Moore Style - Uncovering Codependency with Vanessa Bennett

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Codependency has been a buzz word since the 1980s but what is it actually and how is it impacting our relationships? Today I speak with Vanessa Bennett who is an expert in this topic.  She outlines how codependency research has evolved, generational trauma, desire types and we even unpack the patriarchy! This woman is incredible and we could have talked for hours.  I can guarantee you will learn something life changing in this episode. So grab some tea, coffee or go on a walk because we are getting down and dirty!    In this week’s episode, we discuss:  [1:17] About Vanessa Bennett [1:52] Vanessa and her husband’s new book, “It’s Not Me, It’s You” [5:22] Codependency from Vanessa’s perspective  [9:04] Codependency vs. hyper independence  [11:08] Generational trauma  [13:06] Tools people can use if they don’t have access to therapy  [16:13] Attachment theory  [20:02] Underfunctioning vs. Overfunctioning  [25:06] Desire types  [29:25] How the patriarchy has impacted men  [32:55] What to do when you’re not feeling a relationship anymore [38:36] What’s all this fuss about the spark in a relationship  [43:06] How to stop self sabotaging and finder deeper connection  [48:39] Advice for when starting a new relationship [53:10] Vanessa’s favorite date    Connect with Vanessa: Website Instagram  

Hi, everyone. I'm your host, Celeste Moore, and you are listening to the Down and Dirty podcast, aka the Double D's of dating. This is a podcast for navigating the ins and outs of modern midlife dating. Here, we will discuss the challenges that men and women face in today's dating world. Like many industries, this one is forever changing, and I believe this platform will help those who need or want it. Today, it is the best time to take control of your desired outcome, whether it is a marriage, significant other, life partner, or just to gain the confidence in dating once again. Every other week, we will dive in and talk about different viewpoints that seem to be challenges in today's dating arena. So let's get into today's episode.

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Down and Dirty podcast. As always, I'm your host Celeste Moore. Before we dive into today's episode, let me introduce my guest today. Her name is Vanessa Bennett. She has the title LMFT. She is an author, licensed holistic psychotherapist, clinical entrepreneur, and mental health content creator. Her therapeutic approach integrates years of study and practice in depth, Buddhist and yoga psychology. She co-hosts the Cheaper Than Therapy podcast, leads a soul-based retreats and workshops, and creates and facilitates curriculum for nonprofit and corporate training events and conferences. And I will definitely tell you where you can connect with her at the end of this. But she did just release a book called

It's Not Me, It's You. So thanks again, Vanessa, for being on today's show. And yeah, let's talk about this book. I mean, this is some juicy stuff in here. What got you to decide to actually write the book on this, on these subjects. Yeah. I mean, I think that because my partner and I are both therapists and we, I guess, really started seeing the parallel between what our clients were consistently coming to us to work through in their interpersonal relationships, as well as what we were personally dealing with. And it started to become really obvious that a lot of people think they have this misconception that therapists have their shit together. and we're here to bust the myth that we don't, we struggle with the same stuff that everybody does.

And it became a book of let's put together. I always say like the top 10, I guess I should go back and count how many chapters there actually are, but the top 10 kind of issues, right. That all couples are dealing with, but that we also deal with too. And so it just felt really natural to dissect the different struggles that we had in a way to kind of serve our clients so that they can see themselves in our story, but also see how we work through and handle those struggles as therapists ourselves. I absolutely resonated with something that you just posted on Instagram. And this is not even in my thing, but I just wanted you to know that you're talking about the struggle, like having this mommy persona, right? Like you're

always in this mom role, even without the kids. Like I am also the oldest of, you know, five and had this role from a very young age. And I find that I do it. I love it, but I also find that sometimes that's not the best. It's not the best to do, right? Like, especially in a relationship, no man wants to, well, not the right man, not the healthy man wants to be mommied. Yeah, well, that's the thing. I mean, we get into these very unhealthy, unconscious dynamics, right? And in the beginning, usually it feels great, because it feels familiar. But then what happens is some of these roles that we fall into eventually just kill arrows, they kill our desire for one another. And so, you know, it's, it's not that somebody who, let's say, falls more on the mothering side, and then the receiver who falls more on the like, I like to be mothered side, can't actually be in a healthy relationship together. It's just that both people have to be really open and aware of their kind of habits and patterns and what drives those patterns and be willing to be uncomfortable in the attempt to change it.

And so that's another thing that him and I deal with. I mean, we write about that in the book. You're not my mother, not my son, you know, and it's very common. We see it in clients all the time. Yeah. It's such a powerful thing though, that you were able to take your own experiences, especially you know, with your husband and like, and talk about that because I don't think, I don't think that we're, we're really aware of some of the things that we do. And we're wondering why maybe

this relationship doesn't work out or why I'm having these issues, but I think it's something else, but yeah, I'm so grateful for, for this book and I'm so excited for everybody to read it because there's something in this book for everybody in a relationship. That's what I love about it. So what do you think the core reasons why, well, first of all, codependency is unhealthy in a relationship, in a healthy relationship? Yeah. I mean, the way that I break down codependency, I think it's a little bit different than most just because I think I've come to the understanding through my own personal work, but also so much work with clients, really understanding, well, first I'll say that I have a background in depth psychology, right? So my

approach is a lot less behavioral oriented and a lot more oriented on the soul. So Jungian psychology is really called the psychology of the soul. And in many ways, we look at the collective just as much as we look at the individual, right? And when I sit back and I look at the collective, it's become very obvious to me that we are a codependent society. Codependency is just how we are raised to believe that relationship should look, relationship should feel. And so it's not that codependency is really this kind of like dirty, shameful word that I think has been used up until this point. It's really understanding that this is the air that we breathe. And so if that's the case and that's our baseline and we want to move more towards a healthy interdependence

in our relationship, we have to understand that we're going to be doing a lot of undoing of generations and generations of of kind of set up ways and approaches to being in relationships right so a lot of people don't realize that codependency underneath that falls so many different behavioral traits the easiest way that I like to describe it is codependency is just simply this if you're good I'm good if you're not good I'm not good right so my emotional state is based on somebody else it's based outside of myself my sense of being okay my sense of goodness my sense of worth is all based outside of myself. And so if we look at that as the umbrella term, and then we see what kind of behaviors fall underneath that umbrella, we can see how

codependency impacts every relationship, not just romantic, and how much work we actually have to do. And I don't say that like it's an uphill battle. I say that like I'm almost excited by the possibility of what can come when people really do start understanding codependency and start tackling how it shows up in an unhealthy way. So when you talk about the layers of codependency, are there maybe like a bullet point or they're all, does it depend on the person, the layers? Yeah, it depends on the person. You know, I mean, I, I, I have like what I consider my laundry list of codependent behaviors, but the way, you know, you don't have to check every single box in order to say like, Oh, I struggle with codependency. Just understand that you all

come in to a certain extent, struggling with something that would be considered codependent. And then usually what happens is different relationships trigger responses in us, different responses, right? So let's say in my work environment, I really struggle with people pleasing and I, and I'm like, oh, I don't really see how that works out in my interpersonal relationships, right? Like I don't really struggle with that so much, let's say in my romantic relationship. Okay. But do you struggle with not speaking up and not articulating your feelings? like when your feelings are hurt, do you find that you hold onto resentment? So that might be something that, that shows up in your interpersonal work. Right. And so I think there's a way that we

can say, I deal with different behaviors and different relationships. It doesn't necessarily mean I am or am not codependent. It just means like, this is how it manifests. Okay. And, and just recognizing those behaviors that this is not serving me. Right. I mean, this is like, okay, Well, it's not serving the relationship. That's really important for us to understand. I mean, I think a lot of people, I've heard this from people where when I speak out so much against these codependent behaviors, they feel like what I'm advocating for is hyper independence. And really what you've got is you've got codependency and you've got hyper independence on basically two sides of the same coin. They're kind of on the same spectrum. And then you've got interdependence

kind of somewhere in the middle. And so interdependence really just means like I am my own sovereign being. You are your own sovereign being. We come together in partnership. And again, that doesn't necessarily mean romantic. We come together and we respect the autonomy of the other person, right? I don't allow the inner workings of the other person to completely derail me and vice versa. I don't expect the same in return. And so I, we can see, I see it all the time in parents, how codependency can really affect the way that you parent and the relationship you have with your children. And so it's, it is about you and that's really important, but it's also something to keep in mind that this is also a healthier approach for the other person in the

relationship too, which sometimes can be a good motivator for us to get our ass in gear and do the work when we realize like for our kids, for example, right? Like, oh, I should be doing this for them just as much as me. And I know as a mother, sometimes that can be a better motivator almost than doing it for myself. Oh my God. And it's like, you just called something out at me in the last six months, I was like, Oh my God, I'm shutting down in certain instances in relation with my daughter. She's 16. Right. So we've had a, you know, a tough year, you know, it's getting better, but I'm like, Oh, but look what I'm doing. And it was like, I could see that I'm doing it. I'm like, this is not healthy. This is showing her, you know? So it's like, yeah, sometimes

they're a very strong reflection of the things that we're doing that we don't want to do, or we don't want to instill in them. And I know you said something just a couple minutes ago, and you were talking about there's layers and layers, and that's like generation, generation. And I just heard something recently about that we literally have, I think it's three generations back that we are born with genetics that were predisposed from like, it can be up to three generations of behavior. I actually would say it's probably even further back than that. Really? You know, you can look at epigenetics. It's an entire field of science, right? And so not just behaviors, but I mean, they're even starting to show the research on trauma, right? And how trauma

affects genes and then that's passed down generation to generation, right? So people who came here from Africa and slave ships and how that has actually encoded that trauma has encoded into their genetics. And now it was being passed down and is still manifesting today. Right. Or people who, you know, survived the Holocaust and how that has been transmitted down. And so it's really fascinating. We're, we're very much just only on the tip of it, but it's not, you know, it's genetic, but it's, there's a lot of it that we can unlearn. Yeah. And a lot of those behaviors that we can really take personal and radical responsibility for and say, this is hard. This is my go-to, this is my kind of gut reaction, but I don't have to fall into the same patterns

and behaviors as my parents and their parents before them. I can choose differently. It's going to take a lot of work, but I can do it, especially if I know that, you know, the next generation below me is going to benefit from these changes. Yes. Wow. It's so fascinating to me, but I love the fact that this is something that you're so strong and in like something that you went through and, and, you know, you're, you're constantly, you're helping these people. I, would you say that obviously if it's something that someone needs to come see you for, right, this is like, you're the perfect tool, but are there other tools? Are there other resources that people can practice or use? Or, you know, it's so hard for me to say something like that because

I am such an advocate of therapy. I feel like it's such in so many different ways. I feel like it's amazing and the best thing ever, but some people might be like, Oh, maybe there's something I can try first. I mean, there are a lot of great books. Yeah. Right. There's a lot of other great books out there too. You know, what I like to call the kind of like OG is in the codependency world. So you've got authors like Melanie Beattie who wrote codependent no more. Um, you know, I give that book with a caveat because Melanie Beattie and Pia Melody, who's the other kind of OG, they've been around since kind of the eighties. Right. And so our understanding of codependency has really evolved a lot since then. So when you read, for example, Melanie Beattie's

book, it's very much through the lens of addiction. She comes through the addiction world. Right. And so our understanding of codependency in the eighties, late seventies, when it first started appearing was very targeted towards the wives of alcoholic husbands. Right. And so that is really a lot of the lens through which she looks. It's not that it's not insanely helpful. I recommend that book to all of my clients. I always just say, keep that caveat in mind when you're reading it. So there's definitely books like that, that can be really powerful and really helpful. I think social media has become a really good tool. So being able to find somebody, you know, whether it's me or there's a couple of different people that I follow that are very

prolific in this world of, of healing codependency, that you can really start to see yourself in some of these behaviors that they're describing. The number one thing I would say though, is when you're going in to start this recovery work, especially codependency recovery work, it's all about personal responsibility. This is not about diagnosing other people. This is not about finger pointing. This is not about figuring out how somebody else could change or get better or heal, right? We're doing this about us. It's about looking in the mirror and seeing ourselves because that is also a tried and true kind of traits of codependence, just like addicts, because in our own right, codependency is in fact an addiction. Codependent behaviors are in fact

an addiction. We don't, we like to finger point. We don't like to take responsibility. Right. And so, well, if only this person did X, Y, and Z, I wouldn't feel resentful. Right. That's a great point. Yeah. And so there's tons of tools out there, but just know you've got to be in it going. I need to take responsibility for me and only me. You're not going into this work going, how can I fix somebody else? That's so you're going to miss the point. Yes. Right. That's just another thing that you're doing. Exactly. And so you really dissect the attachment styles too, in your book coming into, you know, I deal with a lot of clients that have been married and divorced or they've been in a long

relationship. And, you know, they're dating again, right. They're out in the dating world and they're like, well, I'm kind of, that's like what my wife did, or this is like, you know, he's, he's noticing these same patterns, but it's, I, I mean, I would like to think it's probably within him and it's the way that he is attaching to these new relationships. Can you talk just a brief little bit about the attachment styles? Yeah. So, you know, we go into a very top line of attachment in the book because I mean, it's an entire theory, entire body of work, right? So the absolute top line really is that attachment theory comes from, um, Ainsworth and Bowlby. And really what they did was they researched the actual early attachments, right? So mostly with

mothers because a lot of the research was done in the 70s and the 80s and how that impacts the way that we attach to our romantic partners our friends work our children when we become adults right and so attachments are really a spectrum I think we've really come to understand that they're not as fixed as we would like them to be humans love for things to be in boxes and again this is a response to people that we are relating to so in some relationships I might show up a little bit more anxious if that person's showing up a little bit more avoidant and then vice versa. I can actually fall into more of the avoidant space if that person's falling into more of the anxious space. So I hate to blow anyone's minds here and kind of burst your bubble if you're really set on

like, well, I am an anxious attachment, but it's not really how it works. And the newest research has started to kind of disprove that black and white thinking. Going back to what you were saying around, you know, the clients that are getting out of relationships, dating and starting to see these patterns, it's really important for us to understand that until we do the work on ourselves, we are going to continue to see the same patterns, different faces, same shit, right? So again, personal responsibility, this starts to, to turn around, right? I look in the mirror, it starts to become what am I, how am I responding? What am I doing? What am I attracting into my life? Right? And so I love with clients to say, you can do this work. You can go to therapy, especially if you're,

if you're single at that moment, right? Go to therapy, read the books, start doing this kind of inner healing, and then know that that's almost as if you're, you're a band and you're writing an album in the studio. And then what happens is when you get into a relationship or your children relationships, your friend relationship, your family relationships, that becomes like taking that album on the road to get the feedback from the actual fans, right? Because a lot of times they will write an album in the studio. You'll go out and you'll see that the fans respond really well to certain tracks and they're not really feeling certain tracks, right? It's a really good way for bands to get feedback. The reason why I use this analogy

is because we can't learn to heal in a silo. It's great to read the books. It's great to do therapy. Obviously I'm a therapist. I'm a big fan, but you got to put it to test, right? And that is what we do with interpersonal relationships. So we practice mindfulness. What is coming up for me in this moment, what is this person kind of activating in me? Right. And I need to sit and I need to pause and potentially do some journaling and potentially bring that activation to my therapist, to my coach and say, when they did this, this is what happened. This is how I felt. This is the part of that feeling that felt historical, by the way, because that's very important information. Because again, this doesn't happen in silos. Every way that we are acting in any given moment has history to it.

Like we're, we're, we're very simple creatures in that way. We're not just going to suddenly manifest a brand new behavior or response to something. A lot of times this is like built up over and over and over again, right. For a lifetime. So all that to say, hate to be the personal, well, actually, no, I don't hate to be the personal responsible therapist. I love to be the personal responsibility therapist and say that you got to do the work on you. Yes, I, I a hundred percent agree.

And when this happens, this is when I'm like, okay, I'm not the therapist. I'm only a coach. Let me direct you in this, in this area where you need, you know, get some growth and healing. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for that. I, this, I think this is the first time I ever heard of under and over-functioning. And when I looked at the, when I looked at what that meant, it's, you know, that one person that's basically has their shit together and the other person really doesn't. Yeah. That's, I just see these and you probably see a lot of relationships that come in and they've got this dichotomy, but that's just clearly not going to work. Right. I mean, you've got to have somebody pull some weight. One person can't do all the work in the relationship.

Yeah. I mean, this is a, this is another one of those interesting kind of dynamics because so first and foremost, we, by nature are probably going to attract the opposite it than us, mostly because it's our psyche's attempt to kind of heal. It's our psyche's attempt to understand. It's our psyche's attempt to actually get activated in an attempt to heal those wounds. And so the only thing I would say about the way that you just worded it is that it's really easy for us to think that the over-functioners are the ones that actually have their shit together. And it's the under-functioners that are the quote unquote problem. And that is not the case. The over-functioners are actually just as much

the problem as the under-functioners, which is what I would say for a dynamic, like let's say somebody struggles with a substance addiction, and on the other side, you have a codependent, they're both sick. They both have a sickness. They both have to work through things. It's actually not about one person being the problem. There's always two people in every dynamic, right? And so over-functioning, under-functioning really is just a way that we respond to anxiety, right? So some people, when they're very anxious, very stressed out, they respond to that anxiety by doing, doing, doing, fixing, doing, kind of going into this hypervigilant mode organization. How can I help? Right. And then some people do the opposite. They withdraw, they shut down.

And I give a lot of empathy to the under functioner in the book, because it's really important for us to understand that that doesn't come from laziness. It doesn't come from, I want to do nothing. And I expect this person to do it all for me. There's not usually a malicious kind of intent behind it. A lot of times the under functioner has a deep seated belief that they're actually not capable of doing things. They're not actually not worthy of doing things. They're actually not, they don't have the ability. Right. And so because they don't trust in themselves, they withdraw and almost like throw their hands up and allow other people to do it for fear of failing, disappointing, looking stupid, all of these things. And so on the over-functioner side

as the over-functioner, it can very much piss me off. Right. Cause it can very much look to me like you're just being lazy and you're expecting me to do all the work. Right. Yeah. But as the over-functioner, just like as the codependent in the relationship, it's really important that I look at myself in the mirror and say, so stop, stop over-functioning. You are keeping this cycle going. You are keeping yourself resentful. You are keeping yourself in a place of being burnt out and being stressed out because you keep over-functioning. Right. So let's pause. let's get to the root of where the over-functioning comes from, why this is my response to anxiety. It's most likely based in childhood, right? And start to look at the behaviors that come from

that anxiety response and start to break those bad behaviors and those bad habits. It's not about the other person stepping up and doing more. Again, put that finger back on yourself. Stop the over-functioning, right? Worry about you. Let them worry about them if they choose. yeah such a good point it's like redirecting that to the way that we're reacting to the situation and eventually you know hopefully this is something that can be worked on on both but you can only do this for yourself and the results will play out i guess right right right you're only responsible for you right in any given scenario you are the only thing on this planet that you have responsibility for that's it you know you know I have some control

another person yeah and I have a few clients that are married because I deal with the image side and like how to spice up your life with the men and you know they end up talking to me like I'm a therapist like I'm going to give them some answers but I think I'm just like the sound neutral sounding board but I see the dynamics between them well I'm trying to get her to do this well I'm trying to get him to do that and I'm you know and I'm just like oh my god that's got to be exhausting. Just you're not going to change. You're not going to just because you're like, you know, especially it's got to be the opposite. You're probably making that person, like you said, like a withdraw more. So I can see how that can really pose a problem, but yeah,

turn around, focus on yourself and see how you can. Yeah. That's a great point. Thank you for that. It's such a good point. I think the one thing that I can't wait to read more about is the desire types. That's really interesting. It just sounds so fascinating. So I didn't know that we have desire types. I didn't know that that was something that was even a thing. Can you talk a little bit about that? I didn't either. Oh, really? To be honest with you, this was actually new news to me within probably the year leading up to us writing this book, where I started to really look at research around desire because, and I will say, even since writing the book, my, my understanding of this has actually continued to evolve and grow. Right. So

I was very curious, like, why, why do we have this very kind of stereotypical story? Um, when people get it in long-term partnerships, right. Of like the woman who is frigid woman, who doesn't have sex and the man always wants it. And the woman never gives it, right. It just seemed like such bullshit to me. It seems so antiquated. And so I just started digging into what that was. And so there's been some research done around how, and I I'm, I'm doing this off the top of my head. I don't remember the exact thing, but I think it's about 70% of men essentially are in this category of what they call, Oh God, I'm blanking out now. Not responsive as the other. What is the, what is, what is the word I'm thinking of here? Celeste? Don't worry.

um responsive versus it's like in the moment basically okay we'll find it it'll come to me this is my my brain wiping in the morning so opposite of responsive would be essentially spontaneous spontaneous yeah it's okay those mom brain brain wipes right yes spontaneous okay so basically the research shows about 70 of men like basically qualify as spontaneous desire right Meaning they can feel a desire for sex before they're actually, quote unquote, turned on. And then the flip of that for women, about 70%, again, I'm not doing the exact numbers here, are the opposite. So they're more responsive.

They need to essentially be, quote unquote, turned on before they feel the desire to have sex, right? Yes. So we're coming at this from very different perspectives, right? And so I think, sure, we can say there's some biology component to this. You know, are men more visual? I don't know. I mean, there's different kinds of research that shows different things.

I think a lot of it actually has to do with programming. I think it has to do with socialization. I think that by nature that the feminine quality in us tends to be much more fluid, needs to be a little bit more aroused, needs to be kind of, it's very sensual, right? And so that kind of feminine nature really needs that, that feather fluffing, I think before they're like revved up, right? And I think for sometimes for men, and we see this in heteronormative relationships a lot, it's the opposite. It's like, oh, I could be thinking about you on my lunch break, and I'm ready to go, right? Like, I want to come home and have sex. And meanwhile, the partner's like, what are you talking about? I'm making dinner. The last thing on my mind right now, right? And so it might pose a problem, but the way I look at it is this is great to know because now we can start to understand how we can lean into our partner's differences and say, like, if I know that I'm more spontaneous, but my partner is not, I know that I have to put a little bit of effort into, you know, the romance and the wooing and the sensual touching and not just go for like the tit grab in the morning.

right? That's not going to do it. It's going to have the opposite effect. Exactly. I need to actually like touch her shoulder softly, you know, kiss her on the back of the neck, let her know I'm thinking about her, build it up throughout the day, make it exciting so that by the time I get home from work, she's a little bit more revved up. Right. So it was just kind of a mind blowing way of looking at this issue that I see happen so often in heteronormative relationships and to be like, oh shit, there's like a whole world here that people are not talking about that I think is really important. Yeah. I just didn't even know that there was an actual like subject type of world. I mean, it's something I teach men what women want, but basically what all that you said

about the responsive, you know, and I assume, and this is something I should never do as well, but like you said, about 70% of men are spontaneous and it just, it's, yeah, I don't know if it's the Y chromosome. I'm sure there's multiple things that actually, I do know that, you know, a lot of them are visual and stuff, but yeah, the fact that they can turn their brain, like think of something and then they're ready to go where we're. But I also think this is actually an important conversation that I've been having a lot more with clients recently in the group work that I do. It's, it's really an understanding of what patriarchy has done to both men and women. Right. And so the way that we raise our boys to become

men is very much with the belief that they are owed sex, that sex is something that they are just owed by nature of having a penis, right? And so now listen, I am the first person to say that nobody benefits under patriarchy. Men suffer just as much as women, right? We completely cut off entire sections of their humanness, their emotional, their sensuality, their connection to spirit and to soul and to God, right? And so we do a number on both. But if we're just talking about sex and sexuality and how often I see this kind of head-to-head combat that I get with my clients, whether it's a conscious realization or not, unconsciously, we essentially raise our men to think that this is something they are owed. And so they look at sex as a way to self-regulate,

self-soothe, feel emotions, feel connected to another being, feel connected to something bigger than themselves. We have cut off that ability for them in any other way than to have sex men are essentially taught you have two ways to feel those things have sex or get angry those are the only two socially acceptable ways that they're allowed to feel and so they start to channel all of that desire and very human normal need to feel into sex right and so it becomes almost um the woman become almost like a masturbation tool it becomes a lot less about the woman and a lot more about the release a lot more about like the well i'm upset or i'm angry or I'm feeling disappointed or defeated. And so I need to feel better. And I will do that through

you. And women feel that they know when it's not about them. They know when it's not about connecting to me as a soul, as a being, and guess what turns off the libido. I don't want to be a masturbation tool. I want you to look me in the eyes and connect with me as a being. And if I don't feel like that's what's going on, that's going to shut down. Right. And so a lot of women also struggle with this. Like he just doesn't see me. Right. He just wants to have sex. It's all about the sex. And so we get into these very cyclical conversations and, and it sucks because we're, we're in this society. We're all in this together. And again, it's not a number on all of us, but here we are just missing each other. All we want to do is be intimate with each other and

have deep connections. And we struggle because a lot of the patriarchal kind of wiring that we've got. That's so profound. I mean, everything that you said is so on point with the way that we are raised and the way the, what we've accepted as women, as men and continue. I see it in my brothers. Yeah, exactly. You know, they're, they're mama's boys. I'm like, we're in a modern world and my family is like very liberal and very open and very like open to, to spirituality and new ideas. And it's like, I still see it. I love my brothers, but who does like the cooking and cleaning and they watch football. I'm like, so yeah. So it's something that we've got to like, yeah. Wow. That's thank you. That's, that's really amazing. I don't know if what, I think

you've talked about this and touched about this because, or it's something that's, it's definitely in your book it's what to do when you're not feeling it anymore right it's like oh I mean this has got to be such a a thing for relationships whether it happens at two years or you know five years or it could be three months depending on how you're simulated right or what I guess what keeps you you know that that feeling what do you I don't know I don't even know where to go with that, but I just, it's so fascinating because this happens all the time. Is it, is it like a common denominator that's, that's happening or that you're seeing in your clients or is it? Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple of points at play here. So I think number one,

if somebody comes and they say, you know, we've been in this monogamous relationship and we're not feeling it anymore. Uh, as, as a therapist, I might advocate to make sure that both parties have done essentially all that they can do so that if they do want to walk away, they don't walk away with that feeling of like regret, right? Like, did I try everything I could? And so we might talk couples therapy. We might talk individual therapy, some doing some of this attachment work, some of the different topics that we cover in this book, right? Have you really dug in and attempted to do this work? My partner, John has this kind of saying, which I love, which is when you start to feel in a relationship, like you're breaking up with yourself.

so in order to keep the relationship i'm actually like breaking up with myself so that is a really good indicator of this relationship may have run its course now what i will say too it feels very important to call out here is our culture's obsession with longevity as some sort of indication of success right and i am 1000 not a proponent of that. I think we need to get rid of this idea that somehow longevity means that I'm fulfilled and successful in my relationship. I don't want to celebrate somebody's 50th anniversary that they've been living in separate bedrooms for 30 years and hate each other's guts. To me, that's not successful. I'm not congratulating that. I would actually rather say congratulations

to my girlfriend who's getting a divorce after a year or two. Right. And is so beyond happy about it because they both discovered themselves more deeply. They feel like this relationship helped them grow and that it's expired and it's okay. Right. I also think that that would give us the ability to not hate each other so much when we end relationships, if there wasn't some kind of false promise of security and safety and foreverness, we could actually allow each other to just be the humans that we are and say, I love you. You've given me so much. Thank you. we've evolved. Can that be okay? Can it be okay that we evolve through and beyond and past relationships, right? Does it have to mean that somehow we have failed or we are a failure as a

person, right? And I think a lot of this has to do with our culture's obsession of like, you are less than unless you're partnered, right? We make people believe that somehow they as an individual person mean less to society than if they are in a couple, you know? Yeah, that's always struck a chord with me. I was married at a young age for a minute, literally like a year, year and a half. And I knew that this wasn't going to be a successful marriage. I don't know. I assume this is what people do. You're with someone for a little bit. This is the age. Just all these misconceptions. Did I listen to myself? Yes. Am I grateful? Yes. But it's also like, oh, well, my grandparents who were married forever and, you know, you know, why did you get divorced? Why didn't you try? Why didn't you, no matter what it, what I said, but because I got divorced, it was just like this, you know, not success. they didn't have that option. Yes. True. I feel a lot of, again, I feel a lot of empathy for the older generations, especially for the women, because getting a divorce wasn't an option. We, we actually relied on being married, especially to a man for survival. Right. I mean, we couldn't

even have a bank account until a generation ago. Yeah. True bank account. And so I feel a lot of empathy. I know the judgment comes from a real lack of understanding, but also I think deep down. And again, maybe unconsciously, there's a bit of jealousy in these older generations that are now saying, oh, well, people just don't try anymore. I don't actually think it's that we don't try. I just think it's that we realize that we don't have to be miserable. Life is not meant to just get through. Life is meant to be fulfilled and be passionate and be excited about every day. And if this partnership that I'm in is not actually benefiting, it's not the cherry on my Sunday, I don't have to stay in it anymore. Right. And I don't think that's actually alluding to

somehow that we're like throwing people away again. I mean, with love, like I I've reverence for everybody I've ever been in a relationship with because they have taught me so much about myself and I respect them all in so many ways. Um, but I'm not willing to live my entire life unhappy because I feel like I have to be partnered. And again, I think like your grandmother, for example, that's something she wouldn't understand. Right. Right. And, um, I feel sadness around that. Yeah. Yeah. But you make a good point. I mean, I think it was in the seventies like women were property. I mean, it was like, I was born in 76. It's not like, you know, not that long ago. Exactly. When you look at how crazy life and all the rules, like you said,

have changed. And yeah, I choose to live a happy, fulfilled life or whatever that looks like. And I knew it wasn't with that person, but yeah, that's, that's an interesting, just a couple generations ago, you know? Yeah. I think I really wanted to ask you really quick. I know you talk about like the spark, right? The, this chemistry that a lot of us are, it's ingrained into whether or not, like, if that's not there instantaneously, then I'm, I'm not going to give any thought to this person. Well, we could be missing out on so much, but do you think that this, you know, I partially agree with the spark can grow, but how much do you put into that growing that, you know, a possible spark until you're like, you know what, this is just not going to go anywhere.

I mean, yeah, I think that on the, on the other side of the spectrum of like, when do I give up, you know, give up on a relationship and say like, it's kind of run its course. I think in the beginning we tend to put too much emphasis on the spark. Right. And so I don't want to pathologize every good feeling. It feels great to be in love. It feels great to be in lust. Right. Which I would actually argue is a lot of what we think is love. And that's awesome. Right. And I would say that as a therapist, many times what I have seen is that feeling is laced with some history, right? It feels familiar. This person brings up a certain kind of response in you because it feels a lot like what you're used to or some kind of dramatic, you know, energy that you grew up with. It was

chaos. There was this push pull, right? You, you couldn't figure this person out. They gave you breadcrumbs or maybe they love bombed you in the opposite side. Like this whole thing that we get into where it's like, Oh, I just can't live without this person. I'm so like, I just want to be with them every day, every moment. I'm like, Hmm, that's interesting. We should unpack why, right. And again, not trying to pathologize everything, but a lot of times there's, there's something to be said for that feeling. Right. And so for many of us, if we don't get that feeling, we don't think that it's worth exploring. And for a lot of my clients who are single and are dating, I push them to explore it deeper, you know, allow that to kind of be a slow

burn. What's the rush? What's the rush, right? Now, listen, you're feeling those feelings and you look at somebody and you're like, I just want to jump their bones by all means have at it. Like I'm not, I'm not saying you got to wait until I'm not a proponent of that. I'm like, do you, you're an adult, right? But also if you're looking to have a healthy relationship, you might want to slow down and let it simmer a little bit because to your point, you might be really missing out on somebody truly amazing and amazing for partnership. If you're just looking for lust. Yeah. That's a good point. If you're really aligning your values and your beliefs and your goals, I feel that there's something a lot more solid than just like, you know, jumping the

hay. So, but, but yeah, I like the fact that, because I think so many of us and I'm, I'm single. So I'm talking about the, you know, the single people that are actively dating and are looking for that, like, Oh, you know, it's so ingrained in having that chemistry, that spark, and it's got to happen right away. And that's not the case I'm learning as, as of, you know, dated other people there's, I feel like it can, it can grow and it can be of some of substance, right. Instead of just the initial, like, Oh, he's hot or whatever. Yeah. I'm not saying you can't, you know, you've got to be attracted to somebody like a certain extent, you've got to find somebody attractive. You're not going to be like, I have zero attraction to this person at all. Let me

force it. Right. We're not going to that side of the extreme end of the spectrum. Um, but if you're like, Oh, I find them attractive, but it's not like, you know, they're not knocking my socks off. Well, give it a little bit of time. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a good point. That's kind of more what I'm saying. Okay. I love it. I just have like a couple more questions. I mean, I could talk all day with you. You're amazing, but I don't think people want to hear me talk all day. Uh, I feel that some of my clients are purposely like sabotaging themselves so that they don't get close, you know, like they don't get hurt. So they're not getting deep enough.

They're just really, oh, you know, I, I get this quite a bit and I don't know what it is, but I'd love to hear what you would think of how to stop self-sabotaging and like being able to kind of stepping back and truly getting, being able to connect with somebody on a deeper level. I mean, it's just like habits that, that are maybe worked in other situations, you know, coping skills, and this is not going to work so that you can really build this fulfilling relationship. Yeah. I mean, I think it starts with really asking yourself what you want, right. What do you want? And then a little bit of just holding yourself accountable for kind of walking the walk so we can talk the talk all we want and say we want deep intimate

connection but if we find ourselves every time things get a little too deep hitting the eject button or throwing a grenade into something or finding a problem to nitpick or right whatever the kind of sabotaging behavior is we're not living in alignment with what we're saying that we want we're not in integrity with what we're saying we want and so we need to ask why right And we need to sit with the discomfort that is the precipice of, or pre kind of pre pre-imps the grenade behavior, right? And so many of us hit the eject button so fast because that feeling of discomfort of potential hurt of potential, this, this, this, this is so overwhelming to our nervous system because none of us were ever taught to self-soothe through hard emotions. We eject or

we numb or we self-soothe in some other way. So I'm going to go out and screw somebody else. Right. Like I see a lot of this with infidelity, for example, and you know, we use somebody else just like one person's Jack and Coke, I always say is another person's people pleasing, right? Whatever your, whatever your thing is that you use to numb and hide behind, what are you hiding from? What are you numbing? It's really important for you to start to get to the bottom of, well, when I start to feel this way and then it's like, Oh, can I sit with that discomfort? Can I sit with myself? can I stay with myself through this feeling of potential annihilation? Because that's what it is. We're talking very big, this, this essentially this core fear that we have as a human being is

core anxiety, which is annihilation anxiety that I will be snuffed out that I will no longer exist. That is bringing up a feeling of abort, abort, abort, abort. Right. And then obviously later. So, and this is a process. I mean, it's with, with therapy, you know, a lot of this is it's about increasing slowly your capacity for discomfort. It's increasing slowly your range of resilience, we call it, you know, and I mean, this might sound silly, but there's even things like right now they're doing a ton of research on, for example, cold plunging. how ice baths are actually being used as a way to increase tolerance for discomfort in people's nervous systems, and then how that translates into actual emotional discomfort, right? And so there are things that we can start to do to kind of slowly edge out that range of resilience for uncomfortable feelings so that we don't reach for whatever our eject button is as quickly. So it's sitting with that uncomfortability a little bit longer and longer. And when you say

self-soothe, right? I know, I know that what that means for, for puppies and for babies and, and how does that, like, where did we miss that as a child? Is it, we, is that where we kind of missed the boat on how to like soothe ourselves? Everything's going to be okay. I mean, really what the idea of self-soothing is this deep knowing that I will be okay. Okay. I can feel whatever all consuming type of emotion that's coming up and no, it's not actually all consuming all emotions, whether good or bad, quote unquote pass, right? They're like waves. Um, but what happens when we're kids is that so many of us feel big feelings because you do. And that's what kids do, especially right when they're, their nervous system is not actually fully developed yet. Their

brains, their prefrontal cortexes are not fully developed yet. They actually borrow from our nervous systems. And because we, the parents never had practice in sitting with big emotions because either our parents, they themselves obviously didn't either. Right. So we've got generations again, they say to you, Oh, you're being too much. Go to your room until you're calmed down and then come out. Well, that doesn't teach me how to sit with big emotions. That shames me for having them, or they yell at you and they punish you for having big emotions. Okay. Again, that doesn't actually teach me to sit with big emotions. It tells me something's wrong with me for having them. And so I need to figure out a way to make them go away as quick as possible,

right. Or learn to hide them. And so there's a lot of ways that, you know, generations of parents have really, and I'm not blaming people. I mean, this is just what we learn. Right. I've never really taught our children that it's okay. You can feel a big feeling. You're not scaring me. I'm okay in my nervous system. I can sit here in the presence of you having a big emotion because I've practiced my codependency work and I'm not going to allow it to completely overwhelm me. Instead, I'm going to do some deep breathing. I'm going to sit here with this and you show you that you don't scare me. Your big emotions don't scare me. And that when you come through the other side, everything will be okay. And so that's a little bit of this, like I call it, you know,

it's reparenting work is like now as adults, because we didn't get that lesson when we were kids, we got to start doing it now. You know, otherwise we're just acting out as if we're two years old forever and ever. Yeah. Wow. Great points. Yeah. I'm learning so much. I really appreciate all of this. Let's say when a new, like a new relationship starts, how is it important to tell your partner, like your style of communication? I mean, how they're just in a brand new relationship. I mean, you don't want to say like all of this heavy stuff right away, but you also kind of want to prepare for like, this is kind of where I'm at and how I communicate. yeah I mean I would say just don't play games yeah the games that we play in dating you know

just be honest be authentic communicate the mess so if you're feeling a little disconnected or you're feeling like somebody's pulling away or you're feeling like some strange energy call it what it is yeah I'm starting to feel like some interesting energy like it feels like you're pulling away and the story I'm telling myself about that is I've done something wrong and so you're pulling away because of me. Right. Which is very important language because all of us tell ourselves stories. We don't know what's happening for the other person. And so it's really important that we not only communicate in the mess, but that we also say, here's the story I'm telling myself about what's going on. Right. I'm not saying that that's factual because there's no

way for me to know if it is. I'm just saying, here's what it's bringing up for me. Right. And then we lay it out for the other person to then respond to how they're going to respond to. I don't know that you can upfront say to somebody, check, check, check, bullet, bullet, bullet. Here's my communication style, because here's the thing. When I'm not activated, I feel like I know my communication style. Well, get me activated. That shit might change. And so when you're at the beginning of a relationship and shit hasn't gotten really heated yet, you know, I don't know that you're setting yourself up for a lot of honesty. If you're like, well, I'm a very easygoing person. I really get upset. Exactly. Exactly. It's less

about being upfront about what you think your communication style is, and just really trying to own, um, the stories that we tell ourselves when anything starts to come up in that relationship, very communicative about it. I think you're the first person who's ever said that this is what I'm, this is the story that I am telling myself because we all do it. That's a Brene Brownism, by the way, definitely. And I, I, I have read her books, but I don't know why I just picked that up now, like for what, how maybe it was a delivery, but I, it's such a, it's such an important piece because I think we all like, you know, don't make assumptions, right? The four agreements, like we all do, but it's like, okay, but this is how I'm interpreting it. And the other practice,

yeah. And practice that's huge. It's one thing to know the four agreements. It's another thing to actually practice them in your communication. And that is a really powerful tool because I'm feeling some sort of way, my initial response is to blame you for it. But what I'm not doing is I'm not communicating to you why that is. I'm not communicating to you. I feel this is reminding me a lot of the dynamic I used to feel with my dad. And it's starting to feel a little bit like I'm being punished. And so the story I'm telling myself is I did something wrong and I'm being punished for it. Right. Like being able to actually put those words out there, that's vulnerability that builds intimacy, that builds trust. And so many of us don't communicate the

quote unquote mess. So many of us like wanted to, you know, we want to be proud. We want to protect ourselves. We want to come at it from ego. And also we, we don't want somebody to see us messy. Well, then you're really kind of keeping yourself from potentially a very vulnerable connection. Yeah. That's a really good point. Get messy, get vulnerable because you're not going to connect with the right person too. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I can't wait to read your book. I have to say, I haven't read it yet. So I'm going to be honest. I have read the bullet points and I have read enough that I I'm going to really wanting to read this. So I know that I fall under a lot of categories. So I'm looking to always,

you know, grow and be a better version of myself and bring myself to the world. So thank you for that. And your partner, he was a co are you co-writer? Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. We coauthored it together. That's so exciting. I love that. Okay. One other question. And this is just for my clients or people listening here to get to know you a little bit more. What was one of your favorite dates and what was it? Ooh, my favorite dates. That's a really good question. You know, what's funny. The first thing that came to mind was actually not a romantic date. It was a friend, a friend date. Okay. And I kind of love that that came up because I think we, again, put too much emphasis on romantic love and not enough emphasis on actually platonic love. We attempt to make our

partners be too much for us. They, they can't be everything to us all the time. And so I was just thinking for some reason to pop into my mind probably because I was recently telling my partner this story that so far in my life almost 40 at this point my 26th birthday was my favorite birthday because my best guy friend essentially said to me I want to plan your birthday and I was like cool and as the over-functioner as the person who's like no no I've got this I'm gonna do it right so I'm gonna do it myself right it's like only time yeah literally in my entire adult life But I trusted this person so immensely that I was like, awesome. And I just showed up and it was truly one of the best birthdays and parties I've ever still to this day experienced because I had no concern leading up to it. I just felt so taken care of and so held.

And so like, I just trusted him immensely and he blew it out of the water. And, and it was an amazing night with all my closest people. And I still, to this day, kind of hold that as a way that I know that I really like to be made to feel loved and kind of be shown love. And so, I mean, as you can probably tell, listening to this, I'm an acts of service person. Also the oldest thing tends to be an acts of service person, right? That's where I was the one doing the acts of service.

So it just felt really loving. And so I, I think of that as probably my, my most favorite like date, even though I love that. I love that. Yeah. That's amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that. And where can people purchase your book, listen to your podcast, find you for any other services? I think you have a, you have a group. Is it sound therapy? No, it, no, I'm actually starting. It's coming out soon. So I've got a couple things in the works. We are actually creating an online community that's going to be starting in the next month. Different kind of, you know, my partner, not my romantic partner, but my best friend slash business partner, who also is my co-host on my podcast. We do a lot

of group work. There's so much healing in group work. And so we're going to be, we've been doing groups for years. We do a ton of retreats every year. And so we're going to be launching a private community that's going to be kind of sectioned off into different groups, depending on what it that you feel like you want to, you know, work through at that time. So you can stay tuned for that. You can also sign up for my email list at my website, just Vanessa Bennett, so that you know exactly when it's launching, probably going to get some discounts when it comes out, but Instagram, Vanessa S Bennett podcast is cheaper than therapy. And the book is available everywhere, including audible. If you're more of a listener. Awesome. Thank you. I have listened

to your podcast, by the way, and every episode is so awesome. So yes, you have to listen, read her book. And yes, even your group therapy sounds fascinating. So thank you again so much for coming on today's show. And I look forward to reading your book. So have a wonderful day, Vanessa. Thank you. Okay. Bye-bye. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. Come and hang out with me on Instagram at Celeste Moore image. Let me know your thoughts on today's episode because I always love hearing from you all. You can find all the links and resources in the show notes of the episode on my website, Celeste Moore.com. Okay. That's all for now. I'll see you in the next episode. See you next time, friends.