Morbid - Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Weirdos! Today we've got a special guest -Andrew McMahon of 'Something Corporate', 'Jack's Mannequin', and 'Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness'. In addition to heating about his journey as an artist, Alaina dives into some dark history and tells us about dancing plagues and other instances of hysteria. Want to check out Andrew's music, or purchase merch or tour tickets? Visit https://andrewmcmahon.com/ Don't forget to check out the 'Dear Jack Foundation' which provides impactful programs benefiting adolescents and young adults diagnosed with cancer and their families. For more information visit the foundation's website at https://www.dearjackfoundation.org/ .See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, weirdos, Alayna here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion, no ads, just you, and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. It's time to shop for new styles, electronics, and plan your exciting getaway. And what if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back?

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Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, you weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Elena. And I'm Andrew. And this is a special episode of Morbid, everybody. [♪ Piano music playing in the background. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is heard. The sound of a piano is It's special. We have a guest. We do. Yay. Andrew McMahon on the show. You might know him from one of his several bands. We've got

something corporate, Jack's Mannequin or Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness. That's me. Welcome. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me. You're all of those. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. Thanks for coming. Thanks for being in the studio. It's like such a cool place to be. I'm honored.

So are we. So getting into the questions, I did read that you are somewhat of a child prodigy when it came to the piano. What drew you to the piano so young? I mean, it's gonna get heavy really quick. No, I had a, we had like a loss in our family. My uncle passed away.

And right around that same time, I had a friend's dad teach me how to play a Jerry Lee Lewis song on the piano. And I'd never, I mean, I had piano lessons a little bit as a kid, but I took the chord that he taught me and all of a sudden just started writing songs. And that was kind of how I processed my grief

from losing my uncle. And that was kind of how I processed my grief from losing my uncle. And that was it for me. I was like, this is the thing. You know, like writing songs became my whole, like I would come home from school and I would just sit at the piano until I was told I had to go to sleep or do something for school or whatever.

And it's been that way ever since. That's when you know it's meant to be. When it's something that like heals a part, you know? Yeah, exactly. I just started trying to learn. I got like a keyboard. It's hard. Yeah, I mean, I think when you're nine,

it's like a whole other, right? Everything is so much easier. Yeah, you have that whole sort of neuroplasticity or whatever. And I really liked it, right? So it wasn't like, I didn't start going to piano lessons until like maybe a year or two after that. And so for me, it was just like constant discovery

and like you said, it was like, it was a way to process my world, you know? So I just, I think I blew past the, it's hard part until I got into like having to study classical music and then it was like, this sucks. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wasn't a great student,

but I sort of did what I had to learn how to navigate the piano and read and do all that stuff. But it was always just like a safe haven for me. And it worked out. Yeah, I think. Yeah, we're all thankful for that. It's been the only real job I've had to have my whole life, which is-

That's bad. Which is really a huge gift. I mean, I'm always wondering when the bottom will drop out of that, but- Never. But yeah, so far so good. Yeah. Well, you've been making music since like 1998? Yeah. Well, I mean, since you were a kid, but officially. Yeah. So, Something Corporate, which was like my sort of official second high school band, we, throughout my like, you know, junior, senior high school kind of continued to get bigger

and I sort of skipped college and focused on that. And miraculously, we got signed when I was 18. That's incredible. And that was sort of the beginning of all of it. So I, you know, Semi-Corporate did really well and we toured a ton and put out records. And then, you know, I've kind of hopped from like about every 10 years or so,

start a new project because I'm restless, I guess you could say. And yeah, it's been a journey for sure. And I've had good fans who are willing to follow me through multiple name changes. Here we are. Here we are. Something corporate was my thing in high school.

Like, oh yeah. I love that. 16 year old Elena. Yeah, 16 year old Elena was like at every show, every single show. I think that's how we connected was cause I started having fans message me on Instagram. They're like, you got, you got mentioned on the morbid podcast.

And the first one I was like, oh, that's cool. And then I saw another, you know, another few roll through and I was like, who are these people? I'm like, we should reach out to these women. They keep talking about it and it seemed like they're pretty popular. And then we met at the, what was it? Roadrunner show? Yeah, we met at the Roadrunner show. On the Sunday corporate reunion.

Yup. Thanks to Connor. Yes. Shout out. Connor forever. Connor's a good man. He's a very good man. Yeah.

My tour manager, he's our Gen Z holding down. Hell yeah. Yeah. We like to, I like to bring young bucks into the mix and bring them up. That's always been sort of a part of our mission. And Connor rose the ranks from content to now he's tour manager. Oh, let's go. He's tour manager. He's a good representation of Gen Z.

He is. He is. He's the representation. I'm a, I hate the whole kids these days philosophy. I know. I really like, to me, I feel like it's such a, it's such a sign of you're not actually paying attention. And I've had, I've had my whole perception of the Gen Z universe reshaped by Connor and his, his people and people we've

brought into our camp. And like, these guys are actually hard workers and super fun and very fashionable. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a huge fan. You gotta meet they are. Very fashionable. I'm a huge fan. You gotta meet the right Gen Zs. I'm a millennial, so I like- She's on the cusp. I like to say I'm a millennial because, you know, Gen Z gets a lot of hate. What's funny is like, I always rejected the fact

that I was a millennial because I graduated in 2000 and we didn't have like a qualification. We were just sort of in this nether group between Gen X and whatever was coming next. And then I think by the time I was 30, then they started calling us millennials. And I was like, I denounce this. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I don't like this qualification or designation. I worked at Hollywood Video in high school, like RIP video stores. Guys, that's where you could rent movies. That was where you could rent VHS tapes and also DVDs. My favorite job ever. And I used to make, like we would be able to pick

what could be on the screen. And I would make everybody play this one DVD. And it was like drive-through records. Oh yeah, I remember it well. And I would make them play it just so we could have the something corporate performance. That's amazing. I love that. Like over and over.

I had many of my friends were Blockbuster video employees. And we used to go hang out at Blockbuster on the weekends because they would just, you know, they'd smoke weed in the back and like be, you know, like we're proper degenerate Blockbuster employee, managerial staff. And yes, I do. I miss the Blockbuster days. Such a good vibe. Yeah, it's a good vibe. It really is. That staff. And yes, I do. I miss the Blockbuster.

It's such a good vibe. Yeah, it's a good vibe. It really is. That's one thing I wish I experienced. I remember Blockbuster like a little bit from being like five and six beyond that. I mean, the truth is the new model is working better. Oftentimes there were no videos available at Blockbuster.

But it was a fun sort of snapshot. It's just the environment. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a cozy vibe. Well, It's just the environment. Yeah, yeah. It's like a cozy vibe. Well, going back to the music, how would you say your relationship with music has kind of changed and evolved throughout all the years

that you've been doing it? I mean, look, I think, you're an author, so you know, it's like as you, you start by writing, because it's just like a reflex, and it's this exploratory thing. And I think that the biggest shift is that you have to continue to find ways to explore

and make it fresh and make it exciting. So like I've changed processes over the years, right? You know, I think when some of that like, oh, I just have to be sitting at the piano all day. And like now I have a family and I spent a lot of time on the road. So I do, you know, I do little tricks to sort of re-engage myself

in the writing process. I'll write with other people that I'm really excited about. I try and always like surround myself with writers that are both older and younger than me, just so I can, like I love having people in the room that are still in that phase of writing where they're like hyper creative and just super hungry and it keeps me hungry. So I think that's change.

And then what you write about changes, right? So as you get to certain stages of life and the questions are changing about what is relevant or what's important to you, you have to find new ways in to discuss those things. And I feel like changing projects for me is like, has been a part of that, right? So it's like something corporate was like very much about,

all of the things that you encounter in like high school and coming of age. Intense emotion. Yeah, it's a lot of makeups and breakups. And I think our industry, like the music business is fueled on a lot of that. And as somebody who wants to write and perform and do this till the day I die,

I've had to sort of shift my thinking. A lot of Jack's Mannequin was, I got sick when I was in the middle of that project, so I had cancer and I was a cancer survivor. I was like, how do you write about that? And then sort of shifting into this next phase, a lot of it's been about keeping my edge while maintaining a family and a life

and how to look after my kid and those questions that come with fatherhood and trying to stay creative. So I think those are sort of big parts of how I shift and try and stay creative. I love that. That's cool, cause you can look back on every stage of your life and try and stay creative. I love that. Because you can look back on every stage of your life and there's a song for it or an album for it really.

Yeah, totally. And I think too, like I've tried really hard because a lot of my fans have grown up with me. Like rather than making the mistake, I think a lot of people do as they get older in their artistic processes or trying to sort of recreate their youth and still sing about those things.

And I think the challenge for me is like, how do I really talk about what's relevant to me now and put that in a pop song? And that can be tricky. Yeah, but I think if you strike on something that's universal, it applies backwards and forwards. And I want people who've been with me for a really long time to be like, oh, he's talking to an experience that I'm having right now because we're a similar age and going through similar things in

life. But also if I do it well, you could be 15 and pick up that record and it will land. Most of the artists I was listening to when I was 15 were much older than I was. And somehow those songs were still connecting. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's like what you just said. People who've listened to you have grown up with you now. So it's funny because when we went to the Something Corporate concert where we met,

it was funny to look around and see, I was like, oh, it's just like a bunch of moms and dads being like, just transporting back into something corporate days. But it's fun because it's like, we've been able to relate to you in the music the entire way through. And you can feel the shifts, but they're so smooth because you're going, we're going into that phase so we're going to go in there together. So it's just been really nice. Like last night we were talking about Bluey and I was like, wow, we're just parents now together. Like that's wild. I think it's like a task, but I think it's a worthy one.

And I'm super reverent of the fact that there are people who I've been seeing at shows since they were high school, middle age kids coming out to see me. When I was not much older than them, I was 18 or 19, but it felt like a world apart, right? When you're sort of like grown, and then you have like a kid in the audience,

now we're sort of orbiting the same life trajectories. And I really like, I wanna make music for those people who have been in those rooms and I want them to have songs that they can connect to at this stage of wherever they're at. You're killing it. No, thank you. I try really hard.

And it trickles down, because there was like three generations of us at that show, because it was Elena, me, and my little cousin. So it's like, I started listening to you when I was like six, and then still do. Because I was like, you're listening. And my cousin's like three singing,

like I woke up in a car. So it does trickle down. Yeah, well, like the shows I went to, when I was, you know, the first shows I was going to, I love your listening. My cousin's like three singing like I woke up in a car. So it does trickle down. Yeah, well, like the shows I went to when I was, you know, the first shows I was going to, a lot of them were bands, my brothers and sisters, three of them are 10, 12 years older than I am. And, you know, I went to see REM when I was, you know,

when I was in the seventh grade or whatever. I love that. And, you know, when I became a huge Tom Petty fan and like going to those shows, seeing the young people that were picking up, you know, heartbreakers to me, to my people, my brothers and sisters, ages and older, you know, in a dream world, that's really what you want. You wanna see people across generations

connecting to what you do. And that's sort of the fight I'm in every day is just to sort of make sure that, you know, it spreads to as many people across generations as possible. It works. It does. It's working. My youngest is obsessed with Happy. I love that.

She was like, wait a second, he sings Happy? I was like, yup. And she's five, so you're hitting all ranges. That's the deal, yeah. Transcend. Well, finally, to transition us into like ranges. That's the deal, yeah. Yeah, it transcends. Well, finally, to transition us into our world of Morbid and Macabre, you have a song with your band Something Corporate called Me and the Moon.

Yes. It's one of my favorites. It's a little more eerie and haunting. It's not the typical style for you. So tell us a little bit about where the idea for that song came from, how it came to be. We'll see. When we put out the first something corporate record,

I think a lot of that music was really reflective of sort of our high school, post high school journey. Cause a lot of those songs were written in that time. And that was sort of the first record we went out and toured the world with and got it noticed for. And then, you know, by that point that I was coming back to write those songs for North,

I was just in a much different head space. And it was like, I wanted to do something moodier. And it was like the first time I was living in Jordan Pundick from Newfound glory, I was living in his guest room. And it was sort of the first time I lived away from my parents. And so I had all this freedom just to sit in a room

and write all day. And I mean, I would be lying to say I wasn't like smoking a ton of weed at that point and just playing the piano and just trying to find new chords and new chord shapes and progressions. And I got to the sort of piano figure that plays under the verses of that song,

which I was like, this is so cool. Like I really, it felt like something really new for me. And the first words that showed up were it was, it's a good year for a murder. And then- So good. It's such a good opening line. I remember even in that moment being like,

oh, this is gonna land pretty interesting. Like this is different. Yeah, I'm like punk rap princess to let's talk about murder, you know? But I was just in love with it. And it sort of wrote itself, like the verses wrote itself. And it became about this sort of idea of like a suburban mother finally reaching her breaking point with her husband. And

missing out on a show that everyone is talking about just simply is not an option for me. I'm constantly signing up for this streaming service or that one. I have like 400 gajillion. And then a few months later, I realized that I've still been paying for the service way after I finished the show and I actually don't watch anything else on that network. Getting Rocket Money, though, was a game changer for me. They'll find your unwanted subscriptions and even help you cancel them so that you never have to worry about them slipping through the cracks.

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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I have such an incredible support system around me. I'm so lucky to have a husband who supports literally everything I do. I have a sister who is always behind my back. Actually, I have two sisters who's always behind my back in a good way, cheering me on. Support systems are so important. Think about your favorite leaders, mentors, and idols. They don't all have the answers, but they do know when to ask questions

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really dissect the different things that I'm going through. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, and it's serving over five million people worldwide. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. And, you know, I grew up in an amazing house. By the time I was in high school, it was like a house full of women. It was like my sister and my mom and me.

And you know, my mom never tried to kill my dad. So there's none of that. Desperate that lore right now. I think I could relate to the angst of that, just having been, you know, my mom and I were super close growing up. And so it was like, originally it was a courtroom drama. Like the chorus was like,

was all about what happens after the murder. And then it didn't fit right. Whittled it down. And me and the band were on tour in, we were in Amsterdam, I think, or something like that. Or no, maybe, yeah, we were, we were, no, we were in Leeds and ended up meeting up with a couple of the drive-through bands and went on a very wild sort of psychedelic journey.

Nice. And I remember I was following the moon all night by myself through Leeds, England. That was like, I was certain it was calling me. It was you in the moon. I won't through Leeds, England. I was like, I was certain it was calling me. It was you and the moon. I won't paint the details of what led me to that moment, but I remember just going like,

I just want to go see where this moon is at. Hell yeah. And I just followed it through the streets. It was you and the moon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably. Until I ended up like locked in a hotel bathroom and I had this piece of paper and I just wrote, it's me and the moon.

And I like- Oh my God just wrote, it's me and the moon. And I like, Oh my God, stop. That's amazing. The handwriting was, it was like cursive and just kind of like, writing the words was actually a part of the journey. And I woke up with that piece of paper and I ended up on a stage sound checking and I finished the song on stage and I was like, and I finished the song on stage and I was like, and just wrote the chorus to the rest of the song that day. Wow.

And yeah, it's been one of my favorites forever. And the fact that fans followed us into that phase was such a huge thing. Cause I was like, are they gonna hate me for taking this hard left turn into six, eight sort of murder mystery song. It was welcome. That's good.

But yeah, that song was a journey from start to finish and still I think like is a high watermark for something corporate catalog. Yes, definitely. I remember hearing that song for the first time and being like, what is this? It was like, excuse me? It was definitely a challenge to fans to be like, do is this? I was like, excuse me? Loved it.

It was definitely a challenge to fans to be like, do you wanna go here? But it gave me a lot of hope for the future too, that it was like, okay, cool, I can stretch out and people take a chance and follow us. If we'll go with you for Murder. Yeah, yeah. The sky's the limit.

The sky's the limit. Like, you're good. It's such a great song. Thank you so much. And I think now we can go into dancing plagues. Yes. You know, quite the transition. Because music, dancing, you do a lot of dancing on stage.

Yeah, I love to dance. It's part of the whole thing. So we're gonna talk about dancing plagues and we're also gonna talk about a couple of nunneries that just had some stuff going on that I thought was pretty... I love that. Hysteria is kind of where we're going here. of nunneries that just had some stuff going on that I thought was pretty... Perfect. I love that. Hysteria is kind of where we're going. I was raised a Catholic, so I'm all for getting into the nun phase of this.

So let's do this. So we're gonna start way back. This was on Christmas Eve in 1021 CE. Oh shit, way back. This is where it begins. So this small German town called Kolbeek, I looked up all these pronunciations, so don't come for me. No, you always kill the pronunciations. I try. In a good way. Sometimes I kill it the other way. So 18 of the town's residents gathered outside of the church and started dancing, just started dancing and carrying on with wild abandon. And the noise from these dancers made it impossible for the priests to deliver mass. So he went outside and he started to reprimand the group and they were

just seeming completely oblivious to him. Like it wasn't like they were ignoring him. They just like didn't even know he was there, just kept going. And rather than heed the priest's words, which at that time people would heed that priest's words. They just continued dancing and clapping and leaping. And they were forming what would later be documented to be called a ring dance of sin. Oh, obsessed. Which I kind of love. I want in. Right. Where do I sign up for the ring dance of sin?

So according to the legend, the priest, who was very angry, very incensed about the interruption and disrespect, quite frankly, cursed them all to dance for the entire year and none of them were able to regain control of their bodies until the following Christmas. What? The priest did this? Which I didn't realize priests could curse people. So he insisted that they keep going because they had even started. He was like, oh, you want to dance? You're going to dance until next Christmas. Yeah.

Wow. And they did. And by the time the curse was ended, the group was exhausted and reportedly fell into a deep sleep. And a lot of them never woke up from that deep sleep. So some of them died. So he just straight up killed some of them. Spoke a priest. Can I ask practical questions about food and bathroom? None of that. In fact, many of these dancing plagues, food, bathroom breaks, like sleep, don't happen. They just dance through it and that's how most of them die. Wow.

There's deaths that come out of these. Are they just like peeing all over themselves? Probably. It's probably, it's reckless. Rancid. Like whatever is happening there is a lot. So some people live for a year doing this. I guess so, or they would join, I think, maybe others would join. So given, you know, how old this story is, obviously, I'm sure there's been some embellishments. Yeah. But according to historian John Waller, there was nothing in the story

that medieval people found hard to believe. To be quite honest. They're like, yeah, whatever. People probably would dance themselves for a year to death. Because it was a society that was very accustomed to assigning supernatural explanations to literally anything they couldn't understand. So the idea of such crazy behavior being the result of a curse from a holy man was like, yeah, obviously. Yeah, why not? That's what happened. And as he points out, plenty of sources indicate

that this obscure chronicler may have embellished a real event. So there was truth to this. Basically the details might've been a little bit exaggerated, but that like manic and like uncontrollable dance that they were doing probably happened, because it has happened. So this was kind of the beginning of like dancing plagues being documented.

Now 200 years later in a German town of Erfurt, looked it up, a similarly crazy and bizarre outbreak of dancing mania broke out in 1247. So this time at least 200 people are said to have gathered on a bridge. And it was over the Mosel River in Maastricht where they danced until the bridge collapsed. Stop it. And all of them died. Said rocket to the wheels fall off. They did.

And then they died. And then that was it. Bridge collapsed, everyone died. That was it. And then there's... So that happened. How long were they up there for, does it say? It doesn't say how long, but I feel like it probably wasn't that long. Because 200 people on a bridge. Yeah. I don't think the structural integrity of bridges in 1247 was like something of note. Not quite the same as today.

So I'm assuming they all just went down. But there is a second version of this story. So there is like a little wiggle room. Okay. So this one, in this version of the story, the same thing happened, except everyone didn't die. People died, but there were survivors. And people say that some of those survivors were taken to a nearby chapel. Where they kept dancing. And this nearby chapel was dedicated to Saint Vitis, which, or Vitis, excuse me,

where these people receive treatment for their quote unquote mania, and many of them were restored to full health. So they said they went to the specific chapel and that's what cured them. And they never danced again. Never danced again. So a flash mob gone wrong. Flash mob gone horribly wrong. And then a chapel was able to heal any of the survivors. And St. Vitus comes up a few times.

What's St. Vitus the saint of? That's, apparently he's like, he has something to do with dance. Like he has something to do with it. And he is able to, he's got spread up a lot. Cause the dancing madness actually gets translated into being called Saint Vitus Dance. Oh, nice. So what is he the, is he a patron saint of anything?

Hold on. Let's look. You're like, wait a second. I'm excited for this. Because he comes up a lot. I don't know if this is the one. Is the patron saint of standing still? Of chilling. Yeah.

Of chilling. So his name is sometimes rendered Guy or Guido, was a Christian, a Christian martyr, I know, from Sicily. I remember. Of chillin'. Of chillin'. So his name is sometimes rendered Guy or Guido, was a Christian martyr, I know, from Sicily. I know. His surviving hagiography. Obviously. Yeah, that is pure legend, blah, blah, blah. I don't know if he's a patron saint.

He's the patron saint of dance. I think we can all agree. Let's go with that. Yeah, exactly. You'll take like... Yeah, it is also led to Vitis being considered the patron saint of dancers and entertainers in general. He is also said to protect against lightning strikes,

animal attacks, and oversleeping. That's sick of him. Yeah, I appreciate that. He does not guide me. I'm oversleeping all the time. He didn't help the first group that slept until they died. No, exactly. Didn't help them.

Now, it's from this like second telling of that story that the affliction got the name Chorus Mania, which is Greek and it translates to dancing madness. And now it's more well known as St. Vitus Dance. So he gets to be named in the affliction. That's fun. Now over time, the terminology would change a little bit, but the behavior would end up being called chorea, which is an actual disorder. And it's incorrectly that, like referred to as that, because this disorder, chorea, is

a disorder of the central nervous system that causes like irregular, like brief jerking moments, like movements, but it's not dancing. They meant choreo. Yeah, it's just, they meant choreo and then choreo is not that. It's not hanging with your homies on a bridge, dancing until it falls down. So if you ever hear somebody say it, you correct them if you ever hear them saying it. I'm sure it comes up a lot. In the blood.

All the time. It's very common in my bit. It comes up on the road a lot. So these two early examples were contained to Germany, but a similar form of hysteria that kind of had like similar symptoms to it was known as Tarentism. And it emerged in the 13th century in Italy.

And according to Robert Bartholomew, which I am obsessed with the name Bartholomew. Same, I love it a lot. Why isn't it used anymore? I don't know. He said, people asleep or awake would suddenly jump up feeling an acute pain like the sting of a bee. Some saw the spider, others did not, but they knew that it must be from the tarantula.

Like capital T, the spider? The spider. Okay, not a spider. Nope, the spider. The only spider. The only spider. Nope, the spider. The only spider. The only spider. They ran out of the house into the street to the marketplace dancing in great excitement. Soon they were joined who like them had been bitten or by people who had been stung in

previous years for the disease was never quite cured. The poison remained in the body and reactivated every year in the heat of the summer. What? I love this. This is amazing. I wish this still happened. reactivated every year in the heat of the summer. What? I love, I love that. This is amazing. I wish this still happened. I feel like it probably does. Maybe we just don't care about it.

Let's make it happen. Let's make it, flash mobs are actually this. Yeah, pretty much. They've all been bitten. They have by the spider. And it happens in the heat of, I like that it like reactivates in the heat of the summer. Yeah.

Like summer, we're gonna get crazy with it. Like let's party. Yeah. Makes sense. And it's called Tarentism and it's most often girls and young women are afflicted. Nah. Probably because they're like hysteria, am I right? Girls and women. That's so crazy. I'm so random.

Yeah. And that's when it got labeled hysteria, when they were like, oh, girls and young women get it. Yeah. Hysteria. Like the dancing plagues, there was no identifiable cause of the Tarentism because like a tarantula bite doesn't cause this. So like there's no reason for this, but they just believed it to be like a mass, like psychogenic illness, which is even scarier.

Yeah, a little bit. It's probably just a reaction to the times. That's honestly- Everybody's probably bored. Like in the end, that kind of is what it feels like it is. We feel depressed, now it's time to wild out. Yeah. It's like a better version of the witch trials. Yeah.

Like a way better version. A much better version. Way better. Yeah. So the early instances of the dancing plagues were pretty limited in size and scope, and they were, again, like limited to specific locations. But then came 1374 y'all. An outbreak of dancing mania started in a German city

of Aachen, I believe it is. And it eventually spread to other cities outside of Germany. So it's happening. Dancing everywhere. Were they all happening at the same time? Was it like? Some of them were. And then. Were they all happening at the same time? Was it like- Some of them were, and then some of them would start at the end

of the next one, and it was just like a continuous thing. Like a wave. Yeah, like a wave in a stadium. The outbreak of 1374, sometimes referred to as St. John's dance, began like the others. So it was like a small group forming a circle in the town square, starting to dance with each other. But the thing that keeps happening with these is, starting to dance with each other. But the

thing that keeps happening with these is they start to dance and it's like, fine. And then they get more frenzied and it just like loses all control. And that's what they lose control of their senses. They don't care who's near them. They're like whirling around, like looking like they're in like a state of just like ecstasy. like it's like a trance. Like a straight up rave. I was at a show like last year, it feels similar. You're like, I had this. That was it. Some would dance for hours, some would dance for days at a time, not stopping. Not stopping to eat, drink, sleep, piss, anything.

Damn. There it is. Yeah, there we go. And when they did finally stop, the dancers all spoke of some undeniable compulsion to dance. And then they would complain of extreme oppression and groaned as if in the agonies of death. What? And then they would groan until they were swathed in clothes, spread out tightly around their waists.

What? Well, I feel like they probably were aching from dancing. Yeah, you ever take a Zumba class? It's a lot. You need one of those little rollerball things? Yeah, just get it all out. Or that little machine we have that can like, like, get a tight muscle out. Yeah, yeah. So a short time later the dancers' pain would subside because they would get the rollerball or do whatever they needed to do. When they finished Zumba. And they remained pain free

until the next compulsion came over them. And then it would keep happening. Like they would go through periods of time where they were fine. And then they just start dancing a fool again. Oh no. Did they say they enjoyed the dancing when they were doing it or was it?

I think they were in like a trance. So I don't think they could even remember. They didn't know. They just felt the pain afterwards, which sucks. Yeah. But within a few weeks, that plague, the St. John's Dance Plague, had spread to Liege, Utrecht and Tongres. Those places. Those places. And then further out to towns in Belgium and the Netherlands. Wow.

And according to one account, they danced together ceaselessly for hours or days and in wild delirium. The dancers collapsed and fell to the ground exhausted, groaning and sighing as if in the agonies of death. And many later claimed that they had seen, this is literally my favorite thing I've ever heard by the way. I'm so excited. Many of them claimed that they had seen the walls of heaven split open and that Jesus

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during this dancing session. So you just have to dance your way into heaven, that's all. You do, that's it. I feel like that's actually probably true. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a reaction to whatever they're religious. Being oppressed by.

Yeah, yeah, they're like, okay, we have to chill, but if we just go freak out, we can claim we're seeing heaven. It's a path. It's a religious path we're following. They're like, Jesus and Mary are over here. Like they came in. They're like, let's go. They're joining the ring of sin, whatever it was.

It'd be fun if the priest joined in at that point. They're like, is this how we do it? It is. That's how fun math starts. Jesus and Mary are here, you said? So for the next hundred years, people in Germany and surrounding countries would periodically fall into these trances and manias.

A hundred years? Yeah. In 1491, this is literally my favorite thing ever, by the way. In 1491, several residents of a nunnery, here we go, in the Habsburg, Netherlands were overcome with the compulsion to dance. But this time, it wasn't just dancing. So there was some that just like, we're getting their groove on. And then they would also be accompanied by instances of nun. Hold on to your

habits. They would climb trees and behave like cats. And they would all meow together. Rad. I love this. I hate that this wasn't on film. Climbing up the trees. Just climbing in a full habit. That's all I'm thinking of is full nun gear. Just like lifting a tree. In a tree just be like, what the fuck? I love it. Also in this delirium, it gets racy because they would sexually proposition the priest. Good. Iconic. And then it got better because the priests were like, no, no. And they would call exorcists to be like, clearly this demon's afoot. And when the exorcists would come, the nuns would sexually proposition the exorcists.

Stop. I'm obsessed with it. I don't know why I love it so much. Let them live. Let them live. Yeah. And like the people in 11th century Germany, the nun's affliction was believed to be a curse obviously, brought by Saint Vitus. And it was apparently supposed to be in response to the supposed moral laxity and split from the church of the period. So they were like,

now we've got our answer. Here it comes. So that's what that, and I guess other supernatural suspects in the case that were brought up were St. John the Baptist, demons as a whole. Of course. Any demon will do. The hierarchy of demons. And Satan himself. Oh shit.

Yeah. Which apparently some of the nuns, while they were sexually propositioning the priests and the exorcists and not getting any, they were getting pushback, they were like, well, that's fine because I have also fucked Satan. So, they were getting pushback. They were like, well, that's fine because I have also fucked Satan. So like they literally being like- The nuns would say that? Yeah, they were literally, I don't,

probably not like that. Not exactly like that. They probably had a nun way of saying it. Maybe. They've had relations with the devil. Wow. Basically. Yeah, so they were claiming it. Like, let's go girls.

When it was over, were they allowed to stay in the nunnery or were they exiled? That's a great question. I don't think they were exiled. Okay. But perhaps they were. I feel like when you said you fuck the devil, I feel like that's your time to step out. I don't think they're gonna find a new path in life. I don't think you get like, this is one strike kind of thing. Now in the 15th century in German, this is another nunnery because this is awesome. One nun started biting the others. Was she dancing first or she just started biting? Was she? There's no dancing involved.

Was she one of the cat nuns? She was not one of the cat nuns. Okay, interesting. This is a different nunnery. Okay. So she starts biting the other nuns and then they were all like, wow, that sucks, don't do that. And then after a while... Direct quote. Yeah, they were like, wow, direct quote on the record, that sucks, stop doing that. And then one of them was like, well, I guess I'll just bite you back, which I get it.

Fair, yeah. Like if she's still biting you. Don't bite me. Bite her back. Yeah. And one of them bit her back and then they all started biting each other. And then they were just rapidly biting you. All of they all started biting each other. And then they were just rapidly biting it. Like all of them just started biting each other, biting the priests. Oh, and then they brought the pieces. This is not a sanitary time. It's never a good time to bite anybody, but that's bad. Are they still dancing while they're biting? That's the question. I feel like dancing may not have been a part of this one. It might've just

been a biting scenario, but it would be really funny to think of them dancing and biting. Get their groove on. Just great. And every once in a while the beat drops and they bite someone. just been a biting scenario, but it would be really funny to think of them dancing and biting. Get their groove on. Just great. And every once in a while the beat drops and they bite someone. Yeah. Yeah. So then words spread about this affliction, because people were like, whoa, have you heard of this? These nuns go crazy.

And the affliction started spreading. The biting one. Yeah. Now the biting one's going. We got a lot going on. Apparently nunneries in Saxenburg and Brandenburg, you know, Holland, now even Rome. Whoa. All biting each other and biting the priests. And meowing.

And meowing. There was meowing as well. Awesome. And it only stopped, and this is literally documented, it says it only stopped because they got exhausted. Exhausted of biting each other? They just got tired. At some point you're going to get tired.

Yeah, you're tired now. I mean, yeah. I wonder how long. I know. How long can you bite someone? I don't know. Right in. So, more to podcast at gmail.com.

Yeah, let us know. Do an experiment. It would be great if after this airs, these plagues begin spreading all over again. Exactly, like Pops and Badger. We're responsible. Now by far the most notorious of the dancing plagues occurred in Strasbourg, France in July 1518. This is the one that a lot of people know about.

The event began pretty innocuously. It was just a single older woman just going into the streets, into the city centre. Her name was Frau Trofea, I think is what I say it. Love it. Queen. That's how I say it. She's walked out and she was like, let's do this. And she just started dancing. She said, let's dance. Let's go. Yeah. She used to David Bowie before David Bowie.

Yeah, she used to dance with David Bowie. Hell yeah. Before her time. That's where David Bowie came from. He came from a dancing plate. A nunnery of dancing. Yeah, a dancing plate in a nunnery. Canon. That is where David Bowie came from. He came from a dancing plague. An unnery of dancing. Yeah, a dancing plague in an unnery. Canon. That is where David Bowie came from.

He came from a dancing plague. It was frow. So by mid-August, and she wouldn't stop, of course, because that's how these work. She had a plague. She had a plague. By mid-August, hundreds of people had joined her in the town square. Again, a fosh mob. All of them uncontrollable.

And like the previous ones, the dancers in Strasbourg, never stopped to eat, never stopped to drink, sleep, nothing. Not long after the mania began, quote, as many as 15 people a day dropped dead. Oh my God. What a way to go out though. I mean.

It seemed like, I mean, there were a lot of ways you could die back then, but it seems like dancing would have been one of the better ones. I would choose that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like real plague or dancing plague. Yeah, dance baby. I'm picking dancing plague.

Yeah. And they just kept going. So people would be dropping dead and they were still dancing. Oh, for their dead bodies. It's not like they stopped and were like, pause, like, let's get this one out. Nope. They just danced. People dropping.

Wow. Yeah. And unlike many of the earlier dancing plagues, which were recounted a lot, like they would kind of change over time, like folklore, this one, this particular one in 1518 was very well documented. Like it's a real event that is very documented. It's appeared in everything from historical text, news accounts, church and medical documents. It's like in a lot of things. And according to many of these documents, the woman who started the plague was brought to a church devoted to, can we guess?

St. Vincent. St. Vitus. Oh, Vitus, my bad. Maybe St. Vincent too, who knows? A few days after she started dancing, she was brought to a church devoted to him and she was cured apparently. This is while the other people are still dancing. They're still going.

They're like, you started this, we're gonna take care of you, but we're gonna let the others go. Yeah, they're trying to chop the head off the snake and see if it all falls. Maybe if she stops. Yeah. Maybe if Rau stops, no, they all just kept going. Because in the days after that, others started joining more even. As soon as her absence was felt, they were like, we need to beef this up.

Let's dance for her. Let's get more people in here. So in order to curtail the mania, the city forbade musicians to perform publicly. Oh, boo. Which like, that sucks. Lame. Yeah. Kind of a killjoy. And eventually started taking the dancers one by one to the St. Vitus church to get treatment.

And no matter how quickly they removed the dancers off the streets to St. Vitus's church there, they were just replaced by new dancers. People would just show up. It's like one leaves, five more come. Yeah, they had alternates. See, they had to cancel the musicians because they're like, this is easy for us. We can just go and we already have an audience. Yeah, like, oh yeah, let's go. I know, they were like, we can really get big here.

Yeah, this is our spot. They're like running around the dancers being like, listen to my demo. Get a record deal out here. Now in the decades and centuries that followed this, dancing plagues continued across Europe with significant events occurring in the 16th and 17th centuries in Switzerland and Italy. And there hasn't been like a really documented case of dancing media in a lot of centuries, but Tarentism, which is like thought to be kind of similar,

has been documented in Italy as recently as the 1950s. Oh shit. So. So remind me Tarentism, it isn't dancing, but it's just sort of like- It is kind of dancing. It is, okay. Yeah, it is kind of dancing,

but it's like a little different because they claim it's from a spider. Okay. Like you get bit by a tarantula, which I didn't even know they had tarantulas in Italy. That was news to me. I don't think I knew that either. I don't know where I thought tarantulas were.

Australia. I think everything's in Australia. Period. I can attest to Joshua Tree. Oh my god, they're there too? There was actually the last Jackson Mannequin record we almost named Tarantula mating season. Because we actually rented a house in Joshua Tree during Tarantula mating season, and they were everywhere.

Oh, that's so upsetting. And I mean, I don't care for spiders. No. Big ones I care for less. That's so upsetting. I mean, I don't care for spiders, but big ones I care for less. Yeah, way less. So if you ever wanna go get some Tarrantism, I recommend Joshua Tree around October, November. He's spreading on their yell page.

So they were, were they like in the house? There is, I wish I could find this video because there's a video of me and two of my bandmates running around the house screaming in like a high pitch, like trying to chase a tarantula out of their house. How big? I mean, bigger than my hand. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're huge. No. I'd just start crying and never stop. No. That's the thing. I don't cry easily. No, you don't. I would start sobbing uncontrollably if I saw a tarantula, I think.

Yeah, 100%. I cry easily. And in my house, I'd never sleep in there again. It's my understanding they're not that, like, I don't know that the big ones are that bad. No, I don't think they really do much. Yeah, but they don't. But just exist.

They don't look like anything you wanna spend time with. It's unfortunate for them. I know, I feel like up close, aren't they really cute? Like their faces. Their faces are kind of cute. Like with like a magnifying glass. I never found them cute. You're like me now. You said actually no.

It's not my thing. That's in Australia, the huntsman spiders. My TikTok has figured out that I hate them, but that I will watch a whole video about one. So it just keeps giving me Huntsman spider videos. And apparently you can hear Huntsman's walking down the hall. No. They're so big.

No. And I was like, that's all I need to know. I can't ever go to Australia. Not for me. Ever. I die. And people have like house Huntsman's where they're just like, oh, that's just like Leroy. He just lives here. He takes care of the bugs. I'm like, who takes care of him though? Like who? He's lawless.

You can't like, you're like, he takes care of like the mosquitoes. I'm like, I, what? I'd rather get bit by a mosquito than live with Lee Roy. You can't look like that. Oh, I can't. I cannot. So yeah, if you ever want that, go to Joshua Tree, apparently during their mating season. So yeah, if you ever want that, go to Joshua Tree, apparently during their mating season. Now, people obviously blamed all these manias on either the spider or the devil and other supernatural shit for all the dancing plagues. But lots of religious intervention was obviously brought in to treat them, exorcisms and the like. And in cases where the dancers, this is interesting, because this is kind

of very regional. So it's like they would do these things where it's like the treatments for it were very regional to what they were thinking or believing in that place. But when the dancers were foreign, like not of that area, the regional cultural differences would uphold the belief in demonic possession. So like, it would always go back to demonic possession. But according to Robert Bartholomew, quote, the behavior of these dancers was described as strange because while exhibiting actions that were part of the Christian tradition, other elements were foreign. And he points to one account that says, in their songs, they uttered the names of devils never

before heard of, this strange sect. So how would you know what they were? So it's like, what? So how do you know they're devils too? Maybe they're gods. Maybe they're angels. Yeah. Maybe they're friends. Well, if you're dancing, the devil has to be a part of it. Obviously. Several devils have to be a part of it. Obviously. That's true. Several devils have to be a part of it. Now demonic possession was really the main suspect in the beginning, but in later plagues, the cause of the mania would often be attributed, because obviously we hear it in like the nunnery, it would be attributed to immorality and sin, particularly those in which the dances were

overtly sexual or predominantly performed by? Women. Women. One description read, they indulged in disgraceful immodesty for many women during the shameful dance and mock bridal singing, bared their bosoms while others of their own accord offered their virtue. Oh, honey. So now these ladies are out there just being like, coming at us. Sprooming in the streets. Show an ankle. Showing ankle.

Showing ankle. Yeah, exactly. What is offered their virtue though? What is the- That's what I want there. Literally show an ankle. Yeah, they showed their shoulders. Yeah. It's like, do you want to hold my hand and dance? And they're like, holy shit. You gotta get inside, girls. To a nunnery where you can start meowing and propositioning priests. Yeah. Now in later years, such as, you know, the dancing plague in Strasbourg, like the really

famous one, the events were frequently kind of attributed to madness and hysteria as a whole, especially when they were begun, again, by girls or women. Historian John Waller says that there is considerable evidence that suggests the dancing plagues and the possession epidemics of Europe's nunneries were in fact classic instances of a very different phenomenon, mass psychogenic illness, which is way scarier to me. Yeah, I don't love that. Like if you're telling me the devil came and made me dance, I'm like, okay. That's fun.

Like that happens. But like mass psychogenic illness? Boo. What is that? So what's the definition of psychogenic illness then? So that's really like where the term mass hysteria comes from, where they can't pinpoint it. It's like in the Salem witch trials, they tried to blame it on like ergot poisoning,

like fungus on the wheat essentially. And it causes some kind of food poisoning that leads to this like wild illness that everybody just- Like psychosis. You're hallucinating or something. Yeah, I think it's like group think. Like I think it's really just, you've seen instances of it where like, you can get people to do

insane things if you just make it a group effort. And again, there wasn't a lot to do back then. There certainly wasn't. There really wasn't. And in the majority of cases of dancing plagues, the years we were touching upon this before, the years immediately preceding the events were usually pretty harsh. There was famine, natural disasters, social and political upheaval. In the case of Strasburg, there was a little thing called the Black Plague that was right before it. So it can

be viewed as kind of like an extreme reaction of like stress relief, like a reaction to trauma. It's a trauma reaction. Yeah. So we're all going to start dancing soon. Like, you know, you can play the piano or you can start dancing uncontrollably for years at a time. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever works for you. Whatever, whatever you feel report back, let us know. But that, yeah, that's my little, my little mass hysteria. My dance into mass hysteria. And this is what the movie Footloose was based on. Exactly. That's the mic drop at the end in that, friends.

But yeah, so if you start dancing in the streets, people might start joining you and then you could all die together. Yeah. So... Don't take it to a bridge. There's that. Yeah. Oh yeah, don't do that.

Avoid bridges. Yeah, 12th century bridges are not the place to go. No. Yeah. No. Okay, so my question is, did men ever participate in the dancing cliques? They did. Yeah, they did. That's what makes it so funny. They're like, well, women started it. Yeah. Yeah. We just kept playing. Shut up. Yeah. I think, and I don't even think it was always

women who started it. I think it was just like, there was a lot of women. Yeah. Especially in that, you know, in that era, they were like, we'll blame the, we'll blame the ladies. We're going to bring, it's either the devil, ladies, or a combination of both. And then in the nunneries, obviously, it was just, it was all ladies. And the devil. And the devil. And the devil. Yeah, of course.

They were having relations with the devil. Was there any documentation of whether or not they were having fun? Oh, they were having fun. I feel like we need to document it. It feels pretty awesome, to be honest. They were slithering. Especially in the nunnery scenario, I'm like, I think they just got bored. And then they were like, let's see what we can get out of these priests.

Let's climb a tree. Let's break some vows. I'm sure there were some hot priests back then. So they were probably like, let's see if we can break some vows. Stroke the ego a little bit. When that didn't work, they were like, bring on the exorcists, let's see. Have a little fun. Yeah, and then they just gave it up. Well, it's an easy out too. It's like, we can just claim that we were possessed,

but we're having a great time and there will be some recourse, you know? We'll get back to normal eventually. You know what? We'll have our memories. Exactly. There's all that. Or you could just leave the nunnery

by saying you fucked the devil. Yeah. Honestly, it's really a way out actually. The easiest way to leave the nunnery by saying you fucked the devil. Yeah. Honestly, it's really a way out, actually. Easiest way to leave the nunnery, I would say. That's how I get out of most social situations. Exactly. If I don't want to be there. Sorry, I can't make it tonight.

Book signing is not going to work tonight. I slept with the devil. I fucked the devil. I got to go. Bye-bye. Yeah. I love it. All right. Well, this is a weird shift now, but we're gonna play some Would You Rather. Please say it's dancing plague related. Would You Rather.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not even dancing plague related. I just thought- Would You Rather Fuck the Devil? Climb the tree and meow. Yeah. I should have put some of those in there. Yeah.

But you can both answer because I didn't read these two yet. Okay, so would you guys rather be haunted by a ghost that only you can see or hear whispers that no one else can hear? I'm going with the ghost. There's something about whispering that nobody can hear that feels really... Obvious. At least they can be like, oh, there's my friend, the ghost. Hopefully. Is it a friendly ghost? Do we know?

We don't know. It's up in the air. Okay. It's up to you. It's up to you. It's your ghost. I'd rather, in general, I'd rather be able to see it. If it's just whispering, that's another level for me. That'll drive you mad, I feel like. That's how I feel. I would definitely rather ghost because whispering would drive, I am very, like, you know.

You have misophonia. I get very annoyed with certain sounds over and over again, so that would piss me off. It's hard to even eat lunch in here. I would end up just being like, shut up. Whispering's on your list? Ooh, constant whispering, I think, would make me crazy. Yeah, I think it would make a lot of people crazy. Yeah. Misophonia or not. But seeing a ghost every now and then would just be like,

oh hey. Yeah. You never feel alone. Yeah, there you go. You're perfect. You could tell them the big events in your life. Just call my imaginary friend. Yeah. Just be like, hey, you're here. Let me tell you something cool that happened today. I think I agree with you guys. I take the ghost. All right, number two, would you rather live in a house that rearranges itself every night or in one where the doors occasionally lead to other dimensions? Oh, two. Other dimensions? Yeah.

Why? Rearranging my house every night would send me into orbit. I just, nope. I'm a like comfort creature. You are. That would annoy this. And I'm, I'm a control freak. Waking up to having my house rearranged every morning would not be good. With no sign off.

But another dimension, let's go. Yeah, I'm there with you. Yeah. I'm like a, I'm very type A and things are where they need to be. And they're staying there. And they're now, yeah, they're not moving. Don't touch them. And also like, let's see what's in the other dimensions. Yeah.

I'm curious. I'm going house rearranged because I can put it back. I don't want to go to, I don't know what these other dimensions have in them. What if there's nuns meowing and trying to fuck priests? What if I fall in and I can't get back into my house to rearrange my furniture? Yeah. You can't rearrange it every day because it's going to get rearranged that night. Yeah, that's true.

That's a lot of work. I know, but dimensions are scary. It's bad to your floors. It is bad to your floors. That's real. If it's a really good interior designer who's rearranging the house, maybe it's a different story. This is my scenario. It is. Yeah. That's a really nice new configuration of the living room furniture. Yeah, that helped the Feng Shui. Excited to see what you do tomorrow. No, I bet still even that wouldn't work for me. I'm too much of a control freak. I'm sticking with it. I like it.

I believe in you. I back it. All right, number three, would you rather live in a world where every book you open transports you into its story or where every movie you watch traps you inside its universe until the movie ends. It's kind of like the same thing. Yeah, I mean, I think the longer the longer trip in the book is probably less of a vibe. Yeah, it depends on the book.

Yeah, I can handle two hours in another world. That's true. I've worked my way up with psychedelics and this is actually something that I... You've done that, you're like, you know what? Yeah, I know I can handle that, but I'm a slow reader. So, yeah. The month start in the same world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the... I've always want... Like every time I read a book, I'm always like,

like, take me with you. That's how I feel. Like, I just want to jump into the book, but now I'm thinking about it and I'm like, that's true. That would be a long, a long time. Well, and with some of the books that y'all are reading for this podcast, I would imagine those are not worlds that you want to spend a lot of time in. No, I'd like to pick and choose which books.

Definitely choosing the books. If I'm jumping into every book I read, then that's a problem. Same thing with movies, because we watch fucked up movies a lot. I don't want to go in some of them. That's true. It's a hard choice. I think it's the I'm going to go with yours.

The time crunch is that I if I know I have a finite time. All right. That'll make me feel better. I like it. Yeah, I get that. I was thinking story because when you're reading you're kind of like making like your own visuals. Yeah, it'd be kind of cool to see that. I haven't done psychedelic.

So that would be my way of doing it. That's the surprise for this that. I haven't done psychedelics, so that would be my way of doing it. That's the surprise for this episode. I brought some here. Surprise. I'm totally kidding. Don't get the wrong idea. These are occasional journeys.

Don't worry, everybody. If you're like, it's fine, don't worry. Yeah, that's a hard one. I think the only, like, because again, I've always wanted to jump into a book. I love books. Totally. Yeah. But again, it's the time.

I get books. But again, it's the time. I get that. Because I'm also that way with like everybody who listens knows I'm not good in social situations. You are. Going out, but like out of social situation out, I always like to know there's an end. You need an end. I need an end to it. So yeah, I think the movie. Yeah, I get that. Because then you can pick like hour and a half, two hours. Yeah. Like I'm not going to jump into like, yeah,

I'm not jumping into like, you're only watching short films from here. Or I probably, I probably would jump into a Harry Potter movie actually. That sounds awesome. Yeah. I jump in all of them. Let's go. Yeah. So yeah, that just, that cemented it for me. All right. Last one. Would you rather live in a world where night never falls? So it's basically just like eternal daytime. Or an eternal night where you would never witness the sun again? Obviously daytime. Nighttime. I had a feeling you would go that way. Yeah, nighttime for sure. Yeah. I need the sun. Like I'm. Yeah. I need the sun. It's the California in you. Well, yeah. Well, I was born out here. I actually was born in Massachusetts and moved across the

country, but getting to California now it's like, if I, when I tour in the winter time, it's, it's not good for you. Like if it's dark for a long time, I lose, I lose my mind. Yeah. See, and we brought you at the perfect time. It was sunny this morning. A little bit. When it glistens in the snow, so it's pretty neat. I had an amazing walk this morning. I was like, I didn't feel cold. Nice.

I went and got coffee. I was like, okay, this was... Yeah. Because you told me, you prepared me. You're like, there's no sun out here. And I was like, I can handle that for two days. But two days is like my limit. Yeah. And the sun was like, I'll come out for you. Yeah. I'm just for. Welcome to Boston.

Because we have not had sun for weeks at this point. Yeah. It's been dark. Yeah. The sun doesn't like me very much. Sounds like you don't like it either. And I don't like it. We have like a mutual disrespect for each other. Yeah. I'm way too pale for the sun. I don't do well in it. Alina carries around a parasol in the summer. Yeah. Really? Like a golf girl parasol. I do not want to get burned. I don't do well in it. Alina carries around a parasol in the summer. Yeah. Really? Like a golf girl parasol. I do not want to get burned. I don't want, and I don't want wrinkles. Yes. You're good. You know, it does. We have a mutual disrespect. Yeah. Which became a respect. Do you have a parasol collection?

I only have one. You should have a collection. I know I should. I like that idea. I also like a big wide brimmed hat. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like good morbid merch. I know, the parasol feels on brand to me. Mikey, write that down. He's like, I got it. He's like, already done it.

I got it. You also feel like you're in another era when you carry around a parasol. Totally. Which is fun. I have a lot of admiration for a parasol. Like when I see people out doing the parasol thing, I'm like, I couldn't do it. Even when it rains, I don't carry an umbrella.

I'm just like, whatever, just get me wet, I'm fine. But the commitment to good skin, but I love the sun too much. I'm like, I will look like a beat up leather shoe within the next 10 years and I'm fine with it. And like, when I see those guys on the beach and I'm just like, yeah, that's my future. I'm like, maybe you don't think this is good looking,

but I'm like, I want to just look like a shoe. I'm gonna live as a shoe. I'm fine with it. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I don't do well in the sun either. Like I don't like hot. Like as soon as here- I don't either. Like I don't like hot. Like as soon as here- I don't like hot.

I don't like hot. Like I, here it's like as soon as it gets in the sixties, I'm like, this is my perfect weather. Like I can live in the sixties, fall all day. Like I like that kind of sun. I feel like in the fall it's like a, like a muted sun. It has a different vibe to it. I don't know how to explain it. No, I get that. And then as soon as it gets in the summer, it's like this harsh sun that like, I hate the look of it. I just don't like, I don't know what it is.

Everything's too bright for you. Too bright. I'm the opposite. I'll go to the desert in the middle of the summer when it's like 113 degrees and I'll just be in heaven. That's where we depart. With like a little folding mirror. No, no, I never did that.

I toured with a band once. The singer actually had actually had one of the, I will never say who. They're great. And he's great too. But, but I remember walking outside and being like, that dude's doing like the grandma on the porch thing with the, with the reflector. You see like in movies and don't think is real. Yeah. This is like, this is a level of commitment to tanning that I've never even imagined. Yeah. But I get cold so easily. Oh, I get cold very easily.

Yeah, and I'm just like, it's my least favorite feeling is being cold. Really? And my least favorite feeling is being hot. Yeah, I'm like, hot I can handle, but not when I'm sleeping. Oh, I have to be freezing when I'm sleeping. Me and my husband get in fights all the time.

I've been turning off the heat lately. He's like, stop doing that. It's like 60 degrees in this room. I'm like, I am the fan going above us. And John's like, why it's February. Like what I'm like, yeah, it's a science back to that. You sleep better when you're cold. Oh, I do. It's true.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't, my thought process about it is that you can only take off so many layers when you're hot. Yeah, you can add so many more. Like I can't peel my skin off. I could, but I'm not going to. Don't.

You can put on. You could. I mean, I guess I could. You're like, back up, back up. I'm an autopsy technician. I know how to fly back skips. Could you bring yourself to do it? You think to yourself?

Absolutely not. No. I thought you were going to say absolutely. I was like, whoa. Not to myself, to a dead person I can. Well, yeah, you have. Yeah. But I'm like, yeah. We should end there.

Just do a turn. I like it. But you can't take off all the layers to get cool, but you can put on all the layers. I mean, it's a sound logic. It's just when I don't follow it at all. It's okay. We diverge here. It's fine. It's like we got the office. I mean, it's a sound logic. It's just when I don't follow it at all. It's okay, we diverge here. It's fine. It's like we got the office, we have parks,

we have all the things. This is where we diverge. It's okay. We'll just be friends in different continents. I'll just stand in the middle of you. I like both. I came to you in winter, so here we are. You did, that's true.

That's how we know we're friends. Exactly. That's the last one. I pick eternal night because I'm a night person, but I still like the sun, so I'd be like a little bummed, I think. Yeah. But's the last one. I pick eternal night because I'm a night person, but I still like the sun. So I'd be like a little bummed, I think. But yeah. But you know, yeah. I just also love the night. Well, yeah, that's what I feel. Did you watch night country? Did you? I did. I have not. I think I could vibe. That was, yeah, it was great. It was, it was really. But even me, I was like, this is horrible. It's dark every episode. It's dark every episode.

Is it like Alaska or something? It's that part of the country that it goes into night for three months. Oh, I think I would thrive. I think I would do okay. Not me. I would be, it'd be over in one season. Yeah, I would have lost my mind.

There's also a reverse of that that happens where it's three months of that that happens. Oh yeah. Where it's like three months of light. That would kill me. I've been to Alaska when it was in that period. That must be bonkers. I mean, it was hard to sleep for sure, but it was pretty cool to go outside

when it was like two in the morning and it's like, oh. And it's the middle of the day. Just daytime. Yeah, I mean, it would be like dusky, you know? But it was pretty cool. I feel like that would like like dusky, you know, but it was, it was, it was pretty cool. That would, I feel like that would like fuck up your circadian rhythm. It totally does. Yeah.

The other way would too, obviously. So that wouldn't be great. Yeah. You gotta be strong to live out there. Damn. Yeah. Do you live out there? Anyone?

Right in. Lots of emails coming in. I know. Suddenly we're really calling for emails. I know. Well, that was fun. That was fun know, suddenly we're really calling for emails. I know. Well, that was fun. That was fun. I loved that.

Thanks for inviting me, I had a blast. Thanks for coming. Thank you for coming on. We learned a lot. Oh, and check out the Dear Jack Foundation. If you wanna say anything about that before we leave. Yeah, I mean, so Dear Jack is a nonprofit I started years ago on the heels of my survivorship

with leukemia, and so we advocate for adolescent and young adults. So people 15 to 39, which is like for years has been a really forgotten demographic of cancer patient and survivor. And so yeah, we build programs for this group specifically. We do retreats for couples that are entering survivorship. And we also do a wish granting program for young adult

cancer patients. So yeah, please just go to dearjackfoundation.org if you want to learn more about what we're doing or if you happen to have a friend or be going through the cancer journey yourself, we have a lot of support services and ways to kind of link up with you and try and make the journey easier. Hell yeah. I love it. So go check it out. Yeah. Perfect. And you guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that if you haven't already listened to something corporate, Jack's Mannequin and Andrew McMahon in the wilderness, you don't check it out. I'm going to go to bed. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

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