Morbid - Episode 425: The Clutter Family Murders

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

In 1959 the state of Kansas was absolutely shocked to find that one of its most prominent and well-liked families, The Clutters, had been murdered. Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, two convicts that had recently been released from prison were the ones responsible. Both had been told by a fellow inmate while incarcerated that the Clutter family had a large amount of cash stashed in a safe on their property. The two broke into the family home and searched for the safe, they then woke up the family when they couldn't find it, tortured and murdered them one by one. thank you to exquisite David White for research assistance ReferencesCapital Wire Service. 1959. "Two Itinerant Laborers Held for Murder Quiz." Topeka Daily Capital, November 20.Capote, Truman. 1965. "In Cold Blood." The New Yorker, September 25.Cowan, Carole. 2005. "Persons Unknown." New York Times, Jan 23: F6.Garden City Telegram. 1965. "Last Words Attack Capital Punishment." Garden City Telegram, April 14: 1.Gonsalves, Antone. 1984. "25 years later, 'In Cold Blood' murders still haunt." United Press International, November 11.Greer, Bob. 1959. "Clutter Family Murders." Garden City Telegram, November 16: 1.Hegeman, Roxana. 2009. "The Stains of In Cold Blood Still Fresh 50 Years Later." Guelph Mercury, November 10.Hickock, Richard. 1960. "Spectre of Noose Haunts Prisoner." Topeka Daily Capital, March 25.Kalbfleisch, Gay. 1959. "Empty Shell Cases, Fatal Shot Found." Topeka Daily Capital, November 19: 1.Keglovitts, Sally J. 2004. "In Cold Blood Revisited: A Look Back at an American." Federal Probation: A Journal of Correctional Philosophy and Practice 68 (1).Kull, Ron. 1960. "Crime Plans Listed." Topeka Daily Capital, 03 24: 1.—. 1960. "'They'll Both Get the Rope'." Topeka State Journal, March 23: 1.—. 1960. "'Wells Was to Get Cut,' Says Hickock." Topeka State Journal, March 26.McAvoy, Gary. 2019. And Every Word is True. Bremerton, WA: Literati Editions.New York Times. 1959. "Wealthy Farmer, 3 of Family Slain." New York Times, November 16: 39.State Journal News Services. 1960. "Jury Tours Clutter Farm; Death Asked." Topeka State Journal, March 23.State of Kansas vs. Hickock & Smith. 1961. 363 P.2d 541 (Supreme Court of Kansas, July 8).Time Magazine. 1960. "Kansas: The Killers." Time Magazine, January 18.Topeka State Journal. 1965. "Clutter Case Reporter Finds Relief in End of Long Story." Topeka State Journal, April 14: 1.United Press International. 1959. "Fear, Grief Follow Murder Shock." Topeka Daily Capital, November 16: 1.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon music. Download the app today. You're listening to Immorbid Network Podcast. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American Scandal. Our newest series looks at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about two judges who stood accused of making millions of dollars in a brazen scheme that shattered the lives of countless children. Listen to American scandal on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, weirdo!

I'm an... And I'm a lame. And this is morbid. This is morbid. I said, um, you did. And you said, um, you were like, well, fuck, okay? I was just repeating it, all right? I don't know what to say. Um, yeah, this is morbid, and it's going to be morbid,

because we're talking about a very big, um, older, because it's me, but it's like the 50s, so don't worry, it's not that old. Uh, an older true crime case, but one that a lot of people know about, crazy, because the 50s, so don't worry, it's not that old. An old or true crime case, but one that a lot of people know about crazy, because the 50s is old now. It's like super old, but not like, you know, when I say old usually, it's like 181901, 1877. I was gonna say, like, 1492, you know,

failing the ocean blue all that's it. Or were you? But yeah, we're here. I just saw that you guys have gotten the episode where we were talking about sinister porn babe. It's given dark vibes. It's given dark satted. Because I just saw that people were commenting

being like, I came here from orbit and I cannot be fucking happier. Yes. I cannot be fucking happier. Go. Sinister babe is not a really good one. Be part of the babe cult. By, it's, I needed a laugh last night.

Like last, yesterday was like just a rough day, all around. And I ended the day being like, wow, today sucked. And I was like shitty feeling. And I was just sitting there next to John, put on something on TV. And I just like happened to scroll. And the first thing that popped up on my TikTok. Darksided was my favorite.

My favorite. Talking about some random town in Alabama. Talking about whether it was a sinister pond or a bougie pond that she was looking at. She decided it was a bougie pond because there was horses next to her. Oh, that's bougie. Equestrians. It is a bougie. But you can ask John, I was literally laughing out loud. And I was like, I want her to forever have everything she wants

because she had, that's a service that I needed last night. She provided it. I love the different ways in which we cope. Because we both have like a shit day yesterday. And I just did Mania at Target. Who just did Mania. I just, I was a Mania girl at Target. I love that.

Yeah, I love that for you. I got some workout leggings, got a notebook. I'll probably never use a lot of pens. We love the new cup. What are you gonna do? All the necessities. Yeah, just like things that Target said, you know. You know, I just spent the night with sinister prom vibe and also thinking about playing the Sims

But not actually doing it. I'm gonna need for you to play the Sims because I feel like this has been going on for years Oh, no, it definitely has I really want to play the Sims Ash, but it's one of those Galeena you should play the Sims, but it's one of those things that I'm like, yeah, I really want to play the sims that I'm like, when though? Yeah, that's fair. That's the thing. Like you're over there shocked that I haven't sat and built myself a town. Well, you know, you minutes off of TikTok and just piece by piece build your town. I know. I think that is what I'm going to end up doing. Just give yourself a, I need to, again, I say to you, self-care. Yeah. Maybe for you, yourself cares the sims. Again, I say to you, self-care.

Maybe for you, yourself cares the sims. That doesn't have to look like everybody else to see care. It's not a maybe, it's for sure, that's why. It's all the sculpting. Look at that. It's a sculpting sim. But I keep getting, you know what I'm getting tick tocks? Like, tick tocks is even telling me,

stop doing this and go play the sims because I'm getting all these sims tick tocks. That's because it listens to us. Yeah. I like to, I know that's totally the reason, but I'm also like, It TikToks. That's because it listens to us. Yeah. I like that. I know that's totally the reason, but I'm also like... It feels like a sign. Oh my, it's a sign, guys.

That's like, it's not because I'm talking with it. It's just me. How does it even know? It's the universe. It's kind of like I was talking about like the specific, very, very specific shoes yesterday, and that I was on Instagram and they were like, Hey, you there.

Do you like these shoes? We feel like you would like these shoes. What was it called, hey, you there. Do you like these shoes? We feel like you would like these shoes. What was it called, do you? Yeah, who are you fooling? So you know what? Go play the Sims if you feel like it everybody and go to Totsha, Sinister Palm Bad.

Yeah, so. Bye. Today we are gonna talk about the clutter family murders. Now, I know that I've heard of this case, but I don't know if I know exactly what this is. So, a lot of people may not know it as the clutter family murders. Oh, okay.

They may know it as the in cold blood murder case. Truman Capote, oh, she's confused. I'm not gonna- You don't know who Truman Capote is? Am I gonna be in here? In cold blood? I gotta move on from that. Okay, so wait, what?

Wait, what? Truman Capote is an author. Okay. A very well-known author who wrote in Cold Blood about this case. Okay, it's slightly controversial. We're gonna talk about it at the end. I'd like to point out that this is your fault as my mother in true crimes. Yeah. It's one of the, it's slightly controversial. We're gonna talk about it at the end. I'd like to point out that this is your fault

as my mother in True Crime. So it's one of the, it's a very big True Crime book because it is known as the first nonfiction novel. Oh. Where there was some creative license taken, but it's an actual case. Yeah. It's an interesting situation.

Okay. Philipsy More Hoffman played Capote in like a movie called Capote I think. I know Philipsy More Hoffman. There you go. He played him. Okay. So there's that. Oh man, that's wild.

So I said I do. No, no, no, I mean like the Truman Capote. I'm sure we're gonna get boating things. I know. No, I do. I was like, no, no, I mean like the Truman Compotation. I'm sure you're making a boating thing. I know. No, I do. I was like, I know one of them. I was like, I know you know Philipsy Moore off, but I will not take that from you.

So I was thinking of what? Please. You know who is he? He's in the fucking Hunger Games. He was great in the Hunger Games. All right, P Phillipsy Moore, huh? I know. Sad, tragic.

It's a sad one. But you know what, let's get into another very sad tragic case. Okay. We're gonna talk about the clutter family murders. First, let's talk about, so the clutter family, they lived in Kansas and whole-come Kansas. This is a really terrible crime, a very senseless crime as most are,

but this one is just like, what the fuck? And especially because they went in there, thinking they were gonna get a lot out, and they didn't get a lot out. And they ended up, see what I mean? No, I mean, they're murders. And they ended up killing an entire family in the process. Tell me it solved.

Yes, it is solved. Thank the good Lord to the boss. This one is solved, we know who did it. But there's all kinds of weird little things with the killers too and we'll get into it There their names are Richard Hickock and Perry Smith Okay, and Perry Smith is like an interesting one because like a lot of Sympathy went to him at one point

Because he showed weird signs of having empathy, but like, I don't believe he did. Clearly didn't, because he was involved in the murder of an entire family. And he had a very rough child and it was one of those things where it was like, for exactly a child. Exactly a child.

For the child. So let's talk about the patriarch of the clutter family before we get into the horrific way in which they all died. So Herbert Clutter was the Patriarch of this family. He was born in 1911. He held degrees from Kansas State University in economics and agriculture. His life was farming. He worked in the whole process of farming, the whole business behind farming.

He worked as an agricultural agent for Finley County, which meant he traveled around educating farmers on advances in farming technology and stuff like that. Eventually he started his own farm in Holcomb and Kansas in the 1940s and he called it River Valley Farm. He was known as an extremely kind, very hard working and very loving man. He was very active in his community. Everyone knew him as a family man. They knew his family. They were very well known in their community. He was a, he was very personable. He was always chatty when people came upon him. He seems like someone everyone would have immediately been drawn to. He just has that vibe about him. And if you look at a picture of him, you're like, yeah, he has a very kind face.

He was literally referred to several times in several different sources that I saw as salt of the earth. Oh, yeah, that's awful. As if we don't already love Herbert Clutter, he was successful and also showed up for the little guy. Even in post-war United States, when farming was really going through a transformation with like new technology and automated, you know, farm labor happening, clutter's farm was thriving, and he used his own knowledge, his own experience to run it.

But he also fiercely advocated for smaller farms and local farms. He was even president of the National Association of Weekroers, and he was the founder and president of Kansas Association of Weekroers. He just looks like a kind man. He does. He has those eyes, and he has that smile. That smile. And I'm not kidding you.

You cannot find something that says he was a dick. There might have been like business owners who were like, yeah, we had some like business things. Like, of course, that we would get like kind of heated, but like, as a human outside of business and as a human and its family and its community, he was beloved. This whole family was.

I was gonna say this whole family looks like just the big guys next door. The family next door. It's the picture of a 50 like, you know, RF family. Like they just look like the picture perfect, man. No, it's so true. In 1953, actually, President Eisenhower appointed clutter to the federal farm credit board.

And he was a, like, he was a fucking gem. Like he was on a national level now doing this kind of stuff. He was very active in politics, local and national, and really had to do with the farming industry, but he was very active in it. Now, in a little bit of contrast to her, who was like very outgoing, very like all over the place, a people person, his wife was Bonnie Clutter, and she was very introverted. She did suffer a lot from severe bouts of depression and anxiety. She went through it, like truly crippling depression at times.

In the years before she was murdered, she had been hospitalized several times for several months. She had been receiving care in Wichita. And her doctor said she was also suffering from nervous muscle spasms. Oh, man. Which were painful, like physically, and had to be medicated with medicine that would kind of a Sedate Bonnie so she was like out of it a lot like upstairs sleeping. Yeah, but she tried she tried to fight through this and she was She was making a get a valiant effort and she was like making headway and

She was really when she had better moments like that, you know They were few and far between at this point, she was really fighting through it. But she would make an effort to be active with her children whenever she could. She was an active member of the Methodist Church, and she taught Sunday school there, as well as being a member of the Women's Society of Christian Service. And I think she was part of the Garden Club too. She was really trying to get out there, trying to fight through this.

She was making it all and she was still there for her family. By all accounts, Herb stuck by her and would do anything for her and she really fought. But luckily, even though all this behind the scenes stuff was happening, that people probably didn't see that much, it did not affect their children in the slightest. It doesn't seem like it when you see a picture, they all have like beaming smiles. Yeah. They had four children.

They had two older daughters named Beverly and Eviana. They were adults. They had moved out of the house when this had happened. Eviana is really cool. They made pretty. Yeah. And then they also had a daughter named Nancy, who was 16 at the time of the murders,

and Kenyan, who was a son, and he was 15 years old. Okay. Kenyan is a cool named. And you also was a Clayton. Yeah. They were all the picture of all American teenagers characteristic of that era. Kenyan looks a lot like his father does.

Yeah. Both Nancy and Kenyan were active in the Methodist youth fellowship and were nominated in leadership roles in the organization as well So they were they were taking right after their dad. Yeah being active in the community being beloved Taking apart and things Nancy clutter like I said was 16 years old and She really is the picture of the 1950s. She truly is Look at a picture of her pleasant bill. It is it. When you look at a picture of her. It's a pleasant bill. It is.

It looks like Reese Witherspoon in pleasant bill on a dark hair. Yup, exactly. She was popular. She was pretty. She was a straight A student. She had a boyfriend named Bobby Rupp. So Nancy had a boyfriend named Bobby.

Like a child. She just loved it. It's just like, how can you be? They were going to the Lovis Lines. Oh, they were going to dances at sock hops, you know Poodle skirts, a lot of that and she loved to ride horses She was a member of Holcomb schools mixed chorus and also had just received Right before the murders the good citizen award at school. Wow days before oh And that was like a big deal

Kenyan or her younger brother, was 15 years old. He was also very popular, very well liked, but he was very quiet. Again, very positive though. Yeah, he was like very much and he was very quiet, like reserved, but like not off-putting. He also got great grades. He loved to tinker with things. He liked to get his hands in the things. He was especially interested in fixing up his old Jeep. And he was also an athlete. He was like a jock. He was very athletic and was the star of the high schools,

basketball and track teams. Damn, doing it all. Unsurprisingly, he was also a member of the Finley County 4-H Club. So it all just, doing the same thing. They're all killing it. They were a tight family who supported and loved each other and they did good for their community together.

This is all the more heartbreaking. I mean, it's heartbreaking no matter what, but when you just hear what good people either are through and through. Yeah. And it's like, and I found a lot that was said about like Bonnie and what she was going through and like people would be like, oh yeah, she just spent all her time like sleeping upstairs and like away from it. And it's like, but then when you really dive into it,

you see one, every family has shit going on. Of course. Behind the scenes. Nobody is perfect. They may look perfect, but no family is perfect. Absolutely not. And two, when you really look into it, yeah, she was struggling with depression and anxiety

and she was struggling with physical ailments, like those nervous muscle spasms. She was in real pain like that. Well, that's the thing that people don't realize is that depression often leads to physical symptoms. Chronic fatigue and physical symptoms. Yeah. It's a real thing. Yeah, and that's the thing.

And when you really hear, like you start digging a little further and you see people in the town talking and people who knew this family and her family and all that, or actual family that was surviving outside of this nuclear family, they all say she was the sweetest woman. Of course.

She was there for her kids, she loved her kids and she was fighting through what she was fighting through. And it's like, yeah. It sounds like the shitty thing too is that this was in what year? What? This was in the 50s, so it was like saying the 50s.

So it wasn't understood back then. Exactly. Depression, mental health, struggles. Yeah, it was like she's just being lazy. Yeah, exactly. No, that's not it. That's right. Yeah, so I just wanted to put that out there

because I saw so many things that were just like, herb was this amazing guy, which he is. But then it was just like in Bonnie, was just sleeping up in bed, being a lazy bitch. And it's like, that's not what that was. And it's like, if Herb is this amazing guy, clearly he's gonna be drawn to an amazing woman. Gonna be drawn to an amazing gal, you know?

But unfortunately, this would all come to an end. In March of 1958, 28 year old Richard Dick Hickock, which we're going to call him Dick, was in Kansas State Penicentiary in Lansing, serving a five-year sentence, just, you know, for being an asshole. He was actually in there for robbery, but it was during this being an asshole. It was during this time period that his cellmate, Floyd Wells, started telling him about a large sum of money that was just waiting to be stolen out of a farmer's home in Holcomb. Wells said he had worked at River Valley Farm. In the late 40s, and he knew that Herb Clutter kept $10,000 in cash in a safe in the home.

Who? Yeah, Diddy? No, he did not. Dick was very interested in this and immediately started thinking about a plan to get it when he was sprung free. Oh good. Now Dick had an unremarkable life. Essentially, he himself was born and raised on a farm in eastern Kansas and he was born on a farm. He knows farmers lives. He's part of the farmers. Like the community. He's part of the farmers, like the community, he's part of all that, and he's still gonna go in betray a fellow farmer.

But Dick was smart and athletic and well liked growing up. He had been hoping to receive a scholarship to college through his athletic ability, but he didn't get it. And so instead of college, he went straight to doing work, like, you know, just odd jobs around the area because he couldn't really get a degree. So he was having trouble. He ended up being married and divorced twice already

by the age of 28. And was truly one of those people who just won't put in the work. That's interesting. That's a key theme in the story. I'm going to tell you later. Awesome. Yeah, that's, it's just, I want the end prize,

but I want it for free. Yeah, it doesn't work like that. You would do anything to avoid working. Often, it ended up landing him in jail. He had also been in a car accident at one point and he had scars on his face. He was like knowing his like a pretty good looking guy growing up and he ended up having a few scars on his face from the accident. And everybody said that he was very angry about that because it ruined his face.

You're so big. Yeah. So another criminal entered the jail cell with Dick and Floyd Wells around this time too. And his name was Perry Smith. So Smith grew up very poor in a family where violence and alcoholism were a constant threat over him and his siblings from his parents.

OK. In 1948, he joined the army and served in the Korean War. Unfortunately, he had not gone to smoke school and had not maintained any skills to aid in a job search. So when he was honorably discharged in 1952, he was immediately struggling. Now, he became a drifter. He was often arrested for petty crimes like Dick. The difference between the two though, and their pension for criminal behavior, was that

Dick did crimes because he was a lazy asshole who liked to cause problems. He just did it because he could and because he wanted to. Smith did crimes because he was an asshole, but also because he was often desperate in situations. Some of his crimes were out of pure desperation. And a product of his environment. Exactly. I'm not saying any of this is validating it.

No. It's just a different motive for the crimes. They are both assholes. They both did crime because they were assholes. But one of them had a little bit more of a desperation mode at times and the other one was just lazy. I think it is important to note that. It's just important to know.

What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times or fell in love with a vampire or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed. What would you do? I'm Whit Missildine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future with one choice, to a woman

who survived a notorious serial killer. You'll hear their first person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances. Each episode is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting accounts sound like Hollywood movies, but I assure you, this is actually happening. Follow this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So it was in 1956 that Smith, Perry Smith, was in that jail cell at the state penitentiary in Lansing, and that's when he met Dick. Now according to Floyd Wells, Dick couldn't stop talking about that safe full of $10,000

at the clutter farm. He was obsessed. According to Wells, he said, quote, as soon as I get out on parole, I'm going to find me some transportation, get a hold of Smith, and go to the clutters and see if they're still $10,000 in their damn safe. And he often boasted about the lengths that he would go to to get it, saying he would kill everyone in that house with no thought just to get the money. Where are the authorities? Like, this is the reason why we need more ears, excuse me, in prison.

Yeah. Like, we need this to, we need to know, excuse me, in prison. Yeah. We need this to, we need to know about this before it's able to happen. Exactly. Like they're planning what ended up happening. Literally. Like it all went in prison. All prisoners playing out. While there are police officers.

Yes, and security guards and Lottie Dottie all around. When unfortunately Wells never felt like he needed to tell anyone about this because he said he saw Dick as a blowhard He was all talk and no walk and he never thought he was serious about any of his outbursts He was like he was a petty criminal. He was a piece of shit. He was always bragging He was always saying I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. He's like I didn't think five years later No, of course he was gonna go and really do this thing He's like I thought he was just talking shit to me in a jail cell.

But like rule of thumb, if somebody tells you they're gonna commit murder on an entire family, you might wanna tell like at least one person. Well, that's the thing. It's like, and there's also the snitch thing. He doesn't wanna be seen as that, of course. But for him saying like, I didn't think you'd time walk the walk, he's just talking it, you know?

And it's like, he is in jail with you though. So apparently he does walk sometimes. Sometimes he does walk at times after he talks. Exactly. But unfortunately, Wells underestimated Dick. And he was indeed obsessed with this score at the clutter farm. He was ready to make real progress on making it happen, and he knew that Perry Smith was the guy to help him make it happen.

According to Sally Keglivitz, excuse me, who looked back into these crimes and analyzed them in a publication entitled Cold Blood Revisited, a look back at an American crime. She says Dick saw something in Smith that he himself didn't have but wanted. She said Dick saw, quote, he saw in Perry a talent that he knows he didn't possess. Those of a natural born killer. Jesus. So he's saying, Perry Smith has killer blood. Like he just, to her, this is what people saw in him is,

he could do it. Like he could do it and probably not flinch, but Dick's gonna be flatching a little bit of a hesitation here. Interesting. Yeah. And the thing is Perry also sees something in Dick that he doesn't have in himself, but would like to too. He sees confidence in Dick.

He thinks Dick has the ability to make a move without second guessing it or hesitating, but not make it that move. You know what I mean? He can make that move to get us to the farm, to get this whole plan going, but when it comes down to it, it's going to have to be Perry Smith who's going to make that like final. The real bad move. It's like he sees Dick as the one who can really put things together and has the confidence to be like, this is going to work. Right. Like jumpstart the car. But then he's

got to drive. But he's got to hit the gas. And Perry also weirdly seemed to seek out Dix approval or validation. I feel like in twos there's always one person who's seeking the other side of the nation. Yeah. And it makes sense that Perry Smith would be that one because he grew up seeking validation. And not getting it.

Exactly. So he's looking for approval out of somebody. Relatable. Yeah. Not in this way though. I was gonna say not completely, but we get it. But yeah, yeah. So as they obsess over this, Smith's parole, parole comes up, and he's let out on July 6, 1959. No, thank you. He is required to leave Kansas as a condition of his parole to him. And he does. But he stays close by doing odd jobs and waiting for Dick to be

let out too. He's just like hanging out on the borders. Oh, game. Now Dick is let out on Pearl in mid-August of the same year, so he was let out a little early. And he moved back in with his parents for a few months. They spoke through letters about the big score that they were destined to steal. Smith, however, was a little worried about violating pres parole by returning back to Kansas. Okay.

Apparently the whole robbery and eventual murder wasn't the issue, just location. Yeah. It was really about location. Yeah, exactly. But with a little pushing, he agrees. And they agreed to me, they agreed to meet in O'Laith in early November, I think it's O'Laith.

I feel like I should look that up. I'll pause for a minute. I'm gonna look it up, guys, because I don't wanna be yelled at. Guys, it's O'Laitha. I'm like I should look that up. I'll pause for you. I'm gonna look it up, guys, because I don't want to be yelled at. Guys, it's Olathe. I'm really glad I looked that up. She fancy. Olathe, because I've never would have said it that way. So glad I looked it up. Look at you. So nobody else yell at me. I got it right. Olathe.

So they agreed to meet in Olathe in early November. So November 14th, 1959, Perry Smith and Dick Hickock meet in Olathe as planned. They steal a car together and they drove 400 miles to Garden City. In a stolen car. Yes. Wow. Which is just outside of Holcomb, Texas. Texas, Kansas.

I was like, they drove to Texas. No, I'm on a different planet. I'm not at Chiharpean. I was like, is Kansas close to Texas? I was like, what's happening? I was like, they drove to Texas. No, I'm on a different planet. I'm about it, so I'm tired. I was like, is Kansas close to Texas? What's happening? I was like, I didn't think it was close. I'm confused. So they stopped on the way to purchase nylon rope,

two inch adhesive tape, a small pocket knife, and some rubber gloves. Yep. And arrived in Garden City just after midnight. There they stopped at a Phillips 66 to get gas and then they drove the mile or so so to hold come. When they arrived they drove to the long dirt road that leads to River Valley View Farm. Do they just stopped there at the end and they were cycling themselves up like we got to do this but then Dick sh shit his pants when the light came on at a

home nearby and he was like, ah, we can't do this. So he insisted they run back to the car and they did. But after a bit, they got the nerve up again and they went to the house. So they had a moment where they said, we shouldn't do this and they still did this. Yeah. That tells you everything you need to know. And they parked it was wrong. Exactly. They parked their car near a side entrance to the home office, and this is where they mistakenly believed that $10,000 would be in a safe in there. There were plenty of times during this entire thing where they could have stopped.

Yeah. They could have stopped about a hundred times, and they didn't. So just putting that out there. Now Smith and Dick just walked right into the clutter home. It was unlocked. And they have flashlights and weapons. Dick has a large hunting knife and Smith has a shotgun.

Oh my God. So already we can see this is not just a robbery. They are very prepared to do a lot more than rob these people. Absolutely. And for them to claim anything different is bullshit in my opinion. Yeah, why would you need a gun and a knife? A gun and a knife? Why did you buy nylon

rope adhesive tape? Why'd you buy any of that, Sean? Ridiculous. They searched the small home office and they find no seat safe for Wells had said it would be behind the desk. It's nowhere to be found. And also, Wells described this luxurious office with like clear evidence that these people were flush with cash. And instead, this office is pretty small and modest. Nothing like he described. Is he thinking of like a different family entirely? Or do you think he was just talentales?

I think he was just stupid to be honest. I think he was stupid. He was talentales. I think he exaggerated. And I think he also forgot. All right, but they are pissed when they see that there is no safe, especially Dick who is not going to leave without money. He's been banking on this for years.

Exactly. It's all he had thought about for years. So they walk right into her, and Bonnie's bedroom and wake him up with a flashlight beam to his eyes. Oh my God. He awakens and is obviously startled. Now, I think what happened was Bonnie might have been in another bedroom at this night because

sometimes she would have to sleep in a separate bed because of the pain she was going through. It would keep her awake and she didn't want to keep her awake. So sometimes she would go sleep in a different bed. This happened to be one of those nights. I believe. Some sources say that she was in the other room, some say she wasn't. I saw more that said she was outside of the room. Okay.

So herb is awakened by a flashlight in his eyes. He's obviously startled. And when they declare why they're in his home, he tells them there is no safe. And he's like, there's no valuables or cash in my home. Whoever told you that is mistaken. Oh, God. He, and also he almost always paid for everything with a check and everyone in town knew that.

Like you could ask anybody in the style and they would have told you he uses a check. He doesn't use cash. So he tells the murders this and the murders this and he's like, I'll happily write you a check and I'll give you whatever cash we may be able to find in this house and somebody's wallet or something like you can have all of that. Right. I just don't have $10,000 for you.

And he's like, but I'll write you a check for as much as I can and you can take it out of here. And he said, just please leave the rest of my family alone. Oh my God. The fact that that that could have happened. Yeah. Like he was willing to just be like, look away, give him a check. I can't see you. You have a flashlight beam in my eyes. I can't see you anyways. That alone tells you that they were not just here for the money. Because they could just get it. They were here for the thrill of it. Yeah. They could have just taken it.

But instead, they wake up every member of the clutter family and lock all four of them in the upstairs bathroom together. Oh, God. After they're secured. And at one point, they literally hog tied them in the bathroom together. So they are all secured. And so Dick and Perry Smith ransacked the home, looking for cash and valuables that Herb just told them weren't there. You're not going to find it. It proved to be true. Nothing was found of value. And now they were even more angry. So they go back to the bathroom, they put tape over all the clutter families mouths. They hog tie Bonnie, Herb, Nancy and Kenyan. Herb and Kenyan are then taken to the basement by Dick and he throws Herb onto the cement floor and ties Kenyan to a soil pipe in the corner. Oh my God. So Dick then goes upstairs and he ties

Nancy to her own bedpost. He doesn't put, there was no tape found on Nancy's mouth. Interesting. All the other ones were taped over the mouth. Weird. She's tied to our own bedpost and Bonnie is first left hog tied in the bathroom, but she's later transferred to her bedroom where she's tied to a post as well. Perry is watching Bonnie, left to watch her.

And at one point, he offered her a chair to make her more comfortable. Okay. To me, this is scarier than straight up cruelty. I don't know why. Because we know that they were ultimately going to kill her anyway. So the compassionate behavior during something this scary is not comforting. No, it's scary because you know that's exactly either way and it's precisely why are you being

kind to me if you know what you're just going to do. You're brutally murdered. You nailed it. That's exactly what it is. It's like you know what you're like I know what your plan is. Why are you even bothering like that's weird And it's like a like a devil angel. Yeah, it's very strange now weirdly Smith shows some of this strange almost compassionate behavior during their Odile in the beginning later he changes about and he's without a doubt the more violent of the pair to begin with So that's why it's even weirder that he's being the one that's compassionate. Dick is a blowhard. Dick is a blowhard.

Like he's probably the one yelling and screaming and trying to scare everybody like an asshole. But Perry Smith is actually violent and scary. You know what though? That's, I think that's what makes it scarier. It's like a weird comparison. But it's like when your dad is like, hey, stop. Yeah, and you don't stop. And he's like, but it's like when your dad is like, hey, stop.

Yeah. And you don't stop. And he's like, cut it out. And you don't cut it out. And he fucking blows up. And it's like, cut the shit. And then loses it. And you're like, oh my god.

Like I was a scary old man. Oh shit. I was like, I was like, you know? Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's scary. I, to me, it's scarier when someone is measured in calm, in their terror than like, so anybody can yell and scream and flip out. Right.

It takes a lot to be that measured calm and still be terrifying at the same time. It's like animalistic in a way. It's like how like an animal will get quiet and kind of hunker down before it. It's long. It's itself at you. Exactly. You know, like a cornered animal. Exactly.

Yeah, it's wild. Now, Perry Smith even notices that herb is cold on the cement floor because it's in the winter. And so he places big pieces of cardboard beneath him to comfort him. What? Then Kenyan is saying that his bindings are cutting off his circulation, and he was like, can you please just loosen them? And Perry Smith removes them, and then brings Kenyan to a sofa where he ties him looser

and provides him a pillow under his head. What? Remember, there was no way they didn't intend to kill these people from the jump, in my opinion. Yeah. So this to me, like we were saying, is almost cooler than just being cold. Yeah, it's like giving people hope here that they can survive this. Do you think there was like some weird part of him that was struggling internally, whether

he was going to or not? I almost think I'm wondering if he found, and I was just in his, because this whole thing lasted like two hours, wow, where they were just in complete terror, not having any idea what was going to happen. To me, the fact that it lasted for two hours, and then how it ends, I think Smith was not really caring about these people or their comfort or their lives or anything. I kind of think in this, maybe this is just me, this is just my analysis of the situation, I think he was finding some kind of amusement

out of the faux show of compassion. I think he wanted to be seen as the nicer of the two. They were almost doing a good cop bad cop thing. And I think Perry Smith was like, well, this is fun. I can just pretend to be a nice person. Well, because it's almost more torturous. Exactly. I can give these people hope. And then I can snuff it out at the last second. To me, that's what it looks like. Yeah. But who knows? He was a very complicated individual later. So like, who really knows?

But after the two hours of terror, Smith insists, this is why I think that what I just said, it was Smith, Perry Smith, who insisted that Dick use the hunting knife that he brought with him to kill herb clutter, not even the gun. And he even teased him about being too chicken to scary out the plan that he had supposedly come ready to carry out. So that's why I think that Smith wasn't actually having any moments of compassion. I think it was amusement. I could, yeah, I think it was just passing the time, just making it worse.

That's real weird. Now after Dick hesitated, Smith takes the hunting knife out of Dick's hands and he slits herbs throat with it. Oh my God. Then he shoots herb in the head with the shotgun at close range. There was no need. No, there was no need. Just he wanted to do that.

Now remember to Kenyun is right there. Oh, he still can't even saw all of this. Was this the sofa was in the basement? Yeah, there was a sofa in the basement. I see, I see. Yeah. So he saw or at the very least heard all of this. Now Kenyan was killed second by a shotgun blast to the head while laying on the couch

with a pillow under his head. That's where he was found. And then you know, obviously Nancy and Bob, you're the shocker of that upstairs. Oh my God. They then went to Nancy and shot her as she was tied to her bedpost. That's where she was found. And then they went to Bonnie.

And as they did this, each time they would shoot one of them, they collected the spent shotgun shells because they thought they were smart. And they thought that would help them get away with it. So herb was the only one who they used the knife on and the rest of them were shot. That's interesting too. And they were shot with a shotgun at very close range all in the face or head. So it was very brutal, like very brutal.

And as if we need in more proof of this pair's callus and monstrous ways, Smith, Perry Smith, later told the jury at his trial, quote, it was like picking off targets in a shooting gallery. Oh, was it? Yeah. It wasn't like ending a family's life. Yeah. All the lives like children. Now, after terrorizing and murdering the entire clutter family in the home, Dick and Smith left with Kenyans portable transistor radio, his pair of binoculars, and the $40 that they got from Herbs wallet. Wow.

And that's it. Wow. They killed that entire family who was in the home that night for $40, a transistor radio, and a pair of binoculars. It's interesting that they didn't write a check. Yeah. They probably couldn't find the check, probably. Either, and they're too stupid, probably.

But they drive to the county line. They pulled over to clean themselves up and they use water from the car radiator to clean the blood off their hands and the gun. And then, Perry Smith dug a hole on the side of the highway where he buried the knife, the spent shotgun shells, the tape, and the rope. Yeah. And just goes back to life as usual.

Oh yeah, and eventually they didn't even leave the knife there. The knife was found later at Dick's farm. So they must have taken it. Yeah. Now Susan Kidwell always attended church with the clutter family on Sunday. She was just a family friend, a child, a family friend. But this Sunday, the 15th, they didn't arrive to pick her up

and they didn't call. So she was concerned immediately with this weird change of behavior and she tried calling them several times. But there was no answer at the house. So she and her friend Nancy E. Walt convinced Nancy's father Clarence to drive the girls over to the clutter farm and just check on what was going on. Yeah. Now right away it was clear something was off.

When they arrived, they saw that all the car, the car was still there, but the house was quiet and dark. So, Clarence put the car in park, but Susan was nervous and hesitant to get out and go into the door because she was like something's off. Yeah, she sometimes you could just feel it. Yeah, and she knew it. And later, she would tell Truman Capote

when he came to talk to people in this community about the crimes. She said, quote, I was frightened. I don't know why, because it never occurred to me. Well, something like that just doesn't. Like, why would you ever think? No. She was actually hoping the dad would just go into the home,

but he'd been working outside that morning and his boots were covered in mud. So he didn't want to go in. So he was, I don't know, he was like, I don't want to track mud all over their house. So Susan and Nancy were like, fine, we'll go in. Oh, God. And they went around the kitchen door, which was unlocked. And they knew it would be because that was normal for the clutter. And most people around the area at the time, they never walked their doors. Yeah, it's a small quiet, especially during the day. But from the moment the two girls entered the home, they said they could just feel it.

Something was off. And they said there was no breakfast remnants, not even signs that anyone had woken up, no dishes, nothing. And that was very unusual. This wasn't like this lively bustling family. Then they noticed Nancy's purse. It was lying on the kitchen floor. And it was open, like someone had gone through it and then thrown it back down on the floor. So they called for Nancy and they started up the stairs. They saw her bedroom door slightly ajar and they went in blindly. Now Susan later told Strum and Capotee, I don't remember screaming. Nancy says I did.

Scream didn't scream. I only remember Nancy's teddy bear staring at me and Nancy and running. Oh, my God. Yeah. Nancy had been still in her in her bed dressed in her nightcown. She was bound with her hands and feet with cords torn from her curtains, and her face was unrecognizable from a shotgun blast at close range. Blood had spattered all over the room, the walls, the bed, the floor. It was a horror show that these two girls walked in on and their friend. Yeah.

Now by this time, her father Clarence was actually thinking twice about sending the girls into the home alone and felt bad. Yeah. So he had gotten out of the car and was walking towards the house. And he heard those screaming. And he was going to go in there.

He heard them screaming and then saw them running through the kitchen door and back outside. So they told them what they found and he went in to check. He found the same thing. And at this point, he had only found Nancy. They didn't even know that everybody else was in there and they called the sheriff. This was not a normal or run of the mill crime scene, especially not for the county sheriff's office in Holcomb, Kansas. I would not think so.

So Finney County, Kansas, excuse me, so Finney County Sheriff Earl Robinson called in his friend, Alvin Dewey, at the Kansas Bureau of Investigation, the KBI, and asked for assistance because this was big. So as they went through the home, they found Nancy as she was described, and they also found Bonnie with a shotgun blast to the head. When they went to the basement, they found Kenyon still trapped tied to the sofa with a pillow under his head and a shotgun blast to the face. They also found Herb clutter. He seemed to have been tortured,

possibly before being murdered, because he was hung from a pipe in the basement. Oh, his throat was slit and he was shot with the shotgun. And that's awful because then you know Kenyans saw that or heard it or had some knowledge of it. The killers were on the loose and they had a quadruple homicide of an entire family on their hands. So KBI director Logan Sanford assigned an additional 17 investigators to this case. So they immediately believed that this was a home invasion robbery gone wrong, which they were half right. Yeah, sort of. It really was in the grand scheme of things, but they were confused

because they had ransacked the home, but they had left an envelope full of cash on Nancy's bureau. Oh, that was a clean site. Wow. It was cash that was to be donated to church on Sunday. Huh. And somehow I don't know if Herb just didn't know about it or forgot about it in the K-O. But they didn't mention it and they didn't find it. So no jewelry was taken.

Like Herb and Bonnie's gold wedding bands were still on. Or just stupid. Bonnie was wearing a diamond ring that she always wore and it was still on. So they shifted from just a random home invasion and then they thought it might be even a grudge killing where someone had an axe to grind with her clutter and went after his whole family because local business people that herb did work with said they did have slight ill will towards him because of business shit.

Yeah, like you were saying that earlier, but since he was bigger in local politics, it wasn't far fetched to think that someone had targeted. I wonder, I was just kind of thinking while you were talking. I wonder if the reason that one, they didn't write themselves a check into, they didn't steal any jewelry. I mean, it's weird that they didn't take that and they'll look at the cash. But I guess the jewelry and the check could be traced back to them, so maybe they were thinking that.

That's the only thing I could think of, but then I was like, are they that smart? No, because I mean, they did collect the spent shells as they went, but that's like, I feel like anybody could figure that out. I mean, some people don't, I hear a lot of people watching. I was just gonna say, to be honest,

a lot of people don't do that. So I guess that does show a certain level of criminal know-how, I suppose. Yeah. But, yeah, it's strange. But that makes, that's what I thought to when I first thought of the check thing. I was like, well, that could be traced back, obviously. And then, like, if you tried to pawn any of the jewelry for money, a pawn shop in the area, I wouldn't know.

It's true. But then, on the other side of that, they do end up selling the transistor radio and binoculars to get money. At a pawn shop or like? At a, they actually end up going to Mexico. So they could have taken that jewelry and sold it down there.

Yeah. Yeah, I think they're just dumb. I think they're just idiots, to be honest. Now they found very little clues until they went into the basement and found Booprins and Blood on the the cardboard where Smith had laid a herban. One was a boot print with a diamond pattern and was clearly showing the cat's paw brand logo. None of these boots matched the clutter family and so they were sure that they had two killers on the loose because it was a diamond pattern and then one with the cat's paw brands to look on it. So they determined the murder weapon to be a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.

They were also able to determine that the shells used by that particular shotgun were a match for the shells investigators were led to four days later. They were found in a stupidly shallow hole that Perry Smith had buried them in the evening of the murders. Wow. They were easily found because the sheriff's office received a report from a citizen who discovered blood stains on a highway bridge. Oh my god.

And there was only about a quarter of a mile south of the clutter farm. What? And the person called it in and was like, this blood on the highway. Yeah. Like maybe go look at that. Now, very quickly, the murders were top news

all over Holcombe. Oh, of course. People were shocked. Not only did this not happen in a very safe and quiet community, but the clutter family were very well-liked in a very upstanding family. To think they were murdered in their own home by strangers was unthinkable.

So residents started telling reporters that for the first time they bought locks or they even changed the existing ones they had. People started thinking like they never had before. And of course rumors began to swirl that didn't help the panic in chaos. People said that at one point a quote, one time mental patient had must have shown up in town and committed the heinous crime, but obviously no evidence to that. Yes, this is the movie film. Was found?

Yeah. Exactly. Now, November 19th, the funerals were held at the first Methodist Church in Garden City. Hundreds of people showed up to pay their respects. In fact, it was estimated that over 1,000 people attended. All four color family members were in silver closed caskets side by side. The KBI and several officers from the Sheriff's Department were there because they were friends with Herb. Obviously, they were working a case, but they were there purely because they were literally friends with him. When they walked into that crime scene, they were seeing their friend

in a family that they were very close with. I can't imagine that. And I can't imagine a funeral with an entire family laid out in caskets next to each other before you. Like, think of a funeral alone when one person has passed four people, like, and a family and in that way, just lay out upon layer of devastation. It makes me think of the Liska Axe murders or the hitter kyfek murder. Axe murders, it's like, when a whole family at once.

I was on the one that you covered one time. At first, I was like, oh my gosh, I was like, did you already cover this? But then this one, yes, similarly. The Lawson family. Yes. That's the one. was on the Christmas day. Yep.

Yeah, in like North Carolina. Yeah, and they were farmers, right? Yeah, and I think Arthur the older son is the only one that survived. It's a similar vibe of like an entire family. Right. Yeah, it's awful. It really is. And again, these KBI agents and the Sheriff's Department officers were friends to this

family and to Herb. Like, this was awful. This sucked. But they were also there to look for any signs of the killer showing up at the funeral, as they sometimes do. A lot of time. They were laid to rest at Fairview Cemetery. Now very shortly after the murders became local news, it went national.

Herb was in national politics, and also the crime was just not something seen very often at this time. It was heinous and brutal, and to have again a whole family snuffed out in the middle of the night and their home was unthinkable. So Sally Keglivitz pointed out, that's, I mentioned her publication earlier, and we'll link it in the show notes. She points out murder of this magnitude just didn't happen to farm families in the heart land of America.

No. So there was a brief moment in November 20th where they thought they may have found their killers. They pulled over two men traveling to Hoysington, Kansas from Hoysington, Kansas to Louisiana for work. These men, Marion Livingston and E..L. Gray were suspicious in the context of what had happened in the area. Okay.

Okay. When they were pulled over, they had a loaded shotgun, and a loaded 32 caliber pistol in the car with them. They were questioned, but they obviously denied having anything to do with the clutter family murders and found to have zero connection with it, and they were cleared. But when they were pulled over initially and arrested, they thought they had their guys. Oh, that sucks. Now a few days after the killings, Floyd Wells heard the news one afternoon while he was listening to the radio at the Kansas State Penitentiary. He was drawn to it, but didn't want to make any kind of connection to it. You know, anything about what Dick had said or Dick's obsession, he just heard that the clutter family had been murdered, Floyd. And he was like,

I don't want to have anything to do with that. Now, looks like his conscience did get the best of him though, because after two weeks of stewing on the very obvious connection, he decided he needed to unload his burden. So he made a plan, but his plan was to be called out to the warden's office under a false pretense. Like he made something happen that he would have to be called there. Because he doesn't want to be a snitch. He didn't want to be seen as snitching on the other inmates.

So this way, it looked like he was in trouble and not that he wanted to talk to the warden. It's not wild. Pretty fucking fun. That's like a whole entire family not murdered and I know about it. But I don't want to look like a snitch. Like they're snitching and then there's just being a moral human, being a human with morals.

But unfortunately, he would have got got. Oh, 100%. No, it was wild to think about it. He would have got got because he was like, hey, I know the guy that took out an entire fucking family. Yeah, for nothing. Now once they were alone in the warden's office, he told the whole story about the safe and the clutter farm and how he had told it all to Dick Hickock and he said, quote,

I distinctly remember Mr. Clutter paying a large lumber bill and I thought he paid it in cash with money from the safe. He didn't. I thought being the keywords. The reason I remember is because Mr. Clutter made the remark to me that evening when we left his den, he'd paid out more than $10,000 that day. I described the location of the house. I suspect I talked too much about the money Mr. Clutter had.

Hickock talked a lot about Perry Smith. Said after they got out of the joint, they could pull some jobs to get enough money for a down payment on a boat. They would run a charter service for Deepsea Fisherman and eventually make contacts and use the boat to bring in narcotics. I didn't believe Hickok, but he kept talking about it. I tried to talk him out of it, said he would get caught, but he said he had a plan, and after the robbery would kill everyone there and leave no witnesses.

So, you're a witness, though, buddy. This was huge. This was the first real lead in the case. Now they had the names of the two very viable suspects and very likely suspects. I'm glad that he ended up having that change apart. Now, do we and the other agents of the KBI started a huge manhunt for the two men led by Harold and I, who was a KBI agent at the time. They first went into both of their criminal records and were able to use those to lead to family members and other known associates to try to track down their movements. Now on December 9, 1959, I and a team of KBI agents arrived at the Hickok Funt Family Farm with a warrant to search the premises.

There, they recovered that hunting knife and the savage pump action shotgun that was the murder weapon of the at the clutter family massacre. They went into high gear now because Smith and Hickok were nowhere to be found. They had only gone to the they had gotten the warrant. Searched they found those things they didn't find those two. Were they in New Mexico at this point? At this point, they had no idea that they had fled the fucking country. Yep. They went to Mexico after the murders. There they stole, they sold the stolen car they used to get to the clutter farm. And they sold whatever items they had stolen from the house.

And after this, they ran out of money pretty quickly. And so they returned to the US where they spent sometimes stealing more cars and just driving around trying to figure out how to get more money. Even coming back to Kansas and stealing more money and caching bad checks for good men at measure. So they that was not exactly the check thing. They were given them too much credit for real. Then they left the state again. But on December 30th, two Las Vegas police officers happened to spot a car that they remembered as matching the description of a stolen car

described in an APB. And it was only a couple days earlier, there was an APB that went out about a stolen car. So they pulled the car over thinking it would be pretty routine, but it was anything but because inside the car was thinking it would be pretty routine. But it was anything but because inside the car was the real life versions of the mug shots that have been distributed all over the news. Dick Hickock and Perry Smith sat in this 1956 Chevy that was indeed stolen. Wow. So shockingly, both of them were arrested without incident. Weirdly

interesting. And brought back to Finley County, Kansas, where they were placed in separate jail cells. Hickock pretty quickly tried to pin the entirety of the blame on Smith. Of course. Four days later, Dick Hickock and Perry Smith were charged with four counts of felony murder for the killings of Herbert, Bonnie, Nancy, and Kenyan clutter. Now shortly after their arrest, news outlets around the country said that they were caught and everybody could breathe a collective sigh of relief. They called Richard, weak-faced Richard Hickock. They called Perry Smith Runtie and that the two broke down under questioning and confessed

to murdering the clutter family because they didn't want any witnesses. Damn. They did indeed confess. There was a time, like I said, when Dick decided to pin the entire thing on Perry Smith, but they admitted to what happened. They both just look like assholes. Idiots. Now, trial was set for March 22, 1960, and Judge Roland Green would be presiding. He immediately denied the request to have them tried separately,

which is a boss move in my opinion. They didn't need to get the opportunity to blame, to pin the blame on the other one again in a separate trial. I totally see that. This is when she gets strange. So they kept them separated at all times, so they couldn't concoct any kind of story to help anything.

Of course, smart. But Perry Smith was held in what is known as the lady's cell in the courthouse. Not real sure why it's called that. Now, 1960, in 1960, the Garden City Sheriff's Office was contained within the Finney County courthouse with the sheriff's residence being located next door. Okay. So it was very near the holding cell where Smith was being held, the residents of the sheriff. Right.

Earl Robinson, the sheriff, already had a home in Holcomb. So he didn't want to live in the sheriff's residence. So he offered the sheriff's residence that was next to the Finney County Courthouse to the under sheriff. Okay. He was like right underneath him. His name was Wendell, exactly.

And his wife's name was Josephine or Josie. That's nice of him. Now weirdly, because of the way the cells and the interior walls of the now under Sheriff's residents were placed, Smith was able to see into the home at times. What? Yeah. And Josie, the wife, actually ended up taking a liking to Perry Smith, a man who killed an entire family, including a 16 year old girl and a 15 year old boy.

The sheriff was not happy about this whole thing because at first she was basically like thought he was like, oh, like poor him. Like he's such a sad, a sad tale. I don't get it. Poor him. She's, poor him. He murdered a whole lot family ma'am. I don't get that, like I don't get that kind of thing,

but like that kind of thing. Like what even is that? I mean, like I don't get, like I'm sure part of this was religious in some way. This is a very religious community. I'm sure she was a church going gal, and I'm sure she felt like forgiveness needed to be placed. I feel like murder's like a really big sin, Chika.

I don't think that. I know of that is for you are correct, 100%. And that's why I personally don't understand the forgiveness thing in that sense, or be on that kind to this kind of person. No. Maybe that's where it came from with her is all I'm trying to say. Like, I don't understand it.

So I think I'm trying to find some kind of, oh yeah. Some kind of like, why would you be nice to this man? Like I don't understand that. I think she was nice to him because she found him to be attractive. It kind of seems like that, but who knows. I don't get it. The sheriff was not happy with their like relationship here No, and insisted she stay away from him, but she saw him as a

Sort of lost boy who had a rough go in life. Gurley girl. Yeah, they ended up spending a ton of time together. She would make his fucking lunch and eat it with him Girl seek help Thank you. I'm not even sorry. That's ridiculous. He murdered children and their parents. He murdered an entire family for no fucking reason whatsoever. Not that there is a reason, but of course not.

But not even a reason for him. Like for a transistor radio. Get $40. Making a murderer's lunch and eating it with him. Get that I don't get. And it's like, you are the under Sheriff's wife. What the fuck is wrong with you? You chose the wrong husband, girl.

Yeah, like you chose the wrong path. Or maybe that's why she chose him. I don't know. Maybe she had a thing for bad boys. Who knows? This is more than just like a bad boy. But what's Perry Smith actually wrote in his journals about how much, how kind she was

and how like he really liked her. Of course. She was kind to a fault in my opinion. Oh, I mean, that might say. That's just me. No, yeah. But I don't get it. These are all opinions, but like, why we cause how we?

Yeah, exactly. Cause remember, let me just, in case you're sitting there going, well, yeah, Perry Smith had such a sad childhood and like he was too young to go for it. He wasn't going kill anybody over it. These are cold blooded killers and they proved it again and again. Dick Hickock said later that he remembered hearing a gurgling noise coming from her

after his throat was cut. And to police, he said about Smith, he just cut the hell out of them. So this is who we're talking about. Exactly. That's what he said. Like I think we can get rid of the whole life. Turkey sandwiches with the crust cut off. That poor guy, I think we can. And his upbringing, like again, feel bad for the kid.

Sure, totally. I feel terrible for the kid. I don't feel bad for the adult. Plenty of people have abusive childs. Childs, and that's fucking awful. And you don't get to do all of them go out and kill people about. You don't get to go murder someone about it. No, if anything, it should make you want to be a better person in life and like, hopefully a better parent or yeah, to break a cycle. Now, I'm so mad. And I know,

an army friend of Perry Smith's named Don Cullivan visited him in prison, and he was told the entire graphic detail of the crime. And he said that Smith said about her, her, her, herb clutter, excuse me. He told him, quote, as I pulled the trigger, there was a flash of blue light. I could see his head split apart. That's what he told this man, as Josie is over there cutting the crust off his sandwich. Yeah, exactly. So just put just make sure we're all on the same page. And she's like, you know, if it weren't for his shitty childhood,

that's a loss. So lost. So lost. A lost soul. But of course, Hickok and Smith's attorneys were gun hoe about getting an insanity defense. And in the 1960s, the predominant test for sanity in criminal proceedings was the McNaughton test. It was originally established in the 1840s, so already, it's timely and very relevant to the 60s even. And it was standard, but it was a standard by which someone was deemed

to be sane during the commission of a criminal act, as long as they understood the Act is illegal and are considered by society to be morally wrong. Yeah. Of course, now we know it's outdated and ignores all nuance of psychology and emotional state during criminal acts, but whatever. So the attorneys, Harrison Smith and AM Fleming

filed a motion for their clients to undergo a mental status exam, which is pretty normal. The court appointed three general practitioners, John O Austin MD, RJ Maxfield MD, and Gust H Nelson MD. Gust? Gust or Gust? I'm not really sure how you think. I feel like Gust.

Gust, Nelson. They performed the evaluation. They all said that both killers were sane at the time of committing the act. But I guess it's kind of important to note that at this time Kansas law apparently only allowed the evaluation to be submitted as either yes they are sane or no they are not. So any, you don't get any kind of insight or any kind of nuance to any of this. Just yep, they were sane. It's just like circle yes or circle no. this. Just yep, they were saying it's just like circle, yes, or circle, no.

Literally. That's literally what it was. It was yes or no, the end. Color of the months. No psychology, nothing behind it. Just an interesting little thing, but they were sane. So weirdly, this trial was short and uneventful, considering how huge this case was.

I mean, they had the murder weapons taken from Hickok's farm, boots matching the prints found in blood on the cardboard in the clutter house basement next to Herbsbody, and also the other items they had found buried next to the highway. Also, both of them confessed. They did it verbally, but not written. But neither one of them were denying what they did or how they did it. So it was pretty much a slam dunk. So of course, it was going to be pretty so short and sweet. Right. The prosecution began their opening statements by describing in graphic detail

how they methodically tortured, psychologically and physically and murdered the entire clutter family and reminded them all that they had about a million chances to stop and leave these people alive, but they chose to keep going further and further. Exactly. In fact, they pointed to keep going further and further. Exactly. In fact, they pointed to the fact that when the light came on before they even entered

the house, they considered leaving and they didn't. This really hammered in the idea that this was intentional murder and not just a robbery gone wrong. Yeah. And it didn't go wrong. They woke her up. They said, where's your safe? He said, I don't have one of those.

Do you want to check? That's as good as a robbery can go. I, in my opinion your safe? He said, I don't have one of those. Do you want to check? That's as good as a robbery can go. I, in my opinion, like, oh no, I don't have a safe. You're mistaken. I'll just give you money. Right. Like, that's not a robbery gone wrong. And you're going in there for this soul sake of robbing.

You'd say, yeah, I'll take that check. Bye. Like, don't say anything or I'll kill your whole family. Bye. Like, I'm pretty sure he would have been like, don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. So the second day of the trial was reserved

for a trip to the clutter home, to the crime scene, during which the jury was given a tour of the entire thing and they could ask questions, they were shown things. The press spoke to the killer's families during the trial. And it gave a little insight into the reality of these kind of crimes and the myriad of people they affect even past the first degree victims in the case, which a lot of people don't think about. When asked for a comment about his son's prospects with the jury, Walter Hickock said to a reporter, they'll both get the rope. And that was his

dad, which is like sad. And this was Dick Hickock's dad who like, they weren't abusive. Right. Exactly. And he's probably just like, why did they like order this one? Yeah. And they were in very frail health, health his parents, Dick's parents, and they were at the courtroom every single day for the trial. They maintained their sons innocence from the very beginning. They probably just had to for their own sense. It was just hope. In fact, his dad said, Dick didn't do the killing. He told me that the first time I saw him,

he had nothing to do with it. So he's just going by, like, keep my son told me, didn't do it. Right. Now, interestingly, it was these kinds of comments and the sight of Dick's frail parents being so distraught that their son could have possibly done this. That made Perry Smith actually do another weird thing for a cold blooded killer.

He attempted to recant his confession, but not saying he didn't do it. He recanted the part where he claimed that he and Hickok had each killed two members of the clutter family. He now wanted to say that he killed them all. Interesting. The judge denied his attempt to recant, and later Smith said he only attempted to do that because he didn't want Dick's parents to quote,

go to their graves thinking their son was a killer. It's weird because he does have some level of compassion. It's your willy-string to go away for your entire life. And like when you know full well that this other person had just as much as a hand of it in that, the new did, excuse me. Like that's a level of compassion. Yeah. And why could you not look at that family

and have that same compassion? That's the thing. That's where my, it does not compute for me because I also think back and I'm like, okay, so Josie, the Shared Thundershare of Swife, I'm like, maybe that's Josie, the undershare of Swife, I'm like, maybe that's the kind of shit she was hearing and that's the kind of shit she was seeing. And it was bending her mind a little bit to be like, could this guy have done this?

You know what I mean? Like, she seems, so like, I mean, these are like people in Kansas in the 1950s. Yeah, this is the woman, a woman in Kansas in the 1950s. Yeah, this is a woman. It's a woman, a woman in Kansas in the 1950s. She's not being fed the kind of education that we are now. And it's like, you know what I mean? So it's like, she's like a good church going a housewife. Right.

She's not like it worldly. It's like, so she's hearing this guy be like, saying these kind of things, you know what I mean? Which I'm sure he was able to say some things that sounded very compassionate and very empathetic. And maybe that's why she was drawn to be kind to him. Yeah, no, you're not. I get it.

I'm trying to find some kind of way around that, but I think he was very good at showing those kind of things, but I'm just having trouble with the, like, what are you feeling? What are you really feeling? Like do you, do you feel that way? You have compassion for this guy's elderly parents. So what the, what the fuck?

Like how is it, how does it only go that far? I don't know if it's like he had compassion. Maybe it was like more compassion for Dick. Maybe his parents were struggling and then maybe the reason why he was able to kill the clutter family is because like, that family represented everything he didn't have. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I'm sure there's some deep psychology involved in this, but it's a very interesting, he prosecution called Floyd Wells to the stand. Oh, shit.

Wells told the jury all about the information he had given Hickok about the wealthy clutter family and the safe and said he initially assumed Dick was just going to apply for a job at the clutter farm when he was released. Yeah. Which I'm like, no, you didn't. But he said about two weeks before he was scheduled

to be released. That's when Dick started talking about robbing the family to buy the boat. So he was like, at first I thought he just wanted a job. Maybe. Who knows? But then he admitted a couple of weeks before

that's when he really went into high gear saying he was going to rob them. And I didn't know what to do. And the prosecution asked Wells if Hickok made it known that he intended to commit some kind of active violence along with this. And Wells said, quote, he told me he'd tie them up, rob them, and kill them. Boom. Boom.

So in a desperate move, Dick Hickock released a handwritten note to the press, and he got it there through his mother, his mother delivered it to the press. And in that letter, it said that Wells had been in on the plan all along. I believe that. And he said, Wells made a diagram of the clutter home and how to get to it. And the note said, if the job amounted to $5,000, well, it was to get $1,000. I mean, that's the thing.

How would they have gotten there in the first place? I think that too. Like, but I know he definitely had some involvement in it. I don't know when he was set to be released. That's the only thing. That I'm like, when was he getting out of Joe? But maybe it was just that like, maybe he thought he'd get out of jail early and he'd be a full

part of the plan, but because he gave them the diagram and the information in the first place, he was due to a good guy. Exactly. Kind of cut. Yeah, it's a strange, but then I'm like, but I don't believe Dick either. I don't believe Dick, but just based on the fact that he told the Wells told him that the clutter family had this money in the first place. Well, and it's also, I mean, I think this was kind of a lot of this, what he says is a lie, a lot of what Dick says is lies. Yeah. He, the death penalty was on the table here, and he really didn't want to die. Of course. And I think he was really doing

Hail Mary's at the end to try to get anything. And I think he was really doing Hail Mary's at the end to try to get anything. And I think he was pissed when Floyd Wells got on that stand and said that so. It absolutely could be true, but I'm more inclined to say that Dick is a lying sack of shit. I think I believe that Wells had at least more to do with this than just the information

of they had that money. Yeah. Oh, I think he gave him a ton of information about the farm, about everything. I think that the diagram is true. I think he gave him a ton of information about the farm, about everything, about her diagram is true. I think he gave them all that stuff. And I think, but I don't know how far that went. And who knows? Yeah. That's the thing. Now, a few days later, Dick also gave the Topeka Daily Capitol news journal, a journalist from that. His name was Ron Cole. He gave him a statement from that in the paper, ran it on, ran it at the day after Wells's testimony.

And in this, it said, and this is from Dick Hickock, quote, I'm sorry for what I did, but I can't undo what's already been done. But if killing me would bring them back, I'd just walk up there right now and tell them to go ahead, but it won't. He also said he wasn't getting a fair trial. He said KBI agents lied on the stand

about his confession in Las Vegas. And he said, quote, they got the confession by whipping me on my head with their fists and black jacks for about an hour. Well, you also tormented a man before you killed him. Every word of this letter is a lie. Yeah. He lied. Like he's lying section. I bet. It was just to avoid the death penalty. That's all it was. He was interviewed a ton of times since he returned from Las Vegas right after he returned from Las Vegas. Not one bruise was seen on him. Not one bit of evidence of a beating could be seen.

And one that he claimed he received for over an hour with black jacks and fists. He would be black and purple and blue. Like, not one bruise was found on this man's body. No. No. Now it was also definitely being put out there to aid their appeals later. All of this was because following their conviction obviously Dick and Smith filed an appeal claiming, you know, their rights had been violated, the whole being denied separate trials, things, the judge refused to allow evidence, you know, of the psychiatric evaluations that would have helped them all the shit that's like, fuck off.

Y'all, we found the hunting knife in your possession. Y'all, you confessed to it. Like, you confessed. Or that's it. That's it. Pretty much it. The trial concluded on March 29, 1960, the jury deliberated for 40 minutes and found both men guilty of the crimes.

I bet. They both exhausted their appeals. And finally, they were sentenced to die by hanging on Wednesday, April 14, 1965. On that day, their attorneys made one last day plea for mercy to the US Supreme Court on their behalf. It got denied and denied and denied right up until the last second. It was just this Byron White who oversaw the 10th District US Circuit Court at the time. He was the one who denied the final state of execution and declined any comment about it, just denied. Bye. I feel like this doesn't need a comment.

Do you see what happened on that farm? Well, it's like denied. That's all you need to do. No, I denied. Like I picture him like stamping the denied. Now a few minutes after midnight on April 14, 1965, Dick Hickock and Perry Smith were hanged at the Kansas State Penitentiary in Lansing.

For his final words, Perry Smith took the opportunity to condemn capital punishment completely. He said, I think it is a hell of a thing that a life has to be taken in this manner. Go fuck yourself. I say this especially because there's a great deal I could have offered society. I certainly think capital punishment is legally and morally wrong. Yep, just like murder. You had stuff you could have offered society? That whole family was offering society. Shit ton.

Yeah, exactly. Why did you never offer society anything? And the hell would you see like 29, 30? Yeah. He was like, you had plenty of years to offer society a bunch of shit and all you did was steal, lie, cheat, and kill. No, so go fuck yourself. And it's like, we're talking about morals right now. And like I said, I've said it forever that I'm like leaning more towards

like against death penalty and I sat in a gray area forever, but I'm leaning way more on that side of like, and I don't think it's a great thing. But I also think it's fucking ridiculous for a cold blooded murderer of an entire family to go up there and see that. Just stand up there and be like, guys, this is wrong. It's like, yeah, no shit, asshole.

That's the whole thing is wrong. Like, you're wrong. Yeah. Like, this whole thing is wrong. You killed an entire family. You can't tell me about morals and ethics and all that shit and kill an entire family. Now Dick Hickock said he didn't want to say any final words, but then he was like, actually I do at the last second because he's just annoying up until the very end.

And in his final moments, he said that the KBI agents who arrested him, he said that they were like, it was their fault. This was all on them. And then he said, you're sending me to a better place than this. And then he shook each of their hands and said, goodbye. Wow. So Hickok and Smith were buried on the prison grounds.

And several years later, there was an expansion of the prison plan. So their bodies actually had to be exhumed and relocated. Oh, shit. To Mount Muncie Cemetery in Leavenworth County. And actually Truman Capote purchased headstones for both men, but they were both stolen. So, fuck, so weird. Speaking of Truman Capote, in 1958, Capote had the idea to create what he called the first nonfiction novel, in which he was looking to take a real event and turn it into kind of a story.

Now he just couldn't find the right subject, and that is until he saw an article in the November 16th, 1959, New York Times that talked about a farmer and his entire family who were murdered in their homes in Holcomb, Texas. I don't know why I keep saying Texas, I'm sorry. I'm all due with that. He went to Garden City, yeah, like it sounds the same. He went to Garden City before Hickock and Smith had even been caught.

And along with his friend, you might know this name Harper Lee. I don't know. Yeah, it doesn't ring though. That one I know. I promise you guys, Harper Lee was that one. A fellow author. They began a real investigative deep dive into the clutter's lives and horrifically tragic deaths.

Now, Capote stuck out like a sore thumb in Kansas. If you look at my- I was just gonna do that. He was New York High Society, even though he was raised in the deep south. Oh. But he was very much New York High Society. He was very out there York high society. He's very like he was very out

though. Very exuberant. Like you would you would know him in a crowd. He looks like a cool guy. Yeah, he was cool. So he spent months and months speaking to everyone in Holcomb. It's really spending time getting to know the community around the clutters and everyone who ever knew them. He assured them all that he was planning to write a factual account of the crime. And he was planning to write a factual account of the crime, and he wanted it to be from the perspectives of the people in and around Holcomb in the community. He made an impression. But apparently, when In Cold Blood was finally published in 1965, people in Holcomb and Garden City were like a little confused. Uh-oh.

So, in 2009, his friend and author, you might know this name, Alan Schwartz, great author, wrote, it is different than what they expected. It is not simply a matter of historical reporting. I can imagine that a lot of people who were freaked out by what happened in the middle of Kansas never understood that. So the problem people found with the work was that they felt it bordered on fiction. The clutter family felt like with all he put into getting to know the clutter and talking with all of them, he didn't put nearly enough of them in the book. They were not happy. And others said he

got things completely wrong, which they were like he just fabricated things. In fact, in 2019, Gary McAvoy and Ronald Ney, who was the son of KBI agent Harold Ney. Oh, shit. He published a book promoting a bunch of new theories and really like going against a lot of Capote's ideas that were from the book. Now, still, there were many others in Holcomb and Garden City who appreciated the time and consideration that Capappodian Harper paid to the residents there.

Fielding hands, a friend of the clutter family, said, quote, I think he did the family justice for the things he said about them and what they did for the community. Susan Kidwell, who was one of the two girls to discover the bodies, she said, yeah, the book has some factual inaccuracies and it's definitely like fiction in some parts, but she said she had very positive experiences with Truman Capote as a person. She said, quote, to me, he was very nice and very polite and I respected his work.

I never felt that he was trying to use us in any way. Okay. And I think that's what the, where we're such like people sit in that gray area with it is. Uh-huh. He went into it saying he wanted to make a nonfiction novel. He went into it saying he wanted to write a story about a real event. So he didn't go in there with like total, you know, being like, I'm just going to straight report this. Yeah. But if you're going to do a nonfiction novel, I don't think it should be about a murder. Like, I don't think you should choose the event that you should choose should be

one like this. Because there's just a lot of a lot of stuff. Yeah. And that. So if you're going to do something about a real event, like the clutter family murders, just report on it. Just write the story of it. Right. If you want to do a more narrative fictionalized version, maybe just choose an event that doesn't hold such high stakes. Yeah. Like that. You know what I mean? Emotions. And I truly don't believe in my opinion. This is just my opinion. I truly don't believe Truman Capote went in there trying to fuck people's lives up. And it looks like somebody would, I would hope somebody would, and... Well, and it looks like a lot of people

who interact with him said they never had a bad experience with him and he seemed like he was a kind, respectful person who really did want to create something amazing and he did create something amazing. The book itself is amazing. It's like heart-wrenching, it's like harrowing, it's a lot of things. What do you know what the parts are

that people feel are fictionalized, or are fictionalized? I think it's just little details. I'm not exactly sure what pieces are. Okay. I do encourage people to read it because I think it's a very fascinating book and I think it's a very fascinating book and I think he like it's

very well written, but I can see why some people are like, I'm not into the creative license. Yeah, I get that. I get that. I get that. I get to take creative license and true crime and I don't necessarily think it's something you should do personally. Well, and I think this was from what like 65, you know what I mean? So there's such a different era.

Such a different era. And such a different time. To point this out, he had never done this before. No. So this had never been done. Of course, it's not gonna go off without a hitch. Of course not. It's the inaugural one of these kind of genres.

You know, like he created the show. So it's like, yeah, there's gonna be some hiccups here. And from the looks of it, a lot of people that you hear, like I said, don't have bad things to say about him as a person, even if they didn't necessarily like the book that came out of it. He was a person or really him as an investigator. No, because he did go out of his way

to spend a ton of time and hold him and talk to everybody. He also talked to the killers. Like he talked to, there was all of that. So if you want to read it or you want to read up on it, it's a very interesting story of how the book came to be. I see that there's a Rolling Stone article about the book. Yeah. Go take a peek at it.

Like read that, like just so you can get some more information about the book and the whole process. I think it's a very interesting story behind the actual bookmaking. But either way, in Cold Blood is considered by many to be a masterpiece of crime reporting in narrative nonfiction. All right.

So it was actually adapted into a feature film in 1967 and for television in 1966. So the clutter house and farmland were auctioned off in March of 1960. Then sold again, and I think the mid to late 1960s to a rancher named Bob, Bob Bird. Taurus still flocked to Holcomb just to see the places mentioned in the book, but a lot has changed since then. I bet.

Like they want to go see the house. They want to go see where it all happened. Is it crazy that that's really closer to a hundred years ago? Yeah, I know it's in that wild. It really is crazy. Most people who are still around from the original crime who are in the community or new the family or part of the family, they don't really want to speak about it anymore.

I get that. I don't ask them about it. Yeah, I don't want to talk about it. Let those people rest in peace. Yeah. They really, some people want Holcomb to just be left alone. And others are like, it's fine. This happened.

Well, I'm sure they're like, okay, Holcomb is more than just this tragedy. That's exactly it. Yeah. But they did memorialize the clutter family with a park in Holcomb. Okay. And in 2009, the Hol comb city council put up a memorial for them in town, but the memorial only discusses their lives and accomplishments as a family.

I think that's awesome. It does not talk about their deaths. I think that's awesome. Which I think is a really good way of memorializing them. Yeah. It's by not even mentioning what happened. Mm-hmm. Everybody knows.

Everybody knows, obviously. So it's like it's nice that there's a memorial that is just about who they were as people and who they were to the community and as a family. Yeah, definitely. So that is the terrible story of the clutter family murders or the in-cold blood murder, so it's sometimes known.

Truly a heroin case. And truly. The more and more you were going through, or like in the beginning I expected to know this, because it in-cold blood sounded really familiar to me. But then when you were going through it, or in the beginning I expected to know this, because it incaled blood sounded really familiar to me. But then when you were going through this, I actually don't think I've heard of this case. That's so funny.

I don't think so anyway. Interesting. You know what though? I'm sure a lot of people probably in your age group, and younger, probably don't know about it either, because as you just said, this is much longer ago than it was when I started reading about these things. Right.

Like I started reading about these things in what like the 20 years ago, like the late 1990s, early 2000s, it was much, much closer to the 1960s. Right. Like now, that is pretty far removed. It is definitely. Which is just like interesting now to think about that far. That is I know and it's weird that we have we obviously have such different experiences and well being interested in true crime like you know so many of those earlier cases

that I'm just like I've never heard of that. I'll be like what you don't know that but then when I actually think about it I'm like well yeah I guess she doesn't know that because she was not even born when that was even a, yeah, that's weird. But it's funny because we're only 10 years apart. And when you think about it, 10 years is not very much, but 10 years really makes all the difference. It does.

It's crazy. That's the that on that. That's the that on that. I really like the way that you told that story. Thank you. Thanks for telling me. I appreciate that. And go check out that, like any of the Rolling Stone articles or anything about the book

and stuff. I'm sure people have written like any of the Rolling Stone articles or anything about the book and stuff. I'm sure people have written like awesome stuff about how they came to be and all that background. Totally. I love the Rolling Stone. I don't know what it is. There's some great ones out there. They're on.

And Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair. Yeah, I do a good Johnity Fair. That's great. Well, with all that being said, guys, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But that's everything to her eyes and entire family

and then talk that the death penalty is not right? Yeah, I don't do that. I'm confused. No. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

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