Morbid - Episode 576: Veronica Gedeon & the Easter Sunday Murders (Part 2)

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

On the afternoon of March 28, 1937, Easter Sunday, Joseph Gedeon and his daughter, Ethel, arrived at the home of Gedeon’s wife, Mary, for a planned Easter dinner. The Gedeon’s had been separated for some time but had agreed to have dinner together as a family, which included their other daughter, Veronica, a moderately successful pulp magazine model. When they entered the apartment, it appeared as though no one was home; however, upon checking the bedroom where his daughter slept, Joseph Gedeon found the nude body of his daughter lying lifeless on the bed and immediately called the police.During an initial search of the apartment, investigators found the body of Mary Gedeon stuffed under her bed; like her daughter, she had been strangled to death. In a third bedroom, police also found the body of Mary’s boarder, Frank Byrnes, who’d been stabbed several times in the head and neck with a long, thin implement. There was no sign of a forced entry, no sign of a struggle, and nothing appeared to be missing from the apartment. Given that Veronica had been found nude, and Mary was clothed but her underwear had been torn away, investigators assumed the murders were a sex crime.Still caught in the grip of the Great Depression, New Yorkers welcomed anything that could distract from the unpleasant realities of daily life and the salacious murder of a pulp magazine model—a sex crime, no less—was exactly what they were looking for. The story dominated the press, as reporters and tabloid journalists dug into Veronica’s personal life and dating history and published lurid photos from her past. But when the killer was finally caught and the motive revealed, the story was far stranger and tragic than anyone had imagined.Thank you to the wonderful David White of the Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research!ReferencesBrooklyn Daily Eagle. 1937. "Cops question ex-lodger in triple murder." Brooklyn Daily Eagle, March 29: 1.—. 1937. "Doubts student is killer." Brooklyn Daily Eagle, April 6: 1.—. 1938. "Irwin's guilty plea." Brooklyn Daily Eagle, November 15: 10.Buffalo Evening News. 1938. "Irwin, ruled insane, sent to Dannemora." Buffalo Evening News, December 10: 1.2015. A Crime to Remember. Directed by Jeremiah Crowell. Performed by Jeremiah Crowell.New York Daily News. 1937. "3 murdered in model's flat." New York Daily News, March 29: 1.—. 1937. "Gray hair in model's hand chief clue in triple murder." New York Daily News, March 30: 1.—. 1937. "Willful Ronnie 'made fools of men,' dad says." New York Daily News, March 30: 3.New York Times. 1938. "139-year sentence imposed on Irwin." New York Times, November 29: 48.—. 1937. "Fingerprint clues found at scene of triple murder." New York Times, March 31: 1.—. 1937. "Gedeon gets bail." New York Times, April 3: 1.—. 1937. "Gedeon questioned again in murders; solution held near." New York Times, April 1: 1.—. 1937. "Irwin flown here; boasts of killings." New York Times, June 28: 1.—. 1937. "Irwin, wild-eyed, meets reporters." New York Times, September 1: 20.—. 1937. "Women jam court to glimpse Irwin." New York Times, Jukly 1: 56.People v. Robert Irwin. 1938. 166 Misc. 751 (Court of General Sessions of the County of New York, March 24).Schechter, Harold. 2014. The Mad Sculptor: The Maniac, the Model, and the Murder That Shook the Nation. Boston, MA: New Harvest.United Press. 1937. "Sculptor hunted as triple killer in Gedeon cases." Buffalo Evening News, April 5: 1.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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We get support from Coho, the proud partner of the NBA playoffs. Coho is a master card with a simple to use app that makes managing your finances easier. With Coho, you can earn cash back, build your credit history, borrow when you're in a pinch, and so much more. No hidden fees, no fine print, and no catch. Just an app that's made for your money. They have plans to suit all your needs, and you can build your credit history. Coho users have seen an average of a 22-point increase in their score in three

months, which is great for those starting out or just need help rebuilding their credit. Join over 1 million Canadians and sign up for your free trial now. Download Coho on Google or App Store today or at www.coho.ca for more details. Get a $75 e-gift card for NBAstore.ca when you sign up with the promo code morbid75. That's code morbid75. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this right here, folks, is morbid. It's morbid. Hey! We've been getting so wily in the introductions lately. We have. We've been doing a lot of recordings.

Yeah. I think so we so wily in the introductions lately. We have. We've been doing a lot of recordings. Yeah. I think so we're just like, ah, gotta make it new and fresh. Ah. I know. And I forgot even to tell you guys at the top of the, cause this is part two obviously

of the Gideon family murders. I forgot to even tell them at the top of part one that it was a tupada. Oh, it's a tupada. Yeah, by the way, if you hear for part two. This is part two. It's tupada.. Oh, it's a two-parter. Yeah, by the way, if you're here for part two. Hey, this is part two. It's two-parter. I mean, there's a lot.

Yeah, there's a lot going on. It's like Michaela says, go to part two. Go to part two. That was good. That was good on both ends. That was real good. My favorite is when she does her eyeliner and she says, nice and sharp.

That eyeliner could cut a man. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Makeup. Makeup. Kayla.

I don't know. I feel... We're wily. So crazy. It's been a silly day in this pod laboratory. It has been a silly day. A good day, if you will. And people keep seeing doubles of me in my house.

Yeah. That's occurring. So I told the story like probably like a month or so ago now that I saw a double of you. But then Mikey admitted to us today. That he also saw a double of me. He seemed to double weeks ago. He didn't even tell us. He didn't even want to scare us.

The man didn't even inform us. He was scared. That's scary. What's going on with you? That's what I'm wondering. Someone tell me. I think going on with you? That's what I'm wondering. Someone tell me. I think it's because you're spooky. I like that reason. It's like the X-Files of it all. That explanation worked for me. Yeah, because Elena was like, well, why isn't anybody seeing

tumbles of John in the house? And I said, because he's not spooky. Yeah, he's not. He's really not. You, on the other hand. Yeah. Spooky as fuck. Spooky as fuck. And I don't live here. Yeah. I mean, I spend more time here than I do at my own home, but. Yeah. I'm just surprised.

I want to know what it means. What does it mean? Because I'm like, why am I showing up? Mikey said that it's because I say out loud a lot that I wish there was more of me to do the things that I need to get done. So maybe I wished it. I'm a manifesting queen. Maybe you manifested something, some kind of fuck shit.

Something ominous. Because I don't love that. Any thread that I found about like what doppelganger things are is like not good. Well, damn. I'm sorry to inform you. I didn't like the feeling. Well, damn.

I didn't feel threatened like when I saw She Who Shall Not Be Named, but I felt scared after the experience. Yeah, I don't know. And I only saw her very quick. She didn't like me. She didn't like you. And that's weird because you really like me. I like you.

Yeah. I've heard. Yeah, so you've heard. Made a career together and shit. Yeah, it's true. I mean, ask some people and they'll say different, but... I was like, what? I was like, no, you can't argue that. And then I was like, no, you can't argue that.

But yeah, I don't know. So I guess we're just going to ride this... We're going to ride this train all the way and see what happens. See who next sees a doppelganger of me in my own house. What if your fucking kids see it though? That would bump me out. Then I'd have something to say to her. That's when me and her would come to blows.

Oh my God. What if it's like that episode of Buffy though, where like he intended to split Buffy in half, but he split Xander in half. But what if somebody actually did split you in half and you have to fight to the death and only the weaker one dies. Fuck, am I the weaker one or is she?

I don't know, I only saw her for a second. She's ominous and she can appear and reappear, so me tends to believe. But I have to, I don't know. I think I'm the stronger one, I'm the one getting shit done over here. She doesn't seem to be doing much, so. Oh, I would not say that out loud.

I mean, she's me. She's part of you. Yeah. She's not you though. Well, she needs to pull her weight around here is what I'm saying. I'm leaving. I'm going. I'm going elsewhere this weekend.

She needs to start pulling her weight. Maybe take some stuff off my hands. That would be great. Don't say that. Oh God. I mean, like, now she's going to rip your fingerprints and shit. I haven't even seen her. I have.

And so is Michael. Ash's face is like terror. Because I don't fuck with that kind of shit. Like I'll talk about that kind of stuff. Like I enjoy like talking about like paranormal and stuff and that kind of thing. But I don't fuck with it. Like, I don't talk to it. I don't, uh-uh.

Yeah, I mean, like, hey, she hasn't bothered me. So that's... Don't say that. I'm trying to say that it's fine. Like, you're not doing anything wrong. It's cool. You're just kind of... I just want to figure out what you're all about.

It's really what it is. I'm just trying to figure out where you came from. OK. You know? Let's move on before we get this whole dug any further. We'll move on. Why don't I pull a tarot card? Yeah, do it. And see what-

Do you have a deck? Maybe I could sound bowl after. Everyone's like, maybe you could just tell us the other side. Everyone's like, it is part two. Will you just tell us? I'm just going to pull one out at random. Yeah, like put, feel what feels right though. Yeah, like I put- Like feel the energy. I'm going to hold on.

Energy. You made me double think it. without random. Yeah, like put, feel what feels right though. Like feel the energy. Yeah, like I put, hold on. Energy. You made me double think it. Like close your eyes and feel the vibes. What'd you get? Did you get death? No. What'd you get?

The tower. Oh! I fucking hate that card. I don't like it. Mikey's gonna shit himself when he doesn't have noise canceling headphones on. If you guys know anything about the tower, just try to explain that to us in this situation. Pray for me, I guess.

All right, we got to get into this. I'm fucking terrified and I'm leaving after this. Let's get into this. This gets Wiley. Let's get into this. You thought this discussion at the top was Wiley. Part two is Wiley. It's real Wiley.

So in part one, we got familiar with the dynamic of the Gideon family and unfortunately, found out that two of the four of them, Veronica Ronnie and her mother Mary had been murdered along with a border in their apartment, Frank Burns. The police were pretty stumped because there was no sign of force to entry. No one had alarmed the otherwise territorial dog, Tucci.

And every suspect or person of interest they had so far, including the father of the family, Joe Gideon, whom they beat mercilessly, had not panned out. But taking a closer look at Ronnie's diary and the man who she simply referred to as B, eventually gave them the lead that they needed. At the end of part one, we found out that a possible suspect for the B mentioned was Bob Irwin, who had actually been pretty obsessed with Ronnie's sister Ethel and was a previous border at their home.

Yeah, that's scary. Not the apartment that they lived in currently, the one where they were killed. But the bigger one, right? But the bigger one. Now, it's actually pretty unclear why no one had thought to mention Bob Erwin when the diary was discovered, and investigators were seeking a man with a B initial. But anyone with even the slightest familiarity with Bob Erwin probably would have thought he made a good suspect.

Born in 1906 in Pasadena, California, Bob's life had been really, really difficult from the start. His father, Benjamin Erwin, was the Bob's life had been really, really difficult from the start. His father, Benjamin Irwin, was the founder of, I shit you not, Fire Baptized Holiness Church. You didn't just put that into like a random generator online and that came out? Fire Baptized Holiness Church, which was not a church. I didn't. I was like, church. No, I didn't.

I was like, please tell me that it's not real. No, it was a fanatical Christian cult operating out of Northern California. Benjamin, the dad, eventually abandoned the family. It was when Bob was still very young, leaving him and his two brothers in the sole custody of their mother, Mary, who was equally fanatical and put her religion before literally everything else in her life,

including the care of her children. Yeah. That's sad. It's his story, Bob's story, I will tell you right off the bat, is very sad. Oh, that's terrible. But left to their own devices, Bob and his brothers ran completely wild. I think it's the Vidalin or Vidalin and Pember Erwin, they were Bob's older and younger brothers, they quickly fell into a life just filled with a ton of criminal activity. They would spend nearly the rest of their lives in and out of reform schools, jails, and prisons. And Bob too had his own run-ins with the law and spent a few years in a reform school. But unlike his brothers, he had a natural talent

for art and sculpture. Which earned him some sympathy with adults. I had a feeling. But unfortunately, while he did indeed prove to be actually an immensely talented artist, by the time he reached his late teens, Bob was also beginning to show signs of very severe mental illness and delusional thinking. In his

late teens and early 20s, his talent had actually earned him the admiration of several influential people in the art world. And he actually earned apprenticeships with some pretty notable artists of the time. But due to his paranoia and explosive anger tendencies, those opportunities almost always fell apart not long after they started. Like he just had these big outbursts. He just couldn't handle it. Now, in 1932, he was sent to the Burke Foundation, which was a voluntary psychiatric facility in White Plains, New York.

And after nine months at the facility, he left the clinic, claiming that he, quote, left to get away from a couple of female employees who began to make life miserable for him after he rebuffed their sexual demands. But in truth, a social worker later clarified that Bob had left the facility because he had gotten into, quote, so many violent quarrels with other patients that he feared his behavior would lead to serious consequences. Ah, there it is.

So Bob moved into Mary Gideon's boarding house on East 53rd Street in October of 1932. So that's five years before the murders. Coincidentally, also right around the time that Ronnie started her diary that the police had found in 1937. But it was there that he met and quickly became enamored with Ethel Gideon.

In many ways, Ethel reminded Bob of his last girlfriend, Alice Ryan, who he was still very obsessed with. Once he'd settled in at the boarding house, Bob tried to resume his art, but he found that his thoughts of Alice and preoccupation with sex dominated his mind day and night, preventing him from producing any kind of work. So I want to give you a little bit of a trigger warning for self-harm here. Finally, after a week of torment and no productivity, Bob decided to try to rid himself of these sexual preoccupations once and for all. According to Bob, on Wednesday, October 27th, he went into the bathroom at the boarding house

and put a rubber band around his penis and went for a walk around town in order to numb the area. When he got back to the boarding house, he then went into the bathroom and attempted to remove his penis with a Gillette razor. He got about halfway there, but obviously that was incredibly painful, even having numbed the area, so he was not able to finish. But he managed to get himself from the house to the Bellevue Hospital with the rubber band actually kind of acting as a tourniquet to keep him from bleeding out. He checked in under the name James Adamson and calmly asked the night intern to finish the job. Oh boy. The intern simply bandaged him up and told him to come back during the daytime when the

surgeon would be on. So Bob came back several hours later, still insisting that they remove his penis completely. But instead the surgeon applied antiseptic and sutured the very serious wound and then admitted Bob to the psychiatric ward where he remained for nearly five months. And after that, after his stint there, he was transferred to Rockland State Hospital in upstate New York. Ooh, that is rough. Yeah.

And that is very, very sick. Yeah. He, this very, very sick. Yeah. This man is severely mentally ill. And it's sad that not much was able to be done about it to keep him in a safe place and to keep him one from hurting himself, because obviously he's inclined to do that and to keep him from hurting anyone else. Like this man is not somebody who should have lived on his own and like been on the streets, unfortunately.

Absolutely not. Like there's, there needed to be some serious help happening here. And the system, obviously, I mean, it's the thirties. Like there's not, not a lot in the way of mental health. Not at all. Like anything, so. I mean, not a lot in the way of mental health. No, not at all. Like anything. So I mean, we were just talking about, you know, the Marion Parker case, which was in

the 20s. But it's like, we're not far off from there. And they were still treating it in a very different way than they treat it now. And it's interesting, actually, because like, when we get to the trial part of this, it's we were like talking about it in the Marion Parker case and how William, William Edward Hickman, Hickman, how he was like very clearly trying. Yeah, he was making a valiant effort to seem insane. Yeah, to act like he was. In this case, he's not trying, he just is. Like, this is very clear. This is coming from a very genuine place of not sane.

So we're literally like taking your trial that we just discussed and turning it on its head. How it would go if he really was. Yeah, it's interesting that we ended up doing these back to back because we don't usually tell each other about our cases until they happen. But anyway, during his time at Rockland, excuse me, Bob proved an unruly patient. He made several escape attempts, including one incident when he made it all the way to downtown Manhattan to the apartment of his previous psychiatrist from Bellevue.

Luckily he was able to be apprehended and returned to Rockland before anything happened. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre that you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and even new ways of thinking. Find the genres you love and discover new ones along the way. Explore bestsellers, new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts, and originals that members can listen to all they want, with more added all the time. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your daily routine without needing to set aside extra time. There's more to imagine when you listen. Guys, I have been listening to The Name of the Wind. It's the most beautiful title that I have been listening to the name of the wind. It's the most beautiful title that I have ever listened to I literally paused my Bravo shows and I was just absolutely sobbing

I 10 out of 10 recommend it and by the way as an audible member You can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog including the latest bestsellers and new releases New members can try audible free for 30 days visit audible comm slash morbid or text morbid to 500 500. That's audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500 500 to try audible free for 30 days audible.com slash morbid. Summer is in full swing and we're all looking for ways to save money for road trips, staycation, or summer camp for your kids. You may not expect to find a deal at the pharmacy counter, but with GoodRx, you can instantly save up to 80% on your prescription medications. Using GoodRx is easy and totally free.

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For simple, smart savings on your prescriptions, check GoodRx. Go to GoodRx.com slash morbid. That is GoodRx.com slash morbid. At Rockland, that was the place where he received his first official diagnosis of hebofrenia. It was a subtype of schizophrenia, which the psychiatrist at the time described as being characterized, quote, by foolish mannerisms, senseless laughter, delusions, and regressive behavior.

This diagnosis actually no longer appears in the diagnostic. I was gonna say. Yeah, it's not in the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Now we would just classify it as simple schizophrenia. Yeah, I was gonna say, because I've never heard of that. Yeah, it's-

That's interesting. It's dated. But the symptoms of delusional and disordered thinking and distorted reality, among others, are still acknowledged in the schizophrenia diagnosis. So now he would just be called schizophrenic or treated as such. So after a few years of bouncing around from one boarding house to another, Bob reappeared at the door of Mary Gideon's boarding house in the early summer of 1934, just a few months

after Ethel's marriage to her first husband was annulled. Because remember, she had a teen marriage of her own. Yeah, that was like a thing. Yeah. I think it was a thing to get out of the house. Because I think the house was very dysfunctional. Yeah, for sure. So now that he was once again in Ethel's presence, Bob felt particularly inspired, actually. Because she was, like I said, she was beautiful.

And he began sculpting again. He was devoted to Ethel from the moment that he returned to the house. But while she liked the attention and the adoration that she received from him, she was never actually willing to commit to a relationship with him. For her, it was just kind of like a fun thing.

Yeah, just like flirting with this guy. She found him to be like an attractive man. Yeah, so she's just like- A lot of people actually did. Yeah, so she's just like, you know what? Yeah. We're just having a flirtation. It's a fun thing, but she never saw it. Yeah.

Seriously. So actually, by that time, she had already started dating Joe Kudner, who she ended up marrying, and who was obviously far more stable than Bob, and somebody that she could see a future with. Yeah. But despite her intention to marry Joe, she still indulged Bob, flirting

with him and actually allowing him to sculpt her. So it was while he was living with the Gideons that Bob began experiencing delusional thinking and started believing strongly in what he called visualization, which he believed was the ability to manifest things purely by mental power and focus. He believed that through the process of visualization, he could obtain everything he wanted for himself, and he became very frustrated when things didn't appear to be going his way. Which I imagine happened a lot. Yes, absolutely.

He was absolutely desperate to be with Ethel, but no matter what he did or how he tried to prove his love for her, she was resistant because she loved Joe. After several months in the house, Mary, the mother, who had always been actually pretty fond of Bob, took him aside and very gently expressed her concerns that, for the sake of her daughter's future, she was, quote, anxious that Ethel have nothing to do with Bob. Which I think she put it gentler than that, but that was essentially the message.

But that's what he took from it. And she said she wanted her daughter to marry a wealthy man and not have to struggle like she had in her own marriage. So I think she was saying to Bob, like, I want something better for Ethel. And also like, I want you to move on. Yeah. Like she said, I don't, she's not going to marry you. She's not going to be with you. Like you you to move on. Yeah. She liked him too. She's not going to marry you. She's not going to be with you.

Like, you need to move on. Yeah. And it sounds like she went about it in like the kindest way that she could have. That she possibly could, exactly. But undeterred by Mary's words, Bob continued to pursue Ethel romantically. And a few months later, while the two were out for a walk along the pier, he insisted that they should get married. Oh boy.

Now, at that point, having grown tired of Bob's relentless advances and honestly his increasingly bizarre talk of visualization, I can never say that, and other strange beliefs, Ethel finally explained that while she hoped they could remain friends, she had accepted Joe Cudner's proposal and they were going to get married in the coming months. Bob later told a reporter, I just went crazy. In the weeks that followed, he spiraled into depression and heavily contemplated suicide as he bounced from one boarding house to another.

And then he was dealt another serious blow in October when after putting up with his poor attitude and sullenness for months, his boss let him go from the production factory he was working at. In response, Bob grabbed a nearby meat cleaver and threatened to, quote, split his boss's head right down the middle. Holy shit.

So now out of work and desperate, Bob actually returned to Rockland Hospital, where he voluntarily committed himself for treatment. Which... That's interesting. It is interesting that he does, like, obviously know enough. He recognizes. It seems like he has these periods where that's interesting. It is interesting that he does like obviously know enough. He recognizes. It seems like he has these periods where he's good. Where he's like lucid. Lucid, exactly.

And like realizes like, Oh no, I need to get some kind of help. And he goes to get the help. And it's like, I wish that they would have just recognized that he needed to stay there. Yeah. Cause it's like, cause I think this is like, it was just like before medication before any of the advances of understanding what these things are, how you can deal with them tools that you can use to get through these things.

Psychiatrists helping you like be like, okay, when you feel this way, this is what I want you to do, or this is what I want you to try or visualize this like like coping appeal to his visualization thing, but like make it more of a tool that he can use to like get himself out of these really intense emotional situations. Yeah. And it's like they just didn't have that. And just offer him a safe space to stay while he is going through it. He's going through all that. Exactly. So based on everything that they learned about him, detectives became convinced that Bob Irwin was most definitely their suspect. Sounds like it.

Yes. But the only problem was they had no idea where he was. A police spokesperson told reporters on April 5th, we've been looking for him since the murders. We think he's the man. I hope he hasn't committed suicide. In response to a citywide alert, Bob's former landlord, who had actually been renting him a room directly across the

street from the police precinct, contacted police. But by the time they arrived at the boarding house, Bob had packed his belongings and fled. And the landlady had no idea where he had gone. But she did remember that Bob had two suitcases with him. And one of them had a distinct looking strap wrapped around it with a large buckle to keep it closed. So that was a pretty key detail to remember. So the news about the manhunt for Bob Irwin came as a shock to very few people who knew him well, but among those who found it hard to believe was actually Ethel Gideon. On April 6, she told reporters, I cannot believe Irwin is the man who killed my mother and sister.

Well, she provided investigators with everything she knew about Bob, more than 18,000 officers mobilized across the city in search of the suspected killer. At Rockland Hospital, detectives learned that Bob had actually been discharged the previous October and since then had just been kind of bopping around to various boarding houses across the city. And during his time at Rockland, his most recent time, they informed investigators that his religious delusions had worsened and he'd actually started studying religion like almost exclusively, completely casting aside his sculpting and his art. And it's like that's the only outlet that man has.

And where he was raised in such a place where like religion was not a place of comfort or a place of solace or something to believe in. It was like probably a punishment. That's probably not a good place to be going. Yeah, it wasn't great. So on a hunch, investigators went to Grand Central Station and asked the baggage check attendant whether anyone had checked luggage resembling that which had been described by Bob's landlady. As luck would have it, somebody matching Bob's description actually had checked

that very bag they were looking for and that person had not been back to retrieve it in days. So presented with the suitcase held closed with the strap and the buckle, investigators searched its contents and found inside them that small alarm clock that Ethel said was missing from her sister's dressing table at the apartment. So this piece of evidence only further confirmed their suspicion that Bob was the killer. The hunt for Bob Irwin was the largest since the hunt for the Lindbergh kidnapper five years earlier. Wow. But despite their best efforts, it was not the NYPD who ultimately found Erwin, but a tip from a reader of True Detective magazine.

You could not write this. You literally couldn't. You could not write this. Just as they had done before, the editors of True Detective remained committed to helping find Ronnie's killer because remember, she worked for them. She posed for the covers. And she was friends with them. Yeah, they got to know her.

They loved her. So to that end, they offered $1,000 reward for information leading to an arrest. Today, that would be over $21,000. Wow. It was huge. In late June of 1937, an employee at the, I think it's Statler Hotel in Cleveland, Ohio,

happened to be flipping through her copy of True Detective on her break, and she noticed a police photograph of Bob Irwin, and she thought, huh, that actually looks a lot like the new bar back Bob Murray. Stop. And this motherfucker, amused by the resemblance, showed the photo to Bob. And from the look on his face, she could tell that it was way more than a mere coincidence. Yeah. So Bob fled the hotel that day.

Why would you do that? Why would you show him and say like, oh, this guy looks like you? Come on. Like that's a dumb ass move, I'm sorry. So he fled the hotel. And by the time detectives made it there, he was gone again.

Awesome. So by the summer of 1937 now, Bob Irwin's photo was plastered across billboards, magazines, newspapers, all around the country at this point. And it was only a matter of time before they caught up with him. Wanting to get ahead of the story, Bob ended up placing a call to the Chicago Tribune with an offer he knew they would not be able to resist. He told the operator, I'm a friend of Robert Irwin who was wanted in New York for the Gideon murders. He wants to give

himself up. What kind of deal can you make with him? Now after getting through- And this is him. This is him. This is actually him just pretending to be a friend. He's like, I have a friend. After getting through to the right person, he offered the paper a complete exclusive confession in exchange for $5,000 cash, a white linen suit, and a Panama hat. Stop. Given what they were being offered, the Tribune jumped at the opportunity. Of course they did. And agreed to meet him at the office of managing editor John Deonhart, where Bob sat down and told his story.

The man who did it is sitting pretending to be a friend telling the story. If this doesn't tell you that... Oh, at this point, he wasn't even pretending to be a friend. He was Bob. Oh, he's saying it's actually him. Yeah, it was the friend who called and set all this up, but was like, I can get Bob to you.

So Bob sat down with them. Wow. Yeah. I'm without... I'm speechless. Now, at that time, it was actually pretty common for the press to pay criminals for their exclusive rights to their stories or any kind of other information that they deemed valuable as news reporters.

But this was the first time a newspaper had knowingly and deliberately shielded a murderer from the law in order to get a story. Fucked. He murdered three people. He came in this place and said, I'll tell you the story. They were like, yeah, let's just let him do that. I'm also not call the police. Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? I'm so surprised that they weren't charged

with obstruction of justice. Truly. I think this, it got so sensational and like it got so beyond that, that probably once he does eventually get convicted. So once it ended there, they were like, whatever. But I'm like, what the fuck kind of precedent does that set? Yeah, that's really fucked up.

Now there's no fucking way ever that that could happen. No, no. But this happened. I'm shook by that. And the fact that his name, cause you've been saying Bob. So I forgot that his name is Robert. And I think Steve Irwin's son is named Robert Irwin. And he's a lovely, lovely guy.

He is lovely. I follow that whole family on TikTok. He's very much a Steve Irwin. And it's bumming me out so much to hear that name, like in conjunction with like something so terrible. It's weird that we started this with doppelgangers. Whoa. That's weird.

Little strange. This is really just same name. Robert Irwin, the Steve Irwin DNA seems lovely. Oh yeah, seems stand up guy. But the Chicago Tribune at the time, not a stand up newspaper. So they were like, yeah, let's do it. Because essentially they just wanted to secure the exclusive rights to have advantage over every paper in the world, which honestly is hilarious because spoiler alert, it didn't

end up working out for them. I can't imagine why. But they were the first to technically get to the story. On the evening of June 26, 1937, Bob Irwin sat down with reporters and photographers from the Tribune wearing a suit at the Morrison Hotel and just started his story. Wow. This is so bizarre. I've never heard of another case like this. at the Morrison Hotel and just started his story. Wow. He told them. This is so bizarre.

I've never heard of another case like this. He told them, that night I said to myself, I'm going up there and killing Ethel. I never intended to get anybody but her. I thought that after killing Ethel, then they would kill me in the chair, but I didn't care. He continued on that he had indeed been in love with Ethel and that when she rejected him, he became so obsessed that he was just not able to focus on anything else. And after several months of hospitalization, he decided the only way to regain his focus was to rid himself of Ethel and that's why he was resolved to kill her.

But not wanting to mar her beauty, he said he decided to stab her in the back of the neck with an ice pick from his apartment. That is so chilling. And it's such disordered thinking. I don't want to ruin her beauty, but I want to end her life. What the fuck? Like, I feel like that just goes to show you like that something was not clicking upstairs. Summer is jam packed and the heat is no joke. So guys, we gotta prioritize hydration.

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On the night of March 28th, he went to the apartment on East 50th Street and rang the bell. Having always liked Bob, Mary happily let him into the apartment where she was prepping for Easter dinner the following day. He told the reporter, Mrs. Gideon did not want me to have anything to do with Ethel. Outside of that, she was always very friendly to me. They chatted pleasantly in the kitchen for a short time. Mary even introduced Bob to her newest boarder, Frank Burns. But eventually, Bob started becoming impatient and asking where Ethel would, when Ethel would be home. Confused, Mary explained that Ethel had moved out of the house years earlier because she was now married to Joe.

But according to Harold, I think it's Schechter. Yeah, we've done a couple of his books. He, I think you used his book for the Ed Gein case. Yes. He wrote a book about this case called The Mad Sculptor. Ah. And according to him, the last time Bob had visited the apartment, the Ed Gein case. He wrote a book about this case called The Mad Sculptor. And according to him, the last time Bob

had visited the apartment, Ethel had actually been staying with her mother temporarily. And quote, Bob had gotten it into his head that she and Joe Kudner were separated. Oh, wow. Yeah. So after a few hours, Mary became impatient and somewhat bluntly explained that Ethel

wasn't going to show up. And since it was getting late, she wanted to go to bed. But undeterred, Bob insisted he was going to stay until he saw Ethel, which prompted Mary to yell, get out of here or I'll call the Englishman, referring to Frank Burns, who was now asleep in the next room. The threat caused Bob to become completely irate, and he rushed toward Mary. He recalled, "'At that moment, I hit her with everything I had. She fell back on the floor with her legs back over her head. I grabbed her by the neck.

She scratched my face like nobody's business.'" Good. Good for her. I know. He said he then choked her for nearly 20 minutes until she was dead. What? And then he simply sat back down at the kitchen table and continued on

waiting for Ethel. He said, she was the one I felt I must kill. I simply had to finish what I planned. And remember, Frank Burns is asleep in the next room, but he didn't hear anything because he was deaf in one ear. And he was asleep on his good ear. As he waited, it occurred to Bob that Ronnie might return home before Ethel, which presented a serious problem. He told the interviewer, she was beautiful, and I hate to destroy beauty. In that moment, Bob was reminded of something that he'd read recently about how a bar of soap wrapped in a towel could make an effective blackjack that he could use to stun Ronnie and nothing more. So he went to the kitchen and grabbed the bar of soap

from the sink. That's why that's soap. That's why it was there, which he wrapped in a dish towel and then returned to his hiding place in the bedroom. A little after 3 a.m., Bob heard Ronnie returning from her night out, which lined up perfectly with what Stephen Butter had told them. And after saying goodbye to Butter, she entered the apartment and went straight to the bathroom, where she started her little nightly routine, removing her makeup, just getting ready for bed.

He said, she stayed in there the longest time. I thought she would never come out. But finally, just before 4am, Ronnie entered the bedroom and Bob swung the soap bar as hard as he could, striking her on the head. He said it didn't have the slightest effect, which like obviously, obviously, but in his mind that was totally going to work. So with, with his blackjack having crumbled to the floor and Ronnie having now seen his face, he grabbed her by the throat and started choking her demanding to know where Ethel was. And she just came home to her house. Yeah.

Just in the middle of the night. How many times does everybody else in the world do that? This is BTK behavior of like waiting in someone's closet until they come, like until the middle of the night. Like that's fucked up. Now, when Ronnie explained that her sister was at home with her husband, Bob lost all control and started strangling her.

He told the reporter, "'I wanted to let Ronnie live if I could. We were always pals. I suppose she thought I was going to rape her. She said, please don't touch me. I just had an operation and the doctor said if I have intercourse, I could die. Bob estimated that he held on tightly around Ronnie's throat for nearly two hours. What the fuck? But he couldn't say for certain. He said, when you get in a mix up like that, you don't think about what you're doing and time means nothing.

I'm like without words. It's beyond. So once he had choked all the life out of her, he ripped off her slip and left her body on the bed and then stuffed Mary's body under the bed. He never said why he did that. Yeah, maybe just so the only thing I can think of is she wouldn't be immediately found. I guess. But or I like why he ripped off her slip. I mean, slip like why he left her naked on the bed. Yeah. I mean, strange. But he was about to leave the room when he noticed the small...

This is really interesting and just strange. He was about to leave the room when he noticed the small green alarm clock sitting on the dresser still. And to him, he said the glowing green clock resembled an eye that had been watching him while he murdered both women. So he grabbed it and stuffed it into his pocket as he left the room. Wow. Right?

I mean, that tells you something. He's not of same mind. Not here. I mean, this is absolutely fucking horrific. Absolutely. This is brutal. So, Bob was about to leave the apartment and go back to his boarding house when he remembered Frank Burns.

The boarder had been in the apartment the entire time,, like I said, never woke up because of his hearing. So when Burns had come in several hours earlier, Mary introduced Bob by name. So, Bob felt that if he left Frank alive, there was a good chance that he would be able to identify him. So he crept into Frank Burns' room, using the ice pick that he intended to use to kill Ethel, and stabbed

Burns in the head. But doesn't that point to not wanting to be caught and to making pretty logical moves to make sure that you are not identified? That's the thing. I think he, I mean, he's a diagnosed schizophrenic. Absolutely. But I mean, like in this moment, I'm like, cause you can be a diagnosed schizophrenic, commit a crime like this and they can still say you're guilty because you were sane in the moment in the action of committing the crime. Yeah.

He's sane. Well, just wait. That's sane behavior. You are not the only one that thinks that. Yeah, I fully believe that. So, and we'll get to it because you're not alone there. He said, I struck him the first time in the temple so far as it would go. The poor fellow lay there twitching but did not bleed.

I had to hit him 11 times. Holy shit. With all three occupants dead, Bob grabbed his coat and left the apartment a little after 6 a.m. He finished by telling his audience from the tribune, "'I'm certainly sorry I killed all three of them. There was only the one I was after, and that was Ethel. I don't know whether it was hate or love that made me want to kill her. If she had come in first, I probably would have killed her and nobody else.'"

Wow. Imagine being Ethel here. I can't imagine. There's so many layers to it of knowing that if you had walked in, you were the one that was getting this. But also then to know that three people died in place of you. And two of them being your sister and mother. Yeah, like, and by no fault of your own.

No, but the survivor's guilt. You would already have survivor's guilt anyway, no matter who it was that killed them. But then learning that you're the intended victim, that would ruin me. But before ending the interview, the reporter asked what Bob was expecting to happen to him now that he had confessed and would be apprehended.

And he answered, whatever's coming to me, I'll take. Wow. So it wasn't until after the evening edition of the Herald and Examiner hit the newsstands that investigators learned Bob had confessed to killing Rommie, Mary, and Frank. The front page article had scooped the competition and been the first to report the news. That's fucked up. So, the Chicago Tribune literally just obstructed the fuck out of Justice to get this interview.

Get that front page scoop. And they didn't even get it. It ended up getting scooped by the competition somehow. Wow. Just like word of mouth, I think. But detectives naturally thought it was them and not the Chicago Tribune who had done the interview. And it was only when they reached the offices of the Herald and Examiner that they learned Bob was still holed up at the Morrison Hotel with the staff from the Tribune. What the fuck? Yup.

This is so bizarre. So on June 28th, 1937, Bob was transported back to New York after voluntarily waving extradition and declaring his willingness to take responsibility for the Gideon murders. According to the New York Times, Bob was jaunty, giggling at times, and without the slightest trace of remorse, as he repeatedly confessed the murders to the New York detectives who'd been sent to retrieve him from Chicago. Once they arrived back in New York, Bob was taken to police headquarters and questioned until just before 3 a.m. A police spokesperson told reporters he stated that he had made

a statement to Lieutenant Owens and Detective Crimmins confessing to the murders in the plane and route from Chicago to New York and that that statement was true. Wow. According to investigators, he was fully cooperative from the moment that he was picked up in Chicago and actually even seemed eager to get back to New York and face his penalty.

One reporter wrote, he boasted to them that he was willing to plead guilty to the murders and that he was not afraid of death in the electric chair. Okay, buddy. He doesn't even plead guilty, so I'm like, what? This is all just shit. So Bob appeared before the court of general sessions on July 1st, where his lawyer, Samuel Leibowitz, entered a plea of not guilty. According to the New York Times, the courtroom was packed with, quote, an admiring of middle-aged women hoping to glimpse Irwin.

Get it together. Like what? Get it together. Just like in part one and every other fucking part we do of any case, people are gonna people. People are gonna people. Like what is that? Like come on man.

First of all, you want to catch a glimpse of a man who was intending to kill a woman that he was romantically obsessed with and because she wasn't there, he killed her mother's sister in a border at the house. Like here's the thing. That like gets you going. That's the problem. It's like I understand being curious and like being interested in the case and wanting to see who this guy is that did this. Absolutely, but they were like, but going to be like, oh my god. Like that's wow.

It's like the girls that showed up to see Ted Bundy and be like, please marry me. And literally parted their hair the same way they dyed their hair. Because that's what he liked. Or like Charlie Manson's girls. Yeah. It's such a fucking weird pathology. It's a strange. Yeah.

I don't care. People are weird. But after entering his plea, Bob was removed from the court and returned to a cell to await trial, which was tentatively scheduled for the fall. In a statement to the press, Leibowitz said, "...this is the most interesting case I have ever had, due to the social implications. You cannot tell me how many more Irwins are running around loose. I hope that society will, learning a lesson from the Irwin case, make a more logical,

insane approach to the problem dealing with the criminal insane." Which, like, for a defense attorney to say, like, yeah, like, he's wrong, but I think he's insane. And the way that he said it, like, hopefully society will figure their shit out. It's a very... This is a lesson for sure. For the time, I'm like, wow. Mildly progressive. Yeah, it's a pretty progressive view. That's the word I was looking for.

Now in early September, before Bob's trial was to begin, Samuel Lebowitz arranged a press conference in which he promised his client would be on hand to answer questions for the press. However, when Bob was brought to the interview room in the courthouse, he was, quote, wild-eyed, unshaved and unkempt and appeared to have no idea what was going on. Once he settled in the chair beside Lebowitz, Bob, unprompted, blurted out, for two weeks they had doctors staring and leering at me. Their eyes, they bothered me.

I couldn't stand it. They beat me from behind with a blackjack. Six men with blackjacks. I couldn't fight six men with blackjacks. Just talking nonsense. Which maybe is because he's in a state of whatever he deals with or maybe is pointed. Yeah.

I mean, it seems to me like he is obviously clinically there's something wrong. Yes. But I think the thing that they're going to have to prove here is that he was insane at the time of the murders. So Bob said little more to the reporters before being returned to his cell, but it was clear to the reporters that the entire press conference was part of the defense attorney's trial strategy. Whether it was genuine or not, it was strategic. Absolutely.

Because it's like they can use it no matter what. Exactly. They're just like, they can use it. Yeah. No matter what. Exactly. They're just like, OK, this happened. Great. Like throw him out in front of some cameras and show everybody that he's clearly not all with it right now. It's going to sway public opinion, no matter what.

Of course it is. And according to the New York Times, Mr. Leibowitz, who is apparently laying the groundwork for a defense based on a plea of insanity, told reporters he thought Irwin was a dual personality. Lebowitz himself told the reporters that he had seen his client just one day earlier and he seemed calm and collected, but then added, you saw how he acted today, like a raving maniac.

It's wild how they talked. It really is, you're like, yikes. After several months of delays, Bob finally went before the court of general sessions on March 24th, 1938. Because he had already confessed, the only issues being considered were, quote, the mental condition of the defendant Robert Irwin at the time of the commission of each of the alleged crimes, whether he is now capable of understanding the proceeding and making his defense on the trial of the indictments.

Yeah. So essentially exactly what happened with your trial with your last episode. But unlike a traditional trial, in this case, the jury was presented with testimony taken from 20 sessions of the lunacy commission. The lunacy commission? That was a legit thing.

I've never heard that. The lunacy commission. Wow. And transcripts from the 28 witness interviews as well as physical and documentary evidence. In support of his client's compromised mental state, Leibowitz presented testimony from Dr. Leland Hinze, Assistant Director of the New York Psychiatric Institute, and Dr. Bernard Gluck, I think it is, the former director of the psychiatric clinic at Sing

Sing, both of whom had actually evaluated Bob. In total, both men spent nearly 70 hours interviewing Bob. So this was a dedicated process. And during that time, Hintze said Bob's behavior would sometimes become frightening and erratic. He said he would begin by excessive talking and would be considerably upset when he was interrupted for some explanations on some point he had raised. According to Hintzee, these interruptions often prompted Bob to quote,

"'Stare at the examiner, grit his teeth, "'pound on the table viciously with his fist, "'and yell that he would not suffer any interruptions.'" That would be terrifying. Even just writing it and like picturing it was a terrifying experience. I can't imagine being there. Stare at the examiner and grit his teeth and yell and like pound his fit.

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and contracting, control the passage of food through my body. All of this done by electricity." False. Incorrect. Wow. But, arguing that Bob was sane when he committed the murders and knew what he was doing was both morally wrong and illegal, was the district attorney William Dondi. And me. Or Doe, excuse me, and Elena. And he pointed to several instances in which Irwin appeared to be concealing information. Badaboo. Upon his arrest, for example, Bob was reluctant to disclose information about the crimes,

which implied a certain level of awareness of what he had done. And similarly, when he was asked about the fee that he received for his confession, Bob explained that he planned to use a small portion for himself, saying, "...if I find myself in an institution for life or something like that, I would like to get a small amount of money so that I can hire someone of my fellow patients or prisoners, whatever you want to call them. In such an institution for $1 a week, you can get people to do many things for you.

I mean, that is some high level planning. And planning, yes. Like, damn. Right? Yeah. This is such an interesting case because it's very clear that this man is insane. Like, you cannot argue that. He's very ill.

He is a very ill man. I mean, his actions before this and, you know, what he did, the self-harm that he did to himself and all that stuff is, there is something wrong there. But I see what you're saying and I see what the DA is saying here with, by criminal definition, not so much. He, like you, when you pointed it out that he killed Frank Burns because he knew somebody could identify him. Yeah.

He was like, he's been introduced to me by name and he saw my face. And even, even Ronnie, Ronnie turned around and saw his face after she didn't get knocked out with the quote unquote blackjack made out of soap. And so he, and he was like, I had to kill her. Like that's, that's criminal thinking. That's sane thinking. That's ordered thinking. And it's like, that's, I'm like criminal definition. You can have, you can be extraordinarily mentally ill, but if you're a moment of lucidity is when you murder someone with your fucking bare hands and you know it's wrong, to jail you go. Like you're guilty. That's the way

it is. Like you can't get off of that. If you were lucid while you did it and you know what you did and you still did it and then you made steps to cover it up and to make sure you didn't get identified, there's really no arguing that. But then there's the whole issue of, can you be institutionalized or can you be sent to prison when really you should be institutionalized? He should absolutely be institutionalized. Exactly.

Yeah. I think you should still, and I think that's where the problem lies because a lot of times figuring out whether somebody's quote unquote insane or not, criminally insane, is to sentence them. Yeah. And usually it's like, if you're not insane,

then straight to prison you go. Yeah. But in this case, this man, this man is not going to, like prison's not going to do anything for him. No. And not that prison is like necessarily meant to do anything for anybody, but it kind of is, like it's kind of set there for rehabilitation. It's supposed to be.

Whereas somebody like this is not necessarily going to be able to be rehabilitated. But you also look at an institution and especially at this time might be worse. Oh, it might be. Absolutely. It might be even worse. It's like, I don't think he's going to come out of there, you know, ready to take on the world either.

No, but then you think of the danger in which you're putting the other prisoners. So it's like it's there's this whole gray area, I feel like, where... It's... Like, I feel like the definition of criminal insanity is so... hard. Yeah, it's hard. There's a lot of... Because there's so many different variables. Gray areas. And gray areas.

But this one, I'm like, he was sane when he committed those murders. And that's the thing, I think I agree with that. I think he was when he committed the murders, but then I feel like it's a whole different story of, okay, well, like, what the fuck do we do with him now? You know? So, Dodge argued that this was evidence that Irwin had already contemplated his options upon arrest, and that, quote, Irwin contemplated the possibility of a trial,

which would terminate by committing him to an institution for the insane. According to the prosecution, the facts of Irwin's voluntary surrender in Chicago and the shrewd bargain struck with the Chicago Herald examiner, which Irwin initiated and accomplished by himself, indicates a mentality of keenness and comprehension, which yeah, it does.

Yeah, and I also am like, I mean, I don't put a whole lot of stock in diagnoses that happened in the 30s. So it's like, I don't even know if he's schizophrenic. I don't know what his diagnosis would be now. I don't know what it would be now. And that's the thing, I don't know. I mean, again, I'm not going to armchair diagnose him

because I don't know enough about him and his life and what he's done. I just know that there's moments where he is showing criminal cunning. Definitely. And that's not, you know, like that's not, I don't know. It's just, there's a lot. It's a tough one. There's a lot of gray area within this case.

He is completely right when he says that. That deal that he struck with the newspaper. It's cunning for sure. That's a cunning deal. And it was for his benefit. But it also shows a lack of, I don't even know, an over-inflated sense of self almost that like, or an ego of some kind, like a hubris here that he thought he could do that. And then it's like, and then what did you think would happen? Like even he could barely answer that.

Yeah. I don't think he, I don't think he went from A to C. I think he went from A to B with that plan. So there's that part of it. That's like, that's a disjointed thought. That's the thing. So there is a lot of different details that are confusing. And I don't know a lot about schizophrenia, but what I do know is that there are periods of clarity and then there are periods of, you know, like struggle. Which that happens with a lot of diagnoses.

A lot of mental illnesses and diagnoses, yeah. So after weighing the evidence, the jury determined that Robert Bob Irwin was in fact sane at the time of the murders. Wow. Because of that, his case went to criminal trial on November 7th, 1938, where Samuel Leibowitz did everything in his power to stall the trial on November 7, 1938, where Samuel Leibowitz did everything in his power to stall the trial, objecting to jurors and repeatedly filing motions to postpone the trial.

Which honestly, that's a tough case. I feel like he would need all the time in the world to prepare for that. But then, on November 15, the press reported the surprising news that Bob had accepted a plea deal from the prosecution, where he would plead guilty to second-degree murder on all three charges, and they would remove the death penalty. The district attorney told the press, because of Irwin's previous record of insanity, there was a possibility that the jury might have found, might have held him legally insane, in which case he might finally have been released from confinement. And see, that's where my issue comes with the whole like, if he's found insane during that,

you know, quote unquote, then they'll put him somewhere and then they'll release him. Mm hmm. And it's like, that's no, like a lot of times that's not going to work. A lot of times that's where we have another string of horrible crimes that people pay the ultimate price for because this person was let out and deemed to not be sane during this whole thing. And it's like, he would do it again.

And I think that's where it's like a problem with the justice system and a problem within like hospital, like hospitalization and that kind of thing. Like there, I feel like the whole system then and even now is just, it needs to be revisited. Well, and it makes the jury's job even worse because they're sitting here having to say, okay, if we find this person not legally sane during this and he gets committed to an institution, is he going to be walking out of there in a year? Exactly.

You know, like less than that sometimes. Because you would have to think of that. Yeah. So yeah, it's tough. Yeah. So instead, the prosecution intended to recommend a sentence of 90 years to life on each count to be served consecutively. Okay.

On November 28th, Bob appeared before Judge James Wallace, who I'm almost 99% sure we have covered before, like he's been in cases that we've covered. It just sounds very familiar. That was in the court of General Sessions and he was sentenced to 139 years in prison. 99 years for the murder of Burns and 20 years for each of the murders of Mary and Veronica Gideon. When asked if he had anything to say on his own behalf, Bob said, ordinarily this business of asking a prisoner if he has anything to say is a mere formality. The man is generally guilty of willful aggression

against society, or he is too ignorant to speak for himself. I'm not guilty of any willful aggression against society. And then he wasn't done yet. But Judge Wallace interrupted and said, this is no time for a long speech or extended remarks.'" But Bob ignored the judge and continued, "'This is a farce. I have a definite and real reason why sentence should not be pronounced. You say you represent justice, I say you do not. You represent a rich man's justice.'"

No, I think you just killed three people pretty brutally and then made great effort to hide it. Great effort. So I think that's the problem, Bob. Yep. So after managing to get Bob under control, Judge Wallace reread the charges and the sentence and then turned to the district attorney to make it clear that he had accepted the guilty pleas on the recommendation of the district attorney's office, but he had done so with reservations. The judge, he said, there's no question the

defendant is mentally unsound. In my opinion, the state has lost nothing in accepting these pleas except possibly the execution of this defendant. And that would bring no credit to the state. Yeah. So he's like, I don't really know if what we're doing here is great. Yeah. But he was like, but I guess we're not executing him. That's good for us. But it turned out that Judge Wallace was not the only one who questioned whether sending Irwin to prison was the right decision or not.

A little more than a week into his sentence at Sing Sing, Bob was transferred to Dannemora State Hospital for the criminally insane. After two Sing Sing psychiatrists evaluated him and deemed him very definitely insane. While at Danimora, he studied foreign languages and eventually taught himself French, German, Latin, Polish, Italian, and quote, also invented an international language of his own. Wow. Yeah. Damn. and quote, also invented an international language of his own. Wow. Yeah. Damn.

When he wasn't spending time on his education, he wrote letters to his former psychiatrist, Frederick Wortham, and even began a long distance correspondence with a woman in Cuba. Wow. However, within a year, his anger got the better of him and he became one of the more unruly patients

at the hospital who most often required solitary confinement. He's aggressive, he is aggressive and dangerous. In 1975, he died at the Mateo when I think it is State Hospital for the criminally insane after an eight year battle with cancer. And he was 67 years old when he died. Wow. The fact that he lived until 1975, it's like so strange to wrap your brain around that time frame. That's a wild one. And it's just so, his life was sad when he was a child, so you feel bad for the child. You feel so bad for Ethel Gideon for having to live the rest of her life knowing that she was the intended victim

and that her mother and sister and an innocent border at the house. That they just became collateral damage. Exactly. And this whole thing. And then for the victims, it's like Frank is just sleeping in his bed. Just a border in that house.

Just wrong place, wrong time entirely. The mom was always good to him. Yeah, that's the thing. Ronnie was always good to him. They did nothing. The mom was always good to him. Ronnie was always good to him. The whole family was good to this man. They did nothing to deserve that except he just couldn't have Ethel and he couldn't handle it. He just became obsessed. Like, yeah, scary, scary, scary, obsessed.

Wow. But it's such a wild case and it was handled so wild on so many different levels by the press. First with publishing fake details about the murders when nobody even knew anything yet. It's such a wild case and it was handled so wild on so many different levels by the press first with Publishing fake details about the murders when nobody even knew anything yet. Yeah, that's gnarly Exploiting ronnie and like all the photographers that had worked with her but then like true detective Be like they came out look at smelling like roses here. Yeah, like the one that you say like oh man those detective magazines They're the ones who come out and are like, we actually give a shit about her. Like, that's crazy. And then the fucking Chicago Tribune.

That I could not even get over. Yeah, way back. I was like, oh my god. You guys wouldn't do that now, right? You would never do that now. You would never do that now. They couldn't do that. No, they could not.

There's no fucking way. Of course not. I'm like, how did this, how was this allowed? It's wily behavior. Insane. So yeah. Yeah. Wow. I'm like, how did this, how was this allowed? That's wily behavior. Insane. So yeah. Yeah.

Wow. That is, that is part two for you and that wraps it up. Damn. What a story. And the Easter Sunday murders. Wow. So thanks for that. You're welcome.

Um, with that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't turn into what I'm pretty sure next is a listener tale. With that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't turn into what I'm pretty sure next is a listener tale. Yeah. Party. So I I have the breath of a woman who just ate a salad. And she's salad. That's going to the end of that. That's the end. Cause I had a little salad with a little garlic.

Little gourlic. Gourlic and vinegar. Some gourlic in here. Make her stinky ass breath breath. Hell yeah. Okay. Let's do this. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus

in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. SkaMers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagge. And we're the host of SkaMfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away. We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to

push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.