Morbid - Episode 582: The Murder of Julia Martha Thomas

Episode Date: July 15, 2024

In early March 1879, fifty-five-year-old widow Julia Martha Thomas disappeared from her home in southwest London. Julia often travelled by herself on moment’s notice, so neighbors thought nothing of her absence; however, when several female body parts were discovered in the Thames, police uncovered a gruesome crime that not only involved theft and impersonation, but also the ghastly murder of Julia Martha Thomas.Thomas’s maid, Kate Webster, was quickly arrested and charged with Julia’s murder. Through their investigation, detectives discovered that Thomas had recently given Webster notice of termination after only one month. Days before she was to leave Thomas’ home, Webster murdered her employer, then dismembered her body and posed as Julia in order to sell off the murdered woman’s belongings for a quick profit. Although she maintained her innocence, Kate Webster was tried, convicted, and executed for the crime, finally confessing her guilt just hours before she went to the gallows.The ”Richmond Murder,” as it was dubbed by the press, captivated Londoners for months and Webster’s trial and execution became something of a public spectacle. In Victorian-era England, few people believed a woman capable of committing murder, much less dismemberment and rendering of a human body. Given that, and the shocking viciousness of the crime itself, the Richmond Murder remains one of London’s most notorious murders of the late nineteenth century.Thank you to the incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research!ReferencesBirmingham Evening Mail. 1879. "Solution of the Barnes mystery." Birmingham Evenign Mail, March 26: 3.Blake, Matt. 2011. Attenborough skull mystery finally solved. July 6. Accessed June 23, 2024. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/attenborough-skull-mystery-finally-solved-2307530.html.Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper. 1879. "The Barnes mystery." Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, March 16: 5.O'Donnell, Elliot. 2010. The Trial of Kate Webster. New York, NY: Gale, Making of Modern Law.Portsmouth Evening News. 1879. "The Richmond murder." Portsmouth Evening News, July 9: 3.Shaver Hughes, Sarah, and Brady Hughes. 1997. Women in World History: Readings fom 1500 to the Present. London, UK: Routledge.The Citizen. 1879. "The Barnes Mystery." The Citizen, March 13: 3.The Journal. 1879. "The Barnes mystery." The Journal, March 14: 3.The Times. 1879. "TRhe murder and mutilation at Richmond." Reynold's Newspaper, April 6: 6.—. 1879. "The murder at Richmond." The Times, April 1: 5.—. 1879. "The supposed tragedy at Richmond." The Times, April 3: 2.Wood, Walter. 1916. Survivors' Tales of Famous Crimes. London, UK: Cassell.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities and new ways of thinking. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception, along with popular podcasts and exclusive audible originals all in one easy app. Enjoy audible anytime while doing other things, household chores, exercising,

on the road, commuting, you name it. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free 30-day audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. What's the answer? And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head? Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, weirdos.

I'm Alaina. I am Ash. And this is Morpheus. I'm just a fuckboy in these intros these days. Just a little fuckboy. Your little tiny fuckboy. Oh, boy. Oh, brother. What's going on? What's going on?

I had a calzone with Milky Way in it for lunch. We had dessert. For lunch dessert. It was delightful. Yeah, it was. You know what? It was delightful. And what was also delightful is that although we've been having some weird vibes, we've

talked to you guys about it a little bit. Yeah. Like the doppelganger situation, the TV falling on my head, slow motion falling on us. Yeah, just my Stu Mocker moment. Your Stu Mocker moment. Just like my casual brain damage. It's felt a little off and we've all felt it and we've all just kind of been like, oh, like what is this? I don't like it. And so we were like, I'm gonna clean this morning. I'm gonna vacuum. I'm gonna like make sure everything's decluttered.

Maybe that's part of it. But then Mikey was like, wait a second, our gal, Rachel Stavis, who is like this amazing out of this world's exorcist. We had her on, you remember. She's amazing. Go listen to that episode if you haven't, because she's delightful. She heard that we were like having some weird energy and weird vibes and we kind of talked

to her about it a little bit. And she sent us a lovely little care package of items that will help us kind of like cleanse the space and like make the energy a little better. So Mikey lit some incense and just was like, you know what? Let's get Rachel vibes in here. Yeah. I'm not kidding you. Something happened. No, it's so true. The energy in this room is different. And I'm usually pretty skeptical about some of this stuff. Like I'll end up being like, Oh, I don't know. Like maybe it's just like, I'm usually pretty skeptical about some of this stuff. Like I'll end up being like, I don't know. Like maybe it's just like. I'll say no.

I'm not kidding you. It feels like a totally different room. Cause I was not here this morning when you guys did that. And then when I walked in, I was like, wait a second. You're like, what's different? It feels light as fuck in here. Yeah, like Mikey was like, it feels like, it feels still. Yeah, it does feel still.

Whereas before it felt very racing. It felt staticky. Yeah. Like everything was like, it felt like snow on a TV screen. Like that. It was like irritating all the time. And I felt like it was like something just didn't feel right. So we just need to say like Rachel Stavis, man. I'm telling you, she knows her shit. She's so fucking cool. Follow her on TikTok. Yeah. Follow her and all the things. But she's magical and she did something. So thanks, Rachel. Thank you, Rachel.

You're a fucking pal. Thanks a lot, Rachel. I'm telling mom. I'll tell everybody. I'll tell fucking everybody. I'm telling everybody. So speaking of, you know, British accents, kind of. I think it's Scottish.

That was Scottish. But we're going to be talking about Scotland Yard here, so that works. Telling everybody. So speaking of, you know, British accents, kind of. I think it's Scottish. That was Scottish. But we're going to be talking about Scotland Yard here, so that works. So we got an old timey murder. Let's fucking go. This is one I had heard about before, and some people may have heard about.

It is the murder of Julia Martha Thomas. It's a wild one though, and it's one we have not covered somehow. Which is shocking. I'm shocked. Is it like an 1800s-y vibe? It is an 1800s-y vibe. Oh, wow. So this was dubbed later in the press, the Richmond murder. It captivated Londoners for months, and the killer, Kate Webster's trial and execution eventually became something of a public spectacle. And is it Kate?

Yes, Kate. A woman? A woman. And in Victoria era England, very few people even believed that a woman was capable of murder. I believe that. But one as vicious as this one and one that also involved a lot of abuse of a corpse,

I will say, afterwards. They definitely didn't believe a woman could do that. Okay. Yeah. So given that and the absolute viciousness of the entire thing, the Richmond murder remains one of London's most notorious murders of the late 19th century. Yeah, I'm trying to think of like the title itself, like the Richmond murder, like makes me feel like I know it. But you're talking about like a couple of details and I'm not

it's not hitting you. No, maybe it will. Maybe halfway through I'll scream if it does. So let's talk about the victim first. Okay, Julia Martha Thomas. So as is the case with a lot of these like Victorian era cases, we don't have a ton of information about Julia's life, you know, before she became a victim of this crime. The 1800s of it all. Exactly. But Julia Martha Thomas was born in England circa 1823. According to Elliot O'Donnell, who we will link the source in the show notes, she was well known by neighbors to be distinctly eccentric.

I like that. Which is fun. That is fun. Who doesn't want to be known as distinctly eccentric? Yeah. I really love that. In a world full of people who are not, be distinctly eccentric.

Be distinctly eccentric. Especially back then too, to be known as that, like hell yeah. That's how you know you're doing it right. I feel like we need merch that says especially back then. Especially back then. I feel like we say that a lot. We do. Just especially back then.

O'Donnell wrote that she was possessed of a remarkably excitable temperament, frequently getting vexed and put out for no apparent cause. And she's still remembered as very much a tartar to her servants. A tartar? That doesn't sound good. It's not.

So in England, tartar actually means someone who is domineering, bossy, irritable, you know? It's not sauce. Not great, it's not a compliment. So again, she was known people liked her who knew her It was just the people who worked for her that were like not a great employer. Okay, she was twice widowed Oh, that's um, and since the passing of her second husband in 1873 Julia lived in a small house

Adjacent to a pub in Richmond, which was a middle-class neighborhood in Southwest London. And she had spent most of her adult life as a school teacher, actually. Despite a reputation for high expectations and a pretty quirky character, again, she was super well liked by others. She was never lonely after being widowed, particularly with the pub patrons next door. People liked her. And also without a husband or when she retired, didn't have a job to attend to,

she began kind of indulging her interest in traveling and just going different places. Hell yeah. Yeah, like she never liked to stay in one place too long. She loved to see other places. She went by herself. Good for her. Yeah, she loved it. And it was later said that her friends and relatives

would sometimes remain for weeks and even months in complete ignorance of her whereabouts. So she just wouldn't tell anyone either. She would just, off she would go. That's not great. Doesn't help later. Don't do that. Doesn't help.

Kind of plays into Kate's favor a little bit later. But at the time she's just like, I'm taking off for a little while. I have no one to be responsible to. I'm not tied down. That does sound kind of fun. Imagine just disappearing and like nobody knows where you are, but like you're just on vacay.

Yeah, you're just on vacay. Like it's okay, you're on vacay. It's fine. And Julie's like, hell yeah. I like that. Now outside of all this and her eccentricities, Julia was remembered by most for her commitment to appearances.

Oh honey. With quote, fondness for dress and jewelry. Oh, honey. She made the most of her modest means and was often seen wearing gold jewelry and rings as well as fine clothes. Okay, sister. Yeah, this was not because she was wealthy.

She really wasn't wealthy. She wasn't like, you know, the poorest of the poor. She wasn't the wealthiest of the wealthy. She was like solid middle class at that time. But she spent her money on good quality shit. She did. And O'Donnell actually refers to it in the book as an obvious anxiety to be thought genteel. Well, you know, no, I'm just kidding.

Oh, you know, again, she was solidly middle class, but it was very important to her that she be perceived as highly respectable despite her reliance on the income of like taking lodgers in her house, that kind of thing. She went out of her way to give the impression that she had wealth, she had class. Dress for the job you want, not the job you have. Exactly. She just liked, I don't have to be rich to look rich is what she was saying. I don't have to spend all that money to look rich. I look rich.

Through go franny. And it's like, good job, Julia. Exactly. So although she was generally thought of positively by her neighbors, like we said, and her friends and people who knew her at the pub and all that, she didn't go to the pub. They just knew her from like outside. Because she lived right there. and her friends and people who knew her at the pub and all that. She didn't go to the pub. They just knew her from like outside. Julia's reputation as a demanding employer with high standards made it a little difficult for her to find long-term domestic workers.

Actually records indicate that she hired a lot of servants over the years. Only one maid was known to have stayed employed by her for any real length of time. Damn. The rest of them just gone. They just couldn't hack it. Yeah. Because of this gnarly track record in January 1879, Julia found herself yet again looking for a new maid. And this is when her friend Lucy Loader mentioned, hey, I actually just recently came in contact

with this young Irish woman named Kate Webster. Not Kate. And Kate Webster had done a few days labor for Lucy, her friend there, and was looking for long-term employment in the area. So she was like, this seems perfect. She was great for what I needed her for. Yeah. 10 on 10 recommend.

There you go. Which like, oops, you should not have. Zero out of 10 looking back. This is one of those things where you like, you like vouch for somebody and then you're like, fuck. We have all been there. So Kate Webster was born actually Catherine Lawler, which should give you a little idea of like, huh, we have an alias.

Yeah, we don't love that. What's going on there? What a fun last name, Lawler. Lawler. That'd be good at the group chat. She was born circa 1849 in Killan, County Wexford, Northern Ireland. From the moment of her arrest later in life, the authorities found it very difficult to verify a lot about what Webster told them of her backstory and personal history. Mysterious squirrely.

She was a liar. A liar. Who lied? Mysterious squirrely. She was a liar. A liar. Who lied? Mysterious, squirrely. She was a liar. A liar. According to Kate, she grew up in a Roman Catholic farming family and claimed to have married a sea captain by the name of Webster. Doubt it. While still in her teens. And she said the couple had four kids. Where are they? Where they are, the world may never know. Well, it's so easy to say that you married a sea captain because he ain't never going to be around.

He's gone. He's at sea. He's a sea captain. Where's your husband, the sea captain? At sea. On a boat, bitch. He's in the sea. He's not a land captain, okay?

Idiot. So, well, sure, could be true. Maybe she married a sea captain named Captain Webster. Who's to say? And had four kids. Captain George Glass. But O'Donnell and many historians suggested it was much more likely that she assumed the name Webster to evade the police, in that it was just one of her numerous aliases that

she would have during her life. She didn't have many of those. So Webster's criminal career appears to have started while she was in her teens, actually, when she claims to have been married to the sea captain named Webster. She was arrested for larceny and served a short prison sentence in her teens. Upon her release, she left Ireland and traveled to Liverpool where she just continued a life of crime, particularly robbing lodging houses, which she became really good at. It was actually something like if she had a LinkedIn today, she would be like, I'm actually

skills robbing lodging houses. 1815 to present. Yeah. Killing it. Like she really knew how to rob a lodging house. Wow. And if she had just, that's terrible, but you wish she had just continued in that career path.

She was going to stay in a life of crime. Right. So what she does do is pretty fucking awful. It sounds like it. But as a woman, especially at that time, Kate was far less likely to be suspected or accused of crimes like that. And her remarkable confidence and her practice ability to lie like a rug made her really good at being a thief.

Like she was the best thief. In most cases, Kate would just present herself at a boarding house and she would say, hi, I'm interested in a room. And they'd be like, absolutely, let me give you a tour. She would be given a tour of the building. And then as soon as the landlord turned their back, she would steal whatever she could. Fantastico.

Just shove it in all her petticoats and that would be it. She'd just leave. Great. Yeah. She got her tour and she'd just say, Oh, you know what? Actually, I don't want to take this room. And then she'd just leave with all the shit. And then they'd have no record of her ever being there. Exactly. Because she's just taking the tour. Diabolical. In the event that she couldn't steal anything during the tour, like if the landlord was like, yeah, keep an eye

on her. Like I'm not turning my back on you. This isn't a visual podcast, but Alina just like looked up. I stared at you. Yeah. Like, like put her face down and looked up with her eyes. It was very intense. That's what the landlord would do. Uh, but if she couldn't do that, she would accept the room for like a day or two and just rob everything in the house. And she would rob the other lodgers and then just flee the house with all the shit. I need to know more about Kate's childhood. Yeah, Kate's a lot. Kate is a lot. And the scheme worked well for a while, but eventually Kate was arrested again for larceny in 1867 and ended up being sentenced to four years in

prison. That's a long time in prison, especially in 1800s prison. With the Summer Olympics in full swing, hydration is key for athletes and fans. I needed a liquid IV after I watched Simone Biles do her floor trial because she was just flippin' and floppin' all over the place. Liquid IV is extraordinary hydration for physical endurance, mental clarity,

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at liquidiv.com. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and new ways of thinking. Find the genres you love and discover new ones along the way. Explore bestsellers, new releases, plus thousands

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the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500-500. That's audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500-500 to try Audible free for 30 days. Audible.com slash morbid. So while she was sentenced to four years in prison, it looks like she might've only served a little more than three overcrowding. Yeah, you know, and then when she made her way up to London in early 1871, shit didn't

really change because years later after she was arrested for the crime she will be arrested for, Kate claimed that upon arriving in London, she had every intention of leaving her criminal ways behind her and making an honest living. Bet, as the kids would say. Indeed. Bet. Indeed.

But she even took up the first of several jobs as a domestic worker to just get on that straight and narrow. Wow, Kate. She had hope. But it was during this period of her life that Kate would later claim that things started to go wrong again. It's crazy how like the world just works against you like that. Yeah, she's like, it wasn't me.

Wasn't me robbing people. Everything just went wrong. According to Kate, she was working for a family in Notting Hill. And while she was there, right? She met a man who convinced her in the apparently romance, this man convinced her to leave her employers and come work for him. Oh, and she claimed I was induced by him to go live with him at his house and he seduced me while there. And I became in the family way with my little boy. Where's he? Well, he's around. Don't worry about that. But Kate's version

of events paints her entirely as a victim of seduction who after becoming pregnant was just thrown out of the house by the boy's father. Oh, poor Kate. Here's the thing that could have absolutely happened. Yeah, probably. 100%. There's no reason to believe that that couldn't happen. But it's just that her history as a consummate liar and criminal makes a lot of historians wonder whether it might've been a little more complicated than that perhaps. Yeah, because Kate do be lying. She do be. But whatever the case, Kate did give birth to a baby boy on April 19th, 1874.

So she was telling the truth about that. Okay, that's good. And she ended up finding lodging in Kingston, where she was once again passing herself off as that wife of that sea captain. I don't know if he exists. Our elusive sea captain. And she was getting by on whatever food and small amounts of money were offered to her by neighbors. All right.

Yeah. So at the same time, Kate was known to have been repeatedly visited by a man with the last name of strong. Ooh, he's strong. And he was among other things rumored to have been the boy's father. I thought you were going to say strong. He was rumored to be strong. He was also thought to be possibly Kate's one-time partner in crime. So later in her statement to the police, she claimed her return to crime was just purely out of necessity. Like she didn't want to. She alleged, quote, I became very impoverished, forsaken by him and committed crimes for the purpose of supporting myself and my child. Which is sad if that's the case. Absolutely. And you can kind of see like, yeah, I could see how that would be the case.

It was, but I don't know. Oh, okay. Maybe I'm sure it was part of the case. Yeah. But you think she also enjoys this. She was also just a criminal. Sometimes criminals go criminal. They are. So by this time, the authorities had definitely become aware of what they termed Kate's first longterm swindle. Oh. But unfortunately, they also found out about her, all of her aliases, which were among others, Webb, Webster, Gibbs, Gibbons, and Lawler. Damn, she's got a few. And the details of this long con, we could not find.

Dave searched high and low. We can't find the details because obviously she wasn't running around telling everybody. And it was wicked long ago. It was wicked. I thought you were going to say it was a wicked long con. I mean, it was a long con. It was wicked long ago.

Who's to say it wasn't wicked? It's true. But also, so the criminal activity did result in whatever she was doing to prepare for this long con or starting this long con. It did result in a third arrest on 36 counts of robbery. So a few. So a wicked long con, Ken. Yeah.

And in May 1875, she was sentenced to 18 months in prison. Wow. For that wicked long con, that's not a wicked long sentence. Exactly. Now, Kate was released after serving her full sentence of 18 months, but unfortunately it was a short-lived freedom for her because after just a few months, she was again arrested for robbery and sentenced to 12 months in prison this time. Oh goody. This time when she was released, she went to live with her son's father, who she was then

referring to as Mr. Mitchell. So everyone's got aliases. This was a man who lived in Teddington. So I don't know who Mr. Strong was, but he wasn't the boy's father. Or not how she now this guy is. But in the year that followed, Kate managed to keep her criminal activities at least to a minimum. Kate. But this was in part because she started a romantic relationship with another local man.

Oh. And it was through this new relationship that this is when Kate met Lucy Loader, who at the time employed the mother of Kate's then boyfriend, the local man. Okay. So many key players. Exactly. Now, when Julia complained that she was unable to find and keep good live and help, Lucy said Kate was Lucy Loader who said Kate Webster. And she said she had actually

come to her attention, Lucy's attention through her own maid, Mrs. Crease. Okay. It was all very Colonel Mustard, Miss Scarlett, Professor Plum up in here. Yeah, but she's getting people to give her like a good reference. Yeah, exactly. Apparently she does good work. So there's that. But Kate started her employment with Julia as a quote unquote general domestic worker

in late January 1879. Until the day she died, Kate said that she had taken the job with Julia as a genuine attempt to make an honest living. She said she had no other motivations. Yeah, but you know, she do be lying, like we said. She do be lying. One thing about Kate is she stays lying. She does stay lying forever and always.

She is pathological at this point. But O'Donnell claims that from the very first, Kate seems to have inspired Mrs. Thomas with fear. Now, although he doesn't offer any examples of this, O'Donnell does heavily imply that Kate's appearance was a little brutish. Came off real brutish. Okay. I mean, she's lived a thousand lives. She has. She very much has. And the way they describe it in the book is her wild Celtic blood and the memory of her free life in Wexford made

her no doubt very restless and bitterly resentful. I mean, you know us Celtic women. You know the wild Celtic blood. Also, didn't they say that Julia was pretty easily frightened? Didn't they say she was easily excitable? She was. She was easily excitable. So she was very like, which I think they mean more so because it was more like a compliment when they say that. I think it was more like you could make her excited very easily.

You could amp her up about stuff. I thought it was more like, oh, she's easily excitable. She's easily sent off the edge, which I think that could also be true because she was so tough with her employees. But all descriptions of Kate, physical descriptions, they were given after her arrest. So they're obviously biased by a pretty fucking terrible crime that she committed. But Julia's doctor described Kate as quote, an uncommonly tall, powerful and ill favored woman looking as if she belonged to the tramp class. Oh, that's dark.

And I was like, well, damn. I mean, Kate's a piece of shit. So it's like whatever, but like, damn. Yeah, that's gotta hurt. It's pretty rough. I wouldn't want to read that about myself. But it is speculated that Julia had taken on Kate with the hope of helping to reform her.

Like she had heard that she had had some troubles. When she's a teacher too, so. She's a school teacher and apparently Julia had done that for others in the past. Oh, that's nice. She had taken on some people that were having like a little bit of a dark past, not crazy dark, but like some troubles.

Not Kate dark. Not Kate dark, but some troubles. And she thought, you know what? I'll give them something to do. I'll give them a little money and hopefully it'll set them on the straight and narrow. So Julia was just like a good lady. She sounds like it.

And in fact, during the first week or so of the arrangement, Kate did her best to impress Julia. And Julia did the same. They were both being very kind to each other. And actually Julia in that first week lowered her unreasonable expectations a little bit and kind of let things slide just to kind of ease Kate into the work. But unfortunately it didn't take long for Kate's true character to reveal itself. And she soon became very lazy, very disrespectful,

very aggressive and defiant. Which is who she was. Gave you a chance. Yeah, and she's changing her ways of doing things for you. So Kate later told investigators, at first I thought her a nice old lady and I hope that I might be comfortable and happy with her,

but I found her very trying and she used to do many things to annoy me during my work. It's like, is she annoying you actively? Like trying to, or you just easily annoy because you're an asshole. And you're just lazy, yeah. But according to Kate, Julia would often check her work after she'd finished cleaning and would point out spots

that had not been cleaned correctly. Well, bitch, it's my house and that's your job. I'm like, that is the job, man, I don't know. But Kate said, this sort of conduct towards me by Mrs. Thomas made me feel an ill feeling towards her. I watched, you know. Which also I'm like, why don't we speak like this anymore? Like, and this now would be like,

that bitch made me really fucking angry. But like back then it's like, this made me have an ill feeling towards her. It just feels so much more like, muah muah, muah muah. But Kate had also begun spending much of her time at a nearby pub. Cause remember she lives right adjacent to the pub.

It's called the hole in the wall. Which Julia strongly disapproved of. I'm sure she did. Especially when it's affecting Kate's work seemingly. Because Kate would come back drunk and also spend a lot of her time there. She would show up late. She wouldn't show up to things at all. So fuck that.

So Kate had made several attempts to straighten out her life in the past, at least like half-hearted attempts. So there's no reason to doubt that she had at least had partially intended to maybe do an honest day's work here. Perhaps. But I don't think that was ever the full intention here. But it's definitely worth considering the fact that Kate definitely saw in Julia Thomas that although she wasn't a wealthy woman, her commitment to the appearance of wealth

and status would have been a tempting thing for Kate. And she has the jewelry. She has things worth stealing in Kate's eyes. Kate's a lifelong skilled thief. That's what she is. But if she had been planning to steal anything from Julia, it turned out that she wasn't given much of a chance to do so in the beginning. So at just one month after hiring Kate and bringing her into her

home, Julia actually gave her a notice of dismissal. So she didn't get a lot of time to steal anything because she was all over her. It was really only a month. And then Julia was like, you kind of suck at this. So got to go. Got to go. Now, whether or not Julia had actually truly feared Kate, which was what everybody believes, um, that's just like speculation. But it kind of makes sense with how quick she let her go. Yeah. But there is reason to believe that she did have some fear of her after she gave her a

dismissal. Because who knows how Kate reacted to the dismissal. And she could already see that she was very aggressive and very defiant. Rather than have Kate leave immediately upon giving notice, which you could have done, Julia actually allowed her to stay for a few more days so she can make arrangements for future accommodations. Which that was pretty big a Julia. According to several members of Julia's church, after she gave Kate the notice of dismissal, she asked several people in the congregation whether they would be willing to stay with her at

her home because she was scared. Oh, I know. Donald writes that the way she put it, she was scared of the dark morose, savage eyed Kate. Fuck. Yeah. And she was scared that she would exact some kind of revenge. Like she, so for her to think that she said some shit.

Yeah. She said some shit. Now, she said some shit. Now eventually a young woman and her daughter actually agreed to stay with her and that kind of eased her anxiety a little bit. That's good. And during this period, it seems that Kate didn't act out in this while they were there, at least not so much that Julia feared her anymore. And the presence of these other people in the house kind of like emboldened Julia

to continue to criticize Kate. So that didn't help. It's like you already dismissed her. But then she also had a little bit of a reason to do it because she had given Kate until February 28th to be out of the house, which was on the other lodgers were planning to leave as well. They were only staying as long as she was there So that would have been fine. Like there's other people in the house. You're gonna leave they're gonna leave on the same day Everything will be fine. Yeah, but when the deadline started approaching Kate had not found housing She had not found other work and she appealed to Julia. Can I stay a few days longer?

Oh, this would have left Kate and Julia in the house alone together for a number of days. She didn't want to appear cruel though or uncharitable. So Julia said, sure. So that Sunday, February 28th, Kate had gotten this one, she was supposed to be out of the house. Kate had gone out to town in the morning, but agreed to be back in the afternoon so that Julia could go to church. She was obviously using something that Julia needed to go to church.

In the previous weeks before this, Kate had used this free time to visit her son, who she had actually left in the care of Mrs. Crease. I was wondering where the kid was. Yeah, Lucy Loaders made Mrs. Crease, who she left her with. But on this particular day, instead of going to visit her son, she went to the hole in the wall. And she ended up returning home late. She was there drinking a lot.

According to Kate, when she got home late and was clearly drunk, Julia, quote, became very agitated and left the house to go to church in that state. Members of her church congregation did later confirm that Julia appeared very angry that day. I mean. And had mentioned that she was late to the service because of Kate. Now, Kate told several different versions of what happened next that afternoon.

So it's difficult to know exactly which one is accurate, but we can figure out pretty much how it went down. The evidence and testimony support this version of events. Okay. When the service ended, Julia returned home in much the same agitated state than when she left and she went upstairs. Just get out of my house. She's like, get the fuck out, I'm done with you.

Like, please leave, you're annoying. When you want someone to leave your house, you just want them to leave. And especially when it's someone that you have to be scared of and tiptoeing around. So she went upstairs, Kate followed her upstairs and the two women began arguing. And at this point, she, Julia demanded, you have to leave the fucking house. You have to get out. Yeah. Like I'm not living like this anymore. So

Julia is just like, get out of my house. Now, Julia at this time, I think is in her early fifties. Oh, okay. Just so you're aware of like, you know, obviously we're in the 1800s, early fifties looks a little different in the 1800s. It's much older. Right. So she was like, you need to, Julia was like, you need to get the hell out of the house. I'm done with this. Like I've had an ass. You've overstayed your welcome. And she's so basically what Kate saw it as is you're rescinding your offer for me to stay longer. Like how dare you? And it's like, well, you're an asshole.

Well, it's like, she gave that to you kind of out of like. She kind of felt like obligation to do it. Pressured into it, yeah. And in response, Kate became very angry to this and became physically aggressive. Oh my God. And pushed Julia and ended up pushing her down the stairs. Oh shit.

And Kate told investigators she had a heavy fall. I felt that she was seriously injured and I became agitated at what had occurred, lost all control of myself. And to prevent her screaming and getting me in trouble, I caught her by the throat and in the struggle, she was choked and I threw her on the floor. I love how she says she was choked.

It's like, no, what you meant to say was I choked her. It's like you are removing yourself from that. Like the active participation role and she was choked off. By what bitch? And it's like this lady fell down that you threw her down the stairs. She got hurt and then you were like, oh, I better kill her. What the fuck? So I don't get in trouble.

What do you mean you better kill her? Like, why don't you just leave? Yeah, dip. What are you doing? in trouble. What do you mean you better kill her? Like, why don't you just leave? Yeah, dip. What are you doing? Skip town. What are you doing killing her? And like, I threw her on the floor, like Jesus. It's horrible.

And remember, Kate's a big lady. Yeah, right. And Julia is not. Yeah. So she's using her like brute strength to throw her on the floor and to choke her manually. And she's much older. Like she's not. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Not able to really put up a fair fight. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Comparison, you guys, is the thief of joy. And it's really easy to envy other people's lives, especially when we are living in the day and age of social media. It might look like people have it all together on their own Instagram, but in reality, they probably don't. Their life is just as messy as the next guy's. Therapy can help you focus on what you want instead of what

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quote a noise like the fall of a heavy chair around the time the murder was believed to have been committed, but otherwise no one heard anything else. Oh wow. Now shocked by what she had just done because holy shit, Kate moved quickly because she was like, I have to dispose of the body and clean up this mess because she had not only choked her out, but she had thrown her down the stairs and there was blood. Like she had hurt herself. And she said, I became entirely lost and without any control over myself and looking on what had happened and the fear of being discovered, I determined to do away with the body as best as I could.

That's not out of control. No, that's not out of control. That's perfectly in control. Yeah. You made very rational decisions for what you thought you were doing. So she, it gets worse. She dragged Julia's body into the kitchen and using a razor and a kitchen knife, she quote, stripped it, cut it up and threw it into a copper pot.

Oh, yep. Okay. She had already started boiling water that day for the washing. And so she just threw all the pieces into the boiling water. But I don't know if anybody's following, but that's boiling flesh. That's going to smell really bad. Unable to tolerate the smell of the boiling body parts, Kate then just left the house and went back to the hole in the wall pub where she spent several hours drinking, chatting with people, hanging out. While Julia's dismembered body is back at the house and is boiling in a pot. Also like, how big is this pot?

Yeah. Well, she didn't put all of her, she put most of her in there. You'll find out what happens to the rest of her. So she went to the hole in wall, drank, you know, had fun, went back that night to clean up the rest of the blood because my goodness was that place covered in blood. Um, how is she not covered in blood? Oh, well, that's the other thing. She started wearing, um, Julius clothing. I was good. She would have had to have changed. She started wearing her clothing and Mrs. Ives, the landlady

and Lord and Lordy, the landlady. The landlady. That's a better like title. The landlady. I thought you were going to say the landlodian. That's a better title. The landlady. Hello, I'm the landlady. It's like when people say lordy lordy. Landlady lordy. I'm the landlady lordy. But Mrs. Ives, the landlady and other neighbors around did corroborate this whole thing because they said the neighborhood began to fucking re-

Well that's the thing, it's not like just the house is gonna smell, this is some old timey shit. This is in the 1800s. We don't really have like good air quality anyways. And this is a middle class neighborhood where everything is really close together too. And they don't have these like, you know, weather tested window panes and shit that's gonna like keep anything in. It's like everything's just seeping out into everywhere.

And so the whole neighborhood smelling Julia boiling in a pot. Now during the coroner's inquest several weeks later, there were also claims made that Kate had quote fed the fat dripping to local children to eat and called it pigs lard. Is that for real? It's in the inquest. No. Yes. No.

Yeah. Kate's fucked. Kate's fucked. Kate's fucked. Ew. Now when she returned to the house a few hours later, Kate put the remaining body parts in a box, but Julia's head and one of her feet wouldn't fit in the box. So she buried the head in a nearby empty lot and then threw the foot into a garbage pile.

Fantastic. Yeah. A few days later, after weighing the box down with some stones, she threw Julia's remains into the Thames. Then returned to the house and was pretty confident. Like, I think I just committed the perfect crime. I don't know about that sister. She was so confident. She walked back to that house and was like, well, I'm just going to live

here for a while. I'm just going to use her shit. Nobody's going to ask where Julia is. Everyone knows she doesn't like you. No, but as previously stated, Julia was a widow and had no children. So her immediate absence wouldn't have been like so noticed. But also remember our girls Julia liked to take off and not tell anyone on travel. Yeah, she loved last minute travel. She wouldn't tell her closest contacts sometimes. So neighbors and friends had become kind of accustomed

to her just disappearing for periods of time and really without warning. So it really worked in Kate's favor. It gave her ample time to clean that crime scene without feeling even the slightest impetus to flee. She was like, you know what? No, I work here. As far as anybody's concerned,

me being in this house is totally fine. And if anyone asks, I just say Julia's on vacation again and I'm keeping the house. Even where people like Julia had told people she was afraid of Kate. Yeah. She could just be like, Oh, well, I, you know, like we came to an agreement. We worked it out.

We worked it out. Oh shit. After disposing of Julia's remains in the Thames, Kate returned to the house and started cleaning just to give the general appeal appearance of normalcy. She didn't want to arouse any suspicions after all. And by dumping the remains in the river, Kate believed she had gotten rid of any evidence that could prove a murder had even occurred. She was like, those are never going to come back up. The river will eat them. Yeah, that's how water works.

And they will never be seen again. Totally. Except one day later on March 5th, a coal porter traveling along the road adjacent to the river just saw a box and it had resurfaced about five miles away from where she had dumped this box. The other thing girlfriend, like I'm not saying do better because don't. Don't. But like you threw it in a box.

Sometimes boxes float. Yeah. Well, she weighted it down. Oh, she did. Okay. So she did think it was going to be weighted down, but like, shit happened. It's a river. Yeah.

Rivers flow. They do. Things happen. It's a river. Yeah. Rivers flow. They do. Things happen. They're known to. Yeah. Gently down the stream in fact. Well, this guy saw this box and this was Julia's box. This wasn't some cardboard box that you just find. This was Julia's like, it was a fancier box.

Almost like a trunk. Yeah, like some kind of nice box essentially. So this guy saw this and he thought it might contain something valuable because it was a nice looking box. Oh my God. So he fished it might contain something valuable, because it was a nice looking box. Oh my God. So he fished it out of the river and opened it to find several body parts wrapped in brown paper. Not what he was looking for.

So he was like, wow, this isn't what I wanted. So he reported the discovery to the police and an investigation was mounted to just figure out who this was. Yeah. According to the doctor who conducted the examination of the remains, quote, the mutilization of the corpse had a utilization. Why do I keep adding

is a shun onto things lately? I don't know. It's not the word. No, it's not. But you know what? I know that. You know that. We all know that. Do I know that? Because it didn't even hit me. My brain knows that. No, I do know that too, but it's... And I'm reading it. You made it believable. Mutilization. What was the last thing I said? Oh, I forget. There was another thing where I had isation. You did. You absolutely did. What's going on? I don't remember. Maybe you're a speech pathologist. You're in a place of Z. That, you know, I'm listening, listening with my ears. Speech pathology. Here I come. No, sometimes when you're reading fast and it's hard to. Yeah. And sometimes you just want to make a fancy

like mutualization. Sometimes you have a soul and you just go into a completely different accent. So don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Perhaps we could go to the speech pathologist together. There you go, I like it. Perchance.

A two for one. Yeah, let's see if they got any deals. A bogo. A bogo. A bogo. Are you guys writing any bogo sales? They're like, this is a real establishment. Please leave. Like, ma'am, this is a one piece. They're like, oh shit, I'll take a spicy chicken nugget.

You got a fluffa fluffa? Oh shit, I'll take a spicy chicken nuggetization. Suckinization. Oh man. That's good. That's good shit. That's good shit. So what the doctor did say was not mutilization, because he was a doctor and he was smart. So he said the mutilation, because that is the word, of the corpse had certainly been done in an unskilled manner. You could say that. Which, yeah. in an unskilled manner. You could say that. Yeah. Leading investigators to theorize that the crime had been committed by someone who had

no experience in killing or dismemberment. Damn. To go that far, that would have never killed before is wild. Like that's your first foray. That's a lot. That's something. Now, other than the human remains inside, there was really nothing unique about the box.

It was a nice box, but that's really it. And there was really no clues to where it came from. Just popped out of the river. So that left Scotland Yard investigators with very little to work with. Because of this, the press began referring to the case initially as the Barnes mystery, which that was the area where the box was discovered. And that's why they named it that. A few days later, the mystery deepened though, when a severed foot was found, quote,

buried in a dung heap in Twickenham. Oh, that's so awful. And I looked it up Twickenham, because I was like, is it Twickenham? I don't want to be that person. Is it Twickenization? Twickenization maybe? Town? But the doctor examined the foot and concluded it was the missing limb from the body parts

found in the Thames. Oh wow. Still missing a head though. On March 16th, the coroner's inquest was carried out to determine the cause of death, but with little information and no clues, it was kind of impossible to come out with any final conclusions. In his testimony, the examining doctor, Dr. Adams, gave the dimensions of the dismembered body parts. And I'm not sure if he was okay, to be quite honest, because he incorrectly identified the victim as a woman of between 18 and 30. And she may have born children.

Incorrect, incorrect. On both fronts, all incorrect. Like, are you okay, sir? I think he probably just thought there was a strong chance that, you know, he's like, she's a woman. She's definitely a woman. Probably had kids. The 1800s. She probably did. Most people that die are 18 to 30 when they're murdered. 50, 50 shot and you got it wrong. Yeah, and all friends. But after being assured by Scotland Yard detectives that without any additional information, it was unlikely the victim would be identified. The inquest was unfortunately closed in late March because they were like, we don't really know how we're going to do anything with this.

Yeah. Because remember, it's the 1800s. They're like, whoops, I guess that's it. Like that sucks, but I guess we have nothing else. So as the Barnes mystery unfolded several miles away, Kate Webster just kept living in Julia's house, like I said, wearing her clothes, going about her usual business and continuing to give the impression that everything was fine. That's so fucked that she just wearing her clothes.

Yeah, that part I hate a lot. Yeah. Now during this period, she claimed she got the idea to sell off Julia's furniture and other valuables as a means of funding her escape. See, that's... That's what makes me think. Yeah.

Yeah. She says, it was suggested in my mind to sell all there was in the house and go away. The way this bitch talks, like she's not even there. She's not even part of this whole thing. She was choked. It was suggested in my mind. When I say something rude to somebody, I'm going to be like, oh my God, I'm sorry.

My mind just suggested that. I said like two. That was just suggested in my mind. That's all. I apologize. I have to take the suggestions. Not on me. And they have to come out my mouth, but like I don't necessarily create them.

Do you think she's talking like that because she was trying to sound like perhaps insane or do you think she's just an asshole? I think she's just an asshole to be quite honest. I'm also in a big place of perhaps today. I don't know if you've noticed. Perhaps she's just an asshole. Perhaps. But to do all this, because now she's got to sell all the furniture,

Kate contacted an associate she had committed robbery with in the past. Hey, old habits die hard. You know, and they made the two made arrangements with a local salesman named John Church. And John Church was going to buy Julia's furniture and other belongings for sale. Great. The thing was John Church was told that Kate was Julia and that she was selling her stuff because she was moving. That's spooky. Yeah. Great podcast. That is a great podcast. Now, at the same time, she continued ordering items to be delivered to the house on Julia's tab to try to keep it going. Right. Like, oh, she's alive. She's shopping. Keep it going that she's

alive, like the whole thing. Now, on March 18th, Church arrived at Julia's house with his horse and cart to remove the furniture. While Julia's absence hadn't been entirely out of the ordinary, as far as the neighbors were concerned, seeing a stranger removing her furniture from the house when she wasn't there. That'll do it. That was a little weird to them.

Now somewhat suspicious, Mrs. Ives, our landlordy there. She confronted John Church, who explained to that Mrs. Thomas, Mrs. Ives, our landlordy there. Landlordy. She confronted John Church, who explained to that Mrs. Thomas, Mrs. Julia Thomas had sold him the items. But when he described Thomas for Mrs. Ives. Little bit different. He was describing Kate Webster. So realizing she had been found out,

Kate just took the fuck off. She just fled the house and went immediately to the train station where she caught a train to Liverpool. Just jumped a train. Julia's disappearance though, was quickly reported to police now by the neighbors, as was the suspicion that Kate had something to do with her absence.

Since she just up and vanished. And she was like posing as her to sell her shit. An investigator soon connected the remains discovered in the Thames with the disappearance of Julia Thomas. The big break came when detectives managed to track down a local boy who claimed that a woman matching Kate's description had asked him for help carrying a box to the river. She asked a little boy to help her carry that shit to the river? Yep.

Wow. Which they concluded was now the remains of Julia Thomas. That's fucked. During a search of Julia's home, investigators discovered the copper pot at the back of the house that was quote, covered with fat. With the, and the coroner later explained

that the reasons the remains had been preserved with quote, a parchment like appearance was because of that like rendered fat. They also discovered blood stains and other evidence all over the house that strongly suggested that a violent murder had occurred. She wasn't good at cleaning. She was not. We are so excited to be partnering with Embark, the provider of the most accurate dog DNA test on the market and the absolute best gift to get the dog Lava in your life.

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Visit EmbarkVet.com and use promo code morbid to save $50 today. Sydney and Blanche highly recommend it. Scotland yard detectives couldn't yet prove that Julia had been murdered by Kate, but there was enough evidence to arrest Kate for robbery at least, and a warrant was put out for her arrest. Though her whereabouts at this time, no one knew. Now under normal circumstances, 19th century detectives would have had a very difficult time tracking a criminal who'd fled the city, particularly one who had a significant head start. Because again, it's the 1800s. This isn't easy. They're not just like, oh, follow their cell phone signal. It's literally like,

they're gone. We don't know where they went. But she had a significant criminal history. Kate was very known to authorities in various places around England and Ireland. And so a constable in Wexford recognized her from a previous arrest and contacted Scotland Yards. I know that asshole. I know that bitch. And the Wexford constable gave detectives from London the address of Kate's relatives in the area. And on March 29th, she was arrested at her uncle's home in Killen and transported right on back to London. See ya. Now on Monday morning, March 31st, Kate was brought before

the magistrates in Richmond, where she was charged with the murder of Julia Martha Thomas, as well as larceny for the theft and attempted sale of Thomas's property. Now at the time, John Church was also charged with being a conspirator in the crime and for receiving stolen property. Those charges would be eventually completely dropped. That's good. Because it was determined he had absolutely nothing to do with it. Yeah. I mean, she was posing as Julia. At first though, Kate tried to pin the blame of the murder on John Church.

Yeah, that's not shocking. No. Not at all. She said, I first got acquainted with him when I was living two or three doors down from him. She said, he used to take me out to London into various public houses. I met him again some months ago and he came to my mistress's house one night, the worst for drink.

So he came drunk. And according to Kate, it was Church who suggested they murder Julia for profit from selling her shit. Meanwhile, he's like, no, no, no, I thought that was Julia. Like, I don't know her. And he's like, I'm a furniture buyer. Like, why would I sell, to me, would I sell it to?

Like, I'm a furniture buyer. Like, what the fuck? That doesn't make any sense. And she quoted Church as allegedly saying, we could have her things and go off to America together and enjoy it. Wow. She really thought. Me thinks you had a crush on John Church and you want to create this like fantasy of him being like, we'll run off to America together. And John Church is like, help. I thought she

was Julia. Like what the fuck? And Kate went on to claim that Church murdered Julia Thomas himself. Oh my God. And threatened to kill her as well if she spoke a word of the crime to anyone. And you know, didn't pretend to be Julia.

Exactly. Now in statements to both the police and the press, John Church denied literally anything. Word for word. He's like, I only recently met Kate Webster and I thought she was Julia Thomas. I don't know her. We didn't hang out. I didn't want to run off to America with her.

I don't even know her real name. According to John Church, the woman he now knew to be Kate Webster had been introduced to him only a couple of weeks earlier by a mutual acquaintance. And she claimed to have, what she had said to him was that she had weeks earlier by a mutual acquaintance. And she claimed to have what she had said to him was that she had lost her husband a few years earlier. So she was literally cosplaying Julia Thomas saying, I'm a widow. Oh, fuck. And she was attempting to rent rooms in her home as a means of income, which is literally what Julia Thomas was doing. This is psychotic. But she said she had been unsuccessful at keeping people like lodgers, so she needed

to sell her furniture. Okay. That's what she was telling him. And the two had made an arrangement and the next time he saw her was just to pay for the goods. And then he said, and then I attempted to pick up the items, but then I was stopped by Mrs. Ives. Right.

And church said, what the fuck is going said- He's like, what is happening? And he said, only just think of the impudence and audacity of the woman to come here dressed up in her silk dresses, representing herself to be a lady and the mistress of the house and swindle me in this way and bring all the trouble on me. That translates roughly into fuck this. To like, what is this fuck shit? What is this? That translates into this bitch.

This bitch? That's what that translates into in 2024. But within a few days of the arrests, Kate had implicated yet another suspected conspirator named Henry Porter, who had introduced her to church for the sale of the furniture. According to Kate, Porter had also been in on the scheme and had even used his young son Robert to help Kate dispose of the remains in the Thames. And Kate said, church and Porter were with me at the time. I intended to tell the whole truth as I do not see why I should be blamed for what church

has done. And remember, she's a fucking liar. She lies about everything. She's got big old issues. But fortunately for Church, several people testified as to having seen him at the bar, the rising sun on the night of the murder. And similarly, in her deposition, Porter's wife, Henry Porter's wife, gave a detailed explanation of how the family had come to know Kate and insisted that while her husband may have introduced Kate to John Church for the sale of the furniture, he had no idea that the items were stolen or that Julia had been murdered.

Yeah, no, of course not. They thought she was on vacation. After several continuances and pre-trial hearings, Kate finally went to trial at the Old Bailey, we've heard of that before, on July 2nd, 1879. Due to the extensive coverage of the case leading up to this trial and just the sensational details of the case, the courtroom was well attended by curious onlookers. There were additional people outside the courthouse wanting to know what was going on. And at the time, Kate pleaded not guilty and continued to say that the murder had been committed by others.

And in support of their argument, Kate's lawyer, Werner Slay, pointed out that that which were Slay reminds me of legally blonde. What? Like it's hard. Like it's hard. He pointed out that the crown had no physical evidence connecting Kate to the murder and whatever evidence they did have was entirely circumstantial. In fact, Slay argued there was no real evidence

supporting the theory that Julia Thomas had died by violence. Except for the fact that she was dismembered and her body was boiled. Like, my god, are you serious? It's natural causes. Are you real? What is your definition of natural causes?

Natural causes. She just flew apart into a boiling pot of water. Into a copper pot. Are you real? Are you real? What is your definition of natural causes? She was naturally natural causes. She just flew apart into a boiling pot of water. And then fell into a copper pot. It's crazy. And then somehow ended up in a river. Who are you, sir? Word or Slay?

Yikes. He did not get a law degree from Harvard. And then he said, and actually there's no conclusive evidence that say the remains in the box belonged to Julie at all. And it's like, except that the coroner said they did, but okay. Also, Slay added that even if a murder had occurred, and that's a big F on his part. What's all that blood, baby?

Who could ever believe that a young woman and the mother of a child could have committed such an heinous act? So he's standing in front of this courtroom being like, yeah, I know, I know that we have all this evidence, circumstantial or whatever, but she's a woman. A woman. She's a mother.

A mother. She couldn't have done this. No, case closed. Get it out of here. Yikes. And the prosecution on the other hand strongly rejected Kate's claims of innocence and cited her very lengthy criminal repast and reputation for just general unpleasantness. They were like, actually, she quite sucks. Yeah, they were like, she's kind of a dick. More importantly, the Crown had evidence on their side. They were like, regardless of what you're saying, there is evidence.

In one witness after another, the prosecutor, Harry Poland, put the pieces of the complicated story back together for the jury. A 13-year-old girl who was a neighbor of Julia positively identified that special box in which the remains had been found as one she had seen many times in Thomas' house a year earlier, essentially putting to rest any questions as to whether these remains were actually Julia's. And also the coroner and examining doctor testified that although they couldn't be certain without the head, the remains matched those of the woman, the age and size of Julia Thomas.

So there it is. So they got a different doctor and to be like, actually, no. Actually. Now, although the prosecution's case was kind of complicated in their closing remarks, Poland and the prosecution team laid out the case pretty simply. After receiving a notice of termination, Kate Webster had become pissed and murdered her employer Julia Thomas. There it is.

She told her to leave. The testimony of several witnesses indicated that Kate had been seen disposing of the remains in the Thames, and that following the murder, she was known to have sold Thomas's belongings and wear her fucking clothes. It was true, Pollan acknowledged, that the evidence was largely circumstantial, but common sense dictated that if Kate had gone so far as to dispose of the body and get rid of all the evidence of the crime, she was likely the one to have committed the crime. One could say.

And Pollan reminded the jury, neither Porter nor Church were traced in any connection with Mrs. Thomas's house till after the murder. The accused woman was undoubtedly there as a domestic servant. So? So after seven days of trial, the jury found Kate Webster guilty of the willful murder of Julia Thomas. After the verdict was read, the magistrate asked Kate whether there was any reason that a sentence of death should not be handed down to her. And Kate insisted, I am not guilty, my lord,

of the murder. I've never done it. And as I was taken into custody, I was in a hurry. I made a statement against Church and Porter. I'm very sorry for doing so, but I was told to do so. They are quite innocent of anything of the sort, and I want them to be clear of it." So now she's completely retracting all of her accusations against them. But is also saying I still didn't do it. Yeah. And she was told to say that, I'm like by the police. Exactly. It's like, was it another mind suggestion? I was going to say it was suggested in her mind. In her final statement, Kate pretty much undermined her entire defense

by clearing church importer of anything. And instead she insisted the real killer now was the father of her unborn child. She was preggers? She said, yes, I'm pregnant. And they were like, wow, you didn't bring that up until right now. And they were like, what's his name?

And she was like, I will not tell you that. And they were like, you don you didn't bring that up until right now. And they were like, what's his name? And she was like, I will not tell you that. And they were like, you don't want to give us the name. You just want to go to jail instead. Like you don't want to tell us who actually killed this man. She said, nope. And the magistrate, though he had been very patient by this point, he clearly didn't believe shit. So he said, after so many false statements, which you have made, it must not be assumed

as a matter of mere course that you are telling the truth now. And with the trial over the magistrate made it clear that his only course of action was to pass sentence and with that he sentenced Kate to be hanged. Bye girl. Now it was later determined that Kate was not pregnant. She was not pregnant during any of this. She was probably just like last straw. She was trying to during any of this. She was probably just like last straw. She was trying to get out of it. Um, and her appeal, which she filed several weeks

later was immediately rejected. Oh good. On July 28th, the night before she was executed, Kate recanted all her previous statements and made a full confession to the murder. She wrote, we had an argument which ripened into a quarrel and in the height of my anger and rage, I threw her from the top of, and in the height of my anger and rage, I threw her from the top of the stairs to the ground floor. In her confession, she insisted that she had intended for her job with Julia Thomas to be a new start for her and her son, and that she never intended to kill or rob the woman. She said, I did not murder Mrs. Thomas from any premeditation. I was enraged and in a passion and I cannot now recollect

why I did it. Something did seize me at the time. So she's saying, I lost my shit and I murdered this woman. Not only threw her down the stairs and choked the life out of her, but then toddled down the stairs after her and choked the life out of her and threw her onto the ground and then dismembered her and used a razor and a kitchen knife to dismember her, boil her remains in a pot, bury her head in an empty lot, throw her foot into a trash pile and then throw the rest in the Thames and then wear her fucking clothing and pretend to be her and then sell her shit. And she's like, but I didn't like plan it, everybody.

I did intend to just work. And it's like, that's so nice that you intended to work. Seems as though it didn't work out that way. That's really nice. But like you did some shit. Oy to the vey, girl. In her final statement, Kate said, I am perfectly resigned to my fate and am full of confidence in a happy eternity.

If I had a choice, I would almost sooner die than return to a life full of misery, deception and wickedness. And with her confession made and her conscience, um, allegedly cleared, Kate Webster was executed the following morning in the yard at Wandsworth Prison and buried in an unmarked grave and the crowd assembled outside the prison cheered. Hey, now you may be wondering what happened to Julie's head? Did they find it? Where is it? I haven't found it yet. Well, throughout the investigation and trial investigators were continually vexed by that

point. They could not find her head. Kate had claimed she buried it in a vacant lot, but they were never able to find it. And they said they believed it was just irretrievably lost. They couldn't like where it's not where she says it is. I don't know where it is. And then one day in 2010, a skull was discovered by some workers. Are you ready? In the garden of BBC broadcaster and famous David Attenborough. What? In the garden of

David Attenborough, they found a skull. They sent it for forensic testing. That skull was identified as the 130-year-old skull of Julia Martha Thomas. What? That skull was the final missing piece of the mystery. And with its discovery, it is 100% sure that Kate Webster did this because she pointed them to where that is. They just couldn't find it. What the fuck? In David Attenborough's fucking garden, they found Julian Martha Thomas's skull. That's wild. He's the guy that does all those nature videos and like under the sea.

The voice of an angel. Yes. Yeah. That David Attenborough. That one. That one. I'll never listen to one of those the same way. 2010. They found the final. Was he just gardening? And this is why I'm telling you, there is always hope to close a fucking case. Totally. 130 years later. Always. There's never a time where you can say we will never find out. That's why I hold out hope for Jack the Ripper shit because I'm telling you, there's always something, there's always a chance.

I did not see it going that way. No. So it closed it right out too. It put a nice pin in it that it said, Kate Webster did this. Absolutely. What she said was true. It happened. And that John Church and the other guy, the airporter were not any part of this.

Wow. Yeah. I'm shook. Isn't that crazy? That was a wild fucking case. Yeah. It's gnarly. So that is what is called the Richmond murder, the murder of Julia Martha Thomas. That's so sad. She sounded like a really cool lady. Yeah.

She didn't deserve what she got. Kate sounded like a fucking trip. Kate is a trip and not an enjoyable one. Not at all. And she really fucked herself at that point. Very much so. She could have had a nice cushy job here. Yeah, and it's so creepy that she just kept wearing her shit. Like what? Selling her stuff and taking like ordering things on her tab. Yeah, what? Like what the fuck?

And then she's like, I didn't plan it. It's like, okay, but you did some terrible shit afterwards, dude. Like just because you didn't plan it. Do your job. And if you throw somebody down the stairs, you gotta call someone. Yeah. Don't throw people down the stairs. Don't, obviously.

Yeah. So that's that. Well, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you kill your employer and chop her up into little pieces and then boil her on the stove and feed the fat to local children. Don't do that. Yuck. So Oh, okay. Are you all right today? The fuck? You're insane. Insane woman.

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wonderu.com slash survey. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankenbaum. And in our series Legacy, we look at the lives of some of the most famous people to have ever lived and ask if they have the reputation they deserve. In this series, we look at J. Edgar Hoover.

He was the director of the FBI for half a century. An immensely powerful political figure, he was said to know everything about everyone. He held the ear of eight presidents and terrified them all. When asked why he didn't fire Hoover, JFK replied, you don't fire God. From chasing gangsters to pursuing communists to relentlessly persecuting Dr. Martin Luther King

and civil rights activists, Hoover's dirty tricks tactics have been endlessly echoed in the years since his death. And his political playbook still shapes American politics today. Follow Legacy now, wherever you listen to podcasts.