Morbid - Episode 152: The Life and Mysterious Death of Marsha P. Johnson

Episode Date: June 28, 2020

Marsha P. Johnson was a pioneer for LGBTQ rights and a notable figure in the infamous Stonewall Uprising of 1969. She championed for transgender youth and gave back to her community throughout her short life. When she was found floating, dead in the Hudson River not long after the 1991 Pride parade. Her cause of death was noted as drowning but questions remain. How did she end up in the Hudson? Was this a tragic accident, a suicide or something more sinister? Thanks to our sponsors! Embark This summer, Embark has a limited time offer just for our listeners! Go to Embarkvet.com now and use Promo code MORBID to get $50 off your Dog Breed and Health kit. Purple Experience the next evolution of sleep. Go to Purple.com/morbid, and use promo code morbid. For a limited time you’ll get $150 off any Purple mattress order of $1500 or more! Terms apply. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Elena. And this is morbid. It's a morbid. Mini, mini, mini, mini, mini morbid. Mini morbid, mini, morbid, mini, morbid. I guess this is technically the mini, but yeah. We don't do, I mean, considering we just recorded your episode and it was two hours long. This is the mini, but it's not a real mini. But it's like a normal, because that's what we do now.

Because we just love this show. We just want to give you full-length episodes and call the minis. Yeah, that's what we wanna do. Because Alina's was so ridiculously long that's so fucking good, we decided not to do any bid-nass in the beginning. Yeah, we just cut right to it. But because mine is like a little bit,

a lot a bit shorter than Alina's, we're gonna do some bid-nass. Let's do some bid-nass. So our shows, we're not gonna be at the punchline, comedy club in Philadelphia on August 11th, but we will be there. We will. We're gonna be there. We're working on another date for that one. So hang on to your tickets you already have. We will have another date for you. Yes. Very unlikely that on September 16th we'll be at the DC in Provin, Washington DC, but we'll work on it.

We're all holding on to hope here. It was looking a lot more likely a couple of months ago. Yeah, but then everybody just stopped doing what they were doing, I guess. Where are your masks? September 23rd, we have two shows in Nashville at Zainey's. Yay Zainey's. September 24th, we have a show in Huntsville, Alabama at Stand Up Live. Huntsville. Two shows October 11th at Talia Hall in Chicago.

Oh, everyone crossed their fingers that were there during spooky season. And a lot of people have asked just while we're speaking of October if we're going to be at CrimeCon, we are supposed to be there. Yeah we're still planning on being there if if Florida gets a shit together. I'm gonna be honest with you. Yeah. We're planning on being there but if it's the same as it is now, we probably won't be there. But as of right now we will be there. I'm watching very closely to see what that creates. Well, and I'm wondering if it's going to get changed again.

Yeah, they might change it again. Who knows, because we don't know where we'll be in October. But if it's still a thing, we'll see you there. We will be there as long as you get your shit together, Florida. Oh, yeah. November 10th, we're going to be at the comedy zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte.

Charlotte. Jean Charlotte. Jean Charlotte. And then November 11th, we're supposed to be at the Good Night's comedy club in Raleigh, North Carolina. Raleigh, I really want to come to North Carolina. As do I. January, I don't have it in front of me,

is the 27th. New it, 27th January 27th, we're going to be in Green of me, is it 27? 27. New it. 27th January 27th we're going to be in Greenwich Village, Colorado, at ComedyWorks South. And I, that one seems good. That's, yeah, I mean, that was just recently rescheduled. If we're not good by January, I'm going somewhere else. Yeah, I'm going somewhere. I'm going to the moon Alice.

I don't know. And then last, but absolutely not least least March 26, 2021, we will fucking see you at the Wilbur Theater in Boston because if it's not settled by March, I'm on my way to Mars. That's right. And get your tickets for that show. Go on the Wilbur.com website and get your tickets

because we want to fill that place up with crazy weirdos. Do it. Tickets, tickets. Get your tickets. So the Wilbur show. Getcha. We want to be able to fill the place so we can come back. So Tickets, get your tickets. So the Wilbur shows. So we want to be able to fill the place so we can come back. So make sure you get your tickets for it

because we will be there in March. We will be there or we will be crying. We will be very sad. That's sad. Well, oh, also everybody. So we know that most of this time has been shitty lately because everything is going wrong in the world.

And with COVID, with everything else, it's just like a horrible time right now. Sure it is. So we wanted to put a smile on your faces. We have a lot of exciting things coming up in July. July is going to be a fun, morbid month. Fun morbid month. The first two weeks of July, we have big announcements. Yes. Big, we have big announcements. Yes. Big, big,

big announcements. And then a few weeks into July, you're gonna know that from your announcement that something exciting is gonna be there. It's true. So, if that explanation didn't get you excited, that something's gonna be there. That very clear and concise explanation. I mean, I don't know what more I could have said. Basically, July's gonna be really fun for morbid. We're hoping it's gonna be a really exciting positive experience. We have tons of fun stuff happening. And we can't wait to doll you out.

With that being said, it's time to move on to this week's case, which is Ash Centric. It's Ash Centric. Also, this human being seemed like she was Ash Centric, and I really wish that we could have been best friends. I agree. I totally agree with that. This week, we're going to be talking about Marsha P. Johnson.

Oh, let's do it. Now, I am so excited to talk about this. Most of this is going to be about Marsha's life, just because Marsha's death did happen, obviously. Yeah. And like, it's definitely a questionable death, but there's not a ton about it because the investigation wasn't really a thing. Yeah. Because it was a time. So it was a time. Let's dive into this. Let's do it. Marsha P. Johnson was born on August 24th, 1945, and she was born in Elizabeth, New Jersey. Love that.

So, Marsha's name at birth was actually Malcolm Michael's juniors. As most of you know, Marsha was essentially the most iconic transgender woman of all time, basically. So I think that is not called like a dead name? I'm not sure. She would go by both. So I don't necessarily know if her was like a dead name. I'm not sure. She would go by both. So I don't necessarily know if hers was like a dead name,

but I have her. I didn't know that that she went by both. Sometimes she would like dress as Malcolm and like people would refer to her as Malcolm. Her family referred to her as Malcolm or Marsha. It was very like back and forth. Yeah, fluid. So she was the most iconic transgender woman, the most iconic drag queen, the most iconic

activist. And we're a big drag race. Oh, serious. On cast here. So, we really transitioned. Marsha was the fifth of seven children. Wow. Lot of kids.

That's a lot of kids. And according to blackpass.org, I got a ton of information from there, really cool website, blackpass.org. I found out there that Marsha knew that she identified as a woman since she was like super young. She started dressing up in girls clothing around the age of five. Wow. And it's like, when you know, you know.

Oh yeah, of course. Obviously it was the 40s, late early 50s, excuse me, and her parents weren't super stoked about that because that was just not a thing back then. That makes me so sad. It is really sad. Her parents weren't happy about it and honestly like nobody was at all. Yeah, of course not. She set herself. No, not at all. She set herself that she stopped for a while because the boys next door used to quote, get fresh with her. Oh, that's what she said. She was... This makes me sad.

This is gonna make you even, Tyler. She was sexually assaulted by one of those boys when she was about 12. Let's punch them in the face. Let's punch all of them in the face. And she says she didn't even know like what sex was at that point. No, you're 12. She was like, I was married Jesus. That's all I knew. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're 12. She was like, I was married Jesus. That's all I knew. Yeah, that's all I knew.

Like, your interviews are fucking incredible. You're a baby. Well, that's the thing you just don't know. And she's like, she describes how it happens. I'm not going to say it how she says it. But she's just like, yeah, this happened. And you know, that's what I knew that that's how life worked. And it's like, oh, okay.

But in so young to learn such a terrible lesson about your old. Well, your shitty people are. Seriously. So she did manage to get by and survive and finish high school. And after that, she was like, yeah, fuck this place. I'm going to New York. Fuck this mess. Fuck the shit out of this.

She went to New York with $15 to her name and one bag of clothes. That kind of shit is always crazy to me. Especially back then too. It's like holy shit. Because even today when people are like, I moved to LA or New York with like a hundred bucks of my bank account and that was it.

It's like, but how though? Like where did you live? Like how are you existing? Well, Marsha was homeless. But this really, this was the time in Marsha's life that was going to be like the catalyst for the rest of her life. So she was homeless and she would sleep in the movie theater

and she did work as a sex worker to make money. A lot of people that knew Marsha, they say that they don't know how she got through this time. But that was the time that she met her people and like came into her home. And like formed her family. Informed her family. So it was like a scary time in her life and like came into her home. And like formed her family. And formed her family. So it was like a scary time in her life

and like a very unsure time, but it was also an amazing time in her life. The time when she was forming like the foundation. Exactly. So she was spending a lot of her time on Christopher Street. Christopher Street and Greenwich, is it Greenwich Village? Greenwich Village.

Greenwich Village in New York. It was a place where a ton of members of the LGBTQ plus community would kind of congregate and hang out, they do like voguing and stuff, like have tons of fun, like they were just having a fucking time and they'd celebrate who they were together. So that's where Marsh's place was.

She really became, that's when she started performing as a queen coming into her own. Yeah. She said she never took drag seriously because she didn't have the money, too. She was like, I was just doing what I wanted to do. Well, I didn't have the money to actually like really make it like a career.

So she didn't have a lot of money, but the money that she did have, she spent it super wisely and she made these like amazing flower crowns, which she's always pictured in. Oh wow, she really is here like. She also... I was watching the documentary and I was like, and like reading all these articles and I was like, got a cry and I did actually cry because I was like, I love you so much.

Oh. She just seemed like the shit. Ugh. So she would weave these flowercrons into her hair and then she'd put on performances with these like gorgeous like flowers and her outfits that she put together, which her outfits were not like,

they weren't anything like expensive or like super flashy, but the way she put them together, it was so awesome that it made her money. Like that's how she made money. That's a skill. It is. Her personality was so kind and so sweet. Everybody wanted to be around her.

So that's how she really became who she was because who she was gathered all these people around her that were like, you're the tits. We love you. You're the tits, Marge. She had people around her all the time, and literally, like, not one person had anything bad to say about her,

which is like, I feel like it's always the case. It makes it so much harder knowing how this ends. Right. Hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena. And Ash! And we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa!

You know when you would come home from high school school and it was only a few hours until that TV show everyone was watching was about to come on? Well in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So, get out your knee-high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners

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So let's go back to Christopher Street, Marsha's stomping ground. This seems like the Paris's burning kind of like scene. Oh, that's exactly what it is. Like, picture that. Picture that. So Christopher Street was her stomping ground. That's basic. That's where her home was. OK. Also home to the Stonewall Inn, which I'm sure you've heard of.

Sure have. So in the 1960s, a lot of the members of the LGBTQ plus community were not allowed in bars, like any bar at all. And there were constant raids to see if they were. In bars, because at the time being gay was illegal. That will never get like, oh yeah, that time. That was, yeah, it's never like,

that time when who you slept with was against the law. That's a consenting adult. Or like not even who you slept with, who you danced with. Who you love. You couldn't dance with a member of the, a member of the same sex in public or you would get arrested. Wow.

You, anybody considered to be male dressed up as a woman would face sexual deviancy charges? That's insane. And it was completely normal for a bar to be find for having that kind of activity or completely shut down just for serving somebody of that community. So like if you served a drink to like a gay man at

the time you either would have been fine or shut down. So you literally have to be like, Hey, are you gay? I can't serve you. Like you have to. Or not even they just fucking read you and were like, Oh, you're definitely gay. Like judged you and were like, I can't serve you. Or the police walked in and saw that a gay or lesbian was being served. And they were like, well, you're done, you're shut down. Oh my God. And they were basically being hunted in these rates.

And imagine the NYPD taking all that time to do that kind of bullshit. When they really could have been doing a lot of other better shit. Yeah, so. So, probably got some other stuff you could have been paying attention to. Probably, but who am I to say?

Okay, NYPD. Okay. So, the Stonewall Inn was actually owned by members Yeah, probably got some other stuff you could have been paying attention probably, but who am I to say okay? NYPD okay, so the Stonewall Inn was actually owned by members of the mafia Specifically of the Genevieve's crime family. Oh shit. I did a whole project on them in my criminal justice class and coach intense I did like a wicked huge project lots to do. I think one of the live shows I did there was Lucky Luciano. Oh, yeah, he either a member, like closely affiliated with the family. Yeah. Anyway, that's a different story. So the Mafia knew that the gay community needed a place to go and they ended up running a lot of the gay bars in New York when they came to that realization that that's how they could make a post-golf. I was gonna say because they were like they can make money. That's where the money's at.

So the Stonewall Inn was supposedly, or excuse me, it was supposed to be like a private like bar, it was like a club where you brought your own alcohol you were supposed to. Eli will be. Bewah will be kind of, and you were supposed to sign this guest book to get in. Like it was supposed to be this private exclusive thing.

Oh, okay. It wasn't really, they just did that for like a formality kind of thing. Oh, okay. It wasn't really, they just did that for like a formality kind of thing. Oh, okay. And it was mafia owned, like I said. It became huge in the gay community. This was the place to go because anybody was welcome as long as you had the money to get in.

The mafia didn't care what the fuck you were doing. And it gave a shit. If you had the money, you were in. They don't care who you love, just get in here with your money. Yep. And at the time, drag queens weren't welcome in any of, like, even the gay underground bars, drag queens weren't welcome because...

I guess I'm the best. Drag queens aren't the best. I'm glad that that... I'm glad that that... I'm glad that that... I'm glad that that... I'm glad that that... Definitely switched over.

But at the time, even in the LGBT community, the tea wasn't loved. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. It was the LGBT community. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we don't want to be associated with you. Keep the tea out of there. Which is fucked up.

But at the Stonewall, that's where dry queens could go perform and like live their best lives. So it was considered safe because a lot of the times, the crooked cops would warn the mafia that when these raids were going to be happening, so they got tipped off. Okay. Which then they could get their shit and check

and be like, oh, we're closed tonight early. Yeah, like, so and so, yada yada you and you don't come in tonight. That makes sense. But on June 28th, which is Moss birthday. Hey. So on June 28th, 1969, police officers showed up at Stonewall unannounced.

Didn't tip anybody off that they were coming. They arrested around 13 people. They beat so many people that were there. Female officers took women into the bathroom to verify their sex. That's fucking disgusting. Can you even imagine a time where like that is a thing that happens? I would. You're all correlating to the bathroom and you're basically like pulled down your pants. Show me your vagina. Right, like that's not okay.

I would, oh. And I want to kick those female cops in their vagina. Oh, yep, me too. I want to kick all anybody in their penis or vagina if they get that to somebody. That makes me so angry, the thought of somebody having to verify what's between their legs. That in ranges me. That's like to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody.

They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody.

They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody.

They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They did that to somebody. They's never gonna be normal to me that cops spent their fucking time doing this. It's never. So much else to be doing. It's gonna be normal to me. I'm like, you guys are fucking losers doing this.

Yeah, seriously. So people around the area and people who had made it out of the bars started fighting back against this raid because they were fucking done with these raids. Like, they were happening constantly and it was like, it's time to fight back. And they're probably thinking the same thing.

What the fuck are you guys spending your time doing this? Right, nobody's hurting anybody. Like we're all just here drinking, having a good time. We're not bothering you. Like go talk. We're not murdering people, we're not raping people. Like, solve some rapes and murders and some other stuff. Like get out of our faces just like.

Exactly. Well, people got especially angry when a woman who was a lesbian was arrested and hit over the head with a Billy Club. What the fuck? And as she got like hit in the head while she's getting arrested, she yelled at these people, like,

let's do something. Are you gonna fucking do something? And that's when people started, like, really fighting back, chanting gay power. We shall overcome. Yes. They started throwing beer bottles, change anything they could at the police.

The police took cover inside the stone wall in. Oh! I'm like, also now that's your safe space, okay. Okay. With the people that they arrested because they obviously didn't want them to like get away. And they're trying to get away from it all. And that's when somebody tried to set the building on fire.

Oh shit. So it's argued if a policeman or like police woman was the one that set the stonewall in on fire, or if it was like somebody in the angry mob or like who it was, nobody really knows. But people do speculate that a cop actually set it on fire. The fire department was able to save the building and everyone in it, but that was just the fucking beginning. Oh yeah, that was just the catalyst. So Marsha P. Johnson, our girl, Hey Marsha. Was 23 at the time that the stone wall happened.

Okay. Stone wall and happened the whole night. And she was there when it happened. So she's believed to be one of the first people that started their resistance. Apparently there's two stories. She either threw a shot glass out of mirror or threw it out of cob and said, I love this. She tossed it and she said, I got my civil rights.

Like now it's time to do this. She's like, fuck this. She's like, all right, next on the list. So for five days following the resistance at Stonewall. There was protests and gatherings and marches and just like gay people, lesbian people, wanting to bring attention to the fact that this was a community and they weren't fucking going anywhere.

Yeah. So the first pride march happened because of the people who fought back and Marsha was one of the most influential people involved in the movement. Amazing. Love it. I fucking love her so much.

Such a badass. So Marsha had another friend who was a transgender woman and activist named Sylvia Rivera. They started Starhouse together. And that stands for Street Transvestites Action Revolutionaries. And obviously back then it was acceptable. I mean it was even acceptable when a Rock-E-Hor-Picture show was out.

Yeah exactly. That song, Sweet Transvestite. Yes. It's very weird to hear now. It is very weird to hear now. But it was one of those things that you looked back on and you're like, ooh, okay. Yeah, that's not a nice word.

I was like, should I say that? But that's what it was called. I mean, I was called. So, but we call it, they call it Starhouse, which I love. I love that. So Starhouse was a legit house where Sylvia and Marsha housed transgender youths who were homeless, like, and had nowhere else to go.

They gave them clothing, money, they advocated for their rights. They were able to get the house by making a deal with Michael Umbars, who was a mob guy. So the mob, it's really, there's actually a lot of books about it that I found during this, where the mob and the gay community were really closely knit together. That is so funny. It is funny, because I never knew that. I didn't know how closely connected it was.

No, but they were. Wow. So he owned the building and basically the building wasn't in good shape at all. It was like dilapidated and they told him, let us get in there for cheap, like give us cheap rent and we're going to renovate the building. Yeah. And he was like, cool, let's get it. Let's get it. And that's exactly what they did. They fucking renovated the place like completely. It was like, damn, they did a great job. Um, Marsha referred to the people who lived in the house as her children and they called her the Queen mother. Oh a great job. Um, Marsha referred to the people who lived in the house as her children, and they called

her the Queen Mother. Oh, stop it. Like, okay. Like, okay. Sylvia herself said that Marsha was like a mother to her, and that Marsha saved Sylvia's life. Oh. Because Sylvia's life was tragic.

Her father was never around, like from the start he left basically at her birth. When she was three years old, her mother completed suicide. Oh, no. And then Sylvia ran away from home when she was 11 because she started getting beat and abused when her family found out that she was wearing woman's clothing. Like, can you imagine for putting on a drink? Like now you see little boys all the time, like also an ono dresses and it's fine. Like who gives a fuck, like their children. Like I literally never care as long as it is weather-appropriate. I don't know what my kid is wearing at all.

They dress themselves every day. Right, because it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean anything. And like, I'm asking you to wear it? No, so let me live my life. And also I'm a female and I don't like wearing dresses. No, I mean, I like wearing dresses, but- Let's stop shoving it on people.

It's just saying, like, stop making a norm for like across the whole thing. Right, your girl, you need to wear dress. I go in the men's section of Target all the time and buy the big t-shirts and like, cut them up and like, I'm like, cool, this is mine now. It's just, I don't understand like where I So it's so weird how social like gender norms came about. It really is like women do this. Well if you think about it

It was illegal for women to wear pants for a long time like what the fuck and that's but you know what that's where it came from when it was like You have to wear dress right so nuts. So that's why Sylvia ran away So she was like a preteen when she met Marsha and Basically she said as Marsha saved her life and they became like best friends But she Marsha was really a mother figure for Sylvia and all the other kids in this house Marsha Marsha Marsha Marsha, but she gave Sylvia full credit for founding starhouse And she said that she was just like a vice president She was like nope like this is Sylvia. I'm just along for the ride.

We love a humble queen. Right. I'm like probably gonna cry during this one because I fucking love her so much. A ton of people refer to her as a saint and it really seemed like she was. She would take some, like if you complimented her on like a scar for a brooch or even probably the flowers in her hair, she would immediately be like, oh, you like this. Like here you go. Take it off and give it to you.

And people like that are so rare. They seriously are. So, Starhouse was amazing, but it was super short-lived. Mike ended up kicking them out because they couldn't make rent. That makes me sad. Which it's like, they didn't,

they didn't really have an opportunity to get the jobs that other people got because they were transgender. So they were like turning tricks and trying to do anything they could just to put a roof over their heads. And then at the end of the day, they weren't able to do that. And he just fucking kicked them to the curb. That sucks. So Sylvia went on to develop another starhouse location, but that one really didn't last long either for the same exact reasons.

So in a 1973 rally for gay rights, Sylvia got up on stage and pleaded to the thousands of members that they just weren't doing their part for their transgender brothers and sisters, and that she was like, there's literally people, transgender people in jail right now, writing to Starhouse for me to help them, and they need your help.

And I'm the only one advocating for this like please help us. Like I can't do this alone. Exactly. It's exactly what she was saying. She begged them to listen to make a change and they all just fucking booed her. That's fucked. Like booed.

And these are members of the LGBT community. It's so crazy. And back then they did not want to be associated with the tea. That's nuts. I had no idea that that was so like. Neither did I. T. That's nuts. I had no idea that that was so like- Neither did I. I had to disconnect. I had no idea.

A huge disconnect. And it's because really of Martia and Sylvia and people that worked with them that the T is included now. Yeah, absolutely. And it took a long time. So, she faces this huge booing crowd. And after this, she really has a rough go of it. Because, I mean, both star houses failed in this.

It was like her dream. She just wanted to advocate and help, and she felt like she couldn't. So, for a while, she started drinking heavily. She lived on the Christopher Street pierce, and after we find out that Marsha passes away, this is just a little glimpse into Sylvia's life, and after Marsha passes away,

that's when Sylvia really faces like a huge decline. Oh, that makes me sad. She's homeless for a long time because there was a big homeless community living on the Christopher Street Pears and the NYPD did a sweep of the homeless people there. And that's what they called it, a sweep. A sweep. It's like, okay. So, okay.

But her life does turn around. I'm just going to, I just wanted to focus on her for a second. In 1997, she showed up at a house that was a lot like the star house. And this is Sylvia. This is Sylvia. The transie house. And that's what it's called. Rusty Maymore and Chelsea Goodwin were a transgender

couple and they were living with their friend who was also transgender. Okay. Now they didn't set out to like advocate or anything, but word got around that to transgender woman like owned this house. So then people started showing up there because they were like, oh, like especially transgender men and women were like, oh maybe you can help me. Yeah. And it kind of turned into star house. Oh, that's so crazy. That's like not at all what they start to do. It like turned into a star house. Exactly. So word

got around and the three of them really started helping people. And it was just a happy accident. And Sylvia spent the last years of her life there. So her life completely turned around. She got sober. Oh, I love hearing that. She ended up living there. She met a partner there.

I love it. She got to travel just like Marcia did around the world at different Pride and Gay events. And at one event, they ended up chanting her name, like calling her queen and like thanking her for everything that she did. Oh, that's so nice to hear. It's amazing. She passed away in 2002,

but her memory lives on in a huge way. A lot of people say that Sylvia was like the Rosa Parks of the transgender movement. Oh, wow. And had Marsha lived longer, the two of them would have done it together for a much longer. Absolutely. Sylvia's place now, it's called Sylvia's Place.

It's a shelter for trans women and those looking to escape domestic abuse, abusive relationships. It's still around today. And you can donate to Sylvia's Place by going to Sylvia'splace.com slash take-action slash donate. I wanna donate. I want a donate. I want a two too.

So we can donate after this. Let's do it. So that was just a quick glimpse into like Sylvia and Marsha's relationship. I love that. And now we're going to go back to Marsha. All right, back to Marsha. So Marsha had a wild life. After she did everything at Stonewall and like the Marches and everything,

she joined Hot Peaches. Hot Peaches. Hot Peaches was a theater group that focused on LGBTQ plus, like culture. It was like, basically they traveled doing these shows. I love that one. It was awesome. They're still around today, I'm pretty sure.

They made Hot Peaches. Hot Peaches. It's Chef's Kiss. Mwah. She was working with the company and they travel a ton. So she got to travel between America and Europe and back and forth all the time. In 1975, she posed for Andy Warhol in a Polaroid,

which is iconic. And the Polaroid was later used in a collection called Ladies and Gentlemen, which is so cool. It's so crazy to me, but it's true that Marsho, she wasn't famous when she was alive at all. Which is, I'm like, you post for Andy Warhol, you're in this theater group, you're doing all these fucking awesome things,

but she was by no means famous. I think that happens a lot. It does. They're doing all this awesome stuff, but they're just one of those people about town. You know, I mean, like, just- And that's exactly who she was. I do these cool things,

but they're just not recognized for it. Right. So one of her friends actually went with her to check out Andy's soup screen of her at a store on Christopher Street, and they were thrown out of the store. They didn't recognize that she was the lady in the picture. She was like, oh, hi. So that just speaks to the fact that it's like,

she was so fucking cool and she should have been famous, but they were like, yeah, get the fuck out of here. Get out of here. Because she was transgender. And that wasn't the first time that she was kicked to the side. So in 1973, just like Sylvia was kind of boot off the stage, those organizing the Pride parade didn't want Marsha

or any other drag queens leading the parade with them because they didn't want to be aligned with the drag queens. So they were like, go to the back or like, don't be here at all. Like, we don't want you here. Wow. So because of everything that she went through in her life, she had a super hard time with mental health. She spent a lot of time trying to get that under control.

She spent time in psychiatric hospitals, and she said that she had been arrested so many times that she stopped counting when she hit the hundredth time. Oh my god. Which I was like, whoa. That's a lot. Um, in the 80s, that she stopped counting when she hit the hundredth time. Oh my God. Which I was like, whoa. That's a lot. In the 80s, Marsha helped a ton of people

that were suffering from the AIDS virus and she tried to advocate for them. And in 1992, she confirmed that she too was suffering from the AIDS disease. Oh wow. But AIDS is not what Marsha died from. So, no, it is not. On July 6th, 1994, Marsha's body was found floating

in the Hudson River right off the West Village Pierce. That's so sad. She was 46 years old. And the police were really quick to say that she had completed suicide, but anybody that knew her was like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. I don't think that's what happened.

And they were like, we want answers. Like, please investigate this. Yeah. But obviously, even still in the 90s, like for transgender people, it was not. Even now. I was gonna say, it's 2020. And we're still not doing the same thing.

Like, it just wasn't investigated. Like, it should have been. So, those who believe that Marsha's death was a result of suicide said that she had been giving her things away in the weeks before her death. But like I mentioned before, that's just who she was. I was going to say that. It's not something she was like trying to get rid of all our stuff. She was just like, oh, here you like it, take it.

So that's not a valid argument. And it's like the Bryce Soss piece of thing. Exactly. We mentioned him a lot recently. So I feel like this is kind of one of those things where we've talked about this on the show before. I think because Marsha was transgender, she was considered less dead. And that's why nothing was done about this. Yeah, it's like when, you know, serial killers will target sex workers or, you know, drug addicts or something they're seen by law enforcement as less dead. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. So, the main issue in Martha's case is that there's so many conflicting stories of the last time that she was seen. So Randy Wicker was Marsha's roommate, and the last time that he saw her was on July 2nd. But then there's reports of from people that they say they saw her on July 4th. And in fact, there's evidence that Marsha was seen super super late on the night of July 5th, and that two men were following her. Oh, so she seemed according to this, like, eyewitness account, she seemed scared. She was heading toward the West Village Pierce, where she ended up, like, basically found dead there. And that's basically exactly where she turned up.

And Randy says on the Netflix documentary, The Death in Life of Marsha P. Johnson, which is a really good documentary, go watch it. Yeah. He blames himself for Marsha's death. So let's get into that and why he thinks he has something to do with it. Now, do you know what her cause of death was? I'll tell you. Okay. So I'll tell you in a minute, but let's focus on Randy for a second. So Randy was trying to gain control of the Christopher Street Festival committee. So, I'll tell you in a minute. Let's focus on Randy for a second. Let's focus on Randy. Randy was trying to gain control of the Christopher Street Festival Committee.

This particular committee ran a portion of events at the gay pride, like all the gay pride events. Okay. Randy basically launched his own investigation out of his own pocket, which cost him $5,000, and he hired a PI to look into this whole thing. Damn, Randy. Because he was among a lot of people that thought the people running, the festival were embezzling a lot of the money that they were making.

Oh. And he was like, this is being run completely crooked. I'm not interested. Like, I'm, or I am interested in taking this over. Like, yeah, I'm not going to let this happen. So he later learned that there had been a threat against him to leave Jacques Guerin and a man named Red alone. It seemed like the mafia was profiting from the event as well. So again, another tie to the mob here, because they had some heavy ties and the mob didn't want this getting looked into. So Randy found out from Victoria Cruz, who is another transgender activist, and she's the one in the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson. She launched her own investigation into Marsha's death, and she found out that there was a message meant for Randy that he never got, and it basically

said, tell Randy what happened to Marsha will happen to him if he doesn't leave Red and Jocolone. Oh shit. So it's like, okay. Well, there's that. Obviously, something was going on there and it included the mafia. Yeah. And it's like, that's exactly what,

I mean, that's like cut and dried me. Yeah, to me, that's like, okay, investigate. So because there wasn't much of an investigation here, obviously there's still all this mystery surrounding Martha's death So you would ask what the cause of death was yeah the cause of death was changed from drowning to undetermined causes So at first they said it was drowning and then they were like actually it's a determined and then it was Drowning is a pretty a pretty clear thing to see very clear The running is a pretty clear thing to see. Very clear, obviously.

And they said that she was like hands down alive when she entered the water. So it's like, but was she chased into the water? And then she drowned. Was she unconscious like exactly? So in 2012, the case was reopened, and it's opened like currently. Oh good.

So. I'm glad it's opened. Exactly. So you see in the documentary that I mentioned, Victoria Cruz trying to get Marsh's autopsy report. Now when she's finally able to get the report, she's told, or before she's able to get the report, she's told that it's lost, it's not the complete version, there's missing papers, like, and basically the people, the woman, especially that she's talking to on the phone, is like, yeah, I just like kind of don't give a shit. She doesn't say that, but everything that

she's saying is pointing to the fact that she doesn't care. And she just doesn't want to talk about it. So she is finally able to get it, but it's not the complete version. And when she does get it, she sits down with your bro, Dr. Michael Baton. Yes. And she wants to go over what she wants to go over what everything means because there's a lot of language on autopsy reports that you're like, what does that mean? Yeah, you need a pathologist to help you. So I think it's Dr. Baden actually.

Is it? I realize I've been saying it wrong. Yeah. Well, Dr. Michael Baden. Yeah. So they reference in the report that there's a lot of discoloration, and I've literally just wrote in my notes, I can imagine that would have something to do with being in the

water, but let's escalate. So, would discoloration lead to, or would that, her being in the water lead to the discoloration? The discoloration, to me, points more towards, like, it possibly, I mean, possibly, like, liver mortis, which is like the pooling of blood in certain places in your body. Would it be because she was like laying down in the water? Because she's laying in a certain position dead for a certain amount of time.

Okay. And gravity will take it wherever the lowest point is. Would water speed that up? No, it can definitely cause a bunch of stuff to happen to a body. Right. I mean, water does some gnarly shit to a body. And that's, I feel like that's probably why it made it.

So hard in this case to determine like exactly what happened. Yeah, depending on how long she was in there and any number of things could have happened. Okay, so they noticed that there are hemorrhages in a lot of different areas of the brain. Okay. So, Dr. Michael Bodden explains to Victoria that a violent assault was, like, can be ruled out. Like, he doesn't think there was any assault here because there's no impact or injury to Martian's body revealed in the autopsy. Okay. But that leads me to wonder, like, was it an autopsy actually, like, done the correct way? Yeah. Because there's really no explanation for all these hemorrhages. The hemorrhages, the only thing I could have,

I'm trying to think of it, the only thing I could think of is like some kind of concussion to kind of thing. But then it's like there's no like blunt force trauma or anything like that. Is it like she was, yeah, that's weird. And there's no answers because this just wasn't investigated. So hopefully it comes out, like why that would happen. It's like no evidence of strangulation or spixia.

No, not to explain all that, it's that's weird. The cause of death is like basically she drowned. So it's like, the basically Dr. Michael Bodden says the question is, did she drown because she was being chased into the water or did she just want to complete suicide and she jumped into the water? Yeah. She's like there's two, he's like there's very like conflicting Yeah.

possibilities here, but the fact that there's eye witness testimony of these two men following her into the wall or to the pier and she looked scared. It's like what was going on. So there was a witness who saw the body and said that there was a hole in Marcia's head. Oh. So, the body explains that this likely happened while the body was in the water because of floating debris and faster deterioration because the water was its warmer water. Okay, I mean, yeah, warmer water, and if you're in the water for a long time, your skin's going to get slippage and it's gonna get...

It's almost like how we talked about the soap, the woman that became soap. Yeah, and it's like your skin will just become paper thin. Right. Anything is gonna be able to penetrate it at that point. But a hole in her head. A hole in her head. But that was...

That's enough to do anything to your bones. I mean, was it like a giant like... It was just like what somebody saw. But then in the autopsy, it's not really noted. So it's like, was that just kind of a rumor? Did he see that? And the kid is on camera. And he's like, no, there's a fucking hole in her head.

But on the autopsy, and again, remember, this is not the complete autopsy. So where the fuck is the complete autopsy? Yeah, I want to know. That's the problem. So people in Marcia's life say that she was worried that the mob was after her and she was becoming increasingly scared and increasingly nervous in her last few weeks alive. According to a witness, they did see Marsha get into a car with three and they described them three Italian men will say yes. So basically nobody, like that's the last eyewitness report of Marsha and then she ends up in the water.

But it's like she got in the car and somebody says that but then they say she was out of a car and she was being followed by two men. So it's like what is it? Which one happened? But it was never fucking investigated. That's the thing, like why is no one talking to anybody and trying to place together, you know,

peace together this shit? That's the thing and basically it's just no one talking to anybody and trying to place together, you know, peace together this shit? That's the thing. And basically, it's just all these documentaries and stuff about Marsha. It's just trying to spread awareness of like the few facts that we do have so that we can hopefully get to lead something to lead to answers here because there's so much question around her whole death.

Huh. So I feel like though, it's like, any time you're involved in the mob with the mob, it's like, you got a question. I'm a weird death. So I feel like though it's like she any time you're involved in the mob with the mob it's like you got a question a weird death. Yeah 100 percent but nobody wanted to. And it's because she was transgendered. So I think in this case that two things are for sure. I think Martha's death is real real suspicious and I totally think she was murdered. Yeah something weird happened. Because it's like there wouldn't be all these questions if she had just...

If it was just cut and dry. And there were people close to her and they would have known if she was suicidal in one attendor life. It's like... Yeah, I mean, I... This times when no one knows... That is true.

I do want to make sure, like, we look it at that way, that like, sometimes people will be like, I had no idea. Right. And they... Sometimes people hide it. But it's like all the little inklings of like the mob. And then when you're involved with the mob

and then like these weird eyewitness testimonies of like she was being followed or she got into a car with like suspicious people. And these weird messages that were being like threatening. Right. Like what happened in Marcha will happen to you if you keep asking questions basically. Yeah, basically.

Boom, that's saying it right there. So that's the one thing that's for sure is that her death is suspicious. Yeah. But the other thing is that she will forever be known as one of the most influential, most amazingly dedicated woman in LGBTQ plus history. She was a pioneer.

She was a mother fucking pioneer. So many people will go on to remember Marcia and there's actually supposed to be monuments honoring both Marha and Sylvia and Greenwich Village right near Christopher Street. I love that. And Governor Cuomo, who I know a lot of people are like in love with. I know. A lot of people really like this Cuomo back. Yeah, they announced recently that the East River Park is going to be renamed in honor of Marsha P. Johnson. That's awesome.

So I thought that was super love that. And then there's two documentaries that I watched that I think that you should watch. And actually these documentaries are like kind of feuding with each other, the creators, because like the fire festival docs. Yeah, right. So the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson was done after Happy Birthday Marsha. Okay. And the girl that did Happy Birthday Marsha is a transgender woman, and she says that the guy who did the death in life of Marsha P. Johnson got all his shit from her, and she's like

pissed off about it, so they're feuding right now about that. But I thought they were both really fucking cool things. So take your side. So pick your side. But I thought they were great. I'm right in the middle. There you go. I'll watch both. I'll watch both. So that is the life and very

suspicious, confusing death of Marsha P. Johnson. Wow. That was, that was crazy. I just feel like her like story is important to tell. The death part is just like so confusing and there's just no answers. No, that's, that's like fascinating. It is fascinating. Something's going on. I love that Dr. Michael Bondden is involved. I know you'd be stoked about that. We love him. We love him. I also love that I know how to say his name now. Yeah, I think, because I've been saying it wrong forever, apparently, Baden, because I think

one of our listeners actually was like, really? It's pronounced like Bodden, and they were like, kind of like, body, like, Bodden. Bodden Bodden makes sense. Bodden Bodden makes sense. That makes sense. Well, there's also a ton of cool pictures that I can post for those episodes, which I'm stoked about, especially of Sylvia and Marsha. They were bad bitches.

They were bad bitches. Bad bitches, a lot. So follow us on Instagram, at morbidpodcast. Hit us up on Twitter, a morbidpodcast. Send us a jamehale. morbidpodcast.gmail.com. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird but not so weird

that you're aduishing that you don't think trends under people are involved in the LGBTQ plus community because they totally are and everybody's involved and we love you so much by they're people. Everyone's people. Love you. Bye. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Wondery.com slash survey.