Moore Style - Stepping Off The Relationship Escalator with Amy Gahran

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

Have you ever felt that a traditional relationship style wasn’t for you? Due to societal norms, many of us have been taught to find a partner, get married, move in together, and stay together until death. This relationship model does not work for everyone which is why this week we are exploring unconventional relationship styles with journalist and publisher Amy Gahran!  Through the lived experience of 1500 people, Amy’s book “Stepping Off The Relationship Escalator” gives insight into unconventional relationships and what exploring options outside of traditional relationships looks like. In this episode we dive deep into the 5 main themes of the traditional relationships escalator, why it is important to get clear on what you desire in relationships, and how you can begin to explore an unconventional relationship.  This is a must-listen for everyone, not just those desiring a different relationship style. Keep an open mind as you are gaining awareness in this informational episode and make sure to tag us on Instagram with your takeaways! In this week’s episode, we discuss: [01:20] About Amy Gahran [02:15] What led Amy to write a book about relationships [08:53] “Stepping Off The Relationship Escalator” includes the lived experience of 1500 people [11:55] What resources are available for people looking outside of traditional relationships? [14:03] Getting clear on what you desire in relationships [16:52] The hierarchy in traditional relationships [19:43] The 5 main themes of the traditional relationships escalator [29:18] Unconventional relationship styles are not just something that younger people are drawn to [33:40] We live in a very couple-centric society [35:37] Bringing awareness to unconventional relationships [37:11] “Other people’s hearts are not your crash test dummies” [43:58] Two of Amy’s favorite dates   Connect with Amy: Use promo code LIKEIT to save 10% on a signed copy of Amy’s Book! Website

Welcome to the down and dirty podcast, the ultimate guide to modern midlife dating. I'm your host Celeste Moore and I'm here to help you navigate the challenges of today's dating world. Think of me as your female version of hitch but better with over 16 years of experience as a certified image consultant and dating coach. I've got the inside scoop on what women want. In this podcast, we're diving deep into the world of healthy masculinity and modern dating. It's a fast changing industry. And here you'll find personal stories, expert insights

and candid conversations that will empower you to take control of your dating life. There's never been a better time to achieve your desired outcome, whether it's marriage, finding a significant other, securing a life partner or simply regaining your dating confidence. We're here with you twice a week to explore the viewpoints and challenges in today's dating arena that resonate with every man seeking dating success and love. So let's dive into today's episode. We've got an exciting discussion lined up for you. Get ready for the double D's of dating where dating dilemmas turn into dating triumph. welcome everybody today i have an amazing guest here i'm so excited to bring her on

she is a journalist and publisher and her name is amy garan she lives in colorado she is the author of stepping off the relationship escalator a research-based guide to intimate relationship diversity. It showcases the lived experiences of hundreds of people who choose to diverge from powerful social norms for intimate relationships, including alternatives to monogamy, cohabitation, the primacy of couplehood, and much more. Thank you, Amy, for being on today's show. I'm so excited to talk to you about your book. I'm happy to be here. So stepping off the relationship escalator I love this title but I would love for you well first before we get into that I would love to hear a little bit about your backstory how did you come to the you know the realization

that you needed to write a book about stepping off the relationship escalator well okay so I have always marched to a different drummer I asked my parents they'll tell it and I'm 57 years and for most of my life I assumed that a traditional relationship or more or less traditional was my only option if I really wanted love and respect and support and continuity of these things in my life it wasn't exactly necessarily something I thought consciously about it's just like if I want those things in my life it has to fit in this package and so I just did that and I had a number of relationships through my teens in my early 20s one of those relationships turned into somebody who I moved in with and then later married and we were together

as a romantic couple for oh about 18 years all together and which included legal marriage you know we rode that escalator all the way up to the top and we were on the top and we're like this isn't quite working, is it? And, you know, we did the normal thing. Oh, well, this must just be about us as individuals. You know, we're just not trying hard enough or we need to have better relationship skills within a marriage. Never thinking, is marriage even something either of us really want? Is living together something that either of us really want? Is exclusivity something that either of us really want? And the answer, you know, through a lot of hard conversations was, yeah, not so much. We love each other a lot. But, you know, other things that

are supposed to be part of that bundle, we realized they're actually optional. And in fact, they interfered with us having a really good relationship. So we fixed that. We got unmarried, very happily unmarried. He remains one of my dearest people to this day. He lives across the street from me. And we jumped off that escalator and it worked. It wasn't an easy process. There was a lot of discovery that went on, including discovering that, yeah, monogamy, not my thing. Not necessarily, you know, my former spouse's thing either. And so we ditched the monogamy. We started having relationships with other people. Then we started questioning other things. What I discovered over time was that I prefer running my life as an individual. I don't

want to live with a partner. I don't want to be married to them. I definitely don't want to merge finances with them. And I love having deep love and connection of all kinds in my life. That's a really high priority for me. And polyamory works for me. And my flavor of polyamory is called solo polyamory, which means I'm open to having more than one sexually or romantically intimate relationship at a time, which may get pretty deep and involve lots of commitment, but they ain't going to live with me. We are not sharing a bank account. And guess what? It works really well. I've been solo polyamorous for about 15 years now. And currently I have two wonderful sweethearts, Bill and Ted, my excellent adventure. And I mean, for six and seven years, respectively,

you know and this feels so natural and uncomplicated to me the process of realizing that I didn't have to go to the defaults that was complicated that was a lot of adventure but once I got there it's like oh no this is way easier than that escalator thing ever was for me other people traditional relationships work really well it's a good thing we have options and I realized oh wow wouldn't it be great if other people knew they had options that's how the book came about yeah I I absolutely love your story and I thank you for coming on and sharing it because I've always felt like a square peg in a round hole as well I've never been super traditional when it comes to relate the you know intimate relationships or you know romance relationships

I mean I did I got married I did the whole thing too but I always struggled with it so for me I don't know where I fall or how I am or there's no label for me I just I've been single for a very long time I'm happy with it I've had intimate relationships and along the way but yeah I'm happy and so you know I always felt like I was so non-traditional and it is looked at a little bit people look at me and well why aren't you with someone why aren't you tied down why aren't you married why aren't you this and all of these questions and I'm sure you've heard the same over years you know or maybe maybe maybe not but I know I have oh yeah I've heard them I tend to greet that with sustained eye contact and raucous laughter yeah yeah so do writing this book was

this a passion of yours because of your upbringing and the and the trials and tribulations you went through finding yourself and finding what worked for you partially yes except I've been a self-employed writer and editor for oh the better part of 30 years now and I'm good at my business and I did start initially writing about solo polyamory keeping my background is I write about like energy and technology and business and all that kind of stuff infrastructure okay geeky stuff not this mushy relationship stuff. But I realized that as I started, you know, adopting solo polyamory rather than just polyamory, that there wasn't a lot out there about it. So I started a blog about it, solopoly.net. And I wrote that for, for several years and it really seemed to resonate

with people. And when I wrote a blog post writing the relationship escalator or not back in, I think it was like 2012 or 2013. Boy, man, everybody was linking to that and talking about it. The self-employed and professional in me said, this looks like a business opportunity, which is not a bad thing. It indicates that there's a great hunger for information and resources, and I'm glad that I was able to help meet that need. Yeah, I was listening to another podcast you were on and you were talking about during this process. You briefly just talked about how people reached out to you with a survey. Yes. The basis of this book is a survey that I fielded from 2013 to about the middle of 2014, at which point I had to shut it off because I had way more

data than I can use. And it was an open-ended survey with several questions that asked some version of, do you think that your closest relationships are unconventional in some way? And if so, how? And people, I was floored by the response. I thought it'd be easy. I thought I would write, you know, I'd get a few hundred responses and I'd pick a couple dozen people to interview on BangZoom. I'd get the whole thing out in like six months. I had 300 responses in the first week. And in the survey, people were writing the equivalent of like 2,000, 2,500 word essays in their responses. Wow. After I uncurled from the fetal position, I said, this is a different project than what I imagined. And so I was finally able to learn how to analyze qualitative

data, which is this thing, and got the book together. The book features the lived experience of 1,500 people. I have 1,500 co-authors. I quote more than 300 of them in the book, And it goes over a wide range of how people diverge from that very powerful and weighty bundle of social norms that says how emotionally or sexually intimate relationships are supposed to work and what they're supposed to look like. That is the relationship escalator. That's what we're talking about. And it's not just about monogamy versus non-monogamy. It includes partners who don't want to merge their housing, their finances, people who might be aromantic or asexual, where those play little or no role in their relationships, people who choose not to have an ongoing sexually romantic intimate relationship or to have ones that are very central to their lives. Single by choice, solohood, it's a thing.

It's a really valuable thing. and we have lots of options and I was thrilled to be able to do this research and get the book out. It was a lot of work, but I think it was worth it. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of work. I think you were just like God smacked with how many people were responding to this. Yeah, I really was. I was not expecting that, but once I saw it, it's like, this is really important. I got to stick with this and needed i'm sure yeah because i i often wonder if people are looking say they are born and raised in traditional relationships and what society wants them to and they start thinking well maybe this isn't for me where are some resources or what other resources are out

there for someone to kind of i know there's a few dating sites that are very frank it's a very fragmented landscape yeah um and there's a reason for that the traditional relationships that ride that relationship escalator and just the very short version of that is it starts with you meet someone you think they're hot you you start dating you start having sex you fall in love you you stop dating other people and then you're moving together and you get married and marriage kids deaf to your part. It's a progression that has a very socially, not just socially popular, but venerated and privileged status. And with every status, there's stigma. That's the flip side of it. And that's, you know, that's when something is stigmatized, it's intrinsically

less visible and it's harder for people to find it. So that's why the resource landscape was so fragmented and difficult to find because the relationship escalator model was overwhelming everything that people had to say or write about relationships and other stuff was just kind of there around the edges and talking about the other options in relation to the traditional relationship the other there wasn't a lot that was just out there in its own right for itself So now there are starting to be a lot more resources. Some of them are online. Some of them are books.

I mean, for instance, just this month, two wonderful books were published about the whole single solo by choice point. We can talk about that later if you want. I am just so glad that I have lots of competition now. That's amazing. Well, it's great for people, like you said, that have limited resources to something that's very important to them or they're unsure of how to navigate it, because I'm sure that that's a learning curve in itself. Were you able, just curious, that your two sweethearts, was this

through a group that you already knew or existed? How did you find your sweethearts? I am very, very active in polyamorous community. There's a wonderful weekly polyamory meetup in the Boulder, Colorado area near, near where I live that I've been going to ever since it started about 15 years or so ago. And ironically, I've never met a partner through that, but that's not the point. Community is its own thing. Please, everybody out there do connect with community. Don't treat it as a dating pool. Bad idea. But I actually met my sweetheart Ted through OkCupid and uh and it was the only time any dating app ever worked for me everything else was complete another failure but the ted is a winner and i met bill at a party and yeah so that's how it worked

out why do you think it worked with the the one time on ok cupid was your profile different were you saying something different both ted and i were very clear about what this was at the time when an OkCupid profile actually meant something where you could, you know, write what you wanted and, you know, some people actually read them. I haven't been on OkCupid for the last few years, but it was going the way of, it got bought by the same company that runs Match.com and all those other ones. And they all have a standard template that works for their business model really well. Works for people, maybe not so much. It creates lots of matches, but, you know, you don't really you can't really get that much in depth not the way you used to be able to so

i'm sorry i was on okcupid when i was actually helpful well it was very helpful i i always like to to wonder how that the matches work at that time and you said you and ted were very clear in what it is you were looking for yeah yeah and also he just seemed like an interesting person to talk to. I mean, you know, I just like a first meeting being like, ooh, is this person compatible for this particular kind of relationship with me? Like, no, they just sound interesting. I'd love to sit down and have a cup of tea with them and see what the conversation is like. And that was great. And I've had lots of conversations that way. I always dislike the approach of treating dating as a job interview. I have my own wonderful life and it's really rich and fabulous and it's already

got great people in it. And if new wonderful people come into my life, that is gravy, but I'm not going out there saying, oh my God, I need to find this. This is working for you. Yeah. It's like, yeah, if I meet people and we click in whatever way we click, bonus. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I love your approach to dating or just meeting people in general. I think it's more natural and authentic and you're just getting to know the person at the end of the day. Yeah. And I meet lots of people and they come into my life in a lot of ways. And all those relationships matter. And we'll probably talk in a bit about, you know, what comprises the relationship escalator. I mean, we talked about some of the milestones,

the trajectory that it goes through. But it also has certain hallmarks, the rules, the fine print of how it's supposed to really work that a lot of people don't talk about it. And that's what I really delved into into my book. But one of the most powerful ones that a lot of people don't think about on the traditional monogamous relationship escalator is hierarchy. And that is the idea that whoever your partner is in that relationship escalator is supposed to be the most important person in your life who takes default priority over just about every other priority or person you have in your life, with the exception of relationships that are based in caregiving, like taking care of kids, taking care of elderly parents, you know, whatever.

Your escalator partner is supposed to come first. I don't roll that way. That doesn't work with how I feel. And that's not good for me or my relationships. So not by valuing all the people in my life, and they are all important and they are all wonderful. I don't, the times in my life when I have not had a sexual or romantic partner, I haven't felt lonely. I haven't felt desperate. I haven't felt deprived. It's like, yeah, would I like to have sex and romance in my life for the times when I don't? Yeah, you know, I do. But it's not like, oh my God, I need to have this right now or else I'm an incomplete failure of a person I don't roll like that yeah and I think that's important to it's just you being comfortable with who you are and knowing where you're at in

life and I think a lot of people try to find outside value or outside you know love instead first so it's that it's like I gotta have this because it's gonna complete me And, you know, I'm not saying that that approach to life is wrong. I'm not saying that I'm superior. Believe me, there's plenty of stuff I mess up in life. But, you know, for people who feel like they absolutely need to have a certain kind of relationship to be complete, I think personally, it's important to honor that priority and also ask yourself and be very honest with yourself, why is that so important with you? And if that particular thing does not work out or does not work out the way you want it, what are you going to do then? Because life happens. Oh, yes, it sure does. So, you know, you touched a little bit about hierarchy, but what are the other main hallmarks of the traditional relationship escalator? So through all those people who talked to me in the survey, five clear themes coalesce, things that are the hallmarks of the relationship escalator. And there can be some variation in how people approach them. But a traditional escalator relationship that not only the people in it feel like they're on that escalator, but it gets perceived and treated as that high-status, privileged, you know, escalator kind of relationship from everybody around it, including government, including health insurance companies, including real estate brokers.

these five things are of course the 800 pound gorilla the most obvious one is monogamy that is sexual and romantic exclusivity between two and only two people how the how that works out in an individual relationship depends on the people involved some people are like you can't even think about somebody else and other people are like yeah just try not to bang genitals together I mean, really, a wide, wide spectrum. Yeah, okay. And yeah, a lot of times people don't negotiate about what monogamy actually means to them. Much hilarity ensues.

The next one, which we've hinted at before, is merging. Now, that's not just about moving in together. That's about merging the infrastructure of your life and your identity. It is about becoming a couple, thinking and acting as a unit. having a lot of interpersonal accountability, like I'm supposed to know where you are all the time, feeling like another person's behavior reflects on you, you know, just a lot of real identity merging.

And that, again, none of these hallmarks are intrinsically a bad thing, but they're just something to be aware of, that they exist and they are options. Hierarchies, the other one, we discussed that briefly, the idea that your escalator partner is supposed to take the cake over everything else. Which is why if you're going to an event that requires a plus one and you bring your best friend and people know that you have an escalator partner, they're going to say, is everything okay? Seriously, I've had that happen. And again, the direct eye contact and sustained raucous laughter is just. Then I was really surprised by two hallmarks that are just as important as those ones,

but we're kind of hiding in plain sight. The first one is the presumption of a sexual and romantic connection, that you and your escalator partner are presumed to have sex and to feel in love, to feel those romantic feelings for each other, or at least she did at one point, Because we know in a lot of long-term relationships, it doesn't necessarily work out that way long-term. But it's presumed to have been there. Where does that lead people who are on the asexuality spectrum or on the aromanticism spectrum? Are they not allowed to have relationships or love?

Anyway, the last one, though, is the presumption of continuity and consistency, the whole always and forever thing. That this relationship, once it proceeds along the escalated trajectory, it's going to stay there. you know, on that escalator, especially once you reach the pinnacle, you know, which is legal marriage and then maybe the legacy of like buying a house and having kids together and all that kind of stuff. But once you get there, it is supposed to stay there until somebody dies, which means the only way you know that you did this escalator thing right is when one of you dies. I don't know, I think that's kind of a messed up benchmark for success, but that's just me. But it doesn't leave room for relationships that might kind of wax and wane or change over time. It doesn't leave a lot

of room for renegotiation. There's a lot of, well, you signed up for this in the traditional relationship escalator model, even if it's something you didn't actually discuss explicitly. Yeah. There's the presumption that there is a contract and the contract has clauses and terms and you signed up for it somehow and that is the deal and it's like that works pretty well in the business world okay works like crap in personal relationships because that's not how people roll people are moving targets everyone is a moving target we all evolve and change even after decades together and there can be ways that we can become compatible more compatible or incompatible. People's expression of their gender identity or their sexuality can change over time.

People can have different priorities. Somebody who was really all about having that house in the suburbs at one point now wants to chuck it all on by an RV. I mean, that's what happens. And the problem with the relationship escalator model being so strongly privileged in this society is that like we're talking about other options are less visible and you got to do a lot of scratching around and and you know bumping around in terms of doing things badly and wrong before you find some some options that actually work for you it also means that if you step off that relationship escalator you're giving up a lot of status and that's a scary thing that can mean that people don't necessarily want to start over. They're worried about how they will be seen and

treated. They're like, oh my God, do I have to start dating again? Spoiler, you don't if you don't want to. Not mandatory. And people just really tend to, that level of privilege associated with it makes the relationship escalator even harder to lead. And it also discourages people from negotiating and renegotiating. Just think about it. Especially in dating app world. If you want something other than monogamy, it's expected that you should disclose that very clearly,

right up front, like a surgeon general's warden, you know? And why is that not true of everybody's preference, including people who want monogamy in the traditional relationship escalator? Why should it be presumed that you want this thing unless otherwise? and the otherwise is other is an important word it is literally other it's over there somewhere it's weird it's scary don't do it don't even talk about and if people can't even talk about this

stuff right at the beginning and say hey you know i actually really love monogamy it works for me and i want this really traditional you know model in these ways maybe you know around the details and different things great and if somebody says yeah i want something different you know it's like people run for the hills um and i think that's unfortunate and i think one thing that everybody can do to make the world a little bit safer for everybody to negotiate and renegotiate relationships is if what you want falls in the norms you know if you're like yeah i'm this heterosexual monogamous straight cisgender person say all that up front make it safe for everybody to say these things about themselves and don't stigmatize somebody for disclosing something different yeah thank you

for that that's i i couldn't agree with you more because not only is the structure of a relationship so important and needing to be discussed pretty pretty soon meeting someone and and okay i want to go further but this is who i am and what i what i what works for me but it's also a little bit further too in the sex arena, because I see the structure. Yes, you are, you are giving such golden pieces here of what is going to make a successful, hopefully relationships or relationship or whatever. But I think also there needs to be the talk of, of sexuality and where you stand within that and you know all these the fluidity of it so yeah and don't stigmatize something that's not traditional diversity is a feature it's not a bug and if you meet somebody who's different from

you yeah maybe it's a deal breaker for you but maybe you get a chance to meet somebody cool who's doing something different you and if you are not putting any new connection under the pressure of, I am only looking for this one goal and it has to look that I am manifesting and visualizing is perfect. Yeah. Life doesn't work that way. I need to break it to you. And you know, so what you, you meet somebody who, Hey, you didn't click with this in a certain way, but you learned something and you'll meet more people in your life. Yeah. I mean, it's really about being open. It's like the more open you are to learning and experiences, then you can really decide what works for you, what doesn't, because we are ever evolving. We are ever changing. How I was when I

was 20 is definitely not how I am at 47. So we have lived about five or six different lives in between. And I love myself more and more. I'm more comfortable with myself. And I don't know if that just comes with age, but it's nice because, you know, you talked about in your book, unconventional relationship styles are not just something that younger people are drawn to. Oh, yeah. Honestly, I think it's more common with people who are in their 40s or older because a lot of them have ridden that escalator all the way up to the top. And they either jumped off it or got knocked off of it. And they're like, is that all there is? Is there something that I could be doing differently? This is especially true for older women because traditional relationships, especially legal

marriage has always primarily served the interests of straight cisgender white men straight cisgender white men are awesome i love two of them they're fabulous and you know there's a reason why a lot of women when they get divorced later in life or um or if they were single moms all along or if they're widowed they may want to date they might want to have a partner but they don't want to get married. They don't want to live with a partner. They do not want to merge finances. There are a lot of reasons for that, but that's mainly because the way the gender responsibilities tend to break down in traditional relationships. Yeah. A lot of women are like, yeah, then they're done that, not doing that again. Amen. That is just not working out.

Yeah. And you're 100 percent right. And obviously you've had 1,500 plus people to participate in this. And I don't think I know that many people I've discussed this with. But that's in a way this less merged relationship can be very deep and enduring and valuable. I mean, there's a whole bunch of people who are mostly monogamous who choose to have a partner relationships where they don't live together, where they live apart. And that makes it work. It is not some kind of weird compromise because you can't agree on something. It's a feature, not a bug. and it can help relationships. And I mean, if your listeners get anything out of this conversation, you know, I'd encourage them to think if something about how your relationship works or how relationships you've been in don't work, don't just think, what was I doing wrong or what was my partner doing wrong? Say, is there a better way that this could be done? Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. It's interesting you just talked about that because on the Today Show, they were talking about how carson daly and his wife have sleep divorced right they call it sleep divorce

where they basically have different rooms and cohabit and now this is a thing right now it's like it's it's a wave of a way to to be successful in a marriage sleep divorcing you know yeah well that's a terrible terrible term i know exactly really because it's casting um you know a decision to do something that will help two partners have better sleep, which will probably help them be better partners as some sort of breakup or demotion. Yeah. Okay. If sleeping together was a problem, then not sleeping together, that's a win. Yeah. I like, I love, I love the way you state this and I just. Words matter. I mean, we toss these words around and so much of the language of love and sex and dating and relationships and government and insurance and taxes and everything

have the presumption baked into it that the relationship escalator and all its fine print is what you should want and what you should be doing and do something different at your own peril and my book is basically saying bullshit i love it well because you you know i mean it is it's like as a single woman to purchase my home, to get my car, to get my loan, to do XYZ, to run my business. I live in Austin and I've only been here two years and thinking, oh, this is such a great blue city, very liberal. I'll fit right in from New York. I've lived in all big liberal cities and i come here and it's still like on medical forms husband you know it's very like yeah traditional traditional so we live in a very couple-centric society where couplehood and

especially couplehood that's on the escalator or moving toward that goal is extremely privileged and legal marriage is essentially institutionalized couple privilege. And I'm not saying legal marriage is wrong. It has worked well for many people and it provides some important protections for people who might really need it. You know, especially if one partner is staying home and raising the kids and the other partner is, okay, the protections of legal marriage make a lot of sense, but all privilege comes with the flip side of stigma. And whenever you have some form of privilege, I think it's very important to acknowledge that privilege and do what you can to try to not hurt people with it. And it does, couple privilege and marital privilege does hurt people. It's not just

that it's on the medical forms. If you had cancer, I hope you don't. If you had cancer, there is a fair amount of research that shows that if you do not have a partner at home who will you know be that who lives there just the existence of that partner means that you will probably be have more options for more aggressive cancer treatment okay your partner could be a complete deadbeat who's whose drinks on the couch all day and still expects you to cook after you got it open chemo okay but as far the medical profession has a long way to go with this where rather than asking what kind of support do you have who is in your life who could support you through treatment and assessing the amount of support people really have rather than just say do you check this box

well then you must have support and people die because of this we have so much work to do in this country. But thank God for your book, seriously, because it really, it's so beautifully done. I know it was a labor of love and it was so, you know, like you said, you had to learn qualitative data, which, learn to read it, write it, learn it. Analyze it, yeah. I became an amateur social scientist. But yeah, it's a good thing I wasn't doing scholarly academic research because an online survey is not a representative sample of anything except the people who choose to respond to it. But still, 1,500 people is 1,500 people. And there is a lot of diversity in that sample. I mean, for instance, even in the realm of non-monogamy, an awful lot of swingers consider

themselves to be very socially and politically conservative and religious. It is extremely common for there to be large swinger communities in highly conservative areas so don't just assume because people check one box somewhere in their life that the other parts of it work that way too and necessarily so for anything yeah that's a good point too and i can second that i know quite a few so i've loved all this i think everybody really should take a read because you know not only if you are in a traditional relationship or not I think there's a lot to learn here and awareness and I love that you're bringing awareness to this because it's it's so needed is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to talk about oh well how people who are dating and want love and

connection can learn about and explore different kinds of relationships and more more importantly what not to do, okay? Don't use dating as your learning curve. Long place to start. Other people's hearts are not your crash test, homies. Make friends and find community if you're interested in something new. If you think you might want to explore some new aspect of your sexuality. If you think that, you know what, I've always been in straight relationships, but I'm curious about relationships with people of other biology and other gender identity. I'm curious about, well, okay, you know what? Go to your local LGBTQ center and volunteer for something. Show up and help and get to know people and make friends. If there's a discussion and support group, go to that. If you

are interested in kink and having that dimension to your relationships, there's probably a dungeon near you. And all these communities tend to have something that's called munches or something similar where basically a bunch of people from the community get together over a meal and just answer questions from people who are new and curious. And it's a very low stakes way to do it. Make friends and find community first. And if it is something that you have no idea what's going on or that is extremely stigmatized, such as non-monogamy, then give it a good year or so doing that. Okay. Don't just rush into trying to date. And I know a lot of men, especially sexism hurts everybody, including men. And a lot of men are socialized to outsource a lot of their

emotional skills and management to the women in their lives. And they look to the women in their lives to kind of train them to how to do relationships once they're in it. Don't do that. you know don't expect that you're going to start dating a polyamorous woman and she's going to teach you all about polyamory that's a real role conflict right there you don't want to be dating your teacher that's not just about school systems it helps so much if you're going to do anything if you were embracing your identity as an asexual person they get to know asexual people again go down to your lgbtq center and say who can i talk to insert discussion group or support group or an event or at a festival or something that I can volunteer for and show up and make friends and

find community and find mentors because it is always better to learn about these things and to undo all the stigma that is already inside your skull because it's there, trust me, in a less emotionally charged and socially volatile context than trying to date. Even the idea of dating is so steeped in the relationship escalator that the whole casual versus serious dichotomy which is this going to be casual or serious and it's like yeah no they're just people they're just human beings and just get to know them once you start to expand your social network a couple of things will happen you will learn from other people's experience you will see how this aspect of their identity or relationship fits into the full context of their life it's not just this the

thing you get with online discussion groups is you're just getting that little one wedge of you know this person talking about polyamory or asexuality or whatever kink whatever in their life you see how this fits into their full and complete life and you learn from other people's mistakes and this is the biggest benefit if you decide to venture diverge from some of those powerful social norms yourself you will have support it's so important to have people who get it you aren't going to say well why are you trying to do that weird thing in the first place what's wrong with you um oh you just need to try to do the normal thing harder um because that Unfortunately, that is the advice that so many people who are queer, who are not monogamous, who are asexual, aromantic, who might want to have a relationship that is really important to them, but it doesn't come with the whole bundle that we're told we're supposed to want in one way or the other.

Find support first. Make it easier on yourself. Invest in that time. And guess what? You'll make friends. You'll have community. Bonus. Yeah.

Yeah, that's so powerful. And that's such great advice. Thank you for sharing that and sharing your experiences. Where can people listening here purchase your book? Oh, yeah. So my book is Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator, Uncommon Love and Life. If you go to offescalator.com, all one word, offescalator.com, you'll find where it is. You can even buy this on copy for me if you want. I don't vouch for my handwriting. And also, So, too, I mentioned earlier that a couple of important books were published on the solo perspective. The first is Single at Heart by Adela DePaula, who is a social scientist who has done a ton of research on single issues and bias against single people. And it's just a brilliantly researched book.

Just came out this month. I'm just starting to read it. And the other, I'm looking up the exact title so I get it right, is Solo, Building a Remarkable Life by Peter McGraw. who is a behavioral economist and social scientist who runs a wonderful podcast called Solo, The Single Person's Guide to a Remarkable Life. And both of those books, brand new, just out. And I only just started reading both of them. And as soon as I get off this interview, I'm going back to them. It's amazing. And the nice thing about those books is even if you want to have some sort of coherent consistent ongoing love and relationship in your life sexual romantic

connection you might want the relationship escalator is a good thing works really really well for a lot of people just not the only game in town but you know even if you want all that i think it helps for people to understand what it takes to have a good life as a single individual because guess what? Life happens. And you don't want to stay in a relationship that is not suiting you because you are scared to be alone. And these two books will help alleviate that anxiety and also help you not stigmatize other people who are not riding that relationship escalator for whatever reason. Thank you. Thank you for sharing those two books too. That's really powerful information. Okay. Last question. Yeah. What was one of your favorite dates and what was it?

Oh, okay. Well, actually was with my former spouse who I loved dearly. And there were two favorite dates with him. The first one was our first date, which started out as he was a photographer for a journalist and he was shooting photos on a story I was writing about rats in the Philadelphia subways actually turned into a really great date. It was fun and kissed my hand as I got onto the train back to New Jersey. It was pretty cool. The other one was well after we had gotten unmarried. It was on my birthday in 2017. And we went on a camping trip to go see the total solar eclipse up in Wyoming. And we stood on top of a hill on a road with a lot of people around and just watched 360 degree sunset all around wow that was so cool and yes you can date people

that you are not in a sexual or romantic relationship with yes you can this is a date and that's awesome and it was my birthday i mean oh that's so special on my birthday and he and i are those science geeks so we were having like so much fun with that whole thing so I love that. Thank you for sharing. Well, as we wrap up this fascinating conversation with Amy, I want to express my heartfelt thanks for sharing her insights and experiences. And to you, our listeners, your support and engagement make this journey truly rewarding. So remember to follow and subscribe to the Down and Dirty podcast for more inspiring conversations. Don't forget to check out my website, my social media for updates and exclusive content. So

Until next time, keep exploring, stay curious, and thank you for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode and want to support podcasts like ours, then please hit that subscribe button, leave a five-star rating, and or invite others to listen. Your support is what helps us grow and continue to bring you valuable content. Thanks for hanging out with us on today's episode. Let's stay connected. You can find me on Instagram at Celeste Moore Image, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on today's discussion. For all the links, resources, and additional information mentioned in this

episode, check out the show notes on my website, celestemore.com. That's all for now, but stay tuned for our next episode where we'll dive into more exciting topics. Until then, see you next time, friends. Thank you.