Morbid - A Sit Down With Chapman & Maclain Way, Directors of "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga"

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Today we are joined by Emmy award winning film directors, Chapman & Maclain Way to discuss the wild story behind their Netflix Documentary "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga". This documentary was expertly crafted and features the often unbelievable folklore surrounding the 2013 Presidential Ricin Attacks. Haven't watched it yet? Check it out by visiting https://www.netflix.com/title/81903247 Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. Wait, before we get into anything, this is not what we planned. So hi. I'm coming and off. What's happening? No, I was just going to say, I just realized we've been doing morbid for four years. I know, that is really wild. That's like bonkers.com. I know. It feels like a hundred years and two minutes. All at the same time. All at the same time. Yeah, like it feels like this has always been like our our schick, our thing that we do together. Like, I don't remember life before. And I also feel like it just started.

Yeah, it's a weird-ass feeling. It is. It's been very weird, but very awesome. Very great. Very great. And you know what? Speaking of very great things, you guys have really liked the Butcher and the Run playlist that I made.

If you didn't like it, I would question your sanity, to be honest, because we listen to that playlist in the car a lot. and it's pretty bum. I, it was really fun to make. I made it a long time ago, actually. Like, I made it well before the book was coming out. It was just something I made to get me in the mood for writing. I was going to say, because it was like your writing playlist.

Yeah. And it was just like things that I pictured in the book and everything. So when it came time to be like, hey, you can share this with everybody. It was like, ooh, fun. I know. But also, like, kind of terrifying. Because it's like, this is how I see the whole thing. But you guys have been awesome.

And it seems like you guys have really dug it. I appreciate it and you guys rule. And I literally can't wait until September 13th for you to read this book because I just can't wait. I can't wait. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. You guys have been so fucking amazing.

And yeah, I'm just really excited. I'm going on a little road trip in a couple weeks and I'm going to bring your book along for the ride so that I can finally finish it because I've read the first like future. I've basically read the whole book because I got to read it while you were writing it. And I've read the first few chapters, but then I've been like a little bit. I've been a little busy. I've been a little busy. I'm busy to read your book. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, I'm too busy to read your work. No, I'm not. I have. And I'm gonna. And I'm gonna. And then can you write another one? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I already, I'm already writing something else. Hot take, everybody. I'm already writing something else. So stay tuned. There's like a couple times a year that I wish this podcast was visual. And that was one of them. Because I was just like, because you were like, oh, but it's not happening. So don't ask. No, I'm just kidding. No, we're not doing visual. No, no. No way. If you saw what we both look like right now, holy eyebags, Batman. And what we're wearing right now is really very much who we are as people.

Yeah, I know we're not supposed to banter, but we're only two minutes in 48 seconds in. Yeah, it's okay. So I'll describe the latest much. No. We were on the phone with my grandma, and I said that's hot because I am wearing a Simple Life t-shirt that has-s. She sure is. Paris and Nicole on it. Drew got it for me for Christmas. And it, It's my favorite shirt. It's like them and like the overalls, like the farmer picture. Yeah, like that farmer picture. And it just has the simple life and tinkerbells on it too.

And that makes me happy. So I said that's hot to my grandma. And I was like, oh, that's because I'm wearing like my Paris Hilton shirt. And she was like, oh, and what's Elena wearing? And I was like, um, my grandma doesn't know what stranger things is. So I was like, she's wearing the shirt where a girl is levitating over her friends who are sitting in a circle in a graveyard. They're a little concerned about her, but don't worry because Max's favorite song,

Running Up That Hill is playing by Kate Bush. It's a great sweatshirt. I'll post a photo of it. And I'll link the Etsy shop that I got it from because they were great. And it's a very comfortable sweatshirt. Oh, hey, it's an Etsy shirt day because I think Drew said he got this off of Etsy. There you go. Cool.

Well, and I know a lot of you are like me and you're obsessed with stranger things. And I know that this is something that a lot of you will like. so I'll post it so you guys can scoop one because I don't know what it is about white sweatshirts. They're always the most comfortable. I don't know what it is. Elena and I have a theory going that there's some kind of science behind a white sweatshirt because I recently bought one from the Giggly Squad podcast, which does say I hate men. I don't hate all men, but you know, it's a cute sweatshirt.

And it's so comfy and it's white. And I think there's some kind of science behind them. There is. There's got to be some kind of science. It's comfy because you'll never wear it because you'll get it dirty. There you go. That's what it is. But yeah.

But yeah. But that's been the fashion segment of today. And now we should always have one of those. I think we're ready to jump right into it now. We are. We are going to start in kind of a weird place. Today we're going to be talking about the disappearance, the abduction of Heidi Allen.

But we're going to start in a little bit of a place that we usually wouldn't start at, which is the search for the missing person that we're talking about. Okay. Heidi Allen. So Richard Tibodeau had become involved in the search for Heidi Allen because he was one of the last people to see her alive. Heidi vanished from the DNW convenience store and gas station on Easter morning in 1994, and Richard had come in that morning to grab a couple packs of cigarettes before he and his family, you know, went about their day to celebrate Easter. So Heidi rang up this

transaction. This would be the last transaction of the day at 7.42 a.m. And according to Richard, you know, the two of them wished each other a good day, maybe said happy Easter, and he headed back out to his van and headed home. Now, later that day, he realized Heidi had gone missing. So he called into the police to let them know he had been at the DNW that morning. So the police come out to his girlfriend's family's house to take his statement. All very routine. His statement was pretty normal. He said, after he bought his cigarettes, they went home. Then he got ready with his family, his girlfriend, and she had two kids, and they were like super close. Like it was a super close family unit. they get ready, they go to her family's house, and as they drive by the D&W, they see that there is some police presence.

And they're like, oh, just like kind of in passing comment to each other, I wonder what's going on there, but don't think too much of it. Yeah. Until they see the news segment. So his girlfriend, Teresa, and her family, they were like, Richard, you got to call the police, you know. Maybe you saw something that you don't think is helpful, but will become helpful to the investigation. And so the police are trying to talk to everybody who was there that day. rule them out as suspects. But the police weren't so sure that they should rule Richard out as a suspect.

Ooh. Because they had received a tip from a guy that called Chris Bivens. He interestingly enough was actually dating one of Richard's family members. Oh. Now Chris said he remembered driving by the D&W store that Easter morning. He said it was sometime after 8 a.m. And he said as he was driving by, he saw two men arguing with a girl out front. And then two days later, he called back and remembered,

that the trio were arguing next to a two-toned van. Okay. Who owned a two-toned van? Who? Rich Tibido. Uh-oh. So when Richard arrives at one of the first searches following Heidi's abduction, the investigators, they pull him to the side. And they're like, hey, can you fill out this form?

Just going to ask you a bunch of questions about your story, you know, the investigation, what you think happened, what you would do. And, you know, it's really just to rule you out as a suspect. So just go ahead, fill this out, let us know when you're done. So he was like, okay. I'm going to fill it out the best I can, finishes up, pans it over. And the investigators are like, okay, cool, thanks. Would you and Teresa, your girlfriend, mind coming down to the station and answering some more questions?

So they're like, sure, definitely hairs are starting to rise on the back of the neck, getting a little nervous. But they agree. Yeah. They would be at the station much longer than they anticipated that night. And that night would mark the start of a confusing web of an investigation, a takedown of two men, this county and just years, like close to 30 years with unanswered questions. But before we dive into that, you need to know about the girl who vanished, Heidi Allen. So Heidi Allen, first of all, she just seems like the tits. Like she seems awesome. Of course. She was born September 14th,

1975 in New Haven, New York. Her parents were Ken and Sue Allen. And she was like the quintessential Virgo. She had all her ducks in a row. I love it. Her family was like super, close. Most of them actually lived on the same street. And her sister Lisa remembers growing up with Heidi and just how sweet she was. She said that she would share her lunch at school with kids who didn't have enough. Oh. Like she remembered a specific instance when Heidi got home and was like super hungry. She was in elementary school. She was super little. She was like, oh, I'm so hungry. And they're like, why are you so hungry? You had lunch at school. And she was like, no, I shared because like so and so didn't have enough. Oh my God. What is sweetie. Right? And that young to just have that inside of you.

Exactly. And then when she got older, she became an intern at the elementary school. And this was something she was doing because her goal one day was to become either a teacher or like a children's counselor. So she's an intern at the elementary school. And she forms this club for all the kids who have divorced parents. And she calls it the banana splits. Stop. And it's just so that they can all have a place where they can go and talk about how they're feeling and just know that there were other kids in their situation that they could relate to. That's so emotionally mature. And mind you, she was 18 at the time she disappeared. So she was probably like 17 or 18. That's really emotionally mature. Yeah. And the banana splits.

So cute. Oh my God. Right. Adorable. And she was also known as a bit of a tomboy. That's exactly how she described herself. And her sport of choice was volleyball. She actually played on her high school team.

And actually, she was pretty tall. She was 5-11 and she was also just super talented on the court. Get it, Heidi. So she became known to her teammates as the Tower of Power. Hell yeah. Isn't that awesome? Hell yeah, she did. Now, so she's working hard in school.

She shared her lunch with other kids. She's making sure, like, children of divorced parents have a place and outlet where they can talk, killing it at volleyball. And on top of that, she's doing all this other stuff. But first, I have to tell you, she was absolutely beautiful. Yeah, she was. Like, beautiful. She had piercing blue eyes, but the older, like when she was a baby. but the older she got, they turned hazel.

Oh, I love that. Of one of your littles. Yeah, one of my babes is doing that right now. And I read this and I was like, oh, like, it just like hit home for a second. Now she had like this sandy brown hair. It was like kind of blonde. It was like brawn, blonde and brown. And she wore it super curly.

I'm pretty sure she got perms that like, and she saved up the money and paid her for her perms herself. Of course. That was the look. Oh, you always know what I'm about to say. I said she had the perfect 90s loop. There you go. Now, like, it's true we say this all the time, but, and it's just true regarding everyone we say it about, she just seems like somebody that you would want to be friends with.

Yeah. Like she had these kind eyes. She had a super sweet smile. She had dimples. Like, yeah. I just want to be her friend. And she just seemed genuinely sweet. And on top of that, like I was just saying, she was super smart and she was determined to set goals and follow through on them. In a tiny apartment in Southern California, two college dropouts teamed up to create a watch company that broke all of the rules. It's got fair prices, unexpected colors, and clean original designs. Movement grew into one of the fastest growing watch brands, shipping to over 160 countries across the globe, and I can see why, because these watches

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It's really cute. It's just like sleek. Movement watches have the look and quality of a $400 to $500 watch and you're paying for at a department, like you're paying for at a department store, but they cost a fraction of the price because they were built online and own their process from start to finish. You get a beautiful watch shipped right to your door for free, and if you don't love it, ship it right back for free. I got to spend all day in front of my computer, by the way, and the Everscroll blue light filtering glasses are an absolute game changer. I used to get a ton of headaches, but I'm not

getting them as often anymore. It really helps with eye strain and poor sleeping patterns, and I really just like the modern style that they have of the frames. They're super cute. If you want to elevate your look with style that doesn't break the bank, then join the movement and get 15% off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt.com slash morbid. Again, that's mvmt.com slash morbid. So her senior year, she was actually taking extra classes at the local community college so that she could graduate not only with her diploma, but also her associates, so that she could get a head start on the degree that she wanted to earn, which was in human services. That's amazing.

This girl is just like, truly, doing it all. Yeah. Now, by the time she was getting close to graduating high school and basically almost finishing her associates, she had filled out more than 150 applications for jobs in her field. Wow. And she would share that she was willing to do whatever it took to get the job. They actually found one of the applications that she had filed. And on it, it said, I'm willing to work from the bottom to do anything. I love this field and I'll start anywhere.

That's amazing. That's somebody who's like in a job for the right reasons, like wants to do this, knows that they might not be able to do exactly what they want right away and is willing to climb the ladder to get there. And that's somebody that's going to go far because somebody who understands that nine times out of 10, you got to start on the bottom rung of the ladder to get where you want and they're willing to hustle that way. They're the ones that are going to work to get there. Totally. Yeah. And she was, she was like putting in work every single place she went, it seemed. She'd been

working at the DNW since she was 16 years old, all while doing school and everything else at the same time. So she wasn't just paying for perms. She actually used some of the money that she made at work to buy herself her own car, which was a maroon Pontiac Sunbird Station wagon. Yes. Yes, like very of the time. Amazing. But it was unfortunately still parked in the parking lot of the DNW when the police arrived after hearing that Heidi had gone missing.

You always forget, like you were just telling me how awesome she was. And I'm like, man, she just sounds great. And then I completely forgot that this is why we're here. Right. That's the thing that sucks is like you find out so much about these people and you relate to them and you find like the hazel eyes. Like you find a little something. And you're like, oh, cool.

And then you're like, oh. And it like hurts. Like your heart sinks. Because you're like this person like, you can never get to know this person. This person was never able to live to their full potential. No. Yeah. And all their goals and dreams that they set for themselves were taken away by somebody else.

By some idiot. So Heidi actually wasn't even supposed to be working that morning, which speaks to her character even more. She had switched shifts with a coworker so that that coworker. could spend time with her family that Easter morning. Wow, okay. Yeah. So Heidi's just a wonderful, wonderful human. She is. She celebrated Easter with her family the day before, and she handed out presents to all her family members while she sang like songs from Peter Cotton Tail. Stop it. Just so pure. You're breaking my heart here. I know. It's, I was reading and I was just like, oh my God, it just got heavier and heavier. Now, so that would obviously be the last Easter that Heidi got to spend with her

family. And for the next 28 years, the town of New Haven would question what really happened that Easter morning. But before we get into everything else, I do just want to share a quote from Heidi's sister Lisa that just describes Heidi to a T. And doesn't Lisa have a podcast? Lisa does have a podcast. And it's called one sister's journey dot, dot, dot, keeping it real. Oh, nice. I love it. Yeah. So she said to check that out. Yeah, definitely go check that out. And she said of her sister, I want people to know that she was a good kid. She was one of the most joyful and selfless people, and I can only imagine she would have been an even more beautiful adult. She just wasn't given that opportunity. That's horrific. It is. And like I think of you when I read that. Yeah. Like or like any of our

family members. I can't imagine just like having to talk about my family member like that. Because you live your whole life with your family members, especially if you get along with your family members, which we do. Yeah. Sitting there thinking like man, like I always say, I'm like, man, like even my kids, I'm always like, man, I can't wait to see what kind of adults they are. Like, it's just going to be, like, a fun thing to watch them become the person they're going to become. And it's like, her sister was like, oh, you know, like, it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of adult she is.

And when that gets just, like, taken away. Right. And you're like, I never get to see that. And I knew how great you were going to be. Like, yeah. I knew you were going to, like, move mountains. I just can't imagine feeling that. Like, I feel it in my heart a little bit.

Yeah, it like hurts. And we feel it on a level that's so far away. Like, yeah. from the actual people. It's just awful. It's just really sad. So that morning in 1994, honestly, it started off pretty normal. It was rainy and the roads weren't in a great condition to drive on. So Heidi's boyfriend Brett actually followed behind her as she opened up the store that morning. That's sweet. They had been dating for years at this point. And over the years, like, people thought it was weird that sometimes he would open the store with her, like he would sit and

watch her open the store. But I think, like people were trying to say it seemed controlling, but I think he was doing it in a sweet gesture kind of way of making sure, you know, this is a convenience store. Like, it's not the safest place in the world. And she's a young girl by herself. Yeah. I think he's just making sure that she doesn't run into any trouble. Yeah. I mean, I can say, like, I could see John doing that in not a controlling way. And I just want to make sure you're okay. Yeah, 100%. Because when I, like, when I would work like nights at the hospital, he was a basket case worried. And there were times when he was like, let me just drive you in and pick you up. Like, I don't want you to drive by yourself. I don't want you. And it wasn't because he was like,

I need to control you. It's like, I just want to make sure you're okay and I'm worried about you. Exactly. So to me, that's what that feels like. That's definitely what I think it was. Opening a convenience stores, like that's like a risky job to have. Convenience stores get robbed all the time. Like that's a really scary job to have a lot of the time. So it makes sense. Yeah, exactly. I think he was just being a sweet kid. It comes off that way to me. And by all accounts, they were very much in love. Brett would later say that Heidi would drive completely out of her way just to give him a kiss goodnight. Oh, my God. And she would help him iron his clothes. Adorable. Like, and they planned to start having kids together once they were in their 30s. I am obsessed with them. They seemed very much in love. And by all

accounts, it seemed like Heidi loved, loved him. Yeah. So they made their way inside the store. They opened up right around 5.45 a.m. Brett stuck around, I think, for about an hour, it seems, as Heidi got everything set up. And once people kind of started rolling in, getting coffees and scratch tickets and siggies, all that, Heidi seemed like she was good to go. So Brett gave her a kiss, and he said, I'll see you in the afternoon. Because they had plans to celebrate Easter with his family that afternoon. Now, after that last transaction at 7.42 a.m., a few more people actually came in and out of the store. And the police knew this because some customers had left money on the counter in good faith for whatever they purchased. But finally, though, somebody realized that the

clerk hadn't stepped outside for just a second. She was gone. She was nowhere to be found. Now, as this person is realizing this just by happenstance, a sheriff's patrol car was passing by. It was right around 8.15 a.m. And somebody at the store kind of motioned him to come into the parking lot. Now, this person told the cop that the DNW seemed open, but there was nobody around, and the situation just seemed off. So the cop steps in. inside and he notes that there's cash on the counter. There's cash in the register. The register's still there. There were signs that somebody had been working that morning because behind the counter sat Heidi's jacket, her purse and her keys. And like I said, her car was parked right out front.

Yeah. Now, her family was called Straight Away. And when her cousin Melissa, who everybody called Missy, found out that Heidi was missing, she ran home right away and she started posting her photo all over missing posters that she just immediately started hanging up around town. Just like got to work straight away. Now, the poster had a photo of Heidi from her sister Lisa's wedding and her description. A white female, 5-11, about 145 pounds, light brown, blonde hair that she wore very long and curly and blue hazel eyes. The day that she was missing, she was wearing jeans with a gray sweatshirt that had a plaid logo

across the front of it and white sneakers. They also said that she would either be wearing glasses or contact lenses, and she had pierced ears. And when we share a photo of her on Instagram and socials, I will also share the progress photos that have been done over the years. It was clear, though, to the police that Heidi was not a runaway. Like, this whole situation, like all of her stuff was still at the... Yeah, it doesn't make sense. She has her own car, and it's still here. Yeah.

It doesn't add up. She could just leave in that car. Very much. And she would have had, like, if she was going to run away. Yeah. But they were like, no, she was taken from this store against her. Well, it's clear as day. It's just a matter of figuring out who would have wanted to hurt her or abduct her and why.

Now, the county where she lived was one of those places where everybody knew everybody and every last detail of each other. But there were some things among the community, excuse me, that just remained unspoken. It gave off the vibe where, like, people would leave their doors open because nothing bad happened there unless you are part of the drug scene. Oh. The drug scene in this area was not something that you wanted to become involved with because there were plenty of people using and selling drugs. Specifically in this area, it was marijuana and cocaine at the time. But that specific community obviously wanted people to keep their noses out of it all. And if they weren't going to, then things could get violent very quickly.

That's really scary. And shortly before Heidi's disappearance, she had told her boyfriend that there was a man who appeared to be on coke, excuse me, cocaine, who lived near the dead. D&W who was coming in the shop regularly and freaking her out. Okay. And it was something of note to the investigators as they started working. So the investigation of Heidi's disappearance was interesting. Oh, no. Yeah.

And you'll see why I feel like. We never want to hear that. Yeah. You're going to see why I feel that way definitely in this episode. But in part two, because by the way, this is going to be two parts, you're going to be screaming in the car or in the shower or in your house while you're cleaning. Or right next to you. Yes, you'll be screaming right here. Good. You particularly can scream right here.

So first things first. Roadblocks were not put up until the day after Heidi went missing. Good. That's like, that's really helpful. That's like using an umbrella the day after it rains. Yes, that's literally what that is. Are you like, what? They've had an entire day to leave. Exactly. And she went missing in the morning. Yeah, throw them up. That's the thing. The police had started working on the search, like an hour and a half after the last purchase had been made that morning. but for some reason didn't think to put roadblocks up until one full day later. That doesn't make any sense. No.

Like a full day later, they're like, oh, you know what? That's a good idea. You know what would have helped yesterday? Throwing up roadblocks. Let's try it today. Well, and the thing that sucks in, I hate to say this. But if roadblocks had been put up on day one, I wholeheartedly think she could have been found. That's infuriating.

Because whoever took her, obviously put her in a car and drove her somewhere. Yeah. Why would you not put them up? Like, what? What? That's infuriating. And at that point, it's even more infuriating that amber alerts weren't even a thing yet. Oh, yeah. It's so, and I, in my mind, just because they've been around literally since I was born, I'm like, why didn't they put an amber alert out? I know. We take, we, we like take for granted that these things have been around for most of our lives and all of your life. So it's like, things, even like 911. Yeah. That you forget that that wasn't always around. And it actually wasn't around, you know, in the very near past. It was when it's not. Yeah, it hasn't been around. that long really, which is crazy to think about. Yeah.

Like we were just saying, you just feel like it's always been around. Exactly. So, yeah, roadblocks have been around for a while. And the knowledge of putting them up is pretty useful. But there's that. Now, in addition to that bullshit, I read this book called Scrapped about the disappearance and the investigation. And the author's Lisa Peebles and John O'Brien noted that usually in the state of New York,

if there's a big case like this, the state police would take over the investigation. Because the local police, especially in this state, community, they didn't have a ton of experience with cases like this. Yeah. People just didn't go missing in this town. Like, people were not murdered that often in this town. Yeah. But the New York State Police were called off early in Heidi's investigation because of two cops that had beef with one another. Oh my God. The local sheriff, Charles Nellis, I believe is how you say it, refused to let Jack Doyle, who was the head of the state police, have any part of the investigation simply because they didn't like each other and there was

some kind of like unspoken competition between the two of them. So it's just two tiny men swinging their dicks around at each other. Literally. With a missing girl. That's the thing. It's like, let your ego get in the way of finding an 18 year old girl on Easter morning. For sure. Yeah, for definitely. Yeah, I'm rooting for you. Now, Mario Cuomo, who was actually governor of New York at the time, called in the National Guard himself to see if they could locate Heidi because he was like, what the fuck are you guys doing? Somebody should do something. But try as they might, they just kept coming up with dead ends. They were searching all over the place and of course in spots that the average person wouldn't be able to handle. They would pick up like anything they found, any article of clothing,

soda cans, anything hoping to get DNA. They filled up more than 12 bags by the time the search was called off and not a single item in any bag could be traced back to Heidi. Jeez, what happened? So Heidi's family was not pleased to say the least in the beginning of this and they actually ended up coming up with their own reward in the hopes that, that the $20,000 might motivate somebody to come forward. They also featured Heidi's case on America's Most Wanted, and they were still coming up with nothing. So that was when they made the decision to call in the help of the FBI.

So there was a man called Clint Van Zant, who actually worked at Quantico. Oh, wow. And he was specially trained in analyzing serial killers and sexual predators. He actually was involved in two pretty high-profile cases, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, and Timothy McVeigh. Whoa. He predicted their characteristics pretty much down to a T. Jeez. So in his professional opinion, whoever had kidnapped Heidi would most likely try to insert themselves into the investigation somehow. Okay. Whether that would be a tip or calling back over and over again to follow up on that tip,

maybe join a search party, they would just want to feel a sense of closeness to the aftermath of what they'd cost. Which how fucked up is that? How fucked up is that? And, I feel like that happens a lot. Yeah. Because we've covered like a bunch of cases, I feel like, where the person responsible was in the search party. Yeah, because if you think about it, like shitty people, all they want is attention. Yeah.

That's all they want. Like, they want attention. They want to feel powerful. Usually because they don't have any power in their own lives. So they try to create it outside by like just making misery. So they'll do things to get attention on themselves, even if it's negative, because it gives them some sense of. like I matter. Right. And that's what these people do. It's like they do these horrible things

with no regard for human life that they destroy. And then they insert themselves into the investigation so that they can hear one a thank you for a tip or like and just sit there and be like, I caused this. Yep. And now I get to be a part of it. It's so fucked up. It is. And like especially if they're involved in the search, it's like you're looking at these desperate family members. And for them, they're getting off on that. Yeah, because they know miserable people. like to create other people miserable people. Have you heard the phrase misery loves company? It's so true.

And it's true in like every aspect of life. Miserable people on every level, be it murders or like, you know, trolls on the internet. Yep. No matter what kind of level they're at, all they want is to create misery that they can feel like, like they've created it because they don't feel alone. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's, it's so fucked up.

Are you an FBI profiler? Yes. Yes, I forgot to tell you. We're four years into this and Olena's like, I actually have a third job, guys. Surprise. Well, the FBI profiler, Verif Van Zant, also said that if there was any kind of sexual motive in this crime, then the person responsible would potentially record their crimes in some kind of writings or drawings or collect articles written on the crime, which is weird because we just watched the little things. Oh, yes. And that happens there.

There you go. Now, if they had a connection to the victim that came up in the investigation, that they would likely be closely following, they would try to explain it away in the most logical way they could. Yeah, that's what he said. Now, I personally feel like all of these characteristics are embodied in somebody that we're going to talk about in part two. So like I realized I recently, no, so like I recently realized, I always say, keep that in your back pocket.

Keep it. It's in my back pocket. I was listening to an episode of Mourbid the other day, which I don't usually do, but I just wanted to hear this one. I was going to say, wow. Well, I don't because I don't like to hear my own voice. No, me neither. That's like my own. Yeah, yeah.

I like to hear yours. I like to hear yours too. But I realized I say that a lot. And I was kind of looking over some of my old like case notes and I was like, why do you always say that? That's funny. But I'm going to keep going with it. Yeah, it's yours.

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So the police did not have much to go on at all in this. investigation. There's literally no DNA evidence. There's no fingerprints. There's nothing. So that was until they got a call from that Chris Bevins about the two men arguing with the young woman in front of the store near the two-toned white van. Now, Chris's girlfriend, who again was related to Rich Tibado, she said that Chris really just liked to be in the limelight and really loved the attention that he was getting. Okay. And then she followed it up with letting them just know that he was not too intelligent. Okay.

So I think she was just trying to say, take what he says with a grain of salt because I'm not so sure about it. Yeah. Exactly. She's like, you know, I'm not going to call him anything. I'm not going to say it. Just take with this what you will. Yeah, I think she was really good at compliment sandwiches, I feel. But the thing was, the police are fucking desperate for any information on this case.

And they want to know more. So they're like, all right, we're going to take what he says with a grain of salt. like we might be calling him back. Yeah. But then another call came in and also noted something about a two-toned van that was, quote-unquote, driving erratically later in the day that Easter Sunday. Hmm. And then a man who had been inside the DNW at the same time Richard was called in a tip of his own.

He said that he saw Richard inside the store and he parked his car right in front of Richard's van. Now, the man said he was pretty sure there was another person in Richard's van because while Richard was in the store with him, the man said he saw the van move while he was inside. So like somebody else must have moved it. Now, I don't know. If that was true, then was Richard one of the men that Chris Beavins had seen at the store, Bivens, excuse me, and perhaps the other man was somebody he knew and someone who joined in on an argument that he was having with Heidi for one reason or another.

Huh. So to be sure, the police are going to have to call Chris Bivens once again. now they call him again it's about ten days after his original tip and they decide to call him up and have him come down to the station to chat now in the days leading up to that the police were asking around town specifically now about richard tibino he's become a suspect and any other men that he might be connected to and in their questioning they learned that richard had a brother named gary and they also knew that gary had actually met hidey on probably more than one occasion they were sure there was at least one occasion Okay. They seem to have met some time in early 94 at a bar where Brett, her boyfriend, Brett's brother, worked as the bar manager. Okay. Now, rumor had it that Gary had some kind of crush on Heidi and that he made her uncomfortable because he told her boyfriend that he found her attractive. So there was some kind of weirdness going on there. Which also, why would you do that? Yeah, but I feel like sometimes dudes do that where they're like, this is my girlfriend. And then their friend is like, wow, she's so hot. Like that's so weird. And you're like, I'm not a piece of meat.

Like that's so, I don't know. That's just weird to me. Yeah, it is. Like to go out of your way to be like, hey, I find your girlfriend attractive. Like, okay. It's weird. Like, you can't do anything about it. Yeah.

Like, I've been in that situation before and just been like, okay. And you feel like, I'm sure Heidi just felt icky. Yeah. I mean, and then I can, I guess I can devil's advocate this a little bit because the more I thought about it. I'm like, well, you know, if I meet my friend's new significant other husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, like, whatever. Sure.

And I'm like, I can be like, wow, like, what it like, he's so handsome. Or like, she's so gorgeous. Like, you know, like, I can say it that way of me not being like, I'm attracted to them. It's just like, hey, they're like just, they're just pretty or they're just really a good looking person. It all comes down to what Gary actually said in his tone when he said it. And unfortunately, none of us were there. I was just going to say, and that's exactly what it is. So I think you can look at it both ways.

You totally can. My initial reaction was like, what the fuck, Gary? Well, and so was everybody else's. But then I'm like, okay, I guess if it was just like, wow, she's so pretty. Right. But it's like, it was noted that it made her uncomfortable. Well, and that is the, that's the golden thing here is it made her uncomfortable. And that's what matters.

And that's all that matters here. Exactly. So they find this information out and they're like, okay. So maybe it was Gary that was with Rich. And maybe those were the two men who were arguing with the girl that. Chris saw, Heidi, Rich, Gary. Is that the scenario? So they were like, let's call Chris and see if he remembers anything about the men that fit Gary or Richard. And this is the part in the investigation where you're going to want to punch things. Cool. I love when that happens. Yeah. Because for the,

for some reason, the first part of their interview with Chris was not recorded. Why? Why does that happen? I don't know why that happens. But like, we know why. You're going to get caught. You're going to get caught. It's the same thing. We reference the West Memphis three case all the time, but it has so many little pieces that fit into other cases so well that like Jesse Muskelly, like they didn't start recording his until they made sure that they got him to understand the story they wanted him to tell and understand what. And he didn't even tell it right then. Just putting that out there. Yeah. You actually just summed up what might be happening in the next like three paragraphs. That seems to be why we get a oops. We didn't start recording for three.

hours. And it's like, oh, because you were making sure that you could figure out how to make them confess. Exactly. Yeah. So first hour, not recorded. No. Once they were done there, they first had him at the Central Square PD. Once they were done with him there, they went to the new sheriff's headquarters, and a recorded statement was taken this time. Oh, okay. Now, Biven said something about being low on gas, but being worried about pulling into the the D&W because he thought he saw some kind of domestic dispute unfolding. Now, I just want to say, he's gathering all of the following information as he's driving by. Okay. That's all I'm going to say. Yeah. So he said that he saw one guy and as they were arguing, he said one of the guys held the

girl behind in a bear hug. That's how he described it. He had her in a bear hug from behind. And he said, she seemed to be hysterical and struggling. Oh. But in his opinion, it just, seemed like she was going through something and she was mad at one of these men and bivins you know just driving by in his car said you know i just thought maybe one of them was her boyfriend and that they were like breaking up or something and she was hysterical about it that's how they see us guys that's how they see us okay okay that full well could have been Heidi Allen being abducted and this motherfucker chalked it up too she's sad because her boyfriend's breaking up with her and also um okay even if that was the case, why would you just ignore the fact that now he can physically assault her because she's

upset? Right. Like we're just... A man has his hands on the physically upset woman. It doesn't matter what the fuck is going on. No. This man is physically assaulting a woman who is hysterical and trying to get away from him. Yeah. Even if you don't want to involve, which I get like you don't call someone. Like maybe you could, you don't want to escalate the situation or something. You pull over and you call police. That's the thing. It's fine. It's fine. you don't want to go over there. To be honest with you, I wouldn't want to go over there. Because you don't know what's going on. You don't know who those people are. You don't want to like, he might have a gun. You never know. But you call someone. You pull over and you call the police. I would be like,

I don't know what's going on, but it looks like she's in trouble. There's a domestic dispute out front. And I feel like you got to get here right now. And also, it's just a lot to chalk up for a situation involving three people you literally don't know. That's my favorite part is just like, well, I was driving by and I saw this quick scene. I now know. all of their backstories. I know their relationships. I know that she is a hysterical woman. That's just who she is. And that poor man is just trying to, he's just trying to control her. Because she's going to go crazy. It's like, you literally don't know those people. What? Like, you don't know those people. And how do you know she knows those men? Like, she's hysterical and trying to get away from one of them. That's the thing. I'm like, I kind of believe you're a girlfriend when

she said you just like to be in the limelight. Yeah. Because that's a, That's a wild narrative to pull from driving by something. And also, don't assume it just makes an ass out of you and you. Yeah. Not me. It's true. It's stupid. So he said there were other cars at the pumps.

But he couldn't describe any of them other than the van that he thought belonged to these two men, which was also at the pumps. And at this point in the story, he said that the three people were now walking toward it. So when asked to describe the van, he said that it was either a dog, Dodger a Chevy, and that it was between 1979 and 1988 for the year make. And he said there was a stripe going down the middle that was dark blue. Okay. Now, Richard did have a van that was two-toned with a stripe down the middle, but it was a black stripe.

I mean, dark blue, black. That's an easy one to fuck up. It is. I will give him that. Also, I always think of, like, the years when they're like, when they're like, it's a car between this year and this year. I would have no fucking idea. I'd be, I'd be like, I don't know.

it's a car that is between the invention of the automobile and now. You could also. Like, those would be my years that I'd be able. I'd be like, it was invented. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I could tell you it's a Toyota. I don't know what Toyota. Yeah, I could barely tell you that.

Drew. It's a car with four wheels. Drew had a Toyota for like years and I could not remember if it was a Camry or a corolla and it was parked in our driveway every day. Yeah, I'd be horrible at that. So I'm always astounded when people can like actually close in on years. It was a car on four wheels. Yeah, it was, it was.

It was within the last hundred years, I think. It had a horn, I think. Yeah. There was no horse and buggy, so it was a car. Yeah. So pretty good on the car. Pretty good description. Yeah, because that black and blue thing, I think you could easily.

Totally. I knew you would play double advocate there, and I knew I wouldn't be able to argue with you. Yeah. Now, he then went on to describe the men that the girl was with. So one man was described as being about 10 feet away from the other man who was following behind holding the woman. So we have one guy ahead, about 10 feet. and then these two people, guy and a girl, guys holding on to girl following behind.

Totally normal. Yeah, totally normal. Definitely. So the man in the front ahead of everybody else, Chris said he's probably about 5-11. The other guy, he said probably around 6-2 because he's taller than the girl who was probably about 5-11. Heidi was 5-11. He said the solo guy in the front was older and hunched over. He said both men were white, but he didn't see their faces.

Now, one of these statements that he made was handwritten and the other one was typed. But interestingly enough, the handwritten version has a lot of contradictions when compared to the typed version and even with the spoken version. Huh. The handwritten statement makes the solo guy who Chris described as 511, 5'6. So we're shrinking him five whole inches. I was going to say, like... We're shrinking this man's almost half a foot. Yeah.

Now, some people wonder if that guy has a different description because the deputies may be chorused Chris into making the guy in the front description match Richard Tibido. Because Richard Tibido was right around 5'5. Oh, okay. So they're like, oh, let's call it 5'6 because, you know, like how would he get it like on the nose? Yeah. 5.5, that works. Now, the officer who typed up the handwritten took quite a few liberties to the story. or just omitted things completely.

He did not write down the height of the man who was holding the woman. Now, remember, Chris had originally said this man was probably around 6-2 because he was taller than the girl who was quite tall herself, 5-11. The officer did write down that the girl was 5-11, but nothing about the man's height who was holding her. Not a specific number, not if he was shorter, not if he was taller. These are all, like, basic things that you write down in a state. Like, this is wild.

And they're, like, you need to have. have a height written down for one. And he gave you one. And he gave you one. So write it down. Yeah. And you need to write down the one he actually fucking told you. It's not like filling, it's not mad libs. No. So with all the height stuff out of the way, the officer decided to take one more liberty to say that the van was parked near the pumps, rather than at the pumps, like Chris had said it was. Later on down the road, there were also posters with Heidi's information on them, but they seem to have decided to shrink her actual height and advertise that she was 5-9 rather than 5-11.

What? Could that be because the second man that they wanted to fit this narrative was Gary? Gary would still be taller than her if she was 5-9, not if she was 5-11. This is shady. Now back to where we started this because it's going to get a whole lot shadier down at the station, baby, with Richard Tibido and his girlfriend, Teresa, being brought in for questioning. That's where we started. So once the couple arrives at the station, they are immediately separated.

And the cops who are talking to Richard want to go over his story with them one more time. He went through the whole entire thing again, woke up Easter morning. I smoked Teresa's last cigarette. She would have been pissed, hopped in my van, parked along the front of the DNW. Wonder why they changed that it was at the pumps. Ah, look at that. parked in the front of the D&W, grabbed his siggies, wish tidy a good one. Now then he made his way back home, one about Easter with his family.

But then he called that Tippin. And I think the cops were very stuck on the profile that Van Zant had come up with, saying whoever was responsible would likely insert themselves into the investigation. And I think they were trying to apply that to Richard Tibido because he called later that Easter to let them know that he had been one of the last people at the D&W that morning. Was that his way of inserting himself in? the investigation, I could totally see that. I will hand that right over. 100%. But then if you look on it from the other side of things, and he hadn't called in to tell them he was there that morning,

and then they found out that he was the person who made the last transaction, that would also look very shady. Yeah, there's no winning. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. And you would, I know that that is true that like people, like we just said, people do people do love to do that. They love to insert themselves. That is a huge thing that a lot of criminals do. And remember he showed up at the search. Exactly. But on the same token, it's like, but we also want people to come forward and say tips when they have them. Right.

And not feel like they can't because they're going to be looked at like they're just trying to insert themselves in. So it's like that's a slippery slope kind of look at things to take by the investigators because it's like, well, you want people to call in tips. Look at Chris Evans. Where would you be in the investigation without his fucking tip? Yeah. So like I get why they need to like, I get that why that. that's like floating around in their head a little bit. I get that, but like to like really nail him for that would not be great. So far, exactly. Now, I could see maybe where they thought he was going

above and beyond because apparently he put a big sign up on his house that said praying for Heidi A's safer term. And he also had posted her missing person's flyer to the back of his van, like in the back window. Okay. Which is also helping the investigation and you want people to do things like that. But you can look at it from Chris Van Zance point, or Clint Van Zance point of view and say, is he just like, that is a little over the top. And that's driving around with it on your van and knowing that people are thinking you're helping when you know that you are part of it. Absolutely.

Putting it on your house, knowing that. Like, I get that. I totally get it. But then I also see it as he was one of the last people to see her and maybe he feels some kind of weird connection. Or like, Survivor's guilty. Yeah, like, he's just like, man, if I had seen, if I was there at a different time, maybe I could have stopped something or maybe these people would have left because I would have

been there. Right. So I can 100% see both sides so far of why they would think certain things and why it's not awesome to think. Same here. Same here. And I will say too, this like going to play devil's advocate again, like I see why they're, why they're thinking that he's inserting himself and all that and like the sign is weird.

But at the same time, this is a super small community and an 18 year old girl just went missing. Tons of people are putting up signs for. this girl and leaving signs in the back of their car with her information. So yeah, it seems like it's like kind of a tight-knit community. It is. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe it was the small town guy in him, but as far as the police were concerned and now

given Biven's array of statements, they wanted to get access to that van and have it thoroughly investigated. And again, I get that. 100%. Like clear it. Rule him out. He's a suspect. And I, I've always said, overdo it.

Yeah. Like to be proven wrong. Absolutely. Nobody's going to get mad at you for going above and beyond. Absolutely. Because that's the thing. You have your suspects. Your whole job is to rule them out until you have the Primo suspect.

Exactly. But unfortunately, he seemed to be the only suspect getting investigated. Uh-oh. So they want to see if there's any kind of DNA in that van that could place Heidi there, hoping that it's going to be an open and shut case. Yeah. But first, they had a couple more mind games that they wanted to play. So in the room with Richard, they said, guess what?

Teresa's in the other room singing like a canary. She's telling us everything. We know all about that morning, Richard. And Richard's sitting there like, I don't know what the fuck she's telling you because what I've told you is the truth. I'm not involved. In the next room, Teresa was actually not saying anything about Richard at all.

In fact, the officers in that room were trying to break her down so that she would, but she just wasn't budging. And things finally got to the point where they threatened to take her children away if she didn't tell them the truth. and she fucking lost it on them at that point. She was like, you need to arrest me with something or let me out of here because I've told you everything I know and you're not bringing my kids into this.

Yeah, you're not taking my kids. I didn't do anything. No. And she said, I've told you everything I know. Like I was with him. He went to get the cigarettes. He came home. We went to Easter.

You came out to Easter, took his statement. I don't know what else to tell you. Yeah. And it's like if that was it, I can't, again, like you can't force me to make shit up for your narrative. So Richard and Teresa said, They were let go that night. But not before the cops gained access to that van.

Totally they needed it. Richard also took two polygraph tests. Confusing whether or not he passed them, some sources say yes. Other sources say no. Oh, okay. They're about as useful as a hot dog in a trench coat, though, so I'm not going to focus on it. They did take blood samples. They took hair samples and they took pubic samples from him.

There you go. And overall, the Tibadoes had been kept at that station that day for more than eight hours. Damn. Now, there was no blood found in Richard's van. None of the hair samples, fingerprint samples, or any sample taken from the van matched anything that belonged to Heidi. And like nothing proved that she was in that van. They had her fingerprints in the system already, which is something we're going to get into probably in part two. Oh, okay.

And they went through some of her belongings so that they could use different things to compare to the samples. Nothing matched. There was zero indication she'd ever been there. but it was a small town and people were starting to catch on to what was going on and people were starting to talk. Now people who had already told the police like, no, I don't know anything, were coming forward with information now. They said they either recently remembered or were too nervous to say before, which does happen. Yeah, of course. Many of those people, though, that had been spoken to in the past, were specifically asked if they had seen Richards van parked in

front of his brother Gary's house the day that Heidi went missing, and all of them said they had not. Yeah, it's like if you, if you have, if you have, if you haven't, you haven't. It's that simple. The end. But now people were totally changing their stories. Some were saying the van was parked there all night. Others were saying that it was parked late into the night on Easter. And people had other crazy stories regarding the Tibido brothers. One witness called in a tip saying to the police that he saw Gary and Richard carrying an eight to 10 foot long object in the woods. He said whatever it was was wrapped in clear plastic and it had the ends tied off with rope. What?

Now, according to him, this was the morning of April 6th and it happened in Palermo, New York. So the police follow up on this tip. They check this area of the woods. They expand a little bit just because they're not finding anything where he says it's going to be. They move out a little bit further. They come up with nothing. No such object was found in the woods. What?

But they still, the police, the investigators, they have a very strong feeling about Richard and Gary. So they call Chris back in one time again. Oh my God, sorry. They call Chris back into the station one last time. And by this point, Chris has seen this van three different times and said, yep, it's the right style of van, but it's not the same color as the one I saw that morning. Okay.

He has said this multiple times. But this third time seeing it, he changed his mind. said, I'm like 80% sure that maybe, yeah, it's the right fan, but I'm like 80% sure. Because I'm sure after a few times of it, you're like, I just will give you what you want at this point because I think I might be wrong. Like at that point, like you said, you're being like, maybe I am wrong. Maybe that isn't the van. Like I imagine that would happen. Of course. And then after a little bit of coaching, which you can read this full transcript in that book scrapped, I definitely think you guys should go read it and we'll link it in the show notes.

You read this coaching that goes on. And then at the end of it, Chris says, that's the van. Oof. Yeah. Okay. Now, at this time, there were four other suspects in this case. But Chris Biven's story alongside the sudden influx of tips, putting Gary and his brother Richard at the scene, sealed the deal for the investigation.

And on May 25, 1994, both Richard and Gary were arrested. Oh, damn. And Gary at this point didn't even know he was a suspect. Holy shit. Like, they had come and talked to him a few times, but he was like, he was, he gave them DNA. He gave them whatever they needed and nothing matched. So he was like, I wasn't there like me. And then he said him and his girlfriend were sleeping that Easter morning.

And they woke up when Richard called them and said, like, did you see the news about the D&W? Oh. But it was just the two of them in the house. So they didn't have anybody to set up that out by. So one morning, May 25th, he wakes up and there's a SWAT team surrounding his house arresting him. But they weren't arresting. Gary on kidnapping charges. Richard was arrested on kidnapping charges, but Gary was arrested because he and his girlfriend

Sharon had failed to show up in court in Massachusetts on an unrelated drug charge. Oh. The investigators wanted him behind bars while they made their case against him. Yeah, of course. That's all it is. Yeah. That's an easy thing to do. Yeah.

So neither brother knew that the other had been arrested until days later, and they see each other in the wreckyard. What? And as soon as Richard heard what they were holding. and Gary on. He's like, I got, I'm here on kidnapping charges. Like, why the hell are you here? And Gary's like, I'm here on like some drug charge from like years ago. Like I didn't show up in court. And Richard is like, I know exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to pin this on me. And now they have you as an accomplice. Wow. But as they're standing there chatting with each other,

guards come over and separate them. They get separated. Oh, shit. And then Gary and Sharon get extradited back to Massachusetts. And then you're like on, you could see. both sides on that one too. You have to separate them. You would have to separate them so they can't get a story straight to tell bullshit to the investigators. Oh, like there's so many, like, I get it. I get it on both. Like, I can see how this is like a railroading case right now. And also I get it why it's a pretty good case right now. Yeah. The only, I think the only thing that doesn't make it like a great case is that they have literally no DNA. Well, I was just going to say the fact that there's no physical evidence. Nothing. And also it's like, do you think these two,

guys are sophisticated enough that there would be not a trace in that van. Nothing. Like not a trace? Right. Come on. Exactly. Like a fingerprint, a hair, something. And they tried to say like, well, they cleaned it out. If you look at in the thing that sucks is. And if you read the book, you'll find out. Richard did take his car to a car wash the next day. But because when they search your shit, they don't put it back nicely. No. And they leave like the fingerprint dust and everything all over the place, but it looks shady as fuck to go to the car wash the next day. Of course it does. But he was like, my van's a mess. I got to clean it up. Yeah. So it's like, you could devils advocate the shit out of this entire place. He really could. You get both ways. It's crazy.

So Gary and Sharon get extradited back to Massachusetts. Richard is able to make it out on bail because he actually did, I think he did landscaping work for this woman, like he had worked for her before. And she was like, there's no way he's involved in this. And she posted his $15,000 bail. Holy shit. I don't know who I love enough to do that for. Really? Well, I'd hope you'd never be in jail. You never know. Well, what if something happens? I don't. There you go. But I'm saying that's a, that's a loyal customer right there. Yeah, like, we don't see that happen a lot. No. But she said, she's like, I don't see a world in which he's responsible for this. Like, I know him,

I don't see it. That's also very impressive. It is. Wow. And other people in town also came to his defense, too, saying there was no way that Richard was the person who was behind all of this. His friends actually put a sign in his yard that said Dick didn't do anything. Oh my God. I know. Wow. Now, Gary, on the other hand, couldn't post bail. Gary, we'll get into it in part two. Gary's a bit of character. I had a feeling. Gary has a past. I don't know Gary, but like, I just got vibes from even you just saying Gary that I was like, I feel like Gary's. He's got a past. Gary's done some stuff. He has. He absolutely has. Now, and but, and again, there are people in this town that absolutely believe that,

these two are the ones responsible. And I'm not saying either way, I haven't made up my mind. Oh, okay. So Gary, on the other hand, he couldn't post bail. And as soon as he and Sharon were taken into custody, they separated them, obviously, and tried to do the same thing to Sharon that they'd previously done to Richard's girlfriend, Teresa. Okay. They said, we know Gary's involved. You tell us everything. We know he kidnapped Heidi. And if you tell us everything, they said, we will move you anywhere in the United States that you want to go and you will be placed in the witness protection program. Holy shit. And she said, that's great. I have nothing to tell you. Wow. She said, we were home sleeping that day. We woke up when Richard called to tell us that, like, something was going down

at the D&W. That's that. Yeah. And they kept pushing. They were like, listen, like, anywhere you want to go, Sharon, anywhere you want to go. She's like, I don't want to go anywhere. She doesn't want to go anywhere. She doesn't want to go anywhere. She refused. She said Gary had no involvement. And she and Gary, both maintained their alibi forever. They never broke on that story. Never. Wow. So when they were in Massachusetts in custody, the police were searching their home on numerous

occasions trying to find any kind of solid evidence to prove Gary's involvement. They were taking boxes and boxes filled with all kinds of things. But as they tested and tested, nothing could be linked back to Heidi at all. At all. At that time, Gary actually hadn't been announced as the second suspect yet, but people knew why Richard had been arrested and they could add two and two together pretty easily. And, you know, people started talking being like Gary's involved. Like, yeah, we know something's going on. Now, while they were incarcerated, the Syracuse Herald Journal actually posted a story pointing out how weak the evidence was against Dick. Yeah, because,

I mean, no matter what, even if you're like, we feel like he's involved, you got to have something, man. You have to have something. Something. And it really is, again, West Memphis 3. because it's like, they have zero physical evidence, but they're just like, yep, you did it. You did it. We can't tell you to the scene at all. Exactly. You did it because you, like, I guess for Richard, it just sucks that you were the last person that saw her that day. Yeah, that really does. So, but they post, oh my God, they post at that point. Nobody was posted anything. No. They were writing articles. So they put this article out that says how weak the evidence is. And a few newspapers in town actually later on throughout the investigation would do interviews with both brothers.

and people were starting to get pissed about it because they're like, they're suspects in murder cases. Like, why are you giving them the time of day? Yeah. And the newspapers were like, usually we don't get to do this because the lawyers will tell them not to talk to any press. But in this case, their lawyers are telling them, do all the press you can. Yeah, because there's nothing holding you. You got to clear your name. There's nothing holding you.

But then it's also like if they were the ones involved, then like, holy shit. What are you doing? Right. But like how it's, this is so fucked. But one journalist was allegedly threatened by the police for, putting out these articles that were kind of giving Richard and Gary like the time of day. Whoa. Alleged. Alleged.

Now, some luck would come to the investigation when a furnace in the back of Gary's home was checked. And when two of his former cellmates would come forward and tell the police they had some serious information. Oh. So while the police were taking bags and bags out of Gary's home, they realized that he had a furnace in his backyard and he kind of used it like as a burn pit. Now, obviously, they want to look inside and test anything that might be lingering.

So they did find bones inside. Oh. They find bones inside. They did find bones, you say. They did find bones in his furnace. Human bones? So they weren't quite sure if these were human remains or if they were animal remains. So they call a forensic anthropologist to test them.

Now, the forensic anthropologist found that most of the bones were chicken bones. but there were a few that could not be definitively decided upon. Oh. He said it was possible that they could be human, but he said these undetermined bones are consistent in color and appearance with the other bones that we found, meaning they're most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule out that they could be human bones. Yeah, like you can't say definitively one way or another.

Which sucks because does he have human remains in his furnace or does he have chicken bones? So yeah. Oh, that's scary. So that's massive. And that was that on that. He just said there's no way to to definitively decide. He just said most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule it out. Also, like, maybe this is just me.

Why do you have chicken bones in your furnace? I don't know. I mean, like, what is the reasoning for that? Chicken bones in your furnace? They just throw them out. I don't really know. Like, I'm just what? I'm like, why were you burning chicken bones?

I'm a vegetarian, so I wouldn't know. In case you guys didn't hear. No, I don't know. I'm just like, why would you even have chicken bones in your furnace? I hate to like be this gross, but like, would you cook a chicken in your furnace? No, not a furnace. I wouldn't think so. Unless I'm thinking of a different type of a furnace.

I have no idea. This is like very strange. Oh, maybe. It's all very strange. Yeah, dude, I don't really know. So no matter what, that's strange. It's weird. Yeah, that's some weird shit.

My eyebrow is quirked. I tried to quirk mine, but I have both. talks. Wow. So it didn't matter. This was huge for the investigation. And it would later help the prosecution build their case against Gary, of course. And then what put the final cherry on top for these investigators and the prosecutors was when two inmates, Robert Baldassaro, excuse me, and James McDonald come forward and they say that Gary was definitely involved in Heidi Allen's disappearance. And worse, he had murdered her. They said, Gary described some kind of drug deal that he and Heidi had been involved in.

The story changed a couple of times. At one point, they said Heidi had screwed Gary over. And then in another version, Gary had screwed Heidi over and then she threatened him. So he and his brother abducted her from the store and killed her by hitting her over the head with a shovel. Okay. Now... That's awful? Absolutely bonkers.

Horrible. And the media goes bonkers. And they release a story saying, these two men come. forward with details that only the kidnappers would know. But that's really not the case. No. Because we don't know what the kidnappers would know because we don't really have a lot in this investigation. I was going to say, yeah, like what really information would they have? Right. We haven't all heard. But they post that story. And then the prosecutors are finally comfortable going forward with a formal arrest of Gary Tippett. Wow. So he gets arrested. I believe it was like three months after

he had been arrested on the kidnapping charges. It was August. that he got arrested for kidnapping. I mean, those bones are not, that's not great. Doesn't look good. That is not great for you, man. No, it's definitely not. No. I mean, you're right.

I need to know why, guys, email us if you have like a furnace in your backyard that you use as a burn pit and or if you have any kind of furnace and why you would have chicken bones in there. Yeah, like maybe I'm just not thinking it through because I don't have a burn pit or anything like that. I don't, I just don't understand why that would happen, but I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Unless I don't. Like if you're a farmer and like you are disposing of the rest of like a chicken carcass, I don't know. Yeah.

And it's like, okay, I guess you would burn it, I suppose. Would you? I don't know. I'm not a farmer. I honestly have no idea. I don't know. That's why I'm just more like, what the fuck? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

I mean, the fact that there's bones that they could. And I know that it's one of those things where it's like we can't definitively say either way. So it makes say that like, yeah. Yeah. That's scary. But like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. And again, remember, it's all strange. Can't definitively say, but most likely chicken bones. Well, and that's the thing. And I think that's the thing that we all need to, like, concentrate on is they're leaning more towards it being a chicken bone. But they can't. There's something that's holding them back from just conclusively saying that.

Exactly. It's one of those things like prove beyond a reasonable doubt kind of thing. Because if I were on the jury and they said, you know, these bones were found, I'd be like, holy shit. Yeah. But then if they said, You know, most of them are consistent with chicken bones. Like if they sat there and said 80% of them are chicken bones, 20 are undetermined but consistent,

your mind would go, those are chicken bones. Yeah. Why would they be human bones? Exactly. Like, why would those 20% be human bones? Yeah, exactly. But like, it could be. It could happen.

Yeah. But again, that's a reasonable doubt right there. Exactly. It's hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. It is. It really is. Absolutely. But what was this about Heidi Allen being involved in a drug deal?

I told you all about Heidi Allen in the beginning of this and not once did she sound like the kind of girl who would be involved in any kind of drug deal. No, that's when you started saying that, my mind was like, what? You're like, what the fuck? Oh, we're trying to put her there? What? And most people were confused and shocked when they heard about this. They were like, that doesn't make sense. Like, we know Heidi.

This is a small town. Yeah. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. But it turns out that the local police had been using Heidi as an informant since she was 15 years old. what the fuck and that is where we're wrapping for part one oh my god she was an informant she was an informant she was well that changes everything she was forced to become an informant but that's all i'm going to say right now whoa and i will tell you exactly why in the beginning of part two and then

we are going to go over some shady investigations where when you're involved in a court case both sides the defense and the prosecution have to show each other everything that they're going to use in court. That didn't happen here. Oh, good. Files were hidden. Tucked away. There's going to be a secret recorded conversation that somebody else may have been involved in this. There's another murder that we're going to touch upon.

There's a lot coming up in part two. Wow. That was wild. I didn't see that coming at all. And now I'm even more worried for Heidi. Yeah. It's a lot. This case is absolutely heartbreaking. And the thing that stinks is, you know, like maybe justice was served. It might have been, but there is a reasonable doubt in the mind of a lot of people. There's questions. There's questions. And there just shouldn't be. Like, I wish for everybody involved that there didn't have to be questions. That's the thing. It's when this question's lingering at the end, then justice has not been served. Exactly. So that's not good. Yeah. So this is coming Now, what is it? This is coming out on Wednesday and part two is going to come out on Friday.

So we won't make you wait too long. Yeah, it's going to be back to back. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cool. So we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you.

I forgot how we ended up. Keep it. Weird. But that's where you forget how to end your own show that you've been doing for four years. That's actually a lot. Bye. Bye.