Morbid - Episode 227: The Mysterious Death of Thelma Todd (With Special Guest Cameron Esposito!)

Episode Date: April 23, 2021

Today we are joined by a very special guest, Cameron Esposito, to talk all things comedy and true crime! It’s the perfect mashup of worlds. Ash takes us through the Thelma Todd case from Thelma’s childhood in Massachusetts to when the young ✨Hollywood✨ starlet was discovered dead in her own car. Together we wonder what a car is exactly, why the Hollywood machine is so scary and whether we are prepared to be found paradoxically undressed. Thanks so much to Cameron for joining us!  As always, thank you to our sponsors: Article: Get $50 dollars off your first purchase of $100 or more. Go to Article.com/Morbid and the discount code will be automatically applied at checkout!  Prose: Get 15% off your first order today! Go to Prose.com/morbid Purple: Right now, you’ll get 10% off any order of $200 or more! Go to Purple.com/morbid10 and use promo code morbid10  PrettyLitter: switch to PrettyLitter TODAY by visiting PrettyLitter.com and use promo code morbid for 20% off your first order. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wandery pod or text wandery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. Angie has made it easier than ever to connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well. Just bring them your project online, or with the Angie app, and answer a few questions. With Angie, you can book instantly at an upfront price, or request and compare quotes from multiple pros, so you can find the best price for your project.

So the next time you have a home project, just Angie that and start getting the most out of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Alena. And I'm the third person camera-nasposito. And this is morbid. on the show for you guys today. We have Cameron Esposito. Cameron is a comedian, an actress, an author, an activist, and she and her dog take fashion to a whole new level. I have to say.

That last part is definitely the most important. That's what I'm working on. Pretty hard right now. It's changing the world. Photographs with my dog while we were corresponding outfit. It's like my favorite part of the day. It's just scrolling through Twitter and being like, oh my god, look, a camera in her dog.

I loved the Easter one. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Yeah, Ruby's, she's game, actually. That's what I love that. I love that. She's game. She's very good at posing. And also, the world has been so overwhelming.

I don't know. For some, yes, I'm doing work and having a friend or just depending on a relationship. Things are happening, but I just feel like, I don't know, I just needed like something that was a reasonable career goal that felt like it was within my control and that had nothing to do with anything. There you go. That's like the perfect outlet. It's impressive that you're able to do it as much as you are though with everything that you have going on to be able to coordinate that.

Oh my god, thank you. I'm really impressed, seriously. And I was saying to Cameron, before we even started this, we're super nervous, because I was saying you're the coolest and most famous guest that we've ever had on, so we are huge fans of your work. And I have to tell you, my boyfriend was freaking out that we were gonna have you on an episode and his cousin was like, Ash, what the heck?

So I wanted to tell you that we're huge fans. We had to shout it out. we were gonna have you on an episode and his cousin was like, Ash, like, what the heck? So I wanted to tell you there, like huge fans. We had to shout it out. I think you're, yeah, I'm happy to be here and I'm totally unprepared. Happy and totally unprepared to be here. That's the best way to be.

I was gonna, I feel like that's how we show up every day to the podcast is super happy, enthusiastic and like, modly unprepared. Who knows what will happen. It comes out. So we'll go with it. Yeah. But when we were talking about it earlier, we were like, oh, she's like, you know, the most Hollywood person that we've had. And then I was like, I, I felt like we should be talking to you like in Focus Focus when they're like, Hollywood. Hollywood. Like the first thing that came. But we won't steal your shoes.

We won't do it, though. Have you seen Hocus Pocus before? Framework for Hollywood is Hocus Pocus. Yes, absolutely. Hocus Pocus is very scary. It is. But like in the best way. It is.

So Billy is super scary. That, I actually, as a child, that, I mean, not a child. I was like, probably a teen when that movie came out, but that is a really scary He's a really scary character. He is so you know, it's hard to recover from that and live the rest of life It's true. I remember the first time I saw it. I was like wait what is happening right now? Like a man coming out of the TV to come and get me like what? I know my husband was not happy when I was my four year olds I four year old twins and I was like you need to watch Hocus Pocus. That's one of my favorite movies of all

time and he was like um I don't know fours the correct age for that but they powered through they did it. It's definitely a start on life and also I'm gonna like humiliate myself here because I've actually interviewed this person. I can't remember his name right now, the dude who plays Billy. I was too also plays every skinny guy. He's never surf or any plays the gentleman from Buffy. Oh my God. And he's the best episode of Buffy. Yes, he's, anyway. He's also the guy from Pan's Labyrinth. Oh, he's this guy with the hand. Absolutely. You need to hold your hands up. I know who you're with. Yeah, just the guy for pan's labyrinth. That's like a, it's like a muscle reflex. I feel like I need to

look up his name now. Well, while you do that, I'll ask you our first question. So obviously we know that you're like Hollywood and so cool, but there is a little bit of Boston and you we read. Doug Jones. Doug Jones. Oh, got it. Yeah. You know you're good, you're good. Yes, sorry. And also quick little thing about Dug Jones, in the part where he cuts his mouth open, and hawk his, and hawk his, hawk his, hawk his,

hawk his, hawk his, and like moths fly out. He really put moths in his mouth, fly moths. No. That's one of the worst things I've ever heard. He's so committed. That's so committed. Yeah things I've ever heard. He's so committed. That's like, yeah, that's over-committing. I just had to give Doug Jones that the all day, I think. Okay, well, I am so sorry for interrupting.

Please go back to how hollywood I am. Certainly. So I was saying, we know there's a little bit of Boston in you because you went to Boston College. Yes. I did. Yeah, I went to BC and then I lived in Somerville for a while when I like had my first job right out of college.

I worked at Improvice Sylum and Improv Boston, which are like the two improv theaters in Boston. And Improv Boston was like for improv nerds. Like everybody had gone to MIT or was currently working at an underground lab at MIT. I love that. I love that. I was that going on. But then improv asylum was like the more commercial theater.

And I got hired there. I got hired there three months after graduated from college. I was 21 or 22 years old. I'd never had a job before. And I got hired right onto their main stage. Everybody was like my age now. Like everything was like in the late 30s or 40s had been like hustling their asses up.

Oh my God. And you're like, hey guys, you're like, I am a child. I literally like remember when you first, I mean, I had to get pulled aside by the managers who told me that it was not appropriate for me to wear crop tops. You're like, but why not? Because the audience kept being distracted.

And you're like, what? That is something that would absolutely happen to me in that situation. So relatable. She's like, same. She's like, two, man. I don't know where she's going. I'm just trying to wear a crop top.

And you're like, this is my time to wear crop tops. Don't take it. That's hilarious because I worked at a restaurant for like a wicked long time. And I think I was like 15 when I started there. And I worked there till I was like 20. But I remember I got asked a prom there. And I was like taking a prom picture

and I had a crop top on. It was like not like a full crop top, but it was very cropped. And my boss at the end of the night was like, he's like this huge Irish dude with like a broken everything. And he was like, love, I'm so happy you got us to the prom, but I am gonna have to ask you not to wear that shirt again. Yeah, exactly.

So we've all been there. We've all been there with the crop tops, seriously. So you were juggling like a lot when you were in college. You were like going to those, both of those improv places. And then I read that you were wanting to get into social work and like pretty much started doing that. Yeah, I mean, I've had a, I've always been doing, doing too many things,

is one thing I would say. I relate to that so much. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say that to you. Yeah, I, I'm from the suburbs of Chicago. Like nobody was in the entertainment industry. So I actually didn't know this was like a real job. Even when I was doing comedy professionally,

immediately, I still had like when I worked at those places in Boston, I worked 40 hours a week doing comedy. I also worked 40 hours a week at a school. So I just worked 80 hours a week. Like I just thought this is how people manage their life. Yeah. So eventually I applied to social work school

and I got accepted and I was going to school at the University of Chicago. And I was also doing stand up. And there was a woman, I mean, I don't remember this woman's name, but she was a returning student. And she was like, sweetheart, you can always be a social worker. I don't know if you've heard that like the entertainment industry does prioritize youth. Just that's why I say it was like one of these things that if I were you, I'd be going after right now. It would be Duke comedy first. You'd write to also be a social worker at the same time.

This will be waiting for you. I love that. She's like hot tip. She like Ron Swanson did. She's like, whole ass comedy. You don't have fast toothache. Exactly, exactly. Yes. So is that kind of how you made the switch from all of that into comedy? Yeah, I think it's just like, you know, sometimes when there isn't an exact model, I think I just needed like permission.

Like I didn't understand what I was supposed to be doing, right? So after that, then I had more like gig type jobs while I tried to make it financially. That makes that to be full time in comedy. I was the person that stood outside and handed you a granola bar while also being dressed as a granola bar? Oh, I connoisse. Yes, so important. Yes, so important. That's awesome. I love that so much.

I know, right? So you become like this well-established comedian. And then you go on to write this really awesome book, which we both were kind of like reading as we're leading up to this interview. Save yourself came out in 2020 right at the beginning of the pandemic. So do you think that was like a hinderance? Or do you think that the pandemic helped? Because so many people were home

and like wanting to read something. Oh, it certainly didn't help, because my book is released week one of the pandemic. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. It is called Save yourself. I love that so much.

Did feel like, it did feel like 20, 20. I'm weird timing. It was like, it's a pun. Yeah. You know. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill? Or are they made to kill?

I'm Candace DeLong, and on my podcast, Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, breaking down Lori Valow, a.k.a.

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Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers,

and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children, and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. You know, I will say like, so it's, I feel very grateful because it was still a best

seller, which was amazing. I mean, I want to talk you through how amazing that is. I had a whole tour planned and the tour all of the tickets, a book came with them. So when the pandemic happened, literally like a week before the book was going to come out, we canceled the entire tour, the funding, all of those sales. And so people just went on, I like redirected people to buy it through indie bookstores and they did. So that's amazing because I just have to say for people to be that kind and essentially buy it twice. That just seems, it's a lot of effort.

And then also, I do, in a world where I could control things, perhaps I would have actually been able to go out on the road with it, but I had some pretty amazing experiences because I couldn't, namely, I had like heard about Zoom. We were not using Zoom yet. Nobody was using Zoom yet. I didn't even know it was a thing. It was not a thing.

Right. It was like, no articles had been written about it. No. And my partner ran some Zoom events for me and I would invite people that I know. And I know like really amazing impressive authors, you know? So like Roxanne Gaye and Tegan Quinn and say Jones were doing these panels with me.

But again, it was so early in the pandemic. But there were like 500 terrified queers in our houses, like freaked out a panel of like New York times best selling like highbrow authors. And we got Zoom bombed and somebody shared the most hardcore pornography I have. Yes, I read about it in my life. I read like a little bit about that.

We worked this. I was just gonna say we were gonna ask you about it. Did you feel like you were literally like, I'm very different, but like, you're on stage again with like a heckler entering the chat, but a heckler that's like, here's some hardcore, I'm just like, pulls that porn hub on their phone. I mean, we didn't know what Zoom bombing was.

Like, that's not happening. We didn't even about that yet. So I was like, we did I press the, the whole program. Oh my God, like, is that a filter? I always used to even happening. I did the classic thing, like the classic thing you do when you're really good at technology.

And I slammed my... You know what I mean? I was just... I was actually what I would do. Make it go away. I'm leaving. I like this lens for everyone. That is amazing.

They did that to Britney Spears too, minus the porn, but they like went into her like trial for her conservatorship and like zoom bomb to that How does anyone is safe from zoom bomb? Right zoom bomb to her conservatorship. I'm not even kidding you. Nothing safe. Nothing is safe. Great or safe anymore Like that break that. That's a great or safe anymore. Like, that break, that is, that's right. Maybe this, that like right. It is tough.

It's kind of collected. It is a lot. It's a lot. It is. How do I just don't understand? Like, you have to be pretty good at hacking. Like, I can't even get on to Zoom things that I'm invited to.

I can't get on to them when I make them. Like, I make a Zoom meeting and I'm like, how do I get in here? How do I let other people in? I don't know how this works. In make them. Like I make a Zoom meeting and I'm like, how do I get in here? How do I let other people in? I don't know how this works. In fact, it just happened with this Zoom. I was like, Andy, like our manager, I was like, are you the host?

Like, how do we let everybody in? We're like, how do I get in this? How do we do this, Andy? Help. You know what? Some people have a lot of time. Yeah, to say the least. A lot of time and no shame, apparently.

Just so. So again, like just putting it back to like stand up, I'm a huge stand up comedy fan, like huge. Me and my husband, our entire relationship is built on going to stand up shows. Like, oh my god. Yeah, one of our first dates was at a stand-up show. Like, we've been to like hundreds. I see what they're saying. Yeah. So we are, who did you see? I love the scene. We've seen. Sorry. Who was our first one? Actually, our first one was Gary

Goldman. Oh, the goal. Of course. And we saw him actually at the comedy seller in New York because we got like the tickets and we happened to get put like right on the stage. I think that's same night like Amy Schumer just like popped in and we were like, oh okay. But so I'm a huge stand-up comedy fan. I always wanted because I was thinking about how it must be that whole zoom bombing thing is like having a heckler that like can just infiltrate what you're trying to do. So I always wondered, how do you choose when you get a heckler at a show, because I'm sure it happens literally everybody? How do you choose which ones to ignore and which ones to respond to or integrate into

the show a little bit? Because I know everybody does it a little differently. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different factors. One is, for instance, sides of the room. Like, sometimes if you're playing for, say, thousands of people, there is something happening for, I, as a performer, will be aware of stuff that is happening in the room that not everybody will be

aware of, because, like, you can't hear or see everything. Yeah. So, in that case, it's almost oftentimes, it's almost better to just try to plow through, which is difficult. It's not fun to do that. But then in a small room, when everybody knows what's going on, that really requires some attention because it's distracting for the rest of the audience. Right, for sure. And you know, the thing that is frustrating about it is that like, you know, I'm going to win because number one, either I'm like,

better at this because it's my actual job. Or I can just have that person kicked out. Exactly. And it's also, I will just say it's not fun to win that way. No. Because I think that like oftentimes I just think I'm thinking about in terms of no one people share video when there's like some like viral

video about like comic destroys heckler. I just wanted to say that that actually feels shitty because I'm sure. Like it's not, it's not like what I came up there to do and it feels like giving somebody else control of the night. Even you win. Like it's like you win, but like, but is that really a win?

It does somebody, yeah, exactly. And it's like negative attention. It's like winning attention, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's giving them what they want a little bit. So it's like, because they clearly did it to get like some sort of attention. I feel like it's like dealing with trolls as creators,

but you deal with it like in real time, which I'm good with that. Like, I don't know how people do it. Yeah, because we have like time to like take a moment and be like, okay, don't respond to that. Yeah, like go read a book. I don't know, like go pet a dog. Like have a moment.

I don't know. Because I know when we've just something to make you happy, like because I know when we have responded to people immediately afterwards, I'm like, I feel gross. Yeah. You know, like I don't feel good about that. It didn't. Oh my God. So, but you're like I don't feel good about that. It didn't. Oh my God.

So, but you're like, you have to do it literally in the moment, which I'm always like, oh, I cannot do that. Yeah, it's not the best. But I mean, trust me, you know. But it's part of the job. I was going to say it comes with the territory. Yeah, it does. It's also, I don't know.

I mean, like, I'm just thinking about the guy that does this. And I like, like, we get it. I you feel threatened, like, I understand. Because that's where it stems from. I'm trying to hit on your girlfriend. I don't know. I'm sorry, you feel that way. You bought her these girlfriend. I don't know, I'm sorry you feel that way. You bought her these tickets.

I'm confused. This says more about you guys than it does about me. Sure. Well, and just to take it back to your book really quick, because I loved your book. So good. I loved your book. I was laughing out loud.

And there was one thing that I just like couldn't stop thinking about. So it was the story that you were telling that you were walking through your neighborhood. I think it was like recently when you would written the book. Oh, yes. And you said somebody like yelled something really nasty at you. And I love that you're like, I just put a little bit of dog poop on their driveway. But then you talked about how you relayed that story to like, you know, your friends and some family. And like, it got easier to relay each time.

And then you wrote a joke about it. And you said you shared the story as a person first in a comic second. And I loved thinking about it that way because as like a fan of standup comedy, I've always kind of thought like, is that how jokes come about? Like does it, does it always evolve that way for you?

Is that kind of like a rare thing? No, I mean, you know, a lot of that. So yeah, that was a story about like, I got called a dike on the street in my neighborhood. And this is, I will speak on behalf of all stand-up comics. Some of whom might not even know that this is the best you can have. But I really believe that the reason that we do this job, there's an idea to this job,

is there was a time in my life when I didn't feel heard and I didn't feel safe when I was a goony kid. So I learned how to win people's acceptance and affection by making them laugh. And then also, it's a way of sort of pushing back on like societal injustice, but also like personal injustice that sort of hides the fact that the comic is hurt. Like we're hurt. We're just hurt people.

Everybody's hurt. Yeah. We're just hurt. And so the joke is hurt. Like we're hurt. We're just hurt people. Everybody's hurt. Yeah. We're just hurt. And so the joke is really like, here's how you've treated me. Here's how I want to be treated. This is often also why this is what, like, when, you know, the straight cis white dude is like, cancel culture is coming for me.

It's like, no, some of the stuff that's been hurting you is that other people now want space and you feel hurt that like a trans woman wants to be seen as a woman, that hurts you because you've had 100% of the power and now you feel threatened. Like you're showing yourself. Like the cancel culture, it's not that you're just receiving feedback that people think you actually still have more power than this person. And so anyway, I just say all of that to say that,

I think I just got to a place in my life where I was so good at using stand up to sort of like deflate my feelings of being hurt, but my friends didn't know the ways I had been hurt. My closest people didn't know the ways I had been hurt. I was taking it to the stage first, and I just kind of got to, it was after I made my special that was called rape jokes, and I had talked about an experience with sexual assault, and I invited a good friend of mine who afterwards was like, I didn't know this happened to you,

you know what I'm so sorry. And I don't regret making that special, but it was eye-opening to have a friend say, I didn't know this happened to you and I was like, and you're like, oh, I don't know why that is. Cause I never told you, right? I never told you as a person. No, no, first, yeah.

You know, like, yeah. So, you know, I just am, that just stopped feeling good. Like, I think, I think I, like, took this awesome and helpful coping mechanism, like, to the end of the road. And so it's like awesome. Like, I love that I have that skill and I, like, have run it into the ground. So let's develop some other skills so that not all of the pressure is in this area.

Yeah. I love that. So it kind of like evolved into it's like a coping mechanism. skills so that not all of the pressure is in this area. I love that. So it kind of like evolved into coping mechanism and then you found like a different one that works better. Exactly. Or you know, works in tandem, you know, like the stuff that we establish as kids. It's also, you know, I think it's like something about being, you know, your late 30s or this,

you know, it's like, I've been in the working world, I've been an adult for a while and, oh, this is the stuff I was doing, I don't necessarily want to be operating the same way that I was. Yeah, that makes total 20 years ago. Yeah, because if I was operating the same way that I was when I was 21 at 35,

I'd be questioning a lot of things. Even at 24 years old, somebody recently told me that I wasn't the same person I was when I was 21, and I was like, they kind of set it like an insult, and I was like, I hope you realize that's the biggest compliment ever because I don't wanna be.

You should have all of us if you would have. Like I'm great. Yeah, exactly, that's a positive thing. Like we don't wanna lay dormant at a certain age. That's not what we wanna do. If not, it's about like no. Right. We don't want to lay dormant at a certain age. That's not what we want to do. If not, it's about like no. Yeah. So it feels like it's kind of like cathartic to kind of do it that way to like get that story, get it to a place where you feel I think less like probably shattered by it, I assume, because that sounded like it was like a pretty terrible experience. Yeah. And then

being able to share it in a way that makes people laugh and makes you feel like you can talk about it now. Yeah, I think, you know, that is really what it is. It's, so I've always been using catharsis, but I have recently adopted intimacy, you know? Like I've always been, you sort of like blow all the dust off of it and like ring it dry of feelings, but recently added to the idea of share feelings and allow them to exist and swallow that.

Working together, it's really nice. Yeah, I love that. I feel happy. It's good. I find that way to do it. Extremely relatable too, like definitely. For sure, even though I'm not a standup comic. But there's that whole piece.

Yeah, open till that part. Yeah, we're just human. Yeah, that's fun. And then one last thing I just wanted to mention before we get into the case that we're going to talk about is I am a huge Gilmore girl's head. So in the book, when you mentioned mentioned that you came out to your mother over tuna fish sandwiches and that the whole scenario would have been so much better if you were Gilmore girls. I

died. I was like iconic moment. I was like, all right, we're one. I got it. It's like this is awesome. Absolutely. I just love it. Anything that can be signed off Amy Sherman, Paladino, and all four. Any experience in life. It just wraps everything nice out for me. So I feel like joy watching the re-release. I just want to ask you that one question. Oh my god. But how did they end it like that? I don't know. I'm like, I need another one. I like that. I don't know. I'm like, I need another one.

It was funny to me watching the, like, the, the, the new episodes, because I think I watched that show before I ever worked in Los Angeles. And when I watched that show when I was like a kid, I thought it looked like it was a real place. Like 100%. I had no concept of what a set was. And so I was like, I wonder where this is. And it was actually like stunning to watch it with high deaf television in, you know, 2019, whenever that was released

and be like, oh, oh my God. Wait, I've actually been here. I've been to a meeting here. You're like, is that perfect? What's going on town? This is fucking more of a studio on. Connecticut. You've been lying to me this whole time.

It's Connecticut with mountains in the background. And the mountains are like floating out of their hands because there's no actual coffee in them. And it was like, oh, yeah. There was so many things that were like, oh, okay. I let that go in the original air. Seriously. But it was, I need it back.

I need more, but Gilmurga also. When it ended, I was like, all right, I know it's Logan's but can we explore that a little bit because I hate you, Roy. I need to. So I hate you, Roy. We need to go further into this. So I guess building off of that too,

I feel like we have like a lot in common just like getting to know you like through your book and just through like things online. So we had to ask, are you a true crime or like paranormal fan? Like do you like the creepy weird stuff? Anything spooky? So here's a deal.

I am endlessly fascinated by both true crime and also horror movies. And I cannot watch them at all. Like I cannot watch. So I am really scared of everything. I'm truly afraid of the dark back person. But I'm interested. It's like that thing where it's like, if it's that scary to you, then it's like super interesting.

So I really need to talk to you about my method for watching scary things. Please do it. You're going to want to do it early in the morning. Subtitles on, sound off, listen to something else. Like some sort of soothing. Like, and yeah, spa music. Taylor Swift. So, I mean, scummy music is perfect.

Yeah. Prespoil yourself on all of the plot points, so that you know what to expect. And as you're reading through the synopsis, look up film stills. So you're looking at a picture of what's going to happen. You're reading what's going to happen. And then you're listening to something else because what's going to happen, you're reading what's going to happen, and then you're listening to something else

Because it's the music that gets you it is absolutely is every time if it's good This is my tried and true method for Engaging in this type of Material I love it. You have it down to a tee, down to a science even. I think it's brilliant to do the closed captions and not sound. Because it is like a horror movie, it's all about sound. Yeah, yeah, it's all about the music. When you said that, I was like, yes, yes. But that's kind of like I'm terrified of the ocean and all water. Like I'm terrified of it, but I am fascinated by the ocean and all water. Sure. So I get it. Yeah. Same thing.

I'm actually good with water. So really? You want to... Decomp. I was going to say I'm not in my cup. All right, cool. Dividing conquer. Yeah, exactly. We can explore the seas and watch horror movies together.

Exactly. It'll be wonderful. Well, It'll be wonderful. Well, I don't have any close captions for this case, so we're just going to have to horrify you in real time. Okay. However, I did pick a case that was like a little Hollywood-esque kind of, you know, bringing it back to Hollywood.

So, we're going to talk about Felmetod. Do you know anything about Felmetod at all? No, I've never heard this combination of names. I'm so excited. This combination of names, I love it. All right, so we're going to get into it then. So Felmetod was born in 1906 to parents Alice and John Todd. She was actually a Massachusetts girl who grew up in Lawrence, Massachusetts. What? Massachusetts? Look at that. Yeah. So Thelma had a really rocky childhood.

Her father was super, super distant. And when he wasn't being distant and ignoring her, he was being abusive to not only her, excuse me, not only to his wife, but also to Thelma as well. And he actually ended up leaving the family eventually because it wasn't working, I guess, and things were going really well. And he actually ended up leaving the family eventually because it wasn't working, I guess. And things were going really well. Things were going awry. So he decided to dip. But he dipped and things didn't really get that much better. Because Alice didn't really have a

knack for like choosing stand-up guys. She ended up bringing a lot of shady characters into Thelma's life. And the guys that she dated were all either abusives or abusives. Abusives were all either abusive or alcoholics and they still mistreated not only her but Felma too. So this was like a really rocky start. But somehow Felma pushed through everything. She was like a super driven girl, really smart and she actually had dreams to become a teacher someday.

So she finished high school and she went to the Lowell State Normal School, which Fun Fact is now UMass Lowell, which I used to... I've been there too. Same, I used to frequent UMass Lowell. Just make sure that it's all places I've been. Yeah, perfect. Me, I've been there. I've seen that building. Who knows if I paint? You never know. So she was at UMass. Well, what's now UMass? Well, excelling at her dream, she actually started her student teaching and it was clear that this was something that she was going to be really good at except her mom had different dreams for her daughter.

Because for most accounts, Alice was pretty manipulative and her dream was to be a stage mama, which I feel like we all know somebody like that a little bit. She saw this star power in Thelma. She wanted Thelma to compete in pageants and was like, this is gonna take you so many places. So Thelma was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'll do the pageants, but like I'm gonna be teaching as well

and like working on my schooling. I think it's really important to force your dreams on your children. Yeah, live by curious, like through them. Absolutely. It won't do any damage. Especially in like a Lawrence and Loll. Yeah.

Type of a place. Like I'm friendly. Like isn't super familiar. I think of those as like, you know, they're more of like a, you know, like what's the word call of a sort of a vibe. Yeah, a vibe. Yeah, lesser like a broadway sort of a vibe. Yeah, it's like light and glitz are not what you think of. Yeah, not exactly.

Not over at UMass Lull. No. But Felma was really good at, like I said, she was really good at teaching, but she was also amazing at the pageants. And she kind of just succeeded at both while she was doing everything. And I feel like that's because she's a Leo, and Leo's a really passionate and like super consistent, so it's not surprising. Look at that. She actually ended up winning the title of Miss Massachusetts in 1925, so we're going

places. And then she went on to compete in the Miss America pageant, which is like big deal for little Laurence girl. It's nationwide, one might say. Yeah, you know, which also existed in 1925. I don't know that. I don't know anything about Miss America. I guess so neither did I. When did this start? Apparently in 1925 But unfortunately, Thelma didn't hang out there that long. She lost to Miss California. How many states were there? How many states were there at this time? Oh my god, I should have Googled that.

Who could see that? You Googled that on the back end. Confedient. I'm this. Seriously. Well, Thelma competed. She did not win. Miss California won.

However, there were Hollywood scouts at this pageant, and they were working for Paramount. And they were looking for young actresses to send to the school, the Paramount School for Stars, and they saw Felma, she caught their eye, and they were like, she would be perfect at this, but there is one problem. She's like, in their opinion,

she had a weight problem, and she was gonna have to watch her weight, which if you look at pictures of her, she absolutely did not have a weight problem. This was just have to watch her weight. Which if you look at pictures of her, she absolutely did not have a weight problem. This was just like the beginning of Hollywood. I was gonna say that's just gross. Yeah. Oh my God, that's funny.

This is that time when like a studio owns you. When the different movie studios are like contracting and investing in actors. Like the marrow effect like giving you that feedback because I mean, first of all, fuck them, but also exactly because they're like, then you're like in their stable of horses. Right, right, exactly.

You're like an investment to them. And just wait, you just describe that perfectly because once we get into this, you're gonna be like, yep, yep, that checked out. There it is. So she was off to LA, they discovered her, she was ready to go. She left her dreams of being a teacher back in mass,

and she was excited to start something new. So she immediately met with Hal Roach, who at the time was the head of Paramount Pictures, and Hal agreed, he saw like star potential in her, she was like, she's beautiful, but I do agree, I think her weight might be a problem, but no worries. He had an easy fix for that. He put this clause into her contract called the potato clause.

And this clause said that she could not gain more than five pounds or she would be fired as soon as humanly possible. What's the potato? The potato claws. I guess she like couldn't eat potatoes because they make you fat. Potatoes will do that again. Where does the potato come from?

Is the potato claw. I was imagining that the potato weighs five pounds. But they go, okay, that's good. And a potato. And you can't. And that's the hero. Such a big potato. It's just one of those huge potato.'s just one of those state farm potatoes.

Like in a word winning potato. State fair potato. It was at the Idaho State Fair, exactly. If I had a potato clause, it would be like everywhere I go. Needs to have potatoes. Yeah. For me to eat a zillion per cent. That's my potato clause.

I eat potatoes every single day. Now I think about like probably every single day. I wouldn't have been a good thelma Todd. So here's my question also because this is also a time when like and I just gonna predict what happened, but go ahead and see like give her drugs, right? Oh my god. I do. I feel like you have my script in front of you. It's like the Marilyn Monroe thing, I say again. Yes, I echo. But unfortunately, that was like a perfect transition,

by the way, thank you, because this healthy work environment was being aided by Alice, Thelma's mother, and Alice was the one who quickly got to work getting Thelma a prescription for diet pills. Which good mom does. Back then was essentially just cocaine or like some kind of infetamine, yes, exactly.

And we're off. This was not like a neutral system kind of thing. It was a little different. So she quickly, quickly got hooked on the infetamines, unfortunately. And she basically struggled with the addiction for the rest of her life, which is really sad because it's not really what she signed up.

I mean, I guess, well, no, that's not what she signed up for. I was gonna say, it's not really what she said up for. No, at all. So even though she never set out to act, she wasn't natural at it, even while on infetimines. And Hal really wanted to make a female version of Laurel and Hardy. So he came up with the idea to cast Thelma alongside a woman called Zazu Pits, who was like

really, really famous at the time. Zazu. Yeah, I love that name. Zazu. That's just like a cool name. You gotta be famous with that name. Honestly. That's a great name.

Yeah. Zazu Pits, seriously. Get out of here. So yeah, he wanted them to be like a female Laurel and Hardy, so he would have them work in these comedy shorts together. And they made a really great pair, but eventually, Zou moved on because she had an amazing name, so she could really go places. And she was replaced by a woman called Patti Kelly, which I'm like, are we distant relatives? Because that's my last name, perhaps.

And it didn't really matter who Thelma was working with because she just had this natural talent and star power. And in fact, when she first started acting, all of her roles were in silent films, which in shorts like that, but over the course of her career, she started doing more talkies as what they called them back in the day, which were just movies where you could speak and everyone would hear you. You have to be so expressive to be in a silent movie. I know your face has to do like all the work for you.

Yeah. So funny. Yeah. You need good eyebrows. Well, how helpful to be on speed. You know? There it is. Boom.

Yeah. Really make those face muscles work. So she ended up acting in actually over 120 movies and shorts throughout her career. People just couldn't get enough of her. They, like America loved her. They called her the ice cream blonde and hot toddy, which I love.

That's what I call you. Hot toddy, hot toddy. That's news to me. Yeah. I call it behind your back. That doesn't even sound like an insult. I'm here for it. Thanks.

A compliment. Thanks. Just don't want your head to get too big. That's true. And I do have a big head too, so I make a bigger. So in 1931, film a man named Roland West on the set of a movie called Corsair. Roland was directing the film, and obviously,

Thelma was acting in it. But he had convinced her to act under this stage name of Alison Lloyd, which when your name is Thelma Todd, I don't know why you would then go to Alison Lloyd, but he in his mind, this was Thelma's first dramatic role and he was worried that because she was so well known for comedy, having like Thelma Todd in a drama wouldn't work. And like wouldn't be good for the film, wouldn't be good for the film.

But it was fine for the film, and she never used that name and anything ever again. She was just Felmetod. Like, Felma's a silly guy on the name. That's what it does. So even though he wanted her to change. I think that's exactly... Oh, no, go ahead.

Oh, that's exactly the opposite of... of how I view things. It's like when you see Kristen Wigg in a movie and she's really good at, and she has her drama chops, you're like shit. Exactly. Multi-faceted thing. Oh, yeah. That's always my favorite.

Seriously, but apparently it wasn't Roland's favorite. Now, even though he tried to change her name, they really hit it off. I don't think I would hit it off with somebody that wanted to change her name, they really hit it off. I don't think I would hit it off with somebody that wanted to change my name, but to each their own. That's it. You know. And I'm not for Roland, but who am I? That was only like one problem.

The other problem was that he was hella married. He had a whole last wife. And he was also, which like, it doesn't really matter now, but at the time everyone was like, well, he's so much older than you. Like, that's not acceptable. So he was married older than her and he didn't like her name. Three strikes. Yeah. Now, a lot of people point out that it seemed like, oh, God. Yeah, right? Right?

Like, oh, no. And what's going to happen? I know. And everyone pointed out, like, this kind of relationship was doomed from the start because of all of the reasons that I previously stated because of everything because of that laundry list over there But Felma was always kind of looking for that like father-like figure that she and Missed Out on as a child in her now in her adult life But she was really good at picking these people as we will come to see. Oh, yeah. And actually there was a movie about her life and death called White Hot, which I have yet to watch, but I want to watch it. White Hot. And one of the producers,

his name was Frank von Zernek. He said about her quote, she was drawn to men who were extremely dangerous. That was her Achilles heel. Playing with fire was a personality problem. She was abused and manhandled and ultimately we think it cost her her life. Is this such a feel-good tale? I know. But yeah, so that's really sad. But I feel like this is, I feel like this is the vibe though. For me it's like I still think this is what we're working with, right? Like this is, it's the tale from then and it's like, anytime, I'll tell you what really

like upsets me is when I see an actor who has had some, a woman who has had some level of success and then gets very thin. Like she's like, Ben Young and successful and then she has like this extreme thin period. That like really, I mean, I'm somebody who has previously had a needing disorder. And so, first of all, it's just like visually triggering for me, but also just to see that I'm like, oh no, like what is being told to this person? Yeah. So anyway, it's to be said, it's still a great fact. It's one thing that when I see that, I'm like, oh, we are still in that zone.

And obviously there's a million other examples. But that's one that really makes me, I feel so nauseated. I know. Because it's right in front of your face. That's one of those, because you can't see a lot of what's happening obviously behind the scenes. Right.

But that's so visual right in front of your face that you're like something is happening here. Well, in that's so like visual right in front of your face that you're like something. It is happening here. Well in Hollywood's version of Fat is just, I'm like, oh God, I will never step foot there. Like, oh, you know, like they thought, I, when you were talking about that in the beginning, like how you're saying like that bothers you so much,

I thought of Brittany Murphy. Yes, it's so absurd. It is. And she had that like period, obviously she had a lot of like troubling things going on. But she had that period, obviously she had a lot of troubling things going on. But she had that period where it was really scary how much weight she had lost. Absolutely. Oh no, people are telling you this at all angles I bet and that's horrible.

And actually I think her mom helped her get on diet pills too. Yeah, because we covered her. Yeah, weird parallel. Weird. But yeah, so Thelma was really going through her time. She was not good at picking men. The men in her life were just mean to her anyways. And one of those men was Pascal Pat.

I believe it's De Chico, or I'm going to say, maybe De CCO. Is he a bad guy? He is a bad guy. Yeah, actually later was Mary Tug. Is it a C? Yes. He is a bad guy. He actually later was married to a sea. Is it a sea or is it a CH? It is a sea.

So it's DI capital CICCO. So I think it's Dichico. Yeah, or like Dichico, I mean, Dichico, something like that. He's Italian. The CH is Caw. And the C is C. Huh. Yeah. I'll bring it in my tail and C's Cha. Huh, yeah. I'll bring it in my towel.

Look at that. That was helpful. I feel like we'll call him Pat so that we don't get confused. We should have had the little like star go by. That's what they're for. For more, you know. I know, right? Tying.

But he was actually later married to Gloria Vanderbilt and had like a very tumultuous relationship with her. He was from New York. And a super wow. Interested crew person. That's what I got out of that. Exactly. Exactly.

I heard that was the best thing that came out of that. But he was from New York and he met Felma when he moved to LA in hopes of pursuing acting himself or a career as an agent. Now, he was really super shady. He was involved in like a lot of illegal dealings. There were a lot of rumors surrounding him that he had ties to the mafia, so just to kind of give you a picture of what he was doing.

And Thelma didn't know that yet, obviously. So in 1932, she ran off to Arizona and like, loped with this punk. As one does, obviously. He was the kind of guy that drank too much. And by this point, Thelma was drinking a lot too. She was at this point struggling with alcohol as well. Their marriage right off the bat was like super tumultuous, very violent.

Pat would beat Thelma so badly that she once was rushed to, excuse me, rushed to the hospital for an appendectomy, which was like, that's just like nuts to me, like how did he affect your appendix? Oh, yeah. And then on another occasion, she may or may not have broken his nose in a fight. So, really loving relationship. Wow. Yep.

They divorced only after two years in in 1934 and Thelma actually told the judge in code that Pat was very abusive. She was like he does he mistreats me in front of like our guests And I guess back then that was code for like he mistreats me all the time. Oh my god, because she couldn't say it allowed Yeah, like you I guess like for your image. Yeah, even though it's nothing that you've done wrong Yeah, I guess for your image, even though it's nothing that you've done wrong. But so it was then that felmus war that she was never going to drink again. Like she was like, as soon as I'm out of this,

I'm not drinking, I'm gonna get clean and sober. And it was good for her, but Pat's kind of seemed to hang on to the idea that he and Felma were gonna figure things out someday, which is boiler alert, they did not. I was gonna say no Pat. And then he might glory of Vanderbilt. And then Anderson Cooper came. Yeah.

Exactly. The end. That's it. And we're done. That's the story. No, we're going to get back to Roland, of course. So Roland West was actually one of the constants in Thelma's life. So when she left Pat, she went right back to him.

And Roland wasn't really feeling his whole like director's life anymore, and he was kind of in search of a new project. Selma was just coming down from the divorce, and she needed something that distract herself too, aside from acting. So together, they decided to open up a restaurant. And it was right along the Pacific Coast Highway, and they decided to call it

Felmetod's Sidewalk Cafe. And the building still exists today. I wonder where it is. What town is it in, you know? Um, yes, I do. I have it written down later in here. I wanna say it's one of the Santos. It's one of the Santos.

I'm gonna look it up in real time. Santa Monica. Hold on, I think it is Santa Monica. It's like a way deep down here. I'm looking at it up in real time. Santa Monica. Hold on, I think it is Santa Monica. It's like way deep down here. I'm looking at it. We're finding it, we're finding it. So it's Pacific palisades. Ah, you got it.

It's like I'm from Massachusetts. I'm sorry. I know what that means. Right north of Santa Monica. There you go. Okay, perfect. I think you were right. I think it is Santa Monica.

So there was a Santa in there. There was a Santa. I told you guys. Hold on, I'm just scrolling back up now. I told you. I told you. So yes, so think it is Santa. So there was a Santa in there. There was a Santa, I told you guys. Well, I'm just scrolling back up now. Told ya. I told ya. So yes, so they opened that up, they called it Felmontod sidewalk cafe.

And you said it was, it's still there. The building is still there, yes. That's cool. But don't forget, Roland was still married to his wife, Jewel Carmen. And that Jewel ended up becoming a business partner to the two of them, which is probably the world's wildest trio to open a restaurant together right now.

Get it? Yeah. No issues will come of that. It was quite a setup, but it worked. And then most sources that I read said that Joule was fully aware that Felma and Roland were getting it on together, but she just looked the other way. All right. Yeah. All said that Joule was fully aware that Felma and Roland were like getting it on together, but she just kind of looked the other way. All right, yeah, all right, Joule.

Get it, Joule, whatever works for you. Yeah. So Felma's Hollywood circle came out to support her business and at the beginning, it did incredibly well. The menu was super extensive. There was kind of something for everyone. I found this advertisement from back in the day for the restaurant and it said, quote,

Thalmaton sidewalk cafe serving a long island shore dinner, fish with Allison sauce, unequaled. French Italian dinner, pancake, sousette, unsurpassed, the reason from the Savoy London and the Crayon Paris Camsar chef. Fancy. So they got a fancy chef. Wait, I have French having. It's a big mess, it's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess.

It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess.

It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess.

It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a big mess. It's a a name, Allison. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a weird thing. It's so much. Like the name of the place is Selmeton's roadside cafe, and they have Allison sauce on the menu. You know, for old times sake, just sometimes we have that on the menu. But at the menu, when I was reading it,

like just even in that little blurb, I was like, there's so many things at this restaurant that just like don't really go to get there, but okay, pancakes, there was reading it, like just even in that little blurb, I was like, there's so many things at this restaurant that just like don't really go together, but okay. Pancakes, there was French cuisine, I was like, wow. The world truly is something for everyone. Yeah. And this property is actually like a really big property.

And the whole layout became really important later on. So let's kind of talk about that a little bit. Let's do it. Let's do it. So the restaurant itself was street level. And that's where most of the elite stars would come to Dine. The restaurant also had a second floor, which was private, and it was called Yoya's room. And it was more of like a nightclub vibe, where people could dance, but also grab a drink, something to eat, but it was like a little more

lively than the downstairs. And then upstairs, and like a separate part, Selma had an apartment. And even the Rollins house was kind of nearby, just like a little like drive up the hill. He would also stay in the apartment a lot with Selma. He had his own room, but like I don't really think he used it that much. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and assume I'm going to make an asset of you and me and assume. So they were getting it on the low, but like really not even on the low. Getting it on the medium.

On the high. Yeah, absolutely. On the third floor. So his house was literally like right at the top of the hill and then the restaurant is underneath, but he stays in the apartment all the time with Alma. And Jewel is just like at their beautiful mansion. I mean, I guess if it doesn't bother her,

she's like, I'll just stand in the mansion. I'm done, right? I'll take this mansion to myself. I have fun in that third story apartment of her restaurant. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God, you two, look, I did something

that maybe I'm not supposed to be doing while I'm listening, which is that I looked up this place because I do it every time. So the two go ahead. You might it every time. So the Pacific Coast. You may not know this, but the Pacific Coast Highway goes right on the Pacific Coast. So if you're driving to go to the beach, say, for instance, and you're not going to Orange County,

if you're trying to go from where I live, I live way far on the east side of LA. And way far in the west side of LA, those things are, it's like not the same community at all. It's not the same vibe, it's not the same type of people. But the way to go to the beaches, the Pacific Coast Highway runs along San Monica, the Pacific Palisades Malibu. And so you, and then all the way up to like Santa Barbara, and then all the way up like further. Like it runs along the coast.

So in it's the one road. Like it's like there's a road, there's maybe a parking lot in some places and then there's like beach ocean. Oh wow. And so anyway, if I was like, if this place still exists, I mean this is to go to Malibu to go to,

like I've driven past this place as Zillian Times. So, that's so funny. So, that's so funny. And I'm like sure I've seen this building. It's like a very distinct building. It's like Spanish style. Spanish.

Yeah, I'm looking at it now. Oh, yeah. Anyway, now I will know in fuchs when I drive past that. Yes, exactly. And you'll think of us. Like, everybody that lives in LA has driven on this road. It's like the road you drive. Yeah, so you had to have passed by it.

It was Thelma's road at one point, everyone. It was Thelma. Never forget. That's so cool though. I didn't even realize it was like the like main, main road. Yeah. The main, main beach road. Yes.

Love that. Love that. So, yeah, so they were, they had their restaurant, their upstairs, downstairs, live in their lives together. And then even though he was married, Roland was like super jealous when it came to Felma going out and meeting new people. I'm shocked.

Which is so shocking, but it's so wild. Wow. So ridiculous. It could blow me over when it's out there. You have a whole last wife over there and I can't go out with Tom from down the street. Why not? I know.

Seems like a double standard. You would think Roman would be logical. Yeah, he was not. He was actually the part of this thing, and we'll see that. Because such was the case on December 14th, when Phelma headed out to a party being held at the Trocadero Cafe in her honor.

Now, the party was being put on by a man named Stanley Lupito, who had starred in the film, you made me love you alongside Felma. Now, Rowan told Felma that he was locking the apartment door at 2 a.m., so she better be home right then or before then. And she was like, okay, like screw you, I'll see you at 205. Like literally told to him, I will see you at 205.

I love to get out of here. Wow, wow. She was sassy. She was like, you're not gonna lock me out. Start off the night, right? Yeah, they argued a lot. They were, they were really arguing a lot. So her driver, Ernie Peters,

which I just think Ernie is the cutest name ever, picked her up and off to the party she went. She was dressed to the 9s. She was wearing a metallic silvery blue evening gown, which was completely sequined. Ooh. A full length mint coat, which we're not gonna talk about. I'm not off.

Not so great. I'm so okay. Blue silk slippers, which I'm like silk slippers, like, oh, you're so decadent. And then she was dripping in like a modest $20, oh, you're so decadent. And then she was dripping and like a modest $20,000 worth of jewelry, which also included diamond hair clasps, like diamonds in your hair.

Slept. This is in what year? This is $1,000 worth of jewelry? It had in the 30s. Damn. Wild. That was a time when money was a thing. Money was wild to back.

Money was having a moment. And she's like, I'm just going to a party and I need to put my diamonds in my hair and someone helped me with that. She dripping. Dripping and everything. So people said that at the party she was happy and cheerful

probably because she had $20,000 worth of jewelry on. I would be right. Some people claimed that she had some drinks, but she didn't seem drunk at all. And I've seen different accounts about this, but most sources say that Pat was there, her ex-husband, and he had been asked to be seated next to Thelma, but then to kind of like embarrass her, he didn't sit next to her and he went to a different table and was chatting it up with like this up and coming well-known actress at the time. Oh, fuck off Pat. Yeah, he was like basically just like dick move.

Oh, I know. So this obviously made Thelma mad. They got into a bit of a heated exchange. Some sources say. Now other sources say that they didn't talk at all and that Pat wasn't even a guest at that particular party that night. He just happened to be at the Trocadero and like a different part of the bar. I love eyewitness accounts.

My favorite thing ever. He was there. No, he wasn't. Like he was there and they fought. They danced. They made love. They got married. And then the next one, it's like, he wasn't even there.

He literally wasn't even there. All right. Well, here's the thing. Either way, he definitely was there. It's just a matter of whether or not he and Thelma had a fight. But most sources say that they got until like a little tip at that party. I would believe it. I think so.

They'd seem to tip whenever they saw each other. So Thelma was said to have asked a friend to call Roland and let him know that she would be on her way home soon. Now this was around 1.50 AM. So unless she's gonna get home in 10 minutes, that door is gonna be locked. Uh-oh. And now, really, she didn't end up leaving the party

until a quarter after three in the morning. The door's definitely locked. To which I say like, party sis. Love that for you. Yeah. That's the time my youngest wakes me up in the morning actually. Yeah, that's actually very that's where I am in my party, right? Party till three. Wake up at three. Yeah, so she definitely was not going to make it home to an unlocked door. And Stanley Lupino actually said later that the two of them got to talking about an idea that Felma had for a movie, one that she told him

she fully owned the rights to and really wanted to work on with him. And he fully expected to talk to her about it the coming weekend and he was super excited to kind of get this rolling. And with that, she headed home off to bed at 4 a.m. So on the way home, her driver said that she was unusually quiet. She was usually really chatty.

And he also said that she asked him to drive as fast as he could because she was worried about gangsters in the area. Interest. Which I love that that was like a thing in action. Usually you're worried about a skunk in the middle of the night. Yeah, or that somebody's following you. She's just worried about gangsters in the area. I'm worried about like coyotes. Which she meant like mobsters, of the night. Yeah, or that somebody's following you. She's just worried about gangsters in the area. I'm worried about like coyotes.

Which she meant like, she meant like mobsters, by the way. Yeah. So when they got back to Thelma's place, it was about a quarter to four in the morning. And Ernie offered to walk her to the door. He always used to walk her to the door. Like there was never a night that he didn't. But on this particular night, she said,

no, it's okay, like I'll just walk upstairs by myself, which she was like, it was weird that she did that because she had never done that, but I wasn't gonna argue with her because he like couldn't. And she was worried about gangsters in the area. You know, worried about gangsters, but then doesn't wanna be walked to her own front door.

Oh, weird. So she got out of the car, she walked up to the apartment, and that was the last time anybody saw a film at all alive. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. So no one is really sure what happened. I can't stop thinking about how cold it must have been.

I guess. Maybe that's the wrong thing to bring in here. No, it's not. It's not that beachfront property at four o'clock in the morning, that's chilly. That is chilly. And that was very cold. That was something else.

Slippers, those are not staying warm. That's it. She's getting ice cold feet. Yeah, that's pretty. Did you have a mink? Was it a coat? She had a mink floor-length coat on, so she was probably pretty warm, but you're right, because they pointed out

how cold it was and how we'll get into it in a sec of where she's found. They're like, okay, maybe we'll get into it. She definitely got cold toes. We know that. Yeah, those silk slippers. Yep. Yes.

And all the diamonds. Oh, yes. All that ice. All that ice. So it's so icy. It took a minute for that to click in my head. I was like, the diamonds are actually cold. By those diamonds, cold.

I'm not, I'm not always quick on the, on the, you know, anyways. We love you anyway. So, so yes, he was the last person to see her alive other than maybe the person that killed her. So what, I lost my place. No one is really sure what happened between Thelma's arrival, home,

and the Monday morning of December 16th. Because when Thelma was found dead that day, she was behind the wheel of her car, which she like loved, loved, loved her car. It was a 1932 Lincoln Faiton or Faiton, and there are tons of theories as to how she ended up there. Now, it's funny that you said that it was super cold because one of the main theories

is that she was super cold, locked out of the apartment, so went to the garage and got in the car to stay warm. And they were like, maybe she turned the car on and she ended up getting like carbon monoxide poisoning and that's how she died. But there's so much more weird stuff that it doesn't sound like that happened. Other than maybe she was cold and went up to the garage. I think that's just using the like locked apartment theory. Yeah.

And just being like, yep, that's what it was. Exactly. But there was more to this. So a woman named Mae Whitehead was actually Thelma's maid and housekeeper. And she had been for quite some time. And she was set in her daily routine. The routine started with her driving her own car up to the garage. And the garage was right below where Roland and Jules mansion was. And like, kind of adjacent to the restaurant and where Thelma lived. And all three business owners kept their car there and it was known that they always kept it unlocked and they always kept their keys to the cars in the ignition, which doesn't

seem like a really last safe, yeah, yeah, super safe. Who needs a lock? Not me. We all do that. Yeah, so her safe time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Mae's routine is that she would park her own car there. And then she would drive Thelma's car down to the cafe, so it was right there.

Thelma needed to go anywhere. So this morning, when she walked over to the car, she was, she walked over to the passenger side because she was going to be putting like some clothes in the car and like the passenger seat. But when she opened the door, she saw Thelma in the car. She walked over to the passenger side because she was going to be putting like some clothes in the car and like the passenger seat. But when she opened the door, she saw a felma in the car and she thought at first that she was sleeping and she was like kind, the felma was kind of slumped over in the driver's seat and her head was facing to the left. So away from me at that point. But then she kind of got a closer look and it was clear that this 29 year old actress was dead. And just as quickly as she came to that realization,

she also realized that there was a small amount of blood pooled under Felma's nose. Mm, a little weird. A little weird, little weird. Strange. So she's terrified, she's super upset. So she runs down to the cafe to find somebody to help her and the restaurant's

treasure was there. And when they explained what she had just found, like stumbled upon, the man who was working at the cafe called Roland upstairs, who was a sleep in the apartment. And true to his word, Roland had locked the doors to the apartment that night that Felma had gone to the party. And now he was feeling like a huge sting of regret. Like this happened because I locked her out because it's like you just went to sleep just didn't care what happened. And it was something that he had done like a lot. Like she was known to get locked out of the apartment. He's quite a guy.

Yeah, he sucks. So he's like feeling super regretful. He's like obviously this is my fault. And because that's the other thing. So he's like feeling super regretful. He's like, obviously, this is my fault. And because that's the other thing. So this is Monday morning. That party had been on Saturday night. So something had happened on Saturday night. And then she had just been sitting there.

And they knew that because she was still dressed in her party clothes when they found her. Oh, damn. So eventual, I mean, so glamorous. I was gonna say, I hate to say this, but like what an outfit to go with. Yeah.

You know? So, if you had to choose, I would definitely be yours. If I had to choose, I would be wearing exactly that. Exactly. Well, and so, and everything was still there? I was just gonna say,

yes, all the jewels were still there. So, this was not like a robbery or something like that gone wrong. That was like a super weird thing for them too. So eventually everyone is showing up to this place. The police, there's a doctor, there's another couple who worked at the restaurant. There's reporters.

Alina was there. I was in the doctor over here. Yeah. Everyone was telling a call to doctor and somebody's been dead for two days. They were like, hey, you got something for ya. Do you have a cure? You have some fix.

Friendy notes. Oh man, let's go. Yikes. Do you have some for breeze? That's just the only question that you ask in that moment. Unfortunately. Oh no, it was December, so it was cold. It was cold.

Well, California. For the night time. I should say. It would be freezing. I'm telling you, it would be so cold. Because I'm thinking Massachusetts is cold. Yeah, but overnight, so right, Califord, so Los Angeles is the desert.

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Like it dips down way cold in the night. Right. And then especially if you're beachfront, like, I, I, I, I, for some reason I just can't, I, when you were initially like, he's gonna lock her out to him,

I'm like, this is a terrible situation because she's me so chilly. Like I'm not gonna ask you now. I'm just like, this is like, sound so cold. Like, she really, she really, sounds very uncomfortable. You could, you could, I have exposure. Oh, for sure.

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely, especially in that outfit. I mean, minus the coat, but I mean, that's still in it. Yeah, what's that thing? Paradoxial undressing, that can happen. Yeah, that can start happening, you start getting naked.

What is that? That's a thing like the diet love pass. I know what it is. You get like hypothermia and you start like tricking yourself into thinking that you start taking your things off. Your brain like thinks that you're hot and you're actually completely freezing and then you're even more freezing. And then you're found nude.

Yeah, and then it confuses everybody like the diet love fest. It's an incident where they were like, why did they make it on this random Siberian mountain? Yeah, it's an embarrassing way to go. It's rough, it's rough. Not awesome. Wouldn't she, is it?

I mean, Slash, what have you been working on your bod? That's true. That would be great. Right now, like quarantine? Pandemic life, not a good time to be found. Don't want to be found paradoxically undressed. So yeah. Give me a few more months.

Don't find yourself paradoxically undressed in any situation. No, thank you. So everybody is there at this crime scene. The reporters are trying to take pics. Like, friends are showing up because word is spreading around town. In fact, one of Thelma's friends was actually in line at the bank, and he heard the news that this was all going on.

And the sweet man rushed to her mother's house and picked up her mom and got her and told her before, like, a reporter called her. He was like, I just wanted to get there before a reporter called. Aww. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh before a reporter called. Aw, what a joke seconds. Oh my god. Oh my god.

Yeah. So now the mom is there. And she immediately said, my daughter, so here's the other thing. Most people say that she immediately was like, my daughter has been murdered and then like walked out of the room like it was like a mystery game event. Oh my god.

But later on, she said that she never said that. But everybody that said she did was like, nope, keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that.

I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that.

I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I'm not gonna keep on doing that. I murdered the moida, I tell you. Growing the boa over her shoulder and walking away. She actually just takes the main coat off of her body and walks away. And it's walks away.

She's like, I'm gonna go now. So the blood under the nose, I get that. But like this, this doesn't feel like a murder. What tell me what else makes it feel like a murder? We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Because it's like someone is cold and got in the cold. Like an accident.

And they're unlocked, he's in the ignition. Yes. Also, wait a minute. Hang on a murder. We'll get to that. Because you feel like someone is cold and got in the car. Like an accident. And they're unlocked. He's in the ignition. Yes. Also, wait a minute. Hang on a second. If the keys are in the ignition, why didn't she just drive her ass somewhere? Correct.

Exactly. I don't want to tell. You're asking the holiday and the burning questions. Yeah. I like go up to Jules. Jules likes you. Thank God friends. Yeah.

She's got friends. Yes. Oh, Ben. Yeah. You'd say hello to Jules. You'd be like, hey Jules, you, my good friends. Yeah, she got friends. Yeah, it's sad. Oh, yeah. You'd say hello to Jules. You'd be like, hey, Jules, you know how rolling this. And I stay here. And you know your husband, my, no, my guys. He walked me out.

Yeah. So the manager of the cafe shows up Rudy Schaefer. And he later said, so two people noticed the blood under her nose. And the first was May, and then the second was Roland Roland and they said there was a small amount pulled underneath her nose. Rudy Shaffer begs to differ. He said that he noticed blood on Felma's face as well as the bottom of her nose and said it spread all the way down to her mouth but looked like it had been wiped up by a hanker chief or something. Hmm. So, who knows?

Oh, it's smeared. Yeah, it's smeared. So, that wasn't the only weird things surrounding Thelma's death, because for one thing, when she was discovered, the car was running. So, whatever happened to her,

like I said, presumably went down like a day and a half before when she'd gotten home from the party. So, the car is running, but there's still two and a half gallons of gas in the car, a day and a half later. Ooh, which is weird. Well, I don't, I mean, what's the, what are cars like?

I was gonna say, they forecast, what's the fuel efficiency cars. What cars? What does a car do? How does a car use gas? I feel like back then, too. The other thing is that they like, I feel like they wouldn't have been that good, you know?

I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know what the fuel efficiency of a Lincoln Payton, Fushia Palschera, or, well, back in the 20 or the 30. You know, I can't say that I looked that up because cars start really interested me. I should ask for a group, my boyfriend, but I go ask for a group. I'll ask him when I get home and I'll report back later.

But I think that's super weird. A day and a half later to have two and a half gallons in the car, and then here's what's weirder. How is the car even running? Because the battery was completely discharged when they discovered it. Huh. Wait, what?

The battery was discharged. How is the car even running? No, exactly. Wait, what? The battery was discharged. How is the car even running? No, exactly. Does it have a car needs a battery, correct? I think I know that at least. I know I have a battery in mind. I think there's one in mind.

Yeah, that's great. There's so many crank in the engine. Hand crank? It's so weird. I'm talking about it. I'm like, how does this work? Like the battery. Talking about it. Like how does this work? Like the battery. Was the battery not there?

It was just not charged. It was discharged. Discharged so. So there but a stray. Like the car's running, they open the hood. They go. The battery, like, I don't get it. What are you talking about? I don't get it either. It makes no sense. Like the car, they go. The battery, like, I don't get it. What are you talking about?

I don't get it either. It makes no sense. Like the car's definitely running. They open that hood, then they're like, it shouldn't be running. It doesn't make any sense. A ghost is running this car. Yeah, there's nothing that should work with this car.

No, no, no. So super-duty. So now it's paranormal. Yes, now it is paranormal. It should just got real weird. Now here is where it's going to get even weirder though, because the strangest thing about this entire thing is that people in Thelma's life were reporting that they had either seen

or heard from her that Sunday afternoon, when the coroner reported that she most likely died very early on Sunday morning between 5 and 8 a.m. Get that's weird. I'm dead serious. And it's- What do you mean heard from? Okay, so I'll give you the account.

So, Joel Carmann, Rollins wife there, said that she had seen Felma on Sunday afternoon. In the passenger seat of a car being driven by a man she didn't recognize, and Felma was wearing a hat. I don't know about Joel's. That's not Felma. That's not Felma. Can we hat. I don't know about you. That's what Felma was. That's not Felma.

Can we say that one? We can say. We can scratch that one off. We can scratch that off. I think Jewel was lying. The police also thought she was lying. I wouldn't take Jewel's words. No.

The police were like, we don't really want to talk to you. Or Jewel's fine. And so here's the other thing though. This one is really, really weird. So Felma had also reportedly spoken with her friend Martha Ford on Sunday afternoon and was planning to go to a party at Martha's later that night with a mystery guest.

Felma herself, like said, you are all gonna die like when you see who I show up with. I don't want Reaper. Yes, you're all gonna die. The Grim Reaper is here with me. Ultimate entrance. That's the ultimate. And Martha said she was like, they were like, okay, did somebody else call you? Like that new that she was dead

and was just trying to mess with the time. And she was like, no, that was Thelma. I spoke to Thelma, I know I did. So you never find out who the mystery guest was or anything. Oh, that's gonna kill me. So immediately. I know, I wanna know who the mystery guest was or anything. Oh, that's going to kill me. So immediately. I know, I want to know who the guest is.

It's a battery. It's the battery, yes. So immediately people start remembering that actually right before Thelma's death, like a couple months previous, and around the same time that she opened the cafe with Roland, she started getting super threatening letters from different people who were clearly after her money and the cafe.

And the letter said things like, we will wreck that Santa Monica cafe, of yours. So yes, you were right, Santa Monica. Oh, there you go. And quote, our San Francisco boys will lay you out. Ooh, which I don't even, I don't even understand. That's so spicy. I feel like everybody was like, we are gonna get ya.

Fuck them. So now, okay, so, some, but not all of the letters were traced to a man named Harry Shamancki and he was from before. I knew it was Harry Shamancki. It's always Harry Shamancki. It's always him. And he was arrested.

So he was behind bars at the time that she was murdered. So it wasn't him. And now the letters that weren't attributed to Harry were most likely, not like totally confirmed, but most likely from this other guy named Edward Schiffer, who was a fan of Thelmas, but he kind of thought like he got in his mind that they were involved in a relationship together, but like they definitely weren't. He got a little like, you know, got a little attached. We got Rebecca Schaefer kind of situation. It's so funny that you said that,

that's exactly what I was thinking of. Yes, that's scary. It is scary. And he was later actually committed. So both of these men were behind bars at the time that she died. So it's neither of these men that sent scary letters. But in my mind, and the more we get into this,

you'll see why I think this. I think some of those letters, like especially the one that said, like our San Francisco boys will lay you out, had mob ties. Yeah. Because number one, that's like a very mobish thing to say. Number two, she's afraid of like the gangsters in the area.

And then we'll get into like more of the mob stuff, like a little bit toward the end. So there were a few main suspects surrounding Felma's death, and the first was Roland West. So I pointed out he was extremely jealous and overprotective when it came to Felma. He literally locked her out of the house in case we forgot. He was also married, as we know.

So that's kind of like a motive right there, because it's like, did Jewel just get sick of turning her head the other way and you had to get rid of felma, kind of thing. Like I said, they had also been arguing a ton lately, and by this point, the restaurant wasn't really doing that well anymore. And it was reportedly because the mafia, Lucky Luciano in particular, was forcing them to buy liquor from this particular distributor, and it was at like a crazy price,

that they couldn't afford, so then they weren't making up that money. And Roland was also known to have mafia ties, and then this is the wild thing. On his deathbed, he claimed that he knew more about Falmetod's murder than he let on in the beginning. I love a deathbed confession. But he didn't, it like wasn't a deathbed confession

because he didn't say like, I did it. He just said, I knew stuff. I know more. I know more. I know things. That's very odd. He like kind of ojated. He was like, if I did it, which I didn't,

but I do know who did. Right, right, right. It's a very rolling thing to do. It is, in my opinion. In his last words were Allison Sals. Allison Sals is not totally kidding. So yeah, that's like all the dirt we have on Roland. Personally, I think I sure I think he knows what happened,

but I don't think he was the one to really murder her. So our next suspect, we've got the ex-husband Pat. And I feel like that's like there's so many obvious reasons for why he would have done it, because obviously while they were married, their relationship was incredibly tumultuous. Pat was rumored to have thought that he and Thelma were getting back together, like I said, in the beginning.

And he even told his family around the time of her death that they were working on it But on film is end it didn't seem that way because she's talking about like moving on and dating different people and showing up to this party with some mystery guest Like I don't think the mystery guest was Pat They also maybe had that argument that Stanley's party the last night But film was seen alive and nobody knows what the argument was over. They were just seen by some people arguing. Now on top of that, and this is where we get to like, how is this murder? Because during Thelma's autopsy, it was discovered that she had two cracked ribs,

a broken nose, and bruising around her throat area, an internal damage done to her throat. Oh, that's straight up murder. Oh, there you go. Moida. That's Moida. That is definitely what we got there. We got there.

And obviously, like I said, Pat was known to have been abusive during their relationship. So he very well could have beaten her. And just like Roland, he was known to have mob ties. Well, now I'm thinking about Roland again. I know. Maybe they were on it together. Yeah, I was ready to throw Roland out.

So we have one more suspect in my opinion. He did this. Well known mobster Lucky Luciano. Ooh. Because Selma and Lucky actually had a brief relationship after she and Pat had divorced and Lucky. Lucky, I love, she was getting it. But she was like dangerous guys, she was gorgeous. But she, like I said, did not know how to pick them.

So Lucky was rumored to actually have been pressuring Thelma, she rent out the third floor of the cafe to him so that he and his mob buddies could use it as like a gambling space, like an underground casino kind of thing. Now this is like, in my opinion, the smoking gun. She told him that was not happening. She literally told him, quote, over my dead body. And his response to her was, that can be arranged. All right, so Lucky Luchana did. Now I have more compelling evidence, Barbara Walters on the case,

Now I have more compelling evidence, Barbara Walters on the case. Because while they were dating, Felma was actually sober, and Lucky was like not into sober people because he wasn't sober himself. So one night while they were hanging out, she refused his offer of some champagne, and he was not having that.

So he took the bottle and essentially shoved it down her throat. So could that have been like he did that and then he also shoved a hose down her throat of like from the gas line of giving her the carbon monoxide poisoning. He's not afraid of putting things in people's throats. Oh damn. Oh damn. That sounded a lot worse than I meant for it. I don't like this pathology that Lucky Luciano is to follow.

No, neither do I. Don't like it. It sounds very mobby to me. It sounds very mobby, and the weird thing is, like I said, during her autopsy, there was internal damage to her throat in addition to a ton of carbon monoxide. So they thought he took a hose from the gas line and I don't even know what this crazy-ass car. I looped it around the back or whatever, the exhaust, I don't

understand how it works. And then was doing that to make it look like it was a suicide. I was just going to say that this seems like work that was not required. Yes, overkill. It seems like we're really, this is, it's a lot. It's a lot going on here. But I feel like it was a lot in Old Hollywood. Like everything was just a lot.

Everything was just extra. Yeah, but I feel like that he had to have known, especially like a mobster, they have to know that like during the autopsy, they're going to find all those other injuries. Like you know, well that's a why even bother with the staging of making it look like carbon monoxide, because it's like you broke her ribs and her nose. That's those are big. Like those those get discovered pretty quick at an autopsy. Yeah. It is weird. Wow, I just, yeah, I don't know. Very strange.

It's so weird to me. I don't know if maybe he like decided like, because he was so upset with her for not wanting the third floor casino thing to happen, that like he was planning to offer anyway. And maybe he didn't even do it himself. Maybe he like sent one of his like people. Oh yeah, I'm sure he did.

And one of them got like, definitely didn't do. Right. And maybe one of them got like a little too into beating her up. And then they were like crap. Like we need to make this look like it was a suicide. So then they kind of like panicked and did that

and got messy. That could be it. Or just to confuse everybody. It's such a weird suicide though. The weirdest. You also don't need the ho. No. Or just to confuse everybody like work and see it. Such a weird suicide though. The weirdest. You also don't need the hope. No, there's actually down the throat.

Like you don't need to place it directly where it needs to go. Why else would there be internal damage to her throat? Like it doesn't make sense. Unless maybe, I don't know if maybe it was like from like alcoholism. But was she that? I mean, that's like extraordinary.

When you have like a soft, jeal damage. Yeah. And I don't think she would have done that in years of like really abusing alcohol. Yeah, I don't think she would have done that in the short time she was in Hollywood because she died when she was 29 and she was around like 21, 22 when she got to Hollywood.

I mean, she was pretty young for that. I don't know what, how hard she was going, but. That's the thing. But that's strange. Yeah, it's so weird. So the thing that sucks too is that no one will ever know what happened to Thelma because a grand jury decided that her death was a suicide.

And the police rushed the investigation. The other thing is that they let everybody trepse through the crime scene. So if there was any evidence, it was gone by the time they got there. And they also were known to be a very corrupt police department who had mob ties. So maybe they were just, they were rushing to cover this up. Perhaps because they didn't want their boys to be upset. Back then they were not awesome at the whole securing the crime scene thing. That seems to be a pattern. They were not good at that at all. I know. I wanted to see a picture of her and it is it's one of those things where you can

I mean that's a bummer but there are photos just of her. There's just photos of the crime scene. Oh yeah. Yeah. Likesheet car, right? Yeah, literally like, summed over in the car being carried out of the car. Like, all stages. I don't think that way. Like, oh damn. Should be just a photo I can find.

No, just in Google image. It seems like that happens a lot to us. Like, we'll post pictures just like, I'll try to find like a picture of like the person that did the crime and I'll end up seeing a picture of the victim online and being like, I didn't want to see that. Like, oh, yeah.

Yeah, that happened during the Ian Brady and my Rehindley case. It was horrible. And I was like, wow, that's going to haunt me for the rest of my life because I just happened to be, I was looking for a picture of them or something. And I just happened to go into Google Images and it was like, boom, and it was one of the victim's photos. And they were kids.

And I was like, okay, I'm destroyed now. Oh god. And the exact same thing happened to me. And I literally, I will wake up at like four o'clock in the morning sometimes and think of that. And I'm like, oh, look why is it in there? It's awful. But that, guys, is the felmeta case.

Oh my god. And nobody knows what happened. What do we think? Cameron, you go first. What do we think? Cameron, you go first. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think that the, I think the, I think the lucky one makes the most sense. Although like, again, it just does sound,

oh man, am I gonna say this? It's like, it's like, my shoulders are slumping. You never wanna be a 29 year old person and then after you're dead, it's like, my shoulders are slumping. You never want to be a 29 year old person. And then after your dad, it's like, there's three people that it's like all seem reason that reasonably they would have killed you. Yeah. Two of them are your lovers.

Yeah. You know, like three of them. Just don't want there to be like, right, oh yeah, three of them. Yeah, they're all like people you've had intimate relationships with that are so dangerous that everybody's like, what could be any of these people? Like that's just a true bummer.

Like you know, it really is. That's the tragedy here. I know. I feel like the fact that like Roland on his deathbed there was like, I know things, I know all the things. I think he was involved with the mob thing. Yep, and maybe it was like a group effort. And that's what I kind of think,

that it was kind of, all of them had mob ties. They're all in the same area. They're all involved with Felma. So it's kind of like, it's like the perfect storm. Mm. Or, you know, he could also have found out after, in terms of like that, you know, I mean, that's the thing that's so that it's like if everybody was business associates through

that, through working together in the mob, then nobody would have turned each other in. No, of course not. So they could have, they would have just, they could have just said, this is what happened. Yeah, he might have said no of this have, they would have just, they could have just said, this is what happened. Yeah, he might have just. No, of this. And he would have been like, okay, you know, gonna keep that one. I wish he had said it though,

okay, I will do nothing with that information. Yeah, it's like you're exiting, like you're not gonna be affected by this. Like, can we just please know what happened? Yeah, just let it all out. I don't know though. It's such a weird case because on the other side of it, like you were kind of saying,

like she's involved with all these shady people. So it really could have just been like kind of an accident, like she went up to the car to get warm. She left the car running, she got the carbon monoxide poisoning, and then it just kind of like worked that all these shady people were in her life. So it kind of just took off.

But had she break her nose and her ribs, accurate. So yeah, it's one of those things that I feel like I she break her nose and her ribs. Accurate. So yeah. It's one of those things that I feel like I just keep going back and forth on. When less that happened at some other point, like during the night or something, and nobody knew, and that's why Ernie said she was quiet, maybe she was in pain.

That's true. And she was worried about the gangsters. Maybe her pattox, her, her, and someone got in a fight, and something happened, or she fell, or yeah. And she was quiet, because she was in pain, she was like I just want to get up stairs, don't walk me there because you're going to figure it out. And then she couldn't get in so she goes and sit in the car. I don't I think I solved it.

I think that was like a really good point actually. I didn't even think of that. That it could have happened before. So I think I just solved it guys. It's closed. And there was a fight at the party. Because like a lot of people said there was at least an argument. Yeah. Right.

Oh, one of those things where I feel like you'll just never said it like I did this case at one of our like first live shows. So that's why I decided to do it again. Because I feel like I got a little bit better with my research skills. I actually ended up finding a lot more than I found the first time. But it's still even like the first time I did it to now I've gone back and forth so many times on what I think happened. Yeah, I mean overall It's like what happened is that this person was just disposable to multiple people

Which is so sad. I know it's all those old Hollywood cases. They all have that kind of like underlying tone of just sadness Yeah, for sure, but I mean, that doesn't, again, it doesn't feel different to me to now, especially when it's a young person who is working in the industry and there's a tragic death and there's that outpouring of mourning, but then we move on as a culture because we do. I mean, honestly, not to like super personalize it,

but really taking it back to what we're talking about the very beginning when I was talking about like finding a job that's an outlet for your feelings, but then trusting that to be something that will take care of you. You know, like the industry is not your friend and audience is not your friend. And I think that that can be really confusing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so, you

know, that's like when all these really terrible stories come together, it's because somebody wasn't protected and they trusted the wrong thing. They trusted $20,000 worth of jewels and cool beachfront restaurant. And that was not a people that were really able to keep them safe or that care about keeping them safe. And it's so sad when the family is involved too, like the fact that her mom, just, her mom was a really shady character.

She kinda ate it and getting her in the machine. Yeah, so she just kinda had no one. Poor Thelma, and getting her in the machine. Yeah. So she just kind of had no one. Poor Thelma. I know. Justice for Thelma. But on a later note, thank you so much for joining us. It was so cool hanging out with you. This was so much fun. It was cool hanging out with you too. I really like you too. I really like you. Look at that. Now we're friends. Absolutely. It is there anything that you want to plug, announce, where can we find you?

Yes, plug away. Well, I got... Is there only things I'm working on? But right now, honestly, it's just dog photos. Keep working on them. I love them. Keep going. I mean, that's front facing. So don't worry.

I'll keep working on this other stuff. And maybe there'll be big things in future. But in the meantime, please keep up with my dog photos via all of my social media accounts. Yes, do it. It's worth it, everybody, I promise. It definitely is. And guys, everyone listening, go follow Cameron on everything,

go get Cameron's book. I just got the hardcover copy. I was like, I need her to like virtually sign it or something. Which that was a thing. And it's so good. There you go. It's so good. You guys will love it.

And as always guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it. It's weird. Bye. always guys we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. survey at Wondery.com slash survey.