'm here today with a dear friend, the world's number one life and business coach, Tony Robbins. He's coached more than 100 million people across 195 countries beyond his coaching.

He's the owner of in more than 114 companies with $12 billion in business. He is an investor in private equity across 80 private equity companies with $11 billion AUM. He's advised presidents, Fortune 500 CEOs, global, leaders on leadership and human potential. Personally, Tony is one of my best friends. We've co-authored a number one, your time-selling book. We've co-founded two companies, Fountain Life and Lifeforce. And in my opinion, he is one of the greatest humanitarians on the planet alive today. Tony, welcome, pal. Thanks, buddy. It's great to be with you. Yeah, for sure. You know, I remember a decade ago, we started a conversation, and we started too early, but a conversation about what

what we saw as the age of coming technological socialism. Yes. Where technology, not the government, but technology would start to take care of individuals and the implications that that might have on our psychology, on our sense of safety, on how we motivate ourselves. And as you know, I did a podcast recently with Elon.

And during that conversation, he said a few things that I wanted, the first person wanted to speak to about this was you. you know he said literally that he expects in the next three to five years that a i and robotics would fundamentally displace all human labor and i think the time frame that folks have been talking about in the media in government across the board has been more of a 20 year adaptation cycle of how long that would take and and humans are amazingly adaptable but i don't think at that speed i think you know, this kind of change hitting society isn't just a threat about unemployment. It's, it's a threat about a nervous system shock. Yeah. So let's start there. How do you, you know,

how do you respond to that? What are your concerns? Well, when the environment changes faster than our ability to adapt, people panic. When people panic, they have a variety of emotional reactions, including anger and rage and sometimes violence. And if you look at the history of change, they can go back all the way to Luddites, you know, if you remember studying your history in the 1800s in England, and they created these machines that displaced about 70% of the jobs. And what do people do?

They rioted. You know, you had thousands of people. You had them attacking with hammers to destroy these machines. You had them blowing up facilities and, you know, factories. You had factory people, owners being shot and being threatened to be killed. You had factory owners putting people out there shooting people. The government in England passed a law in the first year of this kind of five-year cycle, basically, saying that if you destroyed a machine, it was capital punishment.

They hung 24 people publicly to try to stop this. They put out 12,000 people to fight them. It's doing the same with the use from the Topolian Wars. So there's no guarantee of this being a smooth transition. Now, I'm not a reactionary person. And when you hear three to five years, it gets your attention. and Elon's one of the smartest people alive and people can argue about the timeline. But Ray Kurzweil, a mutual friend of both of ours, you know, he's been talking about, you know, 20-29 for probably 20 years, and he's been the most accurate forecaster I know.

Even if you go to, you know, Hinton, who's, you know, the founder of AI himself, he has a longer version. He goes 20-30, 20-40. So I'd say three to 10 years, is my guess. But, you know, I don't think all business will be gone or changed at that time period. But the question really is, you know, how do you provide certainty for people, right? And people ask me all the time, how do you provide certainty for people when the external world no longer offers certainty? And I would argue that you don't have to deal with it at all because it's already true. What I mean is there is no external certainty.

You know, external certainty is a total illusion. You have rented certainty because you have a certain business or you have a certain category of a certain income. You have certain relationships. But you know, a COVID, for example, instantly changed all of that overnight for people. You walk across street and get hit by a car and you know, you can't walk for six months or forever. Things like this are always been a part of our lives. So I think it's really dispelling the illusion of certainty and finding people in the ability to get that internal certainty. Look, neuroscience is teaching us that same as AI, our brains are predictive machines.

It's constantly trying to predict what's going to happen and close the gap between what it predicts and what reality is. And when it doesn't match up, that's when that craziness, that anger, that fear shows. up. So it's going to show up on a large scale. And our job, I think, as leaders, is to anticipate that. To look at history, because it's not just the Luddite, you can say 15 years later, that happened with a thrashers, another machine that was used, you know, to get rid of wheat. And they had the same reaction 15 years later. In the 1930s, 30, 31, 32, communism came and people had to be put down. Governments in the past have overreacted to this to try to stop it. It's been a very difficult stage. So if we're going to make the transition,

I think we have to anticipate what's coming. And I remember I talked to President Obama about this 10 years ago. And right at the end of his office and I was saying, what are you going to do? Because I give the example. I said, you know, you inherited an economy where, you know, 8 million jobs disappeared right in 2008. And the world economy was smashed up. Well, I said, look at this. These self-driving cars, they're going to be around at least sometime in the next 10 to 15 years.

And they're going to displace truck drivers. and they're going to displace anybody who's driving an Uber? Who's going to hire a truck driver that you have, can work eight hours a day maximum? They cost a lot of money for their health insurance. It's always going up. They complain when you're going to have a truck that drives 24 hours a day, probably cheaper insurance, doesn't make the mistakes,

don't have to pay the health care, and you can depreciate the asset. So I said, if you just take that category alone, those truck drivers, Uber drivers, taxi drivers, that's 8 million jobs. And I said, so what are you guys doing, you know, at the governmental level, What did you say?

To retool people. I'm never going to say. He goes, Tony, it's not going to happen that fast. And I said, well, with all due respect, Mr. President, if you look at history, we could say 150 years ago, 80% of us were farmers. Now, it's 3% we feed the world. No one thought of a new job called being a webmaster or these days, you'd do something different like AI master, whatever the case may be.

Those jobs weren't even thought of. So I know there'll be new jobs, but that was a 150-year shift. The speed of this is the chance. challenge. And he said, Tony, all the people we're talking to, it's just not going to happen that fast. And I'm thinking about it just the other day because it's just 10 years ago. And you and I both know, between Waymo and obviously Elon, it's happening in cities all across the world. It's not the standard yet, but will it be sometime soon? The answer is yes. So when those jobs are disrupted, what will people hang on to? The answer is we have to give them two things. First, help them develop an identity as a creator. Here's what I mean by that. Most people that you talk to, in daily life are stressed. It is the number, I'm so stressed. There's so much, I don't, dude, I'm so stressed about, so stressed about that. So much about mental health these days. Are you really going to tell me that life is more stressful today than when, you know, you had a fight for your food with a tiger? I mean, it's absurd. Or during the middle ages where, you know, you might

catch something where, you know, entire community went down. But we think it's more stressful because we're managers today. We try to manage so much. We were not made to manage our circumstances. We're made to create. When you're managing circumstances, you don't feel any sense of agency. You don't feel like you're in charge. And most human stress comes from the fact that you feel events are controlling you versus your controlling events. So think about it.

Something created us. You can call it God. You call it the universe. You can call it whatever you want to call it. But we were created by something. And we're given the ability to create. When you become a creator of life on your terms, it doesn't matter what changes in the outside world.

Now, there's one other piece. You might say practically. Like, what skills would somebody need to be able to do well? Because I've been thinking, and I've got, just like you, I've got kids. I've got five kids and five grandkids now. I have a, you know, 52-year-old daughter. And thanks to COVID, I have a four-year-old daughter. It was good to me.

But I think about my grandkids and my younger kids, and I say, man, you know, 80%, 50%, 30%, you know, depending which studies you read of traditional jobs are going to disappear. Even though I'm saying all of them, but no matter how to slice it, the world's going to change radically. How do I arm them, right? Not just with money or resources. I don't arm them to have self-esteem to know they can play the game. And the answer is developing an identity that says, I'm the kind of person that always finds the way.

I'm the person that can find meaning anything and empowering meaning. I know how to use my body to produce certainty and not try to get it from the outside world, which is an illusion. I have an identity on the person that makes it happen. If you think about, like, Lance Armstrong's identity of like, I'm the guy that always finds the way to victory. Well, we've told he had cancer in his lungs, in his brain, and in his testicles, most people would say, I'm out. He's like, I'm going to find the answer you did.

Now, the same belief system of identity made him use drugs to compete that kind of hurt his career in his identity in some way. But identity is what controls it. Then there's the skill, and I'll finish with this. There's three skills. I teach every one of my kids, anybody I'm in business with, anybody in relationship with, to continuously master. If you master these three skills, it doesn't matter what happens with AI. It doesn't matter. You'll still be a part of what wins because in the end, you're not going to replace by AI.

You're going to be replaced by someone else to use AI. And here's the bottom line. Pattern one, the skill number one is pattern recognition. You're a genius at this. You and I've been friends for decades on not blowing smoke. You and I both are damn good at recognizing patterns early on and seeing what they mean. Now, when you recognize a pattern, it eliminates fear. People are fearful because something looks like this has never.

happened before. There's nothing like this. There's always something like this. You know, history is not the same, but it rhymes, you know, the phrase we hear so often. So it's like, once you recognize the pattern in yourself emotionally or physically, or the pattern financially or the pattern of cycles of markets, you're no longer fearful. But the second skill is pattern utilization. Now think about it. What changed humanity from living in fear and running from one place another, you know, being hunter-gatherers trying to hopefully get our food to staying in one place and being able to build a family, a community, a city, a nation, one pattern recognition that we learned to use, and that is the seasons. Until we understood

the seasons, you could do the right thing at the wrong time and you had nothing. Planting in the winter, now my hard, hard to work doesn't work. So once we learn that, wow, we can plant here, we protect during the hot summer, we reap and keep some of it for the winter, that's how we came to be able to be where we are. Well, once you recognize financial, patterns, business patterns, patterns of technology, you're not fearful. Once you start to use those patterns, you become powerful. You now start to be able to invest better. You'll be able to build a business. You'll be able to have a more mature relationship and one that's more passionate, more alive, and more loving. But the third target that I all my kids, I want them to move towards and constantly

reinforcing is pattern creation. So think of this way, and I'll finish with this. If you're learning to play music, the piano, usually someone else before you, is a lot of you, come up with a pattern that's delightful or enhancing, whatever you want to call it, beautiful, you learn their pattern, and you learn a lot of their patterns. And you don't just recognize it, you use it, you can produce the result that's amazing, but as time goes by, suddenly there'll be a point where you've played enough of other people's patterns that you come through. And now you become a creator of patterns.

And if you do that in business or in sports, you become the goat of that industry. You become the greatest of all time because you're bringing something to table that's never been there before. So the answer, long answer, but I think it needs context, is the need for certainty is in human beings. But that need can be met many different ways. And in order to have them succeed, they need to have a different identity. They have to understand that this idea of certainty, just things being the same way, has never really been there. If you look at it in reality. But I can put internal certainty.

I can find the meaning. I can develop the identity of the person that finds the way. I can build the identity of being a creator. And if I study these three skill sets, I'll always be able to learn. And as I learn, I'll be able to master anything life brings me, including AI, technology, robotics, nanotechnology, etc. Hey, everybody, you may not know this, but I've got an incredible research team. And every week, myself, my research team, study the metatrends that are impacting the world.

Topics like computation, sensors, networks, AI, robotics, 3D printing, synthetic biology. And these metatrend reports I put out once a week, enable you to see the future 10 years ahead of anybody else. If you'd like to get access to the Metatrends newsletter every week, go to DMAANDIS.com slash Metatrends. That's DMAANDIS.com slash Metatrends. I appreciate this. And I agree with you, of course.

The challenge is how many people have it within themselves to actually, you know, go down that road. One of the challenges is we're living in a world where there have been a number of social contracts that have become, you know, sort of codified in all of our lives, you know, work hard in school, go to good college, get a degree, get a great job, and all of a sudden that gets just disrupted. And people find themselves where their identity for all time has been their job.

I mean, first off, the idea of work is a rather recent invention. You know, we never used to work 10,000, 20,000 years ago. We survived. I love Sad Guru has a great quote about this. I remember he said, technology is the means by we. which we take a vacation from survival. I love that. That's great.

And so the question now is when your self-worth has been tied to your job, and all of a sudden either it's taken away or it's minimized, and then we also have, I think one of the biggest concerns I have, and Elon echoed this, is we're going to have a large population of individuals not getting jobs. I mean, they're in the process of the social contract. I've, you know, worked hard. I got to a college. And we're seeing this at MIT, at Northeastern, at universities around. I, you know, with great degrees, I cannot get a job. And retooling themselves to go and become a creator. And I, you know, one of the things we've talked on the Moonshots podcast a lot

is that the real future career, the real future opportunity is being an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurship is the future for everybody at some shape and call it a creator, call it whatever you like. So how do people make that shift when they're in the midst of hurting? And we're not there yet. You know, another thing that Elon said that I want to just say is, you know, we're going to head towards universal high income where, you know, robots and AI enable us to have anything we want. And at the same time with social unrest.

So how do you think about social unrest coming? Is it avoidable? Can we immunize ourselves? Do you think government's going to take the actions required? Yeah, those are great questions. And I'm certainly not the expert to answer them. I can only give me my two cents in my opinion. But I've heard a lot of people say this before.

Like, you know, they say for 4,000 years, our identity's been tied to work. What happens we don't have to work anymore? And it's just not true for 4,000. years before the agrarian transformation of our society, as you said, we're into survival, but really what we were tied to was a tribe. We were tied to connection and contribution. Those are two human needs that have never gone away and are not going to go away if there's no, quote, work. Now, I don't know if I buy there'll be no work for human beings. Personally,

I could be dead wrong, but I just, I don't buy that necessary future, certainly not in the next three, five years of you describing. But I think, you know, to think about economic utility wasn't it. You had your sense of significance. Let's talk about something for two seconds, because you know this, but share it with your audience. You know, I work with people all over the earth. One of the things that I uncovered about 20 years ago that just really changed my work where I could help people in a radically different way is I noticed, you know, I've worked in, you know, 139 countries. I've got clients in 193 countries. But I've gone to those countries and worked. And every country has its own values and rule systems, obviously. Generally, for example,

if you go to the East, saving face is very, very important, as you well know. And there's cultures like the United States where the individual is more value. There's cultures where it's more about the group. But the one thing I noticed that every single culture was the same problems occurred, even though the culture was different. And that made me dig to see what drives people underneath it all? What are the drives that aren't just motivational? What are the drives that are built in to all human beings?

And I finally discovered what I consider to be the six human needs that drive every In other words, whatever people do, they have a reason. If somebody says they're going to commit suicide, they've got a reason. If someone's willing to run in a building and save someone and they might lose their life to do it, they got a reason. If somebody just yells you, they got a reason. They might not know what it is consciously. But there's a million reasons.

There's six needs that drive those reasons or those stories, right? Someone's going to kill themselves. Obviously, they have to have a belief that dying is less painful than living, as an example. So those six needs come down to these real fast because they think. And let's actually, let's take these. one at a time because AI impacts all of them. They do. It does. And let's just look at what they are.

So the first basic human need is certainty. The need to be able to be comfortable to avoid pain. Now, this need for certainty is in every human being. It's just the differences in human beings in these six needs are that some people value certainty, number one, and some will value, let's say, uncertainty, another need, much higher. Where you value these six needs is why we make different decisions. And the second thing is, how do you get certainty? Some people get certainty by lowering their expectations.

Some people get certainty by trusting in God and saying there's a higher purpose, I'm going to be guided. Some people get certainty by saying, you know, I've been through hell before. I've always find the answer. I'll find the answer here. Some people get certainty by working out and feeling that certainty in their body. So we all have different rules, a different map about how to meet that need. So the two differences is what do you value towards the top two? That's what drives you.

And what are your rules about to meet them? So having said that, you can get certainty by, eating a lot of food. You're all stressed out, eat a lot of food, and your stomach fills up and you start to breathe better, right, because you're full. Or you smoke a cigarette. Take a breath in and blow it out nice and slow, and you feel better. You're killing yourself, but you feel comfortable while you're doing it, right? It's just provide certainty. So you can find certainty in positive ways, neutral ways, or negative ways. But if you were certain every moment of your life, you know what's going to happen, when it's going to happen, what someone's going to do, what they're going to say.

In the beginning, that would feel great. But after why, you'd be bored out of your mind, which is why the universe, God, whatever you want to call, gave us a second need, which is uncertainty. We have a need for uncertainty. We have a need for surprise. In fact, when I do with large audiences, I'll say to a stadium, how many love surprise and 15,000 people all raise their hand? And I go bullshit. I said, you like the surprises you want, right? The surprises you don't want, you call problems. But we need those. It triggers a different response in us. We need that a need for variety. Now, if there's too much variety, If there's too much certainty, they're bored out of their mind.

So is the goal to be the lukewarm middle? No, the goal is you can meet multiple, through multiple beliefs or actions or emotions. You can meet multiple needs. If someone's ever rented a movie that they've already seen, I'll ask people that. Most people say they have, and I say, get a life, right? And I said, but I've done it too. Why would you rent a movie you've already seen? Because you're certain it's good and you're hoping it's been long enough,

you've forgotten enough, he still gives you variety to watch it again, right? And so you can meet multiple needs. You can meet multiple needs. The third need is the need for significance, the need to feel unique, to feel special, to feel important. This is one of the most important human needs. They're all important. Some people value significance number one.

Some people value certainty number one, so they live a very different life, right? If you're valuing certainty number one, you're going to be holding back a little bit back here. If it's uncertainty, you're going to be charging forward, right? The direction of your life is driven by which of these needs you value at the top. means to feel needed, to feel important, to feel significant, right? You can get significance by working harder than anybody else, being more generous. You can get significance by beating up on somebody, right? You know, verbally tearing somebody down. You have the illusion if they go down,

you go up, right? There's so many ways to do it that are positive and negative. The reason we have violence is if somebody doesn't feel significant and you're in that part of town where maybe they're not being, feel like they're part of our society or taking, care of or have the same options, somebody puts a gun at your head. Well, how certain are they you're going to respond? Zero to 10. 10. How much variety is every time it's different? And thirdly, you're the most significant thing in their life. I bring this up because this is a critical principle. I know I'm teaching a lot real quick, but you'll see why it's important in understanding how technology and AI affects us and the changes we're talking about. If you are in a position that you meet at least

three of your needs to a belief or three of your needs by an emotional pattern or three of your needs by an action, you'll become addicted to that belief, that emotion, or that action. Whether it's a positive thing or a negative addiction, you'll be addicted to it. And by the way, unfortunately, violence has always been with us and will be unless there's a consciousness change because it's one of the fastest ways to feel significant and certain and have variety. It also meets the fourth need, unfortunately, which is connection and love, not the love part, with the connection part. Everyone needs connection of love, right?

As human beings, if you're born, you know, as a doctor in your background, I know a rocket science doctor, but you also know as a medical doctor, that have children not physically held as babies. If they're not having that kinesthetic touch, they get failure to thrive syndrome. Literally, they can die from the lack of that. So we need that connection. Now, most people had love and maybe it disappeared or it ended, and so they settled for the crumbs of connection,

but they still want that. So you can get connection through, you know, having problems and sharing your problems with someone else. You're going to have that connection by, you know, prayer. You're going to have a connection going for a run and feeling connected to God or the universe. You know, you can feel that connection by buying a dog because, you know, cats leave with dogs.

You leave for two minutes. It's like you've been gone for six months. They're so happy to see you, right? So there's many ways, right, to get that sense of connection. By the way, if you've ever seen two people fight over whose problem's bigger? I have this problem. I have this problem. They're not fighting over the problems.

They're fighting over who's got a more significant problem. Sure. It's more significant, right? It's like when you're in a night battle over who's been traveling too much. That's exactly right. So the first four needs are the needs of the personality. Everyone needs certainty. And if you have to lie to yourself, you'll do it.

If you have to work 20 hours a day, you'll do it. People find a way to get certainty. Now, zero to 10, they might give 5, 6, 7, I don't know. And they might get in a way that's temporary. If you take a bunch of sugar, you're going to get a nice sugar high, but it's going to drop. It doesn't last. Most people meet their needs in a way that is temporary, right? But certainty, uncertainty, those two, you can see how they feel like contrastive. Significance, I want to be the one, but then I want to be connected. So you can see the kind of conflicts that most people

find in these first four. But the ultimate needs are spiritual needs, not religious, but spiritual. And that is, everything in life has to grow. Everything grows where it dies. That's not my loss. It's a lot of the universe. And everything in the universe, if it does, it does, it. doesn't contribute, it's eventually eliminated, right? So we have to contribute, we have to give something. When we contribute, have something to give. And that's when you have a spiritual high. That's when people feel fulfilled as opposed to survival. So I say this because to talk about someone losing their job or their sense of identity or their self-worth because they're not doing it through their work anymore, or let's assume that there's no need for work. Let's take this

utopian view. I would be concerned about that if I thought the only way we could meet our needs for significance and certainty would be through work. But look, we've already lived a post-work world to some extent if you go back in our history as humans, right? When you were not evaluated by your economic utility, you'd quote your job, we always ask, what do you do in America, for example? But that's not what's happening then.

You were evaluated by, let's say, your courage and war, by your creativity, by your wisdom, right, by the things that you could share, your art or your music, or your ability to tell stories. So there are many ways to meet our nation. needs. Right now, we have been driven to think of it only at one predictive way for the last couple hundred years, but we've done it before and we can do it again. But the answer to your question is, will we as a society do that quick enough? Will everybody make that happen

quick enough? I'm afraid to say the answer is no, in my opinion, just because right now you have the carrot and the stick that's driving this technology, especially AI and nanotechnology right behind it and everything else. The carrot is, I can make trillions of dollars, and the stick is if we don't do this, China could dominate the world. So as a result of that, almost no money spent on safety, and there's almost no thinking about what's doing the jobs. You know right now, we're already seeing high school students are having greater in job employment than college students for the first time.

So that never happened before in modern history. And that's happening because people are leaving and those middle jobs have disappeared. Those first state jobs have already disappeared. Are we doing anything about it? The answer right now is no. So is it concerning to me? Yes. My biggest concern is if you don't have any work, how do you find meaning?

I know you can do it. There's many ways to do it. But we have to educate people and we've got to retool them. And just like talking to President Obama, there's very few people actually looking at how to retool our society. And they say, well, they become programs. You know, they told people go study code. And now, of course, as you know, with vibe code, I was just talking to, I think a mutual friend of ours. I think, you know, Robert Smith over at Vista.

Yes. $125 billion private equity firm. I remember five years I talked to him. I said, what's the chokehold on your business? It's getting more people that can write code, right? More software engineers. Right now, they're eliminating them like crazy, right? They only need a few, some really smart ones.

So again, you don't lose your job to AI. You lose your job to someone else use AI better than you do. So I think the answer to your question is there is a way to meet all of our needs. It's going to be a call. And I think what AI is doing, is it's a spiritual call. I know that's my view of it. We're going from survival values to spiritual values.

From external focus to more internal focus that we're able to share and make the world better, that's the upside of this. But the transition time is going to be painful. And if you look at history, most of those transitions are a five-year period, roughly. If you look at every type of major disruption that's happened with technology in the past. I hope it's not like that. I hope we can conversations like this like we're having could be stimulative. and other people have them at a high level,

and the people like you and I can try to create as much influence with those who have influence to make that shift. But there's no guarantee on it, and I think we have to be realistic to say, there's probably going to be some disruption. Look, how many billionaires that you and I both know that they're preppers right now? Yes.

I know of a dozen of them that got together. I got invited this meeting. I didn't go, but I got to hear the details of it. And it's just blowing my mind. I mean, we have mutual friends that are building places underground and giant ranches and hiring giant. time. Food stuff.

It's crazy. So prepping for the future, that's not the answer. The way to prep for the future is prep society by giving the ability to have a different psychology about change and figuring out the ways in which we're going to create that transport. Tony, I love you for it. The tools that are talking about like taxing robots and so forth might be a part of that. I love you for this. And by the way, anybody who's not gone to Tony's date with destiny, which I've gone to twice,

it's an extraordinary experience. And I commend it to everybody. And you'll explore these six human needs and understand which of them drive you. And, you know, I'm not questioning whether this transformation can occur. I'm concerned that who in society or what institution or what organizations or what leaders are going to lead this. Because I don't see anybody in government addressing this. I see a little bit coming out of the hyperscalers, which are, in fact, going to be the wealthiest, most powerful institutions on the planet, right? This magnificent seven right now has got, you know,

a revenue equivalent to half the GDP of the United States and more than 99% of the planet. So who's going to take the lead? And, you know, what type of programs need to be in place to change this conversation at the middle school and high school level, right? Because right now, you know, with your young daughter and your older children, it was always, okay, study hard, this is important, need to contribute to society, you need to learn, you need to do your math tables. All of these things are effectively feigning away and how you contribute, you know, ultimately the conversation will talk about this in a few minutes, you know, how to use technology to upskill your purpose in life, you know, to go for your moonshots. You know, the analogy I like to use is, you

you know, how do you create a Star Trek future versus a Wally or a Mad Max future? Yeah. Well, I think, again, you know, these are deep questions, but I think my hope is the Elons of the world that, you know, we've got a chance to be able to chat with and you're a good friends with and some of our friends at Google and some of those very individuals you're talking about. I think the gentleman at Anthropic has even more association to some of this. Yeah. To say, look, we have to do two things. We've got to retool people for this, but we've got to retool the psychology.

And as you know, we did that study at Stanford on, you know, in the middle of COVID, they came to me and said, you've gotten these unbelievable results for two of their professors who came to a date with Destiny and six-day program. And what do we do? We reorganized. They reorganized. I didn't tell them how. Their value system. Well, when you change your value system, you change what you notice, what you appreciate. If your number one value in life is security and the bottom of your list is adventure, when you walk in that seminar room, you know where all the exits are. If you're number one value is adventure, you don't even know. which room, what door you came in, you don't care, right? You literally, your predictive process, just like AI, literally is rewired in that process. So we need to teach people how to rewire themselves, and we've proven it. The Stanford study, you know, I asked them in advance. You said they want to do it on depression. And I said, you know, tell me what the meta study show about current treatments for depression. And it blew my mind, 60% of the people that go in for therapy or drugs or the combination thereof make zero improvement on the depression. 60%. That's the meta. That's the studies. Forty percent improve, but on average they improve half as much, or 50 percent less

depressed. Now, some get well, but very few. Most stay on these drugs. And I said, man, you should be able to get that result, you know, with a placebo. And I said, so let's, what's the best study you've ever done? It was done at Johns Hopkins, about eight years ago now. For a month, they gave people depressed psilocybin, magic mushrooms, and cognitive therapy for a month. I said, that much biochemical change, you must have got a change. They said it's the most successful in history. They got 56% of the people six weeks later had no symptoms, which is pretty unbelievable compared to anything else.

I said, I know this sounds like, you know, I'm exaggerating or, you know, there's ego involved, I'm not. We've just done this enough. I know the rewiring process. We will trounce those numbers. So you set it up the same way. And when they did this study, after six weeks, 93% of the people had no symptoms whatsoever.

and the 7% had improved, but more importantly, 17% of the people in the study came in with suicidal ideation. When they left, none did. This is just reorganizing, retooling, right? The best part was a year later with no interaction from me. Their negative emotions dropped 72% overall, positive emotions up 51%. Now, why am I telling you that? If you have the best Ferrari in the world, let's call AI your Ferrari, right? It can empower you to do all amazing things at speed and amazing.

But you've got to think about what the new environment is you're driving that Ferrari in. If you're going to the, you know, Baja race, Baja 1000, and you try to drive that beautiful Ferrari, it's not going to go nowhere. If you go to the Dakar race, you know, 9,300 miles in the Sahara Desert, and you don't retool, you're going to die out there. And so I think we've got to retool the thinking process as the emotions, and we've proven we can do it. So I think with people, these types of things now can be done at scale, as you know. I'm doing my seminar, you know, at the end of this month, I do one once a year for free,

for people all of the world. I've done it since COVID, right? And so we call it the time-to-rise summit. It's time to take your life from the next level. We offered it for free. We had 1.3 million people last year joined us from every country on the face of the earth. And every night, I didn't do it for two hours. I did it literally for three days, three and a half hours a day.

And you see these huge transformations that before I can only do in an audience of 15,000 people in a stadium. All that came, by the way, because when they shut down during COVID, this big problem, I had to adapt because I wanted to help people. It wasn't, you know, I got 114 companies, but this is my mission. So I was like, okay, we'll move to Vegas. They shut down Vegas. We'll move to Texas. They shut down Texas. We'll do it in movie theaters.

They shut down the movie theaters. So I built the studio, and we started this process. And so now, the seminar is no longer 15,000 people. A standard, like, you know, Unleashed the Power with an event you go to is got between 40 and 60,000. people because we have people at the event live and people everywhere. So everything is to your advantage if you create these psychological shifts. That's what has to happen in people. And we need some players who want to help fund that. And I'm doing it for free where I can do it as much as I can. But the tools exist. It's not like this, we don't know what to do to rewire people. But if we do

we're going to have problems. And not everyone's going to take advantage of that no matter what you do. And you're going to have to deal with that as a society still. So first of all, we'll put the link to Time to Rise in the show notes and commend it again to everybody here. You know, Tony, the, maybe the advantage is going to be AI Tony at scale. I mean, we're going to have AI delivering, you know, mass issues in this disruption. Well, not only me, but I actually, I'm in discussions right now with an organization that has some of the smartest AI people, I think, on the planet. And we're talking, we've, they've already got it up and running.

We're doing 50 languages. we're doing counseling. And they're just not like, I wouldn't recommend the average therapist. I'm not being disrespectful. I wouldn't recommend the average coach. In any industry, there are people that are exquisitely good,

but they're, you know, it's hard to get to them or their schedule's full. So we're going to make this available literally worldwide for people to help them be able to manage or they could pop on an app and make it happen. Right now it's done for free for people.

At some point there'll be a price point that'll be reasonable. And I'm also, I was just, they just haven't announced it yet, but they just, the federal advisory committee on health and human services, they've had, I guess, I don't know, it's 2,000 people apply. I didn't apply, but there's 15 people on it. And they just selected me and I'm going to be the person who's the mental health side. So it gives me a chance to really look at how I can have some influence on the governmental side to some of these tools, digital tools that can help us do that. Because I think digital tools are part of the answer.

It's the, I think it's the only answer at scales. When I look at your six human needs, right, certainty and uncertainty, variety. significance, love, connection, growth, contribution, AI is hitting every one of those in a disruptive fashion, right? Just in terms of teenagers having relationships with AI girlfriends is going to disrupt normal course of social development for individuals. I mean, the level of uncertainty that's going to hit people in their jobs, level of certainty when I always know I can go get an answer and I have my AI that loves me and always answer it, you know, significance. Not only does it love you, but it always affirms you,

even if you're being an idiot. And tells you, you know, your jokes are hilarious. You're so smart. That's such a great idea, right? It's crazy.

It is. So, I mean, it's going to screw with our six human needs. In a very fun... It already is. As you said,

like, it's more certain for me to pick up my AI and then, like, I don't know if you saw, but the latest statistics in Japan they're talking about

no one's having sex. Yeah. They've moved completely out. They're burnt out by work, and then they fulfill themselves digitally in every way. They're going to, there, as you know,

robots, they think have a soul. So, you know, they have a completely different frame. But, you know, I saw a statistic that it blew my mind. Here in the United States right now, young men 25 to 33 years old, less than one third have ever approached a woman to ask her out for a date physically. Yeah. And that goes along with homeownership.

And, you know, it's crazy. It's, we're destroying sort of the existing social fabric in many ways. And the challenge is, I believe, we're just. at like the 5% of it all, right? I don't even know it's five. You know, you and I, but we can't estimate something so big, but I think you're right. It's at the beginning of the beginning, the beginning.

But I do think there's a solution that's available to us on a larger scale, too, if we can, at a fundamental level, just keep able to understand the story of their life. I mean, what is your life? It's a story. And if you think about, like, if you go to a movie, if you read a book, you know, there's usually seven elements of a story. There's the fundamental way you know what the story's about is the main character has a desire, a driving desire. You know, if you go back like 30 years and you look at a terrible movie to almost everybody's seen, Schwarzenegger made this movie called True Lies.

And in the beginning of this movie, you see the beginning of this guy and you're really like, he's a spy and he's going after the bad guys. So you know what his driving desire is. Your desire determines the story. Is your desire to come one with God? Is your desire to make a billion dollars? Is your desire to help the planet? is your desire to save children is the right poetry, that starts your story. Then the next part of your story is you take a look at this and you start to say,

everybody has a problem or a need or they wouldn't be after that desire. And what you'll see often is you as the person reading or watching the story, you can see the main character's missing courage or they're not very kind or they're not telling the truth. You know, that silly example I gave of Schwarzenegger, you know, he looks like a superhero and he goes home and you realize his family doesn't even know he's a spy. He lies to everybody about everything, right? And so he doesn't have courage at home.

He doesn't have honesty. He doesn't have connection. And then the next part of his story is there's opponents always. There are three opponents. There's the external opponent like those bad guys out here, but then there's the intimate opponent. In that movie, he thinks his wife is cheating on him and she's not, and so he has fights there.

But then there's ultimately the fight within yourself, the internal opponent. And as you fight that, you usually come up with a plan to deal with these opponents. And if you want to make God laugh, tell her your plans, right? You have battles, but eventually if you keep growing those battles, you have self-revelation. You have a moment you realize, oh my God, it's not her, it's me. I'm not being honest. I'm not being courageous here, but not here where it matters.

And that self-revelation leads to new actions, new character, and then you get to an equilibrium where life will never be the same again or, you know, they're happily ever after. That elements of a story, if you can see where you are, where your desires are, what your current plan is, who you're battling with, that allows you to step. out of reaction. But the ultimate step out is this. The oldest story of humanity, first of all, you need a really good opponent, right? If you look at, you know, Science of Lambs and you see Tony Hopkins, Anthony Hopkins with Jody Foster, he's so brilliant and makes her a bigger hero, right? But the hero's journey story, it's been taught a million times. It's in every

culture in the world. We all know of Joseph Campbell. But I just want to remind people, if you can think of your life in terms of the hero's journey. Whatever you're dealing with, technology change, job change, career change, like everyone is going to experience what the first step is in that hero's journey. Your life seems to be okay and then something happens. And they call it the call to adventure. It doesn't feel like adventure when your house burns down. It doesn't feel like adventure and you're burglarized. It doesn't feel like your adventure when you lose your job or the government shuts you down with COVID or you find yourself in a position where someone says you have a tumor. is the beginning of an adventure if you don't give up. And so we experience that extreme stress

that people experience, we're all going to experience it. It doesn't matter how spiritual you are, how religious you are, how believer you are. Doesn't matter how rich you are. Doesn't matter how sincere you are. Everyone's going to experience it more than once. But what happens is most people try to not go on the call, like just ignore it. And it only gets worse, as you know. The old phrase is, If you're going through hell, keep going. If you push through those moments, the people that do, they get three things out of it. Number one, they realize how strong they are. And all these other things you're worried about go away because you start realizing,

I am so much more than I thought it was. Second, you learn who your real friends are, not your Facebook friends or whoever you call them, right? The ones that are there when it's not going well. And third, you get almost an immunity to future challenges. I have a friend that was in Vietnam and was shot down as a pilot and spent six years in solitary confinement. And, like, you know, later on, I remember the IRS was coming after him and, like, aren't you stress? It's like, after the North Vietnamese, are you kidding me? You know, no problem here. So the first step in that journey real fast, think of like Wizard of Oz. Dorothy's got this black and

white, nice life. It's okay. She thinks a big deal is somebody wants to take her dog from her because the dog bit somebody, right? Little toto. And then what happens? She avoids any real change. She just tries to run away. But then life comes and gets you. And when life comes to get you, it comes, you know, when you try to refuse the call, it says, no, you're going on the journey. The tornado takes her. And she finds herself in a new world where there are new people. She makes some new alliances.

She meets some new mentors who are going to help guide her. And she starts to go past the threshold where she can't go back. She's on this road. She's on this new journey. And on that journey, she goes to ordeal. She has to fight the dragon, the witch. in this case, the witch of the East and the West. And she's going to get to the promised land where Oz is going to give her everything.

And she does all these fights and she goes through all these learnings and experiences and she becomes more. And when she gets there, she finds out this guy is not that the person is going to change my life. The answer is already inside of me. The tin man discovers that he already has a heart. The straw man understands he's got a brain. Yes, there's courage. He's demonstrated. It's not that you weren't fearful that you did it anyway for the lion. for the lion, and for her, it's tapping her feet and saying there's no place like home.

Well, when you go through that cycle, when you slay the dragons, you become more and you have now something to give. You come home, a new person. And as soon as you think it's all over, it happens again, right? So when I lost my home, you know, I've helped six million dollars I donated because I just, I couldn't stand the pain I saw people in L.A. You know, I don't live in L.A. Because I saw people that get a 14-day pass, right?

What are they going to do without a home? So I tried to help as many people as I could. But some of the people I helped individually and some of the people I got to talk to, I was like, I lost my home 20 years ago, burned to the ground. Everything I had was gone. My family was alive. That's what mattered. Everything else was gone. There was no place to store your pictures on your history in the cloud.

And I said, but what it led to was a whole new world. I met new friends. I had to move to a new place. I met new mentors. And I have a dear dear friend that I just recently talked to who a year ago lost his home during that time. He's in the best shape he's ever been in. And he never would have made those changes without the call. So AI is the call.

New technology is the call for us to become more. Again, to move from survival to spirit, to move from settling to something greater. I agree with it all. I just want to go back to one point before we leave it, which is this does not exist throughout society today. This is a small percentage of the populace that have come to your. programs have learned your teachings as I have been both I think a close friend and a student of yours and I think that the only way we're able to you know Isaac Azamad has Isaac Asimov's foundation series if you remember that book foretold the

collapse the empire and the whole story is around how do we shorten the dark age yes right so I believe from everything I'm seeing, we're going to have a period of disruption. Yes. Is that disruption three to five years, three to eight years, three to ten years? I don't know, but the challenge has to be how do we, how do we ameliorate the issues? How do we shorten that time? And I think this whole, you know, transformation of mindset, of purpose, of understanding

this as opportunity and calling versus as devastation of your career is critically important. and for whoever is listening to the podcast, I think this is important to teach your kids for you to internalize on your own. I think those who are in heads of corporations or government leaders, this conversation, this kind of planning needs to start today because it's going to take two or three years to roll out. I think this has got to be in middle schools and high schools. You know, I'm decimated by the fact that high schools today are avoiding the discussion. or utilization of AI. This is coming the way towards my 14-year-olds faster than ever before. We understand it.

Understand that, you know, this is a quote from a dear friend who basically said that, you know, AI is not a hand grenade, it's a jetpack, right? And that's how you should think about it. It's not something that's going to blow up your life. it's something that enables you at scale. So I think, Tony, the conversation is, how do we do that, right? How do we get this deployed? I think it's certainly not just what I'm teaching.

I'm one of, Godly knows how many people that have these insights. But I think what it is is having systems of scale. And so I think the education system is a huge part of that process. And that's why I'm personally investing in several approaches where it's a different form of teaching. They're right now private groups. But, you know, looking to find that ideal form. As you know, there's many of them where AI is a part of the process and you can accelerate massively the traditional learning.

But then kids are learning to have grit. Like, well, they've got five-year-olds doing, you know, a five-can, their trike, and they don't think they can do it. And they find out they can. Or a group of kids come together and learn how to, you know, rent and create their own Airbnb experience. You know, there are experiences of life that are coming. And there's a lot of it happening right now. But is it going to come together? Look, three to five years, probably we're going to have some very challenging times to think.

that you're going to go and have every season be the same as absurd. We all think that how it is right now, if it's terrible, it's always going to be terrible, it's good, it's always going to be good, but the four seasons of life happen. And so we will go through a tough summertime, or you could call it a tough winter time, but, you know, some people freeze the death in winter, other people learn to ski and snowboard and build a fire and be with their family. And what I'm suggesting is our discussions and many other discussions, not just the ones we're having, hopefully will stimulate more people to say, I'm going to choose to have this be a season I love and enjoy and grow from, not what I'm fearful of. And at the same time, I know not everyone will.

I'm going to do everything I can to support individuals, organizations, or tools that can help people navigate this time period. Because on the other side of it, again, you'll have another springtime. You'll have a time where, you know, there's times when people are optimistic, everybody believes everything's going to go great, and it goes for a period of time. But you've got to remember, human beings are cyclical just like the seasons. Our emotions are. We go 15 years, 20 years, if you study 1,000 years of Roman history or 500 years of Anglo-American history, which I've done pretty deeply.

You see there's period. There's that springtime where everybody's optimistic and it's great. But eventually, if you smile constantly, your face hurts. We need variety. So then you go through, or the universe, you go through a summer that's a little tough, a little hard. And then you go to the fall where everything's easy and you reap and the economy's great. And then you go through a great winter. Life is strengthening us, testing us, and they're giving us a chance to.

to grow. Testing us and a chance to grow. That cycle is not going to go away because technology enters our world. It doesn't mean because there's no work that there won't be seasons. Those seasons are part of nature. They're part of something larger than ourselves. And so what you want to do is figure out how do you take advantage of what a season you're in, how do you help your family? And I think coming back to developing some new habits, like, okay, getting your kids to take 10 or 15 minutes a day that was spent scrolling and they're going to learn AI, just 10, 15 minutes a day. We do courses for people like that. Or I'm going to go do something in some area. I'm going to study nanotechnology. I'm going to study my own human psychology.

Taking these little micro-learning moments as a new habit will change people's lives because it will get them to start recognizing patterns, using them, and eventually creating their own. And when you create your own, when you become a creator, all this fear disappears. It's not that you won't have challenging times. It's just nothing sustains you more than your own capacity, your own identity that says, I find a way always to take things to the next level. And the biggest thing missing, I think for most human beings, is they're looking to what they can get instead of what they can give. Every person I know, and you're one included, you're talking about moonshots, right?

It's like, we found things we care about way more than ourselves, whether it be your kids, your family, your community. I mean, you know, you know, I got fed when I was 11 years old. It changed my life. We had no food. And now I fed 62 billion meals. I did a billion on my own here. the U.S. and now we've done 62 billion towards our 100 billion meals. I learned how to scale,

just like I did in business, my philanthropy. And that gives me more juice than anything else. You've got to have something that you care about more than yourself. And then you have plenty of energy to face not just the challenges, but to surpass the challenges, because you'll have a compelling future. The one thing I'd say everyone needs, anyone can be able to difficult today if they have a compelling tomorrow. So when we go through this process, we've got to show people how to navigate it and show them how to create a compelling future out of it. And again, I think what AI is really going to do, if it does the things that, you know, people are saying it's going to do, if it really does eliminate a lot of our survival instincts, if we have access

to an AI doctor, an AI, whatever, and we can create what we want in our own life on our own terms, then the bottom line is we still need to feel alive. We need to grow. The one thing that makes people feel alive is progress. Progress equals happiness. And if I'm growing and I'm stimulating that growth, it doesn't matter that economics are no longer the primary focus of it or survival. It's something else that will light me up. And we need to find that, what you call moonshot, what I call a magnificent obsession. And when you find that, man, life is never the same again. And you and I both know that. We have the privilege of living those lives. But we develop that compelling future. And we need to help other people do the same. Yeah, agreed. We call it a massive

transformative purpose. What wakes you up in the morning, keeps you going through the day that you obsess over. you know let's talk about something that i wrote about in my upcoming book we are as gods tony we've talked about the universe 25 experiment you know our dear mutual friend dr oz first brought it to my attention i if listeners don't know what universe 25 was let me just do a quick recap so there was a behavioral scientist named john calhoun back in the late 60s early 70s and he created a mouse utopia this was a large facility with all the of food, water, nesting, no predators, no disease. It was basically a mouse paradise.

It was his 25th time he'd done this. And he'd gotten the results consistently over time. So initially, he puts in four mating pairs. The population grows exponentially. But it reaches this threshold where social behaviors begin to break down. The mice withdraw, they're apathetic, they're hyper-aggressive, their social dysfunction. The mice stop mating. parenting declines, the infant mortality spikes.

And he describes these mice called the beautiful ones, that they groom themselves all day long and they lose any need for social behavior reproduction. And then ultimately, the entire society of mice collapses, not from any external threat. And he talks about how the actual need for purpose and meaningful challenge matters more than almost anything else. And let's talk about that.

You've addressed that in part, but just the purposeful life being absolutely critical. And I think most of society, their purpose is putting food on the table and taking care of their kids or getting a Netflix account. And we're going to have to up level that to a huge degree. It's true. One thing I'd just caution, though, is we're not mice. Yeah. And you've done enough medical studies to know that about 80% of the people, of the studies that come up with, affect mice, don't affect us the same way. But in this case,

it's obvious. Mice do not have the creativity that we're at least aware of of of creating meaning, right? We have that capacity. We have the ability to use death as a counselor, something that creates maybe a drive for us to do something with our lives. We have the ability to create something from nothing. But let's be honest. When people talk about Darwin, you know, people talk about the strongest, you know, survive. And that's not what he said. He said, not the strongest of the species that survives is not the most intelligent. It's those are the most responsive to change, the most adaptable doing. So it's like our ability to adapt as a species is unmatched.

That's why we dominate the planet for better or worse, you can argue, but we dominate the planet. So I think having that sense of purpose, we've talked about it multiple times here, is critical. But I think there are many people that are going to take, you gave the example, I think of what you call the Wally example, where I'm just going to be entertained by the world and just grow into a fat person that doesn't move and moves around in a scooter versus, you know, the Star Trek thing where I'm going on the adventure to uncover what things are. That's always been true of humanity.

It's, that has never changed, and I don't think it's going to change with this. There are going to be people that are going to use AI and all this technology to just be in tamed and do nothing. Think about it right now. There are, from the ages of 25 to 35 male boys, men, young men, are living at home. a larger percentage than any time in human history, including the depression. And what do they do? The majority of them play video games. Their mom does their laundry, and they are under order Uber Eats. And they live in that universe, that digital universe where

I don't know how much added value is happening for their life, much less anybody else. So there's always going to be those who maintain and there's going to be those that create. There's always going to be people like yourself. I think you made my point. I think he made the point about the universe 25 experiment. there is that population who are just self-soothing because it's easy. And unless there's the intellectual sort of the groundwork placed early on in the child's life, I mean, one of the challenges, and I think about this as a parent, is like you know, you're a perfect example, hardship early in your life develops this need, right?

I had that conversation with Elon. He was, you know, in South Africa, it was a very dangerous. place and his goal was to escape there. And most successful people, not all, but most successful people had a sense of hardship early on. And if we're eliminating a lot of physical need hardships, you know, you don't want to try and artificially create that. But again, I'm going back to how do you up-level people's sense of purpose in this regard.

What you have to awaken is hunger. You're really talking about is hunger. Hardship can awaken hunger, but so can creativity. You know, sometimes your life doesn't change. Then you meet somebody and they have this extraordinary life, something that you value, relationship-wise, business-wise, impact, lifestyle, whatever. And people look and go, man, I'm as smart as that guy is. What the hell is happening here?

And they awaken to a new possibility. It doesn't have to be because something was taken from you. There are some people that are just driven to be the best in their life, and there wasn't necessarily a hardship. But I think more have been. That's absolutely true because hunger is, I'm asked all the time. People say, you know, you meet people all over the earth. You meet the most challenged, the most successful. What are the most successful people on Earth have in common?

And my first response in the early days was extraordinary intelligence, because I love wickedly smart people. You being one, I'm not floating you compliments. You know who you are. I'm a fairly smart guy myself. And so I love that. I love that interaction. But I found there are brilliantly smart people that can't fight their way out of a paper bag in real life. So the number one factor is hunger.

The hunger to be more, do more, create more, give more. a hunger that never goes away. You know, the hunger that you say, you know, when you look at somebody, you know, like Richard Branson, like, you know, he still has it in his 70s that he did when he was 16 in that cemetery, you know, starting up his little music company, right? So it's virgin at that time. He still has it today. As long as that hunger is alive, the world is going to be something that's going to be a beautiful

place for you. And all these tools are tools you will use with your agency to create something extraordinary. But look, there's levels of consciousness. Just one more model for a second. There's gaming Graves, Dr. Graves, who in the 60s, you know, it looked like the world in the early 70s was coming apart. Young people were fighting older people. You know, people who just looked in the short term as saying

our society is being pulled apart into nothingness. You know, black and white, women versus men, all these issues. And he started studying the evolution of societies. And he developed what he called these eight levels of consciousness. and anyone hears about it, it's worth looking at, right? And what he did was, it calls it spiral dynamics. Now, I learned about it when I had the chance to work with Nelson Mandela, because when he was coming back

after a quarter century of being locked up, he could have wanted to kill every white person around, and you wouldn't support it, but you'd understand, right? Because everything was taken from unfairly. But instead, he got people to stop thinking white versus black by using these colors. He took these spiral dynamics into colors. Is that person a blue person or a green person or a red person?

So let me give it you for 10 seconds. The first, there's eight levels real fast. Well, maybe you can put them on the screen later to show people. But level one is just survival or instinct. That's someone that's basically when you're a baby or when you're really old and you don't have your faculties. You're basically stimulus response. Level two of consciousness. And again, consciousness means what do you care about?

You don't need to make it more intellectual than that. At the second level, what they call purple, it's called tribal order. You care about things and you care about other people because they can affect your pain or pleasure. So you join a tribe. Now, you can be on a sports team and see people in tribal order who wear the same jock strap, who put on the same thing. They believe in the certain rhythms that are going to give them the same result, certain gods, right? But in the tribal order area, there's someone who leads in. It's usually the storyteller, the shaman.

We evolve. each of these stages evolved because we get to a point we can't have more problems and so our brain finally forces ourselves to look at life in a new way. The third level is called power gods.

The power god they think of as red and think of it is when you go red mad. A red person is a person who no longer just want certainty anymore they want significance. And so now a red person might be the kings of the past who just took the peasants

and you work for me, you live for me, you die for me, you die for. for me, right? Power gods could be, you can find a power god today in some, you know, bands, right? You can see out there. Rock stars. They go and they can wreck the whole building and somebody pays all the money and they keep doing it. Everybody was a two-year-old power god, right? No is the word you learned to say. So not everybody evolves, and I'm telling you these because we get to certain levels and the effect the way we look at life. The fourth level is called order in the absolute. This is blue. Why would you go from being the

power god where you're in charge and you only... everything and you have the power and you're the most significant one because at some point you think about death or you're getting older and a young power god's coming up and so that evolved into I need to figure out how I can be good forever and it became the idea of the religious approach that if I can follow these universal rules then I can have heaven forever I can have this kingdom forever I can have this beauty forever but now I have to go from just thinking about my own uncertainty and my own significance to how do I affect other people. That was the value of religion. I have to look at that because it affects whether I'm going to be damned or not. And it became a new

consciousness. Well, blue has its limits because after a while people start to question, how could this one guy, whether it's the Pope or the general in the army, that's another blue environment, the rules are clear. You live by them or you're punished severely, right? Well, we evolve from that because people start saying, I don't buy it. I don't believe they have the whole answer. I want to try it on my own. And that evolved into what modern society is, at least in a good portion of America, which is what we call a striver, driver, an orange. That's a person who's like, no, I test the rules. I'm in business or I'm a scientist. I'm going to test it and prove what works. And if it works, then it doesn't matter what you think. That's what science is. That's what basically

business is. Then people get burnt out on that eventually because everything is a transaction. I'm doing this to prove that, to get this. And that can evolve to green, which is what Most of us think of as socially conscious, where instead of everything is rule-driven, like we all have a voice. We all care. We think about the environment. We think about everything. But each level has its strengths and weaknesses. They all think they're the most important level.

You know, if I ask people, which level are you? And they'll tell people, I'm socially conscious on the top of the tree. Or I'm a business person. We employ all you greenies and make it possible for you. Or the reds go, I don't give a damn, you know, you screw around, I'll take your life. Or the blues go, I need to save you. they look at the same problems in different ways, but they all think they're superior when the truth is we need them all.

It's like I've said to you, what's more important, the atom or the molecule? What would you say? They are one to component in the other, and they're both critical. The molecule or the cell. You get the game, right? The cell or the organism or the ecosystem, or the ecosystem or the ecosystem or the planet or the earth. So you take out any chain and we all fall apart. So they're all invaluable, and the goal is to move up and down this.

There is a seventh level called yellow, which is flex flow. Flexflow knows that, you know, we need to have some sense of hierarchy like orange and blue look at, but we also need to be able to flex like green can. It allows you to look at things and say, not who's there because of the number of years, but who has the answers. And then the final level that he talks about is an awakened soul. That's where you feel everything. I feel humans.

My wife feels animals. She can tell what's going on. And we all have moments of these levels. Now, why am I telling you this? Because right now, most of the world is in trouble is at level two, three, and four, meaning purple, red power gods, you know, order in the absolute. It's this or it's that or I kill you type of thing. Modern society is more level five, that orange driver, driver, and some green.

AI is going to take away, potentially, if it can do the things that you were talking about and that Elon's talking about and eliminate, bring this world of abundance, it literally takes us out of all these survivors. survival elements and calls us to go to this integrated view of life, this spiritual awaken tool of life where we feel connected to everything and we can create things at that level. So there's going to be people that do that and there's going to people that are going to play their video games or the new version of that that's 3D totally immersive and we're not going to get away from that.

But here's what I'll tell you about history. You can find history in four sentences. Good times create weak people. We have society back in the roaring 20s that if you were a kid, you were not a story. known as a flapper and you were irresponsible and the whole world changed with technology overnight. Cars, radios, television, airplanes. It was unbelievable. And you thought when I turned 1918, I'm going to get a car. You're born in 1910, let's say. And guess what? 1929 comes when you're 18 years old, 19 years old and people are jumping out of buildings and people are standing in

food lines and you got the dust bowl in middle of the country. And that generation of people who were so week went through 10 years of depression from 19 to 29, and they got strong because they had to be. And then right when they thought they were going to have a break, World War II breaks out. Hitler looks like he's winning, and they go and fight the war and they come back. So they spend 15, 20 years to basically the time they're 35 years old living with unbelievable challenge, and that's the only way you build a muscle. So guess what? Easy times, the roaring 20s, created weak people.

Weak people paid bad times. Bad times create strong people. And strong people create great times. And you can see that evolution in every 100 years and 20-year cycles. And today, you'll hear people that are, you know, ex-generation or even, you know, somebody older, you know, talk about, let's say, millennials today, or talk about, you know, Z generation. and they talk about how they're so spoiled and they got it so easy. And there's some truth to that. They haven't had to work anywhere near as much as other generations.

But I guarantee you we're going to face some real challenges coming up. And those are the new hero generations. The very generations people don't think is they understand technology and they're going to learn how to grow and build muscle. And they're going to help make the world a better place, in my opinion. And I think that's the next step. That's part of the evolution of consciousness that technology is going to call for us. And speaking of conscious and brilliant individuals, I'm going to use this as a point to invite my moonshot mates in, if it's okay.

Yeah, I would love that. Let's bring him in and I'll introduce you to them. This episode is brought to you by Blitzy, Autonomous Software Development with Infinite Code Context. Blitzy uses thousands of specialized AI agents that think for hours to understand enterprise scale code bases with millions of lines of code. Engineers start every development sprint with the Blitzie. platform bringing in their development requirements. The Blitzy platform provides a plan, then generates and pre-compiles code for each task. Blitzy delivers 80% or more of the development work autonomously, while providing a guide for the final 20% of human development work required

to complete the sprint. Enterprises are achieving a 5x engineering velocity increase when incorporating Blitzie as their pre-IDE development tool, pairing it with their coding co-pilot of choice to bring an AI-Native S-DLC into their org. Ready to 5X your engineering velocity, visit blitzie.com to schedule a demo and start building with Blitzy today. Tony, I want to introduce to three of my best friends, my moonshot mates, I call them. Salim Ismail. Salim is the CEO of Exponential Organizations, was my co-founder with Ray at Singularity.

Yes. Alex Weizner Gross is our resident genius. in the world of AI and all things exponential. And Dave Blondin, my partner in my AI lab. Yes. Anyway, three amazing individuals. And I've had the chance to cover so many subjects with them. And I wanted to bring them in to have this conversation for the next 30 minutes or so.

I wish we were asking these questions of them so I could hear their answers. And I welcome you to ask the questions of them as well. All right. Some other time. We'll do a follow-up. Who wants to jump in first? Salim? Tony, I've got to say I've been teaching a class at MIT called Foundations of AIA Ventures for the last five years and two semesters. So 10 classes, about 130 people in each class.

So, you know, 1,300 people have heard me say, act like Tony Robbins. There's only one winning attitude in life because everyone comes in. You know, they're a student. They think they want to be too cool for school or they want to be like, no, there's only one way to act that actually works. If you have any desire to be an entrepreneur, a builder, creator, just study every video of Tony and act exactly like that. It's the winning strategy. So thank you for being a role model for those 1,300 people. Not to mention me, by the way.

Thank you. You can't be too kind to Tony. I'm curious, as you're dealing with these kids today, what are the biggest questions that they're dealing with as they look at where the world's unfolding with technology? Exactly what you guys have been talking about. You know, one thing you touched on is Japan, but if you look at Korea, you know, has the highest tech penetration in the world, highest smartphone penetration in the world. Samsung has record profits. By any technical metric, it should be the greatest place on Earth. Highest suicide rate in the world.

And 0.6 children per couple. So basically, 0.6 children per couple at that exponential decay rate, it'll disappear from the Earth in just a couple generations. And this is what they're thinking about. And it's good that they're thinking about it because they want to live in a happy, abundant, fruitful world with their friends, exactly the things that you guys were talking about. And AI is going to create this rate of change that is just beyond belief. And it doesn't correlate with happiness necessarily. It needs to be turned into happiness. Well, we all know we've met people.

We all know people that have got more than enough economic resources, billions of dollars, and who are miserable. Those are phone calls that I often got to deal with and deal with people. So the abundance doesn't guarantee anything. But I do agree with you, I think, unfortunately, the level of engagement. What's the biggest problem in business day? It's engagement. You know, we used to, you know, it's the lowest level since COVID that we've ever had. You know, they look at engagement, what's obvious, disengagement, which is, you know, what we now call quiet quitting, where someone's doing the minimum.

And then active disengagement, which is someone who's not only trying to do the minimum, but also trying to hurt the company. And we've had the biggest drop in engagement and the highest increase in active disengagement. engagement. And so it's like what's happening is people are fulfilling himself other ways. Like, why should I go to work? Why should I do this? We have a cultural shift where technology is meeting some of those six needs. They're getting certainty easily. I don't have to do anything for the certainty. I don't have to grow. I don't have to push myself. I don't have face my fears. They get unlimited variety. They can feel significant by tearing somebody down with a couple of keystrokes. They don't even know. And they have no volatility. I mean, there's no consequence

for that. And then they also can feel connected to other people the same way. But what they don't experience is the spiritual needs, which is to grow. And also when we grow, have this thing where we have something to give. And that's where the emptiness is. That's why we have so many people out there talking about, you know, their mental health. And the solution that we've been promoting since COVID, or at least pop culture has been promoting, has been this idea of you need to take care of yourself more. What's the term everybody uses these days? Self-care, right? I don't need more self-care. But what you find is that people get weaker and weaker. Don't get me wrong, you need to take care of yourself. But I think the biggest challenge is without the push to build anything of any form

of muscle, meaning a spiritual muscle, courage, faith, determination, right? Creativity. If there's no push for that, then we start to diminish. And I think what has to happen, I think I don't have the right answers by any stretch. I'm actually encouraged by countries like Australia, who some things I don't like they've done, like what they did during COVID, but I like the idea of some of these countries that are starting to say, hey, kids can't get on social media until they're 16, 17, 18. You only get so many hours. Unfortunately, you'd expect that to be parents, but we no longer have family units the same way or any cohesion in the teaching. Today, so many people I read a statistic other day said a third of families have someone in their family they don't talk to you anymore.

To me, that's insane. But we aren't teaching people that, look, life is about us sharing, we can have different points of view. It's if we have a different point of view than me, then I have to eliminate you. Or that words are violence. I mean, Chris Rock said to me, goes, if people say words are violence, they've never have your face slapped the shit out of on the next to the television, right? It's like, it's just bullshit.

So we have these belief systems we poured into our younger generation. that are actually harming them, and then we're giving them tools that addict them, and they're wondering why our society isn't flourishing. It's kind of like, think about it this way. When we have a bunch of people that are financially not doing well, we put them together in a project. How are they ever going to get better where there's no examples of success there? We take a bunch of people that are crazy and put them in a mental institution and wonder why they don't get better. The way we get better is by different examples and offerings. And so we need to go full force, in my opinion, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, as leaders, as people in politics, where we start to say, what are the two or three things that can make the biggest difference? Part of that's got to be in the educational system, as we've already talked about.

But I think another part of that is just what is the discourse? What is the narrative about what's going to give you a fulfilled life? Because most people have fallen into making a living. They've been disappointed by so many things. They're no longer designing their life. and now they're in that maintaining mode and they're stressed all the time. During COVID there was a woman in the New York Times

who did an article with all these people are trying to do less and less so they'd be less stressed. And she got a nine-week basic time management course. I mean, really basic. And what she found was that their life satisfaction scores, their work level went up three times and their life satisfaction scores went up 4x

just from learning how to get more out of their life. That is one of the greatest sources of hope. We don't teach anybody, we don't teach young people any of these skills and they wonder why they wind up addicted to, you know, some devices that are designed to addict them. You can see how this could go horribly wrong and how it could be really, really good in exactly what you said. Because AI could be like junk food, emotional junk food. You know, you just get addicted to the easy path, and before you know it, you're emotionally fat.

Or it could go the other direction where you commit that I want to be a better person. And you just tell the AI, hold me accountable. Yes. And then it becomes like a life coach. It keeps you on track. It encourages you. It motivates you. And it really comes down to whether the people behind it are motivated by improving the world or motivated by squeezing money out of you, you know, or some other negative motivation.

And it's all just bait into that. And which one's the driving force for the majority? Well, I think, you know, you have such a huge following of highly motivated people or who people want to be highly motivated. If there's a good option out there and we'll keep track of it, you know, ourselves. on this pod. But if there's a good option out there, you can point a lot of people toward it, and it can make a huge impact on the world. Anything you know of that nature, I hope you guys will fill me in. You know, you've got access to me through Peter and two seconds flat. I want to make sure that we get as much out there

as possible. And like I said, I've been put on the federal advisory committee for health and human services, and some of that on mental health, that should give me another avenue of having deeper discussions because, you know, I know a lot of people in that position, Bobby Kennedy's friend of mine. I'm face Dr. Oz is a friend of mine. Marty is a good friend of mine. So we've got a lot of of brilliant people in that area on the health side. And I think you can attack it from the mental health side. It's one part of it. But I think we got also, you know, you see all these kids that think they will think communism is the answer, right? I don't know if the number's accurate, but I heard that, I read someplace that 80% of the female vote of young people went to Mondani,

right? It's like, okay, here's the solution because it sounds so nice. I'm old enough. I went and actually when it was still the Soviet Union, I was invited over because of the work I was doing with firewalking, things that nature. So I went with a group of scientists, and I traveled the country. And I got to see pure communism right up front. And we traveled on this train,

literally from Moscow to Siberia and back, over a period of two weeks. And we were on a train where everybody's supposed to be equal, and everybody there is having caviar and everything else. And every train stop in every town, there is a giant center area, and you'd see people wrapped in the freezing cold three, you know, three quarters of a mile around, wing in line to get a quarter of milk

and half a loaf of bread. I mean, and these people having caviar, it turned me into a capitalist. I didn't know what a capitalist was, but when I left there, I was so pissed. But kids today have no clue. They just think it means more good stuff. And it's, you know, some of these kids had been, had a helicopter parent that took care of their whole life. And so they think the government should be that. They don't know the cost of what that's going to be. And unless we keep putting out the truth. And also, we find solutions. to help them through this unique time, then I think we're in for a rough patch here for a period of time. Isn't it amazing how much fate they put in the government, though, like as if it's there.

Like somebody up there must be studying and understanding all of this. I mean, you are the government now, right? Tony, you're the guy. Actually, you should tell us more about that commission because that's going to be hugely important in this transition year. What is that all about? Well, they just formed it, and they haven't even announced it all yet, but there's 15 of us on the council. I'm the mental health one. And so I'm going to be sitting down with them

or we're looking at what's the game plan for maximizing. But the first focus is tapping into digital technology to improve the quality of people's lives. So I'm sure you know they're already going to invest now for people on Medicare and so forth so they can wear like their whoops and measure what's really going on with people. They want people to have that.

But then there's the mental, digital mental health side that can help people like AI counselors. I mean, as I said, I'm working with a company right now. We're producing some results that even blow my mind. where it isn't an average person. It's the best of the best. They've read every single psychological book there is, but then we can guide them through some of the latest tools

because some of that technology is 100 years old. It would be like you wouldn't use a phone from 10 years ago. Why would you even consider that technology from 100 years ago related to our mind? But that's traditionally what we do in traditional psychology. So there are tools available. That is one of the most powerful. The digital world can help us scale that.

That's where we can make a difference. You think about all the positions you could have in the entire world right now? and what's one of the most powerful and important ones? I mean, that role as the person in charge of health with AI federally at the national level, you can't pick anything more critical to the success of the country and to the world, really. Well, I'm not in control of it. I'm an advisor. I don't want to play a bigger than it is.

But it does put me in a position to be able to take the stuff that I learned from you guys and other people and say, bring it to the table for discussion. And I think we have an administration here that, you know, whether you like the administration or not, The one thing they are is aggressively trying to do the most they can to get people to be healthy again, to get poisons out of foods and to operate in ways that could help people have an emotional base that is different than we have right now. We have the largest mental health issues that we've heard about and Godly knows when. You've seen what suicide rates have been and so forth. Post-COVID, we've gotten weaker and we've got to become stronger. Well, I keep telling everyone around the schools all hate the administration because they're cutting funding, whatever.

I tell everyone, look, I don't care whether you like the administration or not. This is the only one that matters in the AI era. We're only one year into it, guys. There's three more years to go. Look at the rate of AI change. So either get comfortable with the administration, but if you wait it out, it's over. So you'll make your peace with it. It's going to be a different world.

Yeah. Tony, when you talk to young people, what are the best techniques you've found that awaken that hunger in them? What are the techniques and the hacks that you've found? I find telling them, like, I never used to tell them. my story of what actually my youth was like. You know, my mother was the most influential person in my life, and God rest your stole, I wouldn't be who I'm without her. But she also mixed alcohol with prescription drugs, and when that happened, she was

extremely violent. And so I remember the first time I was with this group of kids, and they all were, had single mothers from minority families, majority, and I was up there speaking to them initially, and I could just see, read their minds. You know, this tall, rich guy, white guy, you know, what the hell? So I just, first time my life, I told the whole story. I was never derogatory. My mom has passed at this stage.

But I just told them the burning truth. I had them all crying their eyes out by the time I was done. So then they understood that, hey, we have the same background element. And then I told them your biography is not your destiny. It doesn't matter where you've come from. It's the choices you make now. And so I got credibility by entering their world in a way that was absolutely as real and raw as possible. And I used very direct language that they understood at that.

stage. I entered their world. And so I find it's really critical to try to see who you're dealing with no matter where you're on the world, right? You know, if I'm going to speak in China, you know, I have to understand the cultural rules there or I'm not going to be able to reach people appropriately. I know the human needs are the same, but I got to still make it through those rules. So I find with kids, if they can see that this is real, because, you know, we live in a world where everybody talks about the wealth gap. Well, a big part of the wealth gap is there's about a dozen people that are going to $100 billion, $200 billion, $300 billion, you know, That's very different than the mean, as we'd know.

And so when you're on social media, you used to compare yourself to the neighbor, right? Now you compare yourself to billionaires. There's what, 3,000 of them roughly in the world? I mean, no, that'll make you feel like you're behind. It's literally what made, you know, Russia, you know, change. People started to see what's happening to West and said, I wanted that.

But now we're creating a level of discomfort and unfairness to people because they're having an expectation that they should be the winners of the lottery, and not everybody is going to be, even if you're smart and even if you're incredibly skilled. So I think it's getting it real and showing there's still a path because so many kids think there's no path to having a home, to no path to having.

And I tell them, look, when I bought my first home, I was 18 years old, it was 2008, and interest rates at that point were 16%. You know, it's like, and they look at me like, are you crazy? You know, it's like people are complaining about 7%, you know, 6%. So I think it's entering their world, showing them what's real,

and demonstrating it still can be done and helping them build a compelling future. To me, that's the most important part. I'm a Tony A.I. subscriber, by the way, so I've really been enjoying getting your... Oh, I'm glad to hear that. That's great. Although, I've got a slight beef with you. You know, back in Singularity University,

you'd brought your platinum group, and I moderated the couple of days, and then you took me aside afterwards, and you said, I need a couple of minutes with you. And you said, there's a group of people that know the world is changing you dramatically. I call that the TED crowd, you said. There's a subset of that group, you said,

that knows how deep and broad that changes, which is kind of like your singularity people. But then there's a number of people that know what to do about it that would put that group on one hand. And you said, Sleem, you're one of them, don't stop if you have any inclination on this stuff. And that's been bugging me ever since.

So thanks a lot of help. It's acknowledging who you are. Appreciate it, but dang. Alex, why'd you pop in? Alex, you want to say something brilliant? Pressure's on it. By the way, Alex has three degrees from MIT in four years. the three hardest you can get, and his PhD from Harvard.

So it was actually three plus one. Anyway, sorry. Congratulations on your new advisory position. And I should say as a preliminary matter, I don't have any financial interest in your budding empire, but congratulations nonetheless. I did have a question based on your anecdote about the Soviet Union. So there are millions, as I understand it,

who look to you for insight in terms of gaining financial freedom, thinking about retirement, and yet, and yet, in the next 10 years, there are many, myself included, who think that advances in AI are going to transform the way finance is done, perhaps beyond recognition. First question, would you be interested in leading sort of a Manhattan project for the global economy to prepare people for a new world, a new economic world, where perhaps money as we know it is obsolete and scarcity as we know it has turned to abundance. Well, I don't know if I'm qualified to be the leader, but I'd love to be a supporter of it any way I could be, of course. And one thing I try to get across to young people also, because this is coming, is besides the obvious of what they can do now and what they can do today and what they have control over is, I remember when I was 18 years old, I had a teacher named Jim Rohn.

He was a personal development and kind of a business philosopher. And, you know, I had four different fathers. And one of the reasons I've fed a billion people in the U.S. and $60 billion overseas is because I wasn't fed. But I was on Thanksgiving when I was 11. Somebody delivered food for our family when we had no food. We had crackers and peanut butter, but we didn't have a meal. And the reason I tell you that is when I look at those experiences and I say, how can I help someone understand, you know, why is it some school teacher in those days? I went to my teacher and I said, how come the school teacher, you know, I told him, look, I got four fathers.

They're all good men. We were always broke. We were always worried where the next meal was going to come from. And I said, you know, I'm only 17 at the time. And I said, you know, and my current father is going through it right now. And I said, he's a good man. And I said, you know, a school teacher, I think in those days, making like $35,000. And then you see this hedge fund guy made a billion dollars last year. I said, I don't understand this. This doesn't seem fair. And he said something I'll never forget and it shaped my whole life. He said, Tony, you are right. We are all equal as souls on this planet, but we're not equal in the marketplace. And I said, what does that mean? He said, was it possible for someone to earn twice as much money in the same time, four times as much money, 10 times, 100 times? And so obviously there are

people to do it. I said, how? He goes, that's the answer. The how is you have to become more valuable. If you go to work at McDonald's and you get minimum pay, it's not designed to be a great job. It's a first job. It's not designed to be your whole career. And the reason is anyone can learn to do that job in a few hours max, today, even faster. There'll be machines that are doing it in some of these places, right? He said, so it's not worth much. Your job is to learn to do more for others than anybody else in the marketplace. If you become more valuable in your skills, your insight, your tools, and you have more

you can give, and it's what people need, there will be no limit. So I think in any change of society that we talk about, where maybe economics are not is primary, I think there's still the idea that we all need to find. what's the added value that we're bringing to the marketplace, so to speak. When I say marketplace, to our children, to our family, to our community. In other words, nobody feels valuable

because you just tell them they are. When people talk about self-esteem, I hate this term, it's so overused. People say, well, I don't have any self-esteem because when I was growing up, you know, my parents said this and that to me. Well, someone can tell you you're the most beautiful person,

you're the smartest child on the planet, you're brilliant and you can not believe it. You're pretty and not believe it. You can have someone tell you a piece of crap in some part of you can say, I'll show you, right? Your self-esteem has nothing to do with what are people said to. Your self-esteem is based on only one thing,

esteem for yourself, and that is earned. When you get yourself to do something, it's incredibly difficult, and by doing it, it not only benefits you but others, there is an explosion in self-esteem. And I think whatever happens in the world, the idea that I'm here to bring something to life, that life is calling me to bring something, even if there's no economics involved,

is the most important element to have a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, and therefore a healthy, a vital and a joyful and meaningful life. A follow-up question, if I may, just on the notion of scarcity, but also you've clearly impacted so many millions of people with your way of thinking in terms of finance, in terms of life outcomes. I have to ask you the contrarian question, which is what information do you still have in your mind that you have, haven't already shared with the world? What, what viewpoint do you have that is so wildly shocking and not evenly distributed that if you told me what it is now, it would make national or international news? What, what secrets do you have left? First of all, I'm not that significant. I'm just one guy trying to help as many people as I can. I don't pretend to be God or have these giant insights. I feel very lucky and sincerely to be in the presence of people with the greatest minds

of all of you. No bullshit to that. So I honor you and respect you. But I don't know. I think there's an ongoing evolution in me as I'm sure there isn't you, right? I mean, if you and I stopped our growth and stopped our insights. And so how many of the insights that I have around intimate relationship or around how to scale a business or around what you can do with your physical body with some of the breakthroughs that are there, those are ongoingly growing. You know, Peter and I wrote that book, what just two years ago, Peter was it? Maybe three? Lifeforce, yeah, three years. Yeah, life force. And, you know, we, you know, as I usually do, we wrote a little tiny book with like 700 pages, you know, the thing. And we use Bible paper, so it doesn't look too big. But I wanted to hit every angle. And I had the right partner with Peter. We could dig into everything there. So, but even after that, there was a couple of years ago, there's so many new things, Peter and I do. So we have businesses where those things can happen. So I don't know if there's any one thing in one area. I just say, I'm going to continue to evolve. And then as I do, try to use as many vehicles as possible to share things. There are people that are interested. I'm not the right style for everybody. I'm quite passionate, intense, you know, talk 100 miles a minute. That's not the right style for people. I may not come in the right package.

But what I'm more interested in is platforms where multiple voices can make that happen, not just me. And that's why I'm interested, for example, in AI interventions. Yes, I have an AI, and yes, we have AI interventions, but having you be able to pick a style that's supportive or more challenging or a man or a woman,

all those choices in your language that you can access 24-7 when the problem's happening, you know, with someone the level of skill that I would have or someone else you would respect or we would respect together, to me, that's where it gets exciting. So I think it's more the distribution of those distinctions into vehicles where people have one-to-one relationships at scale. You know, that's why I try to do with feeding people,

take it to scale. And, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have my own private plane. It uses a lot of fuel. So I was like, okay, what's my fuel burn? You know, how much am I using? And I, you know, I found I needed, you know, 3,000 trees. So I planted 100 million trees, set a goal and I did it in four years, right? It's like, so in everything I do, I'm looking to scale it.

You know, when my wife and I, you know, witness some friends whose child was abducted and trafficked and the most horrific thing you can imagine. So, you know, we stepped in and now in the last seven years, we've, you know, help free 70,000, more than 70,000 kids in that category. So it's like scale to me is what I'm looking. to do. Take any insight we can scale it. But I don't pretend to have all the answers or even the right answers. I have some answers for some people that are interested in that style. One more question, if I may, along those lines, Tony. So scaling. If you had the opportunity

to upload your mind into the cloud and scale yourself indefinitely, say, sometime in the next 10 years, would you take it? 100%. 100%. Why would you not, by the way, I'm not suggesting that everything I'm going to load there is going to be valuable. I don't want of bullshit in there. You probably say it doesn't work for me, but you would allow people to select what is most valuable for them on a major scale. And quite frankly, I believe that possibility

or at least a version of what you describe will happen in the next three to 10 years. I think it will. Whether I can put that in and then this vehicle goes away and my consciousness continues like Ray Kurzweil talks about, who's a dear friend of ours,

I love him to death. I don't know if that's the same thing. I don't know if, I think there's something called spirit that I believe in. I could be dead wrong. You could say it's just, you know, it's just X's and O's and information and data, but I don't know, I don't know if that's there. But to make a contribution beyond my lifetime

is my goal already. I don't have any sense of bullshit self-importance like I'm going to be a historic figure or something. But while I'm here, I want to help and touch as many lives as I can, and I want to leave as much as I can for my family and my grandchildren and children and for anybody else that's interested that finds value in it.

Yeah, and if you had the opportunity since, So much of what I think you talk about is willpower and everything in connection with that. If you had the power in connection with uploading or a high band with brain computer interface or some other AI assistant to gain conscious control over your dopamine response, would you exercise that? It's a great question. I have never thought about that. I think if I trusted myself to be judicious with it, yes, I think. otherwise it's just like every other technology you can turn technology into a drug. Most people turn problems into a drug.

If you think about it, I don't think of the most, the biggest drug on the planet is not cocaine. It's not pot. It's not, you know, heroin. It's problems. Because the deepest fear everybody has is they're not enough. I've never met anybody who had some context didn't feel like they weren't rich enough, smart enough, lovely enough, humorous enough, funny enough, smart enough, whatever it would be for someone they care about. You may not feel it now.

field at some point. And then so that feeling of not enough leads to feeling like you won't be loved. And I think those two fears are so strong in human beings that they dominate people. Most people create a story about why they're not where they want to be. And it becomes like the wall that protects them, but the wall that protects them and imprisons them. And so I look at, I look at these things and say, I don't want to, I don't want to become a dopamine machine where I'm just making myself feel good. I think one of the secrets to life in my opinion is, like most people that don't win the game of life because number one, they don't know what the goal of the game is. They've never decided what their purpose is, right? So if you don't know the goal of the game,

how are you going to win? The second problem that they have is they don't know what the goal of the game is, but they got lots of rules. I can't do this. I must do that. And the third problem is their rules are often in conflict. They were taught, look before you leap. They were also taught he who has a loss. So, you know, how do I make a decision, right? Another one is you've got to deal with other human beings that have different rules, right, if you're going to succeed in this life. And so you've got to deal with that. Another one is most people take things so heavy. The people that I think succeed in life, they know the goal of the game, at least for now, the purpose of what they're about. They have decided there are some rules that they're going to do.

Something else is different is, and this relates to your dopamine questions, why I was triggered to tell you this, is in life, you can do the right thing and get pain. And you do the wrong thing and get pleasure. So only a smart person learns to train themselves to give myself pleasure when I really do what I believe as well, not what everybody else gives me accolades for, like AIs, like these AIs today, they're absurd. You know, they make you like you're the greatest person in the world, no matter what you say. That's the stupidest thing in the world. And if I do something that I know is wrong, even if the world doesn't punish me, I give myself that hit. And so my only concern with the dopamine side would be if it got abused. And I don't think

abuse it, but I'd have to think of that one through because it would certainly be tempting once you're in it. I got this for my son for Christmas, actually. It's the Claude, you're absolutely right, sticker. Just a little reminder that, yeah, you can't fall into that AI trap. It's a total stick of fat process, and that's why I'm reading about these women that are all having relationships now because they're affirmed constantly. Their AI listens to them, right? It affirms them continuously. And what do I need a man for, right? That's part of what we're dealing with here. Salim, why you jump in?

That's the slippery slope. Tony, you've been coaching millions of people over decades, right? After kind of looking back over that time, are you more optimistic about the world or less in the transformation you've seen at a zeitguess level? Because there's almost nobody in the world that can comment on this and the trajectory as you've seen over those decades. It's my 49th year. I'm just beginning.

It's almost 50 years it blows my mind. Of course, I started when I was three. You understand, right? I am more optimistic, but I'm, you know, Peter and I are dear friends and partners in several businesses, and I'm not as optimistic as Peter is about things sometimes. We tease back to the force. But I think, here's what I think about optimism. I think, I'm realistic. Like, I don't think you should go to your garden and chant, there's no weeds, there's no weeds, there's no weeds, and when there are weeds are there, I've got to see the weeds and rip them out,

right? So I don't think this is a smooth transition to the future. I think, as I've already said, I think there's going to be some bumpy parts of the road, but that's part of our own growth, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually as a society. But I am more optimistic, and I think optimism is the right route. It's like, I don't know if you read, learned optimism years ago, I'm sure you did in Seldig's book, but, you know, the great thing I found out of that book

was he talked about how pessimists are always more accurate about their performance than optimists. They always are much more accurate in the description of how they perform. Optimists always think they perform better than they have. But because the optimist thinks they've done better, they do it again and again. And they keep going and so they tend to succeed.

So I think if you had to pick one you've got to be optimistic and then secondly I would say here's what I am optimistic about. I'm optimistic as I look at not just the last 50 years but when I study a thousand years of Roman history

or 500 years of Anglo-American history and I see the cycles and I'm very optimistic that the kids of today and I'm calling people kids that are in their 40s which probably might be insulting to them that's not meant to be

I'm just 66 in a few weeks here, so I feel a little differently about it now. But those, in other words, millennials and Z, I think they're the next heroes of our society. I'm extremely optimistic that the things we're going to face, they are going to be the ones that actually step up and help us through that transition in an effective way. Just as going back just one century, let's say, the flappers became, you know, the greatest American generation. We call them the great generation. So they're going to face significant challenges, and I think they're going to grow as a result. and I think we're going to have a new spring time, but we're not going to get to spring without going through winter.

And people think we're in winter right now. I would argue we're in winter, but we're not in the strongest part of winter. The strongest part of winter is when we get the kind of technological jolt that happens if we've got a serious cyber war with China. We have a cyber war already, obviously, some certain things that can push us to have to look at things in a different way. I think those things are coming, and technology is going to push those. And I think internally, these job losses,

that are already starting to occur, that can become part of that push as well. So there's a long answer to say, in my 50 years of service, almost, 49, I am more confident today because I've seen long-term patterns, not just short-term, and I'm also because what's available today

to the average human being, think about it. We live the greatest pharaohs in the world. What would they have given to be able to fly from one part of the world to another in a few hours that we bitch about when it takes an extra hour or two? You know, what would they do for our actual bath room. Better yet, could they spend $100 million for a movie to entertain them for two hours

and have people backed up around the line where we're paying $10 for, you know, a hundred movies available right there on your TV set? People's quality of life today is greater than the pharaohs, and it's going to become even greater. The question is, can we get our human psychology to keep up with the technological advances? That's the, I think that's the final question that we'll face. The good news here, Tony, is that the same technology that's giving us these problems allows us to scale the solutions. That's right. And we just need to get more people focused on solutions. So we've got about five minutes left.

Maybe last question from you, Alex. Yeah. I'd be curious maybe to press one more time, try one more time, Tony, on the contrarian question, which is, what belief do you have that you think no one else in the world does? I just don't think I'm that unique. I appreciate the question, but I just, I think multiple people that's, I'll give you a core belief that I have that not everybody has, it's a core belief. And I develop this belief, maybe out of necessity. I don't know how you want to look at it.

But I really believe that life is always happening for us, not to us, even though it looks like it's happening to us. And I believe that because I've lived long enough, and I'm sure you have as well, Alex, if you look back at your life or any of you, how many of you've had an experience in your life five, ten, fifteen years ago or more that when it was, was happening, it felt like the worst thing that happened in your life. You'd never want to go through it again. You never want anybody you care about to go through with it. But five, 10, 15 years later, with the power of perspective, you look back and go, man, I see the universe or God's value in that, that that made me

so much stronger, it made me care more, or it made me more sensitive to this. I haven't been able to anything that I couldn't find that with when I gave it my focus. But of course, if you think life's happening to you, that's all you find. And I think that frees me up from, from this punishment cycle that people have for themselves, or they think God is doing to them, or the universe, or the world, it frees me from the, you know, somebody is, you know, pushing me down

and I'm, the systems against me. It frees me from all that because I look at all as a worthy opponent. You know, all that is a worthy opponent. It's designed so that I become more so that I can give more, so my life has more meaning while I'm here and hopefully when I'm gone.

Tell me about the Time to Rise event coming up and how do people find out about it? this since, I did this since COVID. It's like, people were trapped at home and I was like, how do we help people in the middle of all this? And I said, I'm going to do a seminar. I'm going to do two hours, three hours. I said, no, let's do three days. Let's do about two and a half, three hours a day. We make it enough that it doesn't take their whole day, but it's like going to a great movie, but your life transforms. And what we do is we'll have over a million people every year from virtually every country in the world. And it's coming up, I believe it's January 29th through

the 31st. And it's 2 p.m. Eastern, they have people joining fall over the earth. And what we do is we walk people through the process of making some of these changes. And at night, they're part of a community of a million or more people, literally all over the earth, and people put up videos showing the assignment I gave them and how they change. And you see this community over three days come together and transform. So there's zero charge for it. It's not partially free. It's totally free. And all they got to do is go to Time to Rise Summit. Time to Rise Summit.com and register, and they can join us. And if they're doing it at home, they can do it with their family. if they're doing it at the office, they might want to, it's fun to do with some of your friends.

It's a very fun process, but it'll show you how to increase your energy. It'll show you how to get clear what you really want. It'll show you how to deal with the obstacles. It'll show you how to retool yourself in the areas that matter most, your body, your motion, your relationships, your finances, just in three days. And it gives people momentum. Instead of the first of the year, by the time we do this, we always do this the third week, because people set their news resolutions those that actually even do it anymore.

And usually by that time, they've already broken them. And resolutions don't do it. You need a plan and a strategy, and you need a community to support you. And so I've made it so you don't have to travel. You don't have any cost. It's just our way of trying to see how we can help a million or more people each year. And I'm excited to do it. So if you go to Time to Rise Summit.com, and I'll see you on January 29th through 31st

and love to serve anybody who comes. I love you, brother. Thank you for all that you do in the world. Just grateful and can't wait for Tony A.I. I think it's one of the most important conversations we had here. Well, Peter A.I. and all of you, and I really, I mean, it's a. sincerely, you guys are doing amazing work, and I love how your podcast has grown like crazy.

I know friends over in other countries that watch you guys religiously. So thank you for all your contributing. I appreciate it so much. Greatful. Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Salim. Dave. Thank you.

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