Morbid - Episode 631: Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes

Episode Date: December 26, 2024

This episode was that was originally published as Episode 240. We are revisiting it as a refresher before we update the case next Monday! We hope that you have a happy and safe holiday! We��re bringing you to one of our favorite vacation spots: Provincetown Mass. Only we aren’t sunbathing and playing volleyball on the beach, we’re here to solve a cold case, y’all. The Lady of the Dunes, as she’s known, was discovered on July 26, 1974, in the tall grass at the Race Point Dunes. Throughout the past 47 years investigators have worked tirelessly following up on leads and exhuming her body every time some kind of new technology comes up. To this day they still don’t know who killed the woman, or more importantly, who the woman even is!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello, brethren. Happy after the holidays. It's after the holidays now. Not here, but where you are. In the future. In the future. It's after the holidays. And we have a little business before we tell you why we're releasing this specific episode. There is a reason for the season turn, turn, turn.

And Ash is really good at business. Business is my middle name, also admin. She stands on it. Nicole is also my real middle name in case you were wondering. There is a reason for the season turn turn turn and now she's really good at business Business is my middle name also admin. She stands on it. Nicole is also my real middle name in case you're wondering don't steal it So anyway, I don't know. Don't use it for bad. Just don't steal it. Okay Let me anyway back to the business. Next Listener Tale episode is going to be available on all platforms with video on YouTube on January 2nd. Whoa!

Whoa! So I think we're doing two installments of Listener Tales for January because of, you know, the holiday. The first one that we're releasing in January on the second with video on YouTube is funny. The costumes. It's funny. All the other ones, dead serious. But this one, funny.

Funnier than the last one, I might add. Maybe. I don't know. We haven't even done it yet. That's a pretty tall order. Well, whatever. But anyway, Alaina, back to you. Tell them I were releasing this episode, haven't even done it yet. That's a pretty tall order. Well, whatever. But anyway, Elena, back to you. Tell them I were re-releasing this episode, The Lady of the Dunes.

So, this was a crazy, like, mysterious case. There wasn't an answer for it. Unsolved, if you will. It was one of those. You might say it was unsolved, but you can't say that anymore. Don't say that. Can't say that anymore,

because there's an update to the case, we know who did it now. We know who did it. We know who the lady of the dunes is. And I'm not gonna spoil anything for you, but because we did a whole episode to update you guys on it. But if you need a refresher, here it is. Listen to the lady of the dunes say, oh my goodness,

will we ever know what happened there? And then you can say, yes, we do. And then go to the next episode the Dunes, say, oh my goodness, will we ever know what happened there? And then you can say, yes, we do. We do. And then go to the next episode and badaboo. Which will be next Monday. There you go. There's the update.

So this is pretty fun. It's a little gift to you. It was a gift from the universe to the whole world to know who this woman was and to know what happened to her. So we're passing it forward. Enjoy. Please enjoy. Bye. Enjoy, please enjoy. Bye. Hey, weirdos.

I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid and it's local to Massachusetts. Hello. I get excited about these. You should. I do. I like covering ones from Massachusetts.

It's kind of my thing. It's kind of your thing. Well, do we have any business before we stay in Massachusetts? Before we stay in Massachusetts. It's kind of my thing. It's kind of your thing. Well, do we have any business before we stay in Massachusetts? Before we stay in Massachusetts. So one weird thing happened that kind of goes along with this episode because it happened in Massachusetts. It happened in Provincetown, didn't it?

It did. It's happening. Actually it happened in Cape Cod. Yeah. But, uh, like so right around there. But yeah, this guy, Michael Packard, who is like a veteran lobster diver, which lobster fishermen? Wild. No joke. We have a cousin that's a lobster fisherman. We do. He's a lobsterman. Shout out to Annie. To Annie. Yeah, it's a badass job. It is a very dangerous job. And this guy, Michael Packard, got swallowed by a humpback whale and then spit out. I mean we're happy for the latter part of that story. Very happy for the ending. Imagine having that life experience. Well and I guess like his crewmate was on the boat and this

guy was going down to check the traps and he said he just watches like the bubbles to make sure that he's like still alive essentially. Yeah. And he said all of a sudden he saw this like crazy explosion of bubbles and he's like, oh my god He he died and I can't do anything about it. Yeah, like literally He's doing that helpless and the guy I guess thought it was a shark that had got him So he was like, oh, I'm dead like he was like, this is it. He said I'm done I'm dead. All I could think about was my boys. They're 12 and 15 years old, which kills me. And he was breathing through a breathing regulator

at the time. What? Inside of a humpback whale? Well, not a humpback, I made that up. He said, no, it was a humpback whale. Yeah, it was a humpback whale. It's the morning. It is.

And apparently he was struggling because he was breathing through that apparatus. Right. So he was struggling and the whale was like, wow, I didn't mean to eat you. Right. You're not what I eat. Right. And so I think the whale like felt bad that he had eaten him.

And so he brought him to the surface to spit him out. We love a whale. We love a whale, which I guess he said within like 30 seconds. He said, but he said for a whale. Which I guess he said within like 30 seconds. But he said for a brief moment he thinks he was swallowed. Well yeah, he must have been. Like not just hanging out in his mouth. What the fuck?

Isn't that fucked up? Can you imagine going home and like your wife is like, hey, how was your day at work? And you're like, oh, actually I got swallowed by a humpback whale. How was your day, sweetie? I got swallowed by a humpback whale. How was your day sweetie? I got swallowed by a humpback whale. They initially thought he had broken both of his legs. Yeah. And they were like he at least broke one. He apparently didn't break any bones when he went to the hospital. Yeah he went to the hospital. He just had soft tissue damage. Oh. Yeah. What the fuck? And I guess an expert said that humpback

whales are like gulp feeders. They just slurp and gulp. They just get as much as they can down. So this was definitely like an accident. He just happened to be there and I think he was just gulping up food and happened to suck him in. I think that happens in Finding Nemo like actually. Yeah.

And then there's I guess there's a marine mammal expert Peter Corcoran and he's from the New England Aquarium Which our cousin worked at hey, I was just there the other day. Yeah, she's amazing and He works there and he was saying that the basically him the the whale bringing him to the surface to spit him out He said it's perfectly believable that the whale was trying to help him. Shut up I love this whale because there's evidence that say that humpbacks can be altruistic towards humans. Shut the fuck up. Yeah. It's like how elephants think we're cute.

Yes! Yeah, I love that. I fucking love animals. I do too. Not that I want to get swallowed by a humpback whale, but like, wow. But I think it was just like, it was a whoops moment for that whale. That was embarrassing, and he decided that he was going to try to make good at the end. It was embarrassing. He moment for that whale. That was embarrassing and he decided that he was gonna try to make good at the end. It was embarrassing.

He was probably really ashamed. Imagine having that under your belt for two truths and a lie. Yeah. I was born here. I like the color blue. And I was swallowed by a black whale. And they're like, okay, that's the line. You're like, I actually love the color red.

I hate blue. Like, what the fuck? That's an amazing story. I thought I had a good one. Mine is just that I was born in Hawaii. Yeah. People are always like, you do. That's the lie. And you're like, no. But I was not swallowed by humpback whale. No, you were not. Maybe I'll still use it in Two Truths and a Lie though. I think it's a good one. And you know what, Michael Packard? I'm really glad that you're okay. Congrats. Yeah, congrats. And make sure you tell your boys because they're gonna love that story.

Also, are you gonna go back to lobster? I'm sure he will. He probably will. Those people are always just bad ass. Yeah, they don't care. Like that's just, they know the ocean. They know the dangers of the ocean and they're just like, yeah, I'm okay.

Like I think at one point he was like, at least it wasn't a shark, which you're like, yeah. But it was still a whale that swallowed you. You were in the bell of a whale. Yeah, that's scary. That's crazy. Also, it took everything in me and now I just can't get past it. When you said whales are gulp feeders, I was going to say same.

Yeah, I figured. And I couldn't let that joke go. I figured. You had to bring it right back around. It hits different after the fact, but it still hits. It does. You're welcome. I think a lot of people can relate.

Yeah. But yeah, so that brings us nicely into the episode today, which is the crazy, mysterious and gruesome case of the Lady of the Dunes. And unsolved. Very unsolved. And now I want to solve it. Whenever I get into one of these cases really hard, I'm like, well, you know, things do happen after we cover cases. They do. I'm like, well, you know, things do happen after we

cover cases. They do. And it freaks me out. I feel like this is, it reminds, this reminds me of like the Karina Holmer case, the way I wanna, I wanna solve it. Like I really wanna solve that case and I really want to solve this case and they're both Massachusetts. I solved the Karina Holmer case. Yeah. I know who did it. I know what you did last summer. But I want it like solved. Yeah. I want it on the books. You want a real detective to be doing that. I need to know more information. We need to solve this citizen detective style. Let's do it. We're going to solve this. Did you hear us? And we'll go solve this. We should just get like a true crime squad together. Let's do it. Get Sarah

Turney. Like she's clearly doing the damn thing. Sarah Turney, you're on the squad. We have to get Bailey Sarian because we're newly best friends. And she can make us look good too. Yes, please. So while we're doing this. Yeah, I think that's honestly that's the dream team. It really is.

I'm sure we'll think of more later. We'll add to the squad because it's early and I mean the entire Morbid Network has to come. Exactly. Everybody, everybody. All right. So guys, let's pack your bags. Come to Massachusetts. We're doing this.

You see, we're going to solve the Lady of the Dunes case. But let me tell you about it first so that you can you guys can decide afterwards if you want to join the squad. Yeah. So first of all, if you happen to have any information about this case, because it is a pretty well known case, especially around here, you can direct any tips, any information, anything that your grandparents may have slipped out at some point at dinner time, at supper. At the supper table, if they sat there and they told you that one time they were in P

town and it was July, it was hot and I stumbled upon this dead body. time they were in P-Town and it was July it was hot and I stumbled upon this dead body. The here's where you can tell the Provincetown Police Department 508-487-1212 or 508-487-1213 or if you have any any information about the unidentified body that we are going to talk about call the office of the chief medical examiner at 617-267-6767. A, so make sure you call those if you have any information. So I'm gonna start this off with a quick little quote that's gonna like sum it up for you what we're gonna talk about.

Alrighty. For the last 47 years, investigators have been struggling to identify the Lady of the Dunes, a handless corpse that was found nearly decapitated on a Massachusetts beach." So that's gonna tell you everything you need to know about. There it is. Now it is wild to me, it's always wild to me when we can't find who did something even if we have the identity of the victim because it's

like people should never be able to get away with this stuff especially now. Right. But we don't even know who she is. That's the thing that is nuts to me is that we don't know who this woman is. No one's been able to identify her. It's so scary. And when I start telling you who she was, how she was found, you're going to see that it's strange because as they say multiple times she seems well taken care of.

Right. You know, like she doesn't, she didn't come across as somebody who was like, you know, going from place to place or down on her luck or anything. Maybe wasn't connected to people. She seemed like she interacted with people quite often. Okay. So what happened was a bit after 6 p.m. on Friday, July 26, 1974, a 12-year-old girl named Leslie Metcalf was at Race Point Dunes in P-Town.

She was following a barking dog, it was a beagle, and she had been with friends at the beach. Leslie's sister, Alyssa, had said in an interview later that she was at the stables that day, but her sister and some friends had gone to the beach to play. They had been hanging around and at a dune shack that a family friends were renting. And a dune shack is exactly what it sounds like. But they were originally built like a century ago or century, a century, a century earlier than like 1974. Yeah, exactly. So not now.

But they were originally built as cabins for like these crews of people who would keep watch for ships so they wouldn't run aground in bad weather. And they're just exactly what they sound like, just little shacks all across the dunes. Yeah. Now after a while, they turned them into into beach rentals and places where local artists or creators of any kind could set up and sell their wares out of. They're all over the place in P-Town and on the Cape in general. Exactly.

Now her parents were there as well and there were two dogs in the shack. When they were all ready to head home they were just going to walk across the beach and the dunes and go back home. They started walking and one of the dogs, the Beagle, followed them, which was fine. He was just walking down the beach with them. But then he kind of veered off the path and started barking wildly. Like clearly trying to tell them something. He was very clearly indicating something he had found. Right. That was for sure. So Leslie was like, hmm, what? Because she's 12 and I want to know what that dog's doing. I mean, I'm 35 and I'd be like, hmm, I want to find out what that dog is barking at.

And she followed him as I would. And when she ran off the beaten track after the dog, she quickly noticed a motionless form laying in the dunes. And it was surrounded by tall grass. Now she said she thought the body initially was a deer at first. Not a mannequin this time. Not a mannequin. She thought it was a deer.

And she said, you know, she was upset enough about possibly running into a dead or hurt deer. Yeah. That's still shitty. Of course. But then she saw the form completely. She made out some legs and feet, and she saw hair tied up into a ponytail

and caked with blood. Oh my goodness. And she realized that she was looking at a human body. This poor little 12 year old finding that. She could also smell the scent of decomposition nearby. Like, you know, she had been there for a while in the summer sun. So she was bacon.

Now, what had happened though was it was really hot. It's hot summers here and on peat town and it's right next to the it's on the beach right next to the water. Massachusetts water is not like crystal clear Caribbean water. Love that dirty water smell of like the ocean and all that is can be gnarly. But it's something you just expect here that you're gonna have that beach smell. You just get hit in the face with like red tides. Exactly, so it's like, so this smell

of this decomposing woman in the sun for what they think could have been, you know, up to more than a week. Wow, I didn't know it was that long. Yeah, they think it was just kind of mixing with the, which tells you something about what the ocean smells like here, that people were just like, man. Well, there's probably like mad bodies in our oceans too.

So yeah, there definitely are. So she could definitely smell it the closer she got. And their parents said that all they heard was her say, mom, dad. Like she didn't was her say, Mom, Dad. Like she didn't scream, she just said, Mom. So her parents went to see what was wrong and they discovered the body. Yikes.

So this body was only found about a mile away from the Provincetown police station. Oh wow, that's interesting. Now they immediately ran to the dune shack that they had been at and they contacted the Rangers Leslie's recollection was that the clothing on scene was very neatly folded and placed under this woman's head She could see some clothing and she said she immediately saw that this woman was naked that her hands She didn't see initially that they were missing and we'll get into that but she said her hands were buried in the

Sand gotcha. Luckily Leslie didn't see that the head was almost decapitated. She said she seemed like she almost looked like she was asleep and sunbathing in the nude. Which did it seem like she was face down? She was face down. She was all the way face down. This holiday season, give your loved ones only the best from L.L. Bean. Keep them warm and dry all winter long with weather-resistant outerwear. Versatile, durable, and available in a wide range of styles, you'll find outerwear for the whole family. From casual outings to outdoor adventures, L.L. Bean outerwear keeps the warm in and the cold out. Give only the best gifts from L.L. Bean at Oakville Place, George and Mollinbury, and CF Shops at Don Mills. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture

America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Raden was found dead in a canyon near LA in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together they were trying to break into the movie industry, but things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From

Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery comes a new season of the hit show, Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. ["Wonderful Music"] Apparently the family friends who had rented the dune shack that summer said they never

rented that shack again. They never returned to the dunes again because they were so disturbed by the sultan. I mean, yeah, I would be too. And Leslie's sister, Alyssa, said their family had been visiting P-Town for years at this point. And it was a very safe area. Yeah, especially then. It was like very safe. I Yeah, it is. Especially then. It was very safe. I mean, kids could walk around without their parents. They could run around on beaches and in the dunes to play. No one thought anything of it. It's that whole thing of quiet, quaint little town.

It is. It's a quiet New England town. But it is. And it is. This is weird. So Alyssa, the sister, also said that no one really interviewed them about their experience, the family, and likely just went off of the ranger story for details. Usually papers and stories say that Leslie was walking her dog and just came across the body,

but that's not accurate. And I did find many stories that started off with a 12 year old girl walking her dog. And that's wrong. I know it's not like totally pertinent to the infer like that she was chasing a dog that wasn't hers. Yeah, but still you should get the information right. But it makes it seem like this 12 year old girl was just alone walking her dog and stumbled across it and that's just not what happened.

Well, and like to not mention that the parents also saw something. Exactly. Because I guess I think the reason that they probably do that is like, oh, it's a 12 year old. So like, that's why we didn't really interview her. Exactly. We just let it go. And it's like, so Park Ranger James Hankins was the first officer arriving on scene.

And he said she was laying face down naked on a green beach blanket. He could see red hair and that she had been severely beaten over the head. She was also seemingly missing her hands, he said. They were not buried. He and other media outlets said the hands were shoved into the sands with pine needle piles around them, like her arms, like where her hands should be. And it made it look like she was doing pushups. Weird.

Yeah. And he was quoted as saying it was ghastly. It was as if she had been laying there alone or on a blanket with someone and someone came up and clubbed her. There was no signs of a struggle. Even the sand hadn't been disturbed. Wow. That's so weird. And that's something that a lot of people talk about is there was zero sign of struggle. People say it did not look like she was fought here. It didn't look like it looked like she was there and was caught off guard. Well, and therefore like for there to not be like even like maybe blood splatter on

the sand. Yeah, that's weird. It's wild. It's really well. And I think there was like definitely like blood spatter. Yeah, and stuff. But you could tell she didn't fight back. Right. So she was definitely caught off guard Caught off guard which it's like was she asleep That's what that's honestly what a lot of people think is that she was asleep Well, and I feel like that's kind of an area too where you would go to sleep because like you don't have to worry about The water like the tide changing anything like that and she's tall grass exactly She was hidden enough that she could have been sunbathing in the nude.

Exactly. And like hiding in the nude and just kind of fell asleep. Yeah. And it's like, but what happened? Were you with someone? So like I said, there was some clothing that were found. There was a pair of Wrangler jeans that were folded up like a pillow under her head, which

to me says she went to sleep with those under her head like a pillow under her head, which to me says she went to sleep with those. Right. Exactly. Like a pillow. And there was also a blue bandana under her head and she was laying halfway on a light green blanket, like a beach blanket. The Warren Tobias, who was the retired acting police chief in Provincetown, said she was definitely posed there. She was lying out on a beach towel as if she was sunbathing. So he doesn't think that she was definitely posed there. She was lying out on a beach towel as if she was sunbathing. So he doesn't think that she was asleep? She was either posed there or that's

like what she was doing when it happened. Gotcha. So James Hankins, the ranger, called Provincetown police chief at the time, James Jimmy Meads at home because they were friends. And actually, I guess Meads had given Hankins some extra responsibilities. He could kind of do more than a normal ranger could,

because he was trustworthy. So he called him at home, and he was like, you've got to get down here. Now, Provincetown Police Chief James Jimmy Meads felt like it was his duty to solve this case. So he was so trustworthy. He will know this was the police chief.

Well, that's good. He's a he felt very connected to this case and he took every opportunity to push it forward and like really push down doors to get things done for this case. Like he had a forensics team come together at one point to create composites and claim models of her likeness. He literally said he wouldn't retire until he found out who she was. For years, he actually had her skull in his office as a reminder to himself that she was unnamed and can't be forgotten. Wow, that is dedication.

He also got her dental records and all information published anywhere he could and constantly brought up her case in any interview he did, anywhere he could. He was really trying to keep her case in the forefront and make sure she was not forgotten. It's so interesting that they did get her dental records. Oh, yeah, and we'll get into it. Don't worry, because she has very specific dental records

too, which makes it even weirder So he said quote with most murders you try to figure out who the murderer was I've spent years trying to figure out who the victim was as the years dwindle on more dentists will retire or die More dental records will be lost and the opportunity for identification will diminish Maybe someone on death row will decide to cleanse his soul before he dies and confess to the murder. It appears that someday soon I'll retire and the case won't be solved. But I'm sure whoever follows me in this job, if they get a lead, they'll call me and I'll be ready."

And each chief after him have all made it a priority to bring this case back up and try and solve it. Every single case. I'm glad every chief after him has been like priority. Number one is solving this case. So when Meade showed up after Hankins called him, he showed up with two other detectives that evening and he saw the scene and he said immediately his head went to Tony chop chop Costa.

Hey, we know all about Tony Chop Chop. We do. If you remember, we did an episode about Tony Chop Chop Costa, another killer in Provincetown. And if you, I don't know if anybody caught that Jimmy Meads is kind of a familiar name. I thought it was, but then I didn't know if I like knew somebody like personally with that name. Yep. See Meads was in our, our Costa episode. I thought it was, but then I didn't know if I like knew somebody like personally with that name. Yep. See Meads was in our, our cost app. So yeah, uh, he had actually known cost us since he was young when he moved to P town and he meets had been the one to recruit cost as a drug informant before he turned into a serial killer because of his help in the drug informant cases. Meads wrote

him a letter to get him early parole when he was in jail for non-payment of child support. Because he basically wrote the letter to get him out so he could use him as a drug informant. So he got him out five months early in November, 1968. And two months after he was let out, he murdered Pat Walsh and Mary Ann Wysocki. Right. So Meads was part of the investigation. He actually spoke to Patricia Morton, who was the

rooming house owner who told him that Mary Ann Wysocki and Pat Walsh had spent two nights at her rooming house and that a man named Tony Costa had also been staying there at the same time. She had told him that they had interacted and that she had not seen the girls in a few days and as we know, Tony had killed them both. So that's a bummer. So that's why their head immediately went to Tony. Exactly. So it's very much like the dismemberment and stuff is very Tony Costa, Tony Chop Chop Costa.

But not like him. Sorry, I'm probably jumping ahead of you. Oh, no. Well, well, the big main thing was immediately he thought of Tony Chop Chop, but then he realized it couldn't be him because he had killed himself May 12th of 1974. All right. Well, that's so couldn't be him. And I was going to say he didn't leave people out in the open. He didn't bury them in like the garden thing that he had. He liked to do his little garden, his Tony garden. They searched the surrounding areas around the scene for days and they found literally nothing, not a shred of evidence.

That's crazy. They even used bloodhounds, nothing hit, couldn't find anything. I mean, it must be hard on the beach too because wind blows and the sand moves. Oh yeah, absolutely. And it buries things. And then there's water involved. It's just all this. It's like the worst thing ever. So the autopsy was done Saturday July 27th 1974. What it what it came out was she was about 5'6", 135 pounds and estimated to be between

25 and 40 years old. Her build was described as an athletic build. She had long hair that was reddish or described as auburn in a lot of places. It was in a ponytail. They couldn't actually determine what color her eyes are because of decomposition. Oh, wow. So what happens is when you die, you stop blinking. And so you don't produce any kind of moisture in your eyes. And there's no more blood circulation to of moisture in your eyes and there's no more blood circulation to help with all that. So there's no oxygen coming into your eyes once you're dead because the cornea needs to be moist for oxygen to absorb into it and lack of oxygen affects the opacity of your

of your cornea and the lens. So it doesn't change the color of the eye technically But if you're looking at it, it will appear bluish or white or like even gray because it's because it'll be cloudy Yeah, it'll have that cloudy haze over it. Yeah, that's so weird. I never knew that before. Yeah, it's like a weird thing So sometimes it can be especially after if they they've been out for a while. That's really gonna they're gonna have cloudy eyes It's just the way. That's so frustrating too when you're dealing with like an unidentified body.

Yeah, exactly. So she also had pink toenail polish on. Oh girl. I know that always gets me. It does. Ever since the Willie Picton episode, cause you had said one of the girls was found with red toenail polish, I paint my toes red all the time

and I always think of it now. Cause you always think, cause I think that too, doing autopsies, I say it a lot that like little things always make me think like, oh, you had no idea. Because it's the last time you were going to paint your nails. You know, it's like such a personal thing that like you just do it like you don't paint your nails thinking of dying. It's like a self care thing.

So it's like they just they either you or someone painted your toenails Just and you had no idea that that was the last time you would do that I'm not you know, it always gets me now now we're gonna get into her teeth Okay, cuz I'm interested she had lots of teeth missing but they are fairly sure that this was from the murder or Circumstances, but not circumstances before the murder. They think that this was on purpose that her teeth are missing She had a lot of gold crowns in her teeth, huh? estimated between $5,000 and $10,000 worth of dental work in her tree

They actually sent out her dental records to dentists all over Massachusetts and the country dental records to dentists all over Massachusetts and the country, also the FBI and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Wow. And they didn't get anything? Nothing. What? That is nuts to me. Nothing.

I'm like, what? And they think that the missing teeth were pulled out forcibly. Right. That they pulled them out intentionally. I remember hearing that. And how? Are there, I don't know if you know this, are there certain teeth that are better for identification?

I don't think so. I think it's more dental work. Just in general. Unless, all I can think about is if she had some kind of, like maybe she had one tooth that severely overlapped another one. Right, like a noticeable thing. That would be very identifiable. If she had some really, really identifiable specific to her thing that they wanted to

remove for that. But just the teeth themselves, I think it's just really the dental work that you're looking for. Well, and then does that say to you that this is probably somebody who's killed before because they know that and they're that callous to freaking pull a tooth? Yes, because when we get into the hands, those hands were definitely taken off to take away fingerprints. Right. So this is somebody who knows how to take away identification and did a great job because we can't identify her. So clearly has probably done this before. I feel like that. I feel like that. I think so. I don't think this is a one off. Experienced level of moita. And we're

going to get at the end of this episode, we'll talk about the theories who has been brought up over the years and maybe talk about who we think could be it. She was also sexually assaulted with a wooden block, but they think it was done postmortem, which is terrible regardless. But her hands were cut off, like I said, one at the forearm and one at the wrist. So no fingerprints to identify her obviously, where her hands would have been whoever placed her there had piled on pine needles, like intentionally, the left side of her head had been crushed in like an eggshell they said. The medical examiner said it looked like the blow had

happened from someone lying next to her or when she was asleep. There wasn't any signs of struggle. She was on one side of the blanket so it seemed likely that she may have known her killer or was at least slightly comfortable with them and was asleep and didn't see it coming. Yeah. So it's either she was asleep, didn't see it coming and didn't know the person or she was on that blanket with someone and they and she fell asleep or was just lying there and they took her out.

She was almost decapitated. They thought this was due to a combination of multiple strangulation attempts and also that blow to the head. It was done with a tool which is called a military entrenchment tool. And that was actually the cause of death was the blow to the head. The military entrenchment tool is a collapsible spade kind of thing used by military and like survivalists. It's really sharp and usually made of like steel and shit So I think it was James Hankins yet

That said quote the only instrument that could have been used to hack off her hands was an instrument carried by almost all dune buggies Interest it was common in all sort surplus stores. It was a handy tool for a camper. It was a folding shovel called an entrenching tool. It was standard issue item for anyone in the infantry. Soldiers in World War II in Korea carried them. It was very sturdy, made out of heavy metal, semi-pointed, spade-like. The blade could be folded down on the handle, or it could be raised to a perpendicular like a hoe, or you could make it into a shovel with a straight handle around 18 inches long. In hand-to-hand combat, you could use it to fight your enemy. Wow, so this is a versatile tool.

It is, and it sounds like every dune buggy had one. Yeah, which is interesting. And that it's a good tool for campers, people who camp out on the dunes, people who... So this is opening up like... Many doors. A lot of doors. Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From covert

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NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondry Plus. You can join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. There was also a ton of insect activity on the body that they noticed. We'll also mention

that again after we talk about the theories. Yeah. Now the stomach contents indicated that she had recently eaten a meal of burger and fries, which indicated to a lot of people that she had been in town that day. Yeah, maybe at one of the burger and fry joints. Right. She had estimated to have been dead for at least 10 days, but possibly as long as three weeks. Whoa, dude. They believe she was, they were thinking that she was possibly killed somewhere else if it's not the theory of her being asleep.

Just because of the lack of stuff at the crime scene. Right. There was blood, but like, I think it wasn't as bloody as you would think it would be at that scene. And then when you get into the insect insect activity does that kind of like skew it even more it's honestly it doesn't but it's like I think they just can't figure it out yeah they can't figure this out it's like she looks like she could have been asleep on that towel on that towel or it could have been all set up to look like she was sleeping on that because it almost does seem like too perfect like pose Right. Yeah, cuz it's but it's like she's on the other thing is she's on her

She's face down. Right. So it's like you would sunbathe that way Yeah, like you know what I mean? Like you would do that But then it's like would somebody place you face down or the would they place you face up? Maybe they would place you face down to make it look place you face up? Maybe they would place you face down to make it look like you had been sunbathing. Exactly. Right, so they probably just don't wanna rule out anything because it could be anything.

Yeah, they have no evidence to say exactly what is going on here, which is so frustrating. I can't imagine working on this case, even just like listening to it is frustrating. So frustrating, so no missing persons matched that description. None. They searched all local motels and hotels, asked if someone had seen someone matching that description or if someone had not returned to their room matching that description.

Nothing. Like how is she not connected to anybody? That's the thing. And again, no fingerprints. So we can't even try that. I know. Now a detective named Detective Flynn said quote, it's certainly unusual that no one misses her. She must have had a husband, boyfriend, parents, someone she had been pretty well taken care of. We know that. So she was like in like in a state where obviously she had almost $10,000 worth of dental work in her house. She was not just floating around homeless. Your mind just goes to all these different things. One of the first things I thought was, was she a runaway?

And had run away a long time ago and just was making her own life and not dating anybody? Maybe. There's so many ways you could go with it. And especially in the 70s, people's like people were like going off on their own, doing things on their own all the time. Oh yeah. And Provincetown was like a perfect place to go. Just like a Tony Chop Chop that was like his whole life was just floating around Provincetown.

So it's like maybe not like, but she's not a drifter because she's well taken care of. So it's weird and she must've been staying somewhere. Like her hair's nice. It's in a ponytail. Yeah. Like it seems that yeah, they don't describe it as like unkempt or anything. Right. So it's, it's very strange. Uh, there were two pairs of footprints seen in the sand around the scene. They appeared to be heading towards the body, but they never came right up to it. Hmm. So that's interesting. Um, there was also a set of tire tracks present about 50 yards from the crime scene but again it could have been weeks.

So that could have just been like a dune buggy. Yeah. So over 30 different police officers searched the entire Cape and they had zero leads. Zero. I could not imagine. Now a few years later they were getting a little desperate so they sent Jimmy Meads to New York City to see a psychic Named Yolana Bard who was known as the queen of the psychics Okay, she had worked on a lot of cases a lot of well-known people and at this point they're like what can it hurt? Right as well. Just give it a shot. Sometimes it can though. It can. So apparently he placed case things in front of her, but they were all in sealed packages. Okay.

So she wouldn't know what was inside of them. It was their test. Sure. They were like, you proved to me that you can. That you're the queen. So they were like, he was literally like, tell me something. If I wanted to like tell me what's going on in one of these. So she stopped over one of them and said,

I sense blood in this one. And it was an envelope containing a bloody piece of evidence from the crime scene. But also, like, there probably would be blood in one of them. So but then she said she saw dripping and she said there was a beach. Now, she didn't know what she what victim she was talking about. Right. She said there was a beach where the victim was found and she said their hands were buried. That's what. Yeah, that's huge. She said there was a beach where the victim was found and she said their hands were buried.

That's what? Yeah, that's huge. So she gave him directions to where the hands would be found, buried. Wow. And he went back to P-Town to look. He was like, all right, I'm gonna go check this out. And he put everything she said together

and decided that the place she was indicating, he thought was a place called the Ace of Spades, which was a bar in town. And it had been there for a while. And what happened was the water, I guess, dripped onto the beach from some of the sinks. It was like known that they saw the dripping water. Yeah. Um, and it all kind of matched up with the description.

So he went there and she had told him that they would be buried in the basement. And unfortunately found out that two months earlier, they had cemented the basement. Oh my God. That's also a little weird. Little strange. Why are you just cementing your basement out of nowhere? Exactly. I mean, maybe you have radon, but still.

Maybe. Massachusetts is old. We've got lots of radon coming up in these random dirt basements. I know. So it's really not that crazy to think it's really not, but it's still like, but it's curious timing. Well, and he was thinking he was going to be able to at least dig around and he couldn't

even do that. That sucks. So James Hankins, the ranger said that he had walked away from the crime scene that night and he noticed something when he walked away. Okay. And he said he didn't say anything and it's always bothered him. He said he saw pictures and words drawn in the sand a little ways away.

But he said it didn't look like kids drawings to him. Cause he was like, at first I was like, oh, kids draw in the sand all the time. It's the Cape, like kids are here all day, every day. But he was like, for some reason, it just didn't ring his kids drawings to me. And he says, it always bothered him because he didn't investigate it or take a photo because he was like,

whoever drew those things was definitely close to the body recently, right? Because they would have been erased by the wind or the waves if it was done earlier. Right. So he's like, it always bothered me that I didn't take the second to go see what they were as well. I know. So he's like, it always bothered me that I didn't take the second to go see what they were. I know. And the body was finally laid to rest at St. Peter's Cemetery in October 1974. Her tombstone says, unidentified female body found Race Point Dunes.

Oh, that's very sad. Yeah. And actually, Alyssa Metcalf and said she and her sister Leslie, who was the one who found the body, would often go to the cemetery and visit her grave. I love that. And they said they always felt like a weird connection to her. And it always bothered them that they still don't know who she is. Well, and it's like you have to respect them through the afterlife too.

Yeah, exactly. Like plant flowers or something. Yeah, and it's like she's unidentified. Right. Like somebody knows her and somebody must miss her. Somebody cares about her. You know? Like who are you?

Who are you that misses her and hasn't said anything? But in 1987, 10 years after this, a Canadian woman came forward and said she thought this woman could have been a victim of her father's. Apparently, when she was young, which hurts my heart, she witnessed her father strangle a woman while she was visiting him in P-town in the 70s.

Oh shit. Now this woman thought that this was the woman. She was like, I think I recognize her as the woman. So they get this and they tell Meads about it. And he was like, I'll go up to Canada and I'll interview this woman. Oh yeah, like I'm going. So then they try to contact her again to get more information. She had moved out of her home and they literally couldn't find her again.

Bitch. And she never contacted them again. I have goosebumps. Look at my arm. Right? I mean, I feel like that's really shitty. Like why would you call and like get them excited to fix this case? Exactly. Obviously that must be like a really traumatic thing for you to have to like even call in

the first place. But it's like someone lost someone and like clearly you were trying to help. So like what made you change your mind? Follow through one. You have to wonder like is her dad still was her dad still alive? Well that's what I want. And like she got scared and like he found out or something. Yeah.

Like did someone find out in the family and was like, you gotta be quiet. Did he find out there's so much that could have happened there. It's like, we, we don't even know. I can't find any information about what this lady's name is or anything. Imagine if her dad like found out and he like also killed her. Imagine. Like that's not, I need to, I did tons of digging to find who she was. I'm going to keep digging to find who she was. Cause I swear to you, I want to find out this woman. I'm going to find digging to find who she was because I swear to you, I want to find

out this woman. I'm going to find this woman. Come on. I'm just going to call Canada. Hi, Canada. It's me. Elena from Mormon. Hello, it's me, Elena.

And I'd like to talk to that woman. Do we have any contacts in Canada, guys? We do. Elena's calling 1-800-CANADA. Excuse me, that's spooky. Johnny and Tyler. Accurate. Very accurate. Can you help me? I meant like contacts to like the police people. spooky. Johnny and Tyler. Accurate. Very accurate. Can you help me?

I meant like contacts to like the police people. Yeah, Johnny and Tyler. They're very important people. Like they can help us out. I mean they are VIP. They are. Alright, so Johnny, Tyler, let's get on this together. More squad up. Alright, we're making this squad huge. Alright, so we got the Canada squad up, so we're ready. But then there was also a Maryland woman who called and said she thought the woman was her sister who had been, she had just moved to Boston, I guess, recently before this, like when this was happening. The sister.

The sister, and suddenly had disappeared. And she was spending time in P-Town. Right. Because it's a very normal fucking thing to do. No one knew where she went that year. She said she just disappeared, vanished. And she said her sister matched the height, weight and hair color. Did she say anything about dental work at all?

Well, that's the important part because Meads actually asked for her sister's dental records and they were able to ship them out to Meads. Okay, and? Because he was like, let's do this. They weren't a match. Fuck you. No gold crowns, nothing like that. Wow.

So, sounded really good. And I honestly, I feel bad for the girl, the Maryland woman, because now it's like, I wonder what happened to her sister. Well, and she probably had like some ounce of hope like it all lines up. Yeah, just that there would be some kind of closure. You know?

The crime scene now is it. And at the time was, I guess, in the 70s was the biggest tourist attraction. Was that place on the dunes? And even now, it's a big pull for people to go look. I know it's one of those things that it's like you can have a million opinions about it, but it's one of those things that like it's never going to stop. That kind of like, you know, it's seeing a place like that. It's like going to the Lizzie Borden house. You know, it's like, it's, it's not going to, it's like going to the freaking

cemetery in Salem. Exactly. It's, it's morbid curiosity. Definitely go to Salem. It's amazing. Oh my God. I love Salem so much. It's also like, like I said in the other episode about it, it's, I think it's like a profound experience going to Salem. Absolutely. When you go to like the historical places. Well, and there's so many like historical sites. We went to like at least like 42 when we were there the other day. Massachusetts has like a lot of good history. I think guys come to Massachusetts. If you're from here, you get it. Hello, I'm from the board of tourists, tourism. I can't speak. I'm from the board of tourism. I'm on a board. In Massachusetts. Come visit Massachusetts. Come little children.

Yeah, that was in Massachusetts too. See, we have tons of shit. I'm dead ass. All right. So they did exhume her body in 1980, 2001 and 2013. See that makes me, I know they have to, but it makes me so sad. I know, but I'm one of those, I think it's like the science in me. I'm like, nope, bring them up. Like we gotta look at them. But then you're just like, who are you? Like can't you just let them rest?

She can't rest in peace. Yeah, you just want her to rest in peace. But they, advances keep happening in science and forensic science. So every time something comes up, they're like, let's bring her up and use this exhuming her is eventually to get to the goal of her resting in peace. Exactly. And that's always the goal with exhuming a body is to eventually get them to rest forever. But honestly, it hasn't nothing's come up. Every time they've

brought her up and it's nothing is moving forward. This is the strangest case. Now, a woman who people might know named Sandra Lee, she's a crime writer. She said when she was nine years old, she actually discovered the Lady of the Dunes first with her sister, but was too horrified to tell anyone at nine years old. She was with her dog and stumbled upon her.

And she said, quote, I stumbled down an incline with my dog and stumbled upon her and she said quote, I stumbled down an incline with my dog. The dog was ahead of me. My dog got excited about something. I heard a very strange noise. If you can imagine someone holding a string of pearls, I heard that sound. And then there was a horrible smell. At first I attribute it to low tide. She was face down. Her hair was a mess and I could see a gouge in the right side of her neck. Her arms were tucked down in the sand so I didn't know anything was missing. I recognized the green blanket right away. The lower half of her body was covered with something. She later found out that that sounds like somebody

holding a pearl necklace, which you can know you can tell what that sound is. That was the sound of hundreds of thousands of maggots crawling all over her body. Yeah, she says she is sure that she's like, I am sure either one or a couple other people must have stumbled upon this body in those three weeks, and just were too scared to say anything. That's a little messed up. And she was like, because she was like, if it was kids, there was kids all over this speech, all over the speech, always playing in these students. Think about it. These two people are two children, a 12 year old and a nine year old. I'm sure another kid ran across this.

I was like, I don't know what that is. Or ran across it and thought it was just a naked sunbather. Um, especially from a distance. And now I have a question. How do you transport a bot? or ran across it and thought it was just a naked sunbather, especially from a distance. And now I have a question. How do you transport a bot? How do you get the insects off of a body to transport it? Usually, they transport with the insects.

Do they? Yeah. So the people that transport it, they just gown up or something? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Gotcha. Especially in a case like that where it's so many.

And then you must just like clean up the vehicle afterwards. You'll definitely try to like get them out when there's like hundreds of thousands. But then you don't want to wipe away evidence. They're in the bag basically. Have you ever opened a bag and had insects be in there? I haven't, luckily. Which is a good thing. Sorry, just a little side note. I was really curious.

Because I'm not down for insects. They can exist. I just don't want to exist. Magots are not for me. Magots are not something I want to deal with. And that is really a great way to describe the sound of thousands of maggots. I don't want to really continue to think about it. It's like a pearl necklace in your hand. That's actually my birthstone, so please leave. So please leave. Thank you. All right. Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with his The Grinch Holiday Podcast.

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Somebody thought she might have been a woman named Rory Jean Kessinger. Now this was a 24 year old woman at the time and she matched the height and the weight of the lady in the dunes. She was also known to be a drug dealer and a bank robber. She was picked up at one point running around naked in the woods in Pembroke saying she had been sexually assaulted and an off off-duty police officer brought him to his home to call for backup, and when she got in there, she turned off the lights, stole his gun, and then said she had to kill him. What the fuck?

And he wrestled it from her, but she went to jail for assault and intent to murder. Wow. She went to jail in Plymouth, and on May 26th, 1974, she escaped from jail because someone smuggled her in a hacksaw and she sawed through the bars. Like I hate to say this, but like bad bitch vibes. She was never seen again. Unless she's the lady on the duty.

She was never seen again. Such a different Rory. No one knows where she went. Such a different Rory. Such a different Rory. Honestly though. Not a different Rory. Rory Gilmore. She did go to jail. She a different Rory. Honestly though, not a different Rory. Rory Gilmore.

She did go to jail. She did steal a boat. Huh? And she commits, she is part of many adulterous affairs. So she's, she's not on the- I don't know if she's robbed any banks though. I don't know. We don't know.

We didn't see her. We didn't see her rob a bank, but we didn't see her not rob a bank. I can't say she didn't rob a bank. I didn't see you not rob a bank. So maybe it just didn't make the final cut. I don't know. But either way, it wasn't Rory Gilmore. And it wasn't this Rory because in 2002 DNA from her mother, they used familial DNA

compared to the unknown body proved it wasn't her. You know, I didn't think it unknown body proved it wasn't her. You know, I didn't think it was her. I didn't either. But a lot of people thought it was because the other thing was you see a picture of Rory. And you see a picture of this on the composite. Sure. This girl, they do have a striking resemblance to each other. So it is interesting. Now, one of my favorites and one that I think has a little bit of legs here is that James Whitey Bulger did this. And do you think this has a lot of legs?

I think it has legs. Okay. I don't, I'm not sold. Okay. I don't, I'm not sold. Okay. But I think I, I, I'm like, it's one of those that I can see that it definitely could be him. And I can also be like, eh. So it's just like, it's one that I just will keep over in a corner. Well, and if you know anything about Whitey, like in the whole beginning of this thing, I said, like, this is clearly somebody who's killed before. Exactly. In my opinion, at least. Well, in, you know, we, especially if you're in Massachusetts, everyone knows Whitey Bulger.

If you're in Massachusetts, you definitely know Whitey Bulger. Yeah, you're probably his cousin. Your grandparents are probably telling you that they should have just let him keep being on the lam because he's a harmless old person. Yeah, sure, Papa. That makes sense. So witnesses said that they saw, because people would see whitey bulger all over the place. He was he was existing among everybody. He was just everybody was just letting him do his thing.

Whitey was a vibe and a half. He was scary. So witnesses said that they did see him with a woman who matched the lady of the dooms description in P town at this time. Interesting. He was known at this time to be in P town. Um, he, what the fuck was whitey boulder? You want to know what he was doing? He was frequenting a bar in the area, uh, called the crone and anchor. I mean it makes sense, but like, yeah, I P town is just such a chill vibe. And whitey is such a chaotic vibe. He is. I think that he's chaotic in Boston and I think he chills and vacation. But if he did this, then he's chaotic everywhere. So it'll erase my view of him being chill and P town. But yeah,

so this this bar, the crone and anchor that he loved frequent down here was very close to where they found her body. Oh, that's weird. His thing was to remove his victim's teeth. Right. He did have a thing for that. Sandra Lee, the crime writer, thinks she may have that this woman may have been an Irish immigrant and that she was groomed by Bolger to be forced into sex work. Oh, no. Because he was also a human trafficker. Like he was in all that shit. He's a real bad guy. He's a real bad guy. I feel like some people kind of like he is he gets glossed over as just like, I feel like a lot of these like mob bosses and like crime families, they become a thing because you know, you watch the Sopranos,

you see the Godfather and you see how terrible it all is, but somehow it just, everyone just kind of is like, but that's a cool crime family, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, I think it's like a weird human thing that a lot of people do. And I think he's one of those characters that's so infamous that people just are like, why do you bulge? You know what it is? It's like Hollywood makes it very easy. He's become a Hollywood figure. So I think it glosses over the true atrocities that he did. Like he murdered his own girlfriend. He did. And he murdered his own right-hand man's girlfriend,

like made him help him do it. Oh, maybe that did. Steve Riefelman-Flemming. Is that what I'm thinking of? Yeah, I mean, he definitely like murdered women. And he did it in pretty. And he would like strangle them too, which is, again, interesting.

They think she may have been strangled. So she thinks this could be that, and maybe that's why we're not identifying her, because she's not from here. The New York Times reported, quote, tales of his exploits were learned from childhood there, how he shot men between the eyes, stabbed rivals in the heart with ice picks, strangled women who might betray him, and buried victims in secret graveyards after yanking their teeth to thwart identification. That is 100% true. If you grew up here, you grew up hearing tales of Whitey Bulger.

Ruthie Literally, like there was like a Whitey Bulger, like a book about like him on my summer reading. Bekkah Oh yeah, yeah. Black mass probably. Ruthie Maybe. Bekkah Was it black mass? Ruthie I don't think it was. It was, I don't know. I'll think of it later. Bekkah But yeah, so Sandra Lee actually thinks he's the guy. She thinks that's who did it. Ruthie I mean, I think you're right. It does have legs. It's

never been proven that she isn't one of his victims. They haven't been able to prove she is. And I also haven't been able to prove she is. People hoped he would confess to it, but when he was arrested, but like he was beaten literally to an unrecognizable pile of meat by inmates in West Virginia, October 30th, 2018, when he was 89 years old. He literally entered prison and they literally just beat him to shit. So he didn't exactly get a chance to admit it,

which is kind of a bummer. Kind of a bummer and actually kind of interesting that like inmates beat him to death because you know how there's a hierarchy in prison, you would think a mob boss would be on top. You would think. I don't know if that's what he was so horrific. Like, I don't know. It's a weird, it's a weird, uh, it's a weird flex there. I don't know. I mean, he's a really bad guy. So like, yeah, he was, I mean,

he was 89 at the time. He had also been on the lamb for so long. Maybe it was like they were pissed that also been on the lam for so long. Maybe it was like They were pissed that he got away with it for so long. I don't know. Who knows either way. He really got it But I really would have preferred him to be able to maybe Get convinced to like admit a few things I just feel like there's had many things to there's some families families that I think would have liked to hear some closure and stuff. So it's like, that's a bummer. Yeah, exactly. That's why like prison justice,

sometimes you're like, okay, but like, I would have liked to get some information. So like, you know, it works when you're like throwing hot water over Daniel Morcombe's killer. Exactly. Or like tattooing, doing Katie's revenge on that guy's forehead when he killed the little I've ever heard. I'm like, all right, do that. It can still talk. Feel free. But like, yeah, this is just tough. But yeah, so that's, that's possibly who it could be. Okay. There's another one. Um, in 2000, a serial killer named Hayden Clark confessed to the murder of the

ladies of the dunes. Okay. He confessed from prison while he was serving two 30-year sentences for the murders of a six-year-old girl named Michelle Doar and a 23-year-old woman named Laura Hotelling. He claimed he killed up to 12 women and he said he buried some of the evidence on his grandfather's property, like in his garden on the Cape. That's a dick move. And Clark explained that he had buried evidence from the Lady of the Dunes crime in his grandfather's garden on the Cape.

So did we go there? And he said he knew the woman's identity, but he was not going to tell authorities because he said they were mean to him. So he's not going to tell them. It's really not their job to like make you feel super welcome. So you know, yeah. So he led police on December 15th, 2002, his grandfather's former property, and they did dig in the garden and did find a big plastic bucket filled with more than 200 pieces of jewelry.

Interesting. Among these things were Laura Hotelling's high school class ring. So he was telling the truth that he buried some of his murder victims things in there. He said they were literally trophies to him. Like he did that for a reason. But they couldn't connect anything to the lady of the dunes because they don't know who the fuck she is. So any of that jewelry could be her jewelry. Right. And we don't know. Police don't believe him though, because one, there's no physical evidence that they can connect to him. And then also he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. And so it's hard for him to tell reality from fantasy. Right. And he has moments where he is telling a story and spinning a yarn

and it becomes a fantasy. Sure. So they think maybe this was just him. It happens all the time that these people in prison who are there for atrocities will confess to other crimes like Henry Lee Lucas, Otis Tool. They did the same thing. They just like to do it. Honestly, it's just to fuck with the investigators. It's just to fuck with people and it's like mental illness. So they were like, this just isn't really credible. So they were like, yeah, we're not going to be able to really do much with that. This whole fucking case is so frustrating. And then there's my favorite theory. Oh, in 2015, Stephen King's son, Joe Hill, had a theory.

He wrote in a blog post that he believed that the lady of the dunes can be seen alive as an extra in Jaws. Oh my god, how did I forget about this? I literally knew that this was a thing, but the entire time we were doing this, my brain just forgot that piece of life. And he said in his blog post, what if the young murder victim no one has ever been able to identify has been seen by hundreds of millions of people in a beloved summer classic and they didn't even know they were looking at

her." And he said, what if the ghost of the lady of the dunes haunts Jaws? That freaks me the fuck out. There is a woman who looks just like the sketches and composites and is wearing Wrangler jeans and a blue bandana. I mean, hello. But there's a lot of women at that time that dressed exactly like that. Yeah.

So he said, quote, This particular woman bears a shocking resemblance and appearance and wardrobe to the murder victim. Suddenly I tingled all over and came halfway out of my seat. And for the barest of a moment, I thought I had seen her. Now Jaws had been filmed two hours away from the crime scene, so not that far away. They had never recorded the names of their extras. Oh, shit.

And a lot of locals were extras. Like, they would just show up and agree to appear in the final cut. Yeah. So police are skeptical, but they said, they are not gonna say it's not possible that that is her. mean, of course a lot of women dress like that at the time But the fact that this woman looks like her looks like her in the blue bandana is that's a big one And did they ever find like a bathing suit top or anything? No, they didn't find anything like that. I know that's what's weird

And and so Joe Hill said quote part of me thinks that my subconscious mind is so programmed, so trained to quickly generate ghost stories that that's all I've done here. Because he is Stephen King's son. I was going to say that is true. But Jaws screenwriter Carl Gottlieb checked his production notes and he said this scene number 130 with the extra that they're talking about was filmed May 25th, 1974, two months before and only a hundred miles away from where she was found. Interesting.

She would have been alive. Right. Two months is like a long time before. Like, but I mean, she could have been there. Yeah, she could have just been there. Right. I know. I'm thinking of her as like a vacationer.

Yeah. And she might have just been living there. Well, and then in 2019, investigators said that they were going to re-examine the case, trying to use new techniques. They were going to use DNA analysis and genealogical family building sites to try to do it. This is the same kind of thing they used with the Golden State Killer case. It's becoming a real valuable thing for these kinds of cases. And Cape and the Island DA, Michael O'Keefe said, quote, we're going to examine everything we can with respect to the remains. Now, I'm just going to leave you with one exciting possible thing.

American Horror Story Season 10 is being filmed in Massachusetts, and it has hinted at a Lady of the Dunes storyline, possibly as a subplot. So I did, I like combed Reddit for some theories about this too, because they are really good at like finding these things. They are filming in P town. They are filming in P town. Do you think Billie Lord is in P town? Yeah, I think she was.

And Murphy, Ryan Murphy said quote, he like put something on his social media that said quote something's washing up on the shore. Something like that. And then tease the photo with two hands on the beach. And as we said, a big part of this was her missing two hands. And Murphy has teased out more teasers that have teeth in them. I mean, if it's not like the main thing, because either way, this is set in Massachusetts,

so I'm excited in P-Town, I'm excited to see what it is. I wonder if there's like a Tony Chop Chop part or anything. But either way, it could definitely be like a subplot. They always put those little nods. Well, then you have to wonder, is it going to be in the 70s? Because, oh my god, I love to watch shit that is set in that time period. I bet it is. I wonder. I need to know., is it going to be in the seventies? Because oh my God, I love to watch shit that is set in that time. I bet it is. I wonder. I need to know.

So I'm excited to see. I love American Horror Story. So good. I would love to see it. And that is the very frustrating tale of the lady and the, of the dunes that we don't know who she is. Someday I think we're going to update you guys. I'm going to manifest it. I think we're going to do it. I think we're gonna update you guys. I'm gonna manifest it. I I think we're gonna do it. I think we're gonna solve it. I think we so far we have a good squad We got Johnny and Tyler up in Canada Sarah Turney. Yeah girl. Come on So I know you can get shit done. Bailey Sarian Bailey Sarian get over here. Make me look good while we investigate this, please

Yes, and yeah, we're I I think we're going to do this. Let's get it friends. We'll add some more. Don't worry. For sure. Who else should be on the squad? Everyone is going to volunteer. You know what?

Jordan from the nighttime podcast. He's up in Canada too. We got him. Maybe he can find the woman. Canada squad. All right. I'm ready for this guys. If you're in, you're in.

We'll tag you soon. And, uh, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But it's weird that you don't sign up to be part of our squad to finally solve this case. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+, in the Wondery app, or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.