Morbid - Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey Weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network Podcast. Hello, Matt and Alice here, and we're the hosts of Wanderers podcast, British Scandal. We are and our latest series covers one of the century's most controversial and complicated figures, Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder who risks it all in the pursuit of freedom of information and ended up locked up in London.

Starting point is 00:00:38 You might listen to this series and pump the air in support of the little guys exposing the corrupt secrets of governments and militaries around the world. Or you might be filled with fury at the brazen disregard for who gets hurt in that quest. Or you might just get creeped out. While wars in Iraq and Afghanistan raged, Assange was singularly focused on undermining America's narrative of the conflicts by making the truth known. But did his difficult personality and extremely questionable conduct compromise his efforts? Join us in London's Ecuadorian Embassy to find out.

Starting point is 00:01:12 Follow British Scandal Now wherever you listen to podcasts and you can binge entire seasons early and ad-free on OneG+. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Francopone. And in our podcast Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season we're looking at the life of the most famous queen of France, Marie Antoinette. Her death is seemingly more well known than her life, but her journey from the daughter

Starting point is 00:01:40 of the Austrian emperor to becoming the most hated woman in France is just as fascinating. So we're going to look at the ways in which her story was distorted during the French Revolution and dig deeper into her real experiences in a troubled, difficult time. Marie Antoinette is one of the most well-recognized but least well-understood names in history. We're talking about how her death led to the way that she was spoken about in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. Follow Legacy now from wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad free on WunderB plus.

Starting point is 00:02:21 Hey Weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. Brought to you by Allergies. Yeah, what the fuck? It's like winter. I didn't know that allergies existed in the winter. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:02:46 It's not even like winter. It is winter. It's like winter and it literally is. Yeah, I don't have a cold anymore, but I woke up with the worst fucking allergies. And it's not a cold. Yeah, no, she's fauceting. The face is fauceting. Yeah. It just is very infuriating. I feel like you're making me think that I am sniffly, but I don't even know if I am, but I'm now like, it's a weird placebo that's going on.

Starting point is 00:03:10 Yeah. You're feeling sympathy sniffles. Oh my God, I have sympathy sniffles. I'm such an empath. You really are. You're such an empath. And yeah, so I'm not sick, but I might sound a little congested just because- You do, but not bad.... fucking allergies. Yeah. Lilo, not full blown Lilo is here, but I might sound a little congested just because- You do, but not bad.... fucking allergies. Yeah. Lilo, not full blown Lilo is here, but her distant relatives. Yeah, her cousin is here.

Starting point is 00:03:31 Exactly. But I'm not the one who's going to be talking much, so that's good. I am. I'm going to be talking a lot because we are on part two of Rodney Alcala, who is- This case, man. ... such a shit stain. I just have to say at the top of this, I have been having the worst time falling asleep just because of this case. The details are just running through my brain at night

Starting point is 00:03:53 and I need to figure out a way to cope with that. Yeah. This case for you is probably like the Morse murderers This case for you is probably like the Moors murderers were for me. Yeah. Yeah, because I was like invading, like a lot of times it invades my dreams, but like that invaded my dreams in a way that I can't describe. No, that's the thing. And I don't usually do the more brutal cases like you do.

Starting point is 00:04:22 And it's different because I'm not fully submerged and putting them together and then presenting them. This one, obviously Dave helped immensely putting us all together. I don't even know how Dave is sleeping at night. But then I was twisting things around, moving them around. I'm like, Oh God, Jesus Christ. Oh, it's awful. Yeah. But I do this thing where I had this therapist and she told me instead of focusing on, cause like I will, if I have like a thought that I don't want to have, I'm like, no, no, no, like don't think about that.

Starting point is 00:04:51 Don't think about that. Don't think about that. But that just makes it worse because it's like telling a toddler not to do something. It just makes them want to do it more. And I think your brain is essentially a toddler. So I recognize that I'm having that thought and now I'm going to move on to something else. And it does help a little bit. It does help.

Starting point is 00:05:07 So I hope that can also help anybody else out there. I think I've told everybody about my method. I don't know if you have to have a divergent brain for it to work, maybe. You do. You absolutely do. But it literally works for me. I'm not diverse enough.

Starting point is 00:05:22 Yeah, you're not divergent enough. No. But yours is cool. It works. And it could work for the. I'm not diverse enough. Yeah, you're not divergent enough. No. But, yeah. Yours is cool. It works. And it could work for the, you know, the non-neurotypicals out there. Yeah, if you feel it out there, it's... If you picture whatever you're picturing in your head, like it's usually like a visual that will really get me,

Starting point is 00:05:42 like my brain will make a visual or I'll see a visual during research that just like really fucks me up. And like right now, like I just got, whoops, it's there. Like I'm thinking about the Morse Murders and a certain visual is coming into my brain. So right now I'm looking at it and in my brain I have one of those little dry erase board erasers. Yes, erasers. And I'm erasing it.

Starting point is 00:06:06 And it's gone. And if it pops back up, then I say, oh, now we're on a computer, throw it in the trash. I don't have a backup, so I can't see it again. You are interesting. I actually told the girls to do that and that helped my kids. They were having like nightmares.

Starting point is 00:06:24 It was just one night where they had watched something, I think, and we didn't think it was going to be anything that would bother them, but you just never know what's going to stick with a kid. And I think it was like, I can't remember actually, but they were like, oh, that like this one scene in this movie or TV show, like where there was like a wolf or something. They were like, what if there's a wolf in the woods? And I was like, what are you seeing in your head? And they just told me, and I was like, okay. And I was like, you know how on a computer, you can erase something by putting it in the trash?

Starting point is 00:06:54 And they were like, yeah, I was like, put the image in the trash. Maybe I'll try that. And then I was like, did you guys make a backup? Did you save another version of that image? And they were like, what? I was like, did you save another version of that image? Mom, this is the office? And they were like, no. I was like, then you can't see it again because you trashed it. And one of my kids especially was like, that worked.

Starting point is 00:07:14 I love that your brain just always stands on business. Yeah, 100%. You're not a big admin girly, but maybe that's why. Maybe you're doing so much admin in your brain. I am, I'm constantly doing admin in my brain. You're so weird. So yeah, if you don't have a backup of it, you can't get it back. Oh, I have a backup of every horrible memory that I've ever had. Keep throwing it in the trash.

Starting point is 00:07:34 I'll try. And then you empty the trash. Where does it go? You hit that little button that says empty trash and then you say, fuck, I can't get that back. Okay. You know? Yeah, you're a hero, Diwej. Because you know how terrifying that is when you do that with something you need, like you're like,

Starting point is 00:07:48 oh shit, I accidentally forever deleted that. Yeah. That's what you do with those bad images because then you have that moment of like, oh fuck, it's gone and you're like, well, that's gone. I also think you worked a lot of office jobs. I did, yeah. Yeah. And I never worked in office jobs.

Starting point is 00:08:03 And research. Like research. And research jobs, yeah. Yeah. And I never worked in office jobs. And research. Like research. And research jobs, yeah. Yeah. Your brain is, I feel like that's very, very right-brained of you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:12 Right? Yeah. I think you just kind of, it helps. Yeah. It really does. Because it's so, like, it's so clinical. Clinical, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:08:23 That it's an easy way to do it. If you can get your brain in that place to visualize that. I'm going to have to try the trash one because I haven't tried that. Yeah, it takes a minute to visualize that, but once you're able to visualize that, it is very helpful. So anybody out there, if you're having things that pop into your brain that, whatever it may be, I'm not saying it will help you. I'm just saying if you can get yourself in that mindset that you can see that, like putting it into a trash or wiping it with a dry eraser,

Starting point is 00:08:50 go for it. Then it can be helpful. Yeah, or recognize that you're having the thought, let yourself have the thought, and also let it pass. We've given you so many ways to get rid of your yucky thoughts. Yeah. See, yours is very harrowing to me. Like, that's harrowing. That's therapy, babe. Therapy's harrowing. Like, let yourself have the thought, no thank you. Like that's where I- No.

Starting point is 00:09:15 Let yourself have the thought, no. See, for someone like me, if you don't let yourself have the thought, it's just gonna try harder to get into the thought. And see, that's where mine goes, no, don't let yourself have the thought, throw it in the trash. No, I got to let myself.

Starting point is 00:09:28 It's also like weird exposure therapy, I think. I don't know. I love it. Well, that's our brains for you. They're fucking weird. But here we are. You like us if you're listening most of the time. Hopefully.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Sometimes. Most of you anyway. Most of you. So let's get back into it. We're on part two of Rodney Alcala. In part one, we kind of started in the middle talking about Rodney's appearance on the popular show, The Dating Game, and how he was immediately off putting to female contestant Cheryl Bradshaw. We went over Rodney's early life,

Starting point is 00:09:56 how he was abruptly discharged from the military after, I guess you could say some sort of psychotic break it seems. We went over his first attacks on many women. And of course, at the end, his capture in New Hampshire while he was working at a children's summer camp under the name of John Berger. John Berger. John Berger. Isn't that Sex and the City? Isn't his name Berger?

Starting point is 00:10:19 His last name is Berger and they call him Berger. I think his first name is John. Is it John? Now I need to look. You got to look it up really quick. Jack Burger. Oh, Jack. Which probably is John.

Starting point is 00:10:31 Strangely, Jack is a nickname for John, even though they're the same amount of letters. Even though they're the same amount of letters, yeah. I'll never understand that. I'm sorry. I can't. Don't hate me. Don't hate me. Douchebag.

Starting point is 00:10:42 I know. But back to the story. After years of searching for Rodney after the brutal attack on eight-year-old Tali Shapiro, Steve Hodel there had finally captured the man whose crimes had so deeply disturbed everybody familiar with the case, especially Steve Hodel himself. Yeah. However, what should have been a career highlight for Steve quickly turned into an absolute fucking mess and ultimately a very serious disappointment.

Starting point is 00:11:06 So the district attorney's office, yeah, great. The district attorney's office was eager to charge Alcala for the attack on Tali, but there was a problem. The Shapiro family, like I said in part one, had left the country, understandably so. Yeah, got her the fuck away from this. Yeah. And they were difficult to get a hold of, again, understandably so. Yeah. And Tali's parents had spent the previous years doing everything they could to shield their daughter from any further trauma, which included talking about the attack. Yeah, I get it. And the fact that she doesn't remember anything like about that. They don't want to trigger any memories. One, they don't want to trigger any memories. And two, they did their job and they did it correctly because she doesn't have any memories. So whatever her family did for her worked. Maybe it didn't work out in a court sense

Starting point is 00:11:50 right here right now. But it shielded her emotionally from what had happened. Yeah. It made her okay and that's all I care about personally. Yeah, because she's able to speak about what she does remember now, which is like a very... I used the word harrowing before, but that's harrowing to do. It's a, I thought you were going to use that word because it's perfect. But the prosecutor tried to convince the Shapiros to return to LA and allow Tali to testify against Alcala, but the family did not want to put their eight-year-old daughter through that. No. And I don't blame them. I get it. But without their main witness, which also happened to, or who also happened to be Alcala's

Starting point is 00:12:25 accuser, the district attorney had no choice to either offer him a deal or drop the case altogether because it just wasn't going to be as strong. That sucks that that's the option. You either traumatize this eight year old or like lose the case. Like what, that sucks. And it's like, I, like, obviously you can still present the facts without her there until a jury. And of course it's going to be, it's going to drive the point home harder if the actual,

Starting point is 00:12:49 you see the actual girl, it's going to pull on your heartstrings and the whole nine. But honestly, it shouldn't take that. It shouldn't take that. It shouldn't take her sitting in front of you to do that. Exactly. The facts are the facts. But I think they were just worried. Yeah, of course.

Starting point is 00:13:01 And you can understand why. So unwilling to completely drop the case altogether, the DA was willing to allow Alcala to plead to the lesser charge of child molestation, which is fucking insane that that's a lesser charge. That's insane to me. Child molestation is a lesser charge. Like we got it. We got it. We got to do better. We got to do better guys. So he was going to plead to that in exchange for an indeterminate sentence of anywhere from one year to life in prison. So this could go so many ways. That's quite a stretch.

Starting point is 00:13:34 Given the circumstances, which we all know from part one, the prosecutor expected the judge to impose a pretty lengthy sentence, but was absolutely shocked when Alcala was sentenced to one to 10 years with the opportunity for parole after just one year. That's honestly disgusting. It is. And it's despicable. Ultimately, he would serve 34 months in prison for the attempted murder of eight-year-old Tali Shapiro.

Starting point is 00:14:00 This man abducted an eight-year-old and brutally assaulted and tried to murder her. Yep. Yep. What the fuck is wrong with everybody? Would have, if not for a good Samaritan. Literally would have, she'd be gone. Absolutely. 100,000%. So after he was sentenced and was kind of writing out some of a sentence, a prison psychologist deemed him, quote unquote, considerably improved and recommended him for parole in 1974. LS. Well, they should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

Starting point is 00:14:32 KS. Also, yeah, of course he's considerably improved because there's not women and children in prison for him to prey upon. LS. He should, ugh. KS. Considerably improved? There's no temptation for him. LS. Yeah, of course. He can't attack children in there. So how does that even make any sense? LS. That's disgusting. KS. But the parole board's decision to release him after such a short time was obviously frustrating for Steve Hodel, who knew the full extent of what Alcala had done. He said,

Starting point is 00:14:58 my impression was that it was his first sex crime, and we got him early and society is relatively safe now. I had no idea in two years he would be out and continue his reign of terror and horror. I expected he was put away and society was safe. It is such a tragedy that so much more came after that." And he did his job. Yeah, he did everything that he had to do. He tracked him down all the way to New Hampshire. He was waiting, like he was probably looking at this, like he said, like we got him. We got him early. Something awful happened for him to be caught. But hopefully that's the end of it. And no more has to happen. But that's not the story. After his release, Elcala returned to living with his mother in LA and started supporting himself as a wedding photographer. Can you fucking

Starting point is 00:15:42 imagine if this man photographed your wedding? Imagine looking back on your wedding photos and being like, like those poor people, they're victims too. Yeah, like I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah. How do you reconcile that? I don't think you do. I think you have them redone at that point. To the parole board, he seemed to be adhering perfectly to the terms of his parole, but it didn't take long before he gave in to his worst impulses. One afternoon in mid-October, just two months after his release from prison, he was driving around Huntington Beach when he spotted 13-year-old Julie Johnson. He's a f**king monster.

Starting point is 00:16:17 He's a predator. She was waiting at a bus stop outside a shopping center. Just as he had with Tali Shapiro years earlier, he pulled his car up to the sidewalk and offered her a ride. At first, she paid no attention to him. So he put on some charm and he said he had some great posters that he wanted to show her. Which is so fucking creepy. The trick worked though, which you can understand. It's a 13 year old and again, it's a very different time. Julie agreed to go with him on the condition that he drop her off at school. But as they started driving, she noticed that the man who said his name was John Ronald had driven right past her school. And when she pointed that out, he said something about needing to check out an apartment and promised it wouldn't take too long, and then he'd get her to

Starting point is 00:16:58 school. So now concerned that she might be in trouble, she became visibly anxious and she couldn't sit still, which made him yell at her. He started yelling at her. This is horrifying. It's a nightmare. The jarring shift in his tone and the fact that they were getting further and further away from her school started to frighten Julie and she told him to pull over and let her out. But rather than pull over, he steered the car onto the Pacific Coast Highway headed way away from downtown Huntington Beach. Oh my God. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"]

Starting point is 00:17:35 This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like a lot of times we hear about people's red flags. You know, red flags are what we should avoid. But what if we focused more on looking for green flags in friends and partners? Like the good things about them, the way that they show up for you, the way that they do acts of service because that's your love language, or just the way they take care of you. If you're not sure what green flags look like, therapy can help you identify them, actively practice them in your relationships, and embody the green flag energy yourself.

Starting point is 00:18:05 Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back. I feel like in therapy, that was one of the biggest things I learned is what my love language was and what Drew's love language is, because we have completely different love languages. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, BetterHelp is a wonderful, super-duper option. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists, and they have

Starting point is 00:18:36 a wide range of specialties. Discover your relationship's green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. Every 26 seconds a burglary takes place in the U.S. according to FBI data. That means by the time this podcast ends, dozens of homes will have been targeted. Protect your home before it's too late with SimpliSafe's proactive security system. SimpliSafe helps stop threats before they even have the chance to break in. I love my SimpliSafe system. I feel so good arming that thing at night and going to sleep knowing that my home is protected even when I'm sleeping,

Starting point is 00:19:15 even when I'm away. Traditional security systems only take action after somebody has already broken in, and that is too late. But, SimpliSafe's Active Guard outdoor protection can help prevent break-ins before they even happen. AI-powered cameras backed by live professional monitoring agents monitor your property and detect suspicious activity. So many people in my neighborhood have SimpliSafe, and I 10 out of 10 recommend. Visit SimpliSafe.com slash morbid to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simply safe dot com slash morbid. There's no safe like simply safe. When the car finally did come to a stop, they were in a remote area on the Huntington Beach Bluffs, which is about a 15 minute drive from where he picked her up. 15 minutes is such a long time in a situation like that.

Starting point is 00:20:07 Oh my God. That must have felt like a hundred years for her. She tried to run as soon as the door was open, but he caught her by the arm and dragged her to an area near the edge of the Bluffs where he forced her to sit down and smoke a joint with him. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So as he just tried to make small talk with her

Starting point is 00:20:26 at that point on the Bluffs, luckily a park ranger a few hundred yards below them spotted the pair and decided just to head up to see what was going on. Something seemed off to the ranger. I'm so glad people are following their gut instincts with this guy. Because you never hear that. First that Good Samaritan, now this park ranger

Starting point is 00:20:44 and the woman so far, and I'm sure this more, but the woman for the dating game. Yep, Cheryl. Everyone, like this man must have like omitted the nastiest vibes. But to the most like, or like, to people who are very like in tune. Yes.

Starting point is 00:21:01 And maybe might not even realize how in tune they are to these things. Yeah. Because obviously he, other people, he came off as charming and normal and didn't give off bad vibes. Well, and I think it's also the fact that he preys on young people. That's the thing. Who don't necessarily trust their instincts. They're not equipped to really be looking for those kind of things.

Starting point is 00:21:20 But to people who must have a little bit of something there, it's interesting to see how many people were like, what the fuck's up with this guy? Like something is telling me to go look. Yeah, something's up. Well, he also looks like a fucking predator. He does. And he's also like pushing young girls into weird situations. So like not to take away from what you just said, because I completely agree. But it's also like visualize a man in his mid-twenties, like pulling this girl along who's 13. You're going to be like, what the fuck is that? But it's just the fact that they actually acted too, because some people,

Starting point is 00:21:55 and later we'll see, there were people who saw things and just looked the other way. Yeah. Which is fucked. And like this guy, he's just seeing like the smoke. Yeah. He's seeing like just two people sitting. Yeah. So he didn't even see like the whole like dragging her down the beach thing. Yup, exactly. So he's just like something's weird here.

Starting point is 00:22:11 He's like, what's up with us? Yeah. So he carefully climbed up to the top of the bluffs and moved really quietly along the way to make sure he didn't draw any attention to himself. And when he got close, he could smell the weed in the air. So when he reached the area where they were sitting, he finally made his presence known and was like, Hey, what's up here? And Alcala answered. He said, we were just hiking and now we're taking a break. But he had barely finished his sentence when Julie blurted out that Alcala had kidnapped her, brought her there against her will and was now

Starting point is 00:22:39 forcing her to smoke pot with him. Now uncertain which of the two he should believe because he doesn't know either of these people. I don't know. I know. Believe the child. Believe the child. If they're saying they're kidnapped. This is my PSA to everybody. If a kid says they're kidnapped. Believe the child. At least believe. If they're not, then egg on your face, I guess. But whatever. But he arrested them both and brought them to Huntington Beach police station. At the station, Rodney and Julie were separated and they were each separately questioned. And Alcala stuck to his story telling the officer that he and Julie had gone for a hike and actually she was the one who supplied the joint and said they should smoke together.

Starting point is 00:23:19 Wow. He's just going to blame the 13 year old girl? Yeah, totally. Wow. Julie meanwhile stuck to her own story, which was the truth, explaining that she had accepted a ride from this man. He refused to drop her off at school and he had taken her out in the bluffs against her will and also made her smoke weed when she didn't want to. Thinking that she might be lying in order to avoid punishment for being out with an

Starting point is 00:23:40 older man and smoking pot, the officer also didn't know who to believe. But luckily, he ran a background check on Rodney Alcala, and the result came back identifying him as a fucking sex offender on parole. So police released Julie to her parents, and Rodney was booked on charges of supplying drugs to a minor, kidnapping, and violating parole. SONIA There's so many little layers to this one, because one, even if the girl is lying and she snuck out with an older man to do this. Why is this older man down to do that? That's the older man's fault. Because she's a child and he is grooming and fucking,

Starting point is 00:24:17 like- Are you praying upon her? We're really like, I don't know who to believe here. I don't know. Let's look at the facts that she's with a grown fucking man. Yeah. Let's go with it's his fault. No matter what.

Starting point is 00:24:29 She was one of those hippy tops who was smoking weed. And it's like, and then this poor girl has been kidnapped from a bus stop when she was literally just going to school. And has been taken somewhere against it, like screamed at, taken somewhere against her will, dragged down the beach, forced to smoke pot as a 13 year old. And now she's having to be interrogated

Starting point is 00:24:51 and be released to her parents. And nobody even believes her. And nobody's believing her. I'm like, talk about trauma. And like a wake up call to the fucking way that the world works is you're a woman. So unfortunately people probably aren't going to believe you most of the time.

Starting point is 00:25:06 So fucked up. That's crazy. Yeah. He spent a month, Rodney spent a month waiting a hearing. And when he went before the judge, the day after Christmas in 1974, for some reason the kidnapping and drug charges were dropped. I gotta go.

Starting point is 00:25:21 Leaving only a parole violation. So he got a sentence of two and a half years at the California Institution for Men in Chino. Are you kidding me? I am not. The legal system failed all of these women for a very long time. In the most fucking rancid way. It's like this is, he kidnapped an eight year old, raped her and tried to kill her, and you let him go. And then he does the same thing with a third, like he was planning, nobody's gonna tell me he wasn't planning on assaulting

Starting point is 00:25:54 and probably trying to kill her. And you're just gonna let him, you know, he's done it twice, but like who would ever think? Who would ever think he would do it a third time? Like what? What? It's unreal. That's insane. It's unreal. Oh, just wait for this next part.

Starting point is 00:26:12 Oh God. So in July, 1977, he was paroled from prison for the second time with the requirement that obviously he check in regularly with his parole officer on a weekly basis. Surprisingly, after just two visits, one-two, would the parole officer, Alcala, a registered sex offender with a history of violence and a known flight risk, was granted permission by that same officer, that parole officer, to travel to New York to

Starting point is 00:26:38 visit some relatives. And a week later, he left California for New York. Where remember, he's already gone and terrorized women. They just don't happen to know that yet. LS. I... A bunch of buffoons are involved in this. KS. Truly. LS. A bunch of buffoons. KS. Truly. And a lot of women would still be here today.

Starting point is 00:27:01 LS. Yeah, a lot of women suffered and died because of these fucking buffoons. KS. Yup. LS. That's a buff of women suffered and died because of these fucking buffoons. Yup. That's buffoonery. It's buffoonery at its finest. That's wild. It only gets worse. Wow.

Starting point is 00:27:14 How Alcala spent his brief time in New York is mostly unknown, but it is strongly suspected that while there, he committed his second murder. Jesus Christ. That of 23-year-old Ellen Hover. She was the daughter of Manhattan nightclub owner, Herman Hover. She was the last of New York's high society class and her disappearance in July, 1977 was a major news event across New York city. Given her social status and her family's wealth, investigators actually assumed that Ellen's disappearance would be followed by some kind

Starting point is 00:27:42 of ransom demand. But when no demand came, they were forced to consider that she was most likely a victim of foul play. Early in the investigation, Ellen's friend, Richard Middlemark, told detectives that he actually had made plans with Ellen on July 13th to go to a Broadway show, the two of them. And when he called to confirm, she told him that she was going to have lunch at Bloomingdale's

Starting point is 00:28:03 with a photographer, and she expected to be home by 4 p.m. that same day. She never mentioned the photographer's name, but in their search of Ellen's apartment, investigators found the name John Berg written on a calendar beside the date that she went missing. John Berger. John Berg. A friend who was with Ellen earlier that day

Starting point is 00:28:21 said he spotted her talking to a quote, tall, thin, shabbily dressed man who wore his hair, it wore his long hair tied in a ponytail. Most likely Rodney Alcala. I mean that describes him. When her friend asked who the quote unquote freaky looking guy was, Ellen replied, Oh, he's all right. He's a photographer. Yeah. Nearly a year later in June of 1978, investigators, actually with the help of a New York psychic, discovered the skeletal remains of Ellen Hover buried beneath a pile of rocks in

Starting point is 00:28:53 North Terrytown, which is a small town about 30 miles outside of Manhattan. So she was far from home too, which just breaks your fucking heart. Based on the condition of the remains, when they were discovered, arriving at an actually conclusive cause of death was next to impossible, but the medical examiner did suspect strangulation to be the cause because there was damage to the hyoid bone. Based on the medical examiner's report, Ellen's missing person case was transferred to the homicide division, but there was little evidence to work with. And at that point, the case started going cold. Yeah, but don't worry, I will tell you that things work out there. Oh, good.

Starting point is 00:29:31 I think it's part three we get to it. Okay. So in the meantime, Rodney Alcala returned to LA late in the summer of 1977, where he would embark on a murder spree that would result in the deaths of at least six more women. Holy shit. And I say at least because to this day, they're still not sure how many people he killed. Wow. So when Rodney went back to California, he moved back in with his mommy and found a job as a typesetter

Starting point is 00:29:56 with the Los Angeles Times, claiming on his resume that he had held several similar positions in the past. False, because during the timeframes he provided, he was literally in prison. And apparently no one checked that up. No one checked that up. Cool. But he quickly settled into the workplace culture. He amped up his charm. He mingled with the women in the office every chance he got. One of his former coworkers said he would talk about going to parties in Hollywood. It seemed like he knew famous people. But not everybody was so

Starting point is 00:30:25 charmed. Another co-worker, Sharon Gonzalez, told a reporter that Rodney would show her photographs from his portfolio of girls and young women, and many of those girls and young women were posed nude. She said he was very open about his sexuality, and when she asked him why he had taken the photos, this is disgusting. He told her that their parents had hired him to do so. Oh my god. No one's parents hired you to take naked pictures of their children. Are you kidding me? Nobody hired you for that.

Starting point is 00:30:53 Like what the fuck are you talking about? So while he was settling into his new job at the newspaper, on the other side of the country, 18-year-old Jill Barkham was on her way to LA from Oneida, New York. She was eager to start a new life on the West Coast. She was one of 11 children in her family. She was the middle child, and by the time she finished high school, she was very determined to just find an adventure far away from home. Like most young people from the suburbs, obviously, when she thought of one of the most exciting places to go in America, she quickly settled on Hollywood. So as soon as they were able to go, she and two friends from school packed up

Starting point is 00:31:29 their car and they headed to LA that fall, which should have been ridiculously exciting. Yeah. I mean, she's 18. Let's go. Yeah, out on your own. On the morning of November 10th, 1977, George Newton, who was an employee with the Department of Water and Power, was cleaning debris from the side of Franklin Canyon Drive near the reservoir when he saw something strange lying in a ditch. When he got closer to take a look, he realized that he was looking at the dead, partially clothed body of a young woman. So he ran back to his truck and radioed dispatch who called the police for him and reported

Starting point is 00:32:02 the discovery. Now that summer in LA, two young women had been sexually assaulted and murdered by a killer that the press had dubbed the Hillside Strangler. Now we know Stranglers. Exactly. And those are episodes 256 and 258, if you want to go back to that coverage that Alena did. So when they arrived at the scene at Franklin Canyon Drive, detectives felt pretty confident that they just discovered the strangler's third victim. This next part is a bit graphic. I just want to let you know. The young woman was positioned on all fours with her knees tucked

Starting point is 00:32:36 toward her chest. She was nude from the waist down and there was obvious evidence of a violent sexual assault. A large rock lay in a pool of blood on the ground next to her, and she too had been strangled with a blue rope that was knotted in three places. And they also found two impressions in the dirt that appeared to be from a man's shoe. So at least they had that to go on. Detective Ron Lewis of the LAPD Robbery Homicide Division told reporters, it appeared that the body had been there for some time. It seemed like she put up a struggle and her killer had beaten her badly before strangling her,

Starting point is 00:33:10 first with his hands and then with the rope. Jesus. And this is a little graphic. Her pubic hair on the left side appeared to be singed and there was additional evidence indicating that she had been burned as well, likely with a lighter. Holy shit. Yeah, she suffered immensely.

Starting point is 00:33:28 This does feel like the Hillside Stranglers. It does. Like I understand why they thought that was the same. Cause it's, and it's a little off for Rodney, but he's also starting to escalate. Yeah. The medical examiner did collect fluids from her body, but of course DNA testing was at least a decade away at

Starting point is 00:33:45 that point. Other than the footprints and the blood evidence, the scene was void of any evidence that would lead to the identity of the victim or the killer at that point. But fortunately, investigators got a match on the victim's fingerprints from a previous arrest in New York earlier that year. Okay. According to the report, Jill Barcom quote was known by several sex workers in Oneida who referred to her as little bit. Oh, stop. Yeah. Oh, that makes me so sad. I know. After contacting police in New York, investigators learned that Jill had only been in LA for about two weeks. Wow. Two weeks. Wow. She goes across the country to start a new... This new adventure that she's so excited about.

Starting point is 00:34:30 Two weeks she'd been there. Damn. Within a couple of weeks, detectives in LA had connected at least 11 strangulation murders that they were attributing to what they thought was the Hillside Strangler, including at that point the murder of Jill Barkham. Lieutenant Edwin Henderson told a group of reporters in early December, similarities tend to make us believe there's a connection between these murders. Eventually, as we know, police would arrest and charge Kenneth Bianchi and his cousin

Starting point is 00:34:56 Angelo Buono with the Hillside Strangler murders. But when questioned about the murder of Jill Barcombe, both of them denied having anything to do with her death. In fact, they weren't going to deny it. Yeah, exactly. In fact, the investigation until Jill Barcom's death would remain unsolved until 2004 when a DNA match to Rodney Alcala was made to the semen collected from Jill's body all the way back in 1977.

Starting point is 00:35:21 Wow. Which is truly remarkable. That really is. But it's so sad that her family had no idea what happened to her for all those years. Yeah. ["Jingle Bells"] It's the new year.

Starting point is 00:35:40 I am so ready to get back on my BS baby. And that is coming in big time when it comes to food planning, meal prepping, that whole thing. You know, it's a crazy statistic though. Over 10,000 chemicals have entered our US food supply, but the EU limits this to just 300 additives. Personally, I do not have time to sift through ingredient

Starting point is 00:36:02 labels to see what's in the food, which is why I love using Thrive Market. One of my favorite features is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's simple, you can scan any item and instantly they will suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative. For me, that means swapping out those like really sugary snacks for high quality swaps. Like personally, I love those Chomps beef sticks more than life itself. Another thing I love is their smart cart feature.

Starting point is 00:36:28 It takes the stress out of replacing junk food. When you create an account, Thrive Market asks the right questions and automatically builds a grocery cart tailored to your needs, filled with healthier alternatives to your favorite brands. That's actually how I found the lesser evil popcorn. And they also have cheese balls that are ridiculously good, but you don't have to feel guilty about them.

Starting point is 00:36:48 Ready for a junk free start to 2025? Head to thrivemarket.com slash morbid and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash morbid, thrivemarket.com slash morbid. In every great true crime story, there's always a turning point, the moment someone decides to change course.

Starting point is 00:37:09 Well, here's your chance for a turning point of your own. Meet Fume, the flavored air device that is designed to help you ditch the bad habits and feel good about what you're reaching for. No nicotine, no vapor, no batteries, just an awesome design and flavors like crisp mint, peach blush, and cinnamon hearts. Yummy. Let me tell you about this new alternative to smoking and vaping called flavored air. Our

Starting point is 00:37:30 sponsor, Fume, have created an award-winning flavored air device that helps people ditch that bad habit. It was founded on this idea that if we stick to good habits, making a change feels easier and less pressurized. Fume has lots of delicious flavors to choose from. There's crisp mint, orange vanilla, and new peach blush. With flavored air you can satisfy your oral fixation through a passive diffusion system that utilizes no electronics, no vapor, no combustion. Fume has already helped over 400,000 people take steps toward better habits and now it's your turn. To kick off the new year use our code morbid to get a free gift with your journey pack. Head to tryfume.com. That's tryfume.com. Use code morbid to claim this limited time offer today.

Starting point is 00:38:18 Now, in early December, investigators in New York had discovered a possible link between the murder of Ellen Hauver and Rodney Alcala when a search for the alias John Berger came back as one used by Alcala. Acting on a request from the FBI, LAPD officers actually picked up Alcala on December 14, 1977, and they brought him to the precinct for questioning about Ellen's case. To their surprise, not only did he admit knowing Ellen Hover, but he also said that he met with her for a photo shoot on the day she went missing. Wow. But he emphatically stated that he had nothing to do with her disappearance,

Starting point is 00:38:55 he just took some pictures. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's probably just a coincidence. And despite his insistence that he was definitely innocent, he refused to take a polygraph test. And detectives had no reason to hold him, so they had to let him go. Yeah. LAPD detective Cliff Shepard said, there was nothing to hold him on because there was no body,

Starting point is 00:39:15 so he was released. Because at that point, they didn't have it. Man. Yeah. So on December 16, just two days after he was interrogated by the LAPD for Ellen's disappearance, the LA County Sheriff's Officer received a call regarding 27-year-old nurse Georgia Marie Wickstead.

Starting point is 00:39:34 According to the caller, Wickstead had failed to pick up a co-worker for her collar pool that morning, and she also hadn't shown up for work, and both of those things were very out of character for her. She always showed up on time. She was somebody that her friends could rely on. Repeated calls to George's apartment also went unanswered. So after the call, deputy Jeffrey Cannon was dispatched to just go do a typical wellbeing check. Not expecting much there. When he arrived at Georgia Wichstead's apartment complex, Cannon was met by deputies Jack Neninger and Mike Powers, and the three men made their way through the courtyard to Georgia's apartment. The first thing they noticed was that a screen was missing on one of the three large windows

Starting point is 00:40:14 at the front of the apartment, and it had been propped up against a building beside the window. Against the building, excuse me. And that's always chilling to see. And there was also a box positioned underneath the window, like somebody had obviously used it to climb through. And there were also scuff marks outside the wall that seemed like they were made by shoes or boots. Like as he's climbing in. So this person literally broke into her apartment. But when they tried the door handle, deputies were surprised to find that the door was actually

Starting point is 00:40:40 unlocked. Inside the apartment, it was nearly 90 degrees. Yeah, 90 degrees and completely dark, like almost pitch black. So they switched on their flashlights. Among the first things they saw when they swept their lights across the room was a dead body lying on the floor. They drew their guns and searched a different room in the apartment looking for the killer. Just have to be sure that he's not still there. And of course, any additional victims. But once they secured the killer, just have to be sure that he's not still there. Yeah, you don't know if he's still there. And of course, any additional victims. But once they secured the apartment, they called for additional officers and of course, the coroner. With the curtains open and the lights on, the deputies were able to see the full extent of the violence committed in Georgia Wichstead's apartment.

Starting point is 00:41:18 And it was, I can't imagine having to leave that scene and go about your life after that. Georgia was lying on the floor on her back. She was nude and completely covered and bruises, lacerations and blood. A pair of tights were tied around her neck and knotted several times. On the bed next to her, there was a large blood stain in the center of her mattress, and there was blood splatter all over the bed frames and on all four walls. Holy shit. By her head, detectives found a claw hammer that seemed to have been used in the assault.

Starting point is 00:41:52 My God. The autopsy report- It's far more brutal than I even anticipated. He is far more brutal than I ever even knew. The autopsy report included an extensive list of injuries, including significant trauma to her face and head, skull fractures, extensive lacerations covering her body, and a fractured and dislocated arm. So she fought like hell. Yeah. The medical examiner wrote, almost every injury was inflicted

Starting point is 00:42:21 while she was still alive and blood was still pumping through her body. Oh my God. Yeah, which is awful. The ultimate cause of death listed was ligature strangulation. Holy shit. So she even survived those blows to the head with a claw hammer. Oh my God. Although his previous murders were obviously violent, the attack on Georgia Wickstead seemed particularly brutal by comparison. And unhinged. Unhinged. Yeah. Out of control. Detective Cliff Shepherd said, I think he did that one

Starting point is 00:42:49 to show that he could kill with impunity. LS. Yeah. It feels that way. KS. I think so too. And I think he's like, look, you'll arrest me and I'll still go out and do it. LS. Exactly. KS. And I'll go even harder than I have. LS. And I'll be worse. KS. And you still won't catch me. LS. Yeah. Because you just keep letting me go. KS. So look what I can do. LS. Yeah. KS. However, unlike his previous crime scenes, which were light on evidence, And you still won't catch me. Yeah. Because you just keep letting me go. So look what I can do. Yeah. However, unlike his previous crime scenes, which were light on evidence, this time he had left behind critical evidence in the form of semen, blood evidence,

Starting point is 00:43:14 and even a partial palm print. Oh, wow. Yeah. While the DNA and blood evidence, again, wouldn't prove useful for at least another decade, the palm print was the first piece of solid evidence that investigators could find, and all detectives needed was a hand to match it to. After the murder of Georgia Wickstead though, Rodney Alcologist returned to his ordinary fucking life. God, this guy.

Starting point is 00:43:36 Yeah, just went back to his job at the Times, was taking photographs on the side for extra money, photographing people's weddings, which is truly unthinkable, that he could do that and then go to a wedding ceremony and take pictures. In March of 1978, the LAPD's Hillside Strangler Task Force had narrowed down their list of suspects and were questioning those they believed could be involved in the brutal string of killings. And as a child rapist, his name was among those on the list. So police paid him a

Starting point is 00:44:05 visit at his mother's house to question him. I just have to say, his mom must be like, what's going on? Police are showing up here all the time, but every time they show up, she tells them that he has nothing to do with anything. It's like, I get it, that's your son. If the police keep showing up and he keeps being linked to this many things, he did some shit wrong. Yeah. Like, come on. I just needed to say that.

Starting point is 00:44:30 So although he was ruled out as a suspect in the Hillside case, while they were at his home, they discovered that he was in the possession of a small amount of marijuana. So they arrested him on a petty drug charge just to keep him. It earned him, that possession charge earned him a three-month jail sentence, so he spent three more months in jail and was released in late June of 1978. On the morning of June 21st, June 24th, excuse me, just days after he was released from jail, Zafar Shah, a resident at the Illinois apartment in El Segundo, made a truly brutal discovery. Shaw had just entered the basement of the building to do some laundry when he almost stumbled over the body of 31-year-old

Starting point is 00:45:11 Charlotte Lamb. And just days after he was released? Just days. Holy shit. Shaw ran to the building's manager office and together they called the police who arrived a little before noon. Upon arrival, Detective William Gaynor was met by the building manager who took him down into the basement. Lamb's body was lying nude on the floor, a long shoelace tied tightly around her neck, and a piece of wood with a small amount of blood splatter was next to her head. It was very clear that she had been sexually assaulted. And among the more curious aspects of the crime scene though was that Lamb, who at that point had yet to be identified, didn't live at the Illinois apartments and was unknown to the residents there.

Starting point is 00:45:50 So that wasn't even where she lived. And this is an apartment complex laundry room. But not when she lives at, like so strange. That's so bizarre. It is. Her body was taken to the medical examiner's office where an autopsy was conducted by Dr. Joseph Kogan. In his report, he noted that there was considerable trauma to her face and head. There were bite marks on the right side of her neck. This is brutal. There were lacerations over

Starting point is 00:46:16 her entire genital area. And the ligature was so forcefully tightened that the cartilage around her voice box and thyroid was fractured and the blood vessels in her eyes were ruptured. Wow. This attack was... Wow. He's an animal. Like he's a fucking animal. Literally a wild animal. A demon. Holy shit. And again, according to the autopsy, the majority of Charlotte's injuries were inflicted while she was still alive. And the ultimate cause of death was the ligature strangulation. Yeah, because I was going to say all that trauma from that ligature, she experienced all of that. Holy shit.

Starting point is 00:46:56 Swabs of fluid and bite mark impressions were taken and stored for later analysis. Something they did do really well was keep all the, even though they couldn't use like, like the fluid evidence, the semen, that kind of stuff, they did a good job of taking it anyway and storing it. And it doesn't seem like a lot of things got lost along the way. Which is great. Yeah. Now days after Charlotte hadn't shown up for work and nobody had heard from her, several calls were placed to the LAPD to report her missing. At the same time, her car had been ticketed and was eventually impounded in Santa Monica. And between the two events, investigators were finally able to identify Charlotte Lamb

Starting point is 00:47:35 as the body discovered in that basement. But now how she had wound up there would remain a mystery to everyone for some time to come. Wow. Yeah. Investigators pursued this case for months, but the evidence was scarce and leads were pretty slim. That September, Rodney Alcala's life took a bizarre turn when he was recruited as a contestant on the dating game. So this, all of everything we've talked about so far has happened before he was even on the dating game.

Starting point is 00:48:02 That's bonkers. And then he just goes on this. And he just goes on the dating game. That's bonkers. And then he just goes on this. And he just goes on the dating game. Yeah, like what? And if you're not familiar, it was a popular show back in the 70s and I think 80s where a single woman would interview three men and they sat behind a curtain

Starting point is 00:48:16 and she would just choose one of them to go on a date with. The show became known for its frequent use of very risque double entendres and thinly veiled allusions to sexual objects. It was a spicy show. They would be like sex. They'd be like, but they'd like say it different than that. They'd be like sex, but not.

Starting point is 00:48:33 Yeah. In this particular episode, bachelorette Cheryl Bradshaw asked the Hidden Bachelors, "'I'm serving you for dinner. "'What are you called and what do you look like?' What a question. Yeah, I think they were pre-written. Very of the time. Yeah. Bachelor number one, Rodney replied, I'm called the banana

Starting point is 00:48:50 and I look really good. Peel me. I hate this a lot. I will fucking peel you. I hate this a lot. With a potato peeler. Yeah. Yeah, asshole. The dating game sounds like a nightmare anyways. Yeah, it truly does. Like if these are the answers you're getting, where are the choices, my friend? Where are the choices? Below ground level. Yeah. The response got a laugh out of Bradshaw in the audience, setting a kind of lighthearted tone.

Starting point is 00:49:15 And throughout the episode, Alcala did his best, his absolute best, to charm Bradshaw, describing himself as a long-haired photographer who enjoyed skydiving and motorcycling in his spare time. What makes me crazy about this and it's like very horrifying is like all he's done up to this point. And he's like, I think I'll go on TV. Yeah. Like he just know he's like spotlight and it's like, what?

Starting point is 00:49:39 And he did. And he just, he didn't care that spotlight was going to be thrust upon him. He was that convinced. And honestly, he had't care that spotlight was going to be thrust upon him. He was that convinced. And honestly, he had every reason to be. Yeah, he didn't have any reason to think he would be stopped. The legal system showed him, you can be a fucking monster to children. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:56 And you'll get away with it. And we'll let you out. And we'll let you out. You can serve like a couple of years. It'll be easy. And then you get out and just get right back to it. And then maybe we'll get you, but maybe not. Maybe not. It's just very disconcerting. And this appearance on the dating game, obviously before Cheryl gets the weird feeling. And it's interesting that she actually, she picked him and she was stunned by his charm in the moment. In the spotlight. In the spotlight when she can't see him.

Starting point is 00:50:26 Exactly. And then she sees him and has a personal conversation with him. But it's a quick exchange. Even in that quick exchange, she sees him and she sees him for exactly who the fuck he is. Yeah, because I think also the mask drops. Yes, big time. He's on TV, he's sitting there charming everyone, he's putting on a show and then he goes in

Starting point is 00:50:43 front of her and he says three words and she's like, you're fucking weird and I'm good. And I think, and this is just like my personal thought, I think she saw his eyes. And I think she saw that there was something fucking dead behind those eyes. Listen, you got everybody. I can't imagine. People who did were the right ones in this story. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:51:01 Oh, his eyes are so fucking beady and scary. And it breaks my heart that they were the last thing some people saw. Yeah. It's, oh, I hate this guy. It kills me. But like I just said, the audience loved Alcala. It seemed that Cheryl did in the moment too,

Starting point is 00:51:17 especially when she chose him to be her date at the end of the episode. She told the host, well, I like bananas, so I'll take one. Meaning bachelor number one. As winner, Cheryl and Rodney were awarded tennis lessons and a trip to California's Magic Mountain Amusement Park. Can you fucking imagine if she had accepted that date and gone to tennis lessons with Rodney Alcala? And then an amusement park?

Starting point is 00:51:38 And then an amusement park. The amusement park alone. I can't. But like with Rodney Alcala? I can't. But like with Rodney Alcala? I can't. I don't like, and that's the thing. It's like, he probably would have killed Cheryl. 100%.

Starting point is 00:51:51 Like I don't see him. No. Just going on that date. No. I see this as the next step in his like, let's see if I can do this. Because it's upping the ante. Oh, I'll win this date with her. Everyone will see it.

Starting point is 00:52:03 You know, he went into that being like, I'm going to win. Yeah. Like I know I'm going to. He's apping the ante. Oh, I'll win this date with her. Everyone will see it. You know he went into that being like, I'm going to win. Yeah. Like I know I'm going to because he's a cocky motherfucker and he did. He did win. Yeah. I think he thought, I'll just do this in front of America's face. Literally. I'll win this date and I'll kill this girl and I'll get away with it. I'll kill this girl that everyone sees me when the date was.

Starting point is 00:52:21 Yep. And they still won't catch me. And I'll get away with it. I think that's exactly what he was planning. But it's like, that is also like, that's a level of like hubris. Yes. That is Greek mythology, but like style. Like that is like, that's so wild, because you're just like, I know that was your intention. Oh yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:44 But if you had gone on that date with Cheryl and like, thank goodness, Cheryl, I'm so glad Cheryl got out of this. But I'm like, if you had killed Cheryl and like everyone knew that you won this date with her, you were the last person with her, you would have been caught. Like that would have been the end. Nicole Sarris But he had been caught so many times. But he was so sure. He was so sure because I do think he's a narcissist. Yeah. And me, arm, chair, diagnosed him.

Starting point is 00:53:10 Well, and it's like literally like, it's diabolical level of hubris. But again. Because it's like that would have been it. Like that wouldn't have been one you can get out of. You would have been the last person with that person. You would think, but then you also have to wonder because he didn't even get convicted on... No, that's true.

Starting point is 00:53:27 Everybody knew what he did to Tali Shapiro at eight years old. Everybody knew. I'm just like, what? So that gave him the full blown confidence to say, look what I can do to an eight-year-old girl in the middle of the fucking morning at a place where she lives. And I got out in 30 something months. Less than three years. Nicole Sattler Yeah. Nicole Sattler And went to go do stuff again. I got caught

Starting point is 00:53:48 with a 13 year old girl and I just blamed it on her. Nicole Sattler I got nothing. Nicole Sattler And I got, those charges got dropped. Nicole Sattler Yeah, didn't get anything. Nicole Sattler I just had to serve a parole violation for, I think it was three months. I think he thought this was going to be perfect. Nicole Sattler No, he had every reason to think that this was going to be... I think my brain just won't wrap.

Starting point is 00:54:06 I'm like, this is just like... It shouldn't. This is just like... Yeah. It's just like, whoa. It's bonkers. It's just whoa. I think he was a monster and then I think the legal system even pushed him further into

Starting point is 00:54:20 believing. Well, it enabled him. It enabled him completely. Exactly. It's just very shocking. And poor Cheryl. Enable him, exactly. Enable him completely. Exactly. It's just very shocking. And poor Cheryl. I know, poor Cheryl. And poor Cheryl just for being that close to this.

Starting point is 00:54:30 Yeah, I can't imagine. I'm glad she got away from this. Well, I just can't imagine how she felt when she found this all after. Finding out what had happened to those poor women and girls before her. Before her and after her. Yeah, because she goes on another spree.

Starting point is 00:54:44 This is just one spree. Yeah. Because, jeez, he goes on another spree. This is just one spree. A few miles from the glass spires of midtown Atlanta lies the South River Forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country, who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police training facility, nicknamed Cop City. At approximately nine o'clock this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual, without warning, shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper. This is We Came to the Forest, a story about resistance, The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down.

Starting point is 00:55:35 Love and fellowship, It was probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. And the lengths will go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts. Follow We Came to the Forest on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. ["Wonderful Music"]

Starting point is 00:56:00 So like we know, when the show finished taping, like I said at the top of part one, Cheryl started to feel like she'd made a bad choice. According to former homicide detective Matt Murphy, the moment where he comes around the partition and Cheryl Bradshaw looks at him, there's a moment in her eyes where you can see she's being polite, but she did refuse to go on a date with him. See, and he said it. I want to launch it back. I've seen clips, but I've never seen the two of them interact.

Starting point is 00:56:24 The moment when he comes around the partition is very interesting. Immediately after seeing Alcala in person, like we know, she went to Ellen Metzger, who was the show's producer, and she said, Ellen, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Will that be a problem? And again, thankfully, Ellen Metzger assured her it was not going to be a problem. She was not under any obligation to go on this date.

Starting point is 00:56:46 And Cheryl left the studio that afternoon, like we know, completely unaware that she narrowly avoided spending time with a brutal killer. Jesus. It turned out Cheryl Bradshaw was not the only person put off by Alcala's strange, very intense energy. According to Jed Mills, who was one of the other bachelors on the episode, Alcala's strange behavior and demeanor in the green room before the taping he felt was very bizarre and very off-putting. Wow. He said, I'm kind of bending toward the other guy to get away from him, and I don't know if I did that consciously. He was quiet, but at the same time, he would interrupt and impose whenever he felt like it. And he was very obnoxious and creepy. He became very unlikable and rude and imposing as though he was trying

Starting point is 00:57:29 to intimidate. And just to think that this other bachelor found himself pulling away from this guy. Like this man was like, yeah. Like something about Rodney's energy made him move away from him, whether he meant to or not. Yeah. Like that's creepy. Yeah. You know something's off when like, he's even coming off as predatory to another man. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:57:54 Yeah. Rodney's failure on the dating game did not seem to affect his confidence in any way. In February of 1979, just a few months after being rejected by Cheryl Bradshaw, Alcala was back out on the streets looking for a new victim. And imagine being Cheryl too, I didn't even think of this part of it, being the woman you said, no, I'm not going out with him. And now he knows who you are. I know. And you're worried, like, he gave me the creeps. Like I would be, and she doesn't even know

Starting point is 00:58:23 what he's done. No. But it's like, you were creeped out enough to not want to creeps. Like, I would be, and she doesn't even know what he's done. No. But it's like, you were creeped out enough to not want to go out with him. I would be like, that must have like weighed on her a little bit, just being like, is he going to follow me? Is he mad? Is he going to be like, weird about it? Like, that's a, I mean, men get really fucking weird when they get rejected. So it's like... Men get weird when they're rejected privately.

Starting point is 00:58:42 Literally. I can't imagine publicly. So it's like, on a date, like you can, I'm sure she was very nervous about that. And then to hear later, I'd be like, oh my God, like that's like, holy shit. Yeah. No, you're so right. That's a whole different plan to work through. He did stalk people.

Starting point is 00:58:59 Oh yeah, I'm sure. We'll find out in part three that he was a stalker. Oh, I believe it. Yeah. But like I said, just a few months after that, he was back out on the streets looking for a new victim. On February 13th, just the day before Valentine's Day, he was driving through Riverside, California when he spotted 15-year-old Monique Hoyt hitchhiking and he stopped and offered her a ride. His backseat was full of camera equipment and Alcala asked if he could take Monique's picture,

Starting point is 00:59:24 telling her it was for a contest and they could both win a prize. Oh, okay. If he entered and they both won. Yeah. To the 15-year-old, he seemed like a, quote, nice, charming, mild man. And he also came off as a legitimate photographer because he's got all this stuff with him. Yeah. So she agreed to let him take her picture.

Starting point is 00:59:40 Yeah. By the time they reached Alcala's mother's house, he literally brought this girl back to his mother's house. This is a 15-year-old girl. Jesus Christ. Just gonna state that for exactly what it is. Jesus Christ. The sun had started to go down and he told Monique that the next day it would be better for pictures. So they spent the night together at his mom's house. She's 15. She's 15. Remember everybody. We don't know what happened,

Starting point is 01:00:00 but she's 15. When they woke up the next day, he packed the camera equipment into the car and they drove out to the desert, a desert area near Banning, about 80 miles outside of LA. So they drove for, you got to think over an hour in the car together. Yeah. The first few photos that he took were simple posing shots, but before long, he asked Monique if she would be opposed to taking some nude photos, which he has no right to ask her because she's 15 years old. Because she's a literal child. And she can't consent to taking some nude photos, which she has no right to ask her because she's 15 years old. Because she's a literal child.

Starting point is 01:00:25 And she can't consent to that. No. She did agree, but as she was lifting her shirt over her head, he struck her in the face with a large tree branch, sending her slumping to the ground where she blacked out. He hit her so hard, she blacked out. A 15 year old. When she regained consciousness, this is brutal and awful. He was sexually assaulting her, but she had the wherewithal to pretend

Starting point is 01:00:47 to still be unconscious while this was happening. But eventually the pain and the trauma of it all became too much and she started screaming. And at that point he yelled at her to shut up, stuffed her t-shirt into her mouth and started choking her with his hands until she lost consciousness for the second time. Holy shit.

Starting point is 01:01:04 When she woke up for the second time, her, she woke up and realized that her hands and feet were both bound. And now she looked next to her and saw that Rodney Alcala was lying beside her on a blanket, sobbing. I can't with these fucking creeps who do this shit and then start to cry and stuff like, you gotta go. I just can't imagine enduring what that girl endured at 15 years old.

Starting point is 01:01:31 And then watching this man sit there and cry next to her on a blanket, like, what? The level of confusion. She's also blacked out two times because he strangled her and hit her in the head. And then she wakes, like, the confusion, the bizarre confusion of this all. No, that would be so over the line of my comprehension

Starting point is 01:01:50 that I couldn't even, like that, bleh. Now remember, she's blacked out twice, but still relied on her instincts and turned to Rodney and started comforting him, knowing that she could maybe reverse psychology him. Monique is fucking smart as fuck. Boss. Smart as a whip.

Starting point is 01:02:08 Boss. Yeah. She told him that she wanted to spend more time with him and said, can we just go back to your house? Would that be okay? Wow. She also begged him not to tell anybody what had happened between them. She said, just don't tell anybody and I won't tell anybody. She's not smart too because you're being like,

Starting point is 01:02:23 I don't want anyone to know. Yeah. I'm not gonna tell anyone. I would never tell anybody. She begged him, don't tell anybody. That's smart too, because you're being like, I don't want anyone to know. Like, I'm not going to tell anyone. I would never tell anybody. She begged him, don't say anything. He didn't respond to any of her questions, just remained completely silent. But it appeared that this reverse psychology worked. He started on tying her silently though. I can't imagine. I also just like, I'm really, I admire this level of collectedness

Starting point is 01:02:48 because being able to like compartmentalize what's going on. And think that quickly. Whenever like people, survivors will do this kind of thing. I'm like, I just, that's so admirable to me because I have a lot of trouble not showing exactly how I feel about a situation. Same, me too. Like I have a lot, you're gonna tell. It says it. If I'm pissed, I'm pissed.

Starting point is 01:03:13 We have those faces. Yeah, and if I'm upset, I'm upset. And it's like, I have trouble like bending my emotion to go the other way and these people can just like, like these women just are able to like just zone in and think so clearly. Yeah. It's very admirable. When meanwhile, your nervous system is probably the most fucking, is definitely the most panicked it's ever been.

Starting point is 01:03:35 Your nervous system is losing its mind. Is out of whack. But your brain somehow, your mind and your survival instincts must just kick in. Fascinating. But the tension in this moment of him untying her, completely silent. And she's just sitting there hoping like, I'm hoping this is working. She has no idea. They could walk down together and he could hit her over the head again and this could

Starting point is 01:03:56 all start back up. He's already horrifically assaulted her in every way. They both just silently got dressed and returned to the car and started driving again the long distance back to Los Angeles over 80 miles. Once they made it down the mountain and entered Banning, Alcala stopped at a fast food restaurant and he went into place in order and he told Monique to wait for him while he went inside to use the bathroom. Wow. As soon as, so he trusted her at that point.

Starting point is 01:04:23 Because she got him to. She was able to convince him, I'm not going to say anything if you don't. And like, I'd like to spend more time together. Yeah. As soon as he was out of sight, she ran to the motel next door and started screaming for help. One of the motel guests called 911 while some other people brought her into their room to wait for police. So again, more good Samaritans here. Some people hear people screaming and they're like, I don't want to get involved in that. Or I don't know what I heard, whatever. But these people heard her screaming, called the police and said, come in here, you're safe.

Starting point is 01:04:53 Damn. I love it. So in the meantime, Alcala had returned to the car and obviously realized that Monique had escaped. So he got back into the car and just dipped, like, flood that scene completely. Piece of shit. When police got there, Monique gave a description of her kidnapper and she knew his name, so she told them his name. And after picking him out of a photo lineup of six images, investigators knew exactly

Starting point is 01:05:15 where to find Rodney Alcala. Of course they did. At his mom's house. Yeah. Because that's where he lives, always. Yeah. He was quickly arrested for the assault the next day. In his interview with detectives,

Starting point is 01:05:26 he claimed that Monique had agreed to be photographed by him and she said that she would quote simulate sex acts. Jesus Christ. She's 15, so she can't agree to that. He said eventually she changed her mind and that's when he started choking her. Oh. Okay. Oh, he's just like, you know, you can understand she changed her mind. I started choking her. So, you know, after the child said she wouldn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. He told the detectives that the situation had gotten out of hand. He never intended to attack her. He said, you're in an unreasoning situation. Your brain and you just don't seem to know what to do. You're not reasoning. You're not thinking. I raped her. So he literally told police outright, I raped her.

Starting point is 01:06:09 And it's like, I'm sorry, don't try to like... Underplay it. ...have a moment with everyone and be like, you know, you just don't know what you're doing. It's like, no, most people do know what they're doing. I know exactly what I'm doing. That's like, don't try to be on a level with me. We're not on the same level.

Starting point is 01:06:23 No. So given his violent criminal history, the prosecutor asked the judge to set the bail at $50,000 for Rodney. Yeah. For some motherfucking crazy ass reason, the judge found that amount to be too high. Are you kidding me?

Starting point is 01:06:39 For raping a child. Are you kidding me? For the second time. For the second time everybody. And said I'll call his bail. When I tell you the buffoonery here in the legal system. I want to look at all of these people today and be like, hey, you all got blood on your hands. Yeah, I want to be like, how do you feel? How does that feel? Do you guys sleep at night?

Starting point is 01:06:56 They absolutely do. Do you sleep good at night? Why? I'm like, did you read the wrong transcript? Or you knew that he had already raped a child and now he's being accused of raping a child again. And you're like, nah, 50,000 is too high. How about no bail? Like, I don't know what all the rules are for bail, but obviously there was the option here to set it higher at 50,000. He would have killed her. Absolutely. He raped her. He abducted her. He took lewd photos of her. And also literally was choking the life out, choked her to the point of unconsciousness

Starting point is 01:07:26 at least one time and hit her in the face so hard with a tree branch that she lost consciousness a second time. Like, are you fucking serious, dude? So his bail was set at just $10,000 and his mommy wasted no time coming to his aid, believing that there must have been some terrible mistakes. And she's got to get a fucking grip. Agreed. Is what she needs to do. Agre it. She's got to get a fucking grip. Agreed. Is what she needs to do. Agreed. Like you got to hold your son accountable.

Starting point is 01:07:49 Let's be real. 100%. On March 16th, Rodney was released on bail and returned to mommy's house to await his trial, which was scheduled for September. That is disgusting. And that is where we're going to wrap for part two. In part three, we will see yet another flop of a legal system and many other women who ended up losing their lives

Starting point is 01:08:09 because of that. That is unthinkable. But luckily he gets caught and apprehended and goes to multiple trials which is really fucking annoying in and of itself but it ends on a good note. Nicole Sarris At least there's that. Nicole Sarris As good of, I should say as good of a note as it can. Nicole Sarris Yeah, at least like some justice is served in the end. Nicole Sarris Yes. Nicole Sarris I mean, I know he's, yeah.

Starting point is 01:08:35 Nicole Sarris Yeah, I mean, bitch, he died. Nicole Sarris I mean, bitch, he died. So justice was served. Nicole Sarris Yes, exactly. Nicole Sarris Damn. Nicole Sarris Yes. Nicole Sarris This is just such a fucking brutal and awful case. And just full of failure. Yeah. And these poor women and young girls are sitting there watching this guy get away with it each time. And just like the ones who have escaped, who have survived him,

Starting point is 01:09:01 are watching him literally do it again and again. And no one's listening, no one gives a shit. And it's like we said, you know, Cheryl Bradshaw obviously must have been terrified just for turning down a date. Imagine being 15 year old Monique, you accuse him of rape and his bail gets set at $10,000 and he gets out. The man who raped you after beating you and strangling you unconscious twice is just out on the streets again. I really can't. What do you, how do you, how do you deal with that at all? How do you rationalize that in your brain? I don't know if you can be quite honest,

Starting point is 01:09:39 but there is unfortunately a lot more, a lot more horrific details to talk about in part three. He's not done, but again, it ends on as good of a note as it can. So stay tuned for that. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. I don't have to tell you not to keep it this weird. I'm sorry. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

Starting point is 01:11:15 Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history from covert experiments pushing the boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about each week unredacted declassified mysteries we pull back the curtain on these hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II, not as prisoners,

Starting point is 01:11:54 but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow Redacted, Declassified Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Redacted early and ad free right now on Wondery+.

Morbid - Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.