Morbid - Episode 164: The Twilight Murders

Episode Date: August 15, 2020

You’re gonna want to securely hold onto your butt for this one. Alainas breaking down the twilight murders, yes you read that right. Kim Edwards and Lucas Markham planned out the murder of Kim’s own Mother and sister and carried out the plan on the evening of April 13, 2016. The details of this case are brutal, gut wrenching and plain awful. Again, hold onto those bootys.  Sources: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11320586/kids-who-kill-twilight-kim-edwards-lucas-markham/ https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/twilight-teen-killers-recall-double-murder-new-documentary-article-1.3281015 https://members.huntakiller.com/blog-articles/the-twilight-killers As always thanks to our sponsors Purple: Go to Purple.com/morbid10, and use promo code morbid10 For a limited time you’ll get 10% off any order of $200 or more! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. This episode is sponsored by the Audible Original Series, Exposed, the Ashley Madison hack. In the early 2000s, millions of people joined AshleyMadison.com, a dating site for married people to have affairs. But the promise of discretion was shattered in the summer of 2015 when anonymous hackers published millions of cheating spouses information into a searchable database.

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Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. it's a whole ass morbid you know why it's elena's morbid it's elena centric and we know i can't do a mini you can't even do a regular main episode anymore without it being like 42 hours long. I know. She's insane. Ever since I upped my research game, you're like, same. I'm like, I'll do it too. But where will I go from here? I'm double downing.

That's what I'm doing. You are. Or doubling down, either way. I was like, that sounds not right. I'm here for it. Either way, I'm here for it. Yeah, words. They're hard.

Well, this one, I originally, I, like, got the bare bones of it together and, like, the outline. It was, like, five pages. Which is, like, normally what my full case is. Well, and I was like, five pages. This is going to be, like, nothing. Like, I was actually like, oh, shit. Maybe I shouldn't even do this game.

I hit five pages and I'm like, we got an hour. There it is. You're like, oh, good. No, I was, like, really upset about it. I it is. No, I was like really upset about it. I was like, come on, there's got to be more. And then I found the court documents. We love a good court document. Here we are.

And I got so much more information. I was so excited. And now it's ten and a half pages. So everybody settle in because it's going to be a long one. Wait, I need to ask how many pages was the scream murder for you do you remember uh that was like 11 and a half I think okay so so we should prepare for like an hour and 45 minutes I would say it I mean it kind of depends on like discussions I think too that like how often I interrupt you how often you interrupt me, exactly. So I think we don't really have any business to get to, but what we're going to be covering today is the case of Kim Edwards and Lucas Markham, aka the Twilight Killers.

So Alayna told me that it's called the Twilight Killers, but she won't tell me why. It's true. Because she wants a real reaction. I do. I was like, I can't tell you beforehand because it's weird that they're called the Twilight Killers because it seems like a very small part of the case. Right. And it's small, but it's shocking. I think it's the part of the case that you're like, what? I just, for me, I'm just like, do they think that they're vampires? It's like a Jeremy Stanky where you thought he was a werewolf. No, that would make it easy.

But, you know, it's funny because when I was reading, so they are both 14-year-olds and they are in a relationship together, or they were. You know, a 14-year-old relationship. Yeah. But it was a real intense one. And it reminds me of the Jasmine Richardson-Jeremy Stanky relationship in the way that they were like, it's us against the world. Right. They were weirdly obsessed with each other.

They became way too connected. And then they started looking at people who were trying to keep them apart. And they were like, you gotta go. All right. Well, let's dive in. Now, this one also, besides the Jeremy Stanky and Jasmine Richardson case, this one really reminded me of the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady case. Which I don't know that much about. I know too much about that case. What else is new? Because before I had kids, I mean, I do it now, but much more before, I obsessively read cases.

but much more before. I obsessively read cases. Like, I know every case known to man at least a little bit. And so, and I remember the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady case fascinated me. I mean, I could not stop reading about it because it was just so unbelievable. And now, I always said, I was like, I have trouble looking at it now because it has to do with kids. And it just changes. But a lot of people have asked to do it. It's a huge case. It is fascinating. It deserves to be told. So I'm going to take one for the team, guys, because after reading this case, and it was

compared to that one, and I'm going to mention it in here, I've decided that I'm going to cover the Ian Brady and Myra Hindley case next week. Whoa. And it's a big one. Next week is going to be a big week. We're going to have the completion, you know, that's a gross word, of my case and then, or Moira Hindley, Myra Hindley case. Moira. I was thinking about Moira Rose. You were. Because I just used that gif recently. But yeah, so yeah, we'll have part three of the Brenda Schaefer case from Ash, and then we'll start the Myra Hindley and Eden Brady, which I'm fairly positive is going to be more than one part. Yeah, I would think so.

We'll try. But I think hopefully you guys will be psyched about that because a lot of people have asked for it and I've been like avoiding it a little. Well, we haven't done a heavy hitter in a while. We do. And that one's a big one. So I feel like it's important to do. So we'll be doing that. You might you're definitely going to hear about it very briefly not like really any details in this case but it gets mentioned a lot mainly because this one's part is a UK case as well.

So this is not an American case. So hello international listeners hello we're here for you uh so kim edwards and lucas markham uh they this crime occurred in spalding lincolnshire new england okay nope not in new england i was gonna say new england very used to saying new england because i live there or actual england old england the original, the OG England. Oh, we're off to a good start, guys. Good, good, good. So, Spalding, Lincolnshire. Not sure if it's Lincolnshire or Lincolnshire, but you guys will tell me, and you'll do it nicely.

I was going to say, yeah, okay. I'm sure. So, the victim in this case is 49-year-old Elizabeth Edwards. She was a single mother of two daughters, 14-year edwards and 13 year old katie edwards big spoiler alert already yeah so yeah exactly it's like just throwing it in there the murderer her daughter kim is her child so on april 14th, 2016, Elizabeth was absent from work. Okay. And she wasn't just absent. She hadn't called in.

She worked as a lunch lady. She was a no-call, no-show. Yeah, and she worked as a lunch lady. They call it a dinner lady in all the things I read about this and heard about this. It's very English of them, and I like it. Is it like dinner's lunch and then supper is our dinner? Probably.. I don't know. Honestly it's us who says everything weird so like. Yeah we're uncultured swines in America. You guys have it right. We just we just like mess it all up. Yeah. So yeah so that she was a dinner lady at the local primary school. She loved working

there. She was always on time. She was early. She never would not show up and not call. Right. So immediately, all of a sudden, ding, ding, ding, the radars are going up. Now, Kim and Katie were also absent from school that day. Which is weird. And nobody had called to say that they were going to be absent. So people were like, huh, why are all three of them not here? Yeah, that's cause for concern.

Now, Elizabeth, the mother, did have a partner, Graham Green, and he was trying to get in touch with her and he couldn't get in touch with her. And he said he was very concerned by this because she always answered the phone. I believe he was like a truck driver or a lorry driver. And so he was gone a lot. But when he was gone, he said they talked constantly. They were in constant communication. So he was gone he said they talked constantly they were in constant communication so he was like this was very concerning to me yeah now katie and elizabeth the mother katie was the 13 year old they were very close they just had one of those mother daughter relationships where like katie adored her mother she would like hang outside of the school waiting for her to come out from work and like they always hung out together

they were just very close they just happened to have that relationship kim was not as close with her mom okay and it just seemed like neither one of them really just didn't get each other yeah they just didn't get each other it wasn't they didn't get along i think kim seemed and we're gonna see this later not the easiest child to get along with. But it also seems like her mother may not have been the easiest mother for her to get along with. That speaks to my soul. Yeah. It's like her mother, Elizabeth, seems like a wonderful person. She seems like, you know, but there was definitely some troubles that happened.

My therapist always says, she says, sometimes it's like not the right parent for the right kid. Like you don't always get matched up how it should have been. Oh, yeah. I remember you saying that. That makes sense. Well, unfortunately, so Kim's 14, Kim had a 14-year-old boyfriend. Okay. Named, I don't know if anybody can guess.

I don't know. Lucas Markham. Oh, shit. Okay. He was also not in school. Oh. Yeah. And was reported missing by his aunt who he lived with okay so it's getting weird why are all these people out where are they sketchy sketchy nobody can find them it's not like they're just at home like and they're like yeah we're out and they're

pjs exactly watching the price is right because they're not feeling well today or are they i don't know i don't know i don't know do you know i mean i do that because you said this is a morbid case it is so relatives came over to the edwards home at different times during the day and we're like knocking on the door just calling out for them because no one's answering the phone so now they're like what the fuck's going on like do we go there so i mean relatives i mean i think um lucas's aunt had come over a couple of times and knocked on the door because she was like maybe he's there people are freaking out they came over at 5 10 p.m 9 p.m and 9 46 p.m and nothing no one answered the door but they did

hear the dog barking inside uh-oh so they're like what is going on right but of course nobody's banging down the door yet because it's been a few hours so 36 hours later when from when they first went missing around noontime the police have now been called by various people and they come to the home they knock on the door same thing don't hear anything except a dog barking inside so they open the door right because they're like this is a wellness check now we can't come We need to go in there. We're concerned. We're concerned. So in the home, Lucas and Kim, the two 14-year-olds that are dating.

They were there. Just sitting there in the living room. They've been there the entire time people have been knocking. Are they just like watching TV? They're sitting on a mattress that they had brought into the living room. They're cuddled under a blanket together, watching television like nothing is happening around them. They're straight up chilling. They're Netflix and chilling. Just hanging out with some ice cream. There were alcohol bottles around. They're just hanging out. What? What? And the police are like, oh, hey, people have been

knocking for days. Did you hear them? Hello. And they were just like, oh, hey. Real weird that they did. I mean, obviously we know what they did, but they were just like oh hey real weird that they i mean obviously we know what they did but like at least a little bit real weird that they just stayed there oh it gets weirder okay so police were like hey where is elizabeth and katie your mom and your sister and kim says upstairs uh-huh and they asked what happened to your mother and sister are they sick why are they upstairs and lucas looked them dead in the eye and they said with zero emotion said, Why don't you go upstairs and see? Yeah.

Are you shitting me? A 14 year old. If you're listening to this podcast, then chances are good you are a fan of The Strange, Dark and Mysterious. And if that's true, then you're in luck. Because once again, Mr. Ballin' Podcast, Strange, Dark, and Mysterious Stories is available everywhere you get your podcasts. Each week on the Mr. Ballin' Podcast, you'll hear new stories about inexplicable encounters, shocking disappearances, true crime cases, and everything in between.

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of it was an elite plainclothes unit called the Gun Trace Task Force. It was supposed to be the Baltimore Police Department's best of the best, a group of highly decorated detectives who excelled at getting drugs and guns off the streets. But they operated with little oversight, creating an environment where criminal cops could flourish by falsifying evidence and robbing suspects. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge American Scandal Police Corruption in Baltimore early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. And what did they see? They went upstairs and they found a bloodbath upstairs. And they just looked at the police

and said, why don't you go upstairs and see? Why don't you go upstairs and see? What a bunch of shits. Elizabeth and Katie were both dead in their beds where they were sleeping. They were killed while they were sleeping. Blood was on the ceilings, the walls, on the victims, on their beds. Both had been slashed at the throat and both had been there for almost two days. And they're just downstairs eating ice cream watching TV. Gets better. So the murder weapon, an eight-inch butcher knife, was still

in Katie's room, just left there after they had done it and not cleaned or anything just like thrown on a table after they had murdered her uh they immediately were arrested yeah obviously and Lucas said fuck life to the cops as he was detained they're like I bet you feel that way now that we're detaining you they were like fuck your life bro because you're gonna go away for a long time. Fuck you, right? And as they were leading Kim outside, Graham, the partner, shows up. Oh, no. Poor Graham. And they're leading her outside. He said he looked her dead in the eye and was like, what the fuck is going on?

Like, he just looked at her because he was, like, in shock. Like, what's happening? What's happening? She immediately put her head down and wouldn't look him in the eye. And he said he was just devastated. Oh, no. He said he was the one said he was just devastated. Oh, no. He said he was the one who had to identify Elizabeth. Oh, God.

And he said, quote, it's something I would never wish on my worst enemy to identify someone you love. I can't even imagine. Yeah. So, obviously, again, they were arrested immediately. And it was determined that they had never left the home after the murders 36 hours prior. that they had never left the home after the murders 36 hours prior they had been in there the entire time uh with kim's dead mother and dead little sister just right upstairs right the bathroom was upstairs so they had to go upstairs where the dead bodies were to use the bathroom that's i don't even like going to my own bathroom which is like it off of everything in my house

when i'm home alone yeah like it freaks me out like what they were literally walking up there with her mother and her sister lying dead for two days just going to pee and stuff what now this is the this is very bizarre well we're gonna find out in a little bit exactly what they did during those 36 hours and who boy i don't know if you but before we do that let's talk about elizabeth edwards okay elizabeth edwards was a single mother like i said raising kim and katie alone she was well liked she sang in the church choir she did she was known to help out with the church she did a lot of charity work oh uh she was described as bubbly and always happy always

smiling so a great person some of the documentaries i saw this, I think there's like, there's one that's like Britain's Killer Kids or something like that. Yeah. There's home video that Graham has on his phone or his iPad of her. Oh, stop. And she's like dancing in like different outfits in the kitchen and stuff. And she just seemed like a bubbly, happy mom. Right.

People said she did a lot of after school programs with children because she loved children yeah i mean she works at an elementary school yeah and she has two children she focused around children a lot uh like i said she worked at the lunch lady and she worked at saint paul's community primary school katie the 13 year old daughter uh the second victim was super popular super outgoing people. People loved her. She was the exact opposite of Kim. Okay. Kim is not that.

Okay. So she was, I think they talked to Kim and Lucas's friend or former friend, Adam, who plays another part in this. Oh. He doesn't do anything, but he's part of it. So he was giving an interview and he's part of it uh so he was giving an interview and he was like yeah like katie was really popular like people really liked katie when they found out that she was dead it was like devastation like it hit everyone hard so graham

the um elizabeth's partner said that he and elizabeth were planning to get married like that was the new thing they were planning to do it he had bought the family a Like that was the new thing. They were planning to do it. He had bought the family a dog. That was the dog that you heard. So this is, oh. It's really sad. And he and Katie would take walks with it. He said he like really loved the kids. Yeah.

But he did say Kim was tough. Yeah. Like Kim was tough to get, like to crack. Right. She wasn't, she was, she had an attitude a lot of the time. And he said that he was like you know what elizabeth and kim didn't have like the super close relationship but kim but he didn't see anything that would make it seem like she one was being favored over the other or anything like

that it was just they had different relationships and he was like and honestly when you have different kids it's like yeah and he was like it had more to do with how katie and kim interacted with their mother than anything right just kat do with how katie and kim interacted with their mother than anything right just katie interacted with her happily and didn't so it's just the way it is now he also said lucas and kim have destroyed my life um and the family lived in a kind of tough part of town at the time uh there was a lot of gangs and drug abuse and violence happening, so it wasn't like a great area. So Kim Rose Edwards is what she was born. Okay. She was born June 13th, 2001, which really hammers in how fucking young they are. Yeah, 2001. She was born in 2001. Wow. Yeah. She was very troubled, not attached to her mother from a very young age oh really her

father left her family when she was a baby her mother raised her and her younger sister katie alone like we said uh there was a time now this is the point where i'm like huh this is an odd little blip in their history there was a time when social services was called uh-huh because there was a fight in the home and elizabeth the mother slapped kim in the face okay there's also reports that she punched kim in the face i've seen both so that's the here's the thing that's very different here's the thing though kim was six oh okay so literally not a teenager yeah like not that it's okay to punch a teenager in the face, but slapping? I think...

I wouldn't... I'm sure many... I would... Like you said, yeah. Go ahead. I don't... I don't... I don't...

I would not slap my child. I don't... I don't have any need for it, but... I definitely was slapped, like, when I was being a bitchy teenager. I could see slapping a teenager in the face. A hundred percent. Like, that I could understand. Like, that I understand totally.

Right. And I think other people have probably, that's happened to them. There's not one thing on this planet Earth that a six-year-old does that they deserve to be slapped in the face. No, not at all. So that's, that's strange. Now, from what I saw in all, in every outlet I got this information from, Elizabeth called social services on herself.

Oh. Yes. Okay. And said this happened. Okay. And said this happened. Okay. Which I'm like. That's weird. Wowzers.

Maybe she just like. Maybe she just immediately was like, I need to get my shit together. Yeah. So like you need to do something. I don't. That's very strange. Well, Kim and Katie were taken away for a small time. That's sad.

While they were like investigating this and doing the reporting and stuff. It was six months that they were taken away. That's a pretty long time. Yeah. And they were, like, investigating this and doing the reporting and stuff. It was six months that they were taken away. That's a pretty long time. Yeah. And they were returned afterwards. But in that time, they spent, you know, time in foster care. Yeah. For six months.

So, I mean, they returned after the six months. Graham said that this was pretty much the point when, like, Kim and Elizabeth's relationship just shattered that makes sense which makes sense right but then you're wondering like what happened before this because she slapped her in the face so it's like they were i know i want to know why they were obviously not a close mother daughter to begin with so but i can't find anything about that uh when it's like you have to wonder obviously kim is like a sociopath so and like i'm not like we said it's not okay to hit a six-year-old but i wonder what happened to like that's the thing not to make her get slapped but do you know what i'm saying but like what led to that kind of like reaction of just normal behavior from a mother and i feel like the fact that she

called on herself is even more telling because yeah it's almost like she broke for a second and then was like oh fuck what did i do exactly that's what it seems to me and i couldn't find any information about like before this so yeah we're all just i mean we're just here to speculate about it but either way that's obviously a very worrisome thing yeah like that's not good right doesn't equal you should murder your mother when you're 14 but you know or or ever that's just something no or ever but uh so yeah so this is that was definitely a tipping point i would say probably within their relationship but after the whole social services thing um elizabeth had moved to them into a new home on dawson avenue um and it was like a housing unit like you know kind of

like um almost like duplexes. Okay. Kind of thing, like big apartment buildings or condos. Sure. Kind of things. Kim definitely still did not have a good relationship with her mom. They were fighting a lot. She was very jealous of her sister, Katie. I was, I had a feeling. Very jealous. They fought all the time. And Katie and her didn't fight all the time.

She took it out on her mom that they were close and she wasn't. So she didn't take it out too much on Katie from what I could see. And Katie was her younger sister only by a year. I was getting very close in age. Like Irish twins. Right. You know. So and at the time, though, and this is from Kim.

Nobody else says this. Kim says that her mother would often tell her, you're just like your father, who had abandoned them when she was young. And who had, like, abused drugs and was violent. Like, it was bad. And so, and Kim and Katie, for that matter, but mostly Kim, had seen violence when she was younger between her father. Yeah.

Her father did abuse her mother. Well, and I'm sure she harbored a lot of resentment between her father. Yeah. Her father did abuse her mother. Well, and I'm sure she harbored a lot of resentment toward her father, and to be told that you're like the parent that you resent sucks. Yeah, that's got to be hugely triggering. Yeah. But that's also from Kim, who is a lying sociopath. And we'll see she's very unemotional and very disconnected from reality. And is most likely trying to justify her actions.

Yeah. And, you know, to justify her actions. Yeah. And, you know, Kim said she felt like, you know, the black sheep. She said Katie got all the attention. And she said, in one of the interviews later, Kim does say, you know, we just didn't get along, me and my mom, from when I was younger. And she says, you know, she clearly loved my sister more, favored my sister more. And they're like, okay, did she tell you that?

Right. And she was like, no, she never came out and said it, but I just knew it. Okay. So it's like, you know, it seems like a sibling rivalry thing. Yeah. She's just being like, yeah, of course she didn't say it,

but like, I just know it. Well, you do know who the parent's favorite is. So, of course, the partner, Graham, says there was never any favoritism between them. Again, he just says they had different relationships. Okay. And Kim just didn't like hers with her mother. She just wasn't happy with it and she didn't know how to change it. So Lucas Markham, the boyfriend, was actually born Stan Lucas Markham. He was born August 1st, 2001. This is really triggering. And

was born in Peterborough. Peterborough. Peterborough. That's it. Peterborough. I did it. High fives to all my UK listeners. High fives. All right. I did it. Watch, I probably got it wrong and they're gonna be like, honey, good try. Put your hand down. Peterborough. So he grew up also in an abusive home. Well, you said he had lived with his aunt, so I wondered what the story was. Yeah. So when he was four years old, his mother died of leukemia. Oh, that's horrific. So that's huge. I mean, and four, my kids are four.

That's a big blow. Yeah. Like, you know your mom at that point. You know your mom, you've bonded a lot. Very connected at that point. His father was abusive and alcoholic. He wasn't a good guy. Oh, no.

So he immediately was in and out of foster care. Like his dad just didn't want to take care of it. His aunt finally took him in for good, became his guardian. Yeah. So he had a lot of troubled stuff. And we're going to talk a little bit more about him and his way of like, we're going to talk about how Kim and him were as teenagers soon. But we want to know how these two met. How did they come together? Like a history class. Yeah, almost. One day in eighth grade. Yes. Lucas threw a chair across the room in English class in a fit of rage. Oh. And Kim was in that class and she was like, oh, that's my man. Oh. Normally I was like, let's not sit near that guy at lunch. No, she was like,

fuck me up. That's him. That's my guy. Wow. Okay. Now different strokes for different folks. He was a known asshole. He was known to be very aggressive, just very unpredictable. Some people are really into that. She was into it. Okay. He's ain't he was angry he was detached and the only thing that made him like attached to anything was kim okay kim showed that she was interested and he was like whoa you're mine too so they immediately it's like all her create her issues that she's bringing to the table and all his issues that he's bringing to the table they just met each other and were like whoosh and just formed this. They found what they thought they were missing in each other.

Exactly. This fucked up bond that they are just going to become way too attached to each other. It's never good to only have your partner. And it becomes a Bonnie and Clyde, us against the world, you know, ending in a blaze of glory kind of thing. Yeah, it's just, it's never good. And they think they get each other because of their, like, traumatized. And, like, nobody else does. Yeah, no one gets us.

Now, according to court documents, they were also obsessed with talking about suicide. Okay. And it mentions that they did this often with one other girl, but she isn't named in the court documents. Interesting. They had a super, obviously, toxic and very codependent relationship with each other right off the bat. Again, they're only 14. Right.

So already having two attached of a relationship is not a good thing at that age because you're like, okay, calm down. Yeah. But having the kind of toxic, codependent, just like us against the world kind of relationship at 14 just is no good. No. And obviously no one was happy with that around them. They were often later compared to Myra Hensley and Ian Brady. Okay.

Because apart, sure, they were, you know, they had some fucked up shit going on. They both came from kind of like crazy upbringings but it was together that they became lethal okay like myra hensley and ian brady it's just like apart they were fucked up and sure they probably weren't people you wanted to like be in a dark alley with but when they found each other as one it was like the explosion or the spark everyone i saw said that apart if they had never got together they don't think this would have happened they don't think that the mother would have been murdered they do not think that the sister would have been murdered this could have been avoided if they weren't together okay

so that's not good no now lucas was he had a tough go i mean right off the bat and then all the way through that's sad he was bullied was bullied constantly. Oh, I don't, that's never okay. Yeah. And then she started getting bullied because she was dating him. Okay. So it further cemented their us against the world. No one gets us there. I just don't understand bullying.

No. I don't get it. I'll never get it. I really won't. But friends said they, that they were creeped out with how attached and close they were. Like they were like. Well, when you're 14 too too, you're like, what? Like, calm down.

Want to come over for a sleepover and, like, not hang out with your boyfriend? Yeah, like, please? And Lucas was always at the Edwards house. But it wasn't like he was this welcome presence at the Edwards house. Right. Graham said he immediately didn't like Lucas as soon as he met him. Well, you get a vibe. He said he had a super attitude. like way too like full of himself.

He was quiet and arrogant and like just shitty to everybody. I'd be like, get out of my house, you 14-year-old fuckface. Well, and Graham also said he wore the same clothes all the time and never washed. That's disgusting. So he was like, yeah, you're gross. Please leave. Now, according to court documents, he was also violent you're gross please leave now according to court documents he was also violent and aggressive like all the time like the i don't know if you could tell by him throwing a

chair across the english class it's a good indicator he would punch and headbutt walls and doors at home like he's sad like headbutting yeah he had a lot of like outbursts that sounds like something that hasn't been diagnosed do you know what i mean but they did do a psychological um you know assessment of him later and he's fine yeah wow um there were also a ton of physical fights between him and his younger brother and his poor aunt was like trying to get help for him and he was like she was like i have no idea what to do um she would call the police and be like help me she just didn't know what to do that poor woman he would also self-harm a lot kim also was known to self-harm it seems to me like there's just so

much going on yeah i think there was a lot that was that was happening when they were born and then i think nurture took over from there. Yeah, this is very sad. This is a nature and nurture case for sure. So Lucas also definitely had an abandonment issue. Like that was clear that he, because his mother had died when he was four, his father had abandoned him and he was shoved into foster care.

In foster care, you get attached, then you have to go and then you get attached and you have to go. Exactly. So he already has this crazy control issue. Yeah. and he was known to become most violent and physically and verbally aggressive if that was like threatened when he loses any self sense of control or when he was criticized at all and especially if he was criticized by an adult or someone in authority that is that stems from all of that yeah it's a total abandonment issue. Right. Now, by summer 2015, Lucas was getting in a ton of trouble at school because, again,

he threw a chair across an English class. God only knows what else he was doing in all the other classes. He ended up being put in this, like, special pod for, like, troubled teens. Oh, shit. And it was like they would all just be in this one class. Elizabeth was not into Lucas either. She did not like him dating her daughter. She was very worried.

Well, she's like, Kim already has an attitude problem. Like, this is the last thing she needs, I bet. Yeah. And she was like, he's a really bad influence on her. And then she could see how close they were and how obsessive they were. And they were already in a sexual relationship. And she found that out. And she was freaking out. Yeah. She's 14 years old of course any parents gonna be like ah yeah help so

elizabeth finally in 2015 banned him from coming over he could not come to the house uh-oh now kim and lucas in response to this ran away together and they lived in a tent in the woods for six days wow i mean impressive no one knew where they were like they just they took clothes and food and all that stuff and they just took off lived in this tent in the woods for six days and apparently they were finally found after the six days by people recognized them when they went into town okay like hey you have to go home and they brought them home uh apparently at school everybody found out about this and they thought it was hilarious because they were just a joke. That's really sad.

They were sent back to their homes and Elizabeth referred to them at this time as a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. So she knew. She was like, something bad is happening. Right. Because if my 14- 14 year old ran away with her fucking crazy boyfriend and they were both already showing these signs right ran away and lived in a tent in the woods for six days i'd be like oh yeah well imagine is that because what are

you supposed to do like what do you do what are your options right like she's already showed you that you can't really do anything no it's like you ban this kid from your house and they run away together so right like what option is there Like honestly at this point I'd be like well I guess I just put you in prison in my own house and you don't get to leave. Like I don't even know what you would do. But even um Jasmine Richardson's parents did that remember? Yeah. And he would like sneak in. And look what happened. Yeah. Same thing happened. That's why these cases scare the shit out of me. I was gonna say say because the helplessness that comes along with this and i just i was looking at this case and then this morning i woke up and like the girls came like bouncing down the stairs and i was like

please love me forever ah like i was like please don't bring home a lucas or jeremy no like i swear uh no offense to any lucas or jeremy listening but i swear if one of them brings home one names of that i'm gonna be be like, no, no, not OK. Sorry. Sorry. We have a strict policy in this house. And I will have a bone saw at home and I'll be like, this is what will happen to you, buddy. I'm going to be I'm going to be a scary ass mom. Oh, man. So. So, yeah. So now it's ticking time bomb. Shit's going down. Right. So after this is when Kim really amped up the self-harming.

That's sad. It's all sad. This whole thing is very sad. Do you know if she was put in therapy or anything like that? They definitely tried. She was assessed by different psychologists. A lot of different psychologists said she's just an angry kid. And they were like, and this does stem from, you know, her father left when you were young.

Abandonment issues. There was an abuse in the house. You know, she was part of the abuse in the house at a time. Right. This is all just pretty par for the course. Like, she's not being, and I think they were also, I think part of the problem here was she wasn't, I don't think she was, it's hard to explain,

like, because this is no one's fault, you know what I mean? Like, it's just all a culmination of shit. Yeah. And it's obviously Kim and Lucas's fault. Yes, obviously. But I mean, like, creating this is a different thing. But I think she just wasn't, she needed, she needed a little more than she was getting. It's, again, the parent and the child are not always the right fit for each other. Exactly. And I don't think she was just not getting. And I hope nobody thinks I'm saying that in a way where it's again, the parent and the child are not always the right fit for each other. And I don't think she was just not getting. And I hope nobody thinks I'm saying that in a way where it's like it's the mom's fault or.

No. I mean, it is her fault that she killed her mom, but it's not her fault before that. Yeah. It's hard to explain. It is. It's hard to put into words. At the end of the day, Kim is to blame here. She's a fucking murderer.

So is Lucas. Right. Bada boop. But we all we like to look at how these things form, you know, especially when it has to the end of the day kim is to blame here she's a fucking murderer so is lucas right bada boop but we all we we like to look at how these things form you know like how especially when it has to do with a child and a mother you have parent and kid relationships are always interesting to me yeah you have to look at it deeper and i think what was happening was kim obviously had all those background things and she needed something that she wasn't getting psychologically i think i think

she needed some deeper some deeper look at her psyche and you know maybe she wasn't getting psychologically, I think. I think she needed some deeper look at her psyche a little bit. Maybe she didn't even know what she needed. And to be honest, with the way you hear her talk about it later, it might not have helped, to be quite honest, because she's very detached from this whole – and from emotions. Sometimes they're just born that way. Sometimes you are just a sociopath and that's the way it is, but. Put that on a shirt. Put that, sometimes you're just a sociopath and that's the way it is. TM. Small, small writing. Small font. Yeah, you know. So after this, in 2016, Kim did

confide in a teacher that she felt close to. She wrote this teacher a letter and it said i have tried to remain strong but i can't fight anymore now i feel that death is the only way oh can you imagine being the poor teacher that gets that yes well and this teacher did the right thing they referred her to a mental health service for youths at the time she was seen and she was released. They did not think anything was concerning. Okay. So in March 2016, Lucas was expelled from school. Oh, shit. And was sent to another school, which was an hour and a half away. So Kim and he could not see each other at school during the day anymore.

So that was not good. Obviously, she became depressed. He was upset. They could only see each other at night and they couldn't see each other at Kim's house. So it was becoming the world is pulling us apart. Right. What do we do? How do we fight against this?

We break up. We go our separate ways. The end. Nope. So she did attempt suicide by taking an overdose of pills. Oh, that's sad. People at the school, according to some of the people that were interviewed, kids at the school were joking're joking about this yeah because kids are fucking horrible kids are dicks i remember like things like this happen not completely like the same but i remember like things like that happened happening and kids

are just like oh like that girl's a weirdo like she tried to kill herself yeah it's like yeah that's fucked up they don't understand funny the gravity no of what it is because your frontal lobe hasn't developed in your shit especially eighth grade ninth you're children and that's when i feel like that's when a lot of people have these problems it's like eighth grade because it's it's a hard age it is yeah that's a really hard time to i mean i'm sure everybody can agree unless you're one of those like magical uniforms that were like junior high was the best for me yeah like it's a tough time it is it's there's a lot going on because it's like puberty is happening lots of like coming of age things are happening it's just too much it's a lot to deal with yeah obviously that is and everybody has a different home life it's like yeah so i feel like a lot

of that stuff happens and kids never know how to deal with it so they just like make a joke so kids are fucked uh moral of that stuff happens and kids never know how to deal with it so they just like make a joke crazy so kids are fucked uh moral of that story so once she was released from the hospital uh they again everybody's trying to break these two up they're trying to keep them apart but they are just refusing to part ways. April 3rd, she this is interesting. She posted on Facebook April 3rd and it was like this moody, angsty photo.

It's like black and white and it's her just like looking moodily at the camera with no smile. Edited on Picnic app. Yeah, and she has glasses on. It's in black and white. And her mother Elizabeth commented on the photo. I used to fucking hate when picnic app yeah and she has glasses on it's in black and white and her mother elizabeth commented on the photo now they used to fucking hate when my mom would comment on my fucking facebook things wow okay i get so mad hello i'm 430 years old so i didn't have to deal with that i'm very happy

about it it's the worst i'm like whoa uh now this is april 3rd this is days before these murders happen like a couple weeks what does she comment so she comments where's your beautiful smile oh and kim responds it disappeared and her mother says why hun and she responds i don't know and then she follows it by emojis of a panda a bear a unicorn a cookie a smiley face with glasses, another smiley face, and then an upside down smiley face. Okay. And I was like, I'm trying to decipher that. So like all her recent emojis probably, I guess? Well, and her mother says, I think it's under your bed, lol.

Oh, she's like, I'm trying to get you and I don't. Well, and then Kim responds with like this cute little picture little picture of, like, a cartoon dog sleeping in bed. Like, a little gif. And this is, like, a few days before she brutally murders her mother. And then her mom responds with, like, another cartoon in bed. Like, they had a funny little exchange. So they obviously didn't have, like... So it seems like...

I don't know. It seems like her mother was trying. And I think it just was too... It was far gone. So April 9th, she stayed at lucas's house against her her mother had told her no and she stayed there anyway uh-huh so she came home the next day and found that her mother had put all her stuff into bags and given it to her younger sister katie that's a weird punishment and had gotten rid of like put other stuff in bags as like a punishment like i'm emptying out your room okay so from the court documents directly it says doubtless um doubtless

because of their unhappiness together the two had previously run away from home they were found some miles away and then returned to their families this is talking about the 10th thing yep yep over the weekend before the killings they barricadedaded themselves in Lucas Markham's room before leaving through a window, returning to Kim Edwards' home in order to collect her contraceptives. When they returned, Lucas Markham was rugby tackled and restrained by his family, and Kim Edwards was returned to her home where she found her mother had moved her belongings from the room she shared with her younger sister Lucas Markham's room had been cleared out by his family as well okay so I think what had happened here and again I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong here like as in in the sense of parenting we're just assessing the situation right in this situation Lucas's aunt and family yeah like, we're done. We're done.

Like, I'm sure you reach a point where you're like, I don't know what to fucking do with this kid. I don't know what to do. That's like when I wouldn't clean my room and Papa would put all my stuff in trash bags and leave it in my room and be like, oh, yeah, clean it up. My parents, my dad was always like, I will give you a couple of shots to clean that room. And he always gave like, I always got a lot of shots. He gave a lot he always gave like i always got a lot of shots he gave a lot of shots but he would tell me you have i will throw all of your stuff in this room on into the backyard yeah and you will have to pick it all up he never threw my

stuff in the backyard but i came home from school one day and all my stuff was in trash bags and i was livid but you i bet but i clean oh yeah i kept it real clean and he actually did actually he did it to my older sister. My mom. He, and I remember one day, because they were horrible. They were, like, keeping their room clean. They were filthy pigs. And my dad literally took everything in her room and threw it out the back window onto

the back lot. And it was like, and he was like, well, I guess you'll keep it clean from there. Because my parents were not, like, scream or hit hitters or anything like that. They did shit like that. Then you were like, oh, shit. I feel like that's better. I think I think you learn more from it because it doesn't hurt anybody. It's just like it just pisses you off and it pisses you off.

But you still have to you got to get your stuff back out of the bags. It's a big inconvenience. That's what it is. So you won't do it again. So I think Lucas's aunt and his family were like, let's just empty out his fucking room because if they're going to hole up in there and barricade themselves in his room, like, fuck you, man. This isn't my house. This isn't your room. Right. Like, I'm going to empty it out. Now you can have an empty cell. And I think her mom was doing the same thing. She was like, you know what? There goes all your stuff. If you're not going to

listen to me and you two are just going to continue this so it's like you understand but i wonder if they talked to each other like the aunt and the mom they might have i wonder yeah they might have like made a plan yeah they might have well this was the moment that they both were like we're gonna kill elizabeth and katie now yeah why did they why did katie and also it's weird to me that they didn't like i'm happy they didn't kill the aunt but like why is it her family because the aunt was not what they felt was that elizabeth was more involved with trying to keep them apart than the aunt was and was katie just like collateral well we'll find that out but one of the other things on top of it was that um kim uses the my sister is the favorite okay okay and that's the other thing so she she wants to kill her mom for not giving her the attention she gives katie and then katie's got to go because she's the object of the attention um so in the days leading up to

the murder now they were planning it thoroughly they cannot cannot use this whole, like, we just decided to do it. No, they sat and planned this. Oh, God. They sat in a McDonald's and, you know, ate Happy Meals and talked about it. Stop ruining fast food restaurants for me. They took romantic walks and talked about it. They had it totally planned. So initially, they planned for him to take four knives out of his aunt's home.

Walk to the Edwards home, which is about three quarters of a mile away oh not far at all it was going to be in the middle of the night uh kim was going to let him through in through a window he was going to tap three times and that's how she would know cute and so and then they were and what they initially planned was that lucas was going to kill elizabeth and kim was going to kill katie okay that was their plan now they tried this two times on april 11th and april 12th but each time he would come and knock and kim had fallen asleep now wow i'm glad everybody hear this again they had planned to kill her mother and her sister. And on the nights they had this planned, she fell asleep twice. She fell asleep. Like, so it didn't mean anything.

Would you fall asleep knowing that you were about to kill your mother and your sister with butcher knives in your home with your boyfriend? No. That to me is like... Disconnected out of reality. Bitch is on a different planet. Like a different wavelength. She's not even here with us.

Like this is this is so evil. It's like. Well, she was in Kim's world. She wasn't like, you know what I mean? Well, that's one of the things that is a really like strong thread through this is that Kim is very egotistical and very entitled. Yeah. You can tell. She wants to be in a relationship with lucas she wants it how she wants it she wants to have

sex with him and no one tell her anything about it she wants to do this she wants her mother to treat her this way she wants all the attention she's not getting it and she's pissed about it right and that's that's what this is about because she's 14 so already you're pretty entitled when you're 14 and then obviously there's a lot more that goes into it with her. It's just she's so fucking relaxed on those two nights that she just dozes into dreamland. That's bananas. So finally on April 13th, they try for the third and final time. She like got a coffee that day.

Apparently. So Lucas took four knives from his aunt's house, walked that three quarters of a mile to their house. He had a long time to think about it. They've had three different tries to reconsider this. He took, he went under like in the darkest paths he could go so no one would see him. He hopped a back wall in the back garden and then he went to the window and he tapped on the window three times. Okay. Now Kim let him in through the window. Yeah. And the way Lucas described it later was she looks out the window. She sees me there. She waves. I put my thumbs up and she goes to the bathroom window. She opens the bathroom window. I pass my bag through and then I go through. And then she opens my bag. I take a knife out and pass her a knife.

She holded the knife. She holded the knife. Sure did. She holded that her a knife she holded the knife but she holded the knife sure did she holded that knife so she holded the knife but never used the knife then i went into her mom's her mom's room and stabbed her in the neck while she was asleep on her side and then smothered her face with a pillow oh god and he says this like he is telling you a grocery list he's like and then i went on the potato aisle and I got potatoes. Because you know there's a potato aisle. Obviously, a potato aisle. And then domesticity.

He's like, yeah, and then I went and they didn't have my favorite chips. So I went and got different chips. It's literally that chill. And I decided I needed some ginger ale. And he's like, so she was asleep on her side and I smothered her face with a pillow. The end. I hope at least that she didn't suffer like the two of them. Yeah, they both did.

Oh, thanks for that. You're welcome. He used an eight inch butcher knife to do it. Elizabeth was stabbed eight times, including five times in her hands as she tried to defend herself. Oh, no. One of the two blows to her neck almost completely cut through her windpipe. Oh, no. One of the two blows to her neck almost completely cut through her windpipe. Oh, God. They intentionally cut the throats to stop them from crying out, they later said.

They had planned that. That is dark. Yeah, they both said, well, the voice box is there. So we figured we would cut that off right away so they couldn't cry. That's your mother and your sister. Yeah, like they are supremely evil. We're talking about them like less than like animals. Yeah, like less than, I mean like an ant you would step on on the sidewalk. Oh my god.

And when Kim was asked about it, she said she heard gurgling and struggling. Oh. And so she went into the room to check to see if Lucas was okay. That's how she puts it. She says, quote, he was on top of her with a pillow over her head. I thought I heard her say, get off me. After about 10 minutes of Lucas putting her weight on her, she was dead. Now he says 10, she says 10 minutes. She's a fucking idiot. Because it wasn't 10 minutes. It doesn't take 10 minutes to smother someone. Right. And Lucas says it was

barely three minutes. I was gonna do it but she's like 10 full minutes i'm like do you know what time is kim maybe time is different in kim world uh everything's different in kim world yeah but she says and she says she heard these noises and went in there desperately to check on lucas not to check on not because she worried about her mother at all obviously but like for her to say like i i wanted to check on him. Fucked up. Because she's worried about her mother at all, obviously. But like, for her to say, like, I wanted to check on him. Like, what? That's insane. As he murders your mother, like, you're hearing noises and you're like, I hope he's okay. Right. So she says, and this is, this is tough. She says, just so you know. So Kim says, all I could see was her shoulder and arms. She was struggling.

She reached out her hand, so I grabbed it and kind of held it. As I realized it was her hand, I instantly pulled my hand back. Oh my God. So she meant to grab Lucas's hand, but her poor mother, as she was dying, reached out to her to hold her hand and she grabbed it unknowingly when she realized she grabbed it she pulled away in disgust so her mother is dying and being murdered brutally by this little fucking asshole and she pulls her hand away and it's like oh i thought that was lucas's what like what happened in your fucking brain? Like, what happened to your brain? There is just nothing there. That is, that is like darker than dark.

And they say later, I mean, they've come to the conclusion where they're like, they don't think she can be rehabilitated. No. Like, she's. No. She's far gone. This is not one of those things where it's like, when you. Maybe she'll learn the error of her ways.

Like, how they let Jasmine Richardson out. I don't think they should have even done that. No, they absolutely shouldn't have. That made me feel... Yeah, that part really hurt my heart. But Lucas checked her pulse and confirmed she was dead. So, next, in their minds. Oh, and then Katie.

Now, originally, like I said, she was supposed to kill Katie. Right. But she said she couldn't do it. She couldn't mentally get herself to do it. So Lucas was like, well, she was supposed to kill Katie. Right. But she said she couldn't do it. She couldn't mentally get herself to do it. So Lucas was like, well, I'll do it. Okay. He says, I went into Katie's room, which is the same as Kim's. I thought I stabbed her, but I'm not 100% sure if it was like her or the mattress.

Oh, my God. And then I smothered her face with a pillow, too. Then Kim asked him, did she struggle? And he said, no. And he said, is she dead? And he said, yes. And then he said, then she sort of said, take off your clothes because they're covered in blood. So I did. And then we ran a bath and had a bath together because we were both kind of dirty because she helped take the blood off my face and shirt. So they had a bath like basically across the hall from her dead mother and sister.

Mm-hmm. Just had a nice romantic bath together. Okay. Yeah. They actually had a blood bath. They literally had a blood bath. That's fucked. He also said he was kind of bummed because he said he was planning to wear that shirt again.

That, you know, he didn't wash, so. But he was pissed that it had blood on it. Like, that's what he was thinking of. I'm surprised he didn't and that he was planning to wear that shirt again right he was like no i'd like to wear this and just go to school in this shirt like what so one of the other grisly details of this is that um lucas said when he slashed Katie's throat, she said, I can't, and then couldn't finish saying breathe. And Kim said she heard this. Yeah. And she said she described it as, quote, a scary voice, which was, quote, all croaky.

Oh. And she just says it like it was weird and scary and croaky. As your little sister is being murdered by your boyfriend. She doesn't think of these people as like her mother and her little sister like she just thinks of them as like in the way of her and lucas so like we said they took the bath together and then kim dragged the mattress from her sister's room her own mattress um because i was gonna say the one that she just killed her sister on no but it was from the same room right right so she grabbed the mattress right next to her where her sister lay brutally butchered right next to her.

Blood everywhere. I was going to say, you don't just easily take a mattress out of a room like they were in there for a bit. She dragged it out of the room. She brought it downstairs to the living room. They had sex. Of course, I knew that was coming. Then they watched TV together while eating ice cream, snuggled under a blanket on the

mattress. For three days. Drank alcohol from the cabinet. And right after this happened, so they had sex, they got some ice cream, then they watched all four Twilights. That's why this is called the Twilight murder. This is why this is called the Twilight murder and honestly I get it because that is so shocking. Like what? You watched all four Twilights? First of all, you just murdered two people, your mother and your sister and two. You watched all four Twilights first of all you just murdered two people your mother and your

sister and two you watched all four twilights actually wait isn't there five twilights i don't know they watched four of them wow like fuck because there's the regular one then there's new moon then there's eclipse and then yeah there's five because there's breaking dawn part one and two well i guess they only watched maybe they watched one and two i'm glad that they didn't get to watch part five there you go or maybe they watched breaking dawn one and two together maybe i whatever i'm pissed either way they sat and watched the twilight movies which i'm sure they considered themselves like edward and bella you know that except that they didn't kill their parents no but they were you know what like like we just love each other no one wants us

to be together and we have to do what we have to do that's a lot yeah so twilight murders a lot to unpack there so they had planned initially to complete suicide together after this but they didn't do it obviously um they wrote a suicide note entitled fuck you world and it said fuck you world how angsty and it also said i want to be cremated and i want mine and lucas's ashes scattered at a special place we don't give a think oh you caught me i'm so i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so i just got so mad i'm sorry it says i want to be cremated and i want mine and lucas's ashes at our special place. We don't give a fuck anymore. Okay.

Can I go now? Yeah, you can go now. You think that we're going to just scatter your ashes in a special fucking place? Yeah, because you know what? Ted Bundy's ashes were scattered where he put his victims. What? You didn't know that? No.

I thought I said that in the episode. I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I did. I mean, it was a long time ago and we all know how my memory works as his final fuck you to his victims where he used to put all like his little garden of like skulls that he would come up there and like who did that and shit they have to the law i'd lie i'd break the law for that somebody he was scattered up there she's a mostly law-abiding citizen but she'd break the law for that she says about herself well and don't worry because they weren't actually planning on killing

themselves obviously not they did that as uh you know i think that was like theatrics their contingency plan basically yeah yeah so like i said when police showed up they're sitting together under a blanket on that mattress eating ice ice cream, super nonchalant. And they said, why don't you go upstairs and see? That's the scariest part to me of this whole thing. Oh, yeah. It's terrifying. So let's hammer in what they had done and what they were sitting with in the house for 36 hours.

So the pathologist. The pathologist said that Elizabeth, again, was stabbed eight times, five in the hands when she tried to fight him off. There was one located to her right shoulder, two to her neck. The stab wounds to the neck had resulted in severing her internal jugular veins. One had almost completely severed her windpipe, and the cause of death was stab wounds to the neck, and the injuries were not instantly fatal. Oh, no. There was evidence that she survived for at least a short time as they were being inflicted and a little bit after. Oh, my God. The degree of force used was, they said, pretty moderate because the tracks of the wounds had not passed through any bone tissue. Okay. So

to the body of 13-year-old Katie, he said there were two stab wounds to the neck. One had entered the left side, resulting in a small defect within the right vertical artery. This caused a moderate amount of bleeding, but not enough volume of bleeding to have really messed with her cerebral blood flow to really be like the absolute cause of death um her body was found with a pillow over her face and they examined her

lungs and they said that she'd probably died from a hemorrhage from a stab wound to the neck and also smothering oh my god um there was an injury to one of her vertebrae which suggests that there was severe force with the stab to go all the way through to her vertebrae right initially lucas would not speak to this police when he was arrested he was like nope not saying a thing but kim was just like sit down and let me tell you what happened from the beginning because she probably thought that she was like cool well she just didn't care right it. It wasn't even, I'm cool. It's like, I literally just don't care. That's insane. So here's the story. That's insane. They said she had zero remorse, like, none. And when they even asked her, she was like, no, I don't care. I always am like, imagine, but imagine

being the investigator that had to talk to her. No. I'd be like, I don't want to be in the same room as you. Can we do this through a double-sided mirror? Yeah, I don't want to do this. Well, because they were both 14, the media couldn't name them initially when they arrested, you know, because of age. It was seven months until the trial happened. The town was freaking out. There were rumors starting about who the hell it could have been. Obviously, people were already being like, it was probably her daughter and the boyfriend.

Right. They were finally named in June 2017 when the reporting restriction was lifted. This is when people start remembering all these red flags that they're like, huh. Duh. So people said Lucas was obsessed with this case that had happened 10 months earlier than the murders of Elizabeth and Katie. And it had happened very close by. And it was a 42-year-old man, Warren Free, who was their friend Adam's father. Oh. And he had been attacked by local teens and killed. Jesus.

At his home. What's up with the teenagers in this place? Yes. It was 3 a.m. and some teens were destroying his fence. So he came out holding a metal pipe and was like, what the fuck, stop. They attacked him and beat him with the pipe, killing him on his front porch. Jesus. These kids got away with it.

How? They just couldn't be identified? Yeah. Was that really loud? It was really. Sorry. How? My bad.

Yeah, I don't... Sorry if I just bursted your car speakers. Yeah, I don't know how they got away with it but they just could be identified i guess well they were they went to trial i don't know how they got off somehow but lucas lucas was very intrigued by this yeah and adam said lucas was initially trying to be like supportive of him and be like oh i'm really sorry that your dad got murdered on your porch but he was more concerned it, with how they got away with it and what had actually happened. Like the grisly details he wanted.

He was already probably thinking about killing Elizabeth. He was already in that weird place. So when police asked, how'd you come up with this plan to Lucas and Kim? Kim told police, we just went on general knowledge, really. Because the voice box, the stabbing in the throat and the bath because of the dog so she wouldn't smell the blood what like you left the room a bloody fucking mess what do you mean you took a bath because the dog would smell the blood that doesn't even make any sense rooms full of blood you dumbass right what and she said also lucas doesn't like the smell of blood how do you know what how do you know that like what how have you

smelled that much blood that you know you don't like the smell like you i don't think anybody wants to smell blood really i'm sure some people do but like i don't think that's something many of us think about no like you've had enough around you that you've just sniffed it enough that you i don't even actually like think of like i have an opinion about much of us like i don't think i've been around enough blood to know what it smells like. It definitely does. And it's not like I don't want to smell blood. But, like, to have an opinion about it to the fact that, like, she's like, well, Lucas, I know for a fact that Lucas does not.

It's one of his weird neuroses that he doesn't like the smell of blood. Yeah. Which is strange. Okay, well, you know. She later told a psychiatrist, I wanted to get revenge for the way that my mother treated me. She then said, I did not feel anything for my mother. She deserved it, and I'm glad she's dead. And then Lucas described that he said when him and Kim first got together, he said he felt wanted, he felt needed, and he said then I felt like I had to protect her from any perceived threat.

Okay. So when he committed the murders, he said he was very calm, he felt very happy, because he said he was protecting Kim. Right. From the threat. Yeah, because her mom was so threatening. Yeah. So Kim says, you know, about the whole thing, she says, we felt laid back about what had happened. Neither as neither one of us felt bad about it.

Like she's just like, I don't give a shit. That's insane to me. And the detective chief inspector, Martin Holvey, said, quote, the fact of what happened in those 36 hours after and how she they carried on as normal, watching TV, watching a film, going upstairs to use the toilet while people are lying dead upstairs. It defies belief. It does. And he said he didn't even have a precedent for this. He was like, I've never seen anything like this.

I don't, I, wow. They also, they also considered it, more Kim considered it that she was doing a favor to her mother. She said, quote, my mom doesn't have to deal with me anymore being like suicidal and she doesn't have to wake up worrying every morning to see if I'm still alive. And then she said about Katie that she said she saved her from growing through, quote, the heartbreak and just all the emotions and stuff. What a hero you are, girl. So she thinks she is, she's doing everybody a favor. Like even now she's like, no, I did the right thing.

It's like, okay, but you just get to live the rest of your life? Obviously, she's in jail, but it's like... Yeah, it's like, that makes sense a lot. Okay, Kim. So they were both initially charged with murder. And in the UK, anyone over the age of 10, you are criminally responsible for your actions. Oh, wow. It's not like a minor thing where, like, you don't get murder because you're not 18 kind of thing.

Right. 10 is very young. Well, the defense tried to use mental instability, obviously. They were going to go for the insanity defense. So they were looking to get manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility. So a psychiatric report by Dr. Oliver White on August 15th, 2016, this is from the court documents, said that Lucas Markham was not then suffering either from a severe or enduring mental illness or from a depressive episode, although his mood instability was an important feature of his emerging personality structure. He recounted the history of his experiences of domestic violence between his

parents and the multiple different foster care placements which flowed from the breakdown of their relationship, culminating in his living with his aunt from the age of four or five, which was around the time his mother died of cancer. He had a long-standing difficult relationship with his father, which appeared to have been highly influenced by his father's drinking, resulting in a lack of care, supervision, and nurturing to the children. A consequence of his experiences during his childhood was that he had lacked the opportunity to develop skills and self-regulation of his own emotions. It was assessed that his specific emerging personality traits were in the domains of Okay.

The doctor also said that Lucas Markham had a high risk of continuing his trajectory with regards to his personality development, such as that formal diagnosis of personality disorder, it was probably going to happen when he was an adult. Right. He was like, if we had let this go and this had never happened, he would definitely have been formal. Because he's like crossing off all the things on the way. There was also another report on September 5th, 2016, and this was Dr. Tracy King, who's a psychologist. On September 5th, 2016, and this was Dr. Tracy King, who's a psychologist, they said there were no concerns regarding his intellectual functioning, such that might have led to a greater tendency to be influenced by others or to not understand the consequences of his actions. Oh, okay.

So they were like, he knows what he did. Yeah. He also had a history of early childhood trauma. They said the domestic violence, the father's drinking, that was an issue. They said these definitely, these experiences had shown to have organic neurochemical correlates in the brain. Uh-huh. These could be, there could be a gross alteration in the amygdala, the emotional center in your brain. Oh, okay. These would be evident in adulthood and would lead to emotional regulation difficulties.

Like, they're saying he just does not know how to regulate his emotions. His exposure to domestic violence and the fear that this would instill in a young child activated his primitive brain on a consistent fight or flight pathway. So they were like, because he was exposed to this violence and fear when he was younger of people he was supposed to trust around him, it immediately activated that fight or flight. Yeah. And he was just constantly in a state of fight or flight.

Right. Which brings you into this like... And he leaned a lot more towards fight. Exactly. Because he kind of had to from a young age, I guess. He just kind of like is always in the state of like,'s gonna hurt me so i'm gonna hurt people first kind of thing and it says for him this meant that minor threats and challenges could feel like a real threat to his existence like he took everything as primitive like i gotta protect myself um and

they said so he's gonna act disproportionately to these things. Right. Obviously. That's really interesting. I liked that you went into that. And they said he's also, when threatened, he's also very likely to experience a much higher degree of dissociative symptoms than what would be normal. Huh. So he will like just disassociate from like he's doing here. He's just telling it like, yeah, this is what I did.

That's really interesting. He just disassociates from it he's doing here he's just telling it like yeah this is what he did that's really interesting just associates from it completely right yeah so in the end even though they found all these things where they're saying you know the fight or flight response is constantly activated and you know when he's an adult he's probably going to be diagnosed with a personality disorder they said right now he doesn't he does not have an insanity defense he is not insane right he knows what he did. He's very aware. He's intellectually functioning. Well, and even if you do have a personality disorder, that doesn't technically mean you're insane, right? Because it's technically not, you know, it doesn't, certain ones I'm sure can go with

it, but what they're talking about doesn't seem to go with. And typically insanity is just a break in your sanity. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, you know, just some mental disorder that makes it so you can't understand the consequences of your actions. They said he definitely does. So in the end, they found that he was not going to get that defense. They had to give it up.

I think it was like the day before his trial was set. They were like, yeah, you can't use that defense now. Oh, shit. Imagine having, again, imagine having to scramble to yeah what are we going to say now exactly so he was first going to plead guilty to manslaughter but now they had to change it to pleading guilty to murder because he couldn't get manslaughter now now kim was also going to use that insanity defense and she was going to plead guilty to manslaughter did it work for her no wow um and the fact that she's not technically

insane is terrifying no well because she understands the consequences it's so crazy like i fully believe she understands oh i do too i'm just saying like so she should wow because you don't want to give it to people who just seem insane you want to give it to somebody who literally is like i don't understand what what i did right like wait what it's like a blackout yeah but she's like it's just i don't want to give it to her. I'm just saying it's so crazy. It is. That she did all of this and was like, yep, I did that.

Yeah. It's insane. It truly is. Exactly. But it's not. But it's not. So Lucas forfeited his trial when he did his guilty plea. So he was just guilty.

Now it's on to Kim. So Kim went to trial in October at Nottingham Crown Court, and she pled not guilty to murder, and she claimed mental illness. Now, she said that it was the mixture of her mental health and Lucas being controlling and controlling her every move that made her do this. Turning on each other right away. Exactly. So now...

Turning on him. Because he didn't turn on her at all. I was going to say. And in fact, it was released that she was very detached from lucas almost immediately well because she like probably has no actual attachment skill he did what she needed him to do and now she's done because she's only in again it's kim's world yeah she used him for what she needed him for and he's gone now out of sight out of mind yeah and now he can deal with whatever he needs to deal with wow and it's like they were literally obsessed with each other to the point of murder but after

he did it she was just unconcerned she said you know whatever he gets he gets i don't care that's insane like did not care and all of a sudden she's sitting there saying he was controlling and shit it's like what yeah and she's not controlling enough for like you wanted to like run away with him and start your life together but okay yeah And he, she had no emotional response to his sentencing at all. She didn't care. So she was assessed and a consultant forensic psychiatrist named Philip Joseph was the one to get some crazy shit out of her. So he said, I don't miss, she said, I don't miss my mom and I'm glad she's dead.

Even though I'm in a sticky situation now. Oh, it's just a sticky situation. Yeah, she also said, Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's good. At least it wasn't torture. In your mind. She also said about her sister, she said she felt a bit sad about that. A bit.

Yeah, a bit. So his conclusion in his report, which was September 22nd, 2016. So this girl is wildin'. He said she was not suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning caused by a recognized medical condition. And therefore, she did not have a defense to murder or manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. abnormality of mental functioning caused by a recognized medical condition and therefore she did not have a defense to murder or manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility he said the family dynamics were explored she had attachment difficulties with her mother she and she explained the circumstances leading up to the killings of her mother and sister

and said yes it was jointly planned and she was not forced to go along with it she said he did not force me to do it i i wanted this with him i wanted to do it like she was very forthcoming about that because she just doesn't give a shit she just doesn't give a shit and she said her mother was the main problem in her life and she said she felt excited about the thought of killing her um and she remained glad after the fact that her mother was dead she felt nothing not a stitch of remorse um and she said she did kind of feel a little bad about katie right so she said she missed her a little bit yeah um the doctor also said she did not accept or dr joseph philip joseph said he did not accept the loss of her belongings in that one

situation where like... Everything was moving. Yeah, everything was taken out of us. As the tipping point. He did not accept that as like a trigger. He was like, no, that happens to normal children. We just said it happened to us. They get through it.

They get mad. They move on. Like, we cannot call this the tipping point because that shouldn't be a tipping point. And a lot worse happens to people that don't kill their parents. he was like nope and he was like she has an adjustment disorder for sure yeah like this is not cause for what she did and they said um and they said right if she was suffering from full-blown adjustment disorder he said that she would not now continue to express satisfaction that her mother was dead he was like this would change if she was suffering from that okay it's not that's interesting she's still

sticking with this i did it i'm happy i did it and she's dead and that's fine i feel nothing so it's so scary yeah and yeah it's insane and then they had um dr liz yardley is a criminologist and she really specializes in child killers she said the sibling rivalry thing that she was using that like you know katie got more attention all that that's why i killed my mom she said that's bullshit that's not a motive she was like no that plenty of people have sibling rivalry and they don't kill people yep and she said it was just kim's entitlement to do whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted. And it's part of her psychopathy, essentially.

She was like, people think it's really in Kim's head, the whole, like, my mom wants my sister better. Because friends and family were like, no, she didn't favorite one of them. Well, and just to, I mean, it's a very small thing, but take that Facebook post. It's not like she didn't give a fuck about her. Exactly. She didn't ignore her. And then she was like, and even, and Graham thing, but take that Facebook post. It's not like she didn't give a fuck about her. Exactly. She didn't ignore her. And then she was like, and even in Graham said there was no favoritism. I did not see it. Not that, you know, of course he's going to say something nice, but it's like.

I mean, even take the fact that they shared a room together. It's not like Katie lived in this beautiful bedroom that Kim didn't have and Kim slept in the basement. Exactly. It's like, so both doctors were like, no, that is not. No, this is a bullshit motive that she's using to try to look like this like oh poor me right and it's like the real thing here is that she saw her mother as stopping her and lucas from being together she was threatened and it wasn't that she loved lucas because she i don't think she has the capacity to love it's just what

she wanted she wanted it she wasn't getting it and someone was telling her she couldn't have it and lucas was that person that was treating her like a princess and trying and holding her everything and she wanted that so she was like don't take that away from me and then they later say i mean the police ask lucas straight up because again kim is claiming you know Katie died because she was the cause of my my mom not paying attention and what did Lucas Lucas says to the police they were like why did Katie die and he was like well she would have called the police and they're like is that it and he goes pretty much oh so that proves that that motive of sibling rivalry is bullshit right it has nothing to do with it right They killed Katie because she was a liability.

She was just in the house and they had to get rid of her. But Kim is sitting here trying to turn it into something so she can be seen as a sympathetic character. Right. When in reality, she wanted her mom dead. That was the end of it. She wanted to kill her mom because she stood in her way. Katie just happened to be there.

Katie happened to be there. I wish that Katie had been asleep over that night know i really do and that elizabeth was too i know seriously i wish everybody was out of the house um so two expert witnesses those two ones were called to talk about mental um kim's mental state uh and they again said no they said yeah she definitely has some kind of adjustment disorder and she definitely has a severe attachment disorder like and that obviously has a severe attachment disorder. They're like, and that obviously stems from... She's, like, not attached to anything.

Yeah, and they were like, and this can stem from what happened in childhood. I mean, her father abandoned, she was in foster care, the thing with her mom, it's a lot. Yeah. So they were like, for sure. But they were like, it's not cause to give her the insanity defense. So they also said, quote, she seemed to enjoy the attention that she was receiving from a number of professionals

and had suggested in the future writing a book about her life. Okay, Kim. This suggested that she had an inappropriate level of self-esteem and self-importance and also felt a sense of justification in the harm that she caused to her mother and sister who she felt had wronged her so this proves too yeah it had nothing to do with that shit she's in love with herself she is an entitled piece of shit she's probably a narcissist she's for sure a

narcissist so the jury took two hours this is scary they are so the jury took two hours of deliberation and agreed that just because she had a shitty childhood does not mean you get diminished responsibility so unanimous um a unanimous answer of guilty of murder good so they were together in court in court for their dual sentencing and the judge is a fucking legend with what he said. Oh, yes. Hand it to me. I love good judges. He said, quote, You were, in my view, in a hermetically sealed, pathetic world of your own, of deep, deep selfishness and immaturity, where only your feelings and desires matter and no one else's. And then he said, I sentence you as children, which you are.

I sentence based on hope for you and for society rather than an expectation of your failure shit but he's literally like so you were in this pathetic little world that you guys are fucking gross and you're and you're you know how like 14 year olds obviously like i'm called children they're like and he's like yeah you're children you're fucking children so they were both sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of 20 years good uh may 7 2017 they both appealed saying that their age should be considered in sentencing no and it was reduced to life well they still were life but they had a minimum now of 17 and a half years what a reduction a lot uh and this was when their identities were officially made public in 2017. Elizabeth Edwards' partner,

Graham, said that he saw Edwards, Kim, and Lucas as, quote, another Myra Henley and Ian Brady. Wow. And especially Kim, he said, is Myra Henley. That's scary. But if you think about it, that is scary that they reduced it to 17 and such years because she would be in her early 30s. Yeah. Like, she'd be young as fuck oh absolutely and able to do this again yeah it's not good at all but again they could serve life again yes um but and he also said quote she should never ever be let out no um and that is the end that is where we stand i hope that they're never let out they're in prison uh hopefully for life but at a very minimum of 17 and a half years they were sentenced in 2017 so hopefully they run out of appeals i hope so i hope they don't get out

to be honest that's really scary and that was the whole part about the hand was really sad it was so brutal and then like just the callousness of them laying downstairs having sex watching twilight eating ice cream and just snuggling going to sleep at night on those mattresses with them dead upstairs for two two nights for two days it's like what the fuck is inside of you nothing it's brutal and they deserve what they got that is bleak that is bleak works in a mean girl's reference yeah i am well shook if that's so bleak now i'm really nervous because i don't know a lot about the um ian brady and myra henley case yeah that's that's gonna be a doozy just letting everybody know that is a hoo boy am i gonna is it gonna be like toolbox murders ask or toy box murder like we're in a different way in a different way yeah i don't, is it going to be like toolbox murders-esque or toy box murder? Like where I want you to stop.

In a different way. Yeah. I don't like that. It has to do with children because we haven't done a lot of children. Yeah. I hate it, but it's an, it's a very important case. Right. That's the thing.

And it's one that I know a lot of people have been dying to hear. And I get it because before I had kids, I was obsessed with reading about that case. I didn't like love that they killed children. Yeah. But it's the psyche yeah it was a little it was a little easier to stomach when i didn't have them of my own but see like i consider your kids like my practice kids so they're like a portion of my kids so like kid shit just fucks me up no matter what yeah it's when you can relate a child you love to i bet you're like oh yeah okay. Yeah. Well, that's next week.

Stay tuned. In the meantime, hit us with a follow on Instagram. At Morbid Podcast. I forgot the next part. Twitter. I know. You can always tweet at us at. A Morbid Podcast.

Send us a Gmail. Morbidpodcast at gmail.com. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you. Keep. It. Weird. We hope you're not somewhere that you throw a chair

across the classroom and meet your like soul partner that's probably really not your soul partner you guys shouldn't have met each other at all don't meet that person that does that and don't carry out these actions because they're not good they're not i don't know they're bad that wasn't my best but bye don't kill people don't do it bye bye bye I love you.