Morbid - Episode 445: The Murder of Kelly Ann Tinyes

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

Kelly Ann Tinyes was at home babysitting her eight-year-old brother, Richie, on the afternoon of March 3, 1989 when the phone rang. Richie answered, talking briefly to the man on the other end of the line, before handing the phone to his sister, telling her it was someone named “John.” After a short conversation with “John,” Kelly hung up the phone and left the house around 3:15 pm, telling her brother she was going to her friend’s house down the street and would be right back. It was the last time Kelly’s family would see her alive.Thank you to the prodigious David White for research assistance :)ReferencesAssociated Press. 1990. "Sex motive charged in girl's slaying." The Journal News, February 16: 18.Bessent, Alvin. 1989. "Defense lawyer thrown off LI murder case." Newsday, October 3: 47.Danney, Micah. 2015. "Tinyes girl's killer denied parole." Long Island Herald, November 18.Lyall, Sarah. 1990. "Blood tests link Golub to crime scene." New York Times, March 1: B2.—. 1990. "Golub Case: Main Puzzle Is the Suspect." New York Times, March 5: B1.—. 1990. "Marks on body not from bites, dentist testifies." New York Times, March 23: B4.Milton, Pat. 1989. "Teen's murder transforms quiet L.I. neighborhood." The Journal News, March 26: 77.Mulugeta, Samson. 1997. "Drug case brings echo of murder." Newsday, March 23: 29.New York Times. 1978. "Not guilty verdict finds killer insane." New York Times, April 27: D21.Nieves, Evelyn. 1998. "What Happened on Horton Road." New York Times, May 31.Pearlman, Shirley, and Elizabeth Wasserman. 1989. "Tempers flare as murder hearing begins." Newsday, August 15: 61.Pearlman, Shirley, and Phil Mintz. 1989. "What cops say Golub told them." Newsday, August 15: 3.People v. Robert Golub. 1993. 196 A.D.2d 637 (Nassau County Appeals Court, August 23).Watkins, Ronald J. 2000. Against Her Will: The Senseless Murder of Kelly Ann Tinyes. Syracuse, NY: Pinnacle Books.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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than the national average savings rate. Apply for your Apple card now in the wallet app on iPhone and start growing your daily cash with savings today. Apple card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Remember FDIC? National Average Savings Rate is from FDIC website, Terms Apply. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this is morbid. This is morbid and we got even more soundproofing equipment. I know we got like this cool like Fomy thing in front of us. I can't see anything though and it feels weird. I know it's so weird to be like professional

It's like we're in our own personal miniature sound booth. It's like a sound booth for ants. It is a sound booth for ants Did you see the latest episode? Because this is now a Vanderpump Rules podcast. Love it. It's not. But did you see the latest episode where Katie quoted Zoolander? I did. I thought of you.

I love that. I appreciate that. I love Zoolander. It was such a niche reference. Funny to this day. Funneh-he-he. And as soon as I see David Bowie say, it's a walk-off.

It's, I'm over. I'm done. I'm deceased. I made a weird noise. We watched it recently, John and I. Did you? Because we just were like, we need some zoolander in our life.

Yeah. I just really wanted to see Alexander Skarsgard yell orange mocha frappuccino. You could have just started up. It stopped at start. You could have just stopped at Skarsgard, but I needed to see the orange mocha frappuccino. You could have got frappuccino stopped at start. You could have just started. It stopped at start, but I needed to see the orange mocha frappuccino.

Oh, great. Got frappuccino. And then the gasoline fight the best. And then, um, but as soon as David Bowie came on the screen and it goes, let's dance in the background. I squealed and John was like, I've never heard that sound. He was like, I really do. It meant from you.

No, how to feel about that. Are you all right? What's going on? I was like, he's just so handsome. And he was so handsome in that era. Oh my God, I know. He was so handsome all over the place. It's like when you cried at the last of us

and none of us knew what to do. Yeah, guys. I don't know if you're not watching that show, I was like against it. Cause I just, I'm like, I'm so, I don't know, apocalypse stuff like stresses me out. At this point, everyone in their mother is telling me to watch it.

But my mother, Jonathan Van Ness, told me to watch it. Right. You're Jonathan Van Ness told you that you have to. I know. That's the thing. It's one of those shows that I was really like, no, I don't want to get into this cause I don't want to get into an apocalyptic one. I watched the first episode and I was like, this no, I don't wanna get into this cause I don't wanna get into an apocalyptic one.

I watched the first episode and I was like, this is all right. Yeah, because I was being a dick. Like that's just like the first time I watched Zulin. Yeah, I was just being a dick. I just wouldn't watch it. Then I watched the second episode and I was like, well fuck, now I care about these people.

And by the third episode, I was ugly crying and Snot was running down my face. Is the third episode that episode? Oh yes, and you saw, I was threatening John. I was literally sitting on the couch being like, I cannot fucking believe you. Can confirm. Because John had watched it before me.

So he knew what was happening. And so he filmed me. Yeah. Maybe I should, maybe I'll post it at some point, just because it's hilarious. I know, Elena like doesn't cry. I don't really funny to see that. So it would be pretty funny. I know Elena like doesn't cry so it's really funny to see that. So it would be pretty funny, you know what, maybe all posted.

Wait, because it's pretty funny, I will say. I had real emotions and I know a lot of people don't think I have real emotions so I think it would be good for people to see. No, you do have real emotions. I've seen so much of them recently. They happen. I've seen them. You've seen them, I've seen them.

You've seen them. I've seen your emotions. You know them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them,

you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you see them, you I love saying the front bottoms, but I was just wondering if we could talk about your family. New additions.

Yeah, no, I am not pregnant. But I was so... Wait, why did I think you were pregnant the other day? Because I said I have some news. Yes, John and I have some news. She said I have some news. And I almost shat myself because I have a couple more years before Bebys. And I thought you could hold me over.

And you are just in a different way. And a different way because it's been over a year. Now since we lost our beloved Bubba, our beloved Bailey. And we had these two little red fox labrador puppies fall into our lap, born on Bubba's birthday. Born on Bailey's birthday and we had 365 days of the year and they were born on Bailey's birthday.

If that isn't Bailey sending those dogs to us, I don't know what is. And they say that like your next dog, or your previous dog sends you your next dog or dog. Now I'm fully convinced. That's pretty. That's pretty shell shocked when we found that out. And we were like, there are. We have to have them.

And we found them, found out about them, like in the almost wake of a tragedy. Yeah. So it all kind of lined up and there are two gals. Are you gonna say their names? Yeah. You got it. We got Sydney.

Hello, Sydney. The Sydney Prescott. And now every time I see her, I can say, I always had. You got it. We got Sydney. Hello, Sydney. The Sydney press got and now every time I see her, I can say, I always had a thing for you. It's Sid's and she does. And I do. And the other one is Blanche. And Blanche is a wily little bit. Blanche Deverell is really, she's a feisty one.

I love. I was, I only know it was like back and forth with names. And when she was going to get them, I texted, and she was like, oh my God, I got them. And I was like, what are the names? And she was like, you have to wait because one of them I want to tell you in person, and it was bland.

So I knew one was said, and then I was like, what is this other talk's name gonna be? Miss Blanch over there. And I love them both with, I would be beautiful. I would jump in front of a moving train already for them. Yeah, truly, like immediately I was like, well, I would lay down my life for you guys now too. Yeah, she literally said that.

So here we are. Now I just love two other things in my house more than anything in the whole world. In the whole fucking world. So we're very happy over here. It was a puppy-shaped hole in my heart that I didn't want to fell right away. But then I think Bubba was like, girl, it's time.

Girl, girl, I'm sending you these baboons. She's like, girl, treat yourself. Treat yourself. And I said, okay. Yay. So I'm very happy. They're so perfect. They're so perfect.

So Sid and Blanche are going to be part of the crew now. I keep calling Sid City Girl. Sid City Girl, but it sounds like city. Girl. Not a country girl, but a city girl. But I'm really like Sid City Girl. Sid City Girl, but it sounds like city. Girl? Like not a country girl, but a city girl. Sid City Girl, but I'm really like Sid D girl. I love it. And my littlest one calls Blanche Branch. It reminds me of Trolls.

I love it. Is that his name's Branch? Yeah, Branch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so that's the good news. And that's making us really happy. And it's giving us, you know, animals just give you a little boost. Oh my God, 100% I was in a state of straight up depression,

the past few weeks. Yeah. And then you had them and they just give you kisses. And also I mean to when I say that, like I was literally actively depressed. Yeah, like don't, you know, sometimes people get mad at me when I say I have a manic moment, but I like actually have manic moments.

And remember that you don't know everyone's diagnoses? Yeah. Just because you hear them talk, everyone's just a while. Just talking about my little mentee-bees. Because my little problems doesn't mean I don't have them. Yeah, like people tend to get mad at Ash for saying that, and I'm like, yeah, you don't know what she's talking about. So it's like I have literally seen her in a manic moment and boy is it something.

So I think just think just know that. Just understand that we don't share everything. Exactly. There's pieces of us that people don't know. And it's not real cool to assume that you do know. So just like we're not gonna assume we know everything about you guys because we don't, even though we're friends here.

Yeah, of course we're all friends here. And that's why we're being real with you. Just a little sit down. I mean, I did just sing Ashley Simpson to you. That's true. Without, I wasn't even lip syncing. But you know what, guys? We all have new pups.

This is all our new pups. Sit and blanch are here to stay. I fucking love them. So get ready, world. I know. And then I get like both fills, because I come here and I get my dog fill and then I go home and I get my cat Phil and I'm just living life just

Just as my good girl would say All right, so I think we should jump right into it. I think it's enough chit chat and I've chit chat for today But enough all right. Well today's case is very sad. It's a very tragic case Um, I was requested a ton in our folder very sad. It's a very tragic case. I was requested a ton in our folder, though. That's why I ended up doing it. Yeah, like you guys know we usually try to stray away from like kid murders.

Oh. Yeah, this is a teenager. Oh, man. And it's a really sad story, but I think it's an important story to tell, obviously. And again, highly requested. So we're gonna start out on the afternoon of March 3rd, 1989. Kellyanne Tinias was at home.

She was babysitting her eight-year-old brother, Richie, and the phone rang. And Richie answered and he spoke to the person on the other end of the phone very briefly, and then handed off the phone to his sister, saying, it was somebody calling for her, and they were named John. Okay.

So she had a quick conversation with the caller on the line and then told her brother that she was heading out to go to a friend's house down the street and that she would be right back. That was around three o'clock in the afternoon, but Kelly never did come back. So let's talk about who Kelly was and kind of where she came from in her family a little bit. Okay. She was from a pretty typical working class 1980s Long Island family. Long Island. Her father, Richard Tignus, owned and operated Victoria's auto repairs. It was a small auto restoration business in their hometown of Valley Springs.

And his wife, Victoria, who it must have named after. She split her time as a medical assistant and a receptionist and a local doctor's office. They had those two children, 13-year-old Kelly and eight-year-old Richie Jr. and the whole family lived in a modest Cape Cod style house located on Horton Road and they lived with Richard's elderly parents. Okay. Richard's parents had bought the house back in 1967, but as they were getting older, they needed more care and support for themselves

and for the house, which they were able to get from their son and his wife and the grandchildren. Really like tight knit family. Yeah. And the community on Horton Road in 1989, it was also a super tight knit community. It was perfect for them because pretty much all of their neighbors were also working class and everybody really looked out for one another.

I love that. They were super tight knit, like I said, very actively involved in each other's lives. Sometimes still like a surprising extent. A woman named Evelyn Neves, I believe, is how you say the last name, wrote in an article for The New York Times. It was like a working class commune. The 19 families who lived on the street knew one another's in laws and watched one another's kids. The 27 school age children acted like cousins. Oh, I love that.

Yeah, it's like the perfect kind of spot to make kids. I was going to say that's the dream. Yeah, you would think. Now unfortunately for Kelly, she was older than most of the children on Horton Road. Most of the kids were closer to her brother Richie's age, but still, she would play with the younger kid, she would set up games to do with them, and she was definitely one of the more reliable

babysitters in the neighborhood. And because her parents both worked, she really had a lot more responsibility than most kids her age. She cared for her brother, she cared for her grandparents while her parents were at work, and a lot of times she would take responsibility for Brutus, the family dog. Brutus. I know, I fucking know that.

Brutus. But she took it all on and she never complained, not to her parents, not to her friends. She just was there to help. She's just a good kid. Really was. Never wanted was there to help. She's a good kid. Really was. Never wanted to complain about anything. And she always just seemed to maintain what people described as her warm, generous,

and outgoing disposition. And she just like looks that way. She was a little cutie. Yeah. Now her family knew her as a, quote unquote, responsible level headed daughter who was like I said, reliable, honest, hardworking, and also very well organized

when it came to school. Now, even though her responsibilities at home had increased especially when her grandparents' health kind of started to decline, she still actually managed to carve out time for herself, obviously, which she spent ice skating, which was her favorite thing to do. Or spending time with like a few close friends that she had in the neighborhood, including her close friend, Sharon Stonnell, who lived a couple houses away. Okay. Now, she's so cute. She's adorable. Like the epic chose a firm like, stop it. Such a little 80s girl, you know? Yeah, she really is. She's like the quintessential 80s teen. Yeah, she's got that perfect 80s like a bang. Like bang exactly. It's almost like a poof thing.

Oh yeah. Now, the close knit support of the Valley Stream community made it a nice place to live. And it also had relatively low crime rate, which was awesome, because obviously New York City was nearby and full of all kinds of crime. Yeah. But in Valley Stream, there actually hadn't been a murder since 1977.

Wow. And that was when a teenager was killed in a random attack. But since that murder of 16-year-old Richard Lesser, the residents of Valley Stream had carried on free mostly, almost entirely, a violent crime. But obviously that all changed this afternoon in March of 1989. So this day, Friday, March 3rd, 1989, started out really like any other typical day for the Tinius family. Richard picked Kelly up from school that afternoon, not out of the ordinary at all, to over home.

Winter was winding itself down, and Kelly was really hoping that she could go ice skating with some of her friends, especially because there weren't going to be that many more opportunities to do it, because again again spring was coming. Yeah. But her dad had some errands to run and he needed Kelly to watch her brother until her mom got home from work later that afternoon. Now she didn't know it but she was actually going to have a bit of a surprise party that afternoon. Her mom and her best friend Roberta Goose had been working together and they were gathering up a small group of Kelly's closest friends to take her out

for her 14th birthday, which was just two days away. Come on. Yeah, like literally so sad. So when she got home, she grabbed the phone, which you like so relatable. Like the second you get home, just like picking up that phone and calling you whatever you can call.

Remember that? Yes. I remember picking up that land and calling you whatever you can call. Remember that? Yes. You're picking up that landline? I was gonna say a chunky old landline. Stretching that stretchy cord as far as you could go. Yup, I loved it. Oh, the best. Now, so she called her friend Jennifer,

but Jennifer wasn't home and there was no answer. So instead she called her dad and she was like, please can I go ice skating? Like I really just wanna go with my friends. And he was like, please can I go ice skating? Like I really just want to go with my friends. And he was like, girl, I just told you you got to wait for your mom. Girl, she'll be home in an hour, direct quote. No, obviously not.

So she was disappointed, but she was like, all right, like I'm not getting out of this. I got to do what I got to do. Let me make some more calls. More calls on the landline. More calls on the landline. So she called up another friend and they chatted a few minutes before hanging up.

And actually just a few moments after she put the phone in the cradle back again, that's when it rang again. And that's when Richie answered the phone to this John caller. Okay. Now according to Richie, after identifying himself, the caller asked to speak with Kelly directly. Now after speaking for a good couple of minutes,

Kelly hung up, and about 20 minutes later, she told her brother that she was, quote, going to her friend, Nicole's house, just on the street, and would be back. No. It was like Kelly leaving her brother alone when she was supposed to be the one watching him was weird.

It was really out of character. Yeah, it seems like it would be. She was usually, as we know, like I just spent the first couple of minutes saying this of very reliable and responsible girl. Yeah. She's also 13. So that's why when she didn't come back after five minutes,

though, Richie actually ended up leaving the house and going to look for her. Oh. Because he's like, wait a second, like she wouldn't leave me that long. And did you say how old he was? He was eight, he was eight, that's what I was. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so he goes out to look for her

and he went to Kelly's friend Nicole's house at about 315, but Nicole told him that Kelly actually hadn't been there and that she wasn't expecting her. Oh man. So maybe she fibbed about where she was going. I must have been terrifying for him though. Yeah, and he only gets scarier.

So Richie went along and as he walked, he ran into another boy in the neighborhood, Harry Finney, who was playing in his yard. I feel like you can picture this all so well. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you can see this neighborhood in your head. Oh, yeah. So Richie told Harry, I'm looking for my sister, like have you seen her. Now as luck would have it, Harry actually did see her just a few minutes earlier as she was headed into the family

or the excuse me as she was headed into the home of the golebb family. Golebb yeah. Yeah thank you we just look at it up. I've been saying it one way in my head so I was like oh my god don't say it that way. And the way that you were saying it was the way I read it too so yeah I hate when you get a pronunciation in your own head and then you find the real one and you're like, well shit, I, my head is gonna say the other one. So gollum. Gollum.

So the gollum family, they lived next door to Harry. Okay. Okay. I am a big believer that cat should be seen of course, but not smelled. I mean, is there anything worse than walking into a house and just being smacked in the face with a nose full of cat's stank? No, there's not.

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So Harry and Richie went to the golems front door, and they rang the bell, but nobody answered. So Harry just went back to his front yard, and Richie returned home, and figured, you know, Kelly will be back soon. This is unlike her, but nobody answered. So here he just went back to his front yard and Richie returned home and figured, you know, Kelly will be back soon. This is unlike her, but I'm sure she'll be back. Poor Richie. So when he got back at home, he did call his dad

to say Kelly had left him alone and had said that she was going to see a friend but had actually gone to the gallops house. Now he explained that he had knocked on the gallops front door but nobody answered. So Richie told his son, go back up to that house, quote, beat on the door and call out for your sister. Oh man. So he was already feeling, like, nervous about this. A lot of bells were already going off. So stressed out for this family.

It's horrific. So after he hung up, Richie looked up the golebes number and the phone book and tried to call the family several times, but he never got an answer. So he went, I know. And just like picturing him like, pulling out the phone book and being like, okay, like I have to figure this out. Oh, so he started banging out, or so after he looks up and calls and doesn't get any answer,

he goes over to the house and just starts banging on the front door, calling out Kelly's name. But not getting any kind of response. But at the same time as he's doing this, he can hear loud music coming from inside of the house. Oh, God. Yeah. So he assumed that someone was home and just couldn't hear him. So since he didn't get any response at the door, he just started pacing on the sidewalk. I got this poor child. Calling out to his sister and he was saying that the dog had gotten loose and he needed help. That wasn't true, but he knew that if Kelly thought

that the dog had gotten out, then she would come out from wherever she was. Like that move. Exactly that would get her to move. Oh, but still getting nothing. This poor baby. I know both of these poor babies. Seriously.

So after waiting a little while longer, just pacing on the sidewalk, he went back home and waited for his mom. So Victoria returned home a little after 5 p.m. and she was really surprised to find out that Kelly still hadn't come back home. It was again, very, very unlikely to be any kind of irresponsible.

So it hadn't quite raised alarm bells just yet, but the fact that Kelly was still missing was puzzling. Like, they were like, this is weird. Yeah. So Victoria started calling around to Kelly's friends and figured she'd find Kelly with one of them. But nobody in her circle had seen her since she left school early that afternoon.

So Victoria, keep calling whoever she could think of of and Richard joins in too when he gets back with their getting like radio silence or just like no helpful tips at all. Oh man. No one had seen Kelly. Now it got to the point where Victoria is getting more and more concerned. So she starts going door to door being like, is Kelly here? Have you seen Kelly at anybody seen her? So she gets to Kelly's friend Sharon Stonewell's house and Sharon told Victoria that she had seen Kelly her earlier that day. And just like Harry had told Richie,

Kelly was going into the golems house down the street. I'm so stressed out right now. I know. So after several attempts to reach anybody at the golems house by phone or in person, Richard finally got through to the mother Elizabeth Gallup a little after 6 p.m. But she said that she had been out afternoon and as far as she knew Kelly hadn't been in their house at all that day. So the dad Richard is really frustrated, frustrated seeing as all roads seem to

go back to the Gallup's house, but now they're saying they haven't seen me. Like, no, we're the hellishy. Oh my God, he must have wanted to barge into that house. Oh my God, I can't even imagine. I can just feel it for him. And it's like on your street. And you are looking at your neighbor. And you're looking at your neighbor.

Exactly. You want to just like break down the door. Yeah. So he was frustrated being like, like, what the hell? Yeah. And seeing as all roads were leading back to that house, he asked if he could speak with John J, John J. Uh oh. The god of 14 year old son. God, John's what is going on. I know. But John J, he said he hadn't seen Kelly in a few days, actually. So Richard didn't press the boy any further, but he did sense a nervous tone in John Jay's voice that suggested he was not being entirely truthful.

Oh, good. So the rest of that evening was spent searching for Kelly, going from one friend to another, just desperately hoping that their daughter was hiding out somewhere, nervous that she was going to be in trouble for walking out on responsibilities, like, just holding on to any hope they possibly could. Now, let's talk a little bit about the Gallup family. Most of the families on Horton Road were actively involved in each other's lives and community events, and they all kind of engaged with each other. and they all kind of engaged with each other. But the golebs were among a small group of neighbors who, even though they were polite enough, they preferred to keep to themselves.

Okay. The father, John Golebs Sr., he ran Getty Gas Station in town, and he didn't really like to hang out with the neighbors. He didn't like to go to block parties, barbecues. He just kind of kept to himself and worked on his car or his boat. Okay. You know?

Yeah. Now his wife Elizabeth, she was a little bit more active in the community and more familiar with the neighbors, but she liked hanging out with her own friends and acquaintances at church or at the Keystone Yacht Club. Okay. That was her kind of deal. That was her gym. Yeah.

So the family had moved to Horton Road a little over 20 years earlier actually and that was all there was to it. Okay. Now the gollab said three children. Adele was their oldest and she had gone off to college, married, and started a family with her husband and Manhattan. So she's not really a player in this at all. Then there was 21-year-old Robert and 14-year-old John Jay.

They both lived at home still with their parents. Okay. In 1989, Robert was an unemployed bodybuilder. He had graduated high school, but didn't want to go to college, and we just got to live in at home. Okay. Yeah. He spent his time at the maximum health and fitness center, where he would quote often put up to three hours a day at the gym. Cool. Like, that's a little excessive, bro.

Yeah. He was five three, so he was very focused on looking as big as he possibly could. And aside from the gym, he would just be at home in the family's basement or working on his tan at the nearby 10-year booty. This all sounds incredibly healthy. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Totally. I love that fact. Place't see anything wrong with it. Totally. I love that that place is called 10-year booty. Yeah, like imagine opening a business called 10-year booty. It's literally just like 10-year butt, 10-year butt, 10-year ass. That should have named it that

in this Doctor 2 in the D, right? Now like his brother, 14-year-old John Jay was rather unremarkable to be honest. Yeah. He was a freshman at in high school, but most of the time he skipped class to smoke weed with his friends. Cool. Yeah, like relatable.

But relatable. In general, he was known to the neighbors as a troublemaker and he definitely was not the sort of person that anybody expected Kelly to be hanging out with. It was weird that she was even at the gallops house in the first place. But for some reason or another, Robert, the older brother, he was under the impression that Kelly and John J were dating actually.

Oh. He later told police, I saw them on the block, I could tell. I could see it in their eyes. Whoa. I was like, damn, like, that's impressive. They gotta know about that. I can see it in their eyes.

From down the block. Like shit, okay. Yeah. But no one in Kelly's family or any part of her friend group had any idea or knowledge that she was dating John Jay. And as far as anybody really knew, they barely even knew each other. That's strange.

Weird, right? Yeah, that's very weird. I don't know if maybe it was like a thing where they came from different friend groups and maybe they did have crushes on each other? Yeah, maybe that absolutely could have happened. I don't know enough to say one way or the other. That's kind of like an inference that I made based on the other thing I read, but because I don't, I just don't know why Kelly ended up in the house that day.

Yeah. And it seems like John Jay is the one that called. Because the caller was John. Yeah. Unless Robert called and said he was John, that's entirely possible. That absolutely could have happened. But with John Jay's nervousness,

I'm like, so you invited her over. And now you know she's missing. Like, yeah. What did you see? What didn't you see? That's the thing. It's like, are you nervous because of that? Because you were the one who did the inviting,

or are you nervous because you know that somebody you were the one who did the inviting or are you nervous because you know that somebody used your name and it's your brother. Exactly. Yeah. Egg, exactly. Now, as far as the neighbors knew, the glue, or sorry, the golems, that's how I was reading them. I was gonna say that's how you were reading it in your head.

I feel that. I feel that. The golems, as far as anybody knew, they kept a nice and neat, tidy home, but they only ever saw the home from the outside. Oh. When the police did eventually make their way inside of this house, they found it cluttered with debris

that officers and other witnesses would repeatedly describe as clutter, clothes, knickknacks, and trash filling every room of the house. You. It was essentially a hoarder house, but there was trash and just stresses me out so much. And it, well, and it's really sad because obviously that's a mental illness.

That's where that all stems from, but the kids having a little time. Well, that's the thing. It's like there's kids and then like thinking about, I'm thinking about Kelly. Kelly in there. Mm-hmm. And that's like a lot of, oh, it's just like adds

to the stress of everything. Oh, yeah. And it was a far cry from her home. Where she had grown up. Right. So Richard and Victoria, they spent most of that Friday evening, like I said, making calls, walking around the neighborhood, looking for Kelly,

just panicking more and more as every hour passed. The next morning, the search for Kelly continued. Richard revisited all the places he previously looked for his daughter, including the Globesome. And wait, the Gollibsome. Christ. Oh, it's so hard.

No, I totally, I'm not faulting you at all. It's when you read it in your head. I've done that so many times. It drives you nuts, the gollibs house. And when Elizabeth Gollib invited the family into the foyer of the home, Richard and Victoria were actually shocked by the mess that just stretched from one room to the next.

Richard explained again that several people had seen his daughter go into their home the previous afternoon and no one had seen her leave. So Elizabeth. That's a problem, my guy. Yeah. So Elizabeth was like, I'm sorry. Like I was running errands.

I really did not see Kelly here, but let me go wake up, John. So she wakes up, John. And he said, nope, I haven't seen her in a few days. So they were completely out of options at this point. And Richard and Victoria had to return home and call the police at this point to report Kelly missing. Break my heart.

Awful. A call you never, ever, ever. No, I can't even. Never. No. So Thomas McVety of the juvenile aid bureau of the Nassau County Police Department. Blah, blah, blah.

He was the first one to see the case come in. And he returned Richard and Victoria's call. Now after doing the usual due diligence in cases of messing children, calling friends, checking the usual hangouts, yada yada yada, he went to Kelly's house on Horton Road. And he sat down with Richard and Vicki and went through all the usual questions. Again, explaining, you know, sometimes kids take off for a while, but they usually return the classic whole nine and the classic. And Victoria was like, no, she literally said not Kelly. Kelly doesn't do this. Yeah, parents, a lot of parents do know their kid. Imagine that. Yeah. Now Richard and Victoria explained that several neighbors,

again, had seen their daughter go into the Gollibs house around 315 the previous day, but nobody in the Gollib house says they saw her. So what the fuck? How? How? What the fuck? Yeah. Now they also explain that as far as they knew their daughter had no relationship with anybody in that house, and as far as they knew again, no reason to go in there in the first place. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me. No. So McVeity and his partner left their house and started in the direction of the gallop's home. But as they came up the walkway, they actually were stopped by Elizabeth Gallop and John J,

who were just leaving Sharon's Stonel's house. Now inside, like so they eventually made their reign side to their house, the detective sat down with Elizabeth and her younger son and started to explain why they were there. Now John Jay told the detectives that he did no Kelly, but again, couldn't see her the previous day and couldn't think of a reason why she would come to their house. Okay, weird. Yeah.

So Mick Vetti asked if anybody else was in the house that they could speak with at that point. And John Jay disappeared for a moment and then came back with his brother Robert, who was accompanied by like a random friend. Robert told the detectives he knew who Kelly was, but hadn't seen her in quite some time. He said he'd been home all day the previous day and then he just played video games with his brother and two of his brother's friends that afternoon. I don't believe you.

And then he said, after they were finished playing video games, John Jay and his two friends left to play basketball and Robert stayed back. Now, Mick Vetti, the detective, he was like, I don't know, like something about this kid. He seems nervous. And he... And he noticed that every time Robert

would answer a question about the previous afternoon, he would subtly look at his brother almost like he was trying to confirm what he was saying. So the detective just came right out and said, why do you keep looking at your brother? I love that. He goes good. Why not just answer the question straight without help? Make a math. Make a math for it.

So they finally separated the two of them. And after doing that, the detectives left the house and went across the street to talk to Sharon Stonehill. Now Sharon said, yep, I saw Kelly the previous day, I saw her go into that house. But this time they learned that Harry Finney, who had also seen Kelly go into the house, told Sharon it was John Jay who opened the door and invited the girl inside. So John was lying. He had a senior. I didn't, I honestly was thinking like, alright, maybe, maybe he hadn't. I was very in the lead over.

You work, because I was really thinking he was maybe just nervous because he knew what was going on, but hadn't seen her. He saw her. I don't know if he saw everything, but he saw her. It's hard. I'm going to if he saw everything, but he saw her. It's hard. I'm going to ask you what you think at that. This is just terrible. It gets horrific. So up to that point, McVety had no reason to believe that anybody was lying to him,

but this new information suggested that no one in the Gallup House was being truthful at all. So he called her back up. He explained the situation to his supervisor, and he said he wanted to search the gallop home, and he said, I believe that's where the investigation is. Oh man. So under normal circumstances,

this search would have required a warrant, which as we definitely know, it would have taken some time to bring her. But wanting to be thankfully as helpful as she could, Elizabeth actually consented to a search. Wow. Yeah, so she really had, I don't think, absolutely no idea, it's what it sounds like.

No, I don't think she did it all. Yeah. So she invited the detectives back into the home and she signed the form, boom, consent. So now they had to call in backup to conduct this whole search. Yeah. So backup had arrived.

McVetti, John Gollib Sr., any uniformed officer were making their way through the house and they started making their way into the basement. And McVetti was absolutely shocked at the amount of garbage and clutter all over the place, especially in the basement. He would later tell the jury that the basement was so cluttered at quote unquote, hampered their investigation.

Wow. Yeah. And once they were in the basement, McVety spotted a small door in the basement that was blocked by a large steamer trunk, which prompted him to ask like, what the fuck that was about. Now, John, like the father, told the officers that the trunk was just for storage and they were like, okay, like, can we move it? And he's was like, yeah, sure. Yeah. So they move it. And once they did, McVetty kind of shined his flashlight into the darkness. And the light showed that there was a large green sleeping bag that was zippered. Oh no. And propped really awkwardly against the wall, almost like there was something inside. Oh god. They approached the bag and they noticed that it had actually come unzipped near the bottom and partially poking out of it was a pale and bloody human look. Oh my God. Yes.

Now, McVety immediately secured the scene and called in homicide detectives. The news of the search had already made his way around the neighborhood and a ton of the neighbors on Horton Road had come out to their yards and their driveways to see what was going on, including Richard and Victoria Tignus. So not wanting the news to reach them before he could make Vettie literally made a beeline to this couple so he could tell them himself what had happened.

Oh, God. And Victoria just started screaming. Oh my God, like how do you even- I literally- I do even. I have like chills, like how do you even... I literally even. I have like chills all over my body right now. I can't, I can't imagine. And I don't even want to. No.

No one should ever imagine that. I just want to give her parents the biggest hug because they look like New Englanders. They do. I was just looking at pictures of them and I was just like, oh my God, they're breaking my heart. They just look like your friend's parents. Yeah, they really do.

You know, and like who care? Yeah. A lot. And like you would go over their house and like, she'd like talk to them while you're hanging out with your friend, you know? Like, that kills me. You're just like everyday people. Yeah.

And something absolutely fucking horrible happened. No, Sir, are you kidding me right now? Man, Sir, she comes at the worst. So fucking rude, sir. I really was. Oh, Jesus. Back to the seriousness. That was too, I think that was like something was like, hey, break the tension real quick.

Honestly. It's getting deep, honestly. But here we are, we're back. And we're back. So Detective Lane arrived at the Gallup House around noon, that same day, and spoke to Elizabeth and John Sr. while they waited for the medical examiner to arrive. This show is brought to you by BetterHelp. Getting them know yourself can be a lifelong process, especially because we're always growing

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Visit BetterHelp.com-slash-morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help help.com slash morbid. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the kids for cash scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines.

The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. And listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. Now followed by an interview with John Jr.

Heat, and sorry, that was followed by an interview with John Jr. And he told Detective Lane that he got home from school the previous day at the usual time. And he had two friends with him. Mick, Donald. Oh. Pause, pause for a loss. with him, Mick Donald, Oz, Poss for Lolls. Okay.

Literally Mick Donald. Oh, wow. Who did that? Why, why you do? Why'd you do that? And Chris Earl. Fine. Okay, that's fine.

So he said they played Nintendo for a while. A sign of the time. What I was just gonna say. And then they hung out with older brother Robert for a bit until he went back up to his bedroom and when he went back upstairs, they said they went and played basketball not long after. Okay. According to John Jay, he returned home a little bit after five that night.

So the crime scene search unit arrived at the house a little after one PM and they began what would be an exhausting documentation and search of the basement. The fact that there was so much garbage and clutter spread everywhere just made it way more difficult. So by the time the medical examiner Dr. Lone fanning arrived an hour later, detectives had pulled the sleeping bag out from the closet and carefully laid it out on the basement floor. And when they moved the sleeping bag, Lane and his partner discovered a pile of lace curtains that were soaked in blood.

And also a large World War I era bayonet, lying in a pool of blood next to the curtains. What? A bayonet? Yes. What the fuck? And here's the thing, this medical examiner is a suburban medical examiner.

And I just told you there's been like one murder in the past 10 years. Oh man. Dockers are bayonet involved. Yeah. Dr. Thanning was used to just like natural cause. Yeah. You know, and it was shocked by what she discovered upon opening the sleeping bag.

This is absolutely brutal. Just so you know, like if you do the drastic, please do. One of the detectives on the case would later say that Kelly's remains Absolutely, brutal, just so you know, like if you do make the stick, please do. One of the detectives on the case would later say that Kelly's remains were scarcely recognizable as human. Oh my God. Whatever happened to her and the person that did this, like I'm like, you're not even a human, you're an animal. Oh God.

An animal. Her face had been beaten and was insane leabers by the time she was discovered. Her throat had been beaten and was insane leabers by the time she was discovered. Her throat had been cut so severely that the wound extended, quote-unquote, nearly to her backbone. Oh my God. And clumps of her hair had been ripped from her scalp in what appeared to be handfuls. What the fuck?

And then detectives also discovered in the bag a bra that had been nodded, like it had been used as a choking device. She's 13 years old. 13 years old. Oh my god. Now, at a quick glance, her body suffered the same brutality as her face, if not more. Oh. Her torso, she had to do it, just covered in bruises, slashes, two human white marks.

Oh my God. And her, this is super graphic and absolutely fucking awful. Her killer had slid her from sternum to groin. Exposing her internal organs. Oh my God. Like horrific. That medical examiner. I, I have to wonder if that was like the last case

they ever did. I can't, I would have to have had retired after that. How do you, you couldn't prepare for that in a city setting? No. Never mind in like a suburban, just like in this quiet little street where like everybody, it's, it really was like quiet little street everybody gets along like and she just got a call like come, hey, come over.

Oh no. How many times did you get a call when you were younger to go to your neighbor's house? What the fuck happened? No. Holy shit. Going back to the scene, a lot of the cuts made to Kelly's torso were consistent with a blade

that was the size and shape of the bayonet. But also at the same time, many of them were not consistent with the bayonet, which led detectives to believe that there was a second or possibly even third weapon missing from the seam. Detective Lane had seen the body when they pulled it from beneath the basement stairs, and he theorized that whoever had done this to Kelly had to be a very large, very powerful person. And very vicious, awful, savage person. Mm-hmm.

Now he'd seen John Jay, who was an average height and weight build for a 14 year old boy, and he assumed his two friends were, you know, most likely of a similar build. So it seemed very unlikely that any of those three were responsible. Yeah. But possible, but not likely. So based on all the testimony collected that day, the only people in the house that previous afternoon were John Jay, those two friends, and 21-year-old Voddy Builder, Robert. Voddy Builder.

So Detective Jack Sharky was assigned the task of interviewing McDonald and Chris Earl, John Jay's two friends, who had been at the house that afternoon. They confirmed that they had all been there, and just like John Jay said, they played video games before they left to go play basketball. And they also suggested it was pretty likely that it was John who called Kelly and invited

her over to the house. Wow. Officers had learned that the boy had, quote, unquote, been sweet on Kelly for years. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, and he was the only one in the house that really knew her that day. My God. No, after their interview, both boys actually consented to a polygraph test and they both

passed, quote, unquote, with flying colors. So because they didn't really match who they thought could have, like, overpower a Kelly and pair that hand in hand with the passing of the lie detector test, it rules them out as suspects. That makes sense. Since Donald and Earl were now crossed off the list of suspects, the only two remaining possibilities were John and Robert. Since Donald and Earl were now crossed off the list of suspects, the only two remaining possibilities were John and Robert.

But again, since he seemed to lack the physical strength, they thought would have been necessary. And since his friends had confirmed that John Jay had been with them that afternoon, detective Lane decided to focus his attention on the older brother, Robert. Now according to Robert, he had woken up around 10am because he's a real winner. Yeah. The morning of the ceremony. because he's a real winner. Yeah. The morning of the series. Because he's really killing it. He's really killing the game.

And he said he went to a convenience store to purchase a bodybuilding magazine. Cool. Because apparently he was very fixated on his one hobby in life. He's so cool. Yeah, like wicked cool. And then after he got his magazine, he came right back home. He said, I doubt it. Who even knows.

So that afternoon, he spent time with his brother, his mother's friends, and he said, after the younger boys left to play basketball, he went back up to his room, he drank a couple of beers and smoked some weed. And he said that he had never seen or spoken to Kelly that afternoon. And in fact, he really only knew her

and well enough anyways to say hi. It's like weird, why was she in her house then? I totally believe you. But he did say that Kelly had been close with his younger brother, John, and that she, quote, sometimes called the go- the golebb poem twice a day to speak to John Jay. Okay.

So, I do wonder if there was like a little bit of like flirtation going on between John Jay and Kelly. Yeah. I don't think John Jay had anything to do with this, to be honest. In my personal opinion, I don't know, but I don't think so. Okay. So when police showed Robert the bayonet used in the attack on Kelly, he said he never owned it

and had actually never seen it before. And as far as he knew, nobody in the house did either. Oh, a bayonet just showed up in your house one day. A World War One bayonet just like essentially an antique. You just plop fell in your house. You know, I can't believe that has happened to somebody else. That happened to you too. Yeah, just showed up in my house.

Like, who do you think you're fooling Robert? Like, you're really looking at investigators. I mean, like, I've never seen it. It doesn't belong to anybody in the house. It just lives here. Yes. Yeah, it pays rent, I don't know. Just show that one to us.

Like, what? What? What, dude? It's a Bay of fucking net. It's a world where you're kidding me. Or a Bay of Net. Or a World of War. That is a relic of years past,

and you are telling me that you don't know how it ended up in your house. Lies. Lies. So weirdly, he consented to a polygraph examination. He was like, yeah, I'll take that. Air goods, he thought he could beat it. He sure did.

He had full-on plans to do that, because they did go on with the test, but it had to be called off partway through when the examiner noticed that Robert was trying to mess with the results by holding his breath at various points. Of course he was. You don't think the examiner is not going to see you

holding your breath. Their entire job is to examine every single little thing that sets your body off to make it that you're lying. And you think that holding your breath is gonna somehow get past them. It's an examiner. They examine you. They just watch your eyes. Oh boy. I'm glad you're done, but like shit. So while detectives interviewed the rest of the neighbors on Horton Road, the crime scene technicians continued this absolutely crazy job of just daunting job of daunting task.

Danting task because this scene is brutal anyways. And then the added chaos of the crime scene. Now, while they were searching, there were a few significant items found in the basement. There were two briefcases that contained Kelly's clothes that she was wearing the day before. Random briefcases. That's so weird. And a large white t-shirt that appeared to have four semen stains on the front of it. Disgusting.

I'll tell you now, I don't think she was sexually assaulted. Well, that's good. Like, pre-mortem? You like Harry? I like Harry more than Harry. Yeah, Harry more than Harry more than. Now, each case of the briefcase has had some blood smeared on the outside and on the inside, but it was going to take some time to determine whether that had come from Kelly or her killer.

So they had their work laid out. Damn. Now, the autopsy was performed the following day. And actually, there was a few people in attendance. There was Detective Richard Wells, the medical examiner, Dr. Thanning, a serologist named Dr. Arlene Collin, and then the chief medical examiner, Dr. Thanning, a serologist named Dr. Arlene Colin, and then the chief medical examiner, Dr. Leslie Lukash. Now, thankfully, like I was just saying, tests actually found no evidence of semen on the

surface of Kelly's body or internally. That's good. And there was no other signs of sexual assault. Okay, so pre-mortem, she was, or peri-mortem, either one she was not. She was not. Okay. Now, unfortunately, though, the medical examiner wasn't able to find any fingerprints present on the body, which is, I'm like, did you wash her? No, I don't. I don't know how that works. But, oh, I don't, maybe it was because it was so brutal. Yeah. But the chief medical examiner, Dr. Luke Ash, determined

the cause of death was blunt force trauma to the skull. But the chief medical examiner, Dr. Lu Kache, determined the cause of death was blunt force trauma to the skull. But after identifying more than 200, and this isn't quotes, 200 discrete blows to her head, the medical examiner had to stop counting 200 more than 200. I don't need, I literally, my brain, like my brain isn't computing that I don't even know how that's possible. The randomness of this act is just like, I don't know if maybe that's why it's one of the most requested cases. It's like, like that's how did this happen? I'm like speechless. Like 200 had to stop counting to her head. Yeah.

Like I don't even know how you do that. What kind of fucking animals do you have to be? And like exactly, like that is animalistic behavior. That is, that's not even of this world. Like I can't even comprehend. That's not even like demonic.. I can't even comprehend. That's not even like demonic. That's like, I'm like, what the fuck? I can't even think of a creature that I know of.

That could do that to another person. To just like, that is so long. Think about hitting something 200 times. How long that takes. No, I can't imagine. Just think about like taking your hand and hitting a table 200 times. No. How long that would take and how much energy that would take?

Hour? Hour. Like that is, I'm speechless. I don't even know what to say about that. That's unbelievable. That's absolutely crazy. Of course, girl. I know.

And her poor. Oh, that's a family. I just, oh, it's awful. I actually like having anxiety. I know. That's all family. I just, it's awful. I actually like having anxiety right now. That's like really killing me. So based on the evidence collected at the scene, Lukash believed that the blunt force trauma was consistent with the antique rifle found at the scene, but said that the extent of the damage was too great to ever be positive. Wow. Said, I think so, but I mean, you get to 200 blows. You can't fit an instrument there.

I don't know what that was after a certain point. There's because you're not even seeing distinct wounds at that point. Exactly. Oh my God. Now, the slicing wound to the neck, excuse me, was a match for the bayonet, but there also appeared to be an indent, and this is again brutal, an indentation near the wound that until then couldn't be accounted for, like they were trying to figure out what that was.

So the doctor spent more time examining the blade and then realized that the circular indentation was caused by the knob on the handle of the knife, which meant that the killer had to, quote unquote, lay the blade across Kelly's throat and then stand the full weight of his body on the knife bouncing up and down. You have to. I have never heard anything like this. Never in my entire life and you have to hope. And I have to tell myself that she was gone.

She had to have been. But the blood to the head, she had to have been. It had to have been, which does not fix any of this, but my God, I can't. Who? Doug, we have covered some of the worst of the worst. Oh, shit. Of the worst.

And I cannot compare this killer to anyone I have ever read about. This is just like, like my arms this entire time or this is stuff you can't make up. Like this is stuff that if you saw it in a horror movie, you'd be like, who comes up with that? You'd be like, I don't like wanna watch anything by this person in the fridge and it's like, no one's like that.

No. Oh my God. No. Oh poor Kelly and her family. Yeah, I told you. I know the baby went through God. Oh, honestly, like my, the, I told you about your baby when you were good. Oh, God. Oh, honestly, like my, I know.

I know. I've removed that from her parents. So I'm like, I don't even know. I don't even know. I think I said that. So when the examination was complete, Dr. Lukash concluded that Kelly's murder had to have been committed by somebody in a frenzy.

Yeah, to say the least. Yeah. And could only have been done by a quote unquote, incredibly fit and powerful man. Jesus. So given the amount of evidence collected at the scene and the story being told by Kelly's body, Detective Lane and Wells kept their attention focused

on the most obvious suspect, Robert, Gloop, right? No, gollip, dammit. Gollip, gollip. He was brought into the station at this point for question, or even before that, he was brought into the station for questioning actually on the afternoon that the body was discovered. Oh, well, this all happened very quickly. I was going to say this probably happened so fast. So John and Elizabeth had been cooperating with police up to this point, but now a lawyer for the family had instructed

the two brothers to refrain from answering any questions beyond the statements they'd already given to the police. So days passed without an arrest and the public was starting to grow anxious that there might literally never be another resolution. And Kelly's parents, Richard and Victoria, must have been losing their goddamn mind.

Seriously. Because you know what happened. She went into that house. She was found there. So why hasn't somebody been arrested yet? I would have been like, oh my God, I'd be losing my fucking mind. And they were.

No, in the meantime forensic tests were being conducted. And the results, I mean, remember, this is the 80s. The results were very slow to return. But when they did come, they seemed to confirm that Robert was involved in the killing. But there were complications. For one thing, there was a handprint discovered near the body that did belong to Robert, but it was discovered in his home, which made it a lot less significant. And then the blood smears on the cases where Kelly's clothes had been found

were also determined to be Robert's blood. But given that again, it was his home, there was no way for analysts to determine whether it was left there the day of the killing or a day or two before. Like, yeah. I don't know who would think that that got left there. No, no. No, but put sure to bring it to court,

you got to go beyond a reasonable doubt. Now when Robert was brought in for questioning on the day of the murder, he actually had several small cuts on his right hand. Oh, but those cuts they said showed no signs of having blood recently. Which is weird, but I'm like, I mean, how do you really determine that?

Like, if he has cuts on his sand, the guess cuts on a sand. Yeah, he does. Right? Like, how can you tell if they blood recently for the red? I mean, you could really, the only thing I can think of is what stage of healing they're in. Mm-hmm. That's really all I could.

Yeah. Say about that, I guess. I don't really know. Because I'm like, they didn't, like, were they open cuts? Like, if they're open cuts, they scabbed over cuts, because then you could be like where they open cuts like They scabbed over cuts because then you could be like they were They're scabbed. They're healing. They're in the process of healing But the way they put it as no signs of having recently bled. I'm like, that's a weird stator

Yeah, it's like he would have washed that right exactly So essentially while he may have looked very guilty a good lawyer could have explained a bulk of the physical evidence has to be in no different than skin cells, fingerprints, and trace fluids that everybody leaves around their house every day. Which is really gross that you think, really, is gross. So, like, a lot. Hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena. And Ash, and we're taking you back to the days before streaming services.

Whoa! You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show everyone was watching was about to come on? Well in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee-high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the Wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Hear no. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action and romance.

Episode by episodes. Lacey, follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Darn, ee-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e up. Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, but on March 24th, nearly three weeks after Kelly's body had been discovered in the basement, investigators did finally feel like they had enough evidence to make an arrest, and Robert was arrested.

Wow. Now, it was a step in the right direction, but still people in the community were pissed off. Like, they were very frustrated. Kelly's uncle Robert told the press, we feel only a fraction of relief about the arrest. There are so many unanswered questions that are hurt that are hurting right now. Four people in the house and no one heard anything. Yeah. That's what's so shocking to me. I'm like, what the fuck is going on in that house? No one heard anything. Yeah. Like, is the basement soundproof? That kind of beating. But then you think about the loud music and,

I'm like, The loud music that is that. Why nobody heard anything? Because it was so loud that Richie could hear it outside. Oh my God. I'm that adds such a different layer to this. It's like a horror film. It is. This is like so bad.

It is. So those unanswered questions and frustrations grow, or groups, excuse me, exponentially in the time between the arrest and the trial. While Robert spent his days in prison, he was like lifting weights on the yard or preparing in his cell for trial, a lot was going on back home.

Reporters, neighbors, strangers were harassing John and Elizabeth Gallupibnon's stop. Their home was being referred to as a murder house because that's what it was. And their harassment had actually become so intense that they had to send John J. off to a private boarding school. Oh wow.

Which if he had nothing to do with this, you do feel bad that that happened. Of course. It's just so weird. And then Kelly's family claimed that at the same time, that the golems were trying to intimidate them. And then the golems claimed that they were being prevented

from freely coming and going to their home. And Elizabeth claimed that actually she was being sexually harassed around town at this point. So it is a whole full blown mess. Yeah. It is like the neighbors that hate each other. The, the, you know, it's almost time. Oh, the Hatfields and McCoys.

Thank you for that. Yes, literally. I loved that little like hand motion you were doing. Yeah, I knew it would get you. Just a low-he hands and I was like, got it. You're like, I don't know your state. The Hatfields and the McCoys. Yeah, yeah.

That's exactly what this is. That makes sense. And eventually the McCoy's. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what this is. That makes sense. And eventually the tension had become so disruptive, like fights had broken out and everything. That a police officer had to be regularly parked on Horton Road to intervene, if necessary. Wow. They got that bad, which is sad.

And you can understand why I got that bad. Of course. Now while all of that was going on in the neighborhood, Robert's defense lawyer, John Lewis, he was hard at work trying to get a ton of critical evidence excluded from trial. Of course. Yeah. Prior to trial, a fry hearing was held to determine whether the DNA evidence collected

at the scene, mostly from the outside of the briefcases and the palm print on the wall. Okay. They wanted to see it in this trial if it would be allowed at the murder trial. Now, for those that don't know, because I didn't know, a fry hearing according to Cornell Law School quote, determines the admissibility of an expert scientific testimony

and other types of evidence. So back then, you weren't seeing a lot of cases where DNA was being. Yeah. In fact, Kelly's was actually one of the first cases in America where DNA was used. Wow, really. Yeah, it's not very interesting. That's interesting.

Now, so they had to have that hearing to see like what was going to be admissible and what wasn't. Okay. So, John Lewis argued that DNA science was still in its infancy and it was unreliable. Oh. DNA evidence. Do know. But the prosecution presented several experts

who testified that, de-quote, DNA fingerprinting is a reliable scientific theory that is generally accepted in the scientific community and that the six-step procedure used to extract and analyze DNA samples is also generally accepted in the scientific community. I love this, but they're like, DNA is generally accepted in the scientific community. They're like so there.

Yeah, they feel all right. So there were more pretrial hearings that took place in mid-August, and the tensions were insanely high. There was a lot of fighting going on between the families. There were fights within the courtroom. I would be throwing out. Yeah, I'd be furious. People had to be escorted out.

And then more problems were to come in October when the defense attorney, John Lewis, was thrown off the case. Oh. So he actually got into an argument with the judge that was presiding over the case, Judge Marvin Goodman. And the defense attorney, Lewis,

told the judge that he wasn't prepared to go to trial that month and he wanted to push out to January to get to have more time to prepare. Oh yeah, yeah. Who gives a shit about the families that have to sit here and deal with this shit? Thank you. Yeah, exactly. So let's push it out because I'm not ready.

I'm not ready. Sorry. Sorry. We had plenty of time. Yeah. Like you do. If you don't have a good case, it's because he did it. Yeah, the end. The end.

Also, so says I. So says I. I would tap my little gavel. But the judge denied that request, basically saying everything that we did and saying he hadn't provided a legal reason for it. So like, no, just because you're not prepared as in my fall.

That's probably exactly what he said. But Lewis lost it. He was pissed about that. And he said, he wasn't going to be forced to go to trial. And that goodman could hold him in contempt or throw him in jail. And he's like, got it. And goodman is like, I'm not going to do either of those things. You're just, I'm not going to work on this case. You're going to throw you right off. You're gone. Yeah. And you're done. You're done. And he was replaced with Salvatore Maronello.

Hopefully I said that right. So Robert's trial for the second degree murder of Kelly Ann began on February 15th, 1990. Yeah. So wow. And it took place in, I don't know, time to look for Manolla, New York. Yeah.

Totally. So in opening statements, the prosecutor, Daniel Cotter, laid out the extent of the evidence, including the mass of DNA evidence that linked Robert to the murder. My God. He also detailed the extent of Kelly's injuries, and he paid particular attention to the mutilation of the genitals and the buttocks. Because she had been like I said completely,

just like a viserated. A viserated. And one of the bite marks was actually to her backside like on her bum. God, you fucking animal. And happened post mortem. Holy shit. Like not even an animal.

An animal would be like this. I was just gonna say, I don't even know what to compare this fucker to. And that's the thing, it's like not even an animal, not even a demon. Like doesn't, I don't even know what to compare this fucker to. And that's the thing, it's like not even an animal, not even a demon. Doesn't exist. I don't know what to call you.

An entity unto itself, truly, an entity unto itself. Seriously. So, Carter told the jury, because of all this, it is fair to assume that this is a sexual assault by a male. Oh, ugh. Then it was the defense's turn. Salvatore told the jury, the prosecution expects you

to make judgments through inferences. And basically told the jury that the evidence was highly scientific, very confusing, and they couldn't trust it. I'm obsessed with the fact that they were like, oh, it's like, little too sciencey for me, everybody. This is going to be like biology class. Yeah, let's throw that fuse. Let's throw that shit right out. We don't need science. Science.

Science. Facts? Are you guys looking for facts? Fuck that. Like what? No, we don't want scientific facts. And here there's hard to pronounce words. Yes, of course.

It makes me sad. And are you all right? Are you excited? Are you kidding me? Science is not a reliable thing in a trial. Can you imagine? Like 1990. I feel like we're saying, you're all in six years later.

Jesus. Like you were five. Wow, that's it. I'm like your old. It was 1990, right? Yeah, five. And they're literally like, they're like, what's that? Like was 1990, right? Yeah, five. And they're literally like, I don't like what's that?

Like, sounds gross. That was in your lifetime. Yeah, that's upsetting. Isn't that upsetting? That's really upsetting. But like I said, this was a time in America where DNA really hadn't been used in a ton of court cases.

Yeah. To get a guilty verdict anyways. Yeah, it's hard to say. So he was definitely hoping that all this scientific garbage, of yeah, hallibolu, was gonna go over the jury's head. But just in case it didn't, he also tried to put doubt in their minds about everybody there that day,

and told the jury there were three other boys in the house that day who could have done this, right? They were there right around the time in the murder. I'm like, they're 314 year olds. They are all the same size. Yeah, I don't think so. Truly. No.

Now, luckily, prosecutor Carter there was able to shoot down that argument by pointing out how unlikely it would be for 314 year old boys to commit, quote, a savage vicious act, been covered with blood and then go calmly play basketball. Yeah. Because again, like they literally have an alibi. Yeah.

And then to prove his point even further that it wasn't one of these younger boys, he explained that one of the boys placed a call to his mom from the Gallup House at about 321 to go tell her that he and his friends were leaving to play basketball. Hmm. So I won, because that phone call meant

Kelly entered the house shortly after 3.20 PM I would say that she would have been in the house alone with Robert. So that makes me wonder, was it John Jay that called or was it Robert pretending he was John Jay knowing that his brother had been maybe like flirting with Kelly and they had all gone out to go play basketball, and he saw some kind of opportunity. That, to me, that's what makes sense. To me, it makes sense that this little fucker would pretend to be his little brother

to a hundred percent to that house. That's what I think. Because I don't see, I don't know anything about this family, I don't know anything about this family. I don't know anything about this pig and his brother, but I don't know if it makes sense that this kid would just lure her there, especially if he liked her.

If he was sweet on her exactly. They had some kind of thing. And then he's gonna leave. If anything you would think he would, if he was the one that called her, I feel like, and if she liked him, they would have gone and played basketball together. Yeah.

Yeah, it's straight. And to me, it feels more like this guy pretending. Yeah, definitely. Because this feels cunning as fuck. That's my theory is that he obviously saw Kelly around town probably developed some kind of weird fucking fascination and he's a figure of fucking troll. Oh, he's beyond even pigman, beyond words.

True pigman. Yuckas. Yeah. Yuckas McGee. Disgusting name, truly. Now over the course of the next few weeks, jurors were presented with a whole slew of information and evidence.

I can't imagine having to sit on this jury. No, I can't. Having to hear about those injuries in real time would be outrageous. And they did have to, because the doctor, the medical examiner, took the stand to testify about the extent of the injuries and placed the death somewhere between 330 and 820.

I'm thinking it was closer to the 320 radius. Yes. And the doctor also testified that while a lot of the slice injuries were caused by the rusty bayonet, there were others caused by at least two additional instruments that were unaccounted for. Then another expert, excuse me, the serologist Dr. Arlene Kohlin explained how DNA can be used to trace blood or other fluids back to a single individual.

Okay. So she explained this to the jury and they were able to comprehend this. They were able to understand. Crazy. Now according to this doctor, the investigators had found several spots of Robert's blood mixed with or adjacent to Kelly's blood, meaning that quote,

Kelly's killer had his own blood on his hands when he was attempting to clean up after Kelly's death. Which makes sense. Of course it does. Like you don't come in out of there with no scratches on his hands. Absolutely not. So the analysis of the palm print

that was discovered on a piece of crown molding near the basement closet was also a match for the Robert, for Robert, excuse me. And a crime scene analyst testified that the print was most likely left there very shortly after Kelly was murdered. He must be probably like leaned up against the wall to move her. So after closing arguments on April 2nd, 1990, the jury deliberated for a full day before

returning a verdict of guilty. Good. Not even going to make you wait for that. Good. When the verdict was read, the courtroom literally erupted into screams and cries from police family. Like, just they were so happy, but then that happiness turned to anger. And they were like, like, it was just way too much for everybody involved.

How do you even wrap your brain around it? So while that was all going on and like everybody is like trying to figure out even how to feel about this, Robert is just sitting there with literally zero emotion. He's a beast. He's beyond, beyond. Now, he returned, I was going to say re-entered. He returned to court on June 1st for sentencing. And in a surprising turn of events,

11 of the 12 jurors who sat on the case actually asked to attend the sentencing hearing. They wanted to be there. And so did four of the alternates who had also sat through the trial. They wanted to see this motherfucker sentence. Holy, I don't blame him. The court also received over a thousand letters from the public demanding that he be sentenced to life and mercy.

Wow. So he was given the opportunity to speak before he was sentenced. We don't ever understand why we let that happen. Me either. And he did take the chance to say that he was innocent. Shut the fuck up. We had that your blood was everywhere. Yeah, that's strange.

And he told the jury, I did not kill Kelly Antinus. Who let Kelly into our home? Who could have had any motive? These are questions I have to answer. These are questions the jury should have considered. Oh, okay. You really thought you did something in the jury. Like what?

He then went on to school the jury. He said that there was a police conspiracy to convict him. The jury was against him. They hadn't behaved properly. The crime scene technicians and analysts who had processed the scene were also all out to get him. A lot of people out there. Nobody cares that much about you, my friend.

New. So when he finished with that load of Marlarky, the judge Goodman, who I love, told him, the acts which you committed in this case are by far the most atrocious that I have ever experienced in my 17 years as a judge. Truly. And the manner in which you killed Kelli Antinius

and mutilated her body surpasses the worst murders known to this county. Yeah. No dictionary contains sufficient words to describe the brutality of your acts. Unfortunately, the sentence option given to me by all of our laws falls short of the sentence which you truly deserve.

You are hereby sentence to a maximum term of life and to a minimum term of 25 years, which would not even be slightly enough. So 25 years to life. Like not enough. No. Now Robert appealed his conviction in 1993, thinking that that was really going to move anybody.

It didn't. He said it was on the grounds that the evidence was mishandled, the analysis of the DNA was improper, because he knows how to do that. Oh, yeah. And the, um, or, no, that was just it. But the appeals court upheld the conviction. Good. Now, he maintained his innocence until his case came up for consideration by the parole board in 2013. And he had a hearing and he finally confessed to the murder. Oh, shit. And he said that he had killed Kellyanne, quote, in a rage due to his use of a ridiculous amount of Annabelle steroids.

I knew it. I knew it. But like, I've seen people on steroids. You've seen people on steroids. That is more than just steroids. You have a beast that lives inside of you. I was just gonna say. That was then fed those steroids.

That was fed those said. That's a perfect way of saying it. Exactly. It is very much already inside of you. 100% every cell in your body that you were able to do that. Annabelle steroids did not cause you to do that. No. They allowed that beast to come out. Exactly. Exactly. He claimed that he never meant to do that. No, they allowed that beast to come out.

Exactly. Exactly. He claimed that he never meant to kill her. Which like, shut the fuck up. Thank you. Shut the fuck up the extent of her injury. Oh my God. And you never meant to kill her.

I want to put a boot in your fucking face. Are you kidding me? You never meant to kill her? Shut the fuck up. Like go back to your tiny little cell. Say nothing. And spend the rest of your days remembering what you did to her, knowing full well

that you are going to a place that is literally worse than how. I hope she haunts you. Until the minute you die. Every single second. Truly. Of every single time. I hope Kelly haunts you until the minute you die. Every single second. Truly. Of every single day. I hope Kelly haunts you. He said he was remorseful.

Oh, shut the fuck up. I thought you were. You want to get out of prison. You don't exist. You're not a real thing. No. You don't have the same shit that everybody else does. Remorse is not, it's a vocabulary word to you.

It's not a feeling. If you can do that to a human, there is no part of me that believes you are capable of remorse. No, not one part of me that believes that. No. Luckily, state parole officials were as unconvinced as we are, and Robert has since been denied parole on two different occasions.

I hope they tell him to go fuck himself every single time. I don't think they're allowed to. But they probably say it as you walk out of the house. Literally as you walked out, I'd be like, don't forget, Robert. Go fuck yourself. Every single time. Up, remember last time, go fuck yourself.

If you haven't done it yet. Go fuck yourself, Robert. Literally into oblivion. Hate this pig. This is like the worst. One of the worst. The most brutal. I think I can, I mean, that is, but I, I don't think I could ever cover another case like this. Now, in the year since Kelly's murder, her parents, Richard and Victoria, they hold a celebration on her birthday, March 5th,

every single year to remember her. And still, their neighbors from Horton Road join them. And now it's gone like way above and beyond that. Like people join all the time. I'm even from all over. And in 2021, they had a memorial unveiled at a Park and Valley stream, which honors the memory of Kelly. Oh, I love that.

Now Robert remains in prison. He still hopes that he's gonna get some kind of parole. He's not going to. But you slowly rot. But Richard and Victoria and countless other members of Valley Stream are locked and loaded with victim impact statements and letters demanding he remained a person.

In the interest of public safety. Yeah. Not only just for their peace of mind, like not wanting to see him ever again, but he should never be allowed around people. Ever again. If you can do that one time, I can't fucking imagine what you would do

if you like didn't live in your parents' house and were left to your own devices. Yes, I can't even fathom. Cause you did that in your parents' home. Well, that's what's wild to me. Just went down to the basement. No, I can't even. Because you did that in your parents' home. Well, that's what's wild to me. Just went down to the basement. No, I can't. What literally can.

I'm not. So that is the tragic, tragic, tragic case of Kelli Antonyas. I am speechless. It was very hard to get through. I like, just, you just remember being 13 and I can't imagine that happening to like anybody I knew at 13 years old. 13 is a baby.

I mean, that is. She was just about, two days later, she would have been 14. Oh, and right before birthday. And it's just like, oh, that family, I can't, and like her poor little brother. That's the thing. And then to have to like go on and like be okay for rich. Yeah. Like I can't in like her poor little brother. That's the thing and then to have to like go on and like be okay for rich

Yeah, like I can't imagine. Oh, I can't imagine but they seem like the most amazing people. They really do Oh, I just want to give them a hug. I know that's awful. Yeah, that's awful I think um, were you gonna do something spooky? Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna follow this up with something, maybe like a spooky road or lake or something. You'll know, obviously, but like it's, there'll be something in there. Maybe not a haunted school. I think we have a whole whole door. Yeah, we got a lot of those. So yeah, we'll follow it up with just one spooky. Yeah, just like a thing. Haven't done one in a while.

There's a little palette cleanser, if you will. Yeah, we're due for one. Yeah. Feels right. Feels good, especially. I need it. I need it. Yeah, this is so, I need a while. It's a little palette cleanser if you will. Yeah, we're due for one. Yeah. Feels right. Feels good, especially. I need this. I need it. Yeah. This is so, I need to be. Yeah, I need to beat, you know. Oi. So yeah, look out for that. And with that being said, guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. You know, I'm not saying anything. Now that's it. Nope. That's a wrap. Bye. Goodbye. Love you guys.

Hope you have a great day. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.