Morbid - Episode 126: The West Memphis 3 Part 4

Episode Date: March 23, 2020

It's finally here....the conclusion of our month-long coverage of the West Memphis 3. In this last episode, we talk about Damien, Jason and Jessie's lives in prison, the movement to free them, John Mark Byers and Terry Hobbs' roles in this case and the three's lives outside of prison walls. West of Memphis Doc https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2130321/ https://innocenceproject.org/west-memphis-three-go-free/ HBO Paradise Lost 1 The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills HBO Paradise Lost 2 Revelations HBO Paradise Lost 3 Purgatory Devil's Knot by Mara Leveritt Life After Death by Damien Echols Dark Spell: Surviving the Sentence by Mara Leveritt Almost Home by Damien Echols Visit our sponsors! Hunt A Killer Right now, just for our listeners you can go to HuntAKiller.com/Morbid and use promo code MORBID at check out for 20% off your first box. HelloFresh Go to HelloFresh.com/morbid9 and use code morbid9 for 10 free meals including free shipping CauseBox The best part is that of course I got my listeners an exclusive discount- go to www.causebox.com/morbid and use the code morbid to get your first box for 30% off- as in you can get your first box worth over $250+ for less than $39.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Elena. And this is Quarteen Morbid. Corinteen to the pot lab. This is COVID-19 time morbid. This is not fun. No, it's not, guys. And it's not even that, we don't even have it that bad because things are still open. Yeah.

So I'm not like, I'm not like, oh my god, this is so hard. Like I can still get deliveries. I can still get, I can still go to Target if I really want to. I'm not, but we could be option. We can go get a Starbucks drive through. It's really not that, you know, that bad, but it just sucks because things are starting to get canceled and moved and, you know, it just sucks. I don't like it. Like we had shows that we were supposed to go to that got postponed. And now a bunch of fries.

A bunch of shows so far that we were planning on going to, we had tickets to, are now being moved. I had tickets for John to see Lake Street dive for his birthday and that's been really interesting. We had tickets to meet Stasi Schroeder. Don't even remind me. We have tickets. We were supposed to go to to and that's why we drink

This is I mean first world problems of the highest order, but still it sucks and you know the important thing is that We're still here flattening the curve. Yeah, stay inside your fucking house Yeah, don't need to go anywhere lie. So all your delivery and soon and this will all be over I hope flatten that curve guys and just by the way, quick little side note, they don't listen to any of these like cures for it or these like things that are being touted as things that are going to stave it off or to help you if you already have it.

Just don't listen to that stuff until the CDC comes out until like actual scientists and doctors confirm these things. Just be very wary. And also, everybody make sure you're looking at your local state police pages, if you can, because there's a ton of scams going around. I know there was some rumor in Massachusetts that people would show up at your house in like hazmat suits and say they had to come in and do a test. Oh, that's so scary.

And they'll tie you up and rob you. Whoa. So there's no actual reports of that happening, but it's a rumor that went around. and say they have to come in and do a test. Oh, that's so scary. And they'll tie you up and rob you. So there's no actual reports of that happening, but it's a rumor that one around. So the state police were like, by the way, don't let people into your house that are in hashmats. So it's like, nobody is coming to your house from the state.

So just make sure you're paying attention to your state police. Listen to what they have to say. Make sure you're looking at official pages. Just be wary everybody, because I don't want anybody getting, you know, being hurt or being scammed in this shitty time where I'll live again. So, you know, just stay, you know, Corona legit, okay?

Yeah, wash your fucking hands. Stay legit. Stay legit. All right, guys, so we do have to announce some of our shows and get you up to date with that. So, we were supposed to be at the Pension Line Comedy Club in Philadelphia on April 14th. Unfortunately, April 14th, we are not going to make it because Corona is being postponed. It's not canceled. Yep, we're in the works of getting that rescheduled.

So it's absolutely being rescheduled. We're just nailing down a date. Yeah. And we actually, we have a date. It's just not absolute. We just want to make sure it's official. So we're just nailing down a date. Yeah, and we actually, we have a date, it's just not an absolute, we just want to make sure it's official. So we don't want to release it yet. But every single date that we say is going to be rescheduled,

your tickets are going to transfer. They'll be on it. So just know that and know we can't wait to see you either way, but we wish we were seeing you sooner. I know. If you already have tickets to Punchline Comedy Club, whatever the rescheduled date is, those tickets will be accepted. Yeah, and just hang tight, because we'll let you know as soon as we know. You will know right when we know. Same thing with the

DC improv that was supposed to be the very next night, April 15th. Obviously, that's not going to happen. Again, working on getting that date set in stone, your tickets will be honored. Yep, your tickets are going to be honored. Those ones, like will they? And if the dates, the new dates don't work for you, you know, refunds are something that we're, you know, you'll be working out with the actual venues and stuff, but just know that tickets are gonna transfer and new dates are coming, they are not being canceled.

Yes, as I have now, we're still supposed to go to CrimeCon. I believe that's the first weekend May. And CrimeCon, as of right now we're still supposed to go to crime con. I believe that's the first weekend May in crime con as of right now is still happening Let's just leave it at that. Let's just put that into the universe Let's throw it in the universe that corona just takes up just dips after that I mean just dip right out of here to see you later cuz I want to come to crime Come me too, and we're supposed to be in mad the lit Nashville No, sorry. I skipped over something. We're supposed to be in Alabama. Oh, Alabama. We want to see you. Yes. And then these are the ones that are still happening. They're not postpone yet. So hang tight. May 6th. Huntsville, Alabama. May 7th.

Two shows at Zane's in Nashville. Hope to see you in Nashville in Alabama. June 2nd at the Good Night's comedy club in Raleigh, North Carolina. Raleigh, I think we will definitely see you on that date, right? Come on. I think so. I'm just going to be out of here by then. Let's all collectively put it out there. June 3rd, the very next night at the comedy zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hell yeah, Charlotte. June 11th, we added this show for all you Chicago people that couldn't come to the second show. Yeah, Chicagoans. There's also going to be a show the next day, June 12th. That one is sold out, both are at Talia Hall.

Can't wait to see you, Talia Hall. Gonna be so lit. July 8th at the Comedy Work South in Greenwood Village, Colorado. I'm so excited. I fucking love Colorado. I can't wait to show Elena Colorado. I can't wait for Colorado. And we can't wait to see you there.

Can't wait. And then on July 11th, we're going to stay home and maybe take a drive down to the Wilbur and like put on a show or something. Yeah, with the wonderful, amazing Emily Walsh. The comic stylings of one Emily Walsh. It's totally worth it. She's amazing and hilarious. And we are so stoked about all of these shows. So, and again, we'll let you know as soon as we know information. Yes and as soon as everything is updated our link tree which is in my bio, Elena's bio, it's on the website, it's on our personal or excuse me our morbid Instagram. Anytime you click that it should be updated as soon as the dates have been reset. Yeah and if you want it you know we're gonna update as soon as we can on the podcast

but for like really quick updates, go to our Instagram page, our Facebook, the Twitter, all that, our website, morbidpodcast.com. We'll be updating that as we go. So just keep an eye out. We're gonna see you all just like get rid of one jumble. So that's all. Well, without further ado, let's listen to the fucking I've seen so I've been quarantining mostly at Alainus How's just to because I love her and I've seen her put in so much work to unfolding this case. This is the final part part for I'm so excited this case has been haunting my dreams every time I think she's done She's like oh wait. There oh, wait, there's more.

Yeah, there's more. I just can't even this. So we're in part four of the West Memphis three case. This is the final part. Oh my god. I thought you were about to say here and tell us that we were, I was like, there's no part five. I mean, I'm gonna be real with you. I definitely could take it to a part five, but I'm gonna spare you guys because I think we all need to move out of this frustrating headspace. Yeah. Because you know, in a time of COVID-19, I think we need to get out of this frustrating. We need some uplifting. Yeah. We can't be stuck in this kind of frustration. So, so part four, it's going to be a long one thought it was going to be a short one, definitely not. We are, so last night I ended up watching West of Memphis, which is the Peter Jackson

documentary about this. I highly recommend it. It's really good. In the vein of Paradise Lost, but is now, they looked at like forensics after the fact, and they delve very hard into one Terry Hobbs. And I think it's really interesting for you to watch and I think everybody should watch it. And then formulate your own opinions. We're not gonna tell you our opinion.

It's gonna be like, I think it's gonna be pretty clear what my opinion is. But we're not gonna say it in so many words. But yeah, because basically I'm good with being sued by Terry Hobbs. So I'm just gonna give you the facts. Do what then what you will. Who knows? You know, just take it with a grain of salt

and do what you will with it. Okay. So let's get started. So first, when we last left you guys in part three, Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin and Jesse Miskelli were just sentenced to very long terms in prison. And Damien, after ridiculous trials that were rife with inconsistencies, lies, circumstantial evidence, and just shenanigans all around.

Jesse Miskelli and Jason Baldwin were sentenced to life in prison and Damien Eccles was sentenced to die by lethal injection. Oh god. No I just want to go over quickly what happened to the three guys after they were put in prison, their experiences. I'm just going to do a brief overview. Then we're going to go into John Mark Buyers, Terry Hobbs. We're going to talk about the people that came forward to help them, all that good stuff. So Jason Baldwin said, basically when he heard the guilty verdict, he was in such shock that he said, it wouldn't have mattered if I was sentenced to an hour in prison or my life in prison or sentenced to die.

Oh my god. I was dead. Like he was like this because he's like, it just ruined me. Because again, he went through this whole thing as believing God would not allow this to happen. And he was like innocent. Why was he open and jailed? That's what he thought. He was shocked.

Even though he said he knew that like by the way the trial was going that they were, they were gonna convict him no matter what. He was like, I'm still in the back of my mind was like, I'm innocent, they can't convict me. And he actually said, quote, the truth was not found out and proclaimed to everyone. And he said, that's why he said,

when the judge was like, is there any reason that the sentence should not be carried out? And he said, because I'm innocent, he said that's the only thing he could say because he was like, the truth wasn't said. I had to say, I had to just be like, I'm innocent. That's why you shouldn't put me in prison forever. Like, there's no other reason. I'm just innocent. I didn't do this. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill? Or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my podcast Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively

on Amazon Music, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Siky Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Valow, a.k.a. Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psychie Daily in the Amazon Music app.

Download the app today! What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times or fell in love with a vampire or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed. What would you do? I'm Whit Missaldine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dunes his entire future with one choice, to a woman who survived a notorious serial killer. You'll hear their first-person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances. Each episode is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting accounts sound like Hollywood movies, but I assure you this is actually happening.

Followed this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So, in the winter after he entered prison, Jason received a letter from a counselor at the juvenile center where he and Michael Carson had spent time together. Michael Carson remember was the kid who went on the stand and said, hey, I talked to Jason in prison when we were spending like four minutes together and he just spilled his guts to me and told me that, you know, he sucked the blood from one kid and he put the balls in his mouth, and he said this really like graphic, ridiculous statement. And it was like, yeah, Jason said that to me.

Meanwhile, look at Jason. You think he fucking said that? Exactly. Like, the mallet, come on. Right. So he was like so, and it was later discussed that discovered that that was untrue. Right.

Well, this is when it was discovered. Because so Jason received a letter. It was from a counselor at the Juvenile Center. And this counselor in the letter said that everything Michael Carson said on that stand was from a conversation he had with him. He said he had discussed the case with Michael Carson and he said, quote, we were discussing the case in the meeting and I told him what people were saying about the victims and about what was allegedly done to the bodies. This young man went to the police and stated you had confessed those details to him while in detention together.

So he told him that was wrong of me, that was so out of line, I never should have talked about that case with him. Right. I was beyond out of line. I should have been fired. Like, I'm I was beyond out of line. I should have been fired. I'm horribly sorry. I'm sorry. Nothing was done.

Well, he said, but I need you to know I was very nervous to come forward with this because obviously I shouldn't have been speaking to him about this. Right. And I didn't know what to do. And he said, but then I got, I couldn't hold it in anymore because I was guilty. I was guilty. I was crazy that this kid is going to pretend that he was, that Jason told him this. So he said, this counselor said he went to Jason's lawyer and told Jason's lawyer, Paul

Ford. He was like, this is what happened. Paul Ford was like, will you testify to that? And he said, no, he said, yes, yes, I will. So he said, I was totally willing to, and he said, all of a sudden they told me, you're not allowed to testify. And he said, he didn't know why he wasn't allowed to testify,

but he said, I was willing the entire time. Was it the judge that said he couldn't? The judge said he couldn't. It's like, so I can't tell the truth. So Michael Carson, this 16-year-old who told this fantastical tale with zero witnesses and just told him, yep, this is what he said to me was allowed to testify. And now we can't rectify what the truth is.

But now a counselor who's saying, no, no, I told this kid that and that is a false, that's a false testimony. Cannot be allowed to testify. Why? Exactly. There's a lot of wives in this. So, Paul Ford, once he found this out, that this letter came through, Paul Ford tried to get Jason a new trial. And he did this because at one point during the original trial, Judge Brunette had met with Fogelman and Davis privately. So the judge met with Fogelman and Davis were the prosecutors. Okay. He met with them alone. Like off the record. Without the other, without the defense attorneys.

Is it? Okay. That's not okay. Yeah. And especially in a trial like this one, whenever a meeting like that takes place, it has to include lawyers on both sides. And this didn't. Right.

So this was a pretty serious issue. And Paul Ford was like, we can get a new trial based on that. Right. Like that's that big. How are they going to prove that they did that? Well, because Judge Bernette admitted that he did kidding. He did not deny that he did that.

Oh my God. Not at all. But Bernette was the judge that had to rule on that. So he had to rule on whether his own behavior was okay or not. Why couldn't this have been brought to another judge? Like, why was that not allowed? Because as long as Judge Bernett was the original trial judge, and as long as he was, even if he was a corrupt judge.

Yep. Because, and actually he ran for like, you know, some political position in Arkansas. And they were saying that they were begging that he would get elected to this position. So he would not take it off of the case. Because if he got elected to that position, he couldn't be trial judge for this case. Wow. And so they were saying like, we were hope it, we would have campaigned for him just to get him off of this goddamn case.

So of course, when looking at his own behavior and whether or not it was okay that he had this private meeting with Fulgum and he said it was fun. He was like, of course that's fine, you're not getting a new trial based on that. Oh my god. And they could do nothing about it. Is this like slamming your head against a brick wall for an over? Oh yeah. And this is the thing.

Judge Burnett was the trial judge through all these appeals. So he just denied every single one of them. Right. He just denied all new trials, denied all any new evidence. He denied everything. As far as he was concerned, that was it. They're gonna rot in jail. Damien's gonna die and I'm gonna move on. Like that was it. And when they were eventually, because obviously they were freed eventually, which we'll get to. But when they were eventually let out, they interviewed Judge Bernett and he was like, I think it's ridiculous.

And I did my job. I did great. And then he was like, this is some like Hollywood shit, but basically that is what I am. Because you made this a mockery. And it's like, no, this isn't Hollywood shit. You just sucked at your job.

That's all, like it's okay to admit that you were not just. So Jason ended up, you know, he had, he went into prison having a really tough time because he was this tiny little 16 year old, right? He was real tiny. Right. And he went in there, people think he's a baby killer, essentially.

And he decided that he had to just act tough to like scare people into, and he said eventually, you know, he was able to like work in certain positions in prison and he was able to like find some sense of like not normalcy, but like just survival basically. Right. And actually him and Jesse and Muskely were incarcerated together a few times. Like in the same place. Like there's a couple of pictures of them like in the same like prison together.

It's very odd. Yeah. So Jesse had a really hard time. We did. He did. So he didn't have a hard time in the sense. Damien had a hard time on like a whole nother galaxy level. But Jesse just had a hard time because he was not, you know, at the same intellectual level that his age was. So he's still not understanding any of this. Right. He just wanted to go home to his dad. Right.

He thought, again, this was a total slap in the face to him. He had no idea this was going to happen. Oh. And he got in trouble a lot. Because even on the outside, he was like a super shater. So he was a huge imposter. Yeah, like he was always just fighting. Because you know, people probably picked on him

and were fucking assholes. Oh, one hundred percent. Right. In fact, in one prison photo of him, they have like, you know, they have like the name tag. Yeah. And his says Miss Kelly, but there's, it says Miss MISS.

And then there's like a little space. Oh, come on. And it says Kelly. So it says like Miss Kelly. Right. And I don't know. I have no thing that says that that was intentional, but when you look at it,

to me it looks like it says, because it was a capital K and a space in between. And to me that's someone being a dick. Of course, that just, I don't know, that just seems like something that would happen to him. But he said that he would do things just to get in trouble so that he would be put in solitary. Oh. Because he said he could finally calm his mind and raise his mind when he was

like a loan. And he said because they all three of them said jail, especially deathbrow where Damien was. I can't imagine. They said it's just constant noise. Of course. Of course. So your mind is just like crazy. And so yeah, he would want to get some peace and quiet. And after a while, though, he was able to control some of this and he got to work in the prison kitchen. He worked on an outside, some kind of thing outside on all the things in prison. But he was put to work and I think it helped kind of keep his mind a little busier.

Yeah. And they did again find some kind of way to just survive together. Like hoping mechanism almost. Yeah, exactly. So February 19th, 1996, Jesse's attorneys filed an appeal and they filed this appeal for seven Supreme Court

justices to look at evidence about his confession. So they agreed that these seven justices said yes. In his trial and Jesse's trial originally, the only evidence against him was that confession. Right. That's it. There was nothing else. They also agreed that it had a, that it had a, quote, confusing amalgam of time and events and contained, quote, numerous inconsistencies. Yeah.

So they agreed to all that. But then they agreed that it was sufficient for the verdict to remain. Oh, okay, cool. That makes sense. And Chief Justice Bradley D. Jesson wrote, so he had to write his opinion, they all write their various opinions why they think this. He wrote his opinion using Jesse's own statements, but he just kind of like rewrote them to make sense. Right, of course. Which it's like, but that's not how he said them.

That's the whole point of this appeal. Is that like, sure, if it was a coherent narrative to again, we wouldn't be appealing this. Like the reason is it's not coherent. So he said, quote, later in the stir, or actually, yeah, so he said quote later in the statement, he changed the original time to noon. In the later statement, the appellant said that Eccles and Baldwin had come to the Robin Hood area

between five and six. Upon prompting by the officer, he changed that time to seven or eight. He finally settled on saying that this group arrived at 6 p.m. while the victims arrived near dark. So all seven justices said that that's weird and inconsistent, obviously. But then they said quote, when inconsistencies appear in the evidence, we defer to the jury's determination of credibility. So why are we

here? Right, so then what's the purpose? The jury already said they were guilty, so why are you there? Exactly, because it's like, wait a second, but we're saying that the inconsistencies are what makes this a weird verdict, and you're saying the inconsistencies are weird totally. But the jury said what they said. But the jury said guilty, so we just defer back to them. Then what the fuck are you doing?

That seems like a circle of nonsense. Like what the hell? So awesome, so like we said, Dan Stedham kept with the case up till the very end. And this was Jesse's lawyer. That was Jesse's lawyer. Okay. And he argued that he was coerced to confess, obviously. And the justice is basically, we're like, yeah, it kind of looks like that could have happened. Considering his age, intelligence, and education, but like, considering everything. They even said that the

requirement for a voluntary confession was that the state had to convince the court that the statements were voluntary, not the other way around, but they still said that this was voluntary. Okay. Even though they did not convince at all. Right. So when the fact that Gitchell and Ridge used, remember when Gitchel and Ridge had used Aaron, Vicky Son?

Hutchinson's disembodied voice saying nobody who knows but me or whatever it was. It was absolutely fucking terrifying. To like freak Jesse out. They said, the justice has said that that tactic, quote, gave them pause and quote, comes perilously close to psychological overbearing. But then said, it's fine.

Okay. Yeah. So it comes real close to being real fucked up, but I just don't understand how you put your fucking hat on your pillow at night and go to sleep knowing that you did all of this. Well, and even the fact that the detectives had failed to have Jesse's parents or guardian sign his waiver of rights didn't matter to the justices. And that's illegal. Right. The detectives literally didn't have a parent or guardian sign that waiver and Jesse was underage at the time. Okay. That's not legal. That all should have been thrown out because of that one thing and they were like, oh, I don't know. It's too bad they kind of moved this trial somehow. Oh, it's unbelievable.

And Stidum said certain evidentiary items were completely irrelevant and prejudiced towards them. And the court ignored it and said they were fine. And these were things like the witchcraft book of Damien's. Right, which is like what the fuck does that have to do with the case. Vicki's lying about the spot. A photo of Jason wearing a black metallic a shirt with a skull on it was evidence. A band t-shirt and Dan Sidham was like yeah no like that's not okay that's prejudice and not

relevant and it's they said the music he was they said that is relevant as fuck it's not that was the official statement from the doesn't relevant like that's relevant as fuck. It's not that was the official statement. But it doesn't really like that's relevant as fuck guys. You know what though? I wouldn't even be shocked if that's what the official statement and they were just like boom. Because in the official's justice opinions, they wrote that eight is a witch's number. That was in the official thing. But was it nine or was it eight? It was a who knows right. But apparently they said it was eight. The expert. Yeah, he didn't know well He just changed it as as he soft fit. They're just like well, you know, maybe 10 and he's like sure like 25 You know what it said like a number. I don't know So it had come out by that point that

Dr. Peretti the medical examiner had actually changed to the time of death of the boys From what he thought because again time of death for this case was really hard to determine. Right. He thought it was well after midnight now. So now he was saying like, actually, so this vastly fucked with Jesse's supposed a version of events.

And the court said, that doesn't matter either. Does though. It does matter. It's just like, okay. So yeah, so Jesse, so that didn't happen. No new trial happened for him. It's crazy that they were able to get out of jail. I'm so shit.

Like, thank God they were so close to not being able to. Yeah. It's crazy. So then we come to Damien who is on death row. Now he was placed immediately in solitary. Oh God. His antidepressants were stopped abruptly, so he went through abrupt withdrawals.

You could have seizures from that. You could die, basically. So he had filed complaints saying that he was brutally beaten, brutally and repeatedly raped. Oh, God. By other inmates, he was beaten by guards. He said it was literal hell. He was in solitary for literally like a decade. Oh my God. So he wasn't outside of a tiny concrete cell for like

eight to ten years. Holy shit. And Damian and we'll explain at the end. I'm going to explain how this affected his health when he got out. So Damian and Jason's appeals went about as good as Jesse's. They said everything Judge Bernette did was totally fine. And even though the evidence was circumstantial completely, it was totally fine. They didn't need to look at this again. Yeah, of course.

They listed the fact that Damian was into witches and the occult and he had a journal that had pentagrams in it. They said that one of the reasons was he wore long black coats, even when it was warm, that it was a witch's number, and that it was near a pagan holiday. And that's it. He was like, that's so, it must be satanic and it was him. He did it.

That's true. And he said, one of the other things that they really harped on because they really listened to that occult expert quote unquote. That's what the justices were like yeah. He literally confused himself on the stand. He couldn't even he had a mail-in degree. And probably he forgot that. And then they also said that they were very you know they they cited this is very serious too that the left side is supposedly satanic. Oh, right. Because you know how people like it before you, you, you, you, you try to make people right handed because they said the left hand was like the devil.

Yeah. And right hand is supposed to be more like Christianity and like pureness and all that. Well, they said that some of the worst injuries were on the left side. So, uh-huh. Well, they said that some of the worst injuries were on the left side. So it must be satanic. But that doesn't, wouldn't the bads, if it was satanic, wouldn't the bad injuries be on the right side, which is the Christian side? Right, you'd be trying to be against that.

You wouldn't be going against your own. So it's like that doesn't even make sense. And no one's sitting there being like, wait a second. And also determined that that was probably turtles. Exactly. So the only evidence they said that was relevant for Jason's guilt was Michael Carson's testimony. Oh.

They still hung on to that. And that was literally proven to be bullshit, but they didn't care. They agreed that the trials probably should have been severed, Damian and Jason's. Yeah. So they were like, yeah, we probably should have severed that, but like hindsight, you know. Whoops. It was just kind of like, oh, we didn't do it. Sorry, kid, you got to stay in jail for the rest of your life.

Too bad. And they also said bringing animals, they brought the fact that Damien had animal skulls in his room. He had metal music posters and witchcraft and a cult books, and they said that was totally fine to bring into evidence and totally proved his guilt. Yeah, totally. So you can see... So me and your murderers, then, too. Right? And as you can see, at the highest level here, there was no help.

It was just... there was no help all around. So, yeah, so Damien had an absolute, but he did turn to like Buddhism in, and he, cause remember, Damien was interested in his very interested in all religions, not just Wicca, and so he suddenly found himself with a lot of time and so he was studying a ton of Buddhism. He started like meditating for like eight to,

or like five to eight hours a day. He would have to. And like, he's like sitting in meditating for that long. So, you know, while they're in prison, we all know that the Paradise Lost Documentaries came out the first one in 1996. Bruce Sinofsky and Joe Burlinger were the ones who made this. They had no idea that it was going to turn into what it was. They went into this thinking

there, doing a film about three teenage murders. And then it turned into like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. This is not what it seems. They vowed to make those movies until they were free and they did. Yeah. They came out with three. So everybody definitely go watch it because they'll blow your fucking mind. They're really good. A lot of people have said that they weren't and watched it and were like, whoa. And actually some people have said it changed their minds. It does. It really does.

And then if, and also again, go watch West of Memphis too. I'm seeing the one. Because that's a really great one with Peter Jackson at the helm. So definitely go see that. During this whole time, you know, the Paradise Lost documentary came out and that's when people, the first one and people were like, wait. No one had heard of, you know, people knew about the case, but now they didn't know the real details. Wait a second. And this is when West Memphis 3.org was born. This is details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details.

They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details.

They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details.

They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the real details. They didn't know the and Burke, I just feel like you need to have a band together. So they do. They were from Los Angeles. They saw Paradise Lost and just couldn't get over it. Like all three of them just couldn't stop talking about it and we're like, I can't move on from this. And they also realized that they couldn't get a lot of information about the case and they were all dying to know more. Kathy, in particular, was like, I need to know what's going on with this case. So she wrote to the lawyers and heard that nothing had happened

for these defendants and that they were just rotting away in jail. Right. And that their appeals had been denied and all this and she was like, that's unacceptable. She's like, I was horrified. I was like, something needs to be done here. So Burke actually said he felt like he was like, I watched the movie and then I was, when it was over, I felt like I missed needs to be done here. So Burke actually said he felt like,

he was like, I watched the movie and then I was, when it was over, I felt like I missed the part of the movie where they showed me that they were guilty. Because it was like, it ended and I was like, wait, you didn't show me their guilt. Like, I don't understand, did I miss the part of this movie or something? And so they were all like, we gotta do something.

So in October, 1996, they went to Arkansas, the three of them. They were like, they went to the crime scene. They went to meet Damien and Jesse and Jason in prison. Because they were like, we wanted to get the whole picture. We wanted to be in the thick of it. See that the area talked to some people, like really get a feel for it.

They talked to Dan Stidham and they were absolutely convinced after this that they had been real-rooted. Just like the documentary show, but they were like, the documentary showed us that, but we wanted to see it for ourselves to make sure we weren't being like, shown a different side of this whole thing.

And they felt like it was like everybody else feels. It was like Salem level hysteria. It was like almost worse, they really was. And after speaking with people in the area, they were like, we just can't let them rot in jail. So this is when they figured that they had to put all of these updates and real evidence onto a website for people that dig into. Mike Huckabee was the governor at the time.

And they were trying to get people to write to him to help move this along. Don't think that went real well. Probably not. Don't really know why. But they sold merch on the website. They were reaching out to celebrities trying to get people just and they were trying to get people to be like, here, look at what we have put out there. And you make the decision, but if you feel like we feel like get on our side. If you don't, see you later goodbye, that's fine. But we know that this is the right thing.

So their whole thing was they were trying to raise money to get them a new trial, get evidence, get things tested. Kathy even took forensic courses. A couple of them took courses in school just to get a better understanding of the whole thing like they went hard Uh, they put discussion forums on the website They uploaded documents from the court cases and then they would also do interviews with Damien and Jesse and Jason and like upload them on there So people could do like questions and answers while they were in prison. That's crazy um

That's when the the free the west Memphis 3 catchphrase was born. There was like t-shirts. Yeah, I've seen the shirts. They took for, and again, they took the courses, and they were instrumental in getting this happening. In all three of the guys say, like without them, this wouldn't have been, without them, and like the paradise lost, people, and like, you know, Peter them, and the paradise lost, the people and Peter Jackson, and all the big names that stepped up

to Johnny Depp's stuff. I was just gonna say, Eddie Vetter, Henry Rollins, Natalie Mainz, and the Dixie Chicks, they all stepped up and were like, fuck that, this is not justice. So without them, it definitely wouldn't have gone as far as it did. Now, while this is not justice. So without them it definitely wouldn't have gone as far as it did. Now while this is all going on like we mentioned earlier Vicki Hutchison the the waitress who said that she went to in a spot with Damien and

Jesse and then was like whoops just kidding. She said that after the boys were arrested and put in jail, she said that she constantly called detectives to say that Aaron was interviewed a lot during that whole investigation, her eight-year-old son Aaron, without her, without her. Like, they took him and by himself a lot. And she wasn't okay with that. She was freaking out. She was like, I want to sue. And then she said that she thought she should get the reward money because she said her son's disembodied voice is really what put these three in jail. But the reward money is fake.

You didn't put the real people in jail, exactly. Vicki. And then she said that the spot was something she was kind of, so at first she was like, I was kind of lying about that because she said, I did go somewhere that day, but she didn't know who she went with or what she did because that afternoon of the spot, the supposed a spot. Her boyfriend had broken up with her, so she drank one bottle of wild turkey, bought to herself. So she said she was essentially blackout.

She went somewhere with someone and saw people dressed in black doing something. Or maybe she passed out on her couch and had a weird fucking dream. Yep, she said it looked like they were touching each other. So she wanted to go home. She doesn't know who brought her home. She doesn't know when or how.

Honey, you had a dream. And then she said she woke up on her front lawn with a second empty bottle of wild turkey next to her. And soon after that, she admitted, I was just lying completely about that whole time. Yeah, you were. And that's when she said three innocent people behind bars because you're drunk fuck up.

Exactly. And that's when she said that police wanted her to pretend to go to the spot. And that all she wanted to say now to Jesse and Damian and Jason was, I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's not gonna do anything for me. Which is like, I don't want your apology.

That's the thing. It's like, you're so funny. You are literally just being like, sorry. This is like that I feel like Nancy in the scene in the craft where what's his face says, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, she flips the fuck out and then she, well she kills him, so I don't want to kill anybody, but like, well, I feel that way.

That's what I would have said to you. I want to like levitate off the floor. Who's just, I'm just gonna say, I would levitate in front of Vicki and scream at her. I just scream it. And then be like, how sorry are you now? Like, bitch. So, yeah, so that's Vicki.

So again, we're having multiple things coming up that are saying that key testimony in these trials was the lie. And people, it is coming out. And nothing is being done about it because judge, Bernette is like, eh. And then the high court is like, eh. And it's just like, everybody's just like,

let's just wipe our hands of it. They're three poor kids. Let's not. That went through and Dale, who gives a shit? Like me? Move on. And Damien says it in west of Memphis, there's really good interviews with him while

he was still on death row. And he says, like, I want to be clear, this is happening every day. We are not a weird case, so we're just getting more attention. Like he is like, this is happening every day. We are not a weird case. We're just getting more attention. Like he is like, this is happening to so many people. Wow, that's so scary. And it's so true. So now we want to mention, so we mentioned a bunch, John Mark Buyers, who is Christopher Buyers, stepped down there. He is married to Melissa Buyers. They were the

ones that were very eccentric with the press. John Mark Buyers in the documentaries, if anyone has watched them, you will see him being very theatrical over the top, which to a lot of people was a little eyebrow-raising. A lot of people were like, that looks like you are putting on a show and not actually feeling real emotions, but you know. So John Mark Buyers was a, people thought he was a suspect from the beginning. Now, he does have a very troubled past and present.

Well, right now, I don't know. I shouldn't say present. But recent past and present. Well, well, right now I don't know, I shouldn't say present, but recent past. He had a troubled life, for sure. So the Arkansas Times found that buyers had been arrested in 1973 when he was only 16 years old because his parents claimed that he was threatening them with a butcher knife. Oh, yeah. Okay. Now, by 1987, he had already been married and divorced. He had two children, and now he was remarried to another woman. Now, a former neighbor of his, who was never I deed, said that she called the authorities about child abuse on him.

Oh, no. Because he said, quote, he was whipping Christopher, who was two at the time. So badly, I was afraid for his life. Oh my God. Yeah, and this is Christopher Byers, one of the victims. Oh, that's so sad. The woman said that she reported

these happening tons of times, and she also reported it while they were investigating the murders, because she was like, just so you know, like this is the kind of person he is, and was never asked to testify. That's absolute bullshit. Never asked to testify about it. So that same year in 1987, he was also arrested

and charged with terroristic threatening, because he assaulted his ex-wife. Oh, how did he assaulted his ex-wife. Oh, how did he assault his ex-wife? Well, a neighbor called the police and said she was a little concerned because she heard a woman screaming and saw, quote, two small kids outside by themselves. The police show up to the buyer's home. They found buyers and his ex-wife in the home.

His ex-wife was laying on the floor, screaming, and buyers was holding an electric shock device. Oh my God. They're running her with it. Yeah. Now, this isn't Melissa, right? No, this is his ex-wife. Okay.

Now, buyers was convicted of terroristic threatening for this particular incident, and he served three years probation. Oh. Now, as we will see, he's like conviction proof. This is not Alabama, just or not Alabama, Arkansas, justice system, huh? Yeah, yeah.

So, July 1992, he was arrested by sheriff's deputies in Memphis and charged with felony cocaine counts and carrying a weapon. Oh. In 92.93 he was also involved in a huge Rolex scam, like fraud scam where he was selling like faulty Rolexes. He made a ton of money off of that and he got caught for that. So Christopher's biological father was a guy named Ricky Murray, and he said that Mark Buyer's never officially adopted Christopher like he claimed.

And he was like, not that that says anything, but like he's lying about that. And then he said that Mark Buyer said on the Mori Povit show after the murders, because they were all on those shows at the time, that he had picked Melissa Buyer's up from work the day of the murders, and that was his alibi. I picked her up from work and when I came back, we didn't know where he was. He said that so Christopher's dad said that when he talked to buyers at Christopher's funeral, again, he said that he was at court the day of the murders. So then he was like, we're did you have more stories than more? So he also said, he also told West Memphis 3.org that he didn't think Damien Jason and Jesse

committed the murders. Christopher's father was like, I don't think they did it. Oh god, that's awful. Now Melissa Byers, Christopher's mother, was also very troubled. She was like a lifelong heroin addict. She was, she was addicted to a lot of different things. She was charged with putting a gun to a carpet installer's head after he said he wouldn't install carpet in their home until the floors were cleaned. So she put a gun to his head and told them to do it. Seems rational. That seems fine. After the trials were moved, so after the trials and after they were, you know, convicted and put in jail, the buyers family moved to Cherokee Village, which was near the Missouri line, but still in Arkansas. In September 1994, they were both arrested because they

stole $20,000 worth of antiques from a resident's nearby. Wow. Yep. Two weeks after this, Buyers was arrested again and charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Why? He literally forced two teenagers to knife fight. What? He literally stood there and forced one teenager to fight another. With with knives and one of those teenagers got seriously injured. Oh my god. Yeah.

That's a thing. And there were several, there were several witnesses to this and kids that were like, I was like, what the hell is going on? He was like, don't go near them like, this little bitch needs to get his ass whooped. I'm so tired. It was a teenager. Ew. Yeah. A few months later, he was charged with hitting a neighbor's five year old so hard that he left bruises. What is this man?

Now he claims that this little kid was like doing something and he was over for some reason and that he was like, oh, and I just like hit him on the butt with a fly swatter. Like really quick. And the neighbors are like, no, he had bruises. Like you don't have bruises from a fly swatter. Either way, you hit my kid with anything, including just like a nasty look. And I am ending you so hard that your ancestors are gonna know about it. Like what? Like you're gonna sit here and say, well, I only hit him with a fly swatter. I'm like, you like you hit my kid Fuck you mother fucker. That's not your kid like you don't hit other people's kids your own kids

I'm telling you right now. I will end you you touch my kids So that's crazy and by 1994 the two of them Melissa and Mark had 12 misdemeanors Neighbors had restraining orders against them, and the delinquency of a minor charge was on Mark, and the burglary charges for the antiques were on both of them. It's also like, hey guys, you were involved

in like a high profile murder, you're not really gonna fly under the radar for the rest of your life. It's awful that their son was murdered, I'm not making them on a date. Absolutely, anyway, but it's like, that happened to the public eye right now. Yeah, you didn't ask for it,

but maybe don't do all this shit. Because yeah, because it's like people are gonna know about you. I'm gonna know about you. Exactly, and it's not like the two, the buyers were like small shrinking violets. Like they were loud and boy stress and very, very, which they had every right to be

during the trial to be as loud and absolutely and like, you know, aggressive as they wanted to be. But it's like when you do that, know that people are gonna remember you from the trial. So you can't just go stealing $20,000 worth of antiques and making people knife-hitting other people's kids or making two-team teachers knife fight. And respecting everybody just to be like,

okay, well that's good. I'm gonna try and work that way. I avoid people at all costs. Well, and this is this is sad and this is a this is still an unknown. This is a mystery. Oh shit. So March 29th, 1996. There's only a few years after the murders. Yeah, like three years ago. Melissa Buyers was found naked and unconscious in their home at 5.20 pm. Oh shit. I didn't know she was immediately pronounced dead at the hospital. Oh, my God, I never knew that. Yep, it was a mystery because no trauma was present and they literally couldn't figure out what killed her.

Wow. Now, the state police were called in this time and they began investigating this and they said they were investigating it as a possible homicide. Yeah. So they did find injection marks on top of both of her feet inside her right wrist and in her upper right thoracic area to chi-o-d. They said that so a

witness said that Melissa was taking delaudits and Xanax and they also said the buyers were fighting a lot recently and that Mark had been cheating on her and had a girlfriend named Mandy. Oh, yikes. Now, in fact, when the police came and searched the home, Mark was standing outside with his girlfriend Mandy. Oh. Yeah. He also stated that he was worried he was going to be accused of smothering her.

Oh. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, though. The medical examiner could not determine the manner or cause of death and said that there were plenty of drugs in Melissa's body, but not enough to cause death or an overdose. Okay. So they said she did not die of an overdose. So is it hard to tell if somebody was smothered? It's pretty hard to tell if they're smothered. Yeah. Smothering is a hard one to do because it's not the same as strangling. You're not gonna have the marks right to me

It just to come up with that out of fun air the fact that he offered that information is like whoa, dude Like that wasn't even on anyone's mind. What was it actually ruled as well? They also so it's still rule rule does like They found a ton of scars. This is sad. They found a ton of healed scars on her wrists. So she was obviously having a lot of... That made me really sad. Obviously she lost her son. And they also found no alcohol and no opiates in her system,

but they did find delotted in marijuana. But again, they said nothing that would have killed her. Right. And they said those injection marks could have been from the hospital while they were trying to revive her. At least some of them were. But again, no outside trauma, she was found naked.

And it's just weird. And I think what he said was that they laid down to take a nap and he just woke up and she was like that. Yeah, I doubt that. But so that's weird. Okay. That's very weird So in 1997 a year later he ended up getting a ton of hot cheque charges So that's when you don't have enough money in your bank, but you're writing a checking on sit right?

Because of his indigent status He never got charged or punished really because they could just say he you know that that is a reason So then in April 1999 they could just say, you know, that is a reason. So then in April 1999, so at this point, April 1999 comes, he's had all these charges, all these things happening and he's getting away with it. Right. In April 1999, he accidentally dialed a wrong number while making a drug deal. Oh, shit. That wrong number was an Arkansas state trooper. Shut the fuck up, you can't make this shut up. You can't. He accidentally called a state trooper. Shut the fuck up, you can't make this shit up. He accidentally called a State trooper and made a drug deal.

And the State trooper was literally like writing someone a ticket on the side of the road. It was like, hello. And he was just like, and so he was like, yeah, come here, I got the stuff. And blah blah. And he was like, okay, what's the address? I forgot. I didn't write it down. And he just gives his address. and then he's like, okay. You've got, I just put my hand over my mouth. You can't get better than that. Wow. He was arrested.

He finally got an eight-year sentence that was basically for all the other shit too. Because you're like, can you just calm down? He only served 15 months. Why? Because life, you know.? Because life, you know, Jason and Jesse are like real-rooted and spend their whole 18 years in prison for something in the world. He brought this thing out there cause an aruchist and he gets 15 months.

So molasses too. Molasses parents claimed buyers, so they were like not contacted at all during the investigation. And they always thought it was weird. They didn't really know a lot about it. They didn't follow the trial with everything. They were like, we didn't want to know. It was just too hard. Yeah, of course. They claimed that buyers, Mark Buyers beat Melissa more than once, and she would have black eyes. She would constantly, like, he was a violent, violent man. It was so sad. Like, that is a sad, sad life.

It is. it's awful. This, looking into this between Terry Hobbes and Mark Buyers, those poor little boys. Because the shit they had to deal with from these stepfathers is beyond. That makes me sad, I can't even. It's awful. And so Melissa's father said that it was weird

that Buyers claimed that he came back from somewhere the day of the murders and found just found that Chris was not home. Like that was his original claim. Because he said actually Melissa had asked her father that day to stay with Chris after school because he said can you she said can you stay with him when he gets off the bus until markets home. Uh huh. And so he was like, okay, cool. So he said, when I got there, buyers was already home. Oh. And he said, so he, so buyers told him, oh no, I'll get Chris from school. Like don't worry about it. So he was like, cool. Okay. So he went home and he goes, I regret that every day. That I allowed to have

to drop. They also said that Melissa and Mark's marriage was in big trouble. She was cheated. And she wanted to divorce him. And he had told her he would not divorce another woman. Which isn't that real. That's ominous. That's real. Especially with the way she died.

And again, I'm not accusing anyone. He was never found guilty of anything. Her death is still a mystery series of events. But again, take these facts that I'm giving you and just come to your own conclusion. So yeah, so that's weird that he was not going to divorce another woman. She was going to stay with her parents the Friday she died. And when they called that day, Mark told her that she wasn't feeling good and was resting. And then he called later that evening and just said, Melissa's dead.

That's all he said. Oh my God. He told her parents. She was dead by just saying that. Yep. They said that's all that's how he put it. Oh my God. That just made me want to barf. In 1997, a forensic analyst was brought into reexamine the case of three boys. a forensic analyst was brought into reexamine the case of three boys. And he said in regards to Chris Buyers, specifically, there was a record that said that Mark Buyers reported that he had given Chris, quote, a whipping with a belt before he went missing. And he found through, so this expert found three sets of injuries on the buttocks of Chris Buyers. Right. So this expert found three sets of injuries on the buttocks of Chris buyers. He said two were not consistent with a belt whipping. And he said the third set were lacerations that could have been from a belt. But he said quote, and this is really like this jarring.

This is jarring. He said quote, because remember, so he's, I gave Chris a light whipping with a belt. Yeah. Which not a thing. I'm sure, I mean, in different parts of the country, that just happens. I'm like, you know, different strokes for different folks. I was never beaten with a belt. But, you know, like, especially in the South at this time, that was very normal for me.

Yeah. I'm not judging. So everybody calm down. Yeah. It is what it is. I'm sure people have got weapons and they're fine now. You can all calm down. But you know, this was just something. He said he gave him a whipping with a belt before he got on his bike and went to play with these kids. So this expert said, quote, it is further the opinion of this examiner that after having received this set of injuries, which tore open the skin and would have resulted in some severe bleeding, the victim would have been

unable to walk or ride a bike without incredible pain and discomfort. Oh, wow. So you're telling me that he received this quote, light whipping, which tore open his skin. And then he just popped outside and got on a bike and rode off with his friends. Right. No, I don't think so. That doesn't sound right. So that has given people some pause.

Uh huh. And another interesting thing is that they had, they went and they go really into this in west of Memphis, the documentary, and Mara Leveret, who wrote Devils Not, really went into this. If you go to her website, I'll put it in the show notes. She has like a very detailed thing about this. They originally, so they said that they thought a lot of the markings and a lot of the ripping things were from turtles and other things in that water animals.

But they said there was one thing, especially on Stevie branches, I believe his left eyebrow and his forehead that looked like a human bite mark. And when you look at it, it definitely looks like a human bite mark. And it was just like never really touched upon. And so they brought it up later and we're like, what is this? Because forensic odontology is a really good. It's almost like fingerprints. Right.

Everybody's teeth. You think about it's too bungee. Exactly. A lot of that was like breaking that case. Right. So they brought that up and it was starting to become out there that they were like, we need to start taking casts of teeth. They took casts of Jason Baldwin,

Jesse Muskelli, and they did an effect of teeth. None of their teeth fit. Oh, so then they started being like, we should take casts of other people's teeth, like fucking Mark Buyers and Terry Hobbs over here. Well, guess what? Terry Hobbs and John Mark Buyers in the mid 90s had all their fucking teeth removed.

You're shitting me. You're not shitting you at all, and they both had full sets of dentures put in. And later are you fucking kidding me? Moving forward to Terry Hobbs because we're going to that next anyway. Later Pam Hobbs, Terry Hobbs is ex-wife and the mother of Stevie Branch, who later came out and said she believes Terry Hobbs did it. Holy fuck! Yeah. She found a lock box in their house that had a like pack of cigarettes in it, a marble, and a set of partial dentures belonging to Terry Hobbs. And she said, why would they be in a lock box unless he didn't want anyone to be able to compare those fucking dentures? because they were partial dentures

from when that shit was happening. He had those partial dentures when the murders occurred. Right. Then he got the rest of his teeth removed and just got a full set of dentures. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's weird. Uh huh.

And Mara left for the actually details that they had these partial dentures matched up to that bite mark. And again, I'm gonna put the website, the page to it in our show notes. So look for it. It's a good fit. I'm just saying. And also biting, like in the Ted Bundy case, Bundy, Bundy, Bundy, Biting tells a lot of the pathology

of the person doing this crime. Right. Because biting is not something that a lot of people do. It's not something that biting is rage. Biting is control, and biting is like consuming the person that you want. This is something like animalistic. And that's why like Bundi, it fits him.

Like, that's like animal that like can't control himself. And when way these boys died and if you know we'll get into the Terry Hobbs things, the way that some people think that they died, it makes sense. And the fact that it was Stevie Branch who got bitten on the face, and that's his stepfather seems a little fishy, I'm just saying. So now we're going to move on to Terry Hobbs. Okay. This is a little fishy, I'm just saying. So now we're gonna move on to Terry Hobbs. Okay. This is a long one. I'm overwhelmed.

I'm overwhelmed with sadness. It's because it isn't just something that happened to three boys. This is like, D. It's something that still happens to anybody. Exactly. And we still don't have justice for these three little boys.

I like what a cry. It's so sad. Things really fuck off. And regardless of what happened here, these three little boys died in a horrific nightmarish way. And whoever it is, is out there. Yeah. So November 6, 1994, Pamela Hobbs said

that earlier in the day, Terry Hobbs had beaten her with his fists. She called one of her relatives on the phone. I think that this is these people's lives. It is, isn't that so sad? Yeah, like it's just like, the day your son was murdered, you were beaten. The day that Chris Byers was murdered,

he was also pretty easily beaten. It's just so much violence. Right. That's the thing. It's like violence was just so prevalent. And we're not accustomed to that. Like that's not how you were. I mean, I wasn't raised violently. I was raised in a very off way. But it wasn't, but violence, not manner.

Violence, not manner. No, and it's like I was certainly not, and I mean, that's just how my family did things. Everybody's family does some, you know, right, and I'm not saying spankings and whatever. Like that's a very people have their own opinions about it. That's fine. We just didn't grow up with those. That's not what you're used to.

And then you're hearing something to this level. It's jar. Really jar. Yeah, it is. It just is. And it's like, I'm not, I'm not telling anybody how to parent or anything like that. Of course not. This is just how I see things that I don't personally, my personal opinion, and it's just my opinion.

No, because we have the same opinion. I will not teach my children that violence is wrong by committing violence against them. I don't think that is a very good way to do it, but some people it is, to each their own. Exactly. But you know what, it's never okay to beat your spouse. So that's never wrong.

That's never okay. And it's sad that that was their life. Yeah, and it's like, I don't think it's right to beat your spouse. So that's never okay. And it's sad that that was their lives. Yeah. And it's like, I don't think it's right to beat your child either. I'm just going to say it. But it's definitely, I mean, in the, you can't beat your spouse either. So November 6, 1994, Pamela Hobbs was hit, was beaten by Terry Hobbs. She called one of her relatives and told them she said she believed her jaw was broken. That's how hard he had her. Police said that they did see when they showed up to the scene, Pamela Hobbes had bruises on her face

and in the back of her head. Oh my God, injuries. I wonder if she was like, can cussed. Right, so the relatives that she called contacted other relatives and were like, okay, let's go to fucking Memphis and let's confront Terry Hobbs. Yeah, it's good for them.

They confronted Terry Hobbs and Hobbs said, nope, I'm not gonna talk about this, like fuck you guys. And then went out to his truck and got a 357 Magnum pistol, put it in his back pocket. At that point, Pam's brother, Jackie Hicks, came out of the house and he was like,

no fucker, you're not leaving. Like you beat my sister. And this was before, it was this before they knew that the boys had been murdered. This was a year after. Oh, oh, okay. So, or yeah, it's 1944, so yeah, this is a year after. Okay. So a fight started between her brother and Terry Hobbs. Her brother got Terry Hobbs on the ground, and this is when Terry brought out the gun and shot her brother in the abdomen.

Yeah. Oh, Hobbs then reportedly pointed the gun at all of the other people there, and we're threatening them like I'm gonna kill all of you too, which I would believe. Sounds totally normal. When the police came, he was arrested, charged with a

assault on his wife, and aggravated a assault on Hicks, the brother. So there's that whole thing that shows you what kind of person he is. And then watch West of Memphis when you see, because I'm going to mention to you later, soon that he ended up having to do a deposition, because Natalie means from the Dexy Chicks, he sued her over defamation and he lost. And when you sue someone like that, you get to open up your whole history, which was a bad idea for Terry Hobbs, because he had to sit there and answer to all of this. Right. They asked him about the specific incidents and they say, you know, you hit Pam Hobbs, you hit your wife that day in the face, you punched her in the face.

He no joke. Go watch the documentary. I swear I'm gonna like post the clip of it because it is bone chilling. They say that to him and he goes, eh. Oh my God. He literally laughs in this little snarky, like you just want to fucking punch him in the demon. And they go, is that funny, Mr. Hobbs? And he goes, well, you know, like you talk about it that much.

It just becomes whatever. But he, it is an involuntary, I have her funny, hate your wife. Giggle that he does when they say, did you hate your wife? He goes, eh. And it's this like nasty little, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, up the boys. They were able to finally use the DNA. Right. This DNA was hair. And it was like tied up in the shoelaces. This DNA, this hair, was a match to Terry Hobbs. Interesting. What it wasn't a match to was Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin and Jesse Miskelli. Right. None of their DNA was at that scene. But Terry Hobbs was. Probably because they weren't there. Well, and this also matches,

so this particular hair, you can see like the DNA, like the typing and everything, it is a match. It's also, I have to be like right about it. It's a match to 1.5% of the population as well. Okay. But it's also a match to Terry Hobbes. Yeah, I mean, if you look at the,

I mean, they use... It's just in circumstantial evidence. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So why do we they use circumstantial evidence exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So why do we use fucking circumstantial evidence again? So I'm just saying that's just how it is. There was another hair found on the scene that matched to a good friend of Terry Hobbs.

Oh, what a fucking coincidence. David Jacobi. Weird. Terry Hobbs had hung out with David Jacobi the evening of the murders. Oh, also coincidental. Now, David Jacobi actually contradicted Terry's alibi that he had spent a ton of time with him

as his home that night. Yeah. Like, David Jacobi came out and like, messed with this alibi a lot. And they were like, who the fuck is lying here? Basically, he couldn't be consistent with where Terry was between five and nine PM. It's a big, big, big time frame that they went missing and were

murdered. So here's a couple of the versions. So Terry said that the night of them that they went missing, he searched the neighborhood with his four-year-old daughter Amanda for a bit and he saw Dana Moore. He said he followed her to her home and met up with John Mark Buyers in front of his home before six pm.m. He then said, this is when they figured out the three boys were together. Now, this doesn't make sense, though, because Buyers missing person report that he filed was at 8.30 p.m. Also, Buyers filed an affidavit saying he didn't see Terry Hobbs during this time period. So he said, I sat there and I talked to John Mark Byers

before 6 p.m. and Mark Byers signed in half of David's saying, no, I did not see him. So then he also said that he was in the Robin Hood woods between 6 and 6.30 with David Jacobi. So that again, that just contradicted his other statement. In one interview, he described 20 to 40 people out searching. And they said there was like four wheelers, motorcycles, bicycles, it was like tons of people searching.

In another interview, he says probably 100 were looking before dark. Oh, okay. The three victims were last seen at six, and they weren't reported missing until 830 by John Mark Buyers. There was not an immediate search at 6 6 30. So that just a lot. That's just a flat out line. Yeah, exactly. And then David Jacobi said in an affidavit that he was not in the woods with Terry Hobbes at this

time. And his and he was searching with Hobbes by like driving around briefly. He was like I did not go in the woods with him So that's a lie, right He then said that he searched a ton He was like I searched so much and he had many stories about these searches and one He said he walked on a path that led to the creek where they were found in the water, but he didn't go there Mm-hmm And then he also says that he never went within a hundred feet of where the bodies were found. So which one is it? So it's like you literally are just contradicting everything. Now, and again,

this is all just what he said. Like in the original trial, you know, we can't take all of this as evidence. But this is, we're just presenting it like they presented the other. I mean, I was gonna say. Terry Hobbs, you know, like we said, he beat his wives. He beat his children. He assaulted neighbors. There were accusations of child sexual abuse as well. That's awful. You look, West Memphis has an interview with Amanda, the daughter, that poor girl. I didn't look up like an update on her in like 2020.

Yeah. But she went through some shit. Yeah. That's really Yeah. And you can tell that she was really fucked up from having him as a father. It's it's really upsetting. And lots of family members came out saying that she had told them things and that, you know, Stevie had told them things. And it's just like really upsetting. Obviously a house of horrors. Yeah. And I'm not going to go like into detail about that because that this is already a depressing case. Yeah, exactly. A lot of child stuff in it, but like if you want to find it out, you can watch West of Memphis

or read Devil's Not or you know, go to any of these. There was a witness, a neighbor who said that she saw Terry Hobbs with the three boys the evening of the murders. And she said, and she's interviewed in Paradise Lost and West of Memphis, she said no one came to ask her. Right. She was like, when the police came, they didn't ask any of the neighbors anything, which is ridiculous.

Which is crazy. And she was like, the first thing you would do. I saw them with Terry. And she was like, and I didn't think anything of it because that's one of their steps, others. Yeah, exactly. And she goes, but when it all came out later, I was like, whoa, he's saying

that he didn't see them that day. But he would have with them. I saw them with them. Like, he was like, I know I saw them. I spoke to them with him. Right. So that's really fucked up because he's lying left and right

about where he was. Right. So there was also a pocket knife that belonged to Stevie that he was obsessed with. Stevie was obsessed with this pocket knife. It might have been like a scout pocket knife or something. It was just a special pocket knife. It wasn't found on him when he was dead or in with his stuff and they assumed that maybe

it was just gone lost like since it was in the water. It was later found in Terry Hobbs possession. That's fucking weird. Yeah. And that's just weird. And then in West of Memphis, they found three guys who said that Terry's nephew, I think is Michael Hobbs, told them that Terry killed three boys and that it was a quote Hobbs family secret. That's shit. That's shit. Yep.

Now Michael Hobbs, his nephew even went under oath. Oh shit. That this was a seed like a family secret. In 2013, separate affidavits were signed by Billy Wayne Stewart and Benny Guy and these affidavits are, whoa. Now warning, trigger warning, this is graphic, and upsetting. So they said that May 5, 1993, according to both these guys, they said Terry Hobbs, David Jacobi, and two teenagers, LG Hollingsworth and Buddy Lucas, showed up to his house looking to buy some drugs. That's what these guys said. The transactions happening, and while it was, a thing that Hobbes was bisexual, but he didn't want

people to know that. It was just like this weird thing. Not the bisexual thing is weird. I'm saying like that, that it was like this like thing that like people knew, but didn't know. And he was kind of weird about it. Right. What happened after Stuart sold the pot on May 5th, they said that getting back in the pickup, Hobbes de Kobe and the two teenagers drove around. They were just smoking pot, they were drinking whiskey, and then they drove into a dirt road by the Blue Beacon Wood, which is where the Robin Hood Hills is. According to these guys, they said that Terry Hobbes asked the two teenagers to get out

and, quote, wrestle. So while this was happening, he and Jacobi were watching. He said that things, something sexual happened between multiple of them. And this is when Chris Biers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch appeared on their bikes and saw it. Stoort says that Lucas told him that Terry Hobbs screamed, quote, get them little fuckers. Jacobi grabbed one of the kids, started beating him, Hobbs ordered the other two teenagers to pull down his pants. This little, it was obviously Chris Byers. And according to Stuart's Appet David, quote, Mr. Hobbs walked over to the boy that Mr. Jacobi had been beating and repeatedly bit the boy's penis

in scrotum. Oh my god. Then quote, cut the boy's genitals. And then he said that the other boys had to be killed because they saw it. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. It's really messed up. So apparently one of the guys who signed this affidavit said they tried to call the West Memphis police investigator Bill Sanders. And he said he wanted to tell him the story, but he never even returned his phone call. Keep calling.

I know. Now, that was what's his name? Let's see. That was Billy Wayne Stewart Safa David. The other guy was Benny Guy and he told a similar story. He said that while Buddy was staying at his home in 1994, he confessed his involvement in the current killings, but he was one of the guys that was there, apparently. One of the teenagers. Yeah. Guy said in the affidavit that Hollingsworth, one of those teenagers, also confessed in

participating in these murders. And he said that his Hollingsworth actually added a little more details to the whole thing. He said that Terry Hobbs got really pissed because after they had grabbed the boys That one of the boys started kicking him to try to get away. Hobbs hit the boy in the head and shouted quote, I'm going to teach your fucking ass. Oh, no And he said that That you know the same kind of thing happened. There was a beating. There was some awful things happening.

He also said the thing about pulling the pants down. These are two separate affidavits. This is the same thing. And he said, so Guy stated that he sent a letter to prosecutor Scott Ellington in February 2012 putting these two confessions in there. And Ellington in February 2012, putting these two confessions in there, and Ellington never responded to them. Why?

So this was all just ignored. That makes sense. So what kills me is it's like, okay, so we can say the same exact thing that we said about the trial with Damian, Jason, and Jesse, that this is all, this could all be bullshit. This could all be people just talking shit. People lie on affidavits. They do it. They do it in the trial. But why

did we take those first ones into account and not fix three boys and put one of them to death and two of them into life in prison. But now that it's about Terry Hobbes, we're just not even going to look at it. Right. Meanwhile, there's way more evidence. That's in its like, and on top of all that, we have like tons of background here. We have witnesses saying that they can contradict to what he was saying. Hair is at the scene of the crime.

You can't contradict anything that the three boys that Damien Jason and Jesse were saying, because they, there was nothing to contradict. Right. Because it was no fucking evidence. Right. We have fucking hair that takes them out of the scene. It conclusively says that the three of those, the three of them were not the source of

that hair. No. So it's like, wait, so why can we listen to it? It's it matches Terry Hobbs. It matches 1.5% of the population too, but it matches Terry Hobbs and David. And his friend. And David. And you know what maybe, and like if those affidavits are true, his friend wasn't there. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

But he was at his house that day, so maybe some hair got on him and that's how it got there. Exactly. So that's so Pamela Hobbs and her family think he is the murder. Her whole family thinks it. He's just walking around like what the fuck? And they said they started believing this very shortly after the crimes. Like Pamela Hobbs was like,

I started coming to this conclusion like pretty early on. That's really, and were they still married? They divorced pretty quick, but yeah, they were still married at the time. Terry Hobbs was arrested for drug possession in 2003. He was reported twice for abusing his daughter Amanda. And Pamela Hobbs took out a restraining order against him in 2003. He was reported twice for abusing his daughter Amanda. And Pamela Hobbs took out a restraining order against him in 2005. Like I said, they are divorced. And they actually removed

Terry Hobbs' name from Stevie's tombstone. Oh wow. I'm glad that makes good happy. Yeah. Because there was like we're going to get into this in a second. There was many reports of how awful he was to Stevie. And Pamela said that she used to, like, Stevie would have trouble falling asleep and she would lay with him in bed, yeah, until he fell asleep. Yeah. Because you do that as a mother. Uh-huh. And Terry would get pissed because he was, she was taking care of Stevie too much

and not paying attention to him. Like he had grown up. He had a ton of jealousy about Stevie because Pam says that Terry told her, you're spending too much time being a mother and not enough time being a wife. Wow. Wow. I don't even have anything to say about that.

Yep. So, so because of the DNA evidence, all the statements about Terry Hobbes, like all this shit coming to light, Damien's legal team filed a legal motion for a new trial. Because they were like, here's new evidence that takes us out of scene and puts a different suspect in it. So maybe you should listen. So his defense team, they had experts, they announced all the findings. There was a press conference November 1st, 2007, and no new trial was granted, which is absolutely fucking ridiculous. And you can see them presenting this case to the Supreme Court in the West Memphis, West of Memphis documentary. It's infuriating.

So, I think everybody should go watch it. But after this, Natalie means, like I said, from the Dixie Chicks, came out publicly and said, Terry Hobbs did this. Like, she was like, it's pretty fucking clear. He decided to sue her because he said it for defamation and so on there. Like I said, that was a really bad idea because the shit that came out in the sworn deposition that he had to go through was so damning for his character. The what? Are you gonna tell us?

Oh yeah. I was trying to say it quiet. I was like, are you gonna tell us? She's so in it. She's like wrapped in a blanket and she's a state. She's like, are you gonna tell us? I was like, she's like wrapped in a blanket. She's a state, she's like, are you gonna tell us? I was like, what? I need to know.

I'm gonna tell you. Okay. So a few of the main things. So Judy Sadler, who is Stevie's aunt, said Stevie told her that Terry locked him in a closet and beat him. Oh my God. She said that he forced Stevie and his sister,

Amanda to watch porn. Ew. Uh, masturbated in front of them a lot. And what the fuck? Threatened to kill members of the family if Stevie told anybody. Now, Sheila Hicks, who is Stevie's other aunt, said that Terry Hobbs whipped Stevie leaving Welts. Um, she said that he would force him to play dead cockroach, which meant lying on his back with his arms and leg raised, and when he's limbs would get tired and he would try to lower them, he would Terry would quote,

whoop him. What the fuck? She also said that Stevie talked about how Terry and Pam got in a ton of fights, and Stevie saw Terry strangling Pam. Oh my God. These poor kids. Yeah, and she also, this aunt also said that she witnessed sexual abuse of Amanda. Uh-huh. So Marie Hicks, who is Stevie's grandmother, she's interviewed in the West of Memphis, too.

A lot of these people are. She said that Terry Hobbs was physically and sexually abusive. He used drugs. He used drugs. He was an alcoholic. Said that when Amanda was young, that she invited in her that he was sexually abusing her. Amanda Hobbes gave a horrific account of sexual abuse and said she had like repressed a ton of it and didn't even know what was real and what wasn't because she was so traumatized. Of course. That poor girl. Yeah, it really is sad.

At one point in the documentary, she looks just like her mom too. She looks like Pam a lot. Thank goodness. And she says that she said like she feels really like hung out on a limb and the interview was like, what do you mean? And she was like, I feel like like crazy. Like mom went when Stevie died. She was like, I feel like I'm going crazy.

And it's just really sad. Of course she's just a whole life is just a fucking ball of trauma. Like she's just destroyed. Sharon Nelson, who was Hobbes' girlfriend, said that Hobbes said that he had found the bodies before the police, but left them there. Yeah, okay. He says he denies this, but she's like,

no, he told me like he found them and then left them there and let them be discovered. David Jacobi was the one who gave all the contradicting statements saying like, no, I was not the woods. He said he only searched with him for a bit before it got dark. And he also said that when Terry came to his house, he saw the three boys in the street behind him. Uh-huh. Even though Terry

said that he had never seen the victims that morning, that evening, and said that he went on like long trips in the woods with Jacobi. Right. And Jacobi's like, no, no, we didn't. So there's that. Then mildered French. This is another one you got to watch him. When you got to watch him in this, the deposition when he goes to this, because he is such an asshole about this. So mildered French was an elderly neighbor of his. Oh, no.

During the 80s. She said that she heard a woman screaming and then she heard a baby crying. Oh, no. So she went over there and she was she's such a bad I was gonna say what a bad bitch. She was like what the fuck is going on? And he was like you stay out of my business boba and he was like I'm gonna She was like I'm gonna make it my business and I'm gonna call the police the next time I hear you hurting them

Like I'm not dealing with this So then she said she was in the shower one day and he attacked her in her shower and sexually assaulted her. Oh my God. Yes. And she said he also killed her cat. Charges were filed for this assault. And he never really denies this attack, but he like won't talk about it. He's like, it's the past. Yeah, yeah, it is. You're haunting past, buddy. He said he didn't kill the cat, but he won't. And when you see him in the video of the deposition

and he gets, they were like, oh, we wanna, they say like the investigator says, here's the testimony of Mildred French. They give it to her, to him. Yeah. And they're like, you read it over and then we'll talk about it. He literally flips the page of and then slams a shut and just pushes it away. And they go,

what fucking have they go? Did you are you reading it and he goes, no, I'm not reading that. And she was like, so do you remember Melodyd French? And he was like, maybe, I don't know, maybe. And they were like a neighbor of yours that she was, and he goes, oh, yeah, some old lady. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. And you're like you can. Asshole. And they interview her in that documentary and she's like, fuck that. Like she's a bad. I'm him, dude.

So on December 1st, 2009, the case against Natalie mains when he decided to see her was dismissed. She won hell. Yeah. when he decided to sue her, was dismissed. She won. Hell yeah. The judge ruled that Hobb should pay her $17,590 in 27 cents for her legal expenses. That ever happened. Terry Hobb said, quote, I don't give a damn what the judge says. I'm not paying the dixie chicks a thing. There was also the biting evidence that I mentioned earlier, and that he had his teeth pulled in the mid-90s. So, coincidental territory. Well, now, so all of the parents believed that three boys that were in

jail did it. Damian Jason and Jesse. Now, Pam Hobbs came out and said she does not believe they did it. She believes Terry did it, or at least had the capacity to do it, but she doesn't believe they did it right But John Mark buyers was an avid Against them that they did it. They did it. They did it He suddenly turned around and said he thinks Terry Hobbs did it Uh-huh, and that the three in jail did not do it He actually wrote Damien a letter apologizing to him. Wow. Damien actually said he forgave him And was like you lost your child

I can't like you did what you thought you was right at the time and he was like I'm not gonna hold on to that shit Because he's a Buddhist. He is he's such a Buddhist. So I don't have that kind of there's a Clip of Terry Hobbs going into like one of the hearings like for probably his deposition or something and John Markiplier's is in front of an entire like probably his deposition or something and John Markiplier's is in front of an entire bunch of reporters and goes there's the baby killer now oh shit and like and Terry Hobbs turns around and gives him a look that could get me high and I was like he's gonna kill John my first run I was like what the fuck it was a scary because some people are just pure it was scary. And when you realize it, you see it all over them. And then when asked about it, like who he thought was responsible for this, like what he thought happened.

John Markbier said, quote, Terry Wayne Hobbs, I don't know how much clearer I have to make it. Wow. So yeah. So what ended up happening to get these three out of jail, we're reaching the end to now. So everybody can breathe. Was they got out of jail?

Because at this time, as you can see, nothing was happening for them. None of their pills. All this crazy shit is happening on the outside. And they're like, hey, all this evidence is being brought forward that is exonerating them basically and putting more people in there. They're not getting any of this They're also there's all these celebrities working on their side disease this mass amount of people that are on their side Just working for them and they're just sitting there rotting in jail So they ended up using an Alfred plea and so in November of

2010 the Arkansas State Supreme Court did order a new trial after the DNA evidence failed to connect them. Okay. The court ruled that they could present the new evidence at the new trial to try to say that they were innocent. So while this is all coming into fruition, this is when the Alfred plea deal was coming into fruition too. So Steve Braga, one of Damien's attorneys suggested that they try a very rare legal move. This is the Alfred plea.

So basically it's where a defendant pleads guilty but maintains their innocence. So where this plea began, because there's always a precedent. Was in 1970, Supreme Court case where Henry Alfred was indicted for first degree murder. He claimed he was innocent and he said he was aware that witness statements and evidence would not really make him look great. And he said he was stuck in this like I know I'm innocent but I know I'm going to get convicted because this is pretty damnning shit, but I really didn't do it. So he said he wanted a plead guilty, and he said, I pleaded guilty on second degree murder

because they said there's too much evidence, but I ain't shot no man, but I take the fault for the other man. We never had an argument in our life, and I just pleaded guilty because they said if I didn't, they would gas me for it and that is all. I'm not guilty but I plead guilty. Okay. And it's North Carolina versus Alfin. So basically he was saying, I don't want to get the gas chamber. So I'm going to get the death penalty if I plead not guilty and go through this trial. Uh huh. So I'm just going to plead guilty so that they don't kill me, but I'm not guilty. Okay, so he's pleading guilty while maintaining innocence. So the Arkansas prosecuting attorney said that the steal was not awesome, but he said, quote,

it certainly was not a perfect resolution in the case for the state, but it was much better than having three trials trying to convince 36 jurors of the defendant's guilt using old evidence failed memories changed minds Dead witnesses and the parents of two of the victims who now say they believe the defendants are innocent of the crimes Right, so this is the state saying yeah, this police sucks because we're gonna let what we believe are three Child murderers out yeah, totally like the other option is that all these people come forward and say that they don't believe that they did it and that evidence proves that. And then we have to convince them. I wish they were able to do that. It's ridiculous. So August 19, 2011, they entered the Alfred plea and walked out of court. Free men. Good. But Jason said, he almost said no to this deal. He was on paper.

He's still technically a murderer. Because he said I was ready. He said I was not ready to plead guilty to the crime because he's like, I didn't commit it. And I won't plead guilty to it. He said and still says it wasn't justice, but he said that he did it for Damian because he said he was having such a horrible prison experience.

He was like, we obviously prison sucks for everybody. He was like, his experience was far in a way different than what me and Jesse's were. And he was like, his health was failing. I was worried that he was just going to die in prison. And they were going to kill him anyway. And they were going to kill him. So he said to save Damien, he did it, but he otherwise wouldn't have agreed to it. And the plea makes it so the three can't sue the state of Arkansas for imprisoning them

for over 18 years for crime. I wish they fucking could. They were imprisoned for over 18 years, Damien on death row for 18 years. It's unbelievable. And so now, basically, it's like, so now on paper, they are three convicted felons. And they are three convicted of three capital murder charges, each of child murder. Yeah. So now, like I said, buyers thinks that Terry Hobbs did it.

He thinks the three are innocent. So his Pam Hobbs, Jason Baldwin became the co-founder of Proclaim Justice, which you can find at ProclaimJustice.org. And it's a nonprofit that aids those wrongfully convicted of crimes. Once they decide to take on a case, they'll fund the re-investigation and legal representation. Because he was like, I want to help people that were in my shoes. Yeah. He also was pursuing an undergraduate degree and plan to go to law school. Wow. Because he studied law in prison.

He just wants to continue to overturn and prevent wrongful convictions. He travels everywhere speaking for the abolition of the death penalty and also the abolition of juvenile life sentences without parole. Which we've covered a couple cases like that. He's married to a woman named Holly. Oh, he made like met while he was in prison.

I love love. And they just like appears to be doing amazing, amazing. Damien, because he wasn't outside of a concrete cell for over a decade, his eyesight suffered immensely. Oh, no. It was damaged a lot. Now he has to wear sunglasses 24-7. He can't see more than a couple of feet in front of him,

because your eyes are like training to see far all the time, like by looking at far away things. Right. When you are only looking at something that's right in front of you for 10 years, your eyes stop training to see far. Right. So they can't see far anymore.

What are you looking at? I think they're in there. So they can't see far anymore. What are you looking at? I think they're in there. So that's a little creepy pause that Ash thought she saw my kids under the door in the adjoining room where we're recording, but they're not there. And I just opened the door and they're downstairs.

I swear I saw feet under there. I was like, that's creepy. So yeah, so Damian has a ton of eye issues. He suffers from PTSD. He had a traumatic brain injury in prison for beatings. He said he had such constant beatings from guards that he would be quote, pissing blood. He also said he suffered crazy teeth issues

because they don't give any medical or dental care on death row. And they just told him, we can either pull them all out or you can suck it up. Oh, you just suck it up. By the end of his prison sentence, he had embraced Buddhism. And like I said, it was meditating five to seven

or eight hours a day. He married a woman named Lori Davis in prison in 1999 in a Buddhist ceremony. Yes. They are still married. They wrote a book together. Yes. They exchanged love letters and stuff.

She was like, she was like very successful and very with it and just heard about the case, studied the case, and then message him in the 90s. She I am Tim. She I am Tim. She sent him a letter in prison. He said that he loved that she started it by apologizing for invading his privacy

by sending him. Writing him. And he was like, and that just struck me is like, that's really nice of her because nobody thinks of me as having any rights. So it gets nice. So they're in love and married. They live in NY, New York City.

He did live in Salem for a while. He said he felt like he belonged there, because it's like the epicenter of like he made a career out of the study of magic with a K. That's cool. He's written three books. The latest one was High Magic, a guide to the spiritual practices that saved my life on death row. And it's basically showing people like how he survived with meditation and like

ritual and all that. He does retreats that's focused on spiritual magic. He's done art. He's gotten tons of tattoos. He always wanted to get with Johnny. He was with Johnny. Yeah. Like he's just like their living their lives.

They came out of here. They went in in 93. They came out in 2011. They didn in in 93. They came out in 2011. They didn't know what a fucking cell phone was. Like, they had to learn everything. Yeah. And one of the things in West of Memphis is Holly and Jason on the couch in the hotel

after he was released. Oh gosh. And they're sitting there. And his mom comes. My goodness. Oh my God. He opens the door and he goes, Mom, and says it like a little boy and hugs her.

And I like wanted to die. I was crying. I was like seriously, it's just the sweetest thing ever. And he was able to hug her. And he was able to hug her. He couldn't hug his mom for eight to fucking her. And he was so happy to see her and she like maintained like through the whole time.

Like he is innocent, you know? And then Holly, his wife was saying, like he was showing his mom, his new suitcase. And Holly said, I was so confused because I gave him this new like fancy suitcase. And he loved it. And he said, I've never had a suitcase before. Oh my heart.

Like it's just, like it's little things like that that I don't think of. Right. And Damien said he would get up in the middle of the night, sometimes and sleep in the bathroom on the floor because he just wasn't used to that much space. Like space was freaking him out. Yeah. It makes sense. So he would get up and literally lay on the floor by himself in the bathroom to be in like a confined space. Wow. So it's like they had to go through so much shit coming out of there. Right. Right. So much.

But it seems like they're doing okay. I think Jesse had a little mishap with a driving with that license. Okay. But Jesse, there's no update on that. But other than that, they've been staying on it. They've definitely, I mean, Jason and Damien are definitely thriving.

I think I hope Jesse is too. Yeah. But there's not a lot in Jesse. But, you know, I think this is a is too. Yeah, but there's not a lot in Jesse, but okay, you know, I think this is a tragic case Yeah, nobody has seen justice for these old boys deaths I hope somebody gives a deathbed confession to be quite honest It's like it doesn't even matter like but that won't even be justice either Exactly. You just want to know. It's one of those like the John McCain stuff. You just want to know. Yeah, I mean maybe you know

I don't know I know do know. I don't know. I know. Do we know? I don't know. I know. But either way, that is the end of the West Memphis 3. The West Memphis 3 slash four parts. And I hope you guys enjoyed it. I know where. Choreified by Go Read Devils Not, Go Read Damien's books. I highly recommend life after death. His book, Jason also wrote a book. I'm gonna post all these in the show notes. Go Read My Elevates Devils Not, Go Watch West of Memphis, the Paradise Lost Documentaries. Don't go see Devils Not the Movie,

because it's so bad. Oh my God, it's horrible. But definitely go look up this case and go find out all you can because it'll blow your mind for real. But yeah, so thanks for that. Well, go ahead and follow us on Instagram to see our last post about the West Memphis 3 at Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Instagram or no Twitter at a Morbid Podcast.

Join the Facebook group Morbid Cool In, a morbid podcast join the Facebook group more big cool in a true crime podcast and this a Gmail morbid podcast at gmail.com and check out our website for updates on our live shows morbidpodcast.com we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird I also don't want to do it for this sorry bye Weird! I also don't want to do it for this side, bye! Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.