Morbid - Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey weirdos, before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery Plus. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad-free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us, if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad-free only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or

Starting point is 00:00:25 an Apple Podcast or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. It do be. Sorry, I had to swallow spit before I said that. Apologetic I am. Okay. Okay, Dr. Seuss. I was thinking Yoda. Apologetic. Oh, yeah, yeah. Did you just hear that? I just said, Yada instead of Yoda. Oh, I gotta go.

Starting point is 00:01:08 Yada. Baby Yada. My boy Yada. My boy Yada, Yada, Yada. Yada, Yada, Yada. I like that. I feel delirious today. Yeah, we didn't get a lot of sleep last night in my house.

Starting point is 00:01:16 I'm not really sure why. Like nothing happened that upset anyone. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Starting point is 00:01:24 I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I feel hilarious today. Yeah, we didn't get a lot of sleep last night in my house. I'm not really sure why. Nothing happened that upset anyone to their degree of not being able to sleep. Just a restless night. Restless night for everyone. I hate that. Not for me. Yeah, it was like mass hysteria in my house. I don't know what happened.

Starting point is 00:01:38 Damn. I mean, you have kids. That's just like life with children every day. I, last night, had a terrifying moment that like nothing became of it but it's pretty underwhelming. But I'm trying to, let me talk about it. I'm trying to sleep with the TV off because all my life, my entire life I have slept with the TV on and it's like not great for you and I do notice a better sleep with it off. So yeah, I've been trying to do that. But before I went to sleep, not last night, even the other night, I saw this TikTok from the

Starting point is 00:02:11 Appalachian mountains of the, and it's, I don't know, like who knows what's real and what's not anymore. This will do it. This will fucking do it. Yeah, this will do it. As soon as you said the Appalachian TikTok, I said, Oh yeah. Have you ever seen you guys out there, because I already talked to Elena about this. And I confirmed I have. Have you ever seen those videos where people are like, oh my God, just sitting in my bedroom and I see these creatures in my backyard staring at me. And it's these fucking terrifying, almost dementor, but scarier looking things with like long black hair and like white nightgown sort of, or like maybe just like white skin, like a biskin sort of.

Starting point is 00:02:50 Abyss skin. Abyss skin. Abyss skin. You know? I like that. Just floating and like staring at you. But a biskin. It's just like that, but like just staring at you, like they're going to pretty much kill you.

Starting point is 00:03:01 Yeah. So I got one of like a couple of those TikToks and fucking drew. It's our, it's our cute little thing at night. We lay in bed and we scroll TikTok, but that was a horrible one to end on. And then in the middle of the night, I woke up and it was of course, ready, ready? Say it with me. 3am. Oh, 3am.

Starting point is 00:03:18 Sorry. Yeah, that's fine. I was like pitch black. We didn't prepare this. Sorry. I'm, I get, I'm tired. I'm not on point. You were like, we didn't prepare this. Sorry, again, I'm tired. I'm not on point. It was 3 AM, of course.

Starting point is 00:03:28 And it was pitch black, so you were on the right thing there. And then I just was convinced that there was going to be those ladies in my room. And I got so scared. And I woke Drew up, and I was like, give me the clicker. I don't blame you on that one. Now I'm just, I was on the treadmill this morning, fucking terrified that they were behind me.

Starting point is 00:03:46 Oh man. There's like two empty rooms behind me, which I don't love when I'm on my treadmill. Yeah. I need to like move it so there's a wall behind me. Yeah. And you don't want empty space. I'm paranoid about Appalachia.

Starting point is 00:03:56 You know, aren't we all? Yeah. I think that's valid. I think people in Appalachia would tell us we're doing the right thing. Let us know. I'm paranoid about it. Let us know. Because you hear, even if it's like, I think people in Appalachia would tell us we're doing the right thing by being paranoid about it. Let us know.

Starting point is 00:04:07 Because you hear, even if it's like folklore to me is like top notch horror. Folklore is fucked. It's very interesting, but man, it'll getcha. It'll getcha. And Appalachia is like just lousy with folklore. Lousy. Like the whole like, if you hear, they'll be like, if you hear, you know, a whistle outside, you better get inside. And it's like, and then you'll be like, why? And

Starting point is 00:04:32 they're like, can't tell you, can't tell you. And you're like, ah, and then they're like, that's so much scarier. Johnny boy here knows why. And then you're like, Johnny boy, why? And he's like, I've been sworn to secrecy. He actually just shakes his head because he doesn't even talk anymore. Yeah, that's it. His ordeal. You're like, why don't you talk? And he's like, I can't tell you. He just shrugs at you. Yeah. And he throws away the key. And here's the thing. I respect it. I respect it so deeply. I respect it so hard, but you know where you're not going to find me? Appalachia. No baby.

Starting point is 00:05:04 No baby. Oh, I'm even like freaked out now just that we talked about it and it's the middle of the day. Yeah. Anyway, I don't think I'll be sleeping with the TV off anymore. Yeah. I mean, you gave- I really tried. You gave healthy sleeping habits a try and it didn't work out. Oh my God. Also, just another thing about me. Sorry, I'm really self-serving lately. Take it back. You know, whatever. You know that? Did you talk about that alarm clock on here that we were talking about together?

Starting point is 00:05:31 Or was that a private conversation? I know we had a private conversation about it. We have so many conversations and I'm like, which one was private and which one was on air? Yes. It's not private. It's just she found this really cool alarm clock. Yes.

Starting point is 00:05:43 Can I tell you all about it? Do you mind if I encroach on you? No, no, I motioned at you. You did. It's just she found this really cool alarm clock. Yes. Can I tell you all about it? Do you mind if I encroach on you? No, no, I motioned at you. It's your discovery. So I'm telling you guys, I've been researching like sunrise alarm clocks for months and months and months. And they just intrigued me the idea. It's the idea is that you are waking up not to like, and like jolting you out of deep sleep. Instead, what sunrise alarm clocks do is they have a warm sunrise effect that happens, like a light, and it slowly rises and gets brighter like a sunrise. And also you can set it to like birds chirping, or like a bubbling brook or something, you know what I mean? Like something very, just

Starting point is 00:06:21 very calm. Peaceful. And I was intrigued by this idea because it tricks, it basically like makes your circadian rhythm go into like a lighter sleep for a bit. And then it will wake you when you're out of that lighter sleep. So when you wake up, you feel more rested. Because it's a more natural way to wake up. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:06:42 And so I was intrigued by it. I was reading all this stuff about it and I was like, you know what? I'm going to give one a try because I really fucking hate waking up to a jarring alarm. And I was waking up like pissed. So I immediately like, fuck this. So I tried it and I got the Phillips one and it was like a Christmas birthday present to myself. I was like, let's do this.

Starting point is 00:07:04 Let's wake up with the goddamn sun. And so- She's natural. I'm natural. Guys, it fucking works. And I'm telling you, it is the most refreshed and calm I have ever woken up in my life. And I've done it for like almost a week now.

Starting point is 00:07:22 It is lovely. You just wake up and you don't know why you're waking up because you don't hear anything. Yeah. And then when you do hear something, it's just birds tweeting. You know what? That must be fucking great. I wouldn't know. Yeah. I wouldn't know. Why wouldn't you know?

Starting point is 00:07:37 I got one. Yeah. And I set it all up last night, but my dumb ass didn't realize that I set it up in military time. Oh, I did that too at first. How do I change it? I can show you how to change it. I need you to tell me how to change it because I set it, I set it.

Starting point is 00:07:51 I set it. I don't know why I just said it like that. Leave it in. I set it and I made it, you know, 9 p.m. because that's the time it was. And then when I woke up at 3 a.m. and was like, oh God, there's an Appalachian woman in my room. It was like 15 o'clock and I was like, what? I was so confused.

Starting point is 00:08:11 You're like, wait, there's an Eldritch Horror in my world. And then you're like, and it's 15 o'clock? What? I was like, I'm in an alternate universe. Shit. Shit! But, but... And at 3 a.m. I wasn't gonna, I, you know, I came to after I was like, don't do a universe fuck! I was like, oh, military time, don't know how to do that. And I also was like, I'm not fixing this problem at 3 a.m. So I just set my regular stupid alarm on my phone and woke up to like, did it, did it,

Starting point is 00:08:41 did it, did it. See, it's bad. I was angry. It was angry. I can teach you how to take it out of military time, but if you ever need to tell military time, you just subtract two. So 15 o'clock would be like,

Starting point is 00:08:53 You take it from the five. So five, three, two, it's three o'clock. Oh, you know who's told me that? 740 bajillion times, Drew. And every time I come across military time, I don't remember that. The only reason I know how to use it is when I was taking criminal justice classes. And they made you do like fake police reports and they would make you do it in military time. Here's the thing though, I don't want to do math. I just want to know what time it is.

Starting point is 00:09:20 That was my problem was I looked over and I realized it was military time before I went to bed. And I was like, oh, I'm not doing math in the middle of the night. So I was like, no, no, I need to just set that. I figured out how I'll help you. Yeah. It's, it's a little bit complicated, but I, you know, I'm looking forward to waking up with the sun. It's worth it in my own time. I'm telling you guys, it's very worth it. It has changed my wake up feelings. I'm excited. We'll talk, you know, we'll have a private conversation. Yeah. And maybe we'll forget we had that. Yeah, we'll get there.

Starting point is 00:09:48 We'll have it again. Um, low key we can, we can get into it now. I was, I was putting it off a little bit because we are covering, if you, you know, have clicked on this episode, you know, that we're covering Rodney Alcala, the dating game killer. Yeah. I had a very surface knowledge of this case. Like, and when I tell you so surface, it was barely even, you know, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:10:11 I think a lot of people do. Yeah. Myself included. Yeah. So I saw, you know, that movie and I was like, oh, cool. Like that's an interesting case. I'd like to cover that. So I told Dave and Dave was like, are you sure?

Starting point is 00:10:22 And I said, yeah. We should have known then. We should have known then. It's obviously a case that should be told because these people deserve to have their story told. Of course it is brutal. It is very gruesome. Uh, a lot of these women were unfortunately raped. So we're going to, that that's something we're going to be talking about.

Starting point is 00:10:43 Um, so I am going to break this up, I think, into three parts. Yeah. Just, you know, it makes it a little easier to digest in smaller parts. And there's a lot. And there's a lot to cover. Yeah. So this is gonna be part one.

Starting point is 00:10:54 Part one, I think, is definitely gonna be a little bit shorter than parts two and three, but it kind of sets the scene. So let's start even somewhat kind of in the middle I would say. And a lot of people will know this as the dating game killer case. So that's where we're starting. Yeah. When Cheryl Bradshaw appeared on the popular game show The Dating Game in 1978, she was very charmed by bachelor number one Rodney Alcala. And by the end of the episode, she had actually chosen to pick him as her date. But just minutes after the end of the episode, she had actually chosen to pick him as her date.

Starting point is 00:11:25 But just minutes after the episode finished taping, she actually met him in person backstage. And she was immediately uncomfortable and actually quickly contacted producers of the show to cancel the date immediately. This is the craziest part to me. It was just a gut instinct she had. And it just, I don't know what happened

Starting point is 00:11:44 during that conversation, but something struck her and she went with her gut, which you have to applaud. Thank goodness she did. She called the contestant coordinator Ellen Metzger, I believe is how you say her name, the day after filming. And she said, Ellen, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off of him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Is that going to be a problem? Luckily, Ellen was like, nope, is not going to be an issue at all. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. She said, trust your gut girl, that's fine. Now, what Cheryl Bradshaw didn't know at that time was that in canceling the date, she had narrowly avoided spending an evening in the company of one

Starting point is 00:12:20 of America's most notorious serial killers. At the time of his appearance on the dating game in 1978, Rodney Alcala was already a convicted sexual predator, which just goes to show you, you know, what work went into vetting people back then. Yeah, that's what's so horrifying. Yeah, he had already served time for sexual assault and also had avoided a charge of attempted murder on a small technicality. And was able to be a contestant on this show. SONIA That's unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:12:51 MADDIE Luckily times have changed. SONIA Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January brings you 365 blank pages just waiting to be filled. In 2025, maybe you're ready for a plot twist. I am. Or maybe there's a part of your story that you've been wanting to revise. There's a part of my story that I can't wait to revise. Life isn't about resolutions that fade by February. It's about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life. And guess what? You can think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create

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Starting point is 00:15:25 get 30% off your first Littlespoon order. After his arrest though, investigators would learn that by the time he did appear on the game show, he was also a killer. He had killed many women at that point. In the year that followed, Alcala would go on to murder several other women until he was finally caught and luckily, I'll tell you right at the top, convicted for his crimes. Thank goodness. Ultimately, he was found guilty of eight murders and various other crimes, but he is suspected of many other murders. Some people believe as many as a hundred or possibly even more.

Starting point is 00:16:01 Jesus. Yeah, he is vicious. Ugh. Luckily, he's dead. Thank goodness. I just say you sometimes you got to give you that right at the top. Rest in distress. Rest in distress. You absolute piece of shit. Yup. So let's go back to his, you know, roots, I guess. Yeah. Even though we don't want to. Rodrigo Rodney Alcala Bucor, I believe is how you say his last name, he was born August 23rd, 1943 in San Antonio, Texas. He was one of four children born to Ana Maria Gutierrez and Raul Alcala Bucor. By all accounts, the family enjoyed a

Starting point is 00:16:39 pretty normal middle-class life in San Antonio. All of the Alcala children attended Catholic school and Rodney did really well in school. He worked really hard, he maintained really great grades, like no warning signs really. Yeah. None of Rodney's teachers would ever remember him being a problem student. Actually on the contrary, they said that he was considered respectful and kind and they all said that he was among the most intelligent children in the class. Wow. Crazy.

Starting point is 00:17:08 Now in 1951, Rodney's grandmother did sadly become terminally ill and she wanted to return to Mexico to live out her final years. So the family packed up everything they owned and they moved across the border. Despite the obvious differences, you know, in culture and everything, it seems like life in Mexico was pretty happy for the Alcala family, at least for the first few years.

Starting point is 00:17:29 In 1954, when Rodney was just 11, his grandmother, who he had always been really close to, ended up passing away. And of course, that left a giant hole in the family structure. Yeah, of course. passing was then soon followed by the a very abrupt departure of Rodney's father who just left the family one day and decided to return to the US. Oh. Like he left them with absolutely nothing. He was the provider of the family. What the hell? Left them with like nowhere to live, left Anna Maria to figure it all out and all of those kids were just left without a father. Wow. And Rodney was 11. Holy shit. What is interesting though, is that obviously, I'm sure these experiences were disruptive to him

Starting point is 00:18:11 to some degree, and especially all the kids, but for some reason, he seemed pretty unaffected by both of these things. His grandmother dying and his father just leaving the family. And that's like a little concerning in and of itself. Yeah, definitely. Not that you want somebody to be like traumatized

Starting point is 00:18:27 by these things. No, but you want it to make- You want it to be like wholly unaffected is like interesting. Yeah, I feel like you would be concerned. Yeah. But it was also a very different time. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:38 So it kind of went without notice. After graduating from high school in 1960, Rodney followed his older brother's footsteps and he decided to join the US Army. So he relocated to boot camp in North Carolina where he trained as a paratrooper and also took on additional clerical work. In 1962, while he was training in North Carolina, North Carolina, I think that's what happened. And then I was like, don't do that. I feel like damn. While he was training there his father actually passed away unexpectedly. Even though you know Raoul just abandoned the entire family almost 10 years earlier at that

Starting point is 00:19:13 point his passing obviously affected his family pretty deeply. But just like with his grandmother's passing years earlier Rodney seemed pretty unfazed. been set for him, but that all changed one evening in 1963. His mom was at her home in LA making dinner and Rodney just showed up unexpectedly at her door, which was very strange because he had to have hitchhiked more than 3,000 miles from North Carolina. Whoa. Yeah. Which, you know, was strange in and of itself. Yeah. But even more uncharacteristic was the fact that he just up and left the military base with no permission. So he was technically AWOL. Yeah, I was going to say that's a very bad thing. Yeah. So Anna Maria was able to convince her son to turn himself in at the nearest recruitment station. And there he was evaluated by an army psychiatrist, who at that point determined that

Starting point is 00:20:22 Rodney was actually in acute psychological distress and had him admitted to the nearest hospital for psychiatric treatment. Oh boy. But this seemed to have come out of nowhere. Initially he was treated just at a regular hospital in San Francisco, but he was soon transferred to a military facility just outside of Irvine, California. And he was admitted for more long-term inpatient treatment at that point. Now, the triggering event for all of this,

Starting point is 00:20:50 essentially his breakdown, remains unclear. But even at that time, there were allegations of sexual misconduct on his part. So I don't know if he did something. And I don't know that he necessarily would have regretted it. But maybe it was just overwhelming to have done something awful for the first time, who knows. But after months of treatment

Starting point is 00:21:11 it became clear that he would no longer be able to keep up with his responsibilities in the military. So in February of 1964 he was given a medical discharge and at that point, a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder listed as chronic slash severe. Wow. So this is like well documented. Super well documented. Yeah. Crazy thing about this case is that there are so many things that are well documented, but he just flies under the radar and ends up on the dating and upon the dating game is able to get off of things on like a weird technicality just very strange. Yeah, it's very odd. After being released from the hospital though, he returned to his mother's house in Los Angeles and he just started taking courses at California State University like nothing ever happened. Okay,

Starting point is 00:22:00 pal. Given his past success in school and his IQ, which was reported to be around 140, which is actually right about where the genius category starts. So he was exceedingly intelligent. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he's, he hasn't had any trouble in that area. No, not at all. He had no trouble with his coursework,

Starting point is 00:22:16 and after that he transferred to UCLA, where he ended up graduating with a bachelor's degree in 1968. Wow. Now free of academic obligations, he embarked on the next phase of his life, where he had a lot more free time. I think that's where things went really wrong.

Starting point is 00:22:32 In between being released from the hospital and getting his degree, though, Rodney did attack one of his first documented victims, Morgan Rowan. Fortunately, she was able to escape him not once, but twice. Really? Yes. In 1965, she was hanging out in the parking lot of a teen nightclub with some friends. And that's when she first saw Rodney. Nothing seemed off about him

Starting point is 00:22:55 in that moment. In fact, she actually thought he was pretty attractive, thought he was charismatic. So sorry, how old was he around this time? I think he's like early 20s, probably 22 at this point. And he's in a teen nightclub. Yeah, he's outside of a teen nightclub. Very Rodney. Just a grown ass man outside a teen nightclub.

Starting point is 00:23:14 Nothing nefarious about that. Yep. I'm not worried at all at this point. No. Just kidding. I'm very worried. So worried you should be. So he and Morgan kept making eye contact and eventually they're two, it seems like maybe he was with a group and she was with a group. And then they kind of like became one group. Yeah. And they all started chatting. Eventually the two of them split off from this big group and they made their way

Starting point is 00:23:35 into an alley near the club. Okay. Everything very quickly turned once Rodney got Morgan away from this group. He immediately got very rough with her. He hit her head against the wall, immediately knocking her unconscious. Luckily, before anything could escalate any further, she did come to and was able to scream, which then alerted the owner of the nightclub and his wife who came running out to help her. But in the shuffle of all that, he was able to run away, like get out of dodge

Starting point is 00:24:03 before anybody even saw him. What a piece of shit. Yeah. So fucking crazy. Morgan runs into Rodney again three years later in the summer of 1968. I hate this. This was during her going away party. She and her family were actually going to be moving from California to New York. So her friends decided to take her out for one last celebration altogether on the Sunset Strip. There was a big group of people and while they were out, Rodney happened to join the group by chance because he's living around that area and Morgan said she immediately felt creeped out. She was very nervous. She and her friend sat in a car waiting

Starting point is 00:24:40 to head wherever they were going next. Rodney ended up slipping in behind the wheel and was like, oh, I'll give you guys a ride to wherever you're going next. No. I don't know if it was like a situation where maybe somebody was drinking, so he drove that car. He was being the designated. But he hopped behind the wheel and he was like,

Starting point is 00:24:56 oh, why don't we all head to my house? Like, I've got some weed, we can all smoke together. And of course, nobody else knows what happened. So they're like, yeah, sure, sounds good. And it's the time period, remember. It's the time period. It's like, these are like kind of like hippie people, you know, everybody's laid back. Everybody's laid back. Exactly. It was California, dude. Yeah. Hollywood. So once there with everybody smoking and kind of distracted,

Starting point is 00:25:17 he took the opportunity to get Morgan alone and ended up bringing her into his bedroom. It sounds like forcibly. And I'm just gonna kind of do an overview of this just because the details of a lot of this is very intense like in most of these cases. So I'm just kind of gonna give like an overview. He did physically and sexually assault her and actually pulled a knife on her during the attack. Her friends at a certain point probably heard something and also realized that she was gone for too long, so they started pounding on Rodney's closed

Starting point is 00:25:49 and locked door to try to help her. But it actually took one of her friends breaking Rodney's bedroom window and entering that way for Morgan to escape a second time. Oh my god. So she escaped him twice. And it was like she had to go through a lot to escape him. Yeah, she was assaulted in a big way, like awful. He's very, very aggressive. He's super aggressive. Oh, that's awful.

Starting point is 00:26:12 No, she didn't end up reporting this attack because her family was leaving for New York the next day. She was overall just too scared. And like we were saying, these are like kind of like hippie people. She was saying she didn't feel like she was gonna be believed. I was gonna say, and they'd probably just be like, well, you went to the house, like

Starting point is 00:26:27 especially in that time. I mean, they would do that now, but back then even more so they'd be like, well, you went to the house and you were smoking weed and you weren't like, you know, I mean, it would all be her fault. It would be very much you put yourself in the situation. Yeah. Even though she didn't and even like you should never, that should never be the case. No, don't be. But sadly she, she was terrified after this. She said she slept in bed with her parents after this. Oh that breaks my heart. Once they moved to New York and

Starting point is 00:26:52 then she later learned you know a lot of different crimes that he committed and carried a lot of guilt for not reporting him. Yeah. Which it's like girl that is not on you. No. He is the monster. No. Now this next attack is on a young girl who's eight years old so again it's it's brutal and I'm just gonna give you an overview of it. Thank you. So just three weeks later a little past 8 a.m on the morning of September 25th 1968 eight-year-old Tali Shapiro left her family's temporary home at the Chateau Marmont and just started making her way to school. She's eight. Eight years old, like a tiny babe. Unbeknownst to her parents, since they moved to the hotel a

Starting point is 00:27:34 few months earlier, Tali had been getting up early and actually walking to her elementary school instead of taking the bus like she was supposed to. It's probably just a fun adventure for her. She obviously didn't know any better. GINNY And different time. STACEY Very different time. INTRO MUSIC You sign up for something, you forget about it after the trial period ends, and then you're charged month after month after month after month. My god. The subscriptions are there but you're not using them. In fact, I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. I probably had about 472 but thanks to Rocket Money, now I can see all my subscriptions

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Starting point is 00:28:57 Whoa! And cancels subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. UFO lands in Suffolk, and that's official, said the News of the World. But what really happened across two nights in December 1980, when US servicemen saw mysterious lights in the forest near RAF Woodbridge and claimed to have had a close encounter with an actual craft? Encounters, a new podcast available exclusively on Wondery+, takes a deep dive into one of

Starting point is 00:29:37 the most famous and still unresolved UFO encounters to ever take place in the UK. Featuring shocking testimony from first-hand witnesses, hosts, journalist, podcaster and UFO researcher Andy McGillan, that's me, and producer Elle Scott take us back to the nights in question and examine all of the evidence and conflicting theories about what was encountered in the middle of a snowy Suffolk forest 40 years ago. Are we alone? Encounters is a podcast which is going to find out. Listen to Encounters exclusively in ad-free on Wondry+. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or in Apple podcasts. As she walked to school that morning though, a car pulled up beside her and she heard the driver say,

Starting point is 00:30:24 come on in, I'll give you a ride to school. No. But her parents had advised her many, many times that she was not supposed to talk to strangers. They instilled that in her. So she declined the offer and was like, I'm not supposed to talk to you. Like, leave me alone. But Rodney, because it's Rodney, told her, I'm not a stranger. I know your parents. Oh my god, fuck this guy. Yeah. told her, I'm not a stranger, I know your parents. Oh my God, fuck this guy. Yeah, obviously he did not know Tali's parents,

Starting point is 00:30:47 but he had seen her and her parents at the Chateau Marmont because he had also been living there recently. I hate this so much. To convince her even more to come with him, he was like, you know what? I actually have a beautiful photo to show you, like it won't take any time at all. No.

Starting point is 00:31:03 In 1968, Los Angeles, and California in general, had yet to undergo the very dark transformation brought about by the Manson family murders. Yeah. So while she knew she wasn't supposed to talk to strangers, Tali Shapiro didn't really get why she wasn't supposed to. The man in the car seemed nice enough,

Starting point is 00:31:20 and he knew her parents, and even lived in the same hotel as they did. Plus, he said he had a beautiful picture to show her. Oh, no. And she's eight years old. nice enough and he knew her parents and woke up early to walk. As he was sitting at a red light across the street, hero of the fucking century good samaritan Donald Haynes watched the curious exchange between this man in the car and the little girl on the sidewalk. And even though he couldn't hear what was being said, he didn't know what the relationship was between them, something about this this whole scene just made him very uncomfortable. He said it was something about the way the girl tried to keep walking and the way the car seemed to follow along slowly trying to keep her attention. Oh that makes me upset. It caught

Starting point is 00:32:11 his eye and he was just like I don't know something's real off about this. But his focus was broken when the light turned green and the car behind him honked which of course he has to go forward. But as he started to drive away he watched as the little girl got into the car. And later he would describe feeling in that moment as a kind of sixth sense or he said, going off one's rocker. Whatever the case, this feeling prompted him to turn his car around and look for the man in that car to see where he was going. This is an amazing man. Like truly good Samaritan of the century.

Starting point is 00:32:43 We need more people like him. It's the it's like what we were saying last episode. Yes. See something, say something, see something. He did something. Yeah. So it took him a few minutes but he soon spotted the vehicle again and actually started following Alcala, Alcala's car a few paces behind and trailed him all the way back to the parking lot at Chateau Marmont. From his vehicle, he watched as Alcala and Tali got out of the car and started walking towards one of the apartments with the little girl following just a few steps behind. Ruthie Kiefer-Giemen-Klein-Milmoth Meanwhile, her parents live in the Chateau Marmont right now. Alicja Dugan

Starting point is 00:33:18 Yes, she is living there. Ruthie Kiefer-Giemen-Klein-Milmoth He's bringing her back to where she lives. Alicja Dugan Yes. So that's why she's like, there's nothing wrong with this. He knows my parents, he's a neighbor. Ruthie K fact that they both lived in the same place added to the fact that she was, or added to the, you know, story of I know your parents. Yeah, of course. So not wanting

Starting point is 00:33:34 to wait any longer and fully aware that he could be very wrong about what he thought was happening. Haynes was like, I don't care. He drove to a nearby payphone and called the police. What a badass. Truly. He told the dispatcher, you might think I'm a little screwy, but I just witnessed something that doesn't look right. I think a man just lured a little girl into his car. And now he and the girl went into his apartment together and they sent a cruiser. Good. Which is actually pretty bonkers for that time period because nobody believed anybody back then, but thank goodness. That's actually shocking. It is. So minutes later, a police cruiser pulled up alongside the payphone and Haynes pointed out the apartment that the man had walked into. And the officer, Chris Camacho, I believe it is, thanked Haynes, walked over to the apartment door and knocked on

Starting point is 00:34:20 the door hard and fast. Again, I'm not going to go into all the details here. They're available elsewhere if you want them. But when the officer was able to make his way in, it was a horrible scene. He ultimately found Tali laying in a large pool of blood coming from her head. It was clear that she had been sexually assaulted, and there was a metal bar across her throat that was effectively suffocating her. Oh my god, he is a fucking monster. He's a monster. She's eight.

Starting point is 00:34:50 She is a baby. I can't even. Oh, I can't even. Like my... So Officer Camacho grabbed a towel from the kitchen counter so as not to disturb any of the evidence, and carefully lifted the bar off of her throat and then checked for a pulse. She was pale, she was badly injured, but Tali was still alive. Holy shit. In the meantime, the occupant asshole, piece of shit, garbage human, motherfucker of the apartment had slipped out of the bedroom window, and Kamacho didn't want to leave Tali alone,

Starting point is 00:35:19 so he ended up just staying in the apartment and waiting for the ambulance, while officers and detectives then spread across the entire neighborhood looking for this creep. Ugh. Tali remained in a coma for over a month at a nearby hospital. Holy shit. But after months of rehabilitation, she was able to return to school and actually lived a pretty normal life. I am so glad to hear that.

Starting point is 00:35:46 Yeah. Once she recovered from all of her physical injuries, the Shapiro family actually moved to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, hoping that a new environment would help her healing process. And the last thing she remembered was entering the apartment, but she said everything that happened after that was and always would be a blank. Oh. She doesn't remember. I am so glad I hope that never comes back to her never ever ever I hope she never that never

Starting point is 00:36:15 resurfaces ever when we say he's a monster he's He's worse. Oh, he's worse than I and the fact that She I mean, she's one of his what we believe to be one of his first victims but it's like that's where you start your criminal activities what a disgusting piece of shit like a pig he's awful i can't i can't even linger on it too long years later though morgan and Tali connected over their shared experiences through letters. And they actually even appeared on the show, I Survived a Serial Killer.

Starting point is 00:36:49 I think in either 2021 or 2022. Oh wow. Yeah. And Morgan said she like felt this like, protectiveness over Tali and that's what connected them. And she even said like, she was sorry to Tali that she didn't report what happened to her. Oh, God. She was like, if I had done that,

Starting point is 00:37:06 maybe it wouldn't have happened to you. But Tali was like, no, it's not you. It's him that did this. Yeah. They became friends. Oh, I love that. I know. I'm so glad something good came out of that.

Starting point is 00:37:15 I know. I wanted to tell you guys that part. Because I'm like, huh. Because again, it's going to get rough. Yeah. So we've got to have those little glimmers there. Los Angeles police detective Steve Hodel, whose name you might recognize. I sure do. He's George Hodel, one of the prime suspects in the

Starting point is 00:37:29 Black Dahlia's case's son. He was assigned to this case and immediately set out learning everything he could about the suspect Rodney Alcala. Because remember, they know his name. This is his apartment. He's renting this apartment. That's blowing my mind. Yeah. Like that's blowing my mind. Like how this went any further. It was like 830 in the morning too. And this girl's just, it's a weekday. On her way to school. Like, you would never expect something that horrible to happen right then. On her way to school. Like Jesus. Now to his surprise, no one at Chateau Marmont seemed to know anything about Alcala personally, but they all described him as a quiet person and not a troublemaker. And that impression-

Starting point is 00:38:11 I wouldn't go that far. Yeah, I know. That impression was echoed by his former classmates and professors at UCLA when Steve Hodel talked to them. One faculty member told Hodel that Alcala, quote, wouldn't harm a fly. Again, I wouldn't harm a fly. Again, I wouldn't go that far. It's like, yeah, we have evidence that he did hurt much more than a fly, actually.

Starting point is 00:38:30 An eight-year-old little girl. Yeah, he sexually assaulted an eight-year-old. So do you want to, you want to suck that one back into your mouth? Essentially tried to kill her. So I hate that shit. I do hate that shit. Don't say that.

Starting point is 00:38:41 Don't say that. When you just heard that this man might be a child rapist, don't say he wouldn't hurt a fly. Exactly. Because that's not true. We can only hope that whoever said that didn't know what he was being accused of. Well, I know it's like the impression of somebody, like I, how many times you hear about something happening and you hear the people be like, holy shit, I had no fucking clue. But it's like, just, you know, be careful of the words that come out of your mouth during those times. Agreed. Uh, more important than what his peers and neighbors thought of him though, was the fact that none of them had seen him recently.

Starting point is 00:39:11 In fact, Hodel could have searched all over California and he never would have found Rodney Alcala because by then Rodney Alcala was thousands of miles away. As Steve Hodel was making the rounds of the UCLA campus to learn about his suspect, Rodney Alcala, now calling himself John Berger, walked into the admissions office at New York University and applied for a spot in the undergraduate film program at the School of Fine Arts. Wow. What a weird next move. You know what I think I'll do? I think I'll take a film class after, you know, terrorizing people in California and a small child. That sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Despite the highly

Starting point is 00:39:49 competitive nature of the program, actually at the time, one of the instructors was the then acclaimed Roman Polanski. And the fact that the semester had already started, Alcala was admitted. Wow. Like he's a charmer. Wow. He's a charmer. Yeah. That just goes to show you. That right there. That's a competitive school. At the time, Roman Polanski was like a very prominent name. Prominent name, exactly. And they're like, yeah, you can take this class.

Starting point is 00:40:15 Wow. What? Damn. Once again, though, he impressed his professors, his peers, who found him to be charismatic, like I just said, and highly motivated student. He's like John Wayne Gacy. Yes. Like, you know, he him to be charismatic, like I just said, and a highly motivated student. He's like John Wayne Gacy.

Starting point is 00:40:26 Yes. Like, you know, he's got that kind of like... He can turn it on, but when it's off, it's all the way off. He's got that smarmy charm. Smarmy charm. Yep. Yep. Admissions chairperson Arlie Mock said of Alcala, there was a quiet determinism that

Starting point is 00:40:39 seemed to pervade everything he did. Outside of class, it appeared that he was similarly successful. He dated casually. Oh, can you fucking imagine? Can you imagine looking back? Absolutely not. Because you'd have no way of knowing. No, you'd never know. That's the thing. Again, he's so charismatic. I mean, somebody just said he wouldn't hurt a fly. He obviously is not showcasing his aggression outside of these things. I mean, again, going back to the beginning of the episode, he was the bachelor who won the dating game, won the date. The things. I mean again going back to the commercial photographer at that time. In every sense he seemed an ordinary but particularly driven student and nobody suspected there was anything dark about him at all. That's so scary.

Starting point is 00:41:32 It's horrifying. That is so scary. Yeah. On the evening of June 12th, 1971 on the other side of Manhattan though, Friends had been trying unsuccessfully to reach Cornelia Michelle Crilley all afternoon. 23-year-old, she went by Michael Crilley as she was known to Friends, had been trying unsuccessfully to reach Okay. Yeah. It's, it was very affordable at the time and young people were all moving over there. Okay. It's kind of like, um, if you're from Boston, like the Brookline, Summerville area. That makes sense. Krilley had spent that spring at the Transworld Airlines campus in Kansas, training to be a flight attendant, and she had just come back to New York. She was super excited to start her career.

Starting point is 00:42:20 So excited to have an apartment of her own was just setting out in the world. According to her boyfriend, Leon Bornstein, Michael was funny, vivacious, had a jaunt in her step, and she had a real joie de vivre. She was also gorgeous, he said. The night before, he was trying to get a hold of Michael by the phone, and after several unsuccessful attempts, he finally went over to her apartment and tried the door, but it was locked. So concerned for her safety, he called the police and an officer was able to access the apartment through a window just off the fire escape. A few miles from the glass spires of Midtown Atlanta lies the South River Forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country,

Starting point is 00:43:12 who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police training facility nicknamed Cop City. At approximately nine o'clock this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual, without warning, shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper. This is We Came to the Forest, a story about resistance,

Starting point is 00:43:34 The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down. love and fellowship, It was probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. and the lengths we'll go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts Follow we came to the forest on the wonder yap or wherever you get your podcasts You can binge all episodes of we came to the forest early and ad-free right now by joining wonder E plus Criley was still in the process of moving in, so the apartment was pretty much empty. But in the bedroom lying on the floor, they found Michael Criley's partially closed body, a stocking tied tightly around her neck. To the investigators, her apartment had all the hallmarks of a targeted

Starting point is 00:44:20 murder. Nothing was missing. There was a small amount of cash and other valuables right in plain sight. There was no sign of a break-in and no sign of a struggle elsewhere in the apartment. And it was obvious that she had been the victim of a violent sexual assault. This is very brutal, I just want to give you a heads up. Her shirt had been stuffed into her mouth and there was saliva and bite marks on both of her breasts. There were also signs of serious trauma to the rest of her body and it was saliva and bite marks on both of her breasts. There were also signs of serious trauma to the rest of her body and it was very clear that she had been raped. I can't imagine what she went through. No. One of the officers asked, and this is horrible, one of the officers asked Leon, her boyfriend, to come into the bedroom to identify her, which is fucking insane.

Starting point is 00:45:03 to identify her, which is fucking insane. SONIA That is beyond. KATE Like we were talking, I forget the blackout ripper, I forget the time period, but it was way, it was during World War II, wasn't it? SONIA Yeah. KATE Yeah. SONIA It was like during the- KATE The 1930s, 40s. SONIA It was literally, and they were being sensitive

Starting point is 00:45:20 to make sure family members didn't see these scenes. KATE They did everything they could and made sure that nobody saw the scenes. These officers pulled him in and was like, can you tell us, is this her? What the fuck? Wild. Who would ever bring, especially like their boyfriend or significant other, any loved one of any kind, to see them in that position? That will ruin you for the rest of your life.

Starting point is 00:45:47 I don't know how you ever recover from seeing someone you love in that position. I would never. You don't. Recover. You don't. We even take great, I don't, that doesn't make any fucking sense to me.

Starting point is 00:45:58 Cause I've done plenty of viewings when I worked at the morgue. We went to great lengths to make sure there was nothing upsetting about, like nothing beyond seeing your loved one dead. But like, we would go to great lengths to make sure there was nothing seen that was beyond what they were already going to see. So like, I just can't, like my brain doesn't wrap around that. Sometimes, especially back then, the NYPD is very similar to the LAPD. I was gonna say that's some-

Starting point is 00:46:31 And you just sit here like question mark, question mark, question mark. That's a state of dumb that I didn't know people existed in. You have to assume that that was like, and you have to almost hope even that that was a rookie who was just real fucking dumb in that moment. You, I mean, lose your fucking job at that point. Like you've just ruined someone for the rest of their lives.

Starting point is 00:46:50 Yeah. Years later, he said, it was a terrible scene. Yeah. Michael's mouth was wide open because rigor mortis had set in and the killer had put something in her mouth to prevent her from screaming. I couldn't even tell it was Michael. She was so disfigured. Yeah. I can't. The fact that they had that guy do that is so messed up. Beyond. So messed up. Wow. But detectives learned from Leon that earlier that day, Michael had been looking for somebody who could help her move two heavy

Starting point is 00:47:15 beds and other furniture up to her apartment. And since some of the furniture appeared to have been moved in by the time she was killed, they theorized that whoever helped her move was probably the same person who killed her. But Leon rejected that theory. He said Michael would have had to have recognized him or known him before she would have let anybody inside. But the coroner took swabs of the saliva and a bite mark impression, but otherwise the body was absent of any other physical evidence that could help identify their killer. Meanwhile, executives at TWA authorized a $5,000 reward for any information leading to an arrest, and a few days later the Professional Airlines Stewardess Association upped that reward by $1,000. Wow. And despite the offer of the reward though, the case quickly went cold.

Starting point is 00:48:01 Wow. quickly went cold. A few days later Michael Curley's funeral was held in Queens and was attended by nearly 1,500 people. This girl was so beloved. After the murder of Michael Curley, Rodney Alcala needed to get out of the city obviously, so in early July he applied for a position as an arts camp counselor at a children's summer camp in New Hampshire. No. No. What the fuck? Stop. What the fuck? But he was using an alias. He was using the name John Berger,

Starting point is 00:48:31 so they wouldn't have known any better. But at the same time, investigators in California still had not given up the search for Tali Shapiro's attacker. And by then, Alcala had actually been added to the FBI's list of most wanted fugitives. And here he is just on the East Coast. Yep. His face and description appearing on wanted posters in federal buildings pretty much everywhere in the US.

Starting point is 00:48:53 Wow. Now, and this is crazy. The amount of times he just like, just by chance somebody sees something in these cases, there's, it's wild. In August, two girls from the camp, they walked a short distance to the post office just to mail some letters back home. It was meant to be a pretty quick trip actually, but by the time they reached the post office, it started to rain heavily. So they were like, let's just wait inside until the rain lets up because we don't want to get soaked on the way back to camp. So they just wandered around the post office. It was a pretty small building. They were looking at the governmental notices on the wall and eventually their

Starting point is 00:49:27 eyes settled on the bulletin board of all the wanted criminals. And one of the faces looked very familiar. According to the notice, the man's name was Rodney Alcala and he was wanted for assault of a child in California, but he looked remarkably similar to their very popular camp counselor, John. Oh my god. Can you imagine? No, I cannot. To be a parent and to later learn that Rodney Alcala was your child's camp counselor. I'd never let my kids do anything again. Never. I feel like we actually live in the house and we never leave. Yeah, we actually have like a bomb

Starting point is 00:50:02 shelter now and we're gonna live there. Sound good. Never leaving. Bye. So the girls dismissed the notice as merely a coincidence. After all, John Berger said he'd come from New York where he'd lived his entire life and he definitely didn't seem like somebody who would hurt a child. He was good to them in that at that camp. But still the resemblance was uncanny. So when they got back to camp they did mention the poster to the camp director. Good. Who was like, you know what, they did mention the poster to the camp director. Good. Who was like, you know what, I'm going to go check that out just to be sure.

Starting point is 00:50:28 Cause I actually give a shit about the safety of children. I love that. At the post office, the camp director stared at the wanted poster for several minutes, just sat there in awe, reading and rereading the information on Rodney Alcala. None of the details matched what he had

Starting point is 00:50:44 been told about John Berger, but he simply could not ignore the fact that that man in the photo was pretty much identical to the counselor he'd hired just one month earlier. And he has a very like... He's got a distinct face. Yeah, it's not like he's, I'm trying to think of like how to describe it, because it's not like he's like, you know, like somebody that you're like,

Starting point is 00:51:04 oh, like how could you ever, like, you know, even like they look like everybody else. He's just got something, he's got very like, it's very like cheekbones are very, he's very reminiscent of Richard Ramirez in that sense. He is very reminiscent. Or he has like very like pronounced cheekbones. He's got like, you know, his eyes are like a certain way. So I understand

Starting point is 00:51:26 because a lot of guys around that time, same haircut, same kind of thing going on. So you'd be like, yeah, I don't know. So the fact that they are so, so sure, like this has got to be that you know he's got to have something about him. I think it's his eyes. His eyes are very... They're dead. And they his eyes. They're dead. And they're scary. There's something evil in those eyes, it feels like. Something is like brimming in those eyes. And I think it's because a lot of the pictures obviously you see are after his arrest. So he just let his facade go completely. But you can also see

Starting point is 00:51:59 how somebody would be like, oh, that guy's harmless. You see him on the dating game. Have you ever seen the clips? I actually, I can't even watch them because it freaks me out. The clips are horrifying. I've seen a couple, but it freaks me out. Because you get why people didn't think twice about him. Again, he is super charismatic. He's very much like in the vein of Ted Bundy that way. I was literally just thinking that.

Starting point is 00:52:20 And I think it's the intelligence level. They know, and they study other people and they see what makes people tick when they talk to others. And what makes people a people. Like they literally just try to kind of duplicate and imitate what they see. And it works because they're highly intelligent.

Starting point is 00:52:38 Yeah. So the director asked the woman at the counter in the post office if he could use the phone. After standing there for several minutes, just going back and forth of his head, you He's like, hi, I'm terrified. Yeah, hi. The agent on the phone took all the details that the director could remember about John off the top of his head, you know, John Berger, the camp counselor, and then instructed the man to return to the camp and act as normal as he could. He was like, you just have to go back to the camp and act like nothing is wrong.

Starting point is 00:53:19 But he emphasized, do not leave him alone with any of the young female campers or any female campers at all. Oh shit. Make sure you act as normal as you can, but you gotta make sure he's not alone with anybody. That would be, hearing that. How do you act normal after knowing that he is possibly wanted in California

Starting point is 00:53:38 for the assault of a child? But thank goodness this guy went this far because I'm glad people intervened here. Yeah, it's wild. It seems like this is a case that's very different from a lot of cases we see. That's the thing, exactly. Now, he didn't have to keep up the facade too long because the next morning a group of FBI agents arrived at the camp and took Alcala into custody without incident. Oh, wow. After comparing his fingerprints with those on file, they knew that they had the right person,

Starting point is 00:54:03 and they called Steve Hodel in Los Angeles, who immediately booked a flight to Boston so he could personally bring Alcala back to California to stand trial. He was like, fuck this guy. Fuck you, I'm bringing you in. Hodel arrived at the local police precinct early on the morning of August 12th,

Starting point is 00:54:19 where he was introduced to Alcala. And as they waited for the extradition paperwork to be completed, Hodel asked Alcala, why? Why did you attack a little child? And in response, Alcala looked expressionless at Hodel and said, I don't want to talk about Rod Alcala and what he did. Oh, please. That's it. Please. And that is where we're going to end for part one. God. Yeah. We're gonna talk about, you know, his arrest, a conviction and his eventual release in part two. So get ready for that.

Starting point is 00:54:54 And then so part, there's gonna be a little break between part one and part two, because we have, you know, listener tales, which you'll need as a little palette cleanser. You are gonna need that. Yeah, so part two will be coming out next Monday. We'll do a little listener tales video in between then. So definitely tune in for that.

Starting point is 00:55:08 It will be kind of like a pre-pallet cleanser, I guess. Yeah. Also kind of a post. And again, you'll, you have a lot more after that coming. So yeah. Yeah. So stay tuned. We hope you keep listening.

Starting point is 00:55:20 And we hope you- Keep. It. Weird. But not so weird as any of this. And guys, I know I don't have to tell you that. No, certainly not. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:30 Do keep it as weird as all these good smiridans though who actually called people. Keep it that fucking weird. Keep it real weird like that. All right, bye. Bye. I'm sorry. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Starting point is 00:56:49 Being an actual royal is never about finding your happy ending. But the worst part is, if they step out of line or fall in love with the wrong person, it changes the course of history. I'm Arisha Skidmore Williams. And I'm Brooke Siffrin. We've been telling the stories of the rich and famous on the hit, wonder-y show, Even the Rich, and talking about the latest celebrity news on Rich and Daily.

Starting point is 00:57:11 We're going all over the world on our new show, Even the Royals. We'll be diving headfirst into the lives of the world's kings, queens, and all the wannabes in their orbit throughout history. Think succession meets the crown meets real life. We're going to pull back the gilded curtain and show how royal status might be bright and shiny, but it comes at the expense of, well, everything else. Like your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes even your head. Follow Even The Royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:57:40 You can listen to Even The Royals early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

Morbid - Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)

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