Morbid - Episode 644: A Sit Down With Chapman & Maclain Way, Directors of "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga"

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Today we are joined by Emmy award winning film directors, Chapman & Maclain Way to discuss the wild story behind their Netflix Documentary "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga". This documentary was expertly crafted and features the often unbelievable folklore surrounding the 2013 Presidential Ricin Attacks. Haven't watched it yet? Check it out by visiting https://www.netflix.com/title/81903247See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery+. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network Podcast. In the depths of an Atlanta forest, a clash between activists and authorities ends in Network podcast. episodes of We Came to the Forest ad-free on Wondery+. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. It's special Morbid. It's a special Mor morbid. We have some directors on today, honey. We have Emmy award-winning directors at that.

McLean and Chapman Way, they are brothers. We have them on the show today. You might know them from Wild Wild Country or Untold, and perhaps now from Kings of Tupelo, which is a three-part documentary. It dropped on Netflix back in December. I think it was December 11th. There are probably going to be some spoilers in this episode, so we definitely highly suggest that you watch it before you listen to this, but live your life. And it is so good. Listen to it.

Or watch it. Listen to it and watch it. The order that we would love for you to do this in is watch it and then listen to it. Correct. And you know what? Live your own life though. Make your own choices. Do what you want to do. But they were great to talk to.

They were awesome to talk to. This story has crazy details. There's rice and lace letters being sent to President Obama, if anybody remembers that from I think 2013. There's a deep dark conspiracy about black market body parts, severed heads and freezers and somehow that all culminates into an Elvis impersonator's massive feud with a taekwondo instructor. As it usually does.

Yeah, so if that doesn't entice you, I love you but I don't know what's wrong with you. But I don't know what you like, okay? I don't know what you could possibly like, But if that does entice you, keep listening. So before we get into the details of The Kings of Tupelo, we wanted to talk a little bit about how you guys got into filmmaking in the first place. It's obviously something that's in your blood. So was it something that you guys were always interested in? Yeah, it's an interesting question.

I think Matt and I grew up in a family that has worked in the film industry. Our father was a screenplay writer growing up and wrote screenplays for films. And we've had uncles and aunts who are producers and actors and things like that. And so it was kind of always around us, but truthfully, Matt and I kind of loved sports growing up. And so we played a lot of sports. And then

I think as we got older and realized there was zero chance of us ever becoming professional athletes, which I my dream is still don't don't kill my dream. Yeah, I'm a 34 year old guy and it's still got a great job. Sure. There's still time never give up. There's still things that we kind of got like obsessed with music and film and the arts and in high school and really kind of came to it on our own in a way. And I was kind of studying cinematography and Mack was actually studying history at the time. And this was around, you know,

2007, 2008. And quickly realized that there was like kind of new ways to make documentary films. Like I think we kind of grew up where documentaries were kind of like the vegetables. So they were like the broccoli of the entertainment industry. And we were starting to see like more entertaining, more thrilling, more artful documentary filmmaking. And so we kind of dove in and around 2010 and kind of have been doing it ever since. Nice. Awesome. So for our listeners that have not seen this specific documentary at Kings of Tupelo, can you give us a brief overview of what takes place

and kind of what the story is all about? Because there's a lot there. Yes, I think brief is probably the most important word in that question. So I'll do my best because it's a weird story. But basically in 2013, kind of our country's preeminent Elvis impersonators had been arrested for trying to assassinate President Barack Obama and had sent poison in the mail, a poison called ricin, just very potent, dangerous, rare poison. And basically a week later, he was released from interrogation from prison and it had been announced that he had been framed by a local rival karate instructor in the

town of Tupelo, Mississippi, where they're both from. And so that's kind of the headline. We flew out to Tupelo, Mississippi, which is the birthplace of Elvis Presley. In 2020, we started meeting with a lot of the characters and kind of quickly realized that there was a whole hell of a lot more to the story than just that insane headline. So our journey began in 2020, probably, I'd say, is when we kind of started working on this full-time. You left out so much, Chet. You left out. You left out so much, Jeff. You left out.

You left out. That was a lot easy. You let me send a dog, no realize what a great job I did there. I was like, that was like, that was like 4% of the documentary. It's so wild too. Cause if you heard that synopsis or read that synopsis on the back of like a fiction book, you'd be like, that's a lot. Like you, that's crazy. That's a little far-fetched we always say like if we like pitch this as a narrative like no one would ever believe it.

Yeah that was our experience too because like we the first time we you know when you go into Tupelo you fly into Memphis and then it's like 90 minutes south across over the state border into Mississippi. And like it, you're not really driving to anything. Like, you know, you just kind of like go to Tupelo. It always felt like kind of like the town from like Big Fish a little bit where it's like, you kind of like go off this like beaten path to this dirt road and like, you see these like telephone wires with like everyone's like shoes like strung up and like no one really like this town but it's like a really like cool magical place. But it was interesting like because when we first got there where it's almost an element that I was like a little nervous I would wince when I would tell people I was there because we kind of just by the by the

fact that there was like Seven or eight or nine or ten of us in our film crew and we have film cameras And we had like a small production van like people just notice you Immediately and they ask you like what you're doing there, but they're very friendly about it It's like a very like hospitable welcome And it almost like wins telling them, you know, like oh, we're doing the 2013 presidential assassination because it's like a small town. You would think that they would like that,

not that that's not, they wouldn't be that excited that Netflix talking and I would be doing something on that story. And it felt like their reaction was like the exact, exact opposite. Like they were so stoked that like Netflix, that someone was coming to town to do something like kind of involved with Elvis,

but more on this like wackadoop, crazy story with all these like really fascinating characters. And it was like that almost like set the tone for the whole doc, where it's like, oh, we can actually have like a lot of a lot of fun with this one. It's it's and I think we certainly did. It was cool. That's amazing, because I would assume that you probably don't run into that a lot where people are so willing to talk to you like that, and especially in a small town too. Yeah, it's I mean like especially now like no one wants to be on camera

Everyone's like very angry when they see cameras and well, we got the two of them Not only were they excited but there are certain characters in our story who played like the quote-unquote role of the villain or the bad guy and And they were like so excited by that opportunity and even relish the opportunity to be the bad guy in this story. And so we had so much fun. We quickly realized down in the South, especially in Tupelo, Mississippi,

that they love telling stories. They love embellishing the truth. They love heightening the truth. They're just such larger than like characters. They're proud of their eccentricities. And I think kind of where we're from is a little bit different. People kind of hide their quirks and their weird things. And it was just so much fun and so refreshing to be in the South where it's really a badge of honor, your eccentricity. And we truly had a great time hanging out with these characters

and getting to film them. That's so cool. I love the way you guys open the documentary, too, where you talk about how Southern people and the South in general is just so good at storytelling. Because immediately that documentary opens, and you're like, oh, this is going to, first of all, you know it's going to be a tale if you read the description.

And then the way it starts, you're like, this is a cozy vibe. I like this. It was our, like, we always joke that that was like our version of like a legal display was just using using like a William Faulkner quote. And then Steve Holland, who's our Mississippi undertaker, kind of just waxes poetic on on the yeah, exactly what Chaps said, just like how they love to embellish stories for a good time because it was interesting. There was so much to this documentary that I think it took a while to make.

I think it took us like, from real production to finishing was at least two, two and a half years. And then we had support from Netflix, so it wasn't like we needed to rally resources. We went at it pretty quickly. But to investigate all the truth claims in this documentary, I think would have taken 10 years to make it. Easily. Easily. So there was kind of an element of when we were down there, within reason, I think we

just tried to ride the waves of these interviews and some of the outlandish stuff that was being said to us. So when did this story first come across your desk, I guess I would say? Was it the presidential assassination that you heard of first or was it another element of the story? Yeah, I mean, so 2013, we just had a very faint memory. Honestly, just the first part of the story that an Elvis impersonator had been arrested for trying to assassinate the president.

So just that headline kind of always stayed with us. And then in 2020, I kind of became fascinated with small towns and small towns that have these incredibly bizarre and human stories that maybe other people don't know. And I was doing research and kind of stumbled across Tupelo, which is like a world unto itself. It's just filled with Elvis statues and Elvis murals. They're kind of like the stepbrother to Graceland and Memphis, where Elvis is really known for. And then all of a sudden, just researching Tupelo, I saw that the presidential assassination story, the two main characters lived in Tupelo. And so then I started reading it again, Mac and I started researching. We flew out there in 2020,

not even knowing if it is a short doc, is it a feature, what is it? And like I said, we met Paul Kevin Curtis, who's the main character who was initially arrested for trying to assassinate Obama. And within 10 minutes, I was like, Kevin is an incredible storyteller, he's an incredible character. He's so dynamic on screen and he just has an amazing story that no one really knows about And so that was kind of the impetus that started it all that makes sense. He really is such a good storyteller It was wild and I love the storyboards that you guys kind of intertwine throughout the documentary. That's awesome I was gonna say that was it was the way you guys shot this that Like you get that town like while you watch you guys shot this that like you get that town.

Like while you watch it, like you feel that town, you get that. It's like this, like it's over the top in like the best way. Like everyone is shot like so dynamically and in such like dynamic environments for who they are. Like you just got everybody. That's really cool. It was so good.

It's always awesome to hear. I mean like we're less maybe like investigative documentary filmmakers and more tried like storytelling, I think, is what. And the tabatube woe is a character in the story. So it was important for us that it be heightened. We always said it kind of felt like a Tim Burton movie or something a little bit of an upside down world. And it was important for us to capture that.

Had a little bit of a Twilight Zone feel. And it was important for us to capture that, had a little bit of a Twilight Zone feel in the best way possible. Very much. And so it's always really cool to hear that that stuff resonates and comes through. Yeah, it was interesting. Cause even like, yeah, when we went to like Kevin's camper, that was like, we knew this is like a really like authentic,

interesting place that like this, that Kevin lives in, you know, and it was not easy. Cause we, we like to shoot with three cameras for talking at interviews, Kevin lives in, you know, and it was not easy because we we like to shoot with three cameras for talking at interviews, which is like, you know, you at least need two or three is just to get you like an extra angle if you want it. But it but literally like it could only like thank God, Chad, my brother knows how to do sound because like, I kind of would ask the questions, Chad would do sound and run one camera and then our cinematographer, David Bullen, who just like shot so much amazing stuff in this series, it just looked so good.

He was like operating two cameras at the same time. It was a tight spot. We couldn't get everyone in there. But Tuplo was kind of like a little bit like one of the last documentary series we made, Wild Wild Country. There was a town called Antelope and like of like a little bit like one of the last documentary series we made Wild Wild Country. There's a town called Antelope and like it's very culturally different places. But whenever you're a filmmaker and you like get into a town and you're like, oh my God, anywhere I point the camera, it looks great. Like it's cool because it's real, it's authentic. And you really get those in this, these like small historic towns. And then, Tupelo is cool too, just because like Elvis is just pervasive everywhere.

There's like every street corner has an Elvis statue or an Elvis mural or like, and his, like, he looks at you like everywhere you go in that town. And such a vibe. It is a vibe. Like, and in a weird way, like we always felt like that that was like the subtext to the insanity of these characters was like, only like the most famous person probably of all time in Western civilization Elvis Presley like came from this tiny town. kind of perverse, perverted, but really like interesting, fantastical way is like trying to reach that level of like notoriety. Like the like illusion of grand jores are there. So that was always fun to kind of play around with.

Even when Laura said there was one thing that she said where she was like, every girl wanted to sleep with one of the Elvis impersonators like growing up. That was just something you wanted to do. And I was like, absolutely girl wanted to sleep with one of the Elvis impersonators, like growing up. That was just something you wanted to do. And I was like, absolutely, like, of course. Related to Laura. Whoa. She said it at the bucket list. Yeah, she said it like, it's just like,

that's just what you do. Yeah, she's so much fun. Laura is a great character. She was hilarious. She was really cool. I loved her. Very honest, and yeah, that cracked me up when she said that and not in a shameful way but in a very owned it and very prideful way.

Yeah. I was like, all right. That is a fact. Yeah. That's why she said it's a matter of fact. Exactly. So good. The day to day is stressful, man. You got work, you got to figure out your finances, you always have to make dinner.

That's the worst part of being an adult. And some of you people even have kids. That's a lot to figure out. There's a lot of stressful things and, you know, there's a lot of things on the internet about how to manage your stress, but sometimes those things just add more stress onto your plate. Like, I don't know, if I don't get in my journal every day and write about how great my stress management was,

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Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. Did I read that one of you guys used to do autopsies? Is that correct? Yeah, Selena. Yeah, I was an autopsy technician. Okay, so I'm curious, can I ask you a question?

I'm curious, your interpretation and take on this body parts, black market conspiracy. It's just like, it describes what's on the hot seat. We were. We were just talking about this. America is listening, all right? America is listening. You're about to piss off half of America

and become the hero to the hat. So just choose the side. I love it, I'll take it. Choose the side you wanna be on. I'll choose. I'm gonna step my toe over. It's said he went down into the morgue and he was cleaning up and when he said he just opened a fridge to get a Dr. Pepper, I was like, from where? But he was like, we don't have those down there. But when he said he opened it up and he saw,

at first he said he saw a severed head and I saw at first, he said, you know, I saw a severed head and I saw all these body parts. I was like, all right, the severed head, strange. It probably shouldn't be there. But body parts in a freezer are very typical. And I was like, it would freak somewhat like, you know, that you have to store them, you're preserving them for research and for tissue sampling and for donations,

anything like that. Interesting. I mean, we would store entire like spinal columns in the freezer sometimes. So it's like if you opened that, you'd be like, what it would look like Hannibal. And this is a whole point. Outsider would look strange. But for someone who has experience knows like, okay, these things get tested for diseases,

yeah. And it looks strange because it's by itself. I'm curious this. This is an odd question But I did I love that we're talking to like aren't the best expert on this issue on the podcast and not documentary film that we made Me joy But I did have a conversation with someone that also worked in I think a dental morgue is what it's called Which I don't like I guess it's called. I don't like, I guess it's, yes, I don't know.

It's like, I don't know. It's nothing with it. But identify teeth and people. Yeah, I guess so. Something like that. I was in New York City and he made the point, but I'm curious if this was your experience where he was like, my morgue was surprisingly like messier

than you would think. Messier in terms of like, it's grotesque. It can get grotesque down there. So I'm curious if that was your take or if it's like, no, like that's not how it's not, like it doesn't get done, miss. So that's always, it's funny because I think like the CSI effect has made people think that like morgues

are these like high tech, super pristine, everything is like glass. Yeah, like, and it's like, we were very clean and it was cleaned every night and procedures were followed and things were taken care of that way, but it's a wreck. I mean, it's like there's- It's like a car shop or something.

You're gonna have a- Yeah, it's just like, and things are surprisingly not high tech. I always tell people, you have to cut the ribs to take the chest plate off and get to everything. We would use Home Depot hedge cutters to cut ribs. It wasn't like we had a rib cutter that was that.

So they're like the orange handle. Like Home Depot. But yeah, it was, there was a lot of like, a lot of blood smears get on things. It's not, you clean up at the end. Somebody walks in there in the middle of the day. It's gonna be a wreck. The most important important question. I think their audiences are curious about there are no dr. Peppers in Just taking hazmat off

I love that so much. The other thing I was like, tear god. What a choice. I was like, no way. Something you touched on earlier, I do feel like Tupelo is a character. It's almost more of a character than it is of a setting. So what was it like spending those nine months there capturing everything you did? The way documentaries are made now

is it's much more of like a factory machine where you're given two weeks of filming. You have to film all of your interviews and all your B-roll in this amount of time. And I think the one really cool thing about our partnership with Netflix is they really give us like the resources and the time to go live in these places and make these documentaries. And I think when you just fly into somewhere as an outsider with cameras for 10 days and then just throw people on camera and then leave, there's something like very like non-human about it. I feel like you don't actually really get to know the people, the way of life, what they do. So most importantly for us, it was just about

us getting to spend time with these people, have meals with these people, sit around the fire with these people, and learn how to embrace the weirdness of their lives, but also honoring the weirdness and the humanity behind it. Being out there for nine months, it's a cliche, but it does become a big family with all the different subjects, and you get to know their families and by the time you start filming there just is an inherent trust. We know them, they know us and I think it really lends towards kind of getting these more authentic and insightful looks into these characters and their lives. And like it was so funny because like since the documentary comes out like yeah there has been like a big reaction to like wow wow, these are some like weird characters, you know, but I was always like, well, like, what about the two dudes from LA that chose

to go spend like 10 months like, that's weirder than any. And I was like, they're weird, but like, I think we're the weirdest of them all to be like a part of this. But no, like I said at the top, like they were just so welcoming in a way. Like I literally remember the only time I think, and not that like Kevin or Laura cared about this, but it did crack me up. The only time I felt like I ever put my foot in my mouth was when you called, when I called someone an Elvis impersonator. And like I got pulled aside and was like politely but sternly told that they're called Elvis tribute artists. They're not Pete Lewis impersonators. And I always messed that up. I was never able to really commit the Elvis tribute artists to memory.

It's a mouthful. You're like writing it on your hand in between takes. It's a wild town. Like it's, you know, we even have some sections that are a little like heavier, but that was like our experience there. Like Kennedy, who's Kevin's son, kind of goes on a little bit of like a monologue. It was one of the more interesting interviews that I think we did. He talks about the poverty that like he feels like he and the kids around him have kind of lived in. And it's true.

It's like these towns, Tupelo has Elvis, so that does go a long way in terms of like an economy and tourism and it is like a nice town. But it's an interesting experience when you start to get outside of Tupelo and you start to like drive around more in the south and Mississippi and you run into areas that are time capsules from like the 1950s. As a filmmaker, that's an interesting experience, but as a human, it's also, it's heavy. You know, it's heavy to go to a town that, uh, literally as, you know, like I said, as is, is kind of the time capsule. So it's a weird amalgamation, you know, but like one

that, uh, was, was, was poetic and then very interesting. Definitely. It's like an extended field trip to one of the coolest places. It really is. It's a good way of putting it. Also, I think our favorite part about being down there is like people get off their phones and they talk and they hang out and they eat dinners and they cook. And I think for us, like being from California and growing up in Los Angeles, everyone's so tied to their computers and their phones. And honestly, my favorite part was just like eating barbecue outside, listening to the cicadas and hearing them talk about stories was like

for my soul at least we're very very healthy and very positive. Yeah just like disconnecting while reconnecting. Yeah exactly 100 percent. That was poetic. You know I try. That end scene where you guys are at the party with uh what's the senator's name who opened up the documentary? at the party with, what's the senator's name who opened up the documentary? Steve Holland. Steve Holland. Steve Holland. Yeah, yeah. Steve Holland.

When you guys are sitting with him and his family and everything, and then you go to the end with Kevin's family, I'm like, I want to go there. It just feels so wholesome. It really did. I know. It does. It's like, it's a, and again, we were there to talk to them about a presidential assassination plot that deals with body parts that were chopped up in a hospital.

Yeah, that's what she was saying. And then they flew right past that. They didn't care. I didn't mean to cut you off, Chad, but I do find... She nailed it. It was just like, there's a simplicity that is just intoxicating. Much like, let's eat good food. Let's not judge each other.

Let's share a bunch of weird fucking stories and let's have a good time and let's have a beer and let's do a lot of karaoke and sing a lot of Elvis songs. So it was a really fun nine months for us that we spent out there. That's so awesome. You must have heard so much Elvis, like so much Elvis music. I was gonna say, those nine months.

How many facts did you learn about Elvis approximately that you did not know? It was interesting. There was a point in the documentary where I think I was like two months in at Tupelo and I was meeting a lot of people and talking to a lot of people. And I was actually tired and exhausted

with how many times this had happened with people I met where they would ask me, they would talk about Graceland and I would be like, actually tired and exhausted with how many times this had happened with people I met where they would ask me they would talk about Graceland and I would be like well and eventually I'd have to interject and say I have never been to Graceland and then they would just like that was the ultimate like stop like we need to go right now to Graceland so I remember like driving back to Memphis which is like 90 minutes to get back to Memphis, to go to Graceland to take the tour. And, you know, Graceland's cool, but those tours, I have to say that those tours are like three, four hours long.

So it's like that was like when I like, I got my like Elvis education, my master's degree in Elvis on the Graceland tour. But no Elvis like, yeah, they play as I I mean the other cool thing is like you think you go there to be like alright like let's go to on an important day like Elvis the day Elvis died is like typically actually like the biggest celebration day or obviously a birthday's big but it's like every week there's something Elvis perfect like oh this is the week that Elvis performed his first guitar concert at Milo middle school like and then it's like, cool, we're all going to go to Myla Middle School and like see the celebration. So Elvis is everywhere. But it was fun. I don't know, you have to do it. We learned a lot about Elvis. One of my favorite

factoids that didn't make it in and I have no idea if it's true or not. But our main character called Kevin Curtis has a foot fetch. He is very into women's feet. That came across. That's awesome. It's part of the documentary. I remember him telling me that he has it on good authority, that he heard it from family members very close to Elvis, that Elvis as well had a foot fetish. So, it felt like it was another thing that spiritually connected him to the king. And it always found that, it always made me laugh. But also, one of my favorite images, the first time we got there, I didn't even know it was Elvis week, which is like people

fly all over the world. And I remember just like walking by and like passing a man in Elvis outfit, Elvis impersonator. And then he turned the corner and see another Elvis impersonator. And then I turned another corner and he's another Elvis impersonator. And then I turned another corner and I saw like an Elvis impersonator, like drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette outside the coffee shop. And like these images, it was just such bizarre imagery.

And then finally Mac told me that it's Elvis week. And that's why there was literally hundreds of Elvis impersonators just walking around the town. But it was like, I don't know if you see it being John Malkovich, but there's this scene where he walks in and it's just, it's just a restaurant full of John Malkovich. That was, that was our experience. That's so surreal. What a time to arrive.

I know, seriously. So setting Elvis aside for a moment, going back to the meat of the story, which of course includes Elvis, I read that you guys typically look for three things going into filmmaking. Do you mind telling us a little bit about what they are and how they kind of applied to this story? Yeah, I think like we talked about a little bit, but we're always looking for like a strong setting,

a strong location. I think, especially for me, there's so much stuff on Instagram and TikTok and you see so many images that when I watch a documentary, I really want to travel the places I have not been and learn about them and learn about the culture. So setting location is always really important to us and no better place than the birthplace

of the king of rock and roll. And then I think we're always looking for larger than light characters in a way. I found when you have subjects who can be brutally open and honest about their wants, their desires, their insecurities, their failures, their accomplishments, it really allows them to hold a mirror up to the audience. And for some reason allows us as the audience, I think,

to think about our own lives and think and what are our desires and wants and needs and having someone larger than life perform that role. I've always found it makes it easier for the audience to kind of think about their own lives in a way. And so we're always looking for like really interesting characters. And then I think we're also always looking for incredible twists and turns and stories where you do not know where they are going next. And there's kind of two types of documentary filmmaking. You have documentary films that are very like activist driven with an important message. And those are super important for

so many reasons. I just think the only thing as an audience is you already know what the message is. You already know who the good people are, who the bad people are. And it's just a different viewing experience. So for us, I think we're always looking to subvert expectations, keep the audience on their toes. We never want the audience to think they know where the story's going next. And so finding locations, great towns, great settings,

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That's GoodRx.com slash GLP. And I think you like touched on something interesting too, which it's like, you know, I think we're actually at like an interesting time in the world of documentaries and documentary filmmaking, especially at the major platforms where, you know, I think in the last couple of years, it's like fair to say that there is a shift toward stories that people already have some familiarity or an understanding of. And those documentaries are fascinating too, that are on like, hey, you think you know this topic, but let me go ahead and subvert your expectations or present a little bit of a different side or something like that. It's a little bit of a different type of documentary because those comes with its own challenges and obstacles. Over the course of Chapman and my own career,

I think that we've tended to gravitate towards documentaries that most people, and by most people, I mean 90, 95% of people, if you stop them on the street and ask them about the 2013 Rice presidential assassination story, they wouldn't really know what that story is. So they're coming to it for the first time. Wild, wild country was like that too. Like, yes, people in Eastern Oregon certainly remembered the Roshneeshies if they were around and cognizant in the eighties. But for most people where I come from in Southern California, my age obviously had no recognition. And it's interesting because I think that those stories that have the familiarity, that have a name, that have, you know, just a little bit more name

recognition usually do tend to do a little bit better on these platforms. So I think that's the way that the industry's going. But for Chap and I, that's always like the big question mark is like, do we want to make a story that people think that they know and figure out how to make it interesting from there, or do we want to make a story that people think that they know and figure out how to make it interesting from there? Or do we want to make a story that you're in a not zero familiarity with and hopefully you're just along for the ride for all these twists and turns, you know? That's the thing, because I remember hearing of course about like the 2013 presidential attempted assassination, but that was the very tip of the iceberg in this story. Everything,

every time I thought I knew where this story was going, I was like, nope, we're going this way now. Yeah, that's part of the fun. I think, or at least when I'm an audience member, that's what I enjoy. I like being on the edge of my seat. I like thinking that, okay, I know who this character is. And then, boom, they end up turning out to be something totally different or unexpected. And we're trying to, I mean, it can sound crude, but we are trying to make entertainment. People have busy lives. There's a lot of things you can spend your time doing.

I think we take the responsibility seriously that if someone's gonna sit down and press play, we owe it to people to really give them an experience. And sometimes we do better at that than others, but that's always the goal at least is, every time you press play, we wanna make sure you're going on a ride. I think you guys are in the right mindset though with the way you do it with like taking

a story that most people will not be familiar with because I mean personally I love those much more because I love being able to be like, I just heard this story and none of you are going to know about it but I need to tell you everything and now you need to watch this. And I think it's also I think people are starting to know about it, but I need to tell you everything, and now you need to watch this. And I think it's also, I think people are starting to have an appetite for more, like, original and unique content too. Like, slowly, I think we're going to get there,

because I think people are getting sick of even, like, you know, the fictionalized, like, narrative movies that are just kind of, like, being redone, and it's the same thing. And people are looking for original stories and original content, so I think, like, slowly, people are going to come around to realizing that like you want to learn something new. Like you want to go into something totally blind. Yeah, we definitely hope so. And I think I'm the same way you are. Like when I see something about a story I didn't know,

like I'm so much more inclined to want to call it my friends or my family and about it and discuss it and share it. And to me, that's like the best part about doing this is talking to your colleagues at work and sharing stories about what you've seen and what impacted you. So I hope so. We love these kind of like off the beat, weird stories. And hopefully we'll be able to continue doing them. I think you guys are kind of definitely starting to become known for the the weirder stories and just wild fascinating documentaries.

My mom certainly thinks so. She's like, oh, John, what's this other one now? She wants she wants us to do like a great, easy, like a like a cooking documentary. Yeah. Kind of make a great. Yeah. You could, but you could flip it on a table. Discover something crazy about cooking.

There's knives in kitchens, or anything's gonna happen. Oh yeah. So what was different though about making this film than some others that you've made in the past? We kind of touched on it a little bit, but it quickly became clear that it was going to be impossible to like back check or investigate

a lot of these claims. In the beginning, we were sitting there twiddling our thumbs like, what do we do here? I just think we decided early on, let's just fully embrace the madness and the mythology and the storytelling. It's such a part of the culture and these characters. Let's find a way to make that a tension point of the story. Is Kevin telling the truth? You know, the story starts early on with him finding a severed head in a morgue in a hospital,

which kind of kickstarts the whole path to the presidential assassination. And so much of it for us became exploring the humans inside of the story and maybe less the actual true crime facts, if that makes sense. And so I think that's what made this one a little bit more difficult to make. Yeah, well, it's kind of on that point. What Chamin and I would like, we always talked about,

especially with our editor, Neil Michaeljohn, who was a big part of our character and our producer, Juliana, and everyone on our team. Because we've made true crime documentaries before, but we learned conspiracy is actually a weird cousin to true crime, where it's like, true crime, you can rely on facts and motivation of individuals. And that is a part of the fun game of who done it, and we've made those documentaries and we love making those documentaries. Conspiracy is this weird amalgamation of like, well, A, the conspiracy itself is super confusing, but it needs to be like, accurately, or not accurate, but it needs to be like, comprehensible in the editing of it, right? It needs to be comprehensible to a wide audience to understand what the conspiracy is.

But then there's this whole side game of like, yeah, I mean, is this conspiracy real or not? And then you're like, cool, that's a whole nother thing that we need to like kind of dive into and like balance the scales a little bit of like maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But like, and then, and then what was weird about this is like the whole conspiracy of Kevin's conspiracy

and Bonnie Park's conspiracy, and then what was weird about this is like the whole conspiracy of Kevin's conspiracy and body parts conspiracy, and then like average conspiracy that was above Kevin's conspiracy. It got like call it in the sense of like, wait, what is real and what is not? And like, are people even understanding what the conspiracy is? So so I feel like that was the genre of like, we made kind of a weird conspiracy comedy documentary, but the conspiracy was, was the weird part like we made kind of a weird conspiracy comedy documentary, but the conspiracy was the weird part to figure out was certainly my experience. But I didn't need to cut you off. Yeah, but I don't like that. I don't even think we succeeded at that. Yeah. I watched it and I'm like still confused. Yes, the storyline. But you learn something new every time

you watch it. You're like, Oh, yeah, I'm like, oh, maybe it does make sense now, after watching it 100 times. There's nothing better than a town and people with deep, deep lore that you can't verify, that it's all just hearsay. 100%. And it gets passed through telephone style. That was my favorite part. It's like, all of them would kind of share the same story,

but little details would always change. And so I was like, there is some kernel of truth here, you know, but it gets built upon and built upon. And for us that was part of the fun. And I just think the other kind of hard thing about this one was like, I'm not too worried about spoilers now, it's not for a while, but it's like the first half of the documentary is kind of made to convince you that one person committed this crime. And then there's kind of like a big rug pull and a reveal that it was possibly someone else who had framed him. And so I think we had never really seen that in a documentary

before. Like how do we convince an audience 100% that this guy did it? When he didn't, you know, is difficult, you know? And so that was a process that took us a while to kind of figure out. But like I said, I think those kind of reveals and twists and turns make it more fun. So it was difficult, but I think it made it more fun. Yeah, our producer for our show, we watched it at the same time we came into the office the next day. And we're like, we're sitting here watching this and you actually forget that the

man who's talking most of the time, you're sitting there and you're like, wait, how is he not in prison every now and again? And then you're like, okay, wait, but there's so much happening that it doesn't even matter. We'll get there. Yeah. So like, we set up the crime earlier, which is someone tried to kill the president and then it cuts to a guy swimming in his outdoor pool who did it. So you kind of know right away, like, okay, maybe he didn't do it or what, but then our job was like, okay, but now we're going to convince you for the next 90 minutes that this guy most likely did do this.

And I think a lot of people have that experience you did, which is like, he's not in jail, but like a lot of this is adding up and this is getting very strange. And then I think you learn obviously that he was framed and set up and then you get to learn and meet the new character, which was fun for him. I mean, it was funny too, because, you know, this documentary was almost like three parts, sorry, in terms of the production, which like we went and made it all Kevin Curtis documentary. And then this middle part was like federal law enforcement Going and interviewing them because they have a whole perspective and a to Z journey themselves And then the third part was obviously ever Dutch key who is in prison and all the prison phone calls that we did with him

But it was interesting like federal law enforcement Without like blatantly saying it I could tell there was a little bit of like blatantly saying it, I could tell there was a little bit of understandable sensitivity of like, listen, we do a lot of cases and we understand that you want to make a documentary on the one out of 1000 that we arrested the wrong guy and we know that and we did. And they're like, you know, we're not sure about the concept of this documentary because we did get it wrong and we don't want to come off as completely inept at our jobs. we did get it wrong and we don't want to come off as completely inept at our jobs. And I remember being like, I don't think that's going to be that day.

I think a lot of people are going to understand why you made the first arrests you did. At least that's the structure of how we're making the documentary. And it's been interesting because since the documentaries come out, I'm I'm very, I will never have heard of like, Oh yeah, like FBI really messed up this one. I think I think everyone kind of knows like follows the journey and gets wise. Certainly arrested arrested Kevin, you know. Yeah, there's never once during it that you're like, Wow, like the FBI is the problem. Yeah, I get it. I love in the third episode when FBI agents like, reluctantly, reluctantly

admits that it was a pretty good frame job. I always kind of, I always kind of appreciate that. That was so good. And I love when Kevin is like, I don't even like rice. What are you talking about? That was the exonerating fact of the entire investigation was. The fact that it was that too. It's perfect for the documentary. That it's like, I don't think this guy made rice. That was one of our, like early on with just like pre, not pre-interviewing, but you know, it's like you go to dinner with Laura or, you know, Jack the brother or, uh, Paul and or blah, blah, blah.

And like, or the kids, Kevin's kids. And like, you kind of definitely like picked up early that like, uh, how excited they got when they found out how hard it is to make ricin because like me I was not a biology major so it's like ricin like that means nothing on Kevin's intelligence for anyone but but like they were like I don't think any of us know how to make like seeing the like chemical compound designs and they're like the dad's innocent, dude. There's no way. There's no way. There's no way. Maybe it's the guy holding the Mensa card over there.

Yeah, I think it's Mensa guy over here. Exactly. That's the other thing, too. I like how you guys kind of sprinkle in a little bit about Everett Dutschke, like in part one and part two, and then part three comes along and you're like, oh shit, yeah, I remember that guy just from a little bit of parts one and two. Yeah, that's really interesting you bring that up because that was honestly like a huge discussion point for us while making this. In the initial cut, you didn't learn anything

about him until it was revealed that Kevin had been framed. But then it started to feel like a little cheat where you're like, okay, wow, it's shocking, but I don't know this guy at all. And really tried to sprinkle him in a few times throughout. I honestly wish we could have figured out more ways to do it. I think it would have been interesting to even have done it a couple more times, but it was a little bit like an Agatha Christie novel where you're like, you have to set up the characters

and the suspects and like, that's actually really hard to do in documentary because you can't just make things up and you're writing it. But I'm glad that you pointed that out because it was fun to kind of find subtle ways to sprinkle in the real suspect throughout. So that when it's revealed that it's him, you do have a little bit of a memory of who he is. Yeah, it's effective.

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They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow redacted, declassified mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. going off that a little bit more. There's so many things like we're talking about everything right now. There's so many things that happen in this case, and you guys really do an amazing job of connecting it all by the end. What was the process like? Did you like lay everything out on the floor? Were you moving things around? Was it red string? One of the fun parts about this crime is that, you know, so three people got this poison in the mail, were victims of it. These three victims were major enemies, so to speak, of Paul Kevin Curtis, the man that was framed, which is why the FBI obviously

thought it was Kevin. But what made it interesting is that you learn that these three characters were also Everett, the guy who actually did send the Ryzen, were enemies of his as well. And so this is where it started to get a little complex in terms of like, wow, they share the same enemies. Like, how can we set this up in a way and organize it in a way that audiences can kind of understand that component of it? And so, you know, we had the note cards, we had, cards, we had the string on the walls. I remember walking in and watching Mac lose his mind because he was in charge doing most of the

research. And there are times where Mac would just start ranting and I was like, I'm not following anything you're saying. But sure enough, like I said, I think we kind of figured it out by the end, but I'm still not 100% convinced that we even know all the facts that are going to happen. I don't think you ever could. No, but you did do a great job of connecting it. It's easy to follow for sure. By the end of it, you get what's happening. Yeah.

And like Jeff said, my dad was a screenwriter and I think it's an Ernest Hemingway quote where he said, writing is rewriting. But I think that's the Ernest Hemingway quote where he said, writing is rewriting. But I think that's the same thing with like editing. And that was certainly our experience was like more than other documentaries we've made, we have, uh, we really play with structure a lot on this one. We had, we were moving sections around like to just kind of set it up because to go a little deeper on something that we've touched on is the concept of like, hey, we wanted the audience to really think Kevin did this by the time the rug pull happens at the

end of episode two, where you find out he didn't do it. But that is as much of a plot gain plot, a to b to c to d on plot points as it is like a psychological descent in Kevin's mind as you feel like you really like for someone to do a presidential assassination, make rice and put in an envelope some is like a psychological descent in Kevin's mind as you feel. Like for someone to do a presidential assassination, make rice and put it in envelopes of mail to the president, like I think you really need to feel like that person is psychologically capable of wanting to do something like that, you know?

And that was certainly like a big part of the editing and a lot of the aesthetic and the music and everything else that kind of went into the series is like Not just explaining like yeah How you kind of like how Kevin gets to this point, you know? and it's a little bit of a personal journey that you follow with him to go on but then Again, the the weirdest part of making this documentary was like technically none of that is true Kevin didn't do so so you're kind of like always faking your way through to make it feel like he did in a certain way just to set up the gag that he

didn't do it. So maybe it was worth it. Maybe it was. Maybe this is the stupidest documentary. When you explain it, I'm like, this sounds so dumb. It sounds like so stupid. Like you guys spent the three years of your life planning to do this to sell like one joke, like one joke. It was such a good joke though. No, it's so worth the pay off. And he gave you so much to work with.

You're making us feel better. To like fake your way. I'm just getting slowly depressed on this podcast. Just realize how stupid our documentary is. No, it's amazing. I dedicated probably four hours total just sitting in my living room on a snow day. I was like, I think this is the best documentary series I've ever watched. That's very nice of you. I I dedicated probably four hours total just sitting in my living room on a snow day

I was like, I think this is the best series I've ever watched. That's very nice of you. That feels good. That was great In the editing process One of my last questions for you is was there anything that didn't make it in that you wish had or that you know Just couldn't have there's actually two sections that we worked on quite a bit that ended up not making the cut for one reason or the other. One was that we had like a pretty interesting conversation and look into mental health and Kevin's mental health and how his family feels about what he's struggling with. And Kevin had like a very frank and honest discussion about medications he's been on and how certain medications have made him feel over the years and why he doesn't want

to take certain medications. And there was like a really raw and honest look into it. I think for time reasons, we are never able to quite figure out how to get it in there. But I thought it was like a really kind of just like beautifully honest look at what he talks about his struggles, what that experience has been for family members. I think one of the one of the real first reasons we wanted to make this was when we were researching, I kind of became obsessed with this Reddit thread. And it was for family members who had lost loved ones to the QAnon conspiracy.

And it was just their point of view. It wasn't the point of view of the conspiracy theorist. And you would read these posts and it was such a strange combination of being like really fucking hilarious and equally heartbreaking. And I'm like, this is such a odd thing because it's so easy to talk about conspiracy theorists or this and that. breaking. And I'm like, this is such an odd thing because it's so easy to talk about conspiracy theorists or this and that. But when it's a wife or a husband or a brother or a best friend, that's a little bit of a different experience to watch someone you love go through

this. And so that was kind of diving into not only a conspiracy theorist story, but what is it like for the people around this person was important to us. And I think the kind of conversation and the mental health really kind of played into that. I wish we could have included it, but we couldn't for time. And then the other interesting one was, you know, in 1992, Kevin, our main character had, and this is 20 years before the rice and ascent to Obama,

had a standoff with the Chicago police SWAT team and had driven to an ex-girlfriend's house and entered the home with a gun and then was threatening to kill himself inside the home. It turned into a big standoff. This was also a big look into Kevin's mental health and what he struggled with. It was also a big piece of evidence that the FBI used in the presidential ricin attack to say, look, this guy's unstable. This is why we believe that he did this. And so all of that was like a really interesting storyline

and thread that would have added, I think, another layer to the onion, but ended up kind of on the cutting room floor. Yeah, people thought there were too many layers to the onions already. No more layers. It was, it was unique. Like, like Steve Holland could be a character in a feature-length

documentary, like his story from light. And I know he's like a larger than life character, but he also like wielded like incredible effective power, like in the Mississippi state legislature and is responsible for like an array of like unbelievable programs like for the people of Mississippi, for the state of Mississippi. Like I, it was always like, and I think every filmmaker has this and we produce as much as we direct. So I've been on the producing side of these conversations where it's like you're with a filmmaker that's like, oh my God, I could do like six parts I could do eight parts like there is a bit of a

exploration in the state of Mississippi that to this day Fascinates me like and it's hard to explain unless you've gone to that state in a way, but it is like Every left right turn you make every you can take a drive a highway It could go anywhere on the highway. Like it is a, the most fertile ground for like such fascinating, fascinating stories and people that I think there's a reason that like William Faulkner was from Oxford, I think there's a reason that there's like this Southern noir that like eccentricity is a religion down there that like they can tell stories the way they do.

And it was just, I almost felt like we were always having to restrain ourselves from being like, Oh my God, do we go make a 15 minute documentary on this section of Mississippi? That's kind of tangentially tied. And of course you like never do because eventually you're like, Hey, we're making a Netflix documentary and you really need to keep the narrative like as tight as possible. Otherwise people will click off. Um, but it was a unique experience just spending so much time down there and just like, God, I wish we could have done like eight arts on this state and connected all these crazy pieces of information together. You're going to have to go back.

I know it's calling me back. I'm talking myself into it right now. I do think even with the things that you didn't get to include like that conversation with Kevin about his medical history, his mental health history, and even, you know, the incident that happened with his girlfriend. I think the conversations that you did include with one of his girlfriends and even his kids, those conversations, that really shined through and kind of highlighted the mental health section that you didn't feel like you didn't get to put in there. I feel like it was in there. That's really cool to hear. Yeah, I think like a lot of it is implied or you kind of pick up on kind of naturally. I think, yeah, some of my favorite sections, like, yeah, there's a lot of

funny, dark, hilarious stuff, but some of my favorite stuff was the stuff with his kids and friends and family and hearing about their perspectives and kind of what they've been through. I think it just kind of added a level of heart and humanity to the story. And I'm glad to hear that even if we weren't able to include those sections, it still kind of is absurd and you kind of feel it in with. Yeah, definitely. All right. I have two questions left for you guys. One is serious and one is kind of kidding. When do you think Kevin Curtis's missing pieces is going to hit Netflix and are

you going to help them work on it? That is an amazing, you you know what's funny is, so I remember Kevin, when he sat down and told us, like, listen, he's written this book called Missing Pieces. I will say that when he handed it to me, it was a little shorter than I expected. It was like, you know, I was expecting that I was open for the tool of research.

It was a little thinner than that. So I was like, okay, I gotta figure this out. Four to do, six to do. Work on it a little bit than that. So I was like, okay, I gotta, gotta figure this out. But he's got to like pump up the word count here. Just a little bit. Um, but he was the one that said like, Hey, after all, I'm thinking about the story. We've been interviewing him. He's like, I've come to the conclusion that missing pieces is not a missing piece to my body parts conspiracy, but it's something in my personal life and it's, it's been fam, you know?

And so I was like, wow, that was like very poignant and powerful and Kevin can just charm you like that. Like, and genuinely too, like a sincere guy. I'm over here too, but the whole thing started because the Secret Service stole his manuscript, you know, where they raided his home. There was something so funny to me that like, it just feels like some things he would make up or say, and then it's like a hundred percent true that they took his hard drives and he missed his manuscript and had to

rewrite it from scratch. Maybe that's why it's smaller than I expected. Maybe the Secret Service is sitting on the real expanse of missing pieces. That's how I remember the injustice, free missing pieces. I think the government needs to release. I remember going out to dinner with Kevin's family members and I would tell them that story about missing pieces. It's not like Kevin was hiding that from them or something, but I was like, hey, I think

that Kevin's in a spot where this is where he's at right now and I found this really beautiful. Every single person I went out to dinner with said that's, that's a New York Times bestseller. So that's, that's what I hope it is. I hope it's a New York Times bestseller. Is, is I want what that family wants. But I'm not doubting he's been incredible storytelling. He's got a different imagination.

He's really funny with words. I'm rooting for him. I'm, I'm hoping he can finish it. Free missing pieces. I'm rooting for him. I'm hoping he can finish it. Free missing pieces. I'm looking out for it. I'm looking out for it. Someone needs to file a Freedom of Information Act to get the big one. Yes.

Somebody listen. Get on that. Let's go. And then last question for you guys. I am so excited to see whatever you make next. Is there anything that you have in the works or anything you want to tease or plug? The thing that we're working on right now is we are working on it's a big doc series for Netflix We were able to announce it

I think on Christmas Day But like we said we grew up with sports and we are going to do very different than Kings of Tuplo So I'll brace you for that. It is very It'll be interesting if you like this stuff. But it is a 10 part series on Jerry Jones, Jimmy Johnson, the fact, basically the, the, the, the Dallas Cowboys of the 1990s and Jerry Jones and story. It's a big, we're partnered with Skydance and NFL films and we're doing it with Netflix and in the sports world, this story is a bit of a white whale because. Jerry and Jimmy, Jimmy was the coach, Jerry's the owner.

They have an interesting backstory where they won Super Bowls together and then they went their separate ways. We're able to interview all these characters along with Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin and Emmett Smith. So it's a very sports one. We have more volumes of Untold coming out, but we ebb and flow. Sports documentaries are stuff that we love making and there's just a huge audience for that. And it's a great part of the business that we do. And then once we spend a couple years doing sports stuff, we always end up gravitating back towards like Kings of Tupelo or Wild Wild Country or something that's a little bit more off the beaten path.

But Chap, anything else to mention? No, I just remember being like, man, it's so weird being a documentary filmmaker because we went from filming inside Kevin's camper to like the next week we were filming Jerry Jones on his private jet. And it was like, this is too weird. Our lives are too strange. Yeah. We're excited for Dallas Cowboys. It's coming out this summer. And then we're just in the early stages of researching some more strange, off the beaten path stories. Amazing. Well, thank you guys so much for all the extra insight. I loved the Doctor series so much. It was great. Thanks for watching and

thanks for all the nice words. We had a really fun time. That was so much fun chatting with them. I loved that. They were amazing. Yes, definitely. So guys, if you have not yet watched Kings of Tupelo, you got to get on that. It's still on Netflix. It's a three part series and still somehow even throughout that hour long conversation with Chapman and McClain, we really only hit the tip of the iceberg. Oh yeah. It's gonna it's one of those that you're gonna want to tell everybody about after you watch it. It definitely is. So look out for that. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. I'm going to go to the bathroom. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. A few miles from the glass spires of Midtown Atlanta lies the South River Forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police training facility nicknamed Cop City. At approximately nine o'clock this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual without warning, shot a Georgia State Patrol troop. This is We Came to the Forest,

a story about resistance. The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down. Love and fellowship. It was probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. And the lengths will go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts. Follow We Came to the Forest on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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