Morbid - Episode 448: Burke & Hare Part 2

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

In the conclusion of the horrific crimes of William Burke and William Hare, we see them get somehow even more brutal. As time went on and they kept profiting off their violent tendencies, they began to get reckless and put their entire scheme and freedom at risk. In the end, only partial justice was served. Get ready, it's wild in here.Thank you Dave White for research assistance. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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car, I feel like my girlies are there with me. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500-500. That's audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500-500 to try Audible free for 30 days. Audible.com slash morbid. Reboot your credit card with Apple card. The credit card created by Apple. It gives you unlimited daily cashback that you can now choose to grow in a high-yield savings account at 4.15% annual percentage yield. That's more than 10 times higher

than the national average savings rate. Apply for your Apple card now in the wallet app on iPhone and start growing your daily cash with savings today. Apple card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple card owners, subject to eligibility requirements. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Remember FDIC, National Average Savings Rate is from FDIC website. Terms apply. I have really, really cool news. Okay, so about a year ago, I got to share the absolutely life-changing, mind-blowing, like, universe-warping news about writing my first book, The Butcher and the Ren. I could never have dreamed of the support that I received then, and that the book continues

to receive now from all of you. You are amazing. You set records with the numbers of pre-orders. You made every edition of Best Seller. It's you guys, you did it. And it was even nominated recently for an Audi Award. It's for Best Audio Book with a Multi-Boys Performance. Yep, yep.

Those voice actors are the best. And now I am so proud and so thrilled to share two pieces of incredible news with you. I have been sitting on these two pieces of news forever and I can't wait to scream them to you. So the first one is that the butcher in the ren is going to be out in paperback this summer on July 25th. So you can finally get that paperback edition.

And to make this even cooler, guess what the paperback edition is going to have? What? It's going to have a sneak peek of a chapter from Book 2. Oh, God. And guess what? I got to read it and I can tell you it's a really good chapter. It is, that's right. There's going to be a sequel. It is coming. You get to read part read it, and I can tell you it's a really good chapter. It is, that's right, there's going to be a sequel, it is coming, you get to read part of it in that paperback if you get it. And what's even better is that my publisher is giving away free signed copies of the paperback

to the first 50 people who pre-order. So if you wanna pre-order the paperback with that sneak peak chapter of Book Two in it, you can go to tinyurl.com slash TBATW paperback. That's tinyurl.com slash TBATW paperback. Thank you guys so much. You're amazing. Thank you so much for listening, supporting,

reading, being the best widows that you ever could be. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. I love you. I just want to hug you all, but I won't because it's virtual, but you like feel it, okay? I can't wait for you guys to read more Jeremy and Ren this summer. And it's gonna be awesome. Just you wait. Kapawi! Hey weirdo, Zamasch, and I'm Alaina, and this, right here, that you're listening to, is morbid. Sure is. Yeah! It sure is, it remains to be so.

Whoa, that was poetry. I am poetry. You are poetry. No, you know you are your prose. I'm prose, that's beautiful. Yeah, I love the word prose. I do too. Prose was a sponsor of ours one time.

It's been a sponsor. Yeah. Prose. I like prose. This isn't, this is not an ad for us. So, pros was a sponsor of ours one time. It's been a sponsor of mine. Yeah. Pros. I like pros. This isn't, this is not an ad for pros. I was going to say the word pros has no meaning anymore, but it's fun while it lasted. Pros.

Pros. Guys, it's only Tuesday and we're losing our GD minds. Yeah, I remember having a week like that. It's been quite, have a week like that. It's been quite a week. It's just, you know, that we're, it's, 2022-33, man. Yeah, I'm like, I was like, oh, it's gonna be such a great year

because I'm getting married that year. That's probably the only good thing that will take place. But you know what, we're having a positive attitude because we have positive candles. And lots of statues. Yeah, Mikey really like positive vibe to this place up. The Joy candle is wild and over there. Yeah, we have like a positive energy candle

and she is lit right now and she's also lit. Like she's like, we lit her and then she got lit. She lit herself. Like she is really going off right now, which makes me think that she's like, hey bitches, she would never... Stop talking so negatively. She let herself, like she is really going off right now, which makes me think that she's like, hey bitches, she would never stop talking so negatively. I am positive energy here, me roar.

I am. She's engulfing this room and flames. Yeah, and I have some intention flowers sitting next to me. Yeah. I have a whole shelf that Mikey put together for me. So it's positive vibes only, okay? Positive vibes only, even when there's tons of shit happening around us that is not great.

So I was gonna like, we're here making an acronym of everything you said, but then you really just kept going and I lost the letters. But I was like, P-B-O, oh, oh, oh, she's doing more. P-B-O, P-W-T-S. Oh, did I say shitty? Or bad.

OK, of course he's a shitty dude. Do you? H-A-U. P-H-O-H. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You know, that's what everybody's motto should be. So what is it again, say the short rule? Yep, there's your motto, that's your affirmation for today.

But positive vibes only here. And you guys rule, I was talking to a listener today. You were? Yes, I was because her name is Danny and she's awesome, I really like her. She a phantom. She's a phantom, there you go. I don't know, I'll ask. I love to watch her. She a phantom. She's a phantom. There you go.

I don't know. I'll ask. I love to watch her. But the reason that I was chatting briefly with her was I think in one of the recent episodes where you're talking about how, oh, we were talking about it with JVN. We were talking about how we put butter on pop tarts. Oh, hell yeah. And I was like, is that gross?

Everybody put no. She was like, I do that too. And then she was like, also don't judge me, but I put butter with my peanut butter on toast. I do that too. And so do you. And she said I put butter on saltines. And I was like, bitch, are we the same person?

Because I was like, wait a second. See? That's spooky. That is. Because that's spooky. That's it. That's it. Also, that's spooky.

He's a great podcast. Go listen to it. Hey. But that shit is spooky. I thought that stuff that whenever I do it, everyone around me is like, that's really gross. And like, you should check yourself before you wreck yourself. And so yeah.

To hear somebody sit there and just out with it, say like, I also do these two very niche things. Do you think that putting butter on before peanut butter is niche? I feel like it is, because everyone I've ever mentioned it to is like, that's really gross. Like Jon, I got it from you. I must have gotten it from you.

You did, because I think I got it from dad. And then I had probably passed it to you because I was like, try this. It's fucking good. Because Jon is horrified by it. Every time I do it, he's like, you are something else. No, everybody should give it a shot Where I do draw the line though is butter on salt Have you tried it? No, no, have you tried it? You haven't tried it. I'm gonna have you try it and you're gonna go

I probably will I love a good I love a good dipping because you're not like smearing butter on it It's just like a light little a dabble do ya. On it and you just take it just with the salt. I don't know what. It just like gives it a little, little sweet little salty. It's just enough. Not too much. I might have made this confession before

about saltines on this podcast, but if I haven't get ready for a fucking wild one, this is disgusting. Are you one of those wild people? Not anymore, no. Like no. Like, no. But when I was little, this is like a gross fucking nasty thing that I did when I was little.

I didn't require supervision. Well, I did require it. I didn't get it. I used to dip my saltines into water and eat them. And sometimes this is so gross. We used to live with this lady named Judy. Me and my mom, and she was Judy, was the best. But like, she ran a daycare,

so there was a lot of us to keep track of. So, you know, maybe I wasn't always getting the eyes on me. We used to dip my salt teens into the pool and eat them. Oh, how... Like, he's like, he grosses. Like, he's had just whipped over here. I would like to tell you that I was like seven So no, no, no, I would like to tell you saying I like to say that I was actually 17 or so last

I'm actually about to do it now. No, but I'm actually gonna go find the nearest pool and I got salt teams and have myself a good time Have myself a day I'm gonna sell teens and have myself a good time. Have myself a day. Oh, wow. Have myself an app, isn't that so foul? Like, that's foul. And it wasn't even a saltwater pool, because like, no.

That's one of those things that like, I'm always of the mind like, have you tried it? But you know what? Not tried to be a self-teen. I feel like that's one of those things that I can say. It's not not great. Yeah, I also wrote my name on the wallet Judy's house because I had recently seen Madeline do that in her movie

But fun fact you get in trouble for writing on Judy's walls. In case you were thinking of writing on Judy's walls You got in trouble. You will get in trouble and gymnastics will get taken away from you. I know Don't take after school activities away never. It's important. Yeah. I don't know. That's just me I'm not telling you how to parent. Whatever, whatever. So what do these fuckers do next? So I think we should, yeah. But you know what, shout out to Danny

for being the same person that I am, like, what's up, SoulSister? Danny, did you think your SoulTains and the pool because we could also be friends? We could also be SoulSister. She's like, girl, she's like, that's the line that's been drawn. She said, I don't identify with you.

But yeah, that was funny. So that was a nice little, like, the line has been drawn. She said, I don't identify with you. But yeah, that was funny. So that was a nice little like, I love it's a nice moment to like connect first. Yeah, I can be like, girl, yeah. But now we're gonna get into some terrible shit. We're gonna get into part two of Birken Hair. These fuckers suck. I know, and that's the thing, whenever you say like,

oh, we're gonna talk about Birkin hair. It sounds like a fun story. It sounds like a fairy tale. Like, it does sound like a fairy tale. I don't know why I said it that way. What? It sounds so fairy-like. It's so fairy-like.

It's so... It does sound whimsical. It does. I agree with you. But when we last left them, they murdered a grandma in her grandson. Separately, right? Yep.

Yeah. And all four seemed to have involvement. Yeah. And then Dr. Knox there was like, oh, weird that you brought in an old lady in her grandson at the same time. They don't look as good. So I'm going to give you a little less money for it. And it's like, my guy.

He knew. My dude. Like, I'm on the record right now. Yeah. He knew. Oh, he, are you, you're not getting all these body, body, audio, audio, audio, is not questioning it. They just rolled in there with a woman and her grandson. And you're telling me that you didn't question that these two

people died side by side. Right. And they had already been sus as fuck before. Yeah. Because of the last woman before they heard the... Yeah, she was known in town. They were the last people seen with her. Yaddi-da-doo. Yaddi-da-doo.

Like fuck this. Yeah, it's not great, but you know, the last one that they had before, we stopped part one was Effie, who they believed her name was Effie. And their confessions, they were like, I think she went by Effie. Oh nice. Also, I think that's the cutest name.

I didn't get a chance to say it last week. It is very adorable. That's a whimsical name. Oh, totally. Effie. I follow this girl, sorry, on TikTok, that she will categorize names, and she does them into whimsical names, like old fashioned names. That's fun.

I'm gonna find her name later and tell you. Yeah. I wanna know what my name would be, Catagrised into. Well, so she does like a baby name, so I've actually never seen your name on there. Oh, she was like, um, like, my name was a baby name at one point. No way.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. I never seen you on there. You're not whimsical, You're not old fashioned. At one point it was a baby name. One day because I was a baby at one point. I were a cute little baby. I wasn't there to like witness it in person. Because like photographic evidence. Maybe I was in a different life. One of your souls probably was probably. I think that. Anyway. But either way, poor Effie, she was a hawker. She was actually known

around town. She was known to Burke. Of course she was. So she, and when I last told you guys, she had gone door to door kind of selling, and I think she was going to sell him bits of leather for his cobbling work. Okay. And he enticed her into a barn with alcohol

and the promise of rest. Once she had fallen asleep, he said he laid a cloth over her and suffocated her as they did the others. Oh, okay. Then they just brought her to Knox's dissection room and got ten shillings for the body. Wow. Yep.

So as the summer went on, the stress of maintaining this whole thing was beginning to wear a little bit on Birkenhair, not in the sense of them having a remorse or guilt, but just in the sense of stress of doing it. Yeah. And trying to maintain the whole thing. And it was also, you know, it was wearing on their significant others as well. So, layered, like we talked about, had been at least like, on, like, outsidely involved in the murder, she was definitely there. Yeah. And they were hurting her, her boarding house, right? Yeah, and she was participating in some way, luring people in, you know, help plying them with alcohol.

Yeah. Helen McDougall, like we said, she had not actively involved herself in any of the killings up to this point. Except the grandson. The grandson, she didn't actively involve herself in his killing. She was only there to calm him down

when he couldn't find his grandma. Oh, okay. So if we're talking specifically, Yeah. Was she involved in a killing? We have no evidence of that right now. Okay. That is to me.

But you're about to tell me something. That to me is a accomplish it right there. Like you were coming down this kid. Yeah. When did you know what was happening to his grandma or did you not? I mean, I feel like this is a small fucking boarding house. That's what I think, but, you know, I don't know.

But, so she hadn't actively involved herself in any of the killings, like I said. And she's with Burke just to lay that out for us. Yes. So hair actually ended up looking at that as a liability, because she hadn't actively involved herself in any of the crimes, but she was around and knew what was going on. It seems like.

Yeah. Which, it's one of those things where it's like, if you're going to be around, you better make one of the stab wounds so that we can all point to you and say you did it too. Yeah. Otherwise, you can just go, I didn't do anything, but here's all the information. Mm-hmm. And you don't have to be implicated at all. That's how he was looking at it.

Exactly. He was like the fact that the three of us have been actively involved in these, and she isn't, but is around. That is a problem. Yeah. So in fact, at one point, hair had gone so far as to suggest that Burke killed the woman in order to protect themselves. The fuck?

Yeah. I think you should have off your wife because she hasn't murdered with us yet. He even came up with a plan. How to do it. He wanted Burke to take her into the country for a few weeks, then write hair and inform him of McDougal's death. And of course, in reality, the murder would have been committed

in the back room of the boarding house. And with McDougal's corpse being just another one of the bodies that they gave to Dr. Knox. It's hey, it's wild, my wife died. Here she is. Isn't that so wild? So crazy that like I've been getting all these bodies for you and now my wife died.

So when they, and he was trying to have him set up an alibi. Like he was trying to set this whole thing up. He had really thought about this. If I was, if I was Burke, right? Which one is, yeah. Burke is with McDougal. Yeah. If I was Burke, I'd be worried that hair was going to kill my lady. Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I guess fortunately for Helen McDougal, Burke may

have been an opportunistic monster, like an actual piece of shit. But I guess his one line was that he wouldn't readily murder the woman that he claimed to love I suppose so they did not go forward with that and everyone's gone aligned. Yeah, but I'm not gonna. Yeah I'm anything. I'm not giving them anything. No at least he didn't do that. I guess yeah so if air and I think this kind of shows like the eagerness with which hair wanted to dispatch hell and McDougal. That's kind of evidence of the growing tension, not only between the whole group, but between Burke and hair specifically.

So then the next murder really didn't do anything to relieve Burke's suspicions of hair, like this made things worse. So in early summer, Burke estimated it like late June, which was around the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn, which I just thought was interesting, the name Bannockburn. I like that. Burke and McDougal had left Edinburgh for a brief period of time just to visit friends in Falcork. Okay. During this time, here in Lair hair and layered were having a lot of financial difficulties and had ended up ponding everything they owned. That was a value.

Oh, everything? Yeah. Anything that was a value they were ponding. Yet when Burke and McDougal returned a short time later, suddenly, hair and layered appeared to no longer have any financial troubles. Interesting. So when Burke asked hair, if he'd been, quote unquote, and layered appeared to no longer have any financial troubles. Interesting.

So when Burke asked hair, if he'd been, quote unquote, doing any business, you know what that means, I love that he's like doing any business, like these two are fucking business partners. Are you kidding me? We're doing business when I wasn't here. Wow. So he asked him, were you doing any business

while I was away with Helen, Hair denied it, said no. However, in discussion with Dr. Knox, Burke learned that during their absence, hair had quote, fell in with a drunk woman in the street in the Westport and enticed her back to the boarding house, killed her, and sold the body to Knox, and kept the money for himself and then lied about it. What? Which I'm like, wow, you guys are ship ag monsters. And now you're even being ship ag monsters to each other. Yeah, I mean, it was only a matter of time.

It was, like, you're not what you think you have a friend. You're like, you're like, sociopaths to your girlfriend. Neither one of you gives a shit about anybody. Right. So for some reason, Burke and Harry started getting pretty reckless as the summer was drawing to an end. I'm not sure why Burke and Harris started getting pretty reckless as the summer was drawing to an end. I'm not sure why.

They just started getting very reckless. The heat. It's the heat. You know, one night, the two spotted a police man by the name of Andrew Williamson, and he was dragging a very obviously drunk woman to the Westport watch house. So Burke saw this and called out, let that woman go on to her lodgings. And the police officer, Williamson, said, he didn't know where the woman lived.

That's why he was taking her to the watch house to keep her from spending the night on the street. Yeah. So he's like, I'm a good person. Like I'm actually trying to do a good thing here, but cool. So after like a brief conversation, Burke was actually able to convince the officer to release her to him.

She was brought back to the boarding house and she was murdered and sold to Knox for tension. If you don't tell me that this is how they got caught, I am leaving the room. According to Burke, he quote, had a good character with police, which is why he was able to convince that police officer to release the very obviously drunk woman to him that night. But this brazen act clearly suggests a very misplaced confidence that don't worry. In a few months, at least, will result in their capture. But I'm telling you right now, this didn't do it. I have to go. He had a police officer hand a woman to him,

like who he murdered that night and brought back to Dr. Knox and was paid for it. That is being- And they did not get caught. And also the fact that it took months for them to get, like if, and it's sad, because again, it's they are taking advantage of who they believe to be quote-unquote less dead.

And they're just proving not stigma. You know, by like, you literally take your victim from a police officer and the police don't even realize that this woman is who she is and that she got killed. Exactly. And that this police officer doesn't care. Like, they'll hand it over. That was it. I don't need to know what happened or after that.

It's so sad. It's so sad. And it really is such a misplaced confidence though because he's out here being like, oh yeah, like I look at what I did. Right. I convinced a police officer to give it to me that as horrible as the situation is, that is going to be the thing that takes them down. Is them thinking that this is who they are now.

They're able to have police officers just hand them a victim. They're above the law. So that is going to be an issue for them later, but it was too little too late. Whenever you get, whenever I feel like a murderer starts to get that kind of confidence, yep, it's like a tailspin. It's hubris.

I say that tailspin, yeah. And she can't say anything. She can say tailspin. It's hubris. I have a task fun, yeah. Yeah. And she can't say anything, but she can say, tailspin. Hell yeah. And so in the late summer, Burke and McDougal, Helen, his wife, moved from Tanner's close, the boarding house, to a small cottage, not far from the boarding house. Okay. There they shared this, they shared this little cottage with a couple called the Brogans.

I like that name. I do too. It's like very, I don't know why. It's like cozy. Yeah. Yeah. Just here with the Brogans. I like that name. I do too, it's like very, I don't know why, it's like cozy. Yeah, I'm just here with the Brogans. I would call them the Brogis. The Brogis, I would just call them the Brogis with my Brogis. I'm just here with my Brogans.

So some have suggested that the move was Burke's attempt to keep McDougal safe because of what you were saying. After hair and layered had suggested that they murder her to keep her quiet, he might have felt like he had to put a little distance between hair and his wife, which I'm like, you probably should stop murdering people with that guy too. Seriously?

I don't know. Also, I bet it was that. And then I bet what added onto it was the fact that he committed a murder without him. And then he kept the money about it. Yeah. You guys, the other day I was cleaning up my closet because you know I'm switching from my winter wardrobe to my spring wardrobe.

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Also put full awful in anything and I'll eat it and hello fresh did that. They have full awful power bowls that are ready and 15 minutes or less. I didn't have one of those the other night. No, I'm actually really craving one, but the other night I did the Greek goddess quinoa bowls. I'm a sucker for quinoa.

Literally takes 30 minutes to prepare, the freshest chickpeas I have ever put on my taste buds before, and easiest cleanup on the world, 10 out of 10 I had leftovers the next day, and I was so excited to eat lunch. And if you want to be super excited to eat lunch or dinner or any kind of meal, go to HelloFresh.com slash morbid50, and use code morbid50 for 50% off plus free shipping. Again, that's HelloFresh.com slash morbid50 and use code morbid50 for 50% off plus free shipping. HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit. But it was at this house that Bir and Hare met their next victim. A washer woman by the name of Mrs. Hostler.

So one afternoon, the woman had just finished her washing for the day, and Burke and Hare convinced her to return the following day to have a few drinks with them. They were very charming. They were able to convince a lot of people to do this. Sounds like it. And she did. So the next day, after she'd become drunk, they convinced her to lie down in an adjacent room where they killed her by suffocation. So this is what they did. They get their people drunk, and then they do it. And they're people who they know are desperate. They know our own hard times. They know our going to

say yes to a lot of drinks, just to say, none whatever is happening in their lives. And I feel like it's also so important to say, like how long it actually takes to suffocate someone. Oh yeah, like they weren't, this wasn't like a quote unquote easy way to get away with it or like an easy way to do it. Like these people are fucking monsters. Oh yeah.

You have to stand there for like, what is it? Isn't it like seven minutes or something? It's very like for strangling. It's definitely in for suffocation too. It's probably similar. It's brutal. Yeah. And it's aggressive. It's violent. It's aggressive. Like nobody's laying their motionless. They're laying their fighting for their lives trying to breathe. Exactly. It's awful. So fucked. And like for that to for you to stand over somebody for a matter of minutes and do that. Like, you are being shut down. Like there's got to be just nothing there. It's just a cold empty box in there.

It's so crazy. Well, then they just loaded her body into a box. They stored that box in the cold house until later that afternoon. And then they transported it to Dr. Knox. And she got eight chillings for her body. Oh, okay. Not a full 10. So like all over the place. Yeah, he's just, he's just making random assessments. Right. Of price here. Make an assessment. So not, I thought of that same thing, make an assessment. Not long

after the murder of Haasler Burke and, or excuse me, not, I don't know why I just said that all in one sentence. Don't you hate when you go to read a sentence that you wrote and you're like, how do I don't know why, I just said that all in one sentence. Don't you hate when you go to read a sentence that you wrote and you're like, how do I speak? How do I read it? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that?

How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that?

How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? How do I say that? I like overpunctuate everything. See, that's what happened here. And then my brain's like, no comma, just keep going. Who gives a fuck about it? But what I meant was not long after the murder of Hossler, Burke and McDougall welcomed into their home and McDougall.

Same old name. Yes, it's a cousin of Helen's. Bitch. It was actually a cousin of Helen's previous husband, so like tech-cuzz-league. Because of the law. Yeah. That's a cousin though. Drew's cousins are my cousins. Still a cousin. Helen's previous husband. So like tech, cousin of law. Yeah. That's a cousin though.

Drew's cousins are my cousins. Still a cousin. I love them. Still a cousin. One afternoon while the Brogans, the other couple that they were living with were out of the house, Burke and Hair murdered Anna McDougal.

They murdered his wife's cousin. Yep. What? And it was with Hair doing most of the work. Of course. Burke was not the one who did most of the work. So clearly hair is trying to like put some kind of message out there.

Yeah, like you get closer to her. Like, oh, and it's like Burke is allowing it. That made my stomach go a lot. And going to walk. Yeah. If he's like, I'm killing your family members now. Oh, my God. He is, they're both fucked, but like that's at other level. Yeah. It's, I'm, I'm killing your family members now. Oh my God, they're both fucked, but that's at other level.

Yeah. It's, I'm just, I can't. And because of this whole, it's a relative thing. Burke said that he did not like to begin first on her because she was a relative. Oh, totally. So don't worry about that. What was the wife like,

hey, what happened to my fucking cousin? Yeah. She was like, what's what happened to my fucking cousin? Yeah. She was like, what's going on here? But they loaded her body into a trunk, and they intended to take her body to Knox, but before they had the chance, the brogans came home. And knowing that no one in the house owned a trunk,

they started asking several questions as to the origin of this trunk that was now sitting in their house. I'm going to admit something to you. I thought they put her in the trunk of a car because I forgot that we were like way back. We were way back. I was like, nobody owned a trunk. No, no, no. And that's Steve or trunk.

Exactly. Got you, got you. When it became clear, the couple was not going to stop asking these questions. Birken hair. Hey, where did this Trump come from and wasn't it? Like they were literally like, hey, where did this Trump come from? They're like, don't worry about it. And then like, they don't open it. They like walk in the other room and put their coats up and they're like, but about that Trump, like, do you have any information and they're like, no, we don't. And then they're like, okay, cool. Can we open the trunk and maybe just see what's inside.

No, we can't. Well maybe there's like a name inside. Do you guys want dinner? Yeah, we would love dinner. Do you wanna like, should we ask the trunk if it wants to be part of dinner? Like what, they just aren't working to let the trunk go. I don't blame them.

I'm not gonna let a random appearing trunk in my whole go. I'm not. And Birken hair eventually. For record. So for the record. Sorry. Birken hair eventually sat sit for the record, sorry. Berk and Hair eventually sat down with the broken, excuse me, Mr. Broken, and explained the entire situation

to him. They said, hey, it's just like times are tough. And we like to make extra money by murder. And what do you think? And then they said, hey, do you want to be in on this and get some of the money? If you don't say anything, and he was like, And then they said, hey, do you want to be in on this and get some of the money? If you don't say anything and he was like, okay.

And he meant it. Yep, and he meant it. He said, okay. I thought you were gonna say he meant it and then he motioned for the police. He said, I know you can't call them back then. He said, yeah, that's fine with me. Wow.

How does horse shit find horse shit that then finds some more horse shit? What's crazy too is that with each murder committed in this particular period, they're just growing increasingly reckless, first of all. And they're also pulling apart from each other drastically. They're doing things on their own. They're not listening.

They're killing each other's relatives at this point. Like, shit's going down. Now they're inviting other people into this whole scheme. Like, bitch, the more people you have in this scheme, the more shit is gonna fall apart. It's not the merrier. No, it is not the merrier. They're also splitting that profit in way more pieces,

which is way less advantageous to them with their murdering people. Yeah. And now you're splitting the profits. Like now they're splitting it four ways. But are they not because this one didn't take place and layered sporting home? I think because she is part of it.

She gets that one shilling just for her silence. Oh, I see. That's how he's able to hold all these people. They are able to hold all these people. And that's why McDougal is such a liability to that because she's not getting anything for it. She's not getting anything for her silence. Yep.

And they're not just gonna pay her unless she has something to do with it because you need her hand to have blood on it. So you can go, she did it too. Yep. That way she's not gonna be eager to go to the authorities because then she has to admit that she's been part of it. Okay.

So, they're not getting that from her. This is not so. So that brings us to the beginning of the end. Oh. So for obvious reasons, and with very few exceptions, Berk and Hare killed mainly elderly and incapacitated and transient, like down on their luck women. Yeah, that seems to be their, oh, they go away from it.

That, well, although they were almost always opportunists, like they were always just, they weren't like following people and like trolling for days, you know what I mean? Their preferred victim type likely had something to do with the fact that women were just much easier to overpower in their mind. And that, but what's wild is like at least one of them, and probably more of them, there was evidence that they tried to fight back versus. And this became very evident in the, in this whole thing that like they were definitely doing

this because they could overpower their victims. Yeah. It became evident that they thought this was the case and that it wasn't in October when they murdered James Wilson, who was otherwise known as Draft Jamie. What does like Draft mean again? So I'll explain to you,

according to George McGregor Wilson, he was described as quote, a lad who well deficient in intellect was kind at heart. Don't you dare, he was a universal favorite. Stop among the townspeople he was. Now, Jamie's had a very kind nature. He was not confrontational.

He was an onaggressive man. People loved him. He was very beloved. But he also was kind of like a frequent target of bullies. Fuck that. They would just like taunt him and shit. And in his early 20s by the time of this happening, Jamie's father had died many years earlier and his mother was

a hawker who was often traveling, selling goods. So he spent a lot of his time just wandering the streets in Edinburgh. If Jamie doesn't live, I'm leaving. So as a result of this, he became a very familiar figure to people around town, especially to the people who would just out of the kindness of their heart, give him food and gifts, because he was just a nice kid. Oh, I love him. And he's in his 20s at this point, but to the people who would just out of the kindness of their heart, give him food and gifts, because he was just a nice kid. And he's in his 20s at this point, but I say kid, but that's a kid.

That's kid, yeah. And they kind of looked after him in a way, because they just knew he was like, you know, he needed it. See, there is some kind of community here. Yeah, there is. I was looking for it. There is.

Now, Jamie Wilson was definitely not only the antithesis of a typical Birkenhair victim because he was not a drinker. He was not a woman, right? He was not, he was pretty strong. He's not an older person. He's not older. And he's well-known to everybody in town, very well-known. Like, this is like, front page of Time magazine kind of well-known. Like, even more so than the very most. So, yeah. So, this is like front page of Time Magazine kind of well known. Like even more so than the very most. So yeah, so this is just like totally the antithesis of their typical victim. He was also the stupidest choice for a victim.

Because like I said, he didn't drink. You're not going to apply him away with alcohol. Yeah. So what the fuck is your move? And then you have to overpower him while he's sober. Yeah, he can fight you. He's he's not going to be not gonna be easily lured away. And when he is suddenly gone,

everyone's gonna notice immediately. Yeah, he's like everyone's kid. You're not gonna be able to bring him to Dr. Knox and have it be like, oh yeah, it's just weird, Daph Jamie just dropped in. It's like no, no one's gonna believe that. Now, it was actually Margaret Laird, who'd chosen Jamie as a victim

because she discovered him alone and looking for his mother at a grass market one day in early October. Fuck you, Margaret. Yep. That's what I said. You. Now, according to Burke, Jamie agreed to accompany her back to the boarding house, but he was very anxious the entire walk back to the house and kept asking questions. My God, you're ruining me. When they reached the house, Laird left Jamie with hair while she went to find Burke, whom she eventually found at a local shop and the two of them went back to Tanner's close, the boarding house. Back at the house, Laird left the three men alone,

which they offered Jamie some drinks. And after a little while, and Jamie did drink with them, he became a little tired and laid down at the bed. And that's the point where hair laid next to him. A few minutes passed before hair threw himself on top of Jamie and attempted to cover his mouth and nose. The same thing. Jamie, however, was neither drunk or incapacitated at this point. So he started struggling and resisting, and the two men fell from the bed and continued to struggle on the floor. Eventually, though, Burke was able to get a hold of Jamie's feet and legs, which he held

tight as hair suffocated Jamie. No. So he, like, they almost lost this one. And this was the stupidest thank goodness, they were so stupid, but this is so tragic. I'm like so. They're all tragic, but this one's just like, yeah, are you fucking kidding me?

Like, and like Margaret, go fuck yourself. Like he's looking for his mom and that's when you fucking pray. And he's clearly like, like intellectually a little immature. Yeah. And it's like he's looking for his mother and he's like in his early 20. Like, come on. That's that is fucking discussed. It's a pile. It's really violent.

Angry right now. It's and I had hope. I know. I feel I felt bad building you up like that, but I was like, I don't know how it was. That's how you tell the story. Now, in nearly every case, Birken hair were very careful to get rid of their victims' clothing and whatever possession the victim had on them at the time.

So they were just doing anything. I found them naked. Essentially, they just bring the body to the dark and dark. And in this case, though, their victim had a lot of belongings. Most times their victim didn't have a lot of things on them because they didn't have a lot of things in the world. Was he walking around with a lot of things?

He had a lot of belongings and he had some things of value because he was, you know, which they ended up just splitting between them. They just stole all the things and eventually they gave his clothing to Burke's brother Who passed them on to his younger children and he knew yep? Fuck this yep So and this is the thing so his brother didn't know but like they they knew that he was gonna be They knew that constant him was gonna give these clothing this these clothes to his children

Yeah, and they still allowed it to happen. Because they have actually no souls. Yeah, because of Constantine Burke and the children didn't recognize the clothing. So they were like, okay, they did eventually end up trading them for like other items in town, but still. So putting Jamie's very recognizable clothing

and belongings out in the public because they were selling these goods now too, that was a really bad idea. Because it's not like you just like sold them to like some random person. You literally gave them to people in town that are connected to you. Exactly. And then you sold the belongings he had to people in town who are like, wait, I know what this is. And oh, I got that from Birk. Exactly. And then you sold the belongings he had to people in town who are like, oh, I know what this is. And oh, I got that from Birk. Exactly. Oh, I got that from hair. Exactly. Or a way to... Exactly. So the more significant problem was that the boy would almost certainly be recognized by Dr. Knox. Right. That was the biggest problem. Like when you bring

this kid in, they're going to know exactly who he is. So indeed, when it was brought to him, he wasn't home, but when they arrived with the body, his assistant didn't really look very quickly. Okay. So he just was like, okay, and he was like, you know what, can you return the next day and you know, nox will be here and he'll pay you. So the next day when they did inspect the body, several of Nox's students were like, that's Jamie. Oh.

And they were like, what the fuck, but Nox was like, you know what, ready the body for a dissection? So he 100% recognized this body just like, but he was like just ready for a dissection. What the actual fuck was? And then he assured his students this ever-so-fresh male subject could not possibly be anyone they knew.

What? Yeah. Like, you really need to dissect that bad. You've had how many bodies have we had up to this point? 15. Yeah. Like, I think you've learned some stuff. Or maybe we can 14 at this point. Take a second.

Yeah. The fuck? And later, the students were interviewed by police later. Obviously, because they were very much unwillingly involved in this. They all told investigators they were pretty certain this was Jamie, but they didn't want to swear on it because they were, Knox had told them that it wasn't. Well, and then they're obvious they're

being intimidated by somebody who has power. So they're like, and can determine their future. Exactly. So the final murder occurred on October 31st. Oh, yeah. Did they do that on purpose? I don't know. This is when Burke met Mary Dockertey.

And it was in a Rimer's Grocery store that morning on October 31st. So like the grandmother, the pair had brutally murdered earlier that summer, Dockerty had come from out of town in search of her son. Oh! It was virtually unknown to anyone in Edinburgh. Oh, no. So Burke struck up a conversation with this older woman telling her that he'd also come to Edinburgh. He was from Ireland.

And you know, wow, crazy. My mom's maiden name is Dockerty. So maybe we're related. Probably not. So in what she likely took as a friendly gesture, Burke invited her back to the home for breakfast with he and his wife. And she was like, great, absolutely friendly.

I tried to make a friend, exactly. Maybe they can help me find my son. Right. So once they were in the house, Helen McDougall tended to this new guest. Well, Burke went off in search of hair. OK. When he'd finally found hair, they went back to Burke's house

where they found Helen and the guest cleaning up after breakfast. Well, it would have been pretty easy for them to overpower and murder Mrs. Dockerty because she was very frail. Sure. The real issue that they were facing was getting rid of the couple who had been staying with Burke and McDougall for over a week.

There was another couple in the house and they must have seen her coming in and eat breakfast. Exactly. So they were like, fuck. So, it's trying to think quickly here and Burke told this couple that he'd run into an old family friend and he wondered if it would be terribly inconvenient for them to maybe find another place to stay for a night or two, just so they could have this Mrs. Dockerty, this family friend. He even went as far as suggesting they could stay with hair and layered for a few days.

And the couple said, sure. So that evening, things went about the usual way. They had, so the couples had dinner with Mary Dockardy, Bark and Hair and Lairden. They shared like multiple meals with this woman. Like really got to know her. Wow. Probably heard all about her life.

All about her submissing son. They had dinner with her at Bark and McDougal's home. Afterwards, they sang, they danced, they drank, had a great time with their really, like, had a little party. It's, I just can't even. But whatever the case was, whether this was a planned ruse that way,

or if they just really got into it that night, we're like, enjoyed her company and still decided to go through it. Around 10 or 11 that night, they, it became a little loud and disruptive because they were, that's in like, happy loud and disruptive, not fighting. Yeah, they were like having fun. Dan Fong drinking, singing. And it was drawing attention of neighbors.

So people wanted to know what was going on. So a woman from the house next door went to look through the window and she saw what she later told police was Helen McDougall, quote, holding a bottle to the mouth of Dockardy pouring the whiskey down her throat. I always knew that I saw Helen McDougall for exactly who the fuck she was. Later that evening, the disruption continued when Burke and Hare got into an actual argument, a violent one, and they only stopped when Mary Dockerty fell from her stool and crashed onto the floor.

Oh, no Mary. And she couldn't get up. So Laird and McDougal, the two women, used the opportunity to get out of the house, which is when Burke and Hare used the same method that they always used to suffocate Mrs. Dockerty. But they did do something a little different with her, which I don't know if this was them trying something different that they were going to employ from here on out, or if this was just, I don't know. Okay. But whichever men was doing the actual suffocating, at some point they had used their hand to strangle Mrs. Dockerty around the throat and this

left deep bruises on her neck. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my podcast Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like

the mysterious New York City drugings, Breaking Down Lori Valow, a.k.a. Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine. Hey, prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psychie Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today.

Hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena. And Ash, and we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa! You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show everyone was watching was about to come on. Well, in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, In our podcast with Wondery, the rewatcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer,

we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten stored. Join us. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action, and romance! Episode by Episode Slacy. Follow the rewatcher of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Darn, ee-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e Now, she was dead. They stripped her of her belongings and Burke sent for Knox's assistant and they explained that they just had another body to sell.

Wow. Crazy. I can't. Now, also, so they make the call to like, hey, you need to pick up this body tomorrow. And then they just went about the party drinking, dancing, until the early hours of the morning. With a dead body. And then they just rendered brutally. They had just exactly.

Yep. Wow. So the following day, November 1st, Burke went to the boarding house to check on the lodgers that had been sent to the house and invite them back home for breakfast, saying that their family friend, that old woman that they had met yesterday, she had grown very impudent, perhaps having taken too much liquor and they found it necessary to put her out. That's how they put it. Put her out.

Yeah. So one of these lodgers, Mrs. Gray, thought that Burke was behaving a little strangely. And she said he was very nervously watching her and calling after her when she began cleaning around a pile of straw near the corner of the room. Burke kept up his weird, like, anxious behavior for most of the morning. And when several of the occupants of the house needed to go out that afternoon, Burke actually instructed Mr. Brogan, who knows about all this stuff now, to sit in a chair by the bed in the corner and not move until he returned.

Okay, Blair Witch, what the fuck? So he did. He sat in the chair, he didn't ask questions at first. And then when Burke left the house, he waited until he was out of sight because remember, this guy just joined this whole thing. He just wanted money. Yeah, he was like, he's not gonna save your ass. So, Burke said a side person.

So, and also, he doesn't give a shit. Like, this is not a good guy. This is somebody who just doesn't give a shit. Exactly. So, when he tells him you got to sit by this corner, the bed near the straw in the corner, he's like, sure, sure, sure. So, he sits there, Burke leaves.

Once he's out of a site, Brogan just leaves the house. Like, he didn't, he was like, I'm not doing that. Yeah, like, fuck off. So he left the house and then Mrs. Gray, the lodger who thought that he was acting very strange. She's now alone in the house. Yeah.

And she takes this opportunity to investigate whatever it was by the bed that Burke was definitely trying to hide and was definitely trying to have, like, guarded by Mr. Brogan. So she starts poking around the straw pile in the bed next to the bed, excuse me. And she found the nude body of Mary Dockardy. And he loved to imagine all around her mouth and nose.

Why did she have blood around her mouth and nose? Because she had been violently strangled. And probably I'm assuming they might have like hit her or something, oh my God. Something bad happened there. And she also had fallen from her stool. Right, I don't know if she had any traumatic fall there. So she literally finds this naked old woman

who was clearly murdered in a pile of straw in the corner of their bedroom. Wow. So she knows why she was sent out the night before. So she immediately tells her husband. She's like, we gotta get the fuck outta here. And the two of them start gathering up all their belongings and they're like, we're getting the fuck outta here. But then.

So Mrs. Gray is packing and Mr. Gray started carrying things downstairs. And as this is happening, he ran into Helen McDougall. I knew one of those fuckers was lurking. And when he ran into Helen McDougall, he demanded that she explain what the fuck was going on. Like, he was like, you tell me why the fuck there's a body in that bedroom. Like, you tell me. And at first, she tried to just like dismiss the question. Yeah, because she's a little butt head. But she kept pushing. He was like, no, you can't, you literally can't dismiss a body in your bedroom.

Like you need to explain that. A naked old woman's body in your bedroom. Like tell me what that's about. Oh, fuck. And so she finally broke down and said, I suppose you know very well what it is. Uh, I don't though. And then she begged Mr. Gray not to say anything and then offered him several shillings in exchange for silence.

And then he then Helen told Mr. Gray that dockerty had died at that night from an overdose of drink. Yeah, right, bitch. Why is there mouth all bloody? But she he did not believe her. Of course, like no. And then she decided to switch her tactics.

You remember innocent McDougal over here. Remember everybody. I don't remember because it always had her tactics. You remember, innocent McDougal over here. Remember everybody. I don't remember, because it always had her number. Poor innocent Helen. She had nothing to do with this. Fuck Helen. She decided to change her tactics when Mr. Gray wasn't going to believe the she overdosed on drinks so we stripped her naked and tied her in a pile of straw.

So she was like, okay, and she started trying to convince him to join in on the scheme. He's like, yeah, I have a conscience, though. That's the only problem. Helen's also an actual piece of shit. All four of these assholes are pieces of shit. I knew she had, there was too much going on for her not to know about. Yeah. And the fact that she went along with it and didn't get paid is like wild.

Yeah. It truly is. That's how she did more. Yeah, truly. Like I'm not saying like, well, sure they were getting paid, so that's why they did it. But it's like, no, you weren't even in on this. Yeah, you weren't even like,

what the hell was going on in your head? You were still cool with it. Yep. And so she couldn't convince anything to, she couldn't convince them to join the scheme. She wasn't getting a promise of silence from them. So she followed them into town. Oh shit.

And they ran into layered in town. Oh shit. And they ran into Laird in town. Oh, I'm so nervous. Somehow the Grey's agreed to join Laird and McDougal at a nearby public house for like a drink. What? And the women continued to try to convince them to stay quiet. They bought them rounds of drinks. They used every argument.

They could try to convince them that this was something that was fine, ethically. Y'all don't drink a drink that they buy you. What's good is they were very unpersuasive. The grays got a bunch of free drinks out of the deal. There you go. And they left the bar that afternoon and went straight to the police.

Love that. I love that they're like, you know what? Yeah, we could use a few drinks first. You can buy me some drinks first. Yeah. But when they went to the police, they were made to wait several hours for someone to even listen to their story. Oh, good.

Yeah, that checks. So when Mr. Gray was finally able to tell his story through a police sergeant, the officer said that Gray was simply a disgruntled tenant looking to cause problems for his landlords. I feel like, do you want to maybe go talk to any one about this, though? So that's what he was like, do you want to come back to the house

and check and see if the body's still there? And maybe he's still there. And the corner of her room, do you want to do that? So they were like, yeah, totally. So he went with Mr. Gray to the home of Burke and McDougall and Burke confirmed the Sargent theory saying that the Grey's were former tenants and that he'd had to turn them out for bad conduct.

Oh, please. So Burke was like, yeah, you're right. Like, they're just, they're just shitty tenants. But then the officer did a little search of the home. And there he found spatters of blood on the bed sheets. Yup. And the floor. And like, and this was all where she had been killed before being brought to Knox.

Yeah. And it all matched up with what Gray had told the police. It was the same room. It was the spatters made sense for what had happened. So when asked, Burke and McDougal gave very inconsistent stories about who the woman was when she left. And this alone was enough for the police to be like, you two need to come in and we're gonna question you for a thing.

Because they're like, you can't agree who she was or when she even left. And why is she in your house? Like, she's literally in your fucking house. So Burke and McDougal were taken down to the police station for questioning. The next day, officers went back to Burke's home to do a more thorough search, and they found more blood stains, and they also found Mary Dockardy's blood stained clothing. Meanwhile, additional officers,

they also brought a police surgeon, Dr. Black. They all went to Dr. Knox's address where they discovered Dockardy's body, but the body, sorry. Dockardy's body being ready for dissection. Oh my. Yeah. So they had the bloody clothing and the body now in their possession. And so now more officers were sent to hair in layered sporting house, where they were informed, where they informed Margaret Laird that Captain Stewart wished to see her husband.

So as they had done with the grays, Laird tried to just dismiss the whole thing. The whole evening events are being misunderstood here. She overdosed. We didn't do anything. It was just runken revelry. But she was very unsuccessful, just as they were. And both Heron Laird were taken into custody as well.

And Burke and McDougal now were officially arrested after being questioned. Her and lared are just being brought in for questioning. So throughout the fall of 1828, Burke and hair made tons of reckless and very risky decisions. In the beginning, they were doing things pretty undercover. They got so fucking reckless at the end. It unabled.

Like it's really wild to why it's a true downfall for them, but they were so fucking brazen. And so weirdly confident that they could get away from this. It is crazy how confident they were. That's the thing. Like Burke was even trying to explain away that why Dockardy was in his house. Like why her body wasn't his house?

Like, it's wild. It just can't just show how fucking, like, delusional they were, or like, like confident. It's like, what? Like, you really thought that was gonna make sense? Or that was really gonna work? Weed into you here, the story he tells. You wanna hear the, because he told you one story.

And now this is the other story he tells. Okay. It's, so his first formal explanation for why Dockardy's body was in his home. According to Burke, he and McDougal had begun their day like any other day. Any other day. And suddenly a man approaches him looking to have some shoes mended. He's a cobbler after all. I literally forgot that. Yeah. Burke had never seen the man. He didn't remember his name. He couldn't tell you anything about him. But he agreed to help him out and he took his

shoes and began to work. And while this stranger is, while he's working on this stranger shoes, this stranger just drags a trunk into his house while he's working on his shoes. This can't be real. And he's working. He's just working. And he's like, I don't know why you have that crazy trunk in here, but that's fine. And Burke said, it's so weird.

I could hear the man removing the ropes that were used to secure the trunk. And then I heard this sound of a man like burying something under a pile of straw. I think it was. Like, that's the sound that I heard. No, I must go. And I think that pile of straw was next to the bed.

Yeah, it sounded like that. I've left. And he said, and then that man left. Me too. And then I discovered what that man had left in my house, and I tracked him down, and I demanded that he come back, and he removed this body. And this guy said, sure, I will, but I can't come back until tomorrow morning to do it. And he said, okay, my guy, I guess. Okay, my guy. He said, sure, I will, but I can't come back until tomorrow morning to do it. And he said, okay, my guy, I guess.

Okay, my guy. He said, all right, I guess I'll go back and just live with this naked dead body in a pile of straw in the corner of my bedroom for tonight. As one does. And then you come back and you take this out? And I didn't know him at all,

but I just figured he was good on his word. Yeah, you know, he seemed like a trustworthy guy. This murderer, he just seemed, you know, like this stranger with a dead body approached me in town. I don't remember his name or his face. What is he with damn thing about him? He asked me to cobble a fucking shoe. I said, sure, why not? He came back to my house with me. He drags the trunk in my house. I hear him burying a body. I find said body. Find him in town and say,

hey, you better come get that body out of my house. And he says, I'll do it tomorrow morning and you say, I believe you. I believe you, sir. I think you will come back. I think you will come back and get this body. I'm shook. And he said this to investigators,

like they were not gonna be like, are you fucking shitting me? Are you shitting my dick, Burke? Are you really saying this story to me? A seasoned fucking investigator. And I'm gonna go, wow, that what bad luck? Did they even, what shitty luck Burke has?

Did they even give him an answer? Were they even, were they just like, you know what, we have to go now. You're going to jail, bye. Oh yeah, and then, well, cause I'm sure it was one of those things where he went through that whole thing and they all just stared at him and you could hear the blank, blank, blank, blank.

Cause then he was like, yeah, and you know, it's crazy. I met that woman earlier in the day. Cause he couldn't stop. This isn't absurd enough. We have to add on to it. He goes, yeah, she was begging for money. And he said, out of the kindness of my heart, I invited her back to my house for a meal and for some drinks.

And she returned to town after that. After I had fed her, after I had also given her alcohol, she left my house and she went back into town and I said goodbye. I hope you had a great I hope that I fed you well. I hope I have done I hope I have done what I'm the teachings have told me to do to feed you to bring you in and I send you back out to town and he goes I never saw her again. I never saw her in my house until that man left her dead body in my house. Like what a coincidence. And he says a day or two later, the stranger sent two men

who Burke had never met before. Oh, so they lived in the body. And he goes, one of those men who I had never seen before came to my house and his name was William Hare. So now he is claiming that this stranger that dragged a trunk into his house that contained a dead woman who he had met earlier that day, brought to his house to feed and give drink because he was just so kind.

Send back into fucking town to be murdered by this stranger, the drag to trunk in his house and hid her in a pile of straw in the corner of his bedroom. He claims that he went back into town, found this man said, you need to come get this body out of my house. This man said, I'll come back later. This man said, I'm sending two of my guys to come get this lady. And he said, sure, these guys show up at his house and he says, never saw him before, just too strange,

just me, but one of them was William Hare. Like, motherfucker, you must've seen around town. I could ask Joe Schmoe from down the street, like, hey, you know, Birkenhaar and they'd be like, oh yeah, those fuckers. I'm a shook. Like, you're well known in town. Not only are you friends, your wives are friends.

You have, you're a squad of four. Yeah. Like, what? Yeah, and like, like, it's Unbelievable. It's unhinged behavior and this is fucking ridiculous It's incredible that he told this story thinking it was gonna do anything but make everybody go what? But you know why he every part of the story Makes sense for why he put it in there as absurd as it is

makes sense for why he put it in there. As absurd as it is, he was trying to explain one, why people, because he knew he had been seen everywhere. He had been seen with this woman. He had been seen with, he had been seen with hair. He had been seen everywhere. So he's doing this to say why people had seen him with Mary Dockardy, both in town and at his home, because neighbors had seen him with Mary Dockerty, both in town and at his home, because neighbors

had seen her in his home, to why her body and traces of blood were found in his house. He's explaining that away. Of course. Why the body had been seen by Grant the house, but then when the officers came back later that day was gone. He was gone. He's saying, well, those two men came and took her away. So that's what I have to tell you.

And it's also to say why hair had been seen selling the body to Dr. Knox the next day, because he was one of those strange men who came and got that body. I have, like I've said it before, I'll say it again. I have to go, like, what? It's absurd, it's ridiculous. And I'm like, wow, you really hit every,

you tried to hit every possible thing that could connect you to this and explain every part of this, but in the stupidest way imaginable. Seriously. Like, really wild. And even more wild and unfortunate for him was that it didn't line up with fucking McDougal's

a fucking professional. We're fashion about it because they didn't talk about this. She's like, nah, me and my hubby are bros with them. Sorry, we murdered. One of the main discrepancies between his version of events that he just told

that wild yarn that he just spun. Oh my god, I love when people call a crazy story yarn. Yes. The main difference and the main issue between that yarn and the one that McDougal's gonna tell is that she was like, oh, yeah, we spent the day drinking with William Hare and his lady, Margaret Laird.

Cause we're friends. And they're like, oh, like one of the guys who came to get the body that Burke has never met and didn't know who he was. You guys spent multiple, multiple, multiple months. If not years, wasn't years? So I spent years, I mean, I'm in the same place.

I'm in the same place. It's like, and you didn't ever, like I'm happy that you didn't, but like it's mind-boggling to me. That not once did you sit down and say, hey, like, if we do end up getting caught, we got to do this. This is what we'll say.

Hey, no. Hey, Helen, hey, Laird, come on over. This is what we'll say. Hey, no. Hey Helen, hey layered. Come on over. This is our story that we should stick to. Yeah. You fucking imbosils. Yep. Like what?

Yep. What? Yep. It's wild. I have to go. I love thinking about burk being like, and then these two men show up and they come to get the body. And I said, oh my god This strangers in my house coming to get this body of this woman that I out of the kindness in my heart

I fed and I've sent in town and she was dragging a trunk into my house This is wild these two strange men and these two strange men one of them is William hair It's wild. I've never met that man before in my life. I don't even know who he is. I don't know him I don't know him investigators I do not know him. And then they're like, cool, thank you. And they go in the next room and they're like, hey, Helen, can you tell me what you're doing today?

And she's like, oh my god, absolutely. Totally. We were drinking all afternoon with William Hare. With our lady Margaret Laird. And it's like, wow. You know, people never cease to surprise me. Never. Never.

Never. Never. After Mick Dougal pretty much gave up the go People never cease to surprise me never never never never after McDougal Pretty much gave up the ghosts there after she shot a fucking Megalodon sized hole in that story Fuck ripped a hole the size of the ozone layer in that story. I think that's a feeling. Oh good for that. Yeah good for that news Yeah, we we've always done up a little. We're doing something really.

Like, electric cars, right? You know what? Positivity. Yeah. I like that. Look at the joy candle. Look at that joy candle. Anyway, she's standing up straight.

She cute. But after that, Burke was like, okay, yeah, I murdered her. Like, he was literally like, uh, okay. He's like so sorry that I took a creative writing class a few weeks ago and got confused with that while I was here. But I did kill her because they just came over and were like, hey, you drink with them. We know that you're like real broy with William hair. We know that you want to you want to you want to edit that statement you gave? And that's all it took. He was like, yeah, I murdered Mary Dockardy and several other people with a little hair.

That was literally, from the sounds of how close these couples were, that would be me saying, if John walked into a room and the police were like, hey, do you know that man? I'd be like, never seen him before in my life. No, never seen him. And they're like, but you referenced him on this podcast multiple times. I think that literally my peer sister's but I'm like no, I don't know that but I don't know her

It's a stranger. I don't know what it's it's truly wild. Wow It's really you can see now like they were just dumb Just dumb Angry guys, angry guys. That's all. Dumb, angry guys. So basically, the authorities in Edinburgh knew enabled it in order to get a conviction, they just had to get the four of them to turn on each other. Yeah, that's right. That was four of them seemingly easy.

Yeah, and it might have been because of his younger age or because Dockerty's body had been discovered in Burke's house, but Lord Advocate William Ray, William Ray, he determined that hair would be the one most likely to turn on Burke. Okay. Because although, like, Burke is agreeing that he knows hair, he hasn't thrown him completely under the bus yet. Hair also just, like, gives me more diabolical vibes.

Yeah, and hair is going to turn on Burke. He's going to turn on McDougal, and they're like, he's going to turn on Laird. I don't think he's got any kind of hair. And hair. And hair, he'll see to these people. Hair is the one that does the actual suffocating, right? Yeah, I think he's the aggressor. Okay, for sure, but they both are.

But hair is just, it's not about him. Yeah, it makes me a little scareder. Agreed. Well, I'm more scared of him. Agreed. I don't know why. I thought it was kind of funny that like Burke

essentially like implicated hair already, but like go off king, I guess like sure hair is going to turn on Burke. Sure. But despite that, raise assumptions seem to have been pretty well placed because he offered hair immunity in exchange for a full confession and hair happily accepted. He said, glad that I got my neck out of the halter. And as for poor Bill Burke, well, he must go hang, I suppose. Sold his friend right up the river. God. And was like, guess he's got a hang. He never gave a shit about him. No, he didn't give a shit about anybody. I don't give a shit about either of them. From both of these losers. From the moment they were arrested and put in a jail cell, all four of the accused were prevented from seeing

or speaking to each other. They couldn't communicate at all until the drug. And this makes it that it was probably a huge surprise to Burke that hair had literally turned completely against him because he had no idea. He went into trial being like, and then it's like all of a sudden hair is like, I'm the star witness.

It's like, what's like that must have been like, excuse me? When he probably especially didn't expect that because he was the one that really did more of the actual suffocating. Exactly, like are you fucking kidding me? So as Lisa Rosner pointed out, when the Warns for a Rest and in Carceration were handed down, Birkin McDougal probably had some idea that the Lord Advocate was being given information by either Laird or Hare.

Like Lord Advocate. I know, isn't that like a wild like okay Scott Disson. Right. It's up beside Lord Advocate. Lord Advocate. Lord Advocate. Like, so he probably had an idea that information was being given about the hair and lared. Like, the first warrant for the murder of Mary Dockardy was sworn out against all four.

And so was the second one, which was against James Wilson. And only after hair is detailed confession, the warrant for Wilson's murder was amended and was only against Burke and McDougal. So Harry had no. No, no, I guess it. The same happened for the warrant for the murder of Mary Patterson, which was only named Burke and McDougal as the perpetrators in that one too. So now Burke and McDougal are being...

Wow, I cannot see that coming. I didn't either. Damn. Now, like we said throughout this whole thing, it's very unclear the exact extent that Helen McDougall played in these murders. She obviously participated in some way, be it an outside side thing. You know, like, she definitely had knowledge of what was happening. Yeah. Like, definitely had it. But throughout the murder spree and confessions,

William Burke went to great lengths to completely distance Helen from any of the schemes and to protect her from any prosecution. And for that reason, Burke probably felt even doubly betrayed when he learned that hair hadn't just sold him out, but it also sold McDougal out. Because throughout the entire thing,

he had tried to protect her. And it's like now he made sure. To like in that's the thing, you know hair was just so fucking happy to be able to put McDougal in that. I mean, he literally wanted to kill her. So yeah. Now over the centuries after this, Helen McDougall's name

has kind of disappeared from the retelling of this story. Like, she's in there, but no one points to her as like, what the fuck were you doing? Yeah, exactly, I do. But at the time of Harris' confession, which they basically were, they were really going off of Harris' confession at this point. He identified her as equally responsible for the crimes. And so Burke and McDougall were the only two prosecuted for the murders. Are you kidding me? Burke and McDougall were indicted December 8,

1828 for the murders of Mary Dockardy, James Wilson, and Mary Patterson. Their trial began December 24th, and it went a full 24 hours. It was presided over. Went into Christmas. It went into Christmas. It was presided over by a panel of four justices. It began at 9 a.m. and from the moment the doors were opened, the courtroom was packed. Yeah, because we were just like,

fucking fine, you're on a courtroom. And they just wanted to see these ghouls. They'd read a ton about them in the paper because there was tons of media surrounding this case. And after they read the indictments, both of the accused pleaded not guilty. Before the trial could begin, however, Burke's attorney or argued it was inappropriate for his client to be tried for three unconnected murders. And after a long discussion, the justices agreed

with Burke's attorney and ruled in favor of trying one case at a time. So they didn't want to try the three unconnected murders in one trial. So after they announced the decision, Lord Advocate William Ray was given the opportunity to choose which charge he wanted to begin with, and he chose the murder of Dockerty because he figured it was the strongest case. advocate William Ray was given the opportunity to choose which charge he wanted to begin with,

and he chose the murder of Dockerty because he figured it was the strongest case. Right. So the trial went on with several witnesses saying they had seen Dockerty with Burke throughout the day, and also because Blake, excuse me, Burke had claimed the woman was a heavy drinker, at least one witness refuted that claim, telling the jury she, quote, never saw her worser for liquor. And after also the prosecution laid out the evidence of the murder, including the body having been discovered by the grays in Berks' house, the blood stains on the clothing,

the blood stains on the bedding, on the floor, the examination of the body showing very clear evidence of strangulation. And that she did not die of an overdose? Yep. The strength of the physical evidence was definitely bolstered by the crown's key witness, hair. William hair. He testified that it was Burke who plotted with McDougal to kill Dockerty for money.

And he said, quote, he had an old wife in the house and that it was a shot for the doctors. And he went, so hair went a step further telling the jury that Dockardy had left the house several times but had been enticed to come back inside each time by none other than Helen McDougal. So throughout the trial, Lordocate William Ray and his assistant prosecutors were very very deliberate and very measured in their questioning of hair on the stands. Okay. They were very careful to avoid any kind of question

that might incriminate him in any of the crimes. Well yeah, I mean that makes sense. He did however admit on the stand that he had sold the body to Knox. Okay. But his participation in the murder of Dockerty was otherwise very minimized. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, his role in the actual murders completely ignored. There were no witnesses called by the defense. They just completely ignored it.

And after the evidence was given, and closing statements were made, the jury deliberated. It was a little after 8 a.m. on December 25th. On Christmas. Oh my God, I'm surprised by that. Took about an hour and they returned to guilty verdict for Burke's participation in the murder of Mary Dockardy and he was sentenced to hang. Mary Christmas Motherfucker, the charge against Helen McDougal was found to be unfounded. Oh.

So that's why you don't hear her name and her guilty ass in this story. What's even worse is it's 100% a certainty that Margaret Laird was involved in the whole scheme. She's paid, but she got no consequences. And what about hair? Yep. So it's so wild to me. While Burke did his best to shield Helen of consequences

for the crimes that they committed, it was really the defense attorney, Henry Cockburn, who saved her from having to hang. I mean, yeah. Throughout the trial, he painted a picture of McDougal as a beautiful wife who lived with seeing many things which are better imagines than told. Basically saying she saw some shit, she knew what he would do to her, so she

kept her mouth shut and she did what she was supposed, what she was told to do. And it was true that she hadn't informed the police of Burke's crimes, but it was only because she quote, felt oblig- obliged to make false statements in order to protect Burke and avoid basically becoming destitute. Yeah, like go with, and in this time, especially, that is an argument. She didn't want to be thrown out on the streets because that was almost certain death eventually.

Right. And so they were basically being like, she feared for her own life, which doesn't give her, like that doesn't spare her from being a criminal, but it also is like a way to defend her in a court of law. Exactly. You know, like that doesn't spare her from being a criminal, but it also is like a way to defend her in a court of law. Exactly.

You know, like it makes it like- I understand the argument. Exactly. It also helped her case immensely that there was no evidence and no testimony that could even slightly connect her to the murders, right? Which she was found not guilty in the end. Now on the morning of January 25th, 1828, a crowd of nearly 25,000 people gathered in the lawn market, which is a town square off high street.

And they watched William Burke hang in the gallows. Damn, so people were like abandoning their Christmas meals. Just be like, let's go watch this man. Well, this was January 25th. Oh, this was January, my God, sorry. Maybe I did say December by accident. No, you probably said January go watch this man. Well, this was January 25th. Oh, this was January my dad, sorry. Maybe I did say December by accident. No, you probably said January. So months later.

No, no, no, you said it right. You were right. Months later. Okay, okay. But what's kind of ironic is, Burke's body was donated to the medical college the following day. It was dissected by Professor Alexander Monroe,

the doctor that they were looking for initially when they accidentally knocked on Dr. Knox's door. Yo. Isn't that wild? And he was dissected in front of an audience of nearly 20,000 people. Wow. Yep.

And when he finished the dissection, Dr. Monroe, apparently he did this thing and it's called an anatomist ritual. Okay. In this called where he dipped his quill into the blood, still contained in Berks' head, and wrote the following declaration in blood. This is written with the blood of William Burke, who was hanged at Edinburgh on 28th of January, 18 was on the 28th, excuse me, I gotta run. That's okay. The 28th of January, 1829, for the murder of Mrs. Campbell or Dockerty, the blood was taken from his head

on the first of February, 1829. They were on some, they were on some wild shit back then. They really were. That's on like some opium thought process. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know what we should do?

We should make a declaration. Dip a quill from the head of his skull. Yeah. Like, and y'all were really godfiring. I don't know about that. I mean, if you're worried about whether Helen McDougal just went on to live her life, I can help you not worry about that. I was. That was my next question after I got past the fact that they just like wrote a quick little post-it with his fucking blood. She was released from custody following the trial and she tried to go home. How that worked out. She was met by a large group who'd assembled outside of her house and made it pretty clear

that she better get the fuck out of Edinburgh or they were going to make sure that she didn't get out of their lives. It's pretty assumed that she fled the city later like very quickly after that, but No one knows what happened to her after that. Okay left Edinburgh hit me up with the Deets on hair People do think she was killed by an angry mob or that she changed her name completely and lived in like Like isolated something Wow and lived in like isolated something. Wow. Well, I will say the family of Jamie Wilson, the young man who everyone literally knew and loved.

They protested against hair's freedom. Good. And aggressively petitioned the government to reconsider the immunity he was given in exchange for his test. I bet. The Wilson's petition was given very serious consideration, but the crown ultimately decided

that they were going to keep the immunity for his testimony and hair was very unfortunately released from custody on February 5th. But unfortunately for hair, the public knew what he fucking did. And his very much equal participation in the murders, they knew about that too. It took less than a day for a mob to assemble outside the boarding house, intending to kill him themselves. For his own protection, he was taken into police custody, where he was dressed and disguised

and escorted out of the city via the road to Carlisle. Although he was never seen or heard from again, it's believed he either went to England or went back to Ireland. It was never seen or heard from again, it's believed he either went to England or went back to Ireland It was never seen or heard from again. You know That motherfucker murdered again 100% because he got he was the one that in my opinion was way more diabolical I think they were both fucked up and I am all about hair. There was more to that something about him

Yeah, he got away with it holy shit. Yeah, that's crazy They should look into some fucking untold letters. I know. I know wherever he went. I actually want to look back and see if there's any connections later. There's got to be. I'll let you know if we find anything. I don't think he just like was like,

oh, molten, old. See you later. I'll just live a very quiet life after this. I'm going to help you. He's probably bolstered. So she was released from custody in mid-January, and she left Edinburgh for Glasgow. And while she was released from custody in mid-January, and she left Edinburgh for Glasgow. And while she was in Glasgow,

she was discovered by an angry mob and had to be rescued by the authorities who put her and her baby. She had a baby at this point on her both hairs or not. And sent her to Ireland. Shit. Although, although we don't talk about,

like when you read about this story, you don't hear a lot about what happened to Dr. Knox or his wrongdoing and all of this. Right. He definitely claimed ignorance for sure, but he was confronted by authorities and they were like, you definitely knew something was a mishear. You might not have known the details, but it's pretty hard to believe that he had no idea that they were possibly murdering people to supply him with bodies. Because that last body had very clear evidence.

Dockardy had clear evidence of being strangled and he turned his eyes the other way. He also pretended like he didn't know that it was Jamie. But what's weird is Burke, when he confessed, went out of his way to clear knocks of any wrongdoing as well. He swore that knocks, quote, never encouraged, never taught or encouraged him to murder any person. Yeah, I'm sure he did and I think he just turned a blind eye. And it's like, yeah, no one's saying exactly. Like no one's saying that he told you to go murder people

but like he knew you were. He didn't tell you to stop murdering people. Exactly. And it's like luckily because you should definitely not didn't tell you to stop murdering people. Exactly, and it's like luckily because you should definitely not be let off Scott free here. The public didn't forget his participation and everything either. Good. And after public outrage,

he willingly resigned from his position by bitch and Knox left Edinburgh several years later and resettled in London where he died in 1882. Peace out, motherfucker. And that is the story of Birkenhair. Girl, that's a wild tale. And you did like a really great job telling me. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you so much. I was like, and thanks to Dave for like, David deepened that one. I love Dave. We love Dave. Dave. He's notorious.

It's, and you know what, we got to, we're working on another one that connects to this case. Oh my God. And I think Dave described it as like a Hardy Boys, like a Hardy Boys book, but if there was serial killers and coffins. Yeah, that's exactly what this had actually. I was present for that combo.

So it's gonna be great. I've intrigued. This story just is like fascinating to me mainly because of the ending. One, how reckless and risky they get in brazen. And now they just fuck everything up from within. Yeah. Two, how hair. William hair just, I don't know what it is about him, but I'm like, you're scared. Like Burke is scary. But like a hair, I'm like, something about you. And then the fact that he just gets away with it. Well, he like asserted dominance by like killing his cousin. He did. And was like, I also want to kill your wife.

He was just, and then he made sure that she had to go, he had to get named in those indivents. Like, yeah. That's some like, power shit. And it's like scary. Like, those are some of the happened between him and McDougal. I know, right? I think he made her in a chance that like she was like, that she forgot for me.

Yeah. And he was not about to deal with that. I mean, like, I just like really like made a leap there, but I don't know. I don't know. I think, well, I think there's a Buffy episode recently where it's like, don't jump to conclusions. And it's like, I just took, I think she says like, I just walked around the corner and their conclusions were. Yeah, exactly.

I think this is the same situation. It's like, I don't think that's the leap. You just walked around a corner and their conclusions were. And with that being said, we were talking the other day, we're always like, oh my gosh, we should do like a chiller episode for a palette cleanser,

which like we're still gonna do. But if we ever do like an intense case and you need a palette cleanser, or if you don't and you just wanna listen to another show, go listen to the rewatcher buffy that they have highest layer. Yes. It's so much fun. We're rewatching buffy.

Elena has seen it a million gazillion trillion times, but I never have. And in the last episode, they used a clip from Taken of Liam Neeson saying, I will find you and I will kill you. And you don't know what that's in reference to. And if that's not the goal, listen enough. And if that's not the goal, listen enough. I don't know about you. They put fun clips in there and fun little sound things.

And it's like, it's so fun, guys, like that podcast gives us the most joy in the entire world. That's just fun, silly nostalgia. Yeah, exactly. And if you don't know, now you know. Yeah, go listen to it. So with that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it.

Wee! But that's weird as hair. Definitely not so weird as Burke and hair ever, or McDougal or Larry, but never, ever, ever keep it as weird as hair. Because I don't even know how weird that mother fucker kept it, but he kept it too weird. I can tell you that. Yeah, he definitely kept it too weird.

So like, bye. Bye. even know how weird that mother fucker kept it but he kept it too weird I can tell you that. Yeah he definitely kept it too weird. So like bye. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.