Morbid - Episode 605: The Stars Over Salem with Special Guest Aliza Kelly

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

We're getting into Spooky Season proper now, and to celebrate, we hung out with our friend Aliza from the PAVE podcast Horoscope Weekly with Aliza Kelly! Today we dive into Alaina's 'Roman Empire'- The Salem Witch Trials, and see how the stars over Salem played into the infamous tragedy!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And I'm Aliza. And this is a special edition of Morbid. So special. This is so cool. We have Aliza Kelly on the show today, bestselling author, professional astrologer, and host of PAVE's new show Horoscope Weekly with Aliza Kelly.

Welcome. Yay, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. A fellow weirdo. Yes. I be here. A fellow weirdo. Yes. I love that. A lifelong weirdo.

Weirdos unite. The vibes are right. Yes. We knew immediately. We were like, weirdos unite. Yeah. I mean, I could sniff out a weirdo from miles away. So yeah.

This is perfect. Home sweet home for me. You love it. Game, see game. So we're going to be getting into Alina's Roman Empire, the Salem witch trials again. I know you all said that before Ash did. They were like, oh, we're talking about Salem. They're like, really? Either Jack the Ripper or Salem is one of those two things.

One of the two, but we're putting a fun spin on it this time. Yeah. And we're going to talk about the astrological events that were going on. And just to start us off, Elisa, how did you get into astrology? Was it something you've always been interested in? Was it something that just like knocked on your door? Well, I mean, it's sort of a combination.

I mean, as I mentioned, lifelong weirdo here, you know? So I don't think that anyone was surprised when I started to gravitate more towards astrology. But at the same time, I was really quite surprised by it. I was in my early 20s. I was living in Los Angeles. I was at that time working. I had graduated with a degree in art history.

I was working in galleries, and I was finding myself increasingly dissatisfied with my life and just feeling that, I mean, what we all go through in our early 20s, what many of us do, the sense of like confusion, who am I, what am I doing? And I started to try to solve that puzzle. And I found my birth chart. I found out that not only was I a Leo son, which I related to a little bit, but not fully, but discovering I was a Pisces moon. Really?

Same. Oh my God. Yeah. Look at that. It's a big breakthrough when you get that placement. Yeah. And it unlocked so much for me. And then from there, I just, you know, I kept researching, I kept studying. And then I started to realize that, you know, this language was something that wasn't just applicable to me, but other people were also interested in my interpretations of what was going on with their charts. So gradually it just started to build and there was a whole host of, this was 10 years

ago now, so there was a whole host of things that happened. I started an astrology dating app in 10 years ago with a friend from college. We were sort of ahead of the curve on that. Yeah, that's such a cool idea. Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, it was also right when Tinder and Hinge and all of this were coming out. So smart. So it was sort of recognizing like, here's an interesting space where people want to

be making these connections, but right now it's so superficial. So just starting to realize and starting to sort of create this more modern vocabulary around astrology has always been something that was really significant and meaningful to me, especially because when I started, it was still very much reserved for like kooky aunts in San Jose. You know, like it was like, you know,

you were wearing like big turquoise jewelry and like going through beads to talk about astrology. And I wanted to find a way to make it relevant because I saw how valuable it was and how instrumental it was for helping people connect the dots and figure out who they were holistically. And that's what I've really been doing in various ways in various formats ever since. I am really so passionate about it because I really think it is a beautiful way of building confidence, empowerment, compassion, understanding who you are,

understanding what the people in your life are about. And of course we can use it for cool things like looking back into the past, like what we're gonna do today, and seeing what was going on, what were the trends. And that is really valuable. It's valuable to see patterns and to recognize where things keep coming up, where those pain points are so that we can ideally learn from them and not do Salem witch trials all over again. That's the thing, because I feel like everybody knows their sun sign and knows a little bit

about astrology. But when you really start to look into it, it can tell you all these different things. And looking into the stars over Salem, I feel like it's going to be so interesting. Yeah. And what you said about knowing more about yourself when you start learning more about your zodiac and what's your chart, what's going on. Because Ash started getting into it and telling me more about things about me. And it helped me understand you better. It helped me understand myself better. And it's like and then helped me understand you know like my relationship with you like Gemini why certain things like work and why certain things are like iffy and why certain

you know why we do this. And it's I don't think people look into it far enough that way. And it's like, it's really helpful when you, it can make you sit there and go like, Oh, that's why I'm that way. Like that checks, like validates. Yeah, definitely. Something that I've always said is that to me, you know, the question of whether astrology is or isn't real is less significant than recognizing that when we have astrological conversations, we have better conversations. We have richer conversations.

We open up. We're vulnerable. We really are allowing ourselves to be multi-dimensional, which is a truth. But it's often, whether or not we are even intending to, we sort of stick to our own stereotypes. We believe that we are a certain way,, we sort of stick to our own stereotypes. We believe that we are a certain way and thus we show up as that way. And with astrology, we are reminded of the fact that no, how you present yourself might

not be how you feel and how you communicate might not be what motivates you. And that each one of these pieces of you has its own merits and has its own strengths and also, of course, its own weaknesses so that its own strengths, and also of course its own weaknesses. Of course. So that we can see holistically how we sort of move through the world. Yeah, absolutely. I think the more into it you get,

the harder it is to deny that it's real. And I think having this conversation today is gonna prove that big time. Yeah, I mean, I will never argue with the efficacy of astrology. I've seen it changed my life, and working with it and understanding how these planets move and seeing their patterns

is really wild, you know? It was wild to be an astrologer in 2020, and it was wild to be an astrologer in 2018 and 2019, looking at the astrology of 2020. And being like, something big is coming, right? astrologer in 2018 and 2019 looking at the astrology of 2020. Oh, that must have been a trip. Something big is coming. Oh, God. I'm just not knowing what it was. Yeah. And I have all of my receipts from back then in sort of being like, you know, let's keep focused on 2020 because something is really interesting going to happen here.

Wow. Not of course knowing what it was because that was not within my sort of purview to understand. But then at that time to see, okay, when Jupiter and Saturn connect, these types of things happen as has been reported over history. When Saturn and Pluto connect, these types of things happen and it all really lined up. So I really, you know, it's been for this duration of time for a decade of doing astrology, I can say that it is, there is really something to it, you know, it really does check out and it definitely checks out

in these charts too. It's gonna be so interesting to hear some of these things because I feel like it's gonna be like ding ding, like all of a sudden it's just going to be like, oh, okay. So that was happening because it's a mass hysteria event, right? No one's been able to explain. I mean, people go into like the ergot poisoning theory where it's like, you know, there was a fungus on the wheat that they were making the bread with and maybe there's something

to it. Lose it. And it's like, but maybe there's more to this. Like that mass hysteria just seemed too much for like, you know, a fungus to be the reason, or for just people having groupthink to be the reason. It's like, maybe there is something that was going on that kind of set everybody off.

Yeah, and I guess, you know, what I, how I want to sort of preface all of this is that when we talk about astrology, we have to remind ourselves that we can't, and we're not talking about it on a binary of good or bad. Astrology is much more complex than just there being a positive and negative, right? Like there's lots of manifestations of how these different planets and their different zodiac signs can come to fruition. So just because if we find ourselves talking about Gemini, which we're going to, it does not mean

that our Gemini listeners are all Salem witch trials. You guys are accusers. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't mean that they are the ones who are, they're the problem, right? It's not us guys. They're not the problem. It's not me. They're not the problem.

It's interesting because we're definitely gonna talk about a lot of things that are sort of oddly parallel to where we are today. And it doesn't mean that we are currently living in the same conditions as these Puritans we're living in, in a colonial America. Obviously life is very different and things are very different, but what's cool about astrology is that we can start to see, well, if we take this path instead of another path,

this is how these energies could play out. And in the case of these trials and in all of these individuals who were involved in it, they were definitely doing sort of like the less ideal version of their signs. But that doesn't mean that they had to. You know, that was just how it played out here in this context. So that's sort of like my disclaimer. That's great. I mean, I'll also, I will say no Capricorn to be found among this whole thing, but- But that doesn't even mean anything. I'm just saying, just saying. Yeah, I'm sure you have your own. You're like the crusades or something. I was going to say, I'm sure we have some

of that. We'll find some of that. We'll find the Capricorn era. We will find one. Aliza's return to Morbid will be the Capricorn era. I feel like I found one. This is what you did. Exactly. Can you explain exactly what a birth chart is, just in case people don't know what, because we're going to be talking about a lot of dates, a lot of birthdays, just so people understand like what this is all encompassing. So a birth chart is a snapshot of the sky at the exact moment of a birth or an event. So when we look at a birth chart, we can see where all of the planets were at that moment.

And each planet in astrology has a role. It has something that it's doing. It's signifying something. And then the way in which it does that thing that it does is in the zodiac sign that it occupies. So if we have the planet Uranus, which is the planet of revolution and innovation, it's going to express itself differently in Taurus, which is an earth sign. It's about sort of groundedness and practicality versus in Gemini, which is an air sign that

has to do with curiosities and innovation and new sort of connections and new ways of thinking. So when we look at all of these different planets, we're going to get a sense of what was the atmosphere, what was going on in the backdrop of this time. And especially as we look to see sort of these events unfolding, what's cool and what I observed as I was pulling them is that there's sort

of this crescendo that happens throughout this year. And again, you know, there were many points where it didn't have to go as far as it went. And to me, that's also really compelling because there were so many points where it was like, you have this big thing coming up and we're going to talk about what that big thing was in the year 1692. And we sort of applied this storyline to that big thing. And that's how it manifested and unfolded in this case. That's so, I'm so excited to get into this.

I am too. This is just such an interesting way to look at this. Definitely. So I think what we'll start with is we're gonna start with where it all kicked off. So the Salem witch trials began in January, 1692. They didn't end until May, 1693. We'll go through a few dates in between there.

But I think what we'll start with is, can we start with when they all began in January? Yeah, and I love this chart because I think that this chart really sort of establishes what was happening, right? And this chart to me, we have this January 15, 1692 date and this sort of kicks off the story, right? So this is really the birth chart of the Salem with trials to me.

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. It is, yeah. And there's some really interesting things. So well, it was Capricorn season. Oh no! Boom! Oh, we found it! We found it right off the bat!

Right off the first thing that actually gotcha! That was the universe being like, sit down! Max, Elena, sit down! It did start during Capricorn season. Damn. So, but when we look at something as significant as this, we're not going to pay as much attention to the personal planets is what they're called, which are the sun, the moon, Mercury, Venus. We'll pay a little attention to Mars because it's kind of between those. But those planets that I just mentioned before, they're important, but they aren't as much of the generational backdrop as the slower moving planets. So Mars is sort of a between, but definitely Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.

We're really curious about what's going on with those because those are defining what that zeitgeist is. That's what the era is. So some interesting things going on at this time. We had Jupiter and Taurus. I'll go through it first, so sort of run down the list. So we actually, when it starts on January 15, 1692, we have Mars retrograde in Gemini, Jupiter is in Taurus, Uranus is in Gemini. That's a really important one, so flag that. We have Saturn in Sagittarius, also something to flag. Neptune is in Pisces,

and Pluto is in the final degrees of being in cancer. So all of that, each one of these planets is doing something specific and unique at this time. But when I pulled this chart, the first thing that stood out to me was Jupiter in Taurus. That's kind of familiar. We actually just had Jupiter in Taurus in the sky right now.

Jupiter was in Taurus all of last year in 2023. Oh, wow, okay. That's terrifying. But that happens, that's not that crazy. That happens every 12 years. So, okay, there's a cycle around that. But then as I kept sort of poking around, I also was thinking about and anticipating

that throughout this year, we're going to have Jupiter sinking up with Uranus at some point in 1692. That just just happened. And that one isn't that common. That just happened where Jupiter and Uranus, that was April of 2024, those two synced up again. And then as I'm continuing to go around here, I see Neptune is in Pisces in this chart. Neptune is in Pisces right now in the sky. And that one is really rare. That one is a really, that's an 144 year orbit. So that one does not happen very often.

It's very special to have Neptune in Pisces. And I would say that Neptune in Pisces plays a very significant role in all of this, in all of these trials. For us right now, Neptune went into Pisces in 2011 and is going to be leaving Pisces in 2025. So we're at the final end of Neptune's journey through Pisces. I'm going to explain what this means in just a bit as well, but just sort of to, this is my like fly by of what's going on here. The last thing that is really curious to me is

that we had Pluto, which is the planet of transformation, at the final degrees of cancer. Why is that so interesting? Well, currently we have Pluto at the final degrees of Capricorn. Cancer and Capricorn are opposites. So it's exactly 180 degrees away from where it was during the Salem witch trials. Wow. So when I pulled this chart, I was shooketh. Yeah, I was shooketh because I knew that this chart was going to be interesting. Duh.

But not that interesting. But not that interesting. Not that interesting. Not that interesting. Not that interesting. Not such a parallel to where things are right now. Wow. Which then, of course, is why I needed to have this little preface at the beginning because I don't want to scare people into being like, oh no, it's coming back.

But there is something to be said for where we are now. We find ourselves, you know, quite a lot into the future from this time. And yet, somehow I can't imagine that we can relate to this story of mass hysteria. And that it is something that we as a society are constantly needing to sort of check ourselves on. I was just going to say we always have to check ourselves before it tips over. Yes. And obviously the conditions of being in colonial America are very different than today.

But it is interesting how with similar sort of transits, we find ourselves almost always edging on magisteria. Wow. That is wild. That is interesting. We're just somehow better able to pull it back from the brink this time. But if it was in a different environment, a different time, a different series, it could keep tipping over.

Yes. And because we have stories like this, right? Stories like this are powerful reminders of what could happen if we don't rein it in. Yeah. Like cautionary bills. I don't know if our friends here, you know, all of the names that we're going to start mentioning the proctors, the court, the Putnams, was there a precedent for this at that time that they were citing and referencing and being like careful because in the year 1300,

there were these scary things. Like they were so probably swept up in this moment that they weren't aware of the fact that this was, that there was a sort of a cautionary tale to be said for. Yeah. And it does feel like there's so many, and I'm sure we'll get to it, like there's so many times during these trials

where you're like, you could have stopped. Like you could have stopped, why isn't anyone stopping? Why are we taking it further? And they just didn't, they just kept tipping it over. And it got worse and worse. Until finally it did explode and everybody was like, wait a second. Maybe we've overdone it here.

Maybe this isn't okay. Yeah, that's exactly right. So just to sort of summarize what these planets are doing here and sort of the snapshot of the sky when the trials began, there was a really interesting, we were sort of walking this line and we were at this edge between storylines, which is kind of where we find ourselves right now.

With Pluto being in the final degrees of cancer, Pluto is the planet of transformation, but it also is the underbelly of things. It really likes to go deep and expose. It's definitely very connected to sort of the esoteric and the arcane and witchy things. Love that. Yeah, love it. I mean, witch is great.

We love witches. People being falsely accused of witchcraft. Don't love that. Don't love it, right? Don't love that. Hate that actually. And I feel like that sort of, you know, this chart wanted to understand. You know, this chart was really deeply trying to get to what is the truth of what is going on here. And I think that it backfired, obviously, I think. You know, it sort of, where that truth was was misdirected. But I can relate to this chart in it being very curious, in it being very sort of interested in what is going on

behind the scenes and trying to understand sort of the core narrative. And I think the attention was really on sort of like what's, you know, there's all of these weird things happening but what's really at the root of it? Like what's the deep narrative here? And it was this false accusation, is how they manifested that. On a good day, this chart could be a cult, this chart could be witchy, this chart could be interested in journalism, this chart could be sort of spilling the tea,

but it wouldn't, and exposing things, but it would do so with more morals attached to it. Yeah, it reined it in a little. That makes sense. And it's true, because this exposed so much, these trials, like they exposed the issues with Puritanism, it exposed the issues with the colony as a whole,

it exposed some issues with the trial system, how the laws that they were coming, it exposed big families in Salem and the surrounding, you know, towns that were doing things out of vengefulness and, you know, grabbing land whenever they could. So it exposed so much, right? Like in a horrible way. It's horrible that we had to go through all that to expose all these things, but it really, it was a huge exposition of people for sure. Right. And that's really interesting because it's what they thought they were exposing turned out to be the, the falsity, right? But what was actually exposed was the injustice and was the sort of the,

the power dynamics and it was the, this really wackadoo court system. It's so true. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. Which is wild. wackadoo court system. It's so true. Yeah, big time. Which is wild. Well, and this is, so when it first began, it was basically Betty Paris and Abigail Williams

who were the first accusers and they were, they got our girl Tichuba, they got Sarah Osborne and they got Sarah Good for why they were afflicted. And the examinations of the accused began on March 1st of 1692. So I feel like that's a pretty pertinent date, because that's when it all kind of kicked off of them doing the physical examinations,

starting to bring the spectral stuff in. That's when things started getting wacky. So on this day, on March 1st, 1692, it was Pisces season. The sun was at 11 degrees of Pisces, and it was making a conjunction to Neptune. I mentioned Neptune a minute ago. Neptune is the planet of illusion and delusion. Ah, look at that.

Neptune things. It can be very mystical, very spiritual, very sort of between realms. If we're using Neptune correctly, it's sort of our ability to be able, I mean, it's our imagination, it's spectral evidence, right? It's our fantasy world. That makes sense. It also, interestingly, Neptune has to do with the entertainment industry, which I think

is another interesting sort of modern association of Neptune, right? So it's anything sort of that is smoke and mirrors. Okay, that makes sense. So the sun, which represents sort of how we are navigating a day to day, right? It's sort of this, wherever the sun is, this is what was going on at that moment. And the backdrop of it was that it was connected to this very elusive, mysterious planet

in the sign of Pisces, which is also the last sign of the zodiac, also a water sign, elusive, mysterious. So Sun-Neptune conjunction, we would absolutely say that that is something that has, it's high fantasy. High fantasy. Wow. Yeah. Look at that. That's bonkers. Making a square to an exact square to Saturn at 11 degrees of Sagittarius.

Saturn is the planet of rules, restriction, responsibilities, and it also- It's your house limit. Yes, it is. Capricorn is ruled by Saturn. And Saturn also represents the legal system. So we have this high fantasy making this really tight aspect to Saturn in Sagittarius. Sagittarius also has to do with philosophy, religion, the legal system. So we're seeing a very religious legal system. And then we have this harsh aspect, a square, connecting this like fantastical realm to the legal system and to our sort of rigorous religious beliefs.

Wow. That's crazy how spot on that is for everything happening. I have goosebumps because the party doesn't just end there. Oh, God. Wow. So the sun was at 11 degrees, Saturn was at 11 degrees, and Jupiter was at 11 degrees. Jupiter also has to do with the amplification of things, making something bigger. Wow. So there was just the overall message of this chart was like, things are changing around

here. It's popping off. It's going to get crazy. And guess what it's based on? Fantasy. Fantasy land. And we're going to bring it into the legal system, which is supposed to be based on logic, but it's ruled by religion here. Great.

That's exactly it. Wow. And throughout these charts, we see this sort of, well, at this point in the charts, we don't, this actually, we end up sort of losing sight of this as the year goes on. But at this point in the charts, there's this really interesting counterbalance between what is real, what can I rely on, what is factual, and then what is fantasy, right?

And there's this sort of battle between these two things. And eventually we end up sort of completely surrendering to the fantasy world. Oh yeah. But as of right now, it's this tension. It's this sort of like, I want this to be a nice place to live. We want things to be safe here. We're doing this for the people.

The greater good. The greater good, yes. But I guess I should say that the backdrop of this is that we're sort of losing touch with reality progressively. We sure were. Definitely. Yeah. Absolutely.

And it really is, this is when it went from like, they're afflicted, what could this be? And then accusations and this is when it jumped up that notch to the examination period. So it makes sense that that's that like kick up to the next level. Yes. Yes. That's makes sense that that's that like kick up to the next level. Yes, yes. That's so scary. That's terrifying. ["The theories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and new ways of thinking. Find the genres you love and discover new ones along the way.

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This is significant because it's when Sir William Phipps arrived to take his role as the royal governor. And William Phipps does play a big role in all of this, eventually ending them or at least effectively ending them. But this is when he took his role. So this is when he began ruling over. So the main thing that I'm noticing in this chart when I pull this up is that we have two really strong conjunctions happening.

Again, a conjunction is when multiple planets are meeting at the same point. So we have a sun and Jupiter conjunction. The sun was at 24 degrees of Taurus. Jupiter was at 27 degrees of Taurus. Jupiter is the planet of expansion. The sun represents sort of what we are doing in that day. So this is sort of exposing that the events that took place

on this day are going to be big, right? It's sort of being like, this is important. Pay attention to what's happening right now. Sun Jupiter is also generally considered very lucky. So there is a sort of, if you were to look at this chart, you would say this, there is a sort of like a something is fortunate or auspicious in the background of this chart. Another interesting thing is that Pluto, that planet of transformation that wants to get to the underbelly of things, and Mars, which is the planet of action and motivation, are connected at this time too. So simultaneously there's something fortunate and auspicious and that desire to want to uncover

gets louder and louder. So those two stories are both very present in this chart. Wow, that's really. It almost seems like they're like fighting each other with him being appointed governor. Maybe that's the fortunate thing because eventually he's going to be the one that says like, hey, this is a little crazy. But first he's to senses." But first, he's fighting this whole like,

is this really happening with the witches? Is it not happening? Do I bring these people to justice? Do I not? Do I want to cleanse our community? Like, do I want to go with this? Yeah, and there is this sort of true, deep, innate desire to want to figure out what is the root of what is going on, you know?

And I think that if we give this the benefit of the doubt, it's very earnest, you know, it's very earnest of like, there's something, something's weird here in this colony, you know, something's off, something's rotten in the state of Salem. You know, so what's going on here? And I suppose it was pretty fortunate that, like, you know, that William Phipps was appointed governor, not somebody who would have kept this going.

And maybe taken it even somehow a step further. I'm not saying he did the greatest job, but like he did, you know, I feel like somebody else could have been a lot worse. And it makes sense that he didn't do the greatest job because he's got this internal battle in the stars. He might be doing the right thing, but then realizes he is not. Yes. Interesting. Very. Interesting.

Very interesting one. This one feels like it's going to be like a pretty big moment. It's May 27, 1692. It's when seven judges are appointed to the court of Oyer and Terminer. Oyer and Terminer, I've mentioned this in the episodes we've covered this, it means to hear and determine. And they made this for this. And it's Bartholomew Gedney, Nathaniel Saltonstall, John Hathorn, William Sargent, Samuel Seawall, Waitstill

Winthrop, which I still think is a really cool name, even though not a great guy. It's a banger of a name. And William Stoughton. It's a banger of a name. Undeniably great. There's some cool names here. Could have been a star. Yeah. But that's when they were all appointed to this court to oversee the trials, which is

a big deal. So, I mean, it's, this is definitely the tipping point. Feels like it would be. May 27th, 1692. Let's never forget the date, because at this, on this day, Jupiter goes into Gemini. So Jupiter leaves Taurus, right? And we talked about Jupiter being sort of whatever is expanded.

Jupiter expands whatever it's next to. So we have this expansive energy now in Gemini at zero degrees. It just went in. And astrology heads will know that when a planet goes first enters a new zodiac sign, that energy is off the charts. Oh, it's like amplified. Yeah. It's really here to party. And guess where Jupiter is in the sky right now friends. Yeah. And it's also like kind of chaos. Yeah, it's very... I love it. It's a little chaotic.

It's breath summer in the worst way. This is so brilliant. So Jupiter is moved into Gemini and then we have Uranus in Gemini and then we have the sun in Gemini and then Chiron, the planet of, or the asteroid, the comet actually, of wounds, of our deepest wounds is in Gemini, and Mercury is in Gemini. So we have what is called a stellium. This is when multiple planets are meeting at the same point in the sky in Gemini.

And at this point, all of that sort of Taurean rationality that Jupiter was holding on to is gone. We are now in a different realm. Impulsivity station. We're in Gemini. And I want to sort of take a moment here because Gemini always gets a lot of pushback. Our Gemini friends are constantly being ridiculed. Tell me about it, sister. Tell me about it. And there's, Geminis are not evil. There's nothing inherently evil about a Gemini. Geminis rule.

Geminis rule. I think that, you know, what we should know about Geminis is that they're the first air sign, they're symbolized by the twins, and people spin that to be like, oh, two-faced, Jekyll and Hyde. Maybe I just have a duality that you don't understand. Exactly, because twins are not two-faced. Exactly. That's not what they are. So it's a totally wrong assertion. That's exactly right.

Gemini and twins, there's separate, right? And what this symbolizes astrologically is that Geminis are so curious, they're so interested in multiple things that they had to duplicate themselves in order for them to be able to do all of the things and accomplish all the things that they're passionate about.

So it's really less about like one side and then the other side. And it's more like if we're all so busy that we can't make time in the day to do everything, then I have to just be two people. So I can touch upon all the things I'm interested in. Exactly. So I think that often our pushback of Gemini is really a pushback of our own duality, right? And it's more, it exposes the person who is shading on Gemini as someone who can't really handle their own complexities. So justice for Geminis.

Thank you so much for that. I had to say that because we're about to really talk shit about Gemini. I was just going to say, as I say that. Anyway, I'm not saying that Ash Anyway, now. Moving on now. I'm not saying that Ash started the Sail of Witch trials, but I'm not not saying. Well, I had to say that because this is now, this is when the turning point happens, right?

This is when the trials go from, we're trying to do what's best for our community into full-bl blown mass hysteria. Yeah, now it's witch hunts. Yes, and it's gossip. Because that is one of the, we can't deny that Geminis love the tea. Oh, I love a good gossip.

Every sign has a sign, has a trait that could be taken either way. Yeah, it's true. So in this case, what's really interesting to me is that, and we mentioned this at the beginning of the episode, this Jupiter-Uranus conjunction that is looming and it's sort of, it's coming in the year 1692. We're working towards this Jupiter-Uranus conjunction.

The same Jupiter-Uranus conjunction we just had in April of this past year. However, we had it in the sign of Taurus. Now in 1692, it's happening in Gemini. Uranus will be in Gemini in 2025 or 2026, but we will cross that bridge when we get there. We'll handle that as it comes. I'm so scared. So Jupiter and Uranus are coming together or they're soon to be coming together. And the energy around this, Uranus being the planet of innovation, revolution, shocking

things is that we are moving towards a witch hunt revolution with this chart. And the judges being appointed to this court is really marking a new era for what this place is going to be, what the standard, what the precedent is. So as we will soon see, laws come back, right? Laws that had been overturned come back into the fold. And that's because it's a revolution. They're not seeing this as something that's a revolution. They're not seeing this as something

that's a regression. They're seeing this as something that is actually really innovative, which is new rules, new way of doing things. And they see themselves as being highly progressive for how they're approaching this. That makes sense that they saw it that way. Yeah, it does. Absolutely. And again, we see this, the stellium in Gemini is now making an opposition to Saturn and Sagittarius, which we talked about before as sort of our anchor of what the legal system was.

An opposition is 180 degrees apart, so it's sort of being pulled in different directions. On one hand, we have like, we want as much information as possible, says this Gemini stellium. Come in with all of your freaky ass spectral evidence, whatever you have, bring it. We'll listen to it all. We'll listen. We'll listen. We love it. We will hear and determine. Yes. And like, there's no rules to what it could be because the evidence can come from any place

in any way whatsoever. Meanwhile, Saturn is now outnumbered with all of this. So Saturn and Sagittarius is like, okay, well, I guess if this is gonna be the philosophy, if this is gonna be the court system, so be it. So Saturn now has to sort of bend to all of these Gemini planets and it's changing the structure of

the court because of it. Wow. That makes so much sense. It does. It really does when you lay it out like that. And it's so interesting when you said it entered at zero degrees and it all just pops off from there. Yeah.

And it gets more intense as we go. Oh yeah. Absolutely. It makes sense. Because you already mentioned on June 8th, 1692. My birthday. Ash's birthday. Again, I'm not saying Ash's birthday.

Justice for Josephine! Just kidding. That's when they did bring back an old Massachusetts law that was made obsolete by another law against hangings. They bring that back to allow execution by hanging now. So they were like, I know we got rid of that one. It's all. We miss it though. We're going to pull that back in here because why not? Yeah. And for them, they're like, no, this is actually,

this is, this is modernity. Yeah. Look at us. Look at us. Going into the future. Yes. And in this futuristic utopia, we recognize that the witches are among us and to protect our community, we got to be executing them left and right. We're the heroes. We're the heroes. Let's go. And I think, of course, you know, this is such a cautionary tale of what, how at any

point in time, something that then you look back and you're like, that's barbaric and bananas. Yep. At the moment felt really innovative and progressive. Like we're doing what we need to do to keep everyone safe. Yes, and I don't think that it was even,

looking at these charts, I don't think that there was even a consideration of the fact that they were doing something cruel and unusual. No. Wow. And you can tell they didn't feel that way. And it's interesting for me because, there's a different version of this story Wow. And you can tell they didn't feel that way. And it's interesting for me because, you know,

there's a different version of this story with planets in different signs, right? Where we might interpret more of that sort of like, they were getting freaky, you know? Like, they wanted to really do some, they wanted to be experimental. But like, this is really like, we think we're doing the right thing, we think we're being progressive, we want to collect all of the data. We want all of the information and we're going to be the leaders in the colony.

Yeah, we're going to show everyone else how to do things. Yes. And we're not going to have this issue again. It's going to go perfectly fine. Don't worry about it everyone. Yeah. Because it was literally only two days later on June 10th is when they had their first execution of Bridget Bishop. So they brought in this law and then they immediately put it into motion. They were like, well, two days later we can hang someone. Like crazy. Yeah.

And at this time we have that same sort of that motion, that movement towards Jupiter, Uranus, and that conjunction is, we're actually at the height of it. Jupiter is at three degrees, Uranus is at six degrees, they're only three degrees away from each other. Within the week, they're going to be forming that exact conjunction. Wow. Wild. And again, three days after that, so within that same time span, that's when the church, the Salem church,

excommunicated Rebecca Nurse, who was this like pious church going woman who everyone loved will get into her. Cause I have like a special place in my heart for Rebecca. Justice for Rebecca. Justice for Rebecca. But they excommunicated her in the same week.

So it's like when all that was going on, it was just going up and up and up. And again, probably thinking they're doing what they need to do to keep the church clean. Setting the new standard. Setting that new standard that you're going to be excommunicated if you are accused of this, which is so scary. And what we see in that case is that even though this very pious woman and community member who was very beloved was, you know, it was unfathomable to think that this person could be a witch because this data is being presented.

New types of evidence, new types of material that Gem and I like, I want to hear it, I want to hear it, I want to hear it, bring it, bring it. Unvetted, just give me it raw. Yes, unvetted. Which again, you know, and it's haunting for me because here I am, an astrologer, and it's once again an election year. And all I want to remind people is that with Jupiter and Gemini right now, make sure that

you are really looking at the sources. Vette your information. Yes. Do we know how to tell whether something is propaganda or not? Absolutely. So important. And it's the same thing here. The exact same except they were just letting it all through.

That's crazy. And especially, you know, we have these similar sort of parallels happening. I have no problem with AI. Like I'm not one of those people that thinks that AI is going to, maybe I should think it's going to take over more frankly, I don't know. You never know. But with all of that, it's right now being deemed as very innovative, right? It's being deemed as very progressive.

It feels very much the same. And we are collecting all of the data, right? And it's like this, we're giving all of the data to these different technologies that we don't really understand right now. And I'm just, you know, I just want to put that there. Yeah, I just want to let it sit. I just think about that. Let's all put it on the table.

Let's take a look. Yeah, I mean, but I don't know. Yeah, because it really is a very, I mean, it's a very much a parallel. Yes. It makes a lot of sense. It really does. Oh, it's I'm like, I mean, it's a very much a parallel. Yes, it makes a lot of sense. It really does. Oh, it's, I'm like, I have chills. I know.

And that was like a short period of time. That's like, you know, in June, like bam, bam, bam, they were just, they were getting this started. And it clearly a lot happens throughout the rest of the year, but we're going to bump it to September of 1692 because I think that's when things started shifting the other way. That's when we went through all the turmoil that had been clearly building up to a crescendo at this point. But in September of 1692, the court of oil and terminers stopped meeting because that's

when people started going, wait a second, what are we doing here? You're not hearing and determining anything. You're hearing everything and determining nothing. I'm really only determining one thing. It is interesting now that when you, when I hear you say that, as we're talking about hearing everything and determining nothing. And really only determining one thing. Everyone's a witch. We've got to change this. It is interesting now that when I hear you say that as we're talking about Gemini and Sag, the hearing and determining, I mean, I feel like that is the spirit of the Gemini

and Sagittarius access is hearing and determining. That's so crazy. Yeah. That's my big three. You're like, oh my God. But less determining, more hearing. More hearing everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unvetted, unfiltered.

Not enough Sag energy. Yes, we need more of the Sag. Saturn was in Sag, but it was being totally outnumbered by all of the Gemini. So now it's, but interestingly, at this time, that conjunction, we are sort of moving away from it, that conjunction between Jupiter and Uranus had happened. Jupiter is now at 20 degrees of Gemini.

So that stellium, that big, you know, if you, I'll show you guys the chart, but like it's in May, on May 27th, when those judges were appointed, it's like a massive amount of planets pooling in one area. By the time we get to mid-September, it's dissipated. There's no more stellium. It's all sort of broken up.

It's a much more, I don't wanna say, there's nothing abnormal about a stellium, but it's just a much more well-balanced chart. Yeah, that makes sense. And interestingly, Saturn has more agency and control again now in the chart. Because it's not being outnumbered by all of these, heavy duty Gemini placements that are sort of pulling at it

from the other direction. So now the loudest aspect is actually the aspect between Uranus and Saturn. Uranus is at nine degrees, it's going retrograde. Saturn is at six degrees Sagittarius. So we have a Uranus- Saturn. Uranus is at nine degrees, it's going retrograde. Saturn is at six degrees Sagittarius, so we have a Uranus-Saturn opposition. Saturn has more power. Saturn has more strength to be like,

what's going on here? Let's take a re-look at all of this. We need to stop hearing everything. Yes, more determining. More determining with facts. Also on this day, the moon was in Sagittarius as well. So the moon and Saturn were working together to be like, cut it. That's really interesting.

My dad's a moon. We love the moon. Oh yeah. Yeah, the moon comes through. So yes, I mean, it's definitely things are very, in a short amount of time, the sky is really different. Wow. And it makes, and it just, when you look at the events,

it just makes so much sense. It makes perfect sense. Building, building, building, and then it just kind of like slowly dissipates. Right. Because it does feel like it's suddenly slowly dissipates. That's exactly what happened. I mean, if you were to show me these charts

with no sort of events associated, I would be like, whoa. What happened there? What were we working up towards? Yeah. And then I would see the drop off. It slowly turned around. And you're like, oh. Everything's fine though.

Like, okay. What was going on there? What's that over there? That little one in the middle. Is everyone all right over there? I don't know which child. I made it out of that. And then the next thing,

and this kind of goes back to our governor Phipps, our friend governor Phipps over there, who apparently was, there was fortune in the sky when he became governor. On October 29th, 1692, that's when he, after the court stopped convening, he ordered a stop to any more arrests in the trial for witchcraft. He didn't want anyone else arrested for it. And he later would, in the following year, he later pardoned everybody remaining in jail.

So he did do his part to make sure everybody was let out. Yeah, just about six months after he stopped. But it began October 29th, 1692 is when he stopped the arrests. So no more witchcraft arrests were gonna happen. It's interesting, you know, obviously we know that this date is very close to Halloween. For me, you know, just spiritually, I think that that's really interesting

because that marks a, it's a threshold. You know, Halloween, October 31st is the halfway point between the autumn equinox and the winter solstice. And it's, you know, known to be the sort of transitional time. So I just think that it's interesting that that timing is sort of like so close to Halloween that we say like, this is enough. You know, like, this is spooky in the worst way. We're not gonna make this spooky anymore.

Yeah. The thing that stands out to me as we get into these, you know, the fall of the year, the fall of 1692, is that Pluto, the planet of transformation goes into Leo. So it's not in those late degrees of Cancer anymore. It shifts into a new zodiac sign. And again, as we talked about with Jupiter going into Gemini, when a planet goes into a new sign, it's really notable,

it's really big, it's really significant. Now, what's wild is that currently, Pluto is in the late degrees of Capricorn and is sort of teetering on Pluto going into Aquarius. These are the exact opposite sister signs of what was going on here. So cancer is the opposite of Capricorn, Leo is the opposite of Aquarius, Pluto was going through the last degrees of cancer into the early degrees of Leo during the Salem witch trials. It's currently in the last degrees of cancer into the early degrees of Leo during the Salem witch trials.

It's currently in the last degrees of Capricorn going into Aquarius. So we have this mirror image of that same turning point energy of that same sort of threshold. Who knew this was gonna be so topical for right now? I certainly didn't. Who could have known?

Wild. Wow. Seriously. So what that says to me and what we've been talking about as it relates to current events in astrology Who could have known? That's crazy. Wild. Wow. Seriously. So what that says to me and what we've been talking about as it relates to current events in astrology is being in a transitional time. Well, currently, as we are in the late degrees of Capricorn for Pluto, we're sort of seeing like, wow, something needs to give, right? We are reaching sort of a breaking point in our culture.

And it's like hard to exactly pinpoint what it is, but we know that it's just gotten very loud and very exhausting. You can see it in so many ways. It really has. Yes, and we're looking for something new. We're looking for change. And that's exactly what was happening at that time.

Pluto was entering Leo. It was saying, this has to be a new era. There has to be something new that we are exploring societally and culturally. So it doesn't surprise me that at the same time that Pluto is moving into this new zodiac sign, which by the way, it takes, it spends 20 years in a zodiac sign.

So it really drives a point home before leaving and entering something new is that we're saying like, actually, maybe this isn't the vibe. Yeah, turns out, you know, what, maybe we were super duper wrong here. And as you'll see, a lot of the people in this are just like, oh, yeah, that was not good. Yeah. So it's interesting to see that, and Pluto also was conjunct the south node of karma and past life at this moment. The nodes were in Leo and in Aquarius. So there is this sort of reckoning

that starts to happen, it feels like, by the fall, where we start to kind of have a different perspective on what we want our future to look like. And maybe it's like we have the, we are looking at what we had thought was going to be this utopia where we're getting rid of all the witches and it's, and then we realized like actually half of our community is in jail. Like, it's some of the judges, you know, own wives and children and sisters and what do we and mothers are being accused suddenly and they're going, wait a second.

Maybe not. I mean, they had a four year old in jail at one point. They had a four year old in jail with their mom and she was accused of witchcraft by Ann Putnam, by the way. Ann Putnam is the worst. We hate her. But she accused a four year old and they had a four year old sitting in jail for like a year and it's like somebody had to look at this and be like,

wait a second, is this the community? We really wanna have a community where we're throwing four-year-olds in the old Salem jail. This isn't what we were going for exactly. This is the utopia we were thinking it was gonna be. Yeah, exactly. So it totally makes sense. Speaking of Ann Putnam.

Speaking of Ann Putnam, this was just an interesting one to me because like I am so focused on how much I hate Ann Putnam. I love that you hate Ann Putnam, this was just an interesting one to me because like I am so focused on how much I hate Anne Putnam. I have such a grudge against Anne Putnam. So in August 25th, 1706, so many years after this or a few years at least, Anne Putnam finally says, well, maybe I made all that shit up. Oops, sorry. And she did this because she wanted to get into a church

and the church was not gonna let her unless she admitted all her sins. That was a pretty big sin. And I thought this was an interesting one. I'm curious, do you know if like, what did the church at that point say that they recognize that this was all a disaster? I think it was part of the reckoning of everybody saying that we realized that the intentions

might have been pure at some point, or what they think are pure. I think they also recognized that maybe they had a bunch of bored little girls on their hands and that these little girls took it too far and didn't know how to stop it. So I think they were giving her the opportunity to say, we'll pardon you for your sins, but you need to like come, have a come to Jesus moment and tell us that what you did was wrong

and that you knew it was wrong. And she obliged. And she did. She said she did it. She said she made it up and she was sorry for it. But it was all too late. I was like, oh. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

So at this time, a considerable amount of time later, over 10 years later, Saturn is now where Jupiter and Uranus were back then. So it's, Saturn has that perspective. It's now gone through half of the zodiac sign. And Saturn is, you know, it has to do with discipline, right? And our responsibilities and maturation. So it's almost like at that time, we all,

and you know, the chart of this moment was one where we had a different perspective on that Gemini craziness. Chaos. The chaos of Gemini. Yes. That makes sense.

That does, yeah. Because it's like she had, I mean, I'll give one little inch here and say, like, she had to have a little bit of a maturation here to like, at least know, I still think I was selfish. And I think it was a maturity to know that she wasn't going to get into this church if she didn't do what they asked her to do. But it makes sense that it has to do with Saturn. Yeah. It is officially vacation season. Whoa!

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pack. Use code morbid for 15% off your first purchase at lumideodorant.com. That's code In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little known British territory called Pitcairn and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10 that would still emerge. It just happens to all of them. I'm journalist Luke Jones and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn.

When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn trials I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific Island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery+, in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. And speaking of my enemy, Anne Putnam, we should take a look at at least a couple of the main accusers here, what their charts are, because I'm very curious about that. Anne Putnam is October 18th, 1679, and she was born in Danvers, Massachusetts. And she was really like the ringleader of all of this. Yeah, she really kept it going. She was the HBIC.

of all of this. Yeah, she really kept it going. She was the HBIC. Yeah. So, Anne is a Libra. You know, something that I want to, something I want to call out because it's, you know, it really is very loud in these charts is 25 degrees. There's a lot of planets at 25 degrees, which is just, you know, it's neither here nor there, but it's just an interesting pattern to see. Anne was, you know, a Libra, 25 degrees

Libra. She was actually born on a full moon. And not just a full moon. It was a lunar eclipse. So that's really compelling to me because when we have someone born on an eclipse, we know eclipses, they're really intense, they're loony, they're high energy, right? We see that even when we experience, when an eclipse crosses the United States and suddenly it's like the day stops, everyone's figuring out their eclipse plans, where are you going to be? You know, they are arresting, they capture our attention. Energetically, astrologically, this is also the case. When you're born on an eclipse, you have a sense of drama baked into your chart.

We were just talking about this the other day. Yeah. And there's a sort of extremism to you. People might see your life and be like, why is everything always so like feast or famine for you? Like, why is it like, why are the stakes always so high when you're born on an eclipse? And that's the case of Anne. She was born on an eclipse. Now she was also 12 years old when this started.

And she was born with Jupiter in Taurus. So she was going through her Jupiter return at that time. Which happens to all of us when we're 12 years old because Jupiter has a 12 year orbit. So she had this, she was born on an eclipse. She was going through her Jupiter return, a very lucky time. And believe it or not, I mean, the way that I would interpret this is that she was really, I mean, I guess this doesn't seem that surprising when I say it out loud, that she thought that

she was doing something really cool. Yeah, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. She thought that she was really participating in her community. She certainly was. I mean, she was making things happen. She was seeing results. She was making things happen.

I think she had an immense amount of power for a 12-year-old girl. And I do think there might be, I know that this is not, we're not Ann Stans here. So I mean, who would like Ann, right? She's clearly the villain. But I do think it's interesting how in this puritanical culture where women have no power, that these young girls had so much power. And they took it and ran with it.

Yes. And I also wonder if this is a byproduct of a really oppressive culture, you know? I definitely think that's a huge part of it. Yes. And I also wonder if this is a by-product of a really oppressive culture. Absolutely. I definitely think that's a huge part of it. I will give that for sure, because especially kids, kids were not, in this culture, in Puritan times, in Puritan culture,

it was, you didn't play, you didn't read, you didn't enjoy things, you were not to be a kid. It wasn't like the- You did not act like a kid. Like the scene in Not Heard, it was like, let me not see you. Let me not hear you. You will, you, you help out your family. You do your studying and that's it.

Yeah. And you shut up. Like you are not outside playing with things. You're not giggling with your friends. You are, you are seen as not even a little adult, like a little, you know, cult member, not really seen as anything. Yeah, not seen as anything. You're one of the many that needs to be doing this thing to get to the goal of whatever their goal was.

Right. And so I think seeing that it's kids who started this was very telling because it's like, they weren't doing anything else. What else were they doing? They had somewhere to apply their imagination. And a fantastical imagination. I mean, that's where the spectral evidence comes in. Some of the things they come up with.

I mean, it's like, like we said, you know, Anne was the one who accused, you know, a little Dorothy, also like Dorcas in the trial transcripts, the four-year-old. She said that, like, she came, she was like biting her in her sleep. Like she flew in her window and was biting her. And it's like, that is some fantastical shit. And it's kid shit. And I think they were just trying to be kids, but like they say in the craft, they took it to a dark place.

When you're a kid, you don't realize the serious repercussions that everything you're doing is going to have. And I think when they started seeing the repercussions, it was some of the, I think it was just either keep going or admit that you bullshitted everybody and now you're the one- And we can't do that.

Yeah, but it's also, I mean, it's the adults who are calling the shots. I mean, if these kids are saying, are recognizing that they have basically unchecked power now and that they have the freedom to be able to participate in these spaces and they're being taken seriously. They're validated. They're having the, it's like they're one-upping each other and like how like wild these images and these imaginations are and

then the adults are like very good. Tell us more. Yeah, keep going. It's like, well, I saw Rebecca Nurse in a rocking chair. And it's like, how far can you push it? So as much as I recognize that it's not good to accuse an entire community of witchcraft and kill them, I do think that it's obviously the adults who were responsible and the kids were just testing boundaries and also, I mean, pretty iconic for being becoming so famous as little Puritan kids. Yeah, like that's what that's how they were seeing it. Yeah, like where the Queens of the village. Yes. Yeah. And when we were talking about it earlier, the adults in the situation are really having the kids do their dirty work,

because they're after executing these people so they can take their land so they can get rid of a tax that they owe somebody. That's the thing. And the Putnam's especially are huge. They were the huge accusers and especially like Ann Putnam senior especially was she would direct Ann Putnam junior to do her dirty work. It was like that family was gaining a lot by making their kid do the dirty work for them. So you do have to give her a little bit of sympathy in that regard of like, you were brought into this.

Like you were just kind of raised to do this, which is sad. Yeah, doing your parents' bidding. Yeah. Like she's still an asshole, absolutely. But she was kind of made to be an asshole. Are we still gonna wear our fucking Putnam sweatshirts? Yeah.

But like she was made to be an asshole, you know? Like a lot of the cases we see where it's like, yeah, I feel bad for the kid, but this kid happened to get a lot of people killed. Exactly. There is something, I think, if we think about this karmically too, being born on a lunar eclipse means that the nodes of destiny and fate are right next to your sun and moon, which are some of the most sort of prominent placements in our charts. You know, we know our sun, moon and rising signs.

So her sun and moon are right directly connected to her sun is connected to the north node. Her moon and Aries is connected to the south node. These are karmic destiny points. And in addition to those placements being there, she also has Chiron, the wounded healer there. I mean, one could look at this and be like, yeah, it was horrible what happened to her that she then had to live with the guilt of having killed all of these innocent people. But in doing so exposed that, you know, this was not the utopia that they were

trying to create. And really like, I mean, massive changes in the court system coming out of the Salem witch trial. So it obviously is a tragedy to lose so many people to this, but it also, perhaps there was an inevitability to it. If this was the system, something bad was going to happen, right? And it was someone like Anne who sort of brought it to that tipping point to expose the injustices. So it was like a byproduct.

A byproduct. Very much so. Well, I think another one we could talk about, so Betty Paris and Abigail Williams are the other two I think we'll touch upon because they were the initial accusers. Yeah they were the big, I think they were called the Salem Three. Yeah they were definitely, so Betty Parris was November 28th, 1682 and she was born in Boston Massachusetts. But we don't claim her.

We do not. Understandable. Well, she was born during a new moon. So we have another very strong lunar energy here in this chart. She was also nine years old, right? Yeah, she was young. Really little. Nine years old is so young in life, but also astrologically that what was happening in

her chart at that time was like not that different from what was happening from when she was born. You know, like nine years is, you don't have that many transits having taken place. However, the transit you do have at exactly nine is you have your nodal opposition. So again, talking about the nodes of fate, she was born with her north node in Leo, her south node in Aquarius.

At that time, it was the opposite. So the south node was in Leo and the north node was in Aquarius. So at that, it was the opposite. So the South Node was in Leo and the North Node was in Aquarius. So at that moment, there was this turning point of like, what is my destiny gonna be? Believe it or not, the first time we encounter our destiny is when we're nine years old, according to the nodes. So, yeah.

Wow. And then it seems like she was then plucked away from the whole, she was like sent to live with family. You don't want to see what's gonna happen. I think her parents were like, you don't need to hang out with Ann anymore. So it's interesting that she sort of made her mark, this little Sag, new moon Sag, sun and moon and Sagittarius

going through her nodal opposition, did this thing and then was sort of removed from the scene. So she didn't actually have to be involved in the trials beyond that time. That makes sense. That is interesting. Because her dad was a big player in the town. Right.

Samuel Parris, I believe it is. He was a reverend. So he was, I think they were like, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't muddy our feet with this. Yeah, we want him to keep his job. So let's just, you did your job, let's get out of this. We want him to keep his job. So let's just, you did your job. Let's get out of here. Thanks, Betty.

And then Abigail is someone that we have another stellium with. So Abigail was born with venus in cancer, Saturn in cancer, Pluto in cancer, the sun in cancer, and Mercury in cancer. So as we- So emotional or girly? It's an emotional girly. Yes. And as we've talked about, when we have a stellium, a concentration of energy, it just is intense.

It's sort of everything is pooling in these places. So with all of this in cancer, it's like, cancer is associated with the mother. Cancer is associated with our home, with our family, with our values. So it does not surprise me that it was the sort of like, I'm doing this for the fam. I'm doing this- In our shared value system. In our shared value system.

And I would not be surprised if this was also coming from, you know, if this was being supported by her family. Oh yeah. Which I'm sure it was. And sort of encouraged by her family. That makes a lot of sense. That definitely does. It makes me feel kind of bad for them.

Only a little bit. I do, I would say that we can feel bad. I mean, it's interesting because there's like a whole other take on this where it's like, these were the witches, these little girls. Because what is a witch? I mean, it's usually women who are trying to figure out where their power is and to reclaim their power.

And these girls certainly figured out how to have a lot of fucking power in their community. Definitely. The most. The most power. So I mean, I think that having a fresh set of eyes on these little ladies is not the worst thing, but then definitely no remorse for the boys,

for the orchestrators who are on the trial. I mean, they have full frontal lobe, they know what they're doing. You're a grown ass man. No excuse for you. No excuses. What are you doing? And actually that's where we'll go next.

Speaking of. Is to these idiots. The first one I could think of was John Hawthorne. Big player. This guy's so bad that like his ancestor, Nathaniel Hawthorne added a W to his name to not be associated with him. Wow. That's how you know it's bad.

That's the lore. So that's how bad he is. He was one of the most active judges during the trials. He was known to be super aggressive. He forced confessions in ways that would be very unseemly, even by those standards. He was super, super religious. And so he took this whole thing even more seriously than a lot of the other ones did. He was the one to condemn Reverend George Burroughs to death, which is very interesting that a very religious man would condemn a reverend to death. He also never showed remorse,

even after the trials were done, never apologized, never said that he was wrong in anything he did. He ended up dying at the age of 76. He's buried in that old Burying Point Cemetery on Charter Street in Salem. So that's an interesting grave to visit. It's chilling.

It's a very chilling grave. But yeah, he's one of the worst for sure. Well, I would, it's surprise anyone to find out that he is a Leo. Oh, no. There it is. So John was born on August 5th, making him a Leo son. He also has a moon in Leo. So he was born on a new moon.

And again, we're seeing definitely enough of these charts that have an interesting lunar signature to know that these individuals were born during these prominent lunar phases, a lot of them were. And it's not being born on an eclipse, which is the most magnified version of it, but being born on a new moon is also, there's a significant sort of energy associated with that.

And in the sign of Leo, if this is done poorly, we have a very egoic gentleman on our hands. That's shocking. Moon in Leo, sun in Leo, Mars in Leo. And at the time, this would again have been conjunct at the same point as the South node in Leo, which is one of those destiny points. And it's, you know, it's sort of the dark side of destiny, right? It's the destiny to be remembered as an egoic monster in the case of John. Well, that worked. Yeah.

That's John. And also to feel the sense of, Leo can be very stubborn, you know, very resolute. It's a fixed sign. So it believes what it believes and it believes that it's right. That's why you never apologize. Never apologize.

And it doesn't surprise me that this, you know, there was this sort of vengeance for the reverend, you know? And this sort of like, I'm not afraid to take down a religious figure because I know best. To show my point that I'm right. Yes. And to be bigger and higher than, you know? Because that is its own sort of egoic expression is to be like, see, you all thought that this was a

pious individual, but I as a judge am above this alleged pious individual and I say they're a witch. Wow. And I know better. Yeah. That's fascinating. That is fascinating. Don't get wrapped up with the leon.

John's the worst. But the next one we have is a lot of of people know this name too, Cotton Mather. How could you not know the name? How could you not remember this? And his dad increased. That's what you'll remember. You have to remember Cotton. Yeah, you got it.

We remember Cotton Weary too, from the stream. Yeah, always. But he was a Puritan minister. He actually studied another outbreak of hysteria. It was the Goodwin family in Boston, Massachusetts, and he wrote about it. He loved to write about this stuff. And he blamed it on the devil. And he mentioned in these writings that Salem was the devil's playground is what he believed. Which is awesome.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds so metal. So metal. Like so metal. We love Salem. If I was in Salem at that time, I'd be like, hell yeah. Like let's, and also like leave us alone because we're the devil's playground. Don't mess with us. But a lot of people think that was part of the seed that was planted to at least start some rumblings

in Salem with hysteria. But in the letter that he wrote to the justices, he was one of those people who said, spectral evidence is bullshit. You shouldn't use it. You shouldn't use it in these trials. I don't think it should be used as like real evidence. But in that same letter, he also urged them to continue trying to suss out witches in Salem. So he was saying, don't

use spectral evidence, but like you're doing the Lord's word. Keep going. And he was also the one who said that, bringing back to Reverend George Burroughs, that poor guy, he was also the one who said that, bringing you back to Reverend George Burroughs, that poor guy, he was the one who said that no witch would be able to say the Lord's Prayer perfectly, they were gonna stumble on it, they would forget it, they wouldn't be able to say the whole thing. That's the tell.

That's the tell. If they can do that, they are not a witch and you should not condemn them. Well, Reverend George Burroughs recited that Lord's Prayer perfectly without stumbling, without muttering anything on the gallows. Cod Mather was there and he said, eh, it's fine. I guess in this case, it's whatever.

He's a reverend. You know what? We're already here. So let's just go through it. And it's like, what the fuck? What a contradiction. And he actually later claimed that Reverend George Burroughs was the king of all witches. He used that phrase and basically said later, you know what, spectral evidence, it was actually

fine. It was fine that they used it. And the whole thing was justified to some degree. We're all fine. He was basically a whiny little bitch and he stood for nothing. Like that man stood for nothing. You just stood for spectral evidence. The wind blew and he would blow over here with it.

Like, he was the worst. Well, a few things that are really interesting. So, we have another stellium here in his chart. He has an Aquarius stellium. So, this is Aquarius is the opposite sign of Leo. So, again, we're still on those nodes, which were going on at this time in the signs of Leo in Aquarius. So he's being really activated by them.

He has Chiron in Aquarius, Uranus in Aquarius, Mars in Aquarius, the Sun in Aquarius, and Mercury in Aquarius. So once again, we see someone who has a lot of a lot. It's a lot of a lot. And I would say most compelling to me is that he was going through his Saturn return during this time. Interesting.

So he was pretty young. He was young. He was. And the Saturn return is when we go through it in our late 20s and early 30s. I'm so scared. Buckle up, baby. I know. Careful of that spectral evidence.

I know. up, baby. Careful of that spectral evidence. And it's when we become our own person. And it's often a very challenging and complicated time. And what I, you know, I'm probably jumping ahead, spoiler alert, he was the son of increase Mathers. Coolest name. Coolest name. That is such a cool name. What a duo. Cotton and increase. But I think that what's really interesting about this is that we have,

and we'll talk about increases role within this as well. We have Cotton, the son, trying to figure out what he stands for and what his place is and what his role in this greater sort of ecosystem is. So it doesn't surprise me that as he's going through his Saturn return, he's like, well, a little bit of this, but also that, you know, this makes sense. Whatever works. And now I'm going to get into sort of my intuitive read on it for a moment. Looking at the chart is that I think that he got over his head

in what was happening. Oh, for sure. And because he was, he comes into this kind of as an academic, you know? Absolutely. And, but then he's swept up in this town. I mean, it would be an interesting biopic, certainly. He's swept up in this town,

and then it's like, it's all happening, you know? Like they're dying. These people are being hung. We have people being tortured. It's like, what a scene. And he's trying to figure out, is this what it's about? Is this what we should be doing? Is this why we did this? What are the limits and what are the boundaries? And I think that as people are dying, it's like, well, I have to justify this. I have to make sense of this tragedy. So yeah, I mean, he's the king of witches. That's why he can say the Lord's Prayer so easily is because the devil is speaking right through him and the devil is a trickster. So of course, in this case, this is an exception to the rule.

But I think that this is the chart of someone who is really trying to figure out, you know, who he is and what his place is in society and how he can be the most useful and how to sort of bring these pieces together. Another thing that's interesting is that he was born during the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. That's a 20-year cycle that happens every 20 years. So it's an important, it's a meaning, it's one of the signatures that happened during 2020, the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. So Jupiter makes things bigger,

Saturn makes things disciplined. So he's trying to figure out, how am I going to be this sort of voice, how am I going to be the this sort of voice, you know, how am I going to be the smartest one in the room? Yep. I think is cotton. He's got that vibe for sure. He does.

How can I be this? And it's also very Aquarius, you know, like you, if you've ever met an Aquarius, you know that they also love to be right. They love to be intelligent. So it's, it has that sort of like, yeah, I know what I'm talking about. And he's like, Oh, I can explain. I can explain this. I know you're all you all think you know, but I can explain this.

Listen to me. Listen to cotton. Listen to cotton. 100% cotton. But don't. 100% cotton. That almost went over my head. I was so close. You're like, what?

So the next one we have, this isn't like a huge, he's a big player because he's one of the seven judges. And I think what is of note about Bartholomew Gedney is one, his name. Yeah, definitely that. And he's got an interesting grave in the cemetery as well. And he was one of the shitty judges. And he also was one of the ones who fiercely advocated to use spectral evidence, which I always think means that you are one of the worst.

Cause I'm like, if you are allowing children to say that somebody flew in a bit their knees in the middle of the night, then like something's wrong with you. You're a little kooky. And he also condemned his own friends. Like he would- Like turn his back on people. Like his friends would be like, you's wrong with you. You're a little kooky. And he also condemned his own friends. Like, he would... Like, turn this back on people. Like, his friends would be like, you know me, Bart.

And he'd be like, I guess I don't. Like, I'm your friend, and he'd be like, I guess I didn't. I guess I didn't know you. And it's like, whoa! Like, he has no loyalty. Would you be surprised to find out? Well, let me ask you. I hear a lot of hearing, which we know now is the Gemini stellium,

and Bardi was a Gemini. No! Sorry. Oh, Bart Bart is a Gemini. June 14, 1640. See him turning on his friends doesn't give us a good rep. No, it doesn't. He's like, I guess I didn't know you at all.

But it doesn't, you know, I think it makes sense for as we are sort of creating the archetype for the Gemini stellium energy of this time period, right? It's like, give me the most. And in his case, he was like, you're my friend, whatever. Like, come on in to the to the freaky trial world and like, let's spill. What's the tea? What do you have? Oh, people are flying in and biting. Interesting, interesting. I like that one. Love that one. Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was like the wackier the better. And I think that that's why he was into spectral evidence

is because he liked the sort of the entertainment of it. That makes sense for Bart. That makes a lot of sense. I feel that for Bart. I love entertainment, so I get it. Bart was just here for the lols. Like he was just like, same. This is interesting.

Like why not? Yeah, it was like go on. Yeah, he was like, please tell me more. Like he was just like, same. This is interesting. Like, why not? Yeah, I was like, go on. Yeah, he's like, please tell me more. Please tell me more what happened. It would be interesting to read his entries in this giant Bible, because it's probably like, and then. Yes. He said that this happened.

But wait, let me tell you more. Yeah, exactly. You'll never believe this one. I think that sort of like, you know, one of the overarching lessons around this was that actually it turns out morality is a good thing, right? It certainly is. When you know someone's character, that actually should be considered when you are bringing

them in and to an accusation, right? That's why we have character witnesses. Right. It's important to understand who someone is. But in this trial, all of that was out the window because it was really just the hearsay. Yeah, people were accusing their own spouses. Right, and that was being regarded, that was being taken into more regard than someone's

character. Yeah, someone you've known forever. Forever, right. Are you in trouble with the law? Need a lawyer who'll fight like hell to keep you out of jail? We defend and we fight just like you'd want your own children defended. Whether you're facing a drug charge, caught up on a murder rap, accused of committing war crimes, look no further than Paul Bergrin. All the big guys go to Bergrin because he gets everybody off.

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In order to win at all costs. If Paul asked you to do something, it wasn't a request. It was an order. I'm your host Brandon James Jenkins. Follow Criminal Attorney on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Criminal Attorney early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Well, one of the worst ones, I would say, it's definitely the Corwin family.

Yeah, they popped off. A lot of people know the Witch House in Salem. That's the Jonathan Corwin house. He actually, there was so many, quote unquote, witches being brought in to be examined during this time, because now they're picking everybody. We hear about the ones who died at the gallows, but there's so many who died in jail. There's so many who were put in jail and somehow got out of it. But there's a lot of victims here. So many people were being accused that he opened up, you know,

he's so friendly and loving and cosy. So accommodating. He opened up his home and said, Oh, I can conduct examinations in here. So gracious. We're so busy. Like I'm here to help. And there's some like crazy stories about him in that house. And he would also undertake the examinations himself, which is a whole different vibe. Very pervy energy. Very pervy energy.

I don't like it. The energy in that house is messed up. It's gnarly. Yeah, it's dark energy. And a lot of his family was embroiled in the whole accusing process. A lot of his children were, quote unquote, afflicted at times. So that was a whole thing. And he never apologized for his role in the whole accusing process. A lot of his children were quote unquote afflicted at times. So that was a whole thing. And he never apologized for his role in the trials either.

He was one of the ones that stood by and said, nope, it was right. What's interesting is that as we're talking about this, there's a, what I'm sort of noting is that as you're mentioning these different judges who never apologized, it's a lot of fix signs. So we met the Leo, yeah, we met the Aquarius and here we have the Scorpio.

So we have another stellium here with Jonathan Corwin. This one is in Scorpio. So we have Uranus in Scorpio, we have the North Node in Scorpio, Mercury in Scorpio, the Sun in Scorpio, and Neptune in Scorpio. So again, Aestellium is a lot. Now we haven't talked about Scorpio a lot, which I think it would be surprising for a lot of people because Scorpio is the zodiac sign that is so witchy and so sort of associated

with the occult and sort of underworld things. It's signified through Pluto, which we have talked about, but Scorpio has been sort of low-key in the background throughout most of these charts, which is interesting, and it does show me that, again, this whole trial was more of the Gemini information, like I want to collect the knowledge than it was the Scorpio, like, ooh, like let me get into the sort of the mysteries of it.

But in the case of Jonathan Corwin's chart, he was about that. He wanted to get up in there. And I don't want to, I'm not typecasting all Scorpios as being perverts, but it is a little pervy. It is associated with like the genitals and like the, you know, the private parts and sex and all of that. So in the context of this, yeah, this is probably someone who is being a little gross, you know, a little sexually deviant around

this and using this as an opportunity to like, you know, make that easier. Yeah. Gross. I definitely think was a thing. Absolutely. Oh, gross, Jonathan. Well, moving on from him. Well, and we're staying in the family.

Which I think is one of the worst in the whole thing. George Corwin, he was, he has an interesting birthday too. His birthday is February 26th, 1666. Scary. Right. So he has the triple six in there and he's talking about everybody else being Britannic. Come on. Check your birth year, my friend. Check your birth year. He was compensating.

So he was only 25 years old, which blows my mind at this point, because I'm like, you're a baby. Like you're a baby. Shut up. Go figure out your life. Not even at the Saturn return. Like what are you doing? Like ruining everyone's life.

He was the high sheriff during the witch trials. He was also the nephew of Jonathan Corwin. So that family blood runs deep. He was known very much. He was very aggressive. He confiscated a lot of shit from people when he would arrest them. Like that was his favorite thing to do was just steal all your shit when he arrested you.

It was like a treasure hunt for him. Yeah, and it was like, there was certain, like this was part of the time period too, where like, you know, they would confiscate things from you when they arrested you to pay for your jail sentence, essentially in your trial. They could confiscate your land, all that, but he would do it willy nilly. He was known to just steal everybody's stuff.

He was there for a lot of the executions. He was there when Bridget Bishop, the first victim, was hanged. And she was forced to climb a ladder when she was hanged. It was just like a different thing. He was the one who kicked the ladder out from underneath her. He then left her body in a rock crevice after that, just threw her in a rock crevice and just as an example. What's also interested is he left her body in that rock crevice at the site. And then he reported, he had to write out a report for this and he crossed out the words buried in place when he did this, which is like snakey.

Yeah, that's weird. He literally intentionally was like, I'm going to leave out what I actually did. I'm just going to cross it out. And I was like, that is so shady. It is very shady. Yeah. And he is infamous for being the one that tortured Giles Corey with weight

until he was crushed to death. At one point, we covered this when we talked about the witch Giles, Giles Corey was, I mean, it was like days, two days of him being pressed to death. So at one point the weight was so severe that his tongue protruded out of his mouth just on weight alone.

And it was George Corwin who grabbed a walking stick from somebody who was watching this whole thing. Because remember people would just watch this. They would just watch this man be pressed to death for this old man be pressed to death for two days. Grabbed someone's walking stick and poked his tongue back in his mouth with it. Which to me is like ruthless as fuck. Like that's like serial killer vibe. Yeah, totally. But Giles Corey, as we know, did not enter a plea.

He said, fuck y'all. And he didn't do it. And instead he cursed George Corwin and all of Salem. Which worked. And he cursed so that we have seen, so George Corwin died of a heart attack at age 30, five years after this. And since 1692, Salem sheriffs have all died of heart conditions at very early ages or

suffered from heart conditions at very early ages. And it only stopped after they moved the sheriff's department from the old jail. Right. Because before it was overlooking the... Yeah, it was like overlooking some... Burial grounds? I believe, I'm not positive about that, but it was, I just know that it was like Cahill is one of the sources that is a really, that his book is really good about this.

He mentioned he was one of the sheriffs. He mentioned that he suffered from heart issues when he was sheriff. And he's like, it is a curse. It's for real, for real. And George Corwin had taken so much stuff from people when he was arresting them that Aline was actually placed on his body when he died, that it was not released back to his family to be buried until his family paid for his shit. They said back at you. So he got his hand for sure, but he's one of the worst. So what's he all about? So it's interesting because he, well, is a Pisces.

And I think that that would really surprise people because usually Pisces are considered to be sort of like harmless, mystic, sensitive, emotional, intense people. But in this case, I mean, this is why you have sort of, you know, you can't, you really shouldn't be stereotyping the science because there's so much dimensionality to them. He was born with the sun conjunct Jupiter in his chart. And we've talked about

Jupiter making anything bigger and more expansive and sort of like larger than life. So the sun and Jupiter were in Pisces when he was born. And as well remember, during the Salem witch trials, Neptune was in Pisces. So it was almost like he was operating in this fantasy land himself. Like he sort of went with the, he went with this mass hysteria and like ran with it

as part of his identity. He was playing a role within this whole elaborate tragedy as someone as- Oh yeah, he's the high sheriff. Yes, exactly. As sort of like the boss, as the one who was ruthless, as the one who had no patience for witches, you know? Like he would do, he hated witches and would do anything to make sure that they were never coming back again.

And it was also, you know, it's interesting that he was pre-Saturn return. To me, that also is very compelling. It really shows that he was also trying to prove his manhood. You know, and there was this heavy compensating is that he was also trying to prove his manhood. You know, and there was this heavy compensating for being so young and having so much power. And it almost feels like it's a higher octave

of how the girls were behaving at that time. You know, it's like when you're that young and you have so much power and you're responsible for such brutality, it's like you have to kind of go all in. You obviously don't have to and you shouldn't. Listen, please don't go all in. But he committed to that role that he was playing.

And he was being sort of egged on by the hysteria so much so that he thought he could get away with it. Right? He thought he could get away with it. Right? Like he thought he could get away with that kind of force. He thought he could get away with stealing all of these possessions. And obviously, so young that didn't realize, like, actually, no. When you die young from this heart condition after this curse, because you were so bad that you have a curse on you now, that you're not even going to be regarded,

you know, there's gonna be a lien on your body because people are gonna recognize that you were a shithead. Yeah, they're gonna be like, we're not even giving your body to your family. Yes, because it was actually completely out of line what you did. I mean, this is why, you know, when you have such young people

who are responsible for acting out in these ways, it's like you're going to see, oftentimes the most fierce and evil ones are the ones who are the youngest involved, you know? And also frontal lobe. Right. That's a huge part of it. That plays a huge role too.

Definitely. That is interesting. Another one that I'm interested, this is like a, I'm just interested in this one cause he's a little bit of an outlier, Samuel Sewell. So he was a judge. He was one of the ones that later publicly apologized. He even called for a day of fasting and penance to, for reparation

of what happened. And he himself observed that day privately for the rest of his life. Like he was very much a, I thought I was doing what was right. I did not do what was right. And it was literally like, he was like, I know that that wasn't right. I thought it was right at the time. Right. Yeah. And he's an Aries. We haven't talked about Aries yet. He was born conjunct to the North node of destiny, his son. So again, we're seeing that as an interesting signature coming up. A lot of these nodes of fate are involved in the individuals who are associated with

this, which to me just really exposes like, yeah, these are all people who have legacies now that are sort of surrounding this really historic event and this historic series of events that took place. What I find really interesting in his chart is that his Mercury, the planet of communication, is in the sign of Pisces. Again, we were talking about Neptune, the planet of illusion and delusion being in Pisces. So at the time of these trials,

the way that he was thinking, Mercury rules communication, it rules our mind, the way that we process information, was being really heavily influenced by this Neptunian fantasy world. So it's like, as this was going on and people were presenting all of this freaky, spectral evidence He was like, I guess so. Yeah, I guess I guess it's real

I guess these girls are coming in talking about people flying in through windows like whoo Something to it. Something to it. Something weird. And then after that transit had lifted after he was no longer, you know, as time went on and he had perspective and he had, there was distance from what took place, you know, as the chart sort of separated and opened up as we saw, he then had more perspective to be like, whoa, I was under a spell.

And I think that if, I think that he would have said something quite like that, that he himself was hypnotized by what had happened. Yeah, but like the real, the real spell was happening in the judicial system. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's so interesting because with all of these, we see the story of, you know, of spells and witches and of persecution. And it's just all sort of not what they thought it was,

but it's all there. The underbelly was being exposed, but it wasn't Rebecca Nurse. It was them, it was themselves. It was the whole society. I mean, he proved it with the like privately doing that day of reparations, like because he felt so guilty,

like he had guilt for the rest of his life. And he's one of the only ones who would admit that. Right. Which is huge. And he's the only Aries. Yeah, that's interesting. Is Aries a fixed sign? No, it is not.

It's a cardinal sign. So that's interesting that he's the one not a fixed sign and he can actually admit that he was wrong where the fixed signs could not. Well, what's interesting is, you know, my girl, not my girl, let me rephrase that. But Anne, who I think we all need a fresh perspective on, has her moon in Aries and is herself a Libra sun, which is the opposite of Aries. So those cardinal placements seem to be, which, you

know, Capricorn is a cardinal sign, seem to have some, you know, they're the ones who are coming in with a little bit more remorse. That's interesting. That does make sense. Maybe we should round this out by talking about a couple of the victims that everybody probably knows like the most. Yeah, definitely Giles Corey. Giles Corey.

We know that he was pressed to death because he wouldn't enter a plea. Because if you entered a plea, because if you entered a plea, you could have your land taken away and all your belongings from George Corwin essentially. So instead of allowing that to happen and leaving his family without anything, he decided not to. He had two days of being pressed to death. And the only thing he responded when George Corwin tried to get anything from him was

more weight. And then he ended up dying. His curse was, damn you, Sheriff, I curse you and Salem. And that's the curse that seems to have gone all the way through. I think that worked. Yeah, I think so too. But he's one that everybody knows about. He had like, he was a wealthy farmer in the town. So and he, he didn't have like,

He wasn't super well liked. He had a moment, I would say. He had a reputation of being a little aggressive, a little violent, a little angry. He was charged with murdering his farm hand in 1676. So it's not like he was like coming out of the scum. Yeah, not scum free at all. He had a little come up in Sydney and... He had some blood on his hands. He definitely did. But he was, he was found guilty. He only got a fine for it.

A lot of people were mad about that and thought he should have gotten more for that. And people think that might have played into him being accused. So he was born August 16th, 1611 in the UK. So we are back with a Leo. Back with a Leo. So we had talked about the Leo as being, you know, of the ego, right? We had mentioned that with one of the judges, is that when we have this Leo energy of this being sort of like egoic, I have more, I know more, I could be higher than whoever.

And I think that that also, you know, this is the only person in the Salem Witch Trials who was pressed to death. And this is also the only person who was like, I'm not gonna play by your fucking rules. Like if you wanna kill me, you're gonna have to do it in this other way where you're gonna have to get creative. And also like it's gonna be disgusting.

Like it's gonna be a really gross scene for you and all the villagers. So that's very Leo. Change it up for me. Yeah, do it special for me. Mercury in Leo, Jupiter in Leo, sun in Leo. So again, that Jupiter, sun conjunction coming up as a signature here in a lot of these charts,

which is just this larger than life energy. To me, it doesn't surprise me that there is, in his own way, if he was gonna go down, he wanted to do it on his terms. Yeah. And not speaking to whether or not he was a good person or was not a good person, obviously it sounds like he was a complicated, aggressive, fiery man.

Complicated man. Yeah. It is interesting that when it came to his death It sounds like he was a complicated, aggressive, fiery man. It is interesting that when it came to his death and his legacy, that it is sort of a standout, a notable death within this because he wanted to maintain a sense of his dignity in it. And that was his way of doing it. That makes a lot of sense. And for him, that was his way of doing it. That makes a lot of sense. And cursing, right? And doing a really iconic curse that went on for centuries.

Yeah. I mean, who's the real witch? I know. Well, I was just going to say, do you see anything witchy in his chart whatsoever that would give credence to the curse? Well, you know, the thing that I would say stands out to me in addition to him, of course, being a Leo and having that Jupiter-Sun conjunction is that he has his North node in Gemini and Uranus in Gemini in his chart because he was significantly older. He was in his 80s. Yeah, he was a lot older.

He was going through his Uranus return at that time, which happens if you live long enough, if you get into your eighties, you go through your Uranus return, which happens at 84. And he was 81. He was just a few years shy of his exact Uranus return. But he was going, your Uranus return is when you, because Uranus is the planet of revolution and rebellion.

So when you go through that, you really just say like, -"Caution to the wolves." -"Yeah, I don't give any fucks at all anymore." -"I love that. Big sense." -"You know, I'm doing it my way." And I think that to flip this on its head, right, to be like, you're calling me a witch, you're killing me for this, I'm going to curse you. -"I'm going to show you what a witch is." -"Yeah, show you." Like, there's something so sassy about that.

And so poetic. Something poetic, vindictive, powerful. All of the above. It's reclaiming one's agency. And I personally think that anyone can put a curse on someone. I don't think you have to be a witch to do curses. I think that it's just your intention and where you sort of apply it. In this case, it sounds like it was a very well warranted

time for a curse. It's a very specific curse too. Well deserved curse. Truly. The next one I would say is Rebecca Nurse, just because that's my girl. We know Rebecca Nurse, she was beloved. They did the petition to try to get her out of it.

They found her not guilty, but then our girlies, their afflicted girlies threw themselves on the ground in the courtroom and got her said to be guilty again. And actually she was feuding with the Putnam family over border boundaries, which they think had a lot to do with it. And she also disapproved of the appointment of Samuel Parris as the new Puritan minister. So there was a lot of people that were not pleased with her that were very powerful and

happened to be accusers. I mean, what I noticed in this chart initially is that this woman was almost 100 years old. Oh my God. And she was like ailing too. She was, yeah, she was born in 1598. So she was, you know, she was in her nineties and then getting wrapped up in all of this. And the energy from that to me is so cautionary

and is so a mirror, you know, when you have someone who is that old and ailing and who is so beloved within your community, and then you turn against this individual who is just like this helpless old woman, it's like, what are you really doing here? What's the goal here? What are we pulling? People love her.

She was pious. She was like a church going woman. She was doing everything they said they wanted everybody to do. And I think that some of the things that are interesting to me in this is that she was going through her Jupiter return. In fact, it was exact. Jupiter was in her chart in Gemini at six degrees.

That's where the conjunction between Jupiter and Uranus happened. So to me, like I have goosebumps because this woman was the symbol of like, we have gone too far. And this was it. Yeah, a lot of people saw that too. And I think that, you know,

we have those two sort of events that took place, right? We have, or, you know, that May 27th date is really stand out to me in terms of when things went haywire. And then when Rebecca Nurse was accused and everything that we knew about this old 92 year old woman was just like completely, you know, overlooked for the sake of hearsay, this would and her Jupiter was right at that point of Jupiter Uranus conjunction, which defines these witch trials, this was like the, what have you done?

You know, like, what are you actually doing here? And how do we go on from here? How do we go from here? Right. Because you did it, you know, you executed Rebecca Nurse. Yeah. Great. So what now?

What now? And like, and if you did this, then what else will you do? Right. Right. No one is safe. That's my girl, Rebecca. I love her. Pour one out for Rebecca.

Pour one out for Rebecca. I mean, I also think that like it's an interesting, you know, it's interesting that that breaking point was a 92 year old woman. You know, it's interesting that that was sort of, not the four year old who is in jail, but like this 92 year old woman was enough for people to be like, wait, what? At least start thinking like, wait a second. Yeah. Something is weird because how could someone live 92 years and be such a, you know, a loving member of our community and participate so much and be someone that we all revere and

respect only to be a witch? Yeah. Right? Like this doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. In the flip flop of the trial, like finding her not guilty and then being like, oh, the only to be a witch. Yeah. Right? Like this doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. In the flip flop of the trial, like finding her not guilty and then being like, oh, the girlies are angry.

The girlies, yeah. It's like, what are we doing? Right. What's going on? We're just giving into tantrums. Right. I think the last person we should focus on is somebody that probably everybody knows. We were talking about this earlier, the Crucible.

It's going to come. It's the perfect place to end. It's John Proctor. I mean, why is the perfect place to end. It's John Proctor. I mean, why is he always hot and everything? It's John Proctor. You know him, you love him, you want to date him. He's hot. Like, why do we just know?

I mean, he was a wealthy farmer, right? He was a wealthy farmer, so he's got that going with... He was also a very outspoken critic of the Salem Witch Trials from the jump. He got a little aggressive with it. He said he would whip or beat the afflicted girls. He didn't do it, but he would threaten to do it because he was so disgusted by them. Not great.

His wife, Elizabeth Proctor, was arrested on charges of witchcraft. That's when they turned on him. He actually knew, he recognized that this is mass hysteria and something's wrong here. Big time. He wrote a letter to the Boston clergy asking them to intervene and move the trials to Boston mass hysteria and something's wrong here. He wrote a letter to the Boston clergy asking

them to intervene and move the trials to Boston. Cause he was like, it's not happening here. Like Salem's losing their goddamn minds. Bring it to Boston. Bring some law. Bring it to Boston. We got to get a grip on things. We'll figure it out. The clergy actually was like, yeah, that's, that seems to be the case. But when they answered, it was too late. He was already executed. So John the hottie. John the hot one. John the hot one of the whole trial is a Libra.

A Libra. See, Mikey, there you go. Look at that redemption. Exactly. So, you know, Anne Putnam, a Libra. Yeah. But John Proctor, a Libra. Yeah.

But also, I mean, I do think it's interesting that when we talk about the cardinal signs having this sort of interesting awareness of what's going on in this, they weren't in the mix. They weren't being as influenced by this immutable Gemini, Sag, Piscean energy, or had this sort of stubbornness that we see with the fix signs, right, throughout it.

John Proctor, as a Libra, was sort of like, okay, like, what is fair here, right? Libra is the sign of the scales, it's associated with balance, it's associated with sort of harmony and equity. So we have this Libra Sun coming in and being like, wait, none of this makes sense. This is not a fair system, This is not a fair trial.

Like we're not doing this. We're not approaching this correctly. And I think that even though it's T that he said that he's gonna whip the girls, like I get where he's coming from with it. He was pissed and he was also showing like, they don't have that much power. Like stop treating them like saints.

Stop treating them like they are not anything more than children, right? Because I'm sure that in Puritan kids were being whipped all the time. So they were like, do what we always do. Exactly. So treat them like kids. Don't treat them like they are the ones who have all of this insight and who can dictate the fate of our community members. So in saying something as sort of aggressive as that, I think that the message was like,

let's get some logic back in here. Like, hello, like Mugatu, am I taking crazy pills? You know? So in the chart, it's an interesting chart in that we have a lot of sort of planets, there's a lot of clusters going on. So we don't have a stellium, but for instance, we have Pluto and Jupiter that are connected.

We have Mars and Saturn that are connected. And I think that there is this sort of like, this recognition of, yeah, this doesn't look like someone who is not strict to me. You know, this some, John Proctor also played by the rules. So he was not not like, he was not a wild child. But he also saw, he also saw someone here who, you know, he saw a system that was absolutely falling apart. He saw the collapse of his community. And that's, I think, what he was calling out.

I don't think he was saying, I don't think that witches are real, aren't real. I think that this could be legit, but the way that you all are approaching it is nuts. And he sought out to help, to fix it. He looked outside and was like, someone come, put some logic back into this whole thing. Yes. And that's really what he was sort of seeking was like, we have to turn this down. Bring the rules back. Bring the rules back. I want rules, but I don't want these wackadoo rules because these aren't rules. This is chaos. Yeah. Which is what it ended up degrading to.

Exactly. Wow. Wow. So no wonder he's hot. So no wonder he's always hot in all the things. Exactly. It's just like Canon, you have to make him hot in everything he does. Yeah, you do. It's so funny.

It's the way it is. This was fascinating. I could do this for like 18 hours. 100%. I could just sit here and be like, and what about this person? Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting. And I think that to bring it back to how we started, like, all of these planets and all of these different placements

didn't necessarily need to manifest like this. But it's interesting to have the storyline and to know, you know, who these individuals were, what these events were, what, how did this all take shape? And then how does, what, how did the planets support that? How were they leaning into these different attributes? What mechanisms were there to send them into? And often the worst versions of them.

It's so true. And now with the sky looking so similar, what can we do now? I was gonna say everybody's gotta like, everybody hold on tight and make good choices. Yeah, exactly. And I think that it's such a cautionary tale and it continues to be a cautionary tale of mob mentality.

Yes. Oh yeah. Anytime, always. And what to do and we constantly are battling this. We're constantly battling like mass cancellations of people and just like, you know, all rumors and social media, the swirling of social media. And to me it's like, yeah, of course Jupiter is in Gemini. Yeah, it makes sense.

You know, of course we have to navigate the same types of conditions. Wow. It's just that we're approaching it, you know, we have different tools. In a different age. Yeah, in a different age. That makes so much sense. Instead of just meeting by like the town water pit, you're meeting on social media. Exactly.

Talking about someone. Right. But like a mass cancellation without any evidence to back it up to me feels like watching, you know, Giles Corey get pressed. Exactly. It really does. And who's sticking the tongue back in the mouth. Don't be disgusting. Yeah.

Don't be that person. Check yourself. Don't stick the tongue back in the mouth. Yes. Don't be George Corwin. Never be a George Corwin. That's the moral of this story. Never be a George Corwin. That's the moral of this story. Never be a George Corwin.

Yeah. Maybe be somewhat of a Giles Proctor. Or no, I just morphed them together. Be your own character. Exactly. Be the good parts of Giles. There you go. And the good parts of John.

I meant to do that. I felt it. That was on purpose. It was, it was. Make up your own name. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew.

Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew.

Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew.

Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. Be Bartholomew. For everybody else listening, tell us where we can find your new show, Horoscope Weekly. So check out my new show, Horoscope Weekly. It's out every Monday and we get into what is going on that week. And maybe we'll touch on 1692 as well. You never know. And you can listen wherever you listen to your podcasts. Amazing. I'm listening.

Oh, I'm listening immediately. I'm getting in the car and listening on my way home. And where can we follow you on socials and find all your books? I am at Aliza Kelly Everywhere. That's A-L-I-Z-A-K-E-L-L-Y. And you can find my books wherever you find books. Great.

Go get books wherever you read. Go find all the books. Go get the books. Amazing. Well, guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird as everybody else in the Salem witch trials. Don't be George Corwin.

No, don't be George Corwin. Or Jonathan, really. Yeah, and don't be Giles Corey, I guess. Or no, Giles Proctor. See, now I'm wrong. I gotta go, everybody. I gotta go, guys. Be your own person.

Exactly. Be your own person. Goodbye. Goodbye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Imagine you're walking through the park one day and you see a suspicious backpack sitting

underneath a bench. You report it to the police and upon investigating, they discover two live pipe bombs inside. You rush to clear the area before they explode, saving countless lives and preventing injury. Everyone declares you a hero for a fleeting moment until everything changes and you are declared the prime suspect. This was the story of security guard Richard Jewell. After the centennial park bombing killed one person and wounded more than 100,

public pressure and a media witch hunt pushed a desperate FBI to find a suspect. Despite obvious holes in the case and unethical tactics used by the FBI, security guard Richard Jewell was under pressure to confess. I'm Aaron Habel. And I'm Justin Evans. Join us as we explore the aftermath of the 1996 centennial Olympic park bombing in the newest season of our podcast, Generation Y, the Olympic park bombing.

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