Morbid - Episode 174: Bible John

Episode Date: September 28, 2020

This week we are diving into a horrific fellow and the three murders attributed to him. Alaina gives us the gory details of all three murders, which some people think may not have all been committed by the same person. We’ll talk through the possible suspects, motives and idiosyncrasies of the man coined Bible John. Sources: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/how-notorious-killer-bible-john-12078716 https://www.vice.com/en/article/5947e5/the-mystery-of-bible-john-scotlands-zodiac-killer https://medium.com/@JohnWil/the-search-for-the-still-unidentified-serial-killer-dubbed-bible-john-ae786aeafda1 As always, thank you to our sponsors: Better Help: Better Help is professional counseling done securely online. Special offer for Morbid listeners get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/morbid Simpisafe: SimpliSafe’s got everything you need to protect your home with none of the drawbacks of traditional home security. Head to SimpliSafe.com/morbid and get a FREE HD CAMERA!!  Gabi: Take a few minutes right now and stop overpaying on your car and home insurance! Go to Gabi.com/MORBID See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wonderypod or text wonderypod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. Angie's list is now Angie, and we've heard a lot of theories about why. I thought it was an eco-move. For your worst, guess paper. It was so you could say it faster. No way. It's to be more iconic.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is morbid. Sure is. Still morbid, it still is, it always always will be forever and ever and always and always. Forever and always. We're going to be like cockroaches. Nebadae.

Oh, I was like, we'll be around even after the apocalypse. Oh wow. It'll just be us with two microphones being like hello. Like that. Chah, do kakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakak Cha ro ka ra ja. Precisely. There it is, precisely. You like the Rajas. So I think we don't have a whole lot to get to today before we jump into the case, which the case this week is Babel John.

I know I'm pretty excited for this. Yeah, it's like a little continuation of Peter Tobin. Because it connects. Monsta. And we had a lot of people from the UK and from all around the area being like, yeah, I'm glad you're covering this because this is huge here.

So I'm so glad that you guys are psyched about it and that I didn't ruin things or screw up things. So like, high five. High five. To me. And also I think the last couple of days on social media, like on our Instagram, we've been asking people to give us ideas for Halloween costumes for us. And first of all, you've all had amazing ideas.

You guys are killing it with the ideas. And keep it coming, like we are loving it, because there's a reason we're asking for these ideas. Let's wake up, tell you. We can't tell you yet, but we're going to hopefully tell you, I think, the coming week or so? Yeah, I think not. I want to say not this coming week, but the week after. Yeah, I mean, we'll let you know.

You'll know. We actually don't really have no idea. It's going to be very soon, though, because, you know, Halloween's next month. So, yeah, so we're going to tell you very soon it's exciting. We can't wait. We can't wait to, like, utilize we're gonna tell you very soon it's exciting, we can't wait, we can't wait to like utilize some of these ideas. And if you didn't get on Instagram to like hit us up with your Halloween idea, we'll do another post.

Yeah, we like, what do you think? Yeah, so you can throw in what you think, because you guys are so creative and amazing that I just love it. Yeah, somebody said that, because we asked like specific things like, oh, like what game of Thrones things for me Me and somebody said one of us should be a dragon the other should be a dire wolf. That was a great one That would be hilarious It was just so good. It was so perfect. So keep them coming

And I think the only other thing we wanted to mention was New merch in the merch store Yippee and there's some really great stuff there We did a design that kind of like captured both of our essences new merch in the merch store. Yippee! And there's some really great stuff there. We did a design that kind of like captured both of our essences. Yeah. It was like a mixture of both of us. Yeah, like a scalpel and a pair of shears.

So there's that. There's like a bunch of, there's like a tarot card one. There's a Ouija board one. So there's a lot of cool stuff. And you can go check that out at shop.morbidpodcast.com. And of course, we will be adding more stuff all the time. Yes, I know what's switching it up. A lot of people want to see zip up hoodies and some people

asked, people are still asking for, sorry about that stutter, people are still asking for rhinestone butts. Oh my god, yes. I just want to see the merch companies face when we ask for that. Right, so can we have this? We were just actually wondering if you could print that on the butt. Could you, uh, Badezl this for us? Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Probably not gonna happen, but we'll give it a shot guys.

We'll try it. We love you. We'll do what we can for you. We want to give you the world. We can give you the world Badezl with Ryan Stones. We'll do it. There it is again. So I think without further ado, Bob and John. Let's talk about Bob and John. The Bobble. So we connected him from last week or last episode, excuse me, because a lot of people think that Bible John, who is technically an unsolved case,

a lot of people think that he is Peter Tobin. A lot of people think he is him. They solved it. They think they solved it. I don't know. Oh, okay. I'm not sure. I can see both sides of it, but I'm not in place. You're not in place. Devils advocate.

I'm not convinced. So, and I don't know. I feel like we actually got a couple of emails from different UK listeners and like more people said they didn't think that he was, that Peter Tobin was Bible John, but we did get a couple that said they were convinced that he was. So it's interesting to see like what everybody thinks, but you're with the majority and with the majority. I'm standing firmly with them right now. So this is like I said in last episode, he's known as Scotland's zodiac killer.

I know. That's crazy. You know, he's like infamous and obviously it's unsolved as of yet. Also, a lot of people don't know if these, so these are three murders that are connected to him. A lot of people don't know if these three murders are technically the same person. Are they, because are they different? Not really, but there's, a lot of people think that the first one that we'll talk about obviously first is kind of a one-off that happened, and then the two that followed were copycat. Oh, okay. But I don't know.

I think it's the same person. When I think about it, when I look at it, to me it seems like the same person. So just to clarify, you think that it's the same person that committed these three murders, but you don't need Peter Tobin. But it's not Peter Tobin. Exactly. Okay. But, you know, it's the same person that committed these three murders, but you don't need Peter Tobin. Exactly. But, you know, let me spell that out for myself. You're like, so wait, let me catch myself up here.

So the first murder was in Glasgow, Scotland. It was in on February 22, 1968. Okay. So his first victim was Patricia Docker. She was 25 years old. She was a nurse at the time. She had brown hair, brown eyes. She was considered. She was very pretty. She was very, she was petite. She was just like adorable. Yeah. She was also married, but was separated from her husband and going like starting a divorce. Oh Patricia. Her husband was in the military. They had one child together, a four-year-old boy.

And while they were going through the whole divorce proceeding, she was living with her parents with her son. And this evening, February 22nd, she decided to go out to the Barrowland Ballroom, which we mentioned in the first, the other episode, where the dances were going on. This is where it's a dance hall. So this is just like, you know, kind of like, just somewhere you would go to like, have a night out.

Yeah. And she was leaving around 630-ish that night. And she was going to be going to their 25 and over singles night. I think it was like on Thursday night. Oh my god, that sounds like fun, but also horrible. Well, here's the thing. So at this time, in Glasgow, I mean,

dance halls in particular were like hopping. Yeah, the Glasgow was hopping. It was like the OG like club. It was lots of dance clubs, lots of bars, lots of nightlife going on. The Barrowland Ballroom was located in the East End. It was fairly popular, but not popular for the greatest reasons. Not popular because it was this really high end place to go. It was kind of a place

where a lot of married people would go to cheat on there, you know, and carry on affairs. It was basically just a pickup joint. Cool. Cool. Like you went there for that specific reason. Every city has one. You gotta have one. I think the majestic ballroom was like, maybe like a notch higher than the barrel line ballroom, but it was kind of a similar vibe to it too at this time. Okay.

So there definitely was a couple in the area that were like this, but I guess the barrel in ballroom was like pretty low on the ball. Right. The over 25 single nights on Thursdays were known as the time when people that were married came out of the woodworking. Like just coming out to try to cheat on their spouses.

Wow, that's horrible. They were also a lot of older women that would attend these, like older like cougars. I was gonna say like cougars, if you will. Yes, I will. So I won't. So that in an article I read on the daily record, they labeled this night, like a lot of people

would call it grab a granny night. Shut the fuck up, grab a fucking granny night. I'm out, grab a granny night. That's the fucking hilarious. Get out to the barrel ball, barrel in ballroom, and grab a motherfucking granny. See, I feel like as a 25 year old, barrel and ballroom, and grab them on the fucking granny. See, I feel like as a 25 year old, I wouldn't be going to grab a granny night.

No. I feel some competition with the older gals. Nabbanana night. Nabbanana. Oh my God. I'm trying to think of one. Move with a Mima on night. You're killing it.

Did you read that down? I did it right into the cup over there. I could show you. I'm like trying to think. It's too gloomy for me to think today. It's too gloomy. Maybe that's why I'm inspired. I'm like gloom gets me going.

So yeah, so grab a granny night. Move with a momma. That's my face. So that is where she went this particular night to grab a granny night. Not a granny herself, not a granny herself. But she was 25 years old. She got to go to the 25 and older singles.

And she was in the process of getting divorced. So I'm sure she was like, just trying to get back out there. Well, I'm sure it wasn't all manas and grandpa's. Yeah, I think it was just trying to get back out there. She's trying it. She was like, you know what? Maybe, and you know, I'm sure going through something like a divorce. You just need to go. I've not gone through one.

So, but I imagine it's a traumatic experience, no matter what. You loved that person at some point. And it's like, you probably feel a little like knock down a peg. You want to get some attention and feel like you're, you know, like get some attention from a vibe for someone else, you know. Honestly, to reference my last episode, she wanted to be young and get in it. Exactly. She was young and she wanted to get in it.

And she wanted to be get in it. And she deserved to get it. She did, but she did. She was a nurse. She worked hard. Exactly. She was young and she wanted to get it. And she wanted to be getting it. And she deserved to get it. She did. Patricia did. She was a nurse. She worked hard. Now, the problem was that Patricia had told her parents she was going to another dance all that night because she was like, I am not going to grab a gritty.

And people think like, either she had planned to actually go to this other ballroom and it just changed. Or she just was embarrassed to tell her parents because it had a reputation. I mean, I've told mom, Papa, that I was going to like plenty of places that I wasn't actually going to. Yeah, she maybe she just was like, you know, what I want to hear about it. She had told them she was going to the majestic ballroom, which was a little bit higher ends than this was. Okay. She did end up at the barreland ballroom and this did cause some issues later in the investigation when everything happened because initially the parents thought

she had gone to the majestic. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged,

it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children, and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wonder App. Hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena. And Ash, and we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa.

You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show, everyone was watching was about to come on. Well, in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee high boots

and paste that poster of Angel on the wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Hey, Lennos. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action, and romance. Episode by episode. Lacey, follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen early and add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir, eir just found near her home and laying side place and she was found by a man on his way to work. Oh God, that'll fuck you day up. And I guess she was placed near his garage so he was just like, oh, okay. Her clothes and her purse were missing completely. She was very close to her parents' home like yards away. Yeah. So this made a lot of people think

like she must have been on her way home and was attacked because why would she be so close to home? Or maybe that her co-incident? Maybe that a co-incident family. That's the thing. It's like was it was it coincidental? That like he happened to dump her really close to her home or and you know what already I'm thinking not Peter Tobin because Peter Tobin took these girls to his home. Exactly and he hid them after. Right. He liked to hide the shit. Yeah. He didn't like to display it out. Bible John, if you see, is known for display. For display.

See, that's a totally different MO. Exactly. Exactly. I've learned a thing or two. You have. You really have. And you know, you're on my same page here. I love it.

But yeah, the proximity to her house really can't be ignored. No. As just a coincidence, there has to be something to it. So she was on her back, and this is interesting. Her sanitary pad was next to her on the ground, because yes, all three of Bible John's victims happened to be menstruating at the time of their deaths. That's interesting,

because it's like, how would he have known that? Exactly, and we're gonna get into that because in Their pads were placed on or near them. Oh, that's so strange. So he made a show of this right which is interesting And we're gonna talk about it later because I have some theories about it That's like when we talked about the papine sisters. Yeah, I don't know why I said I like that Papine but beans is I made them like a towel And I think the papines the menstrual blood like it yeah, it definitely means something menstrual blood isn't just Yeah, I don't know why I said I like that. Papine! Papines is a- Papines is a- Papines is a- Papines is a-

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It looks like she was looking at her pad. Oh, yeah. Which is just strange. Her head and face were beaten very severely. Oh, no. She had marks on her neck that indicated strangulation by some ligature. It was later determined that the cause of death was indeed strangulation. And it was also revealed that she had been raped. Oh, no. When she hadn't returned home the following morning after she left for the barrelline ballroom,

her parents reported her missing right away. They had no idea that because she was found the next morning, remember, they already found this woman, the police. The parents had no idea that that was their daughter. Oh, no. No idea. So when they called the police and reported her,

they were like, oh, like we found the one. They found the one. They found the one. Which is really sad. Yeah. Of course, police went searching for answers because there was nothing going on at this crime scene that could tell them really anything. Right.

He most, he took basically all the evidence with him. I mean, he left some DNA because he left seem in a lot of these. I was just going to ask him that. But at the time, in the 60s, they could collect it. They just couldn't do anything with it. Now, one neighbor told investigators that she had her to woman scream,

leave me alone that night, the night before, but that's all they got. And it's like, why didn't they call the police? I would definitely call the police if I heard somebody scream, leave me alone. Like, I don't know. My dumbass would be like, I'm out. Like, let's go save her.

Yeah, like, if you hear someone screaming, leave me alone, just call the police. Like someone, I don't know like my dumbass would be like I'm out like let's go save her Yeah, like I feel if you hear someone screaming leave me alone just call the police someone I don't know try something go help her just go risk your life do it. You fucking hero be a hero Don't you want to be I don't know. It's just like when you hear that I do something or something in you Yeah, call someone other than just like I don't know a. Phone a friend, I don't know. People, man. 50-50. Earlier I said that she had told her parents she was going to the majestic ballroom in that I did hurt the investigation.

Well, that's because now they were going and interviewing all the employees at the majestic. And they were like, yeah, we didn't see her. And the employers were like, yeah, we don't know. And they really dug in and tried to get any witness accounts or sightings of who she may have left with, who she may have danced with that night, but you were like, no one here. So it was a colossal waste of time.

So it was like a week, like a couple of weeks that they were focusing on the majestic and that wasn't it. Her purse was eventually found, not her clothing, but her purse was eventually found in the river cart. So somebody had thrown it in the river. Is that close by? It was close by. It seemed like they So somebody had thrown it in the river. Is that close by? It was close by, it seemed like they must have just thrown it out on their way out wherever they were going.

This would be the first of three murders, like I said for Bible John, all three were raped. All three were strangled either with their stockings or by his hands, or they think that patrician may have been strangled by a belt. Oh. But it was never like, it was always a ligature. Yes.

All three were men straighting at the time. That's strange. Yeah, and all had the sanitary towels left on or near them. And then all three of the girls' handbags were missing, and the contents were just discarded. They were either discarded like near them somewhere else, but then the handbags were gone. They only found that one handbag. Weird. So the next one was August 15th, 1969. So that was a year and a half later. So that's a pretty long cooling experience. Which is why a lot of people think that first one is a one off and that the other two. But like there's other one, like Jeffrey Dahmer.

He in a very long year. He's in a very long year. And a second one that was like 15 years or something. It was like a long time. Ted Bundy had a really long, cool enough period. Ted Bundy. Before he went fucking wild. 30 years of doing nothing and then start trying

to start again at least. I can't remember. Ed Kemper had a little bit of a cooling off, didn't he? I think he did. I think you're right. I don't think it was a year ago. There's definitely examples of them taking time off. I mean, that is long, I will say. And who knows if he wasn't in prison for part of that? Who knows, you know, people get sick, people get jobs that take up their time and they can't focus on it as much. Maybe you had kids. Maybe you had kids, you don't know.

The first two years is busy. You just don't know. I don't know. So the second one, like I said, a year and a half later, her name was Jemima McDonald's. She was 32 years old, and she was a single mother of three. Oh God. So she went out to the Barrowland Ballroom with friends

while her sister Margaret watched her children for. Yeah. The next day, she wasn't home and her sister was getting really worried because she was like, she would have come home for her kids. This just doesn't make sense. And she would have contacted us if she wasn't. So Margaret kind of asked around and was like, has anyone seen her?

Did you heard from her? And then she started hearing rumors this following day that people had seen these young kids like little boys coming out of an abandoned tenement building on McEath Street, and that's in Bridgerton. And these little boys were talking about seeing a dead body in an abandoned house. Jesus. Like literally stand by me, the body vibes. That's like this little boy's being like, you wanna see a body. I'm like, what's up with all the little boys in this town?

Cause the early, in the last episode you did, they were playing with the dead dogs head. They're playing football with the dead dogs head. That's up with the little boys over there. Just boys being boys, you know? Boys will be boys. You know, just kidding. Shilies love it.

But yeah, this is like straight up stand by me. Yeah. The body style. So she heard this is like straight up stand by me. Yeah body style. Yeah She heard this and she's hearing these rumors and she's like, I don't know. I have a bad feeling. Yeah So she went to sleep that night and she said all she could think about was that Oh, she still hadn't heard from her sister and she's like I gotta know kids are probably like asking for her and for the next Mo so the next morning, which was a Monday She was her sister was so concerned. She went to that her. Well, and for the next, so the next morning, which was a Monday, her sister was so concerned, she went to that house.

Oh, wow, oh, I just got like, where are she found? Her mind was battered body. Oh my God, she found her sister. And she had a feeling, she knew it. That's like, that's some sister. That's some sister right there. That's your sister right there.

And she found her sister in a fucking old abandoned tenement house after little kids were talking about seeing a dead body. Wow. Yeah. Like that's some shit. Cause that could have been anybody's body. Yeah. Or just new little kids like making shit up.

And she that's what you like I would have been like little kids are weird. Right. Right. But she was lying face down on the ground. She was fully clothed, but her clothing had tears and like rips and was all de-sheveled. Her stockings and shoes were placed next to her as well as her sanitary pad.

She had been beaten exactly like Patricia, her head and face. She was clearly strangled and had been raped as well. It was determined that her own stockings were used as the ligature to str that her own stockings were used as the like a chair to strangle her with. They, and they said always that the cause of death was strangulation.

It was never the beating in the head and face. It wasn't severe enough to kill them. Oh, wow. But it's like severe enough to like, to make a difference. Yeah. They started, so the police started speaking with anyone that they could again,

and they're trying to get information. Since again, not much evidence is left on the scene except for semen which they found on the stockings and such but they can't do anything with it so her photo was actually put on the huge screen at the barrel and ballroom oh wow and because of this two witnesses came forward and were like hey we can help because we remember seeing her. Oh, good. And they were like, so they said they thought she came around 7 p.m. and she was seen speaking with some random dude. Mm-hmm.

And they said this guy had a Glasgow accent. He was tall. He was slim. He had short red hair. And he- It's always a fucking ginger. It's always a fucking ginger. As a ginger, I'll say it.

And around midnight, the two of them were seen leaving together. Shit. Uh-oh. These witnesses were asked to work with a sketch artist to get a composite for the man. And they did. It's not the famous sketch that everybody's seen. The one that we posted, I think. It's a different one.

Okay. He does look similar to the other sketch, but it's not that one. He just kind of looks like a guy. Like does he? Like there's really nothing that you're listening to. Oh, I would know that guy. If I saw something like it's just a guy. He could look like any guy. Yeah. You could kind of look like a lot of guys look like other guys. It's true. But like a lot of people will be like, oh Peter Tobin looks just like that. And I'm like, not really first of all, in second of all, you could stick a lot of guys, and you could probably stick to a bunny in there

and force him to look like that. Yeah. You know, it's just, I don't know, it just doesn't make sense. For some red hair on the- Well, in the first sketch didn't have red hair. Oh, because they didn't colorize it, so it was just like- Oh, gotcha, gotcha. A pencil sketch kind of thing,

so it literally could look like anybody. Right. But interestingly, this was the first time a composite sketch was distributed widely via like news and media in the UK. Oh wow. That's cool too. On October 31st 1969. Halloween Halloween. This is Halloween. A man was walking his dog in a field and found the naked body of a woman. The woman was Helen Puddick, or Puddick, P-U-T-T-O-C-K, Puddick.

Puddick, right? Talk. Puddick, Puddick. She was 29 years old. She was married and had two children, but I belouled them of children. Exactly. I did, there's differing accounts different accounts of issues married at the time

or if she was separated. Okay. So either way she had two children. Interesting that they all may have been separated or divorced. Exactly. I would say, I would say that later because it is an interesting little connection.

I don't want to mess up anything that you're saying, but I do have a theory going. This guy is mommy issues. Oh yeah, I'd say so. Sure. I'm actually knowing things. So she had been beaten in the face and head severely. She was raped, strangled with her own stockings. The contents of her handbag had been scattered nearby, but the bag itself was missing. Her sanitary pad was put under her arm. Oh, that's very interesting. There were grass stains on Helen's feet, which investigators took to see that there was definitely a struggle.

Maybe she tried to get away. And they said she definitely fought and tried to escape her killer. She also had a deep bite mark on her leg. Oh, wow. Yeah, which is fun. Very Ted Bundy. She had managed to tear off one of the killer's cufflinks and it was found at the scene. Oh, wow. That's great. And this is very interesting

because in, so, and this is in regards to connecting it to Jemima's case especially, because the man they had a sketch of and the one that witnesses saw her speaking with and dancing with that night, they said that he was, one of the things they said about him was that he was dressed very nicely. And cufflinks early. And yeah, and they said like a suit, like dapper's fuck, which was a very out of place for the venue. Right.

Barrel and ballroom was not somewhere you came in your three-piece suit. Like you said. Yeah, so a cufflink seems right on par with this. Right. Her killer was dressed so nice He was wearing cuff links, right? So these two connect to me They asked around the area and one woman said she thought she heard screams good lady. Yeah, all the fucking poem Please yeah, but she said she couldn't be sure

So what she was like I thought I heard screams, but what are normally sure? So after speaking to Helen's parents, they learned that Helen went out to the Barreland ballroom with her sister, Jean, around 6'30 that night. Both Jean and her left the kids with Jean's husband. Because I believe that this is where I think Helen might have been separated because they left them with one husband.

Yeah. Both women met men there. They weren't doing anything wrong, but like they like danced hung out with some people. Yeah. Both women met men there. They weren't doing anything wrong, but like they like dance tongue out with some people. Yeah. And they were kind of like hanging out with these men. And the man Hallowen was with said his name was John. Okay. And Jean, the sister, said that this guy was tall, slim, with reddish hair, and was dressed very nicely. Mm-hmm. Sounds like the guy. Does. The other dude left, at one point, the guy that was talking to Jean, the sister.

Did they say it seemed like the two were friends? No, they just met there. Just totally. And John and the girls decided they were gonna share a taxi back home. Because this is coming from her sister. Her sister's an eyewitness here. Yeah.

Like, has hung out with this man all night. That's fucking nuts. So her sister said he openly talked about but did not directly quote the Bible. And he said, he kept talking about religion and morals and he told the women, quote, I don't drink at Hogmanay, I pray. What's Hogmanay?

No idea. He also said that dance halls were dens of aiquity. Tomorrow you there. And he also told the story, like some Bible thing, where the woman was stoned to death for like adultery or something. And he's telling this story and they were like, cool.

Like they were like, this is weird now. And they were like, that's when you're like, that we shared this Uber. And this is obviously how he earned the name, Bible John. Don't share anything. If I've learned anything in life, don't share it. Just don't do it.

Jean said he really wanted Jean dropped off first. Of course. He was persistent. Because he liked talent. And he said it was because Jean lived the furthest. And he said, he would have to be in the taxi alone if she was dropped off last. Which is a good point.

And he said he was worried about that. He didn't want her left in the taxi alone if she was dropped off last. Which is a good point. And he said he was worried about that. He didn't want her left in the taxi alone. Fucking pran on people. And it's so logical that you're like, oh, yeah. So she also remembered that he said his name was like Templeton, Simpleton, or Emerson, something that sounded like that. She couldn't remember exactly. She also said something like when he was speaking, she noticed he had a tooth on the top right

that kind of overlapped the one behind it, like a snaggle tooth. You know, it's so funny. I thought that Peter Tobin kind of looked like my old stepdad and he had that snaggle tooth. He did, you're right. You're right. Well, Jean was dropped off first

because he wanted her to be. And Helen was like, I'm fine. And Jean's like, you know, like she's, and she, this is where like, but so does this. But I also didn't Jean have her children? Yeah. Oh.

So she was like, but I think she was like, you know, Helen was sitting out with this guy. Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Like, I gotcha. So she was like, yeah, like I'm just trying to give you some time, you know, because again, I think she was recently separated too. So I think it was like, get it girl. Right.

You know, like I'm just gonna let you. Female empowerment. Of course, Helen wasn't fine. So this is the next morning, she was found in the field. They created a, so Gene helped create a composite sketch because you should imagine having to do that while you're also mourning the loss of. I can't imagine a horrific death.

And this is the infamous sketch, like the red hair and everything. And again, Jean shared a taxi with this guy. And like spent like most of the night with him. So we can believe her description here. Yeah. And police now knew they had three connected cases because of everything we said. Now little side note, at first I was starting to think like what they were actually calling

this killer because they were like, yeah, these three cases are connected. But serial killer wasn't a term until later as far as I knew. Holden Caulfield, not Holden Caulfield. Holden, especially, you didn't holden him and stepped on the scene. There you go. I'm leaving. You know, hashtag Jonathan Graff.

So, but then I did a little research. Of course you did. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that.

I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. I'm not sure if I can say that. Ernst, August Ferdinand Gennat. Hell yeah, the director of the Berlin Criminal Police used the term, I'm gonna butcher this and I apologize. Serian mortar, in reference to the case of Peter Curtin, who's the vampire of Dusseldorf, we'll cover that. Oh yeah, that's a good one.

And in English, this roughly translates to series murderer. Right. Fascinating. Fascinating. Back in the 30s. Yeah, I like that. And in English, this roughly translates to series murderer. Right. Fascinating. Fascinating. Back in the 30s. Yeah. So it's just like that.

It's interesting. I don't know if they were referring to Bible John as a serial murderer at this point, or like a series murderer. Yeah. But like it's interesting to think about. I couldn't find anything of what they were actually calling him. You know what? I want to say they talk about that in what's the show that we always wanted to. Mine Hunter. I think they talk about that. Do they the show that we always want to enter. I think they talk about that. They say

something about series murder. Series murder. How it used to be called that. Yeah, it makes sense. So it's like, huh, that's cool. That was a fun little fact. A little fact. A little bit. A little bit. So a man matching the sketch was seen at 1.30 a.m. that night by another witness. They said he was very disheveled. Because he had just beaten a woman. He had scratches on his face. Because she fought like hell. Yep, and he was headed to the book from the bus to the Clyde Ferry that night because he was getting a lot out of there. Which I can see why people are connecting it to Peter Tobin because that was kind of his MO2. He did the deed then ran. Yeah, but he also like brought them with him. Yeah, exactly.

Now, tips started coming pouring in. They said something like 200, over 250 tailors were interviewed in the area because he was known to wear a suit. Right. None of them could recognize him at all. Yeah. They're like, I've never seen him.

A bunch of barbers, like almost 500 barbers were because he had a very like slick hair cut. They interviewed over 5,000 suspects and he's got nothing. Wow. Over 100 detectives worked the case and they took over 50,000 statements. So one thing I wondered was like did they interview the taxi driver? I feel like maybe, but also it might have been really hard to narrow him down. But like when I don't know, because it's like the certain time he picked her them up.

Yeah, you know, for a cab company. How big is Glasgow? I mean, it's, I don't know if that would affect it. Like I don't know if it's a thing. Because like think of trying to find one, like taxi driver in New York is like what I'm thinking. Yeah, that's true. But if it's like a certain, But if it's like a certain company,

and I don't know, I don't know if it's the same as I'm here. I don't know, this is your case. I don't know. So this is also when 16 police and investigators started staking out the barrel and ballroom, trying to mesh with the crowd, like dressing like civilians. And they were trying to see if they could spot this guy

because obviously all three of them, he met them at the Barrel Landauro. That was his place. They were led by Detective Superintendent Joe Beatty. And Jean went with them sometimes, the sister of Helen. That must have been horrible. I know. I know.

And she always tried to help with like sketch ups, sketch ups, sketches, line ups, like all that shit She was always trying to help the case. I heard it like to do that. Yeah, she was always into it like till the day she passed away It remains unsolved. I know that's so nuts. Yeah, it's insane So some of the theories are that maybe he was in the military and went overseas Mm-hmm And wait that's why because, because again, it stopped. Right.

Right, to that third murder, it stopped. And I'm sorry, what year was that last murder? Was it 71, did you say? No, that last one was 1969. Oh, 69, okay. Where the fuck did I get 71? Not sure, but it's okay. And maybe he's in the military, maybe he went,

you know, that's why it stopped. Maybe he was in prison for something else. Yeah. Or like you said, he might have mommy issues, and maybe he was being hidden, right? By a mommy, right? Because it certainly seems like that could be the case. It definitely, that's the first thing I thought of. Now, when it comes to the sanitary pads and the menstruation, like you were saying,

how would he know? Yeah. Well, maybe his whole thing was he wanted to sleep with these women. And that's what I was thinking. And he would get pissed when he found out that they were menstruating and he freaked out and murdered them. But he read the other amount. But that's the thing. But maybe they were like, I'm on my period, we can't have sex. And he would get pissed. And then all the other times he would pick up women, they weren't on their period. So he would just have sex with them and leave. Yeah. But these women who said no, because I'm on my period, probably got him angry. It's kind of, I don't know if this is stupid to say, but it's interesting that they indeed were on their period because like how many times have you been like,

I'm on a period we can't. Yeah, exactly. So, but it's like, it seems like these ones were, you know, this is telling the truth. Yeah. And that's why he decided to make such a display out of it because it was the reason he was so angry. Actually, that is like, yeah.

Because I can't really think of another. There's no other way you know. Now, well, and I can't think of another reason why he would display the sanitary pads. Because I feel like it's almost like it was a fuck you to him and he made it a fuck you to them. Exactly. That's the thing. Yeah. And rage him that that was the reason he couldn't sleep with them.

Right. So he would rape them and then display the pad like see. I still got to do it. I still got to do it. Yeah. His like flag of like I did it. Yeah, exactly, which is discussed. Fuck.

So all the way forward in 1983, all of a sudden this dude came forward and was like, whoa, I used to go to the Barrel Land Ballroom all the time with my friend. And I was reading the papers and for five years I was like, wow, this Bible John case is like really bad. And wow, that's crazy. And then it hit me that this guy was totally my friend. I went to the barrel and ballroom with Chuck E. Well, while there, buddy.

And now apparently this dude who is not named anywhere was living in the Netherlands and was married. And nothing really came of this. So just weird. This guy just came forward and was like, I think it's my friend. And they were like, okay. And then that was it. Maybe they looked into his friend and they just looked into it and they were like, okay, and then that was it. Maybe they looked into his friend and it just just looked into it and they're like, yeah, you're dumb.

He's never been named. So that was just interesting because it seemed like it was gonna be a big break and then it was nothing. Now during the murder spree, people in the area thought that the Bible John was this guy named John Irvine McKinnis. He was related to another suspect that was looked at

and he kind of fit the bill. Why? Of what it was. Well, in 1980, unfortunately though, he completed suicide at the age of 41. And he had done it by cutting his break-eal artery, which is in your upper arm, which is like a very random way to do it. So in 1996, they exhumed his body. And they exhumed him for his DNA because they were going to compare it.

And they compared it to the demon found. Oh my god. Oh my god. It's probably auto corrected. It is Damon. No, it's Damon Simon. And C. Does Damon. It is Damon.

They compared it to the semen found on Helen stockings and it was inconclusive. Okay, that's annoying. found on Helen Stockings and it was inconclusive. Okay, that's annoying. So not enough to name has met as the killer, but it's like not enough to roll them out either. And I think when I said he fit the bill, I think he looked like the guy, he did go to the barrel and ballroom.

He kind of had, like, he kind of fit the whole vibe. So they were like, hmm, yeah. Like a lot of people were like, you should look into this guy. So that was like, hmm, like shit, you know? It's too bad they couldn't get yeah, like a lot of people were like you should look into this guy So that was like mmm like shit, you know, it's too bad They couldn't get like more of a sample exactly and it's and the sample was deteriorating the longer we're going Right this it's like we're like how many years later. It's like deteriorating nothing Then we fast forward to 2007 shit when Peter Tobin did his whole shit

So professor David Wilson was the guy who pointed out the idea that Tobin was too old to just be beginning killing with Angelica Clark's murder, which is true. Like he was like, he was like, it's a big sense. And how he behaved after it suggested that he had done it before. Also, all of his wives said they were beaten, raped, and strangled by him. Yeah. Which is exactly what Bible John would do. But all of his like, um, not his wife victims, like the victims that weren't his wife, they didn't have very many similarities. No. Well, they all were beaten. Right. And most of them were strangled to some degree.

But they weren't killed by strangulation. Yeah. He also met his first wife at Barreland Ballroom and people think that he does kind of look out like the sketch, but I don't agree. I don't think he looks like the sketch at all. Yeah, I don't think he looks like the sketch. Also Peter Tobin was short. Right. He was like, five feet or something like that. He was short as in not like short, you know,

he just shorted a shorter man. Then Bible John was said to be at least six feet tall. Like he was known to be tall. And you're not gonna mistake that for that. Yeah, you're just not. And also Peter Toven doesn't have red hair at all. And I mean, I guess it could be like a lighting thing that like maybe some people thought he had red hair,

but like, I feel like when dudes have run hair You know it right yeah, so yeah, I just don't think he looks like the sketch But his wives all also claimed that it pissed him off when they were on their periods. Okay, that's weird And that it put him in fits of rages huh That's a courageous fits of rage I didn't even pick up. I was like, why did that sound so weird coming out of my face? He was also a Roman Catholic. He was also super religious. Uh-huh. So Bible. That does it does check out. I wonder if he had mommy issues

because we didn't know. I do wanted a channel that you don't know a lot. So he was 5, 10 by the way. Okay. Not too far. So he was in short. He was just not over six feet. Right. But that could be a mistake. Well, I, you know, I have no like, I know I'm really bad at that too. Yeah. I could do that to be like six feet. Like I could say that John was like six seven. And the other thing it was all these women were short. So he probably. So maybe he comparison. He looked like six feet. Right. So I didn't even think of that. So maybe it's not because you looked like six feet. Right. So maybe, I didn't even think of that before. So maybe it's not, because you make John look taller,

because you're tiny next to him, not Bible John, you are John. Yeah. I mean, in the beginning, when you were going through all the murders, I was like, no, no, no. But now that you are saying, there are a couple of things that's like, It's like, huh? And I just, I'm not, I'm not completely, right? But I'm not totally on the other side. Exactly. That's why I'm kind of like, I get it, I'm not to either way. Right. But I'm not totally on the other side.

Right. Exactly. That's why I'm kind of like, I get it. I get both sides. Yeah. Two women did come forward at this time in 2007 to say that they had been attacked or almost attacked at the Barreland Ballroom by Peter Tillibet. It's the point of the Barreland Ballroom.

I know. They both said that they saw his photo in the media and they almost fell over because they were like, he's 100% Bible John. Wow. And they were like, this was around the time that like Bible John was doing his thing. Yeah.

Professor Wilson, the guy who first said like, you know, the Angelica, or the Angelica Cluck murder was not his first. Uh-huh. He said that he knew they, he was like, I know these two people are the same people And he was like during the trial He was like Bible John is Peter Tobin Peter Tobin is Bible John right and he said that and this was for during the trial for the murder of

Dynomic nickel yes, and So she was the one who was hitchhiking with that guy David Tremlet after the music festival He was the one who was hitchhiking with that guy, David Tremlet, after the music festival. After the music festival. And David Tremlet was dropped off first, left her with Piotr Oben. Just like how the Helen Sassi. Exactly. And he said that the man who killed Dino was very superior acting and like very like sanctimonious. I can't make sure like Peter Tobin being sanctimonious.

I know, but he was because he was like, he was very like, he used his religion a lot to be high in mighty. Right, right. And Gene, Helen's sister, said the man who killed her sister was the exact same way. Like very sanctimonious, very superior acting, like same exact thing. Interesting. Now apparently one of Peter Tobin's known aliases, because

remember I believe he had over 50 aliases, was John Semple. And she had said it sounded like Timpillton or exactly, she had actually said his last name was Templeton or Sempillton or something like that. And he's and it's John Semple. But she says, Jean, Helen's sister, who spent the whole night with this Bible John who killed Tobin. He's, she said, Peter Tobin is not Bible John. Hmm. So maybe he just didn't age well.

That's the thing. It's like so long. That's really the only thing that like gives me pause. Is the sister saying that he's absolutely not him? Because like you spent the whole night hanging out with him. That is true. That is true. That is true.

I don't know. The only thing that I can think of is you said a lighting issue, where it's always dark in bars like that. And then you're driving home in a taxi at night. Yeah. But I couldn't even. And it was a long time ago. So maybe the sketch looks nothing like it.

It does not look like him. I don't think it looks like him at all. No. So Jean passed away in 2010. Oh, R-A-P-G. Weirdly, her last name was McGlocklin. Shut the fuck up. An atliest Peter Tobin used.

That he would almost do as a fuck you, if you think about it. Which I thought was like, that's weird. That gave me a little bit of a chill. Yeah. I really think that's weird. And they did test the DNA on the stockings in compared it to Tobin's DNA. And it didn't match. But that could be because it was decades old. Yeah, it's just almost nothing. It's just not a good sample to use. I think anything would have said no. Yeah.

Now, David Wilson, the professor that we talked about before, he said about this case, about Bible John being Peter Tobin. He said, quote, I didn't set out to prove Tobin was Bible John, but I would stake my professional reputation on it. Wow. Yeah. Now, I mean, I don't know. I mean, obviously he's a lot more educated than we are.

It's, yeah, it's like, it's, I think some of the weird things about this are obviously the menstruation aspect. Yes, and what his wives had said. Which to me is, what I believe is that he would pick these women up to have sex with them. Some of them he was able to have sex with and went about his merry way. The women who said, no, I'm on my period, he went into a fit of rage and murdered them and made a show out of the period. And then I also think that there's something to do, like you said, these women are single mothers. He's very religious. I'm not saying

all religious people are like this, but he sounds like very, very aggressive, like angry religious person that is very judgmental. And it sounds to me like he might be using these women as an example of sin. Well I think, especially like some religious people, like they take the Bible as like more, not a suggestion, but they don't take it like word for word, they warp it to fit their own hate. And I think he was like really somebody that did that. He seemed like a hateful person.

Yes. Warped it to fit his fate. To fit his fate is exactly. And I think he was doing that like the adulterous woman gets stoned. Yeah. And these are sing, these are women who are separated

and also single mothers. And now they're out and they shouldn't be out. Which she's probably saying like, what exactly? Why you out? These places are dens of a niquity, you're a mother. You're a mother. And I'm gonna teach you a fucking lesson. Teach you why you shouldn't be out.

Yup, wow, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But again, technically it's an unsolved set of murders. We don't know who Bible John is. And we may never know. Part of me definitely thinks he's Peter Tobin, but then another part of me gives pause. He's Peter Tobin-esque.

Yes, yes. But a lot of serial killers's Peter Tobin-esque. For sure. Yes. But a lot of serial killers are just serial killer-esque. That's the other thing. It's like they all kind of like play off each other. Right. And you can kind of fit them all to like each other in a little way. Right.

Here or there. And there are some similarities that you're like, all right, that's interesting. And that, you know, that professor saying I would stake my professional investigation on it. That's huge. And I know some of the original investigators in the Bible John case have all said they believe 100% Peter Tobin is Bible John.

But I don't know. I'm not convinced. I know. Well, that happens sometimes. People are like, I would stake my career out and I believe it. And then it turns out like you got like 100% match in their real ship.

Like, well, I'm a little crazy. Yeah. It's like, maybe it's just... You just never know. I don't know. I can't, I honestly am not. I can't stand on either side of the fence. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I want to stand on one side, but that one gave me like such an eerie feel. Yeah. That was a very crazy one. That's a strange one. So that's the tale of Bible John. Thank you. Bible John. The Bible. What's that? What is that from? Why do I keep saying that? The Bible. I don't that? What is that from? Why do I keep saying that?

The Babel. I don't remember. What is that from? Remember, it's from a movie that I used to watch a lot. It is a watch a lot. What's that movie, everybody? The Babel. The Babel.

Somebody just says it like that. Yeah. Oh man, it's gonna bother me. Yeah, if somebody knows what, because I'm sure somebody's listening and screaming the answer. Yeah, exactly. So just scream the answer at us, please,

because I need to know. Comment it to us on Instagram at Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Twitter. A Morbid Podcast. Send us a Gmail. Morbid Podcast at gmail.com. And definitely shop our new merch

at shop.morbidpodcast.com. Yes, it's so good. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it. We're, but that's the way that you got mad at somebody for being on their period and then you're like really beating them and like hurting them really badly and then you kill them and then you tape their sanitation bat under their arm because that's just really

gross of you it is stop having your mommy issues don't do it it's like come on don't be bible John get out of here or Peter don't keep it that weird bye Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.