Moore Style - Orgasm Anxiety, Ethical Non Monogamy and Chronic Pain with Jessica Graham

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

On this week’s episode we have the knowledgeable and talented, Jessica Graham of Wild Awakening! This beautiful conversation includes topics such as: orgasm anxiety and how to start healing it, ethical non monogamy, infidelity and the roots of chronic pain.   I honestly believe everyone could gain something from listening to this episode and getting to know Jessica Graham’s teachings a bit more! Let me know what you think of this episode on Instagram, see you next week.   In this week’s episode, we discuss: [1:19] About Jessica Graham [3:09] What brought Jessica into this line of work [9:32] What inspired Jessica’s book  [14:41] Traditional relationships and sex  [22:46] What is ethical non monogamy?  [31:44] Orgasm anxiety [41:12] Chronic pain  [53:10] Jessica’s favorite date    Connect with Jessica:  Website Facebook Instagram   Good Sex: Getting Off without Checking Out Book Freebie: Mindful Sex Meditation

Hi, everyone. I'm your host, Celeste Moore, and you are listening to the Down and Dirty podcast, aka the Double D's of dating. This is a podcast for navigating the ins and outs of modern midlife dating. Here, we will discuss the challenges that men and women face in today's dating world. Like many industries, this one is forever changing, and I believe this platform will help those who need or want it. Today, it is the best time to take control of your desired outcome, whether it is a marriage, significant other, life partner, or just to gain the confidence in dating once again. Every other week, we will dive in and talk about different viewpoints that seem to be challenges in today's dating arena. So let's get into today's episode.

I'd like to welcome everybody to another episode of the Down and Dirty podcast. And as always, I am your host Celeste Moore. Today, I'm super excited and honored to be able to speak to my guest today, Jessica Graham. But before I dive into today's episode, I would love to introduce her. So Jessica Graham is a trauma resolution guide specializing in complex developmental trauma. She's also a meditation teacher, sex relationship, and spiritual guide for couples and individuals, international speaker, and author of Good Sex, Getting Off Without Checking Out, which has been translated into several languages and is the bestseller in the Netherlands. Jessica is a certified Rebloom post-traumatic growth guide, a grief recovery specialist,

and is trained in brain spotting. She can be found on many apps, including Simple Habit, Wise at Work, Mjoy, Breathe, and Sanity and Self. Jessica has offered workshops at various centers internationally, including Esalen Institute, and has been interviewed, quoted for such publications as Women's Health Magazine, bustle goop lions roar the lily health magazine and more they're also included in the great courses masters of mindfulness in addition to this jessica is an award-winning actor and filmmaker their upcoming book of essays and poems will be released by north atlantic book in spring of

2024 so again thank you so much jessica for being on today's show i really really appreciate it and And I feel that you have a plethora of knowledge that is relevant to this audience here today. Thank you so much for having me, Celeste. You read my whole bio. I feel like all like filled up. Thank you. Yes. Ego boost there for a second.

Well, you should. That's some great work. You should be super proud. I mean, that's amazing. I guess for me, not knowing you're not that we have to know everything about you and your whole history, but I would love to know is, was there a particular reason, some event in your life that directed you to this line of work that you're in? Yes. It's probably a three podcast question, but I won't, I won't do it that way. So, you know, I, I grew up in the eighties. I'm

on the very end of Gen X with wonderful and terrible parents. You know, I like to say they were beautiful and terrible wolves that raised me. And, you know, there was mental illness, there was addiction, there was abuse of various kinds. And so I ultimately was on my own really young. I was on my own pretty much at 14, more or less. And I had to grow up quickly and I had to find ways to kind of function, even though I had experienced complex trauma and was continuing to as a, as a teenager. So I found ways that ultimately were destructive things like drugs and alcohol, which honestly were very helpful at the time, you know, like really saved me because I didn't have another option at that time that was easily accessible. But as I got older and

wanted to begin to have better relationships because that's a big place where my trauma and my addictive behaviors showed up in my relationships and eventually it reached this point where it was time for some changes to happen and you could call it a rock bottom but it's also like that's the moment of transformation if you know a moment of grace allows for it or if you know, you have a few people pulling for you or some combination. And so through lots of therapy and through group support and all kinds of different things, I went from someone who exhibited very classically when it came to a PTSD response to someone who really doesn't. And I'm not going to say that it's not a lifelong journey because it is, but it really can change.

And I saw my nervous system change. I saw my relationships change, saw my sex life change. I saw my career change as a result of addressing these deep woundings, these deep layers of imprint. And, you know, my mom actually taught me meditation when I was very little. So there was this part of me that was really connected to my spirituality and my experience of God at this very young age. and I got to reconnect in a new way when I got older.

And so really grateful for that introduction. And, you know, she and I continue to connect in that. I'm actually going to be teaching a mindfulness workshop at her flower farm in a couple of months. So, you know, things can heal, things can shift and even the things that feel impossible. And so I just really became, I would say, I was called to share it.

I'm a filmmaker and an actor. I model like I'm that's what I've done in my life before and that's what I thought I would do and this all kind of came to me as a result of the healing work and the sexuality piece you know a big part of that was I stopped drinking and then okay what is my sexuality as this person that doesn't drink and then I got really into meditation it's like whoa what is my sexuality and my sexual expression when I can be really truly present and that's where the that's where the book came from. That's amazing. Yeah. It's sometimes it takes, I mean, there's so many parts of your life that ring true for me and things that I feel like a lot of people have different

areas of trauma in the experience. And yes, at some point in your life, you go to self-destruction before you realize, Oh, maybe this isn't working out. Maybe this isn't the best thing for me and my relationships. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's different for different people. One thing that I have learned is that you know I used to wonder like why why have I been able to change so much and other people I know haven't and like they're still in it and in my you know in my research for the book I'm reading now for one of the essays you know I just reading the the science the statistics and studies on if you have even one caregiver or one adult in your life as a child who's like really like I got you like and you're you're good and you're a lovable and you're

deserving of kindness that it can make all the difference and so I kind of went through while writing this essay and looked at all those little glimmers throughout my life my young life where there there were people who really saw me and really loved me and wanted the best for me and I I think having that is why I'm sitting here today like having those people who are really just like angels like some of whom I'll never see again some of whom I'm still in touch with who um kind of showed me that I deserve to be here. Yeah. That's special. You know, that a lot of, a lot of children don't have that. They don't have that in their parents. And I always say, you know, just to reference really quick, but I am a only parent for my daughter. And so

I think there's such a pressure to, I mean, I love this girl more than anything in the, in the possible world. Like I had no idea, but there's such a, almost like this is it for her. So let me be really fucking amazing for her, you know? And when I fall short, it's like, shit, you know, but I think that's, I think that's every parent, but you know, to say that you had people in your life and at moments that healthy, unconditional love, and yes, you deserve to have that. That's, that's special. Yeah. I know we should all have that, but yeah, absolutely. Well, and thanks for sharing your story. I can already tell that you, you're, you got a lucky kid. You seem like someone who would be a really good mom.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think so. I take pride and joy in it, even though it's the hardest job in the world, but, but anyways, moving forward. So when did you write this book? And I know that it's mostly about, you know, sexual awakening and basically, you know, good sex. Yeah. Yeah. Was this something you discovered after you decided to stop drinking? Yes. So I always, I have to say, like, I am a rare specimen in that I have relatively low levels of sexual trauma. And I'm not going to say I have none and there's different versions of what that can be. Like for folks that don't know what emotional incest is, look it up. It will change your life. If you heal that, if you, if you don't know you have it and you heal it, but I have

relatively low sexual trauma and I was raised in a very sex positive household pretty much. And so I was like the go-to person as a teenager for other teenagers, for their kids who were like, you know I want to give my boyfriend a blow job but I don't know how can you tell me or like I'm pregnant I don't know what to do or you know so on so forth like I was like the kid in sex ed on Netflix and um like I didn't charge but yeah they could buy they give me a beer or something um yeah so it was always like an interest of mine as was spirituality even though I kind of you know I got off kilter though interestingly I would find myself every so often in a church and it wouldn't even matter what denomination and I wasn't raised religious but I would find myself in a church just

sitting there like what am I doing here but this feels really good just the silence and the contemplative like experience so it was like both of those things were in me and yes when I got sober I started to like wake up to these parts of myself again and I was in a relationship where I really wanted to bring the mindfulness and spirituality aspect into our sex life. And it just wasn't something that that person was interested in. And so when that relationship ultimately ended and the next relationship I got into, I got to see who I had become as a result of really diving into meditation and as a result of really doing deep healing work. And it was like a completely different experience. It was like, you know, everything from like open eye orgasms

to like merging with the universe together to blah blah blah right and also just fun good wild sex yeah and laughing and have fun and you know play which I think good sex wants to be a lot of the time we want it to be a kind of it's like a it's a way to play it's a way to have fun and that came in and so you know like that that led to me writing articles for a blog which ultimately is how I ended up writing a book because the at that time when you searched mindful sex I was like the first thing to pop up and I think I'm still somewhere in that first page but at that time there was not anything else there was like pretty much nothing else and what made my writing different was that I was very sort of casual laid back very secular very like very

sex positive not like oh there's this one way to have mindful sex and it involves monogamy and it It involves, you know, breathing and sink. It involves like, you know, candles and incense, which is great. And I always say like, that's wonderful, all of those things. But I gave different examples of how you might express in a mindful way that didn't necessarily fit into this traditional more, I would say, well, yeah, I don't, I don't want to put a judgment on it, but just a less traditional way, right? I'll just say less traditional way.

so they found me and they came to me and asked me to write the book and that's kind of what I mean when I say a calling because I people always told me I was a writer but I didn't really want to be I was like no I'm an actor I do this other thing and so they came to me and then the book the book went from there and I basically wrote right up to the point where I could write and that was in that book came ultimately came out in I think 2017 and then I had a major health crisis or really just a continuation of a crisis that I was in more acceptance of and hospital, a lot of stuff like that, which led me to really kind of going into a cave of sorts and ultimately will lead to this next book. But yeah, so it came out and then translations came out. The Czech translation just

came out, actually. I saw that. You were so excited. I saw how you opened the box with your Yeah. Yeah. That's very me. You're like, this is how I'm going to do this. That's super, you know what? I I'm such a advocate on, you know, people really being happy in their sex life. And I'm not traditional in any shape or form. Well, I don't think I'm traditional and I don't think you have to be. And there's just this whole, you know, world of like, you have to have like you said monogamous relationships you have to be with one person you have to you know there's all of these like little boxes and I feel that so many more people today are really open about no that doesn't work for me and maybe it's too late like I have you

know maybe it's too late in a marriage or a relationship to to you know it can it's possible I think I don't know maybe you've experienced this more where it can work when someone changes their mind, right? Oh, maybe I want to do this or try this. And you know, what has your experience been with that? Yeah, I think it's absolutely possible. And just to kind of go back just for a moment to this idea of traditional, because I want to be clear that like, there is really no traditional and there is no normal and everybody is unique, right? So really when I speak of mindful sex and traditional, what I mean is there is an idea of spiritual sex. And that's actually kind of what I was trying to get at there was like traditional spiritual sex says blah, blah, blah.

And I guess that comes, that can come up in any sort of sex, but specifically in that realm of like mindful must mean X, Y, Z. And so within a, in a partnership, certainly, certainly one person can change. And they, if the, if the partnership has foundation and if they have good communication skills, and they have support, you know, from therapists and coaches and, you know, folks who can who can really hold the relationship with them, I think it's absolutely possible. I think if they're dedicated to healing their own trauma, you know, all of this, right, can lead to people being able to grow together. If we don't have good communication skills, if we are projecting on our partner, because we have all this unresolved trauma, if we don't have support of therapists

or community or coaches or whatever it is, then it becomes a lot harder to not only to change within the relationship, because that takes a lot of bravery, but also to allow for our partner to change and to allow for ourselves to be changed through our partner's transformation and vice versa, ultimately. So I think it does take a fair amount of foundational skills in relationship to be able to change together when it comes to something big, like I want to be polyamorous or something big, like I have a completely different way I want to express sexually now, or how I want to express my gender. These sorts of things can be very challenging if we don't have a lot of those tools and support. And then of course, you know, there's times that we do have

all those tools and support and we are like really on top of our own you know mental wellness and psychological wellness and we still grow apart yeah yeah it happens it happens and how how we grow apart it's like do we do it in a in a in a way that's kind and loving or do we do it like do we destroy our lives well you know i guess it depends right right that's a a really interesting way of looking at it because I don't think a lot of us probably look that deep right we're like okay well we want to explore or I want to explore xyz and you should be fine with it but yeah that doesn't necessarily work all the time it can be really scary when your partner changes you know because that fear of abandonment runs so deep and in in most of us you know most of us have some

version of it and I know for me like I when I was younger I was so dedicated to my growth and my evolution that I could sometimes be like a bull in a china shop when it came to my relationships because I would just be like I'm doing this now no this is my truth now no I need to do this and part of me knew like oh you're experimenting or trying things and you're growing and changing but I would use language that was very like it is this way now and we must do this and you know that's not really all that relational, let's say. And so, you know, older and wiser learn to be kind in and, and mindful and conscious in the way that I, you know, express these changes. Well, yeah, as you said, you know, as you grew, you were growing up, you were trying this and

trying that, but you know, how maybe we're in our forties and we're like, okay, now I'm actually comfortable with saying and feeling what I actually want. And I think that's a lot of when we talk about, or that, you know, quotation traditional relationship is we're supposed to fit in this box. So we kind of, okay, let's please our parents. Let's please our grandparents or whatever it is. And then, you know, 20 years later, you're like, okay, well, if I would have learned a little bit more about what I want or what I like, maybe I wouldn't be in this situation, but ultimately I think that you need to be happy and you need to, I hate to say it, but like with or without, and hopefully like you set a good foundation and good communication will, you'll

be able to figure that out. Yeah. And I would also say that like, you know, this idea that, you know plenty of others have said this but this idea that a success in a relationship means staying together forever because a successful relationship could be one night a successful relationship could be one year it could be a lifetime like it doesn't that how we show up and how intimate and present we're willing to be and when I say intimate I'm talking like in all the ways in all those awkward strange like oh I want to peel my skin off because I feel so uncomfortable right now but i'm gonna let this person see me in this moment of struggle or whatever it is right intimacy is so uncomfortable at times but like that the measure of success is

not how long you stay together and you know there's also the whole cultural there's so many different cultural ways of approaching relationship and ways in which religion impacts how we how we look at relationship. And so being able like, yeah, to be in our forties and be like, what, what do I actually want? And I have to say me, like I've been single for coming up on two years and it's amazing. I am so into it. And I'm like, nah, like I'm good. Like if there's going to be someone in my life, like in a like more permanent way, like they have to be like the biggest cherry on top because life is already so amazing. That's awesome. Is this your first time that you've been single for a minute? I mean, honestly, it's, it's, it's really kind of the first time

ever. I started really being in relationships when I was 14 and like pretty serious relationships because, you know, serious, I was like on my own more or less. So it was like that. And I really was always, there was always someone or some, some ones, like there were people and it wasn't until, you know I got leading up to getting sober that I I intentionally was single for a year but I gotta tell you like as soon as that year was over I was in a relationship and and yeah so pretty much my whole my whole life that's something that I had to like reckon with like it's great I'm not I don't judge the fact that I really preferred to be in relationship but I also know that there was certain healing that allowed me to be able to step out of that. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.

Being single and being comfortable and loving yourself and doing the things that you want to do is awesome. It's great. Yeah. I mean, everybody keeps pushing, you know, let's, you gotta, you gotta be in another relationship. You gotta, I'm like, okay, give me a minute. Let me do my thing and then we'll address this in a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Same. That's amazing. You sent over a couple like topics, but you could talk about, and I don't think I've ever heard. Wait, could you explain to me before I go into that? I, one more, one more thing that I was really interested in. Well, multiple things, but what is ethical non-monogamy? Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And what does that mean to you and how you describe it? Yeah. So I'm by no means an expert on non-monogamy.

If you want one, Dedeker Winston, she wrote Smart Girl's Guide to Polyamory, and she has a book coming up with her podcast partners called Multi-Amory. And she's kind of the expert, one of the experts that I would recommend. But I certainly have a lot of personal experience and some of my clients. So I work with them on it as well. So ethical non-monogamy can look like a lot of different things for different relationships because there's so many different versions of what non-monogamy is, but the defining, like the word is ethical, meaning there's not lying happening. There's not intentional harming of others happening. And that includes if you're in a like a partnership that includes your partner, but it also includes the other people that come

into the relationship, whether that's someone you're dating as a couple, whether that's someone that, you know, your partner's dating or you're dating, treating that person like a person, because what can happen is it's like, Ooh, we want to like spice things up. So we're going to like what they, what they call go unicorn hunting, finding, finding that generally is a woman who is interested in both men and women and is interested in dating a couple. So there can to be this thing of kind of objectifying that person. So that's another place where we want to be ethical when it comes to non-monogamy. There's a lot of non-ethical non-monogamy in the form of infidelity, in the form of cheating in quote unquote monogamous relationships.

That's happening all the time. I mean, I don't know the current stats, but they were high not that long ago so sure they still are and that's like that's a kind of toxic monogamy where we push down parts of ourselves we avoid parts of ourselves we pretend that we're not still sexual beings just because we've chosen to be in a monogamous relationship and eventually because of lack of communication and expression and when i say expression i don't mean having sex with other people. I just mean allowing these parts of us to exist. That can lead to cheating. That can lead to infidelity. And also what it can lead to is like, oh, I have these feelings about John at work and I got all these chemicals in my body. I don't know they're chemicals. I just think I'm

in love with John at work. But actually it's just what in the ethical non-monogamy community we call new relationship energy or NRE, which makes you actually, and I use this word for, I'm actually using this word. It makes you a little crazy. It makes you a little unwell mentally in the same way that doing cocaine does. Wow. You got to get that next hit. You got to get that next hit. You got to get the dopamine, get the serotonin, these love and lust chemicals. And so you will, people will blow up their entire lives and hurt a lot of people based on that feeling. And then find out like six months later, Oh wow. I don't even really like John from the office. Like I was just all that. And then I want to go, I want my, I want my partner back. Right. That can happen. And so

there's a lot of examples of non-ethical non-monogamy. And I think it's very cool that it's becoming more and more acceptable to explore non-monogamy and it's becoming more commonplace with younger generations, which I think is really cool. And I'm not like, hey, everyone should be non-monogamous. There are people who are like, this is the way. I don't believe that. I think monogamy is wonderful. And I have had many periods of monogamy in my life. It's just, am I locked in to the traditional idea to the one box of this is what relationships are supposed to be? Or am I kind of open to the endless possibilities of what they can be and less ways what a family can be, what love can be. And so again, coming back

to like ethical non-monogamy, it's, am I honest with myself? Am I honest with the other people involved? Am I, do I have a mentality of do no harm? Am I honoring the agreements I make with my partners? Am I practicing safer sex and disclosing any STIs and protecting myself and my partners? Am I, you know, am I treating everybody with the care and respect that they deserve? And am I willing to talk about it a lot? Because non-monogamy done well requires a lot of conversation. So if you're someone who doesn't like sitting and having long conversations about relationship stuff, as one of my exes used to call it, it's not going to work for you. You know, it's not going to work. Yeah. Yeah. I have really good friends of mine who one is very interested

in not being monogamous anymore. And one it's like, okay, I'll try it. It's fun for a minute, but then like I'm done. And so right on the part that they were able to do what they needed to do and experiment. And then it's kind of been an issue. It's kind of, you know, so yeah. And I think some of it was non-ethical in the beginning. And I think that's kind of, if you look at it as a whole, that's where a lot of the pain and the distrust and the hurt comes from. So yeah, that kind of trauma, that betrayal trauma can be far reaching into a relationship and can make it really challenging to have, to have any sort of non-monogamy, including like, cause non-ethical non-monogamy could be like, we're allowed to flirt with other people. We're allowed to cuddle. We're

allowed to make out, but not like it can be so many different things, but in order to have any of those, or we're allowed to talk about who we have crushes on, like that could be a version of ethical non-monogamy. But if you're scared that your partner is going to step out of the relationship in a way that is, you know, is, is dishonest and hurtful, then it's going to be really hard to do that. And so, you know, I work with couples and a huge part of what we do is we do repair work. You know, we're repairing these, these fractures and these ruptures. And oftentimes, it simply requires being heard, knowing you've been heard, being validated, being empathized with, and then a meaningful repair taking place. And I've seen like what feel like miracles when I witnessed them many years old hurts, just like evaporating due to two people just really seeing and hearing each other and saying the words that they, they need to say. Yeah. And I love that you give that safe space, literally like zero judgment. You're here too. I think so many people, it's usually one or the other in a couple that's maybe a little more reserved or doesn't trust. And so I feel that I'm sure with you, they don't feel that at all.

and so that's such a great I mean that's got to make you feel so good right that you can allow that which is like you said when you were a teenager you were the go-to I love that that you use the sex ed I love that show it's phenomenal so good you reference that but that's so perfect yeah well thank you that's meaningful to me thank you yeah it is it is really rewarding to be able to to create that that safe space because so many people you know we don't learn how to be in relationships most of our parents teach us the opposite or a lot of the opposite of what to do. You know, we have movies and TV and songs that teach us about some version of what love is, which is not real. For the most part, we have, you know, we have we have

porn, which I have pros and cons about about it. But one of the cons is like this idea of what sex is, and being stuck in that and men in particular. And it's interesting, you know, I work with a lot of a lot of straight guys you know because they know they're not gonna be judged by me and they don't have anyone to talk to as i'm sure you experience in your work it's like a a revelation to be able to speak out loud this stuff and not be judged and be able to talk about the things that they really can't talk to anybody about so it's very rewarding very meaningful yeah yes yes i I definitely get that too. And I'm grateful. Like, Hey, if I can make someone's relationship better, if I can build that confidence, if I can give you some tools to take into the world and

that's, that's all I'm asking for. So I love it. There's another topic that, you know, I'm picking certain things that I I'm not well-versed in. And, um, I don't feel that I also feel that that's kind of my audience right now. And I know one of the things that you talk about and something literally i've never heard of is orgasm anxiety oh is yeah i just really quick is this gender more of a certain gender than another or is this not related at all actually not i think when i was i think earlier in my work i would have said it tends to be more women that are experiencing this um and particularly more you know people with vulvas and and clits and like that like we come in so many different ways right it's not like it's very

different from having a penis um the way we're aroused the way that we get off right it's it's much more complex and so i would would have said in the past you know it's primarily you know women people with vulvas, but I've learned that that's not the case. Men have just as much anxiety and it's oftentimes not the anxiety that one would think. It's oftentimes not, I'm going to come too quick. It's that I'm not going to, or it's going to take too long. That's the primary thing because I don't do a huge amount of this, but sometimes, you know, based on like the masters of mindfulness work and my book, like I'll have someone come and we'll do a short container of sessions just to work on that issue. And I've had men come just to work on that particular issue and

we work on it. And generally there's some sort of emotional psychological thing going on and we work through that. And then it's not an issue anymore. And also bringing in mindfulness of sensation and being able to really feel what's happening and letting go of the anxiety. So the anxiety piece comes up for any gender and it's basically the, I'm not going to be able to come or I'm going to come too fast, or it could be the way that I come, they're not going to like, or the way that I taste they're not going to like, or the sounds that I make. So all of these things can kind of come together to create this orgasm anxiety. And primarily I work with it around the first two that I'm not going to be able to, or I'm going to too quickly. And a big part of it is becoming

present with our own bodies and with our own minds, because we'll create that habit of mind, which will inform what our body does. And when we start to get curious about the way the mind is operating and kind of get some distance from it, bring some mindful tools, mindfulness tools into it, then we're not enslaved to those thoughts. And then we can start to explore the actual sensations. And so if someone's like, I just get in my head thinking about how I'm not going to come and they don't even want to be doing this. One of the tools that I love giving people is like so you can ask your partner to say like I love doing this like I love going down on you and I want to keep doing it and it's okay if you come or you don't come I just love

doing it right to know if you get that affirmation and if that feels out of reach like if it feels like too much to ask for that because it actually is it not it's not too much but for yourself like it can feel really scary to really ask for what you want at that level you can say it inside your own mind. They love doing this. Like they're so into it. They love me, whatever it is. Now, if you're with someone who doesn't love doing it, whatever it is, like that's okay. We all get to decide what we want to do and don't want to do. But personally, you know, that would, if someone wasn't interested in my pleasure, that would be something that would be a deal breaker. Right. That's a deal breaker for sure. So working with the mind and working with the body and

learning to identify that anxiety in in the mind body system and then you know beginning to work with it one of the first exercises I tend to give people is a mindful masturbation exercise where you know you're just kind of putting aside any toys any porn any props and other than like comfortable position and maybe lube if that's some which I recommend for everyone and you're just getting present with your body and you may not even touch your genitals it may just be like exploring your body in other ways. And you're just focusing on what feels good, focusing on pleasure and noticing what feels good, what doesn't feel good. And then really just like a meditation on your breath or a meditation on a candle, your meditation is on the sensations of pleasure

and keep working with that. And over time that can really sensitize you and you can bring that into relationship with partner as well that's so powerful especially and I especially for women and I I say this and I and I know that it's not gender specific but I do feel that as women we very are self-critical in our head and it's so hard to be in that position of just feeling and without 20 other things going on in her head and like you said you can live with that story oh he's not gonna like the way it tastes or she's not gonna you know uh or yeah and it's like that that story that is like ingrained and is it because we're pleasers at heart is that something like the way that we are raised to to always you know

think of others not yourself like you know it's so you know I mean there's probably a million answers to that but it's so powerful that you just said you know those couple tools one just taking everything away and just exploring your body your breath and also flipping the scripts right oh they like to do this yeah this is totally hot for them so yeah Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the learning to communicate pieces is one of the most important parts of, of, you know, of good sex is being able to, to know what you want to communicate with yourself and to be able to communicate with your partner. And so this idea of tuning into your own body in this way, it teaches you to be in deeper communication with yourself and with your own pleasure. And, and yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, we live in a patriarchal society and I love me some men, but we, you know, we have a long history of, of, you know, women being subservient. being subjugated like being you know being terribly mistreated and then you know you have you have our culture in this country you know it's like sex sex sex and then don't talk about sex it's like this weird combination of glorification and like shrinking a bit away

and then there's you know there's religion and I have a very positive relationship with my own faith, but religion has really done a number specifically, you know, well, all of them, when it comes to women's sexuality in particular, you have purity culture and all. I do some work with people who've been women who have experienced the trauma of purity culture. And it's like the boys are getting a real different message than the girls. And it's so incredibly, incredibly harmful and i have the um the really the honor and the privilege of of being part of a community a christian community where most of the people there are coming from serious religious trauma so it's a very very liberal very you know it's it's a it's probably the only church probably in most of the

world that i could go to and feel you know there's not a lot of them but um you know all these people who come from that and who are reawakening to who they can be sexually and otherwise without that like weight of like, you are going to hell. Right. That big guilt. It's so imposing. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. I love that. I think, I think it's like you said, there's this, you know, we're so sex, sex, sex, right. All the commercials, everything's sexualized. And then, yeah, don't talk about it though. And it's shame, shame, shame. So it's this dichotomy of like, okay, where do I really, what's going on? But I think being sex positive and hopefully being able to teach this, like you said, a new wave, new culture, the new generation that it's okay to

be who you are and like what you like and communication is definitely key. But I think being comfortable with that, you know, it is a big one and it takes, it takes work. I mean, And that's why, you know, getting support is good, you know, because again, nobody, nobody taught us. We didn't have a class in school, how to talk to your husband after, you know, he annoyed you for the 50th time that day, like, you know, not annoy your wife 50 times a day. I don't know. We don't, we don't get those, those, we don't learn those skills.

Yeah. We learned from our parents and like you said, mine weren't the best teachers either. So, you know, they were kids. So exactly. Right. I know that you also speak about chronic pain. Now, are you referring to one thing and specifically, or is it something that there's a couple, couple different types of chronic pain? Yeah. I mean, I'm somebody who like has things going on from my head to my toes. Um, and it's

cool. Like I've, I've been much better over recent years. I had a real shift in that. And then a dip after COVID, I finally got it last year and having an autoimmune disease and, and getting COVID not fun. And you know, the vaccines as well had a, had a pretty intense impact on my, on my immune system. So I've been building back and currently one of the medications I'm taking is like really working. So it's interesting to, to talk about an interesting, I'm writing on it right now. Like that's one of the main, actually the main focuses of this new book is chronic pain, chronic illness, trauma, neurodivergence, and then all the other stuff, spirituality, sexuality, but it's the focus is, is on chronic pain and illness. And so for me, I've experienced it in one way or another

since I was a kid and it was very normalized though. I didn't, it was just normal to be in pain and to have weird illnesses. And it wasn't until I was an adult and actually a boyfriend, this was after I got sober, a boyfriend was like, you're in pain all the time, aren't you? And I was like, yeah, I mean, isn't everyone like, and I was like not even 30 at the time, you know? And, and then over time and through being brought to my knees with, with one health crisis after another, I eventually not only accepted it within myself but kind of came out about it because I was very private about it I actually like went on a podcast interview that's focus was chronic pain and illness because they wanted to interview me about the book and I was like I'm not I'm not really

open to talking about my own like I just wasn't ready like it felt so vulnerable and as an actor and I I have I have had lost I would say lost opportunities or work due to people knowing that I haven't I'm and it's that's okay that's fine um I've never had a situation where I haven't been able to show up for an acting job because there's something there's the show must go on mentality that I got as a theater kid you know because I did theater at a young age um but yeah I was really private about it and coming out about it was a huge part of the healing it also showed me who my friends were, who are the people that really cared about me. Because when you can't leave the house and people have to come visit you while you're in your bed, that shows you who your

friends are. It really changes things. Which is fine. I get it. Illness is scary. Pain is scary. Death is scary. And being around any versions of that can feel really uncomfortable. People don't know what to say. They don't know how to be. And it's confronting. So I get it. I have a lot of compassion for it, but I've always just been comfortable around death and illness, not necessarily my own illness until, you know, whenever that was that I started to, I have no sense of time, but it wasn't that long ago. It was within the last decade that I really started addressing it more seriously. So yeah, it's certainly something that can impact one's relationship and one's sex life, depending on the types of pain. I've experienced a lot of

pelvic pain as one of my symptoms and that can really really affect how you interact with a partner and also being sick and in pain in a relationship requires both people or however many people are in the relationship to really day-to-day be working on the skills of showing up for that because it's not easy it's not easy and in my last relationship we had some moments of doing it well but a lot of moments of really not doing it well so it's something it's when you're dealing with chronic illness and chronic pain it really is a one day at a time thing and the cool thing about it is that it is a spiritual path into it unto itself because you are in touch with your humanity in a very particular way you're in touch with your

powerlessness with surrender with being in the present moment with finding joy and pleasure in the smallest things and beauty in the tiniest things and so I don't love that I deal with this and most of it is a direct result of trauma because we know now like through science that trauma adverse childhood experiences lead to a lot of the things that i have so you know we can also get an opportunity to have deeper healing of that trauma at the body level you know the cellular level at the nervous system level through really being with uh our our chronic conditions and and i include in chronic conditions you know anxiety and depression and even i don't i think neurodivergence is I only can call it a chronic condition because of the way society is set up

right like it's not set up to be supportive to different kinds of brains and so I don't actually think it's a chronic condition in the sense of it's something wrong but more it's like the way the world responds to it yeah no that was a great point you made because yeah that's that's a whole no no i i yeah i could go on for a long time you know i can't wait to read your book because i'm just gonna keep this super short because it's amazing how many things i am um and as i was doing research and and and um finding your works and stuff and you know i my sister and i have dealt with chronic pain for years and years and years and years and have had, you know, multiple surgeries. And, um, and, and she said to me the other day, you know, she's a PA. And so

she's like, I think I'm going to write a book and I think I'm going to write about our disease and I'm going to write about the way it's affected my life and the way it's like, you know, she just came to this very poignant part of her life. And, and she said something about the trauma. she said there's no other explanation and it's like she goes like pisses me off but I you know I'm not negating it but it's like so I really am excited to read your book and see your thoughts and and your you know because like you said that's very very vulnerable and it's a very, but a place that people will really resonate with you. And it's, there's not a lot out there, right? There's not a lot of people being vulnerable. And so thank you for sharing and

thank you for letting others, you know, learn from your story because that's, that's huge. Thank you, Celeste. I really appreciate that. And I'm excited to read your sister's book. I mean, I, we, it's so important that this stuff gets talked about and, you know, with, with so many people experiencing long COVID and the ongoing effects of COVID, I think there's going to be more and more people who are going to need that kind of content. Unfortunately, sorry to say, but like, it's a thing. And it's amazing to me, like, like there's still so many people that need to, to learn and understand that their childhood experiences,

their even adult experiences, but trauma leads to these changes at the nervous system level. Like it will change our immune system. It will change how we respond. It changes how we respond to stress. When you're in a chronic state of fight, flight, freeze, fawn, you are responding to everything from that place,

which is creating all this stress in the system, which is creating inflammation, which is creating all these chronic conditions and, you know, all the stomach issues and the joint issues. And like, I mean, there's just so many of these painful and life disrupting physical conditions that come from that. And, you know, that's another reason why I just, I'm so passionate about doing the trauma work and, you know, people don't have to suffer at that level. Now I, I am still dealing with physical, you know, consequences of the trauma, but the way I relate to it has really changed. And honestly, my symptoms have mostly the trend

is down the downward, the, the pain level has decreased and there's spikes. But when that happens, because I've really worked with the nervous system and worked with my mind, I'm not responding to it like, ah, which then is going to flare up everything again. And I get the response because I did that for years. But yeah, when we learned, when we somatically attend to the fight, flight, freeze, and when we work with modalities like EMDR or brain spotting, we're actually rewiring things so that these deep layers can heal. And even if we're still living with pain and illness, our relationship to them changes. And the pain reprocessing therapy, which I definitely use and borrow from is basically just mindfulness and positive safety reappraisal. And

then positive affect, we add these things together, which is really mindfulness and, you know, bringing in a new thought mindset work. But when we are able to interrupt those danger signals that create the pain, then we're not in that same amount of pain. Like it cured my, you know, my degenerative disc disease pain because I just worked with my mind and said, this is, I'm safe. I'm not actually in danger. There is a small bit of degeneration. I'm not, my back's not falling apart. I'm not going to die. I'm safe. And I just kept telling my mind that. And eventually I just don't respond to that. If it comes up, like, I don't even know what's coming up because I don't need to know. Like it's, it's going to take years before that's

an actual thing that I even need to think about. Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. You've done some amazing work too. Just like, and I think, I think that you're probably even more effective because you've experienced this yourself. And so I think, and I think that's probably, you know, what your, your clients or your say to you, I'm sure. Right. I mean, they just, someone that's been through something. It's almost like you don't have to get them to believe you too. That's the other thing. Oh, you're just crazy. Like, cause it's not physical wounds on my skin that you can actually see. And that's also another huge part of dealing with chronic pain. So medical gaslighting and for, for, you know, women in particular, it's outrageous. Yeah. I'm sorry for any of that,

that you've dealt with. It's like, nobody, nobody should be experiencing that. And yeah, it's, it's, I like to tell people, like, if you're seeing any healthcare professional and they make you feel that way, like they're working for you, fire their ass. Yeah. I know. Like mess up when they make you feel like you're just loop-de-loop so yeah so much to learn and so much to do right yes it's endless oh my gosh well I think what I would like probably like to finish off and one of the things I ask everybody is like what was one of your favorite dates and what was it oh boy it's controversial I love it I mean like it really is it's a controversial topic like okay should I say it yes okay if you're willing to share I'm with I'm willing I'm willing

I just know that it will I would like to preface this this perfect date by saying I am so left of left like I am I I was raised at so liberal okay and I am and I am that is me so just to put that out there I love it I'm very open about that and my and and I believe in common sense gun laws very much, very much believe in them. And what's going on here in our country, not great. Not great. And so all of that is important to say before I say one of my favorite dates was with a good friend who I dated a few times over the years as well. And he picked me up and took me to a shooting range and brought a huge bag of guns. And I got to shoot all these different kinds of guns. And then he took me out to like a wonderful meal. And then we rolled around together

at my house. Wow. So what was it about the guns that was so exhilarating for you? I mean, I, you know, I was raised with like, guns are bad. I got in a fight with another kid when I was like, I guess it was six when Dukakis was running against Bush senior. And I, yeah. And I got in a fight with a kid like Dukakis is better. And he said, no, Bush is better. And I said Bush likes guns and I was just like I was like very a political child actually but then like later in life I was in a film and they wanted me to do a little bit of shooting so I didn't look absolutely ridiculous I think I ended up looking ridiculous anyway but so they took me out to to shoot a few times and it it's so meditative you know it's like and I didn't even really meditate

seriously at that time, but it's like, because the part of you that's like, this is a, this is serious. This is a dangerous thing in my hands and the focus it takes and the relaxation that it takes. And I actually had no idea at what level it was meditative until sometime after that date, uh, I went and I did a full day of training one-on-one training with shoot firearms trainer, because I wanted to feel totally comfortable and like safe. And the way in which you need to like relax this part, but tighten this part, like the way you, every part of your body, there has to be this awareness, not just your hands and not just where you're looking, but like everything. And I was like, that day felt like a meditation training day. And then the actual experience, I mean,

there's just something you know there's there's a sense of power in it right yeah and I think that obviously power root of all evil we could say but also it's you know it's it's a it's a beautiful it can be a beautiful feeling when it's held with care and you know it just made for like a really hot fun day and and he was he was very he really kind of fit the very like gentleman role I was like you know everything was all the doors were opened and everything was paid for and I would You know, and I don't always get a lot of that because I'm not like, I don't present super feminine. And so I don't always get that kind of, but it's nice when it happens. It's nice when it happens and I'll do it.

I do it for others. You know, I come, I can kind of show up that way on a date too. But it was just the whole thing put together ended up. And I think we took some photos too. He's a photographer, like a very good, very well, very established photographer. and he uh he took pictures of me too which I love which is also I find like creatively so juicy which creative energy sexual energy they run together so all of those things combined guns photographs delicious food and a makeout session oh really good day sounds like a hot date

it was I know that was a long answer for your little like cap question but I love it I love that you like really went into it. That's your whole creative side. I love it. Thank you. Well, I would love everybody to know where they can purchase your existing book, Good Sex, Getting Off Without Checking Out and where people can find you. You can get it wherever books are sold. You can get it. You can go Amazon. You can go local bookstore. You can go library. Yeah. Any, any of these places you get used copies on Amazon. There's an audio book version, which I read. So that is there as well. If you read the reviews,

somebody said it's a Christian book against premarital sex in my Audible reviews. I don't have that many Audible reviews and that's one of them. And I'm like, this must be someone who just hates me, who knows me and hates me because it's obviously not that. It's like not at all that.

You're like, that is not my review. Not even a little bit that. Luckily someone else was like, no, it's not. But yeah, there's an audio book version. Currently, you can find me at yourwildawakening.com. JessicaGraham.com is under construction, but that'll, before the new book comes out, that'll be up. And then I'm pretty active on Instagram and I'm at JessicaClarkGraham on Instagram.

So that's a, that's a good place to find me and find my link tree and, you know, various stuff on me. Perfect. Well, everybody go get her book. I know you want to learn more about healthy, mindful sex and fun sex and crazy sex. thank you so much for coming on my show today and sharing your beautiful journey and your stories and how you help others. I think it's beautiful. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. Come and hang out with me on Instagram

at Celeste Moore image. Let me know your thoughts on today's episode, because I always love hearing from you all. You can find all the links and resources in the show notes of the episode on my website, CelesteMoore.com. Okay, that's all for now. I'll see you in the next episode. See you next time, friends.