Moore Style - Tapping into Your Authentic Self in Relationships with Shirley Johnson

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

In today’s episode of the podcast, we sit down with Shirley Johnson of Soulistic Wellness. Shirley is a healer, intimacy coach, licensed therapist, ritualist, and yoga instructor. She has alchemized over fifteen years experience of exploration of self and specialized training in energy work, movement, psychology and yoga into a passionate profession: restoring intimacy and vulnerability in the collective consciousness through community building and ancient healing arts. In her private practice, Shirley works with adults and couples and specializes in codependency recovery, intimacy, money and vulnerability, especially in Black women and women of color. This episode, we discuss: [3:50] What people struggle with when tapping into their authentic self  [5:18] How Celeste worked to uncover her authentic self  [10:20] Why it’s important to know yourself when it comes to relationships [12:34] Why self-awareness is important before entering a new relationship and how to become more self-aware in your relationships  [19:50] The importance of communication in a relationship  [21:59] How to approach different communication styles in a relationship [27:48] Shirley’s thoughts on using love languages in relationships  [33:10] Ways to work through vulnerability in relationships  [37:09] The different forms of intimacy in relationships [45:27] How to combat the mental health stigma as a person of color  [51:00] Shirley’s favorite date she has ever been on  Connect with Shirley:  Website Instagram  Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode! Now go have fun and swipe right and see who is compatible for you.

Hi, everyone. I'm your host, Celeste Moore, and you are listening to the Down and Dirty podcast, aka the Double D's of dating. This is a podcast for navigating the ins and outs of modern midlife dating. Here, we will discuss the challenges that men and women face in today's dating world. Like many industries, this one is forever changing, and I believe this platform will help those who need or want it. Today, it is the best time to take control of your desired outcome, whether it is a marriage, significant other, life partner, or just to gain the confidence in dating once again. Every other week, we will dive in and talk about different viewpoints that seem to be challenges in today's dating arena.

So let's get into today's episode. Let me welcome everybody to podcast 19 with today's guest, Shirley Johnson. Again, thank you so kindly for being on the show. and let me just give everybody a little bit of background about Shirley's education and her experience. Shirley Johnson, LMFT. She's a healer, intimacy coach, licensed therapist, ritualist, yoga instructor, radical authenticity and self-acceptance as a philosophy, life ideology and healing practice this is what licensed psychotherapist and healing practitioner shirley johnson lives by she's based in oakland california by the way of the bronx new york

shirley has alchemized over 15 years experience of exploration of self and specialized training in energy work, movement, psychology, and yoga into a passionate profession, restoring intimacy and vulnerability in a collective consciousness through community building and ancient healing arts. Shirley holds a BA in modern culture and media and ethnic studies from Brown University and completed her graduate studies in clinical psychology at California Institute of Integral studies. Shirley has studied with a number of healers and yoga teachers and is a sought-after speaker for various events and training on mental health and wellness, intimacy, and race. In her private practice, Shirley works with adults and couples and specializes in co-dependency

recovery, intimacy, money, and vulnerability, especially in Black women and women of color. that is wow I mean you just have a it's it's so wide-ranged and it all works together and I'm sure um your clients you know you can really help them in so many different areas um I really what drew me um there's so many things that I want to talk to you about but really the the one thing that stood out to me right away was I absolutely love the fact that you teach people how to be their authentic self. I teach my clients to do this on a much different level through style, expression, clothing, even with date coaching. So it's a little bit different. I mean, not that I don't get deep, but you get really deep with that. What do you think that some of their struggles

with being their authentic self, what, what would you say they come to maybe just not knowing or never understanding how, how to be their authentic self? Yeah, I think it's a mix. I think sometimes people don't realize that what might be at the root of their suffering is that they have been externally oriented. And when I say externally oriented, I mean, thinking about their mother, their kid, their partner, their boss, and therefore trying to adapt and adjust to become what they think the world or people in their life want rather than actually just being themselves. So much of that as a therapist comes up when people, oh, I'm fine. Everything's great. I'm okay. Right. Rather than honoring authentically, it might be actually I'm pissed off or I'm

overwhelmed. I, I don't have it together this week. And that's part of our authenticity too. So, so much of, sometimes people are aware, like I I'm, I'm not being authentic and so often, and the case, the case is also the same for me. There can be times that I don't even recognize I'm not being authentic. And what I've noticed is that me not being authentic and others probably may notice this in their life, it creates suffering. Yeah. That's a really, I mean, I think there's so many layers to that. Me personally, I did some self-development and leadership training and courses, I don't know, about 12 years ago. It's been a while, but nobody, before that I did some therapy, some really deep therapy, but I think this, this kind of

experience really opened my eyes to what others, how others viewed me in the world where I thought I was being something, like you said, something that I needed to be for my daughter, for my business, for my family. And when people really sat there and they said, no, Celeste, this is how you're coming across. You're an Island. You're, you know, you do everything by yourself. You never ask for help. And, and it was a real big wake up call for me. And so I think it's sometimes really hard to dive deep and work on ourselves, but I think it's paramount to relationships to, well, even ourselves, right. To having that whole healthy relationship with ourselves before we can give ourselves to another, but wow, that's pretty, I love that you teach

that. I think that's just, it's so needed because especially with social media, with this online dating or just, you know, there's this, what we should be to the world or what everybody wants us to be. And I think that we're caught up in that and we're not living our true authentic selves. Right. Or even like, I'm sure with you and coaching people in dating, right. It makes we think also of and so many other areas but right we're taught from such a young age especially women I think how to be like attractive right how or how to be desirable right like wear my hair like this dress like this act like this do this don't eat this and I'm sure that you know the older I got the more I realized like oh all these things I've been taught to perform are not actually

helping me get the intimacy and the relationships that I want. And it's such, it takes such courage at the same time when for many of us, we grow up being told this is the right way to be. And this is how you market yourself, whether it be for a job, a partner, whatever, like you said on social media, you know, there's a level of like market yourself. This is, this is the right way to make your Instagram page. Look, this is what's going to give you a six figure business. And what I have found is that, you know, the best marketing one can do for themselves is being themselves. Very true. I think I'm learning this as building an online presence. And I found this really is a little bit of a struggle. And I feel that when I'm more open

and honest, and people are getting to know me better, that's when they're connecting. And I think that's in life too, right? If somebody's pretending, or I don't want to say pretending, but they're really not being who they really are, people can see through it. And even if you come across as weird or different, I would respect that person so much because that person is just who they are. Love who you are. And who cares if other people don't like it?

A lot of people will, though. We're all weird and different and we all are quirky. You know, I think there's this fantasy that like somebody out there is not weird or is not quirky. I remember a fellow yoga teacher one time we were like, this is years ago. We were getting like photos taken at the yoga studio for, you know, the yoga studios, promotions and marketing. And he was like, Shirley, let your freak flag fly. And it was so refreshing to hear that. I always will remember that soundbite because it's like, yeah, let it fly. Because guess what? That's going to actually bring in the person who's like, I like that. And also so much of our authenticity. Sometimes we think we like things because we think that's what we're supposed to do. I'm supposed to like the person who has a corporate job and is very, and went to a prestigious

university where the truth is, especially with dating and falling in love, we might fall in love with someone who is a entrepreneur where we might fall in love with someone who's a teacher, someone who doesn't make six figures, someone who doesn't have whatever bravado isn't six foot three, you know? And that's okay because when we let ourself fall in love in some levels, we're really letting ourselves be authentic and we're really allowing ourselves to see what we love authentically. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, you said it really beautiful. I love that. I just feel like there's so many, yeah. I mean, and I'm just going to kind of bring it back to the dating world, but I feel

that I teach my clients, if you don't know who you are, if you don't know what it is, even that you want, how can you bring that to a relationship or, and, or make sure that you're healed from the past relationship. Now I know you also, um, your clients come to you about relationships or couples or even single people, I imagine. Yep. And so I'm sure that's huge, right? Yeah. And I'm remembering, I love this quote from a psychotherapist, psychologist, um, Harville Hendricks, who's done a lot of books on relationships over generations. And there's the quote that always sticks out to me. And it's, we are born in relationship, we are wounded in relationship, and we have the possibility of being healed in relationship. And it's that reminder

also, I think that sometimes folks think, oh, I can't get into a relationship until I am completely healed. And one thing about relationships or sometimes what I call them real relationships, like a relationship is that it will do healing. It will do some of the healing for us that I believe at least being in relationship, right. And true relationship, there's a healing that can take place there because so much of our healing is not done just by ourselves reading a book, which is why people need coaches, therapists, physical trainers, shamans, et cetera. It's done in community. It's done with another. And I think the relationship when we're fortunate enough, right, where we are being authentic, we meet someone else who's being

authentic. I think that that can be the ground for some deeper healing to happen that we might not even know is there. That's such a good point. I know that when we are in human interaction and that we, like you said, we are in relationships with other people, we do learn from them, right? We do have the ability to heal each other, but when, okay, so my question for you then, one is enough healed or enough worked on that you can, or, you know, like you said, you're never going to be perfect, right? We're always working on ourselves, I hope. But where are you able to go into another relationship at what, is that just very personal? Is that, you know, when, when you don't bring the baggage or excuse me, don't repeat

the habits that maybe broke that relationship up before. I do think that is, there's probably no exact like point, but I think when I think though, like to answer the question, my response would be when you are willing to go into a relationship and know that you have baggage and know that you're going to be sorting it out while you're certain relationship, right? I think having self-awareness, having a certain amount of self-awareness to say, yeah, you know, I pushed my ex away and I don't want to do this this time. So I'm in this relationship with you and I'm aware I have that pattern of pushing people away. I don't want to do it with you. I'm really working to show up. Oh, I'm pushing you away,

but I see that in myself and I'm willing to look at myself or talk to my therapist or talk to my coach, talk to whomever, talk to my friends. I'm willing to see that part of myself and see how it impacts you. I think there has to be that self-awareness and that self-accountability because the truth is, like you said, no one's perfect. And we're all going to have like little relapses at some point into behaviors that probably, you know, have, have potentially hurt us or hurt another person in the past. Okay. So if we're willing to still recognize that we have the work to do and continue to work on that, then it might be okay to enter a new relationship. Yeah. I think when we really see what we're doing, right. And we see ourselves

and we're willing to take responsibility for it. Because if otherwise, if we're going into relationships and we think, well, I've healed, I'm a different person. But underneath that statement is still me doing the same stuff that I was doing five years ago that was causing da da da da da you know I'd rather someone who's like listen I know I have this this uh tendency in me and I'm going to work hard to not do it or I'm going to talk to you when I see it happening rather than someone who's so haughty and thinks oh I've healed everything and they're showing up and doing, doing things that are showing really like, um, you know, the lack of thoughtfulness, lack of kindness, whatever. Or maybe the same patterns. Right. I mean, this is why people

come to me, but I'm sure it's why they come to you for a much like, okay, why am I, why am I still dating these people when I want this? Like what is happening? So yes, I think people have to be aware. And like I said, it's tough. It's hard to say, Oh, I'm the factor. I'm the one that is causing everything. Like, but I don't know. I truly believe that as people, as humans, that it's our job. It's our, we should always try to do better. We should always try to learn. doesn't mean that you you can't relax and enjoy yourself but I think self-awareness emotional intelligence all these things that it's it's a good thing to ask questions to read to learn so just I mean like you said we're born in relationships we I don't know the quote but

that was a beautiful quote um we're always in a relationship with somebody yes and relationships for so many of us are really what's at the heart of our life so you know it is so i think important and worthwhile to investigate when we feel we are constantly in the same relationship or we're getting hurt in relationships or we're suffering in relationship to really investigate what is our contribution to that of course there's some relationship dynamics that when there's any kind of violence or abuse, I'd say that this concept doesn't apply to that kind of gravity of harm in a relationship. But I do think there is something to like, what do they say? Wherever you go, there you are. It's not always the other person. So

there's the way that it takes also some self-awareness to be like, yeah, I know I can be closed off. I know I can be really agitated when I haven't, like the other day for me, it was when I'm overwhelmed and I'm doing a lot of work and I'm committed to a lot of things, one tiny thing can set me off. And my boyfriend told me, he knew I was overwhelmed. He said, don't worry. The morning he said, I'll cook us dinner tonight. And I was like, really relieved. It was like, oh good. That's one thing off my plate. I'm going to come home and I'll have dinner. I don't even care what it is and then right before like dinner right a little bit before as dinner was approaching I called him I said um you know I'm home where do you want to have

dinner your place or mine and he's like yeah do you mind making the rice and I was like yes I was like no I will not make it and he was like okay no problem he he thought he was he was asking me because he thought I was very hungry at the moment and that if I made the rice it would cut down the timing of how long I had to wait to eat. I told, and I was very good awareness for me to notice, wow, when I get to that point, one single ask being asked to make rice, where if I wanted to make the rice set me off, I was ready to be closed off. I was, and I told him, I said, you know, one thing I'm learning about myself is that I said, it's not that you asking me to make the rice was wrong or bad, but I'm noticing that when I'm really stressed or overwhelmed,

one ask from someone can feel like a boulder on my shoulders and it was a good moment for us for me to communicate some of the overwhelm I was experiencing for me to communicate what would be helpful like I think he he got he got it that like don't ask me to do something when I something that he's told me he's gonna do when I get to that point um you know and we're constantly discovering ourselves. We're always developing. Human development does not stop when we turn 21 or 18. There's adult development that doesn't get as focused on as the way that child development does. So I think like to your point, I agree. We have to constantly be learning. Our brain is a muscle. The same way we want to work out our muscles, we go to the gym or yoga, Pilates.

we want to also I think it's our duty as a human and a human body to also exercise our brain yeah that's awesome I love it um so you're talking about communication here how important would you say that communication for couples to is to a thriving relationship i mean it's it i think it's the biggest factor i 100 agree with you and in the couple's relationship counseling work that i do everything boils down to communication so they might come in because there's been a rupture someone's cheated on the other person what it has to do with this communication right on a level i'm not saying the harm isn't an issue that has to be addressed or issues around monogamy or polyamory, but like what's at the base of it is often communication

because oftentimes what hurts the person, let's say who's been cheated on is the lack of communication from their partner or the fact that their partner was hiding something from them. Money, communication. A lot of couples come in because it's money stress or they're having difference in money. It comes down to communication, understanding one another's approach to money, understanding where each person is coming from money. So I agree. I think communication, when it all boils down, you know, whatever the surface issue is, money, sex, certain arrangements, it comes down to communicating and knowing how to communicate, especially in moments where one has a different opinion, thought, belief than their partner.

yes i mean i know that even from my personal experiences going into relationship um where i thought maybe we were you know on the same page or on the same level with a certain issue and as time went by things didn't they we weren't on the same page and so but how i communicate versus how he communicated it was also very different and so i feel that there's not one form that works for everybody right there's not one avenue of communication that works and how do you approach that when there's complete two different like you know uh receiving that how how i'm receiving this is not how he's receiving it i mean is that something that you just you kind of like it's you know person by person

relationship by relationship, or is there just all different styles of communicating? Yeah, I think there's lots of different styles of communicating. And I think one thing that I have seen generally be very effective in bridging that communication gap is very simple. It's slowing down. I have seen that couples or people in general, when we're, it's very hard to hear one another when everything is going so fast. The brain is trying to make sense of it. The mind is trying to make sense of it. The body is trying to make sense of it. So a big technique that I do with couples and individuals, but in this case, couples is just slowing them down and asking them after they have heard their partner or their partner has talked, who knows if they've heard

them really checking in with both parties to see what are you feeling right now? Because our emotions or the physical sensations in our body are often going to give us some cue to how those words landed with us. Even if we say, yeah, it's fine. I'm fine with that. Right. But if I'm saying I'm fine. I'm fine, but I'm clenching my jaw and my fists are rolled up. Then there's probably some stuff I'm not fine with. And that's what often as a, in a relationship, right? We want to learn how to communicate those things that we're not quote unquote fine with. I'm not fine with you asking me to make rice, right? You know, I'm not, and it's not a, and it's not a, and it's not personal. It's not a sign that anyone is wrong. Like some of it, I think is also D is

or not D but neutralizing and allowing like two things can be true like someone can be innocent in their ask or innocent in their words and it can impact someone in a way that doesn't doesn't seem like what the person who said it was expecting and it doesn't mean either person is invalid or needs to be negated it's like can there be room for both people to have their own experience. And neither one of them have to blame or shame the other person for the experience. That's a really good point. Because I think that just recently, I've had a friend of mine, we had a very one day when I was stressed and, you know, not feeling my best. And it was a simple ask. And I just was very short and abrupt. And then I realized though that I think what I was

proud of myself about is that I was self-aware. Oh my God, I just did this. And I came across probably really brash. So then I reached out and explained, but this individual couldn't understand still and I said you don't have to understand I just want you to know that this is my own things that I'm dealing with and I apologize and but it was just a relentless like but I still don't understand but it is it's okay not to understand it's okay for that other person to have like you said they both have valid emotions valid explanations but it doesn't always it doesn't always need to be perfectly solved in your head right I mean like this person I still don't understand but I said but you don't have to just know I apologize for for being so harsh

yeah absolutely I and I think sometimes our desire for knowing right and being able to figure it all the way out gets in the way of the connecting, right? Like the connection of actually you saying, listen, this is just how I was feeling. Like there's a moment for connection there. And sometimes, you know, what's that saying? You can either be right or you can be love. Oh my God. Yes. Right. Like I want to be right. I want to figure it all out. Well, you know, let me, I'll say quite frankly, and I say this to a lot of my clients. Okay. Let's say you do figure it out. Let's say you figure it out. Then what, what's the fantasy? Cause it usually is a fantasy. If I understand it, if I figure it out, then dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And part of this

and relationships, I think are so humbling to humans because they remind us of how much we do not know. This is true. And when we want to, you know, when so many of us have been groomed to try to be know-it-alls or think that knowing everything is the best way to be right. And that comes back to the authenticity right just being yourself I don't know don't we yes that's such a good point because like you said we're always learning we're always even with ourselves like oh that's a trigger for me oh like how did how did that happen so on and so forth yeah that's really good point so I um this month I'm doing a series on love languages I'm kind of diving deep into that a little bit and doing like a month um I would say a little series what um that's a form

of communication how do you feel that do you say something that you teach is this something that you feel works? Well, I think that love languages are, I think I use references to that book and to that concept a bit. I do think it has given the generation that has kind of come up with that book, I think some great tools and some great insight into understanding or understanding ourselves and seeing very practically some of the nuance of being in a relationship where somebody wants words of affirmation and I want to give hugs, you know, like to be able to see that and to also be able to hold like, oh, just because my partner isn't giving me words of affirmation all the time doesn't mean they don't love me. They take my car to get surf it. Like, oh, I'm

understanding that when they take my car to get serviced or fill up my gas tank or send me to the spa, like those are their ways of communicating love. So I do think it's a great, it can be a great foundation for starting to understand ourselves, for getting in touch with what we actually want and, and learning to express that to those in our life and say, oh, you know, I would love it if you, if you gave me a hug when you come through the door. And I also think that most humans need all of, I, one thing I want to say like on the record is that we don't have to limit ourself to one love language. I think the premise is that there's usually one that is like the most charged for us. And also I think the truth is that most humans

want a little of all of them. At least I do. Yes. Agreed. When I took the test, I was like, oh, okay. I can see that. But you know, acts of service for me, because it makes my life easier And I don't know that it's something that I do. And it's funny how, that what you, how you receive love is how you automatically give it, but that's not always received. But I agree. I was like, but, but I love quality time and I love physical touch. And I love, you know, I'm not huge on words of affirmation, but sometimes they're nice

to hear. And you're right. I believe as humans, we need a little bit of everything. um but like my daughter she's like it's the gifts for her and when I was going through just like say going through her room and just trying to edit and get rid of stuff and she would hold on to these pieces of like no mommy so-and-so gave that to me on this particular day and it was like okay do I have a hoarder here but it was it was not that it was just that she for her was a connection of like, that was, she felt loved through that one little item. And so it was

neat to see though, that, that where she and how she receives her love. Yeah. And another thing they're reminding me of is I also imagine that our love language or primary love language changes over time. Like one thing I've been sitting with is I don't think it's a static thing, right? Because I think depending on the season we're in, in our life, like for your daughter, who's, you know, I imagine on the younger end, yeah, having those tangible things that she can touch and hold and look at might be very important developmentally to her and really sort of connect with her being able to ground into experiencing love, right? And the older that she gets, it may turn into physical touch. It may turn into words of affirmation. So I think, you know, I remember being in my 20s and thinking gifts, you know, oh, it's gifts.

I want gifts. And then in my 30s, being in therapy and realizing, oh, gee, it's actually affection. It's touch. And now I think it's touch. And I also think it's it's in my 40s. I think it's also going into acts of service, like you said, like things that are like, oh, right, you're making me dinner, like, oh, you're taking care of me on some level that it's like lightening my daily load. like that goes a much longer way than like a gift. Oh yeah. At this point in my life. Right. So I think it's also important for us to just stay flexible with them and, and be flexible then knowing that our partner is also like, what was, what was it for our partners is different

now too. And remind remembering that all of us change. Yeah. And that's, that's so important. And you made such a good point on we're constant, like we're constantly changing and evolving and, and always checking in with your partner to see you know so I think it's a good like you said it's a good base it's a good way to kind of learn things about each other um and I also um I just gonna talk about two more I know I know there's so much to talk about but um vulnerability this is also something that's that's a tough one I I don't know especially especially when you've been hurt how can we work through vulnerability so that we can once again be in that space for another um and i know there's different levels of hurt and things that have

you know transgressed but what are some of the ways that maybe are like the listeners today could take away and maybe something they could practice or something they can do yeah well my personal study of vulnerability has been that it's it's the route to getting the intimacy and connection that we all desire and are hardwired for I and I think it goes back to that authenticity. To me, when I think about vulnerability on a level, what I'm thinking about is authenticity. It's letting it all hang out, right? Whether it be quote unquote good, the bad or the ugly. And yes, it can be so hard when we've had our hearts broken, when we have had our trust betrayed, et cetera, et cetera. One thing I want to hopefully leave with the

listeners is when you are being vulnerable, try to remember you're not being vulnerable or you're not taking actions of vulnerability for anyone else. You're doing it for yourself. When I noticed is when I started to practice being vulnerable, I started to notice I felt lighter. I felt freer. I felt more spacious. I felt more clear in my communication. I wasn't doing it to get something from someone else, to manipulate, to be liked. I was doing it because I started to notice this is just how energy wants to flow. When I'm trying to block it off and harden this, and don't get me wrong, there's still moments I harden up and block off. When I'm doing all of that, it's from an energy standpoint, which I imagine you are tuned in with and your listeners are, and stops the

energy. If we think about communication as energy, it's a flow of energy. But if I have these walls up and these blocks and these fortresses, the energy is going to stop flowing. So my invitation is practice being vulnerable for yourself and start noticing how you feel in your body. Because what I noticed was that my body started to feel lighter. I wasn't carrying as much when I started to just be vulnerable. And again, when I'm saying being vulnerable, I am not talking about, oh, I'm just soft and gushy all the time. I'm just talking about being authentic in the present moment. If I'm sad and I'm crying, that might be the vulnerability I'm expressing. If I'm joyful and ecstatic and orgasmic, that's the vulnerability I'm expressing. When we're being authentic,

we have a gateway to being vulnerable. And hopefully, I believe that that's what most people want to feel. They want to feel like themselves. They want to feel it in their bones. And that's something no one can give to us except ourselves. But at the same time, when other people see it, I think it also can remind us like, oh, it's safe to be me. It's safe to be authentic. That's beautiful. It really is. Cause it's like, yeah, we, I mean, we can only be as vulnerable as we allow ourselves to be. And yeah, that's deep. I love it. I really do because that, that touches the next subject of intimacy. A few weeks ago, I talked to a sex coach on, on this podcast and we just touched on different forms of intimacy, basically sex related.

And I know that intimacy is also another scary word on a certain level, but what other forms of intimacy are there? Because there, I feel like there's so many different forms. It's not just sex. I mean, when you talk about, oh, it's the actor, it's even, you know, I think there's so many different ways that you can practice intimacy. Absolutely. And and I think one of the challenges is when we start to make intimacy synonymous with sex, we start to limit ourselves and limit the connections that could be fulfilling to ourselves. so first I would say you know there's ways we can be self-intimate to me what that looks like is you know what does it feel like when I just sit with myself phones away computer closed and I can just be with myself I'm taking a walk I'm in my house I'm cooking I don't know it's just me and

me what's my relationship am I enjoying it am I having fun am I feeling anxious you know like the first thing I think is we can build intimacy with ourself. So that's one, right? And, and that's, I'm not saying that's the end all be all, but I think that can be an entry point for those who perhaps are noticing intimacy with others is difficult, or there's some betrayal stuff that's still being worked through, like building that intimacy with yourself. Another part is for me, a huge part of intimacy building has been with nature, has been with, you know, the more I grew up, very city, I grew up in New York city from the Bronx and now living in land that is way more and in California where there's way more of a culture of hiking, let's go take a walk. Oh,

there's a beautiful trail an hour away. Like this is what you do. You get outside, you take in the ocean the forest all the different land types you know what I started to notice was as I started to spend more time outside even just hiking by myself walking by myself I started to really feel connected to the land and and I remember you know what it was I went to Maui in 2021 right as a sort of right at the place where the pandemic was one of the places the pandemic was taking a shift. So it was still not a lot of visitors, you know, not a lot of airport travel. And I remembered getting there and I went with someone who I was kind of involved with at the time. And me and his relationship was totally shifting into non-sexual. And I remembered feeling

so held by the land there. So fascinating, wanting to engage, wanting to touch the trees, wanting to smell the flowers, wanting to put my feet into the water. And I just thought, wow, this is a different kind of intimacy than when you live in a city, what you imagine is possible. So I'd also say sometimes we're going to find it with nature, hiking, with bodies of water, with animals. We find that we can let ourselves tap into that part of ourself that is, I think, that little tender space that allows for intimacy, because on some level we have to have some kind of guard down to connect intimately. And again, also intimacy can be with friends. It can be with hanging out. It can be with our parents. It can be with our children, with our family,

our pets, our animals. So that reminder that intimacy is about how we feel with a person, how we feel that we can see the other person and allow our full self to be seen it is not just sex although sex can also be one of those places where we really let a certain part of ourselves be seen and allow ourselves to see another that's great yeah I on that nature part the first time I ever went to Hawaii I felt so uh my this is my words but I felt high a natural high for it was just this energy there that I'd never felt anywhere else same with the air and you said the the beautiful trees and the ocean and it was just like I got like almost like tingly feeling it was just very, um, almost outer body, uh, outer body experience. And I was just like, wow, can,

can really a piece of land make you feel like that Hawaii every time it's something magical there. So I, I do agree. Like I was living in New York city for nine years too. And, and recently moved to a place where they're outside quite a bit and, you know, trails and it's wonderful. And it's, but I almost have to force myself out of that. Like I, I enjoy it when I'm outside and I'm actually doing it, but it's, it's a learned behavior for the last, you know, 10 years, I've got to make a shift and actually a mental shift and get out and explore. So, um, but yeah, that's a, that's an amazing point to have. Like you can be intimate with that and animals, you know mom and dad any anybody that's I mean you are having intimate conversations sometimes

or just having intimate moments where you're sitting together or touching you're holding hands or just you know little touches or or anything so yeah yeah we're open for it you know it's like I was at the supermarket the other day and I was so tired I didn't sleep well the night before and this woman was we were on the same line and she just was like how's your day going. And she was so sweet. And I was so appreciative of her, like meeting me where I wasn't at. She met me where like my highest self was. And I immediately remembered my highest self and could drop in with her. And we shared such a sweet and simple exchange that felt intimate. That's a good point.

So sometimes our intimacy is just going to be like a, you know, with a stranger on the street, with someone helping us for a moment, with someone carrying our bags to our car at the supermarket and making eye contact, I think is also such a, such a huge intimacy part. And I think a lot of humans are conditioned to think intimacy means talking with each other nonstop. If it's not sex, you know, it's, we talk, we don't, we, we, we don't hang up till three o'clock in the morning. And I also would say like, one thing that I've really enjoyed learning is how to be intimate in the same room as people and not actually talking to them or necessarily doing anything with them that sometimes just sitting together when maybe

we're both reading different books or, but just being in the same space present and what we're doing can create intimacy and connection. I love it. I love these like tools. I hope everybody loves it too because i think this is amazing i mean you have so many wonderful things lol i mean so many nuggets um yeah i i think this is awesome really really cool stuff uh i just want to really touch on i know you also talk about mental health issues quite a bit uh and i know that can range from depression and anxiety and i mean i feel like after covid everybody had some form of Whether it was like, oh, I have social anxiety now, but it was just this craziness. I think, and I know Mental Health Awareness Day was yesterday and I missed it by a minute, but I just wanted to say that I really, really respect what you do and love what you do because I think there needs to be more people because I don't feel like there is enough help in this issue. And I don't know if maybe now today, because people are becoming more comfortable and less of a stigma and it's okay to have, you know, help through an issue, you know, and I, and I imagine, and I know just from friends that are African American, that this is also huge, that it's not okay to be depressed or it's not okay to have an issue, right?

the struggle doesn't need to it's almost like and i don't know how or where that came from and i'm sure you do um but is that um do you find that especially working with black women that they're not okay it's not okay to feel that way have you had that uh repetitive you know well my approach And I see this actually in American culture at large, regardless of race, if you've been generally socialized and brought up in America, USA, I think there is still a big, the majority is like there's some stigma around having depression, having a full range of emotions, quite frankly, which is why we see, I think, it acted out in so many perverted ways, in so many violent ways. is often because we don't have, we're not supporting people when they're children and growing up to have a full healthy range of emotions, right? How often, you know, do we hear people telling their kids, be quiet. We're like, I'll give you something to cry about, you know, all these different things that in some ways are really normal. And I imagine some people would be

like, what's the big deal. And in other ways, right? Like they impact then as an adult, what one will think is okay for them to feel or what makes them lovable right and then it goes into relationships like ah I can't feel angry so I'm gonna I'm gonna like try to push down this part of myself and just be nice and happy and then all of a sudden one day I'm just gonna explode yeah um so I see it at large and then I think you know my one of my passions is working with black women I recently this summer ran a group a six week long process called the vulnerable black woman healing the codependency and caretaker wound, which I think, you know, many, so much of my work, especially with women in my practice is around healing codependency. And I'll just

say really clearly for people who are listening, the way I consider codependency is taking care of others at my own expense. And I think that the wound for black women, and I imagine there's different wounds for different types of women and people that's specific to their culture, But I can speak to the one that I have been privy to, which is that, you know, in a country like the USA, where literally Black women were breastfeeding, you know, white people's babies for centuries and literally taking care of families and being the nurturer, being the mother energy for whole groups of people, including their own. I think that there's still some remnant right of like I should be able to do it all I should I should be strong I should be able to be a superwoman and that oftentimes when we're in that and I've been in it trying to do so much and show up looking perfect and be perfect which is impossible I've given it up but nonetheless I've noticed it doesn't allow intimacy when we're

constantly busy, when we're constantly trying to look good and do things that are not even self-righteous, even things that are important to society, that there's a way sometimes if we're so caught up in that, we don't get the love and nurturing we need. And so I'm not saying it's one or the other, but my inquiry is like, how do we balance it? I still want to be of service to society at large and to my community. And I also want to get my own needs met. I want to have time to go on dates. I want to have time to get massages. I want to have time to get a pedicure. I want to have time to be on a podcast and chat. So that balance. And I think for me, it's a passion because I just see that oftentimes the people who are projected onto as the hardest are actually the softest underneath. And I know personally that it takes courage to make that kind of change in our lives where we're being rewarded for pretty much taking care of everyone else and not ourselves, to really turn that around and say, hold on, I matter too. and actually that means I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try to show up and do everything for you

so that's me synopsizing it hopefully in a way that's somewhat girl I felt you I mean I could do yeah and I you know the thing with this is I do believe that so many women of different races can relate to this um and my experiment this summer in running this group was really to see you know, what happens when, when black women from a very diverse background, Caribbean, African, American, mixed people, mixed black women, mixed black, white, mixed black, Asian, et cetera, come together and have this conversation. I bet it was beautiful. Yeah, it was, it was quite profound. I'm sure you've healed a lot of, um, or started a healing process, which is huge so that's amazing and I'm so great literally I'm so grateful for your work I think

it's so important I think people need to know more about it and that you are around to help so I ask one question and then I'm gonna ask uh to obviously where people can find you but what was your favorite date and what was it oh my favorite date okay I'm just gonna go with the first one that comes to my head which is um with my current boyfriend our first date we neither of us have like super high expectations we're both kind of like whatever let's see what happens we live down the street from each other um so we met up one evening and we met um and had drinks and then we rented those like city bikes or i don't know they're called different things we got bikes and we live right next to like a three mile uh circumference lake that's really

beautiful like in the evening time there's lights strung up around it and I had never done it at night I'd actually never gotten one on one of those bicycles but I love bicycling and we rode around the lake and then we found and we were like enjoying each other's company so then impromptu we like found a taco truck and got food and it just turned into like a little adventure and I loved it because we were just present with each other and I felt safe enough to go on an adventure with this man and I was having fun I felt like I wasn't having the sort of pretentious like fun like I was in Birkenstocks and jeans and and I felt very aware like oh I get to be myself here and I noticed there was something that even a, you know, $500 dinner can't, can't substitute for a date that

I just get to fully be myself and be comfortable. That's amazing. Well, you connected right with your authentic self. Yeah, I think we both did. That's wonderful. I love it. I just love hearing different dates and why, why that was so awesome to them. And usually 99.9 times they are somehow some way they, they just felt loved or connected or authentic. And that's, that's huge. Well, I would love to open this up to where our listeners could find you, um, on social media websites or so on and so forth. If you'd like to promote anything that you're doing right now. Sure. Thank you. If you're interested, you can find me on social media, on Instagram at soulistic wellness, S O U L I S T I C wellness. And that's also my website,

soulistic wellness.com. I have up and coming actually a Kundalini yoga and meditation workshop on the Scorpio new moon on October 25th, Tuesday at 5 30 PM PST. And the theme is around working with our sex energy in correlation with Scorpio, since Scorpio rules our sex organs and rules sex of also getting in touch and de-stigmatizing our sex energy. Ooh, I love it. It seems appropriate for this conversation. That's amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time, Shirley, to be on the show today. And I'm, I'm a hundred percent. The listeners will take some amazing information and you're wonderful and beautiful and have a wonderful day. Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me in for

this beautiful platform. Yes. Okay. Have a wonderful day. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. Come and hang out with me on Instagram at Celeste Moore image. Let me know your thoughts on today's episode, because I always love hearing from you all. You can find all the links and resources in the show notes of the episode on my website, Celeste Moore.com. Okay. That's all for now. I'll see you in the next episode. See you next time, friends.