Morbid - Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

In the winter of 1973, director William Friedkin released his iconic horror classic The Exorcist, a film that has shocked and terrified audiences for more than fifty years. Based on William Peter Blatty’s novel of the same name, The Exorcist tells the story of a young girl who becomes possessed by a demonic entity, and the two Catholic priests who attempt to exorcise the demon. Even more terrifying than the content of the film, however, was the fact that The Exorcist was supposedly based on a true story.  William Peter Blatty had always stated The Exorcist was based on a supposedly true story he’d heard while at Georgetown University. According to Blatty, a Maryland boy, known as “Roland Doe,” had become possessed by a demonic entity and, among other things, underwent a negative personality change and began exhibiting impossible abilities including an ability to speak Latin. It was only through the dedication of one Jesuit priest that the boy was eventually freed of his possession and went on to live a normal life.Since the release of both the novel and the film in the 1970s, a great deal more has been learned about “Roland Doe” and the supposedly true story that inspired The Exorcist, raising many questions about the veracity of the original claims. Who was “Roland Doe,” and was he truly possessed by a demon, or just the intense emotions of an adolescent boy?Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesAllen, Thomas. 1993. Possessed: The True Story of the Most Famous Exorcism of Modern Time. New York, NY: Doubleday.Associated Press. 1949. "'Evil spirit' cast out of 14-yearf-old." The Bee (Danville, Virginia), August 10: 8.McGuire, John M. 2005. "Priest was last of three who did 1949 exorcism." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, March 3: A1.News and Observer. 1964. "Tar Heel develops space ceramics." News and Observer (Raleigh, NC), September 3: 27.Nickell, Joe. 2001. "Exorcism!: Driving Out the Nonsense." Skeptical Inquirer 20-24.Opsasnick, Mark. 1999. "The haunted boy of Cottage City, the cold hard facts behind the story that Inspired The Exorcist." Strange Magazine. Young, Maya. 2010. Boy whose case inspired The Exorcist is named by US magazine. December 20. Accessed March 17, 2025. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/20/the-exorcist-boy-named-magazine.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion, no ads, just you, and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network Podcast. When a young woman named Desiree vanishes without a trace, the trail leads to Kat Torres, a charismatic influencer with millions of followers.

But behind the glamorous posts and inspirational quotes, a sinister truth unravels. Binge all episodes of Don't Cross Kat early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Hey, weirdos. My name is Ash. episodes of Don't Cross Cat early and ad free on Wondery Plus. You sounded like you were hosting a show like Delilah. Oh my God. Thank you. Hey, everybody out there. You single ladies. This is Ash. This one goes out to all my queens.

I don't know. All my queens. Now that I just started sounding like Trixie and Katya when they're doing a bit. I like it. May I please have bread? Bread. Um, what's going on? I'm in a silly, goofy, funny, LOL mood.

Me too. Yeah, I'm feeling it. Good. Feeling it. We got some mini Cadbury cream eggs in this bitch. I just ate two of them. I ate the... No, I ate two.

Oh. You're just trying to one-up with Cadbury. I took a third one out. Okay. But I have not yet ingested it. Yeah, maybe you should chill out. They're tiny. They're baby. No, you can do it. This is kind of a hot topic cream Cadbury. How do you guys feel about them? My husband thinks they're the most disgusting things. My husband also thinks that anytime I have them in the house, he gags and can't handle it. One of us will eat one, he will visibly gag. Drew just has a little like, ugh, like with his nose.

See my girls love them. Yeah, who doesn't? My girls are correct. It shouldn't be that hot of a topic. No, it should not, but it is. If you don't like them, you're just wrong. She said it, I didn't. I said it.

Me, I'm here to tell you that your opinion matters, but Ash, she's telling me to fuck off. Oh, wow, you're going to validate them in these streets? No, that's wrong. It's wrong if you don't like them. There's another option. Is it caramel? Yeah, the caramel.

So I like caramel, but I don't like those ones. I'm okay with them, but it's not my. Yeah, it's not my preference. I don't really fucks with them, if you will. But I was gonna tell you guys something. I thought of it this morning. I was like getting my coffee ready and I was like, I'll say that on the show later. I'll say that on the show.

I'll say that on the pod. What was it? And then we had such a whirlwind of a morning. And now I just have boats and hoes stuck in my head. So it's true. Because we got a couple of strep strep throat cases in my house. Because kids get sick. Calm down.

I always get one person that's like, why are you can't say? Yep. Because they said no parent. And also it's not just kid. It is also John who has strep throat. Kid plus John. So that child and John are kind of sticking together. And so they started calling themselves strep brothers.

But then it made boats and hoes get stuck in my head. So that's a whole thing. Yeah. It did. So that's a whole thing. Yeah. But yeah. It's good that we're in a silly mood today because we're talking about something like moderately silly. Yeah. I mean, anytime we can take it in a place of exorcism or paranormal, it's a different

vibe. Yeah. I would say. It is a different vibe. We can come in at a different angle. Yeah. A silly, goofy angle. Silly silly goofy. It's kind of a wonky angle. Yes. The best way it's like curved. Yeah, I like that. All right. Well,

let's talk about the exorcism. Hello. Wow. I don't know what happened. I need an exorcism. All right, we're going to talk about the exorcism of one Roland Doee So as long as the public has known about the exorcist's supposedly true origins, the character at the center of the story has always been known as Roland Doe. Or sometimes Robbie Mannheim, I think? Mannheim. Mannheim. Both are obviously pseudonyms to protect his actual identity. But in December 2021, The Skeptical Inquirer, a magazine devoted to scientific skepticism,

revealed the identity of Roland Doe. Hmm. Can you believe that? It's crazy. Yeah. Well, they reason that he had passed away a year earlier, so there was like not really any need for anonymity anymore. I suppose.

I guess. The identity of Roland Doe has been uncovered by an independent journalist two decades earlier it had been, but the reporter actually opted not to publish the name for legal reasons. Probably smart. So people knew who he was for a little bit, but it was it was kept on the DL. Wow, that's shocking. I know it was a different time. I was going to say that would never happen now.

Exactly, because in the year of our Lord 2021, it got it got leaked. Yeah. So in 1999, though, taking it back a little bit, a journalist named Mark Opsasnik, I believe, was writing an article on the possession for Strange Magazine, which I prefer when he interviewed Father Albert Hughes, one of the priests involved in the case. So that must have been gnarly. Oh, my God. Can you imagine that'd be crazy? Let's sit with that for. Yeah my God, can you imagine? That'd be crazy. Let's sit with that for a second. Yeah, like let's paint a picture.

You get to sit down with Father Albert Hughes, who was involved in the original case that inspired the exorcism. That's a fucking top tip. The exorcist, I mean. What did you say? I said the exorcism. Who inspired the exorcism.

The exorcism that was in the exorcism. Not a exorcism. The exorcism that was in the exorcism. Not a exorcism, the exorcism. That's a big moment. Just a weird moment. I would assume top 10 in your life. Well according to Hughes, the boy who was exorcised was from Cottage City, Maryland. And he quote, went on to graduate from Gonzaga High and turned out fine. Anytime I say Gonzaga High, I just want to say Gorgonzola.

And you do that for a reason. Yeah. You don't even know what the reason is. Tell me what it is. John loves March Madness and he usually has me do a fake bracket with him and I don't know anything about college basketball. I like regular, like higher basketball, whatever, NBA. But I'm like, what is that called?

Big boy basketball. Big boy basketball, but I don't know anything about college basketball. So I just pick based on what I think is a cool name. And Gonzaga reminded me of Gorgonzola. And so now I only call Gonzaga Gorgonzola. Wow. You probably, you might've heard it in subconsciously. It's possible. And we're also just family. It's true. That proved it. And he'll even do it now. He's like, oh, Gorgonzola moved on to the next round. Wow. Yeah.

Look at us so connected. Gonzaga. Gonzorgola. Well, with those facts and a few other facts obtained from his research, Obsaznik was able to determine the years that the boy was in high school. And after tracking down a copy of the 1954 Gorgonzola Gonzaga High School yearbook, he narrowed the pool of potential boys to a very small number. And after cross-checking list with the known attendees of St. James Church, where Albert Hughes was a priest, he was left with just one name.

Ronald Hunkler. Ronald Hunkler? Ronald Hunkler. That's a cool name. It is. I like it. Hunkler. Hunkler. Ronald Hunkler? Ronald Hunkler. That's a cool name. It is. I like it. Hunkler. Hunkler.

Yeah. The story of the Roland Doe and the Exorcist have been told and retold like a million, a gajillion times since the supposed possession occurred that it's become very, very difficult, if not almost impossible to tell all the facts from fiction. Those are my favorite kind of paranormal stories. They're the best. I don't want clear facts clear facts and frankly, it's most paranormal stories. But then the popularity of the movie that came out made the already sensational story even more sensational with obviously aspects played up to promote the supernatural details of the story. So facts about Ronald and

his life before and after the exorcism are sparse and a little difficult to verify. But here's what we do know. Ronald Edwin Hunkler was born June 1st, 1935. Hey, that is my wedding anniversary. And the day that one Marilyn Monroe passed away. It's true. I didn't mean to do that. RIP Sweet Queen. Yes. It was in Cottage City, Maryland that he was born to Edwin and Odell Hunkler. Isn't Odell a cool name? It is a cool name. I also love the name Edwin. I do too. I think that's a really cute name. That was Ronald's middle name and his father's name. Love it.

So his father Edwin worked for the federal government and Odell, his mother, was a homemaker. Edwin was very fortunate in that he had a stable job during the peak of the Great Depression, but the pay was relatively low and the family definitely struggled financially a lot of the time. And this struggle became even greater a few years after Ronald's birth when Odell's mother moved into their house, which obviously put in, you know, kind of an additional strain. More mouths to feed, more resources being used. For sure. Sitting about one mile outside the northeast border of Washington, DC, Cottage City was

and still is a pretty suburban area populated mostly by government employees like Edwin Hunkler was. According to Alvin Cagey, one of Ronald's childhood friends, Ronald quote, had friends, but he was in a sense a little bit of a loner. He was somewhat sedentary, somewhat quiet as his parents were. In his younger years, Ronald did have a best friend. For the purposes of this story, we're gonna call him John.

Love that name. We don't really, you do? I do. That's crazy. We don't really know like if his name was John or not. So we're just gonna call him that. John. John. According to John's brother, JC,

these two paired up and were virtually inseparable. They were loners who found each other and they caused a lot of mischief. There was a close relationship there, a very close relationship. Good for them. Yeah. Loners causing mischief. Let's go. What's better? Kind of like what we do. Yeah. But we're not really loners. No.

Sort of. I don't know. According to J.C. when the stories about a possessed boy began making their way around town, he immediately thought of Roland and John, uh, Ronald and John. That sucks that they used essentially the same name. No, it does. And let me tell you, it fucked me up the entire time. I was reading about this and writing about it. So if I say the wrong name, I'm gonna do my best to say Ronald the entire time

because that is his name. But if I fuck up, just like laugh with me, okay? Yeah, because no matter what, that's the whatever name is used is a name that he was referred to as. Yeah, Ronald or Roland. I'm doing my best to say Ronald. But like imagine trying to save someone's identity and use essentially the same name.

You literally just switch three letters. Yeah. Like that's fake. Come on. And if you have dyslexia, the fuck. Yeah, it's true. That's not cool. No.

But JC said, you had these two mischief makers that had a strong tendency to take advantage of people who were weaker than themselves. They were a pair of connivers and they had their act down. They were trying to outdo each other. So he's like, possessed boy. It's got something to do with the two of them. Yeah. Now, if J.C. remembered Ronald as a mischievous troublemaker, John, who was actually his friend, himself described Ronald in a lot more of extreme terms. According to John, Ronald's home life was anything but typical for a boy in the 1940s.

He said Ronald was, quote, smothered by his obsessively religious mother and grandmother, who had deep interests in spiritualism and Ouija boards, shunned by his classmates at school, prone to traumas and even violent outbursts, and exhibited cruel and at times even sadistic behavior toward other children and even violent outbursts, and exhibited cruel and at times even sadistic behavior toward other children and even animals. Oh. Yeah, so there's a lot going on with this pathology. And when it came to his father's influence on Ronald,

both J.C. and John remembered Edwin Hunkler as a man who was physically present in the home, but emotionally absent anywhere else at the time, which was kind of common. I was going to say of the time, but emotionally absent anywhere else at the time, which was kind of common. I was going to say of the time. That's not shocking. Yeah. But I think when you have all those other things at play, it's going to add to it. It was never good. No, nobody came out of that in a great way. Yeah. J.C. said of the supposed paranormal activity, I think he could see what was going on, which is why he's never mentioned talking

about Edwin. Interesting. Yeah. Now, since the story broke in the papers, and especially since the release of the book, and then the movie, John really tried to distance himself from Ronald and avoid any association with the legend, which I can understand. Yeah. In an interview in 1999, he said, I've never said his name in front of anyone, not even my wife. Whoa. Yeah. Damn.

In fact, while nearly everyone remembered John and Ronald as inseparable best friends, said, I've never said his name in front of anyone, not even my wife. Whoa. Yeah. Damn. In fact, while nearly everyone remembered John and Ronald as inseparable best friends, even his own brother, John himself wouldn't have actually described it in such intimate terms. He said, we were playmates and classmates. People ask what he was like back then. And I can tell you that he was never what you would call a normal child. He was an only child and kind of spoiled and he was a mean bastard. He was a mean bastard. I think it sounds like John just kind of put up with him for a while.

Yeah. Even he was like, fuck off. I feel like everyone is at least had like some interaction with a person like that as they were growing up where you were just like, you're kind of a dumb bitch. Why am I hanging out with you? It's like a friend. You just like do. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's just one of those.

It's like, then you move to like a new school. Like you move up a grade and you kind of like branch out a little more and you're like, why the fuck was I friends with that asshole? Yeah, and you kind of float apart. Yeah. For sure. So don't feel bad if you were friends with that asshole. Oh yeah. I can think of exactly who I used to hang out with.

That was kind of, yeah. Then I look back and I'm like, why did I put myself through that? Yeah, she was an asshole. Well, as an illustration of Ronald's typical behavior, John remembered a story about a stray dog in the neighborhood. Oh, no. It's okay.

Okay. That seemed to take a liking to Ronald and vice versa. They actually liked each other. But apparently he said this dog was mean and nobody ever knew who owned it. It just came out of nowhere. No dog is mean. He was a little mean. He's not mean. He ever knew who owned it. It just came out of nowhere. No dog is mean. He was a little mean. He's not mean.

He doesn't mean to be. He was treated badly, I bet. Yeah, probably. No dog comes out mean. You're right, and they all go to heaven. Yeah. Well, and this is John's words. He said, well, Ronald basically adopted that dog.

That dog really was his best friend, not me. One time he called me up and told me to come over and I never really trusted him because he was sneaky and a real mean little bastard. I was going over there and he was looking out from the basement window. And when I got to his house, I heard the back porch door slam. And I knew right away what he'd done. He'd done this sort of thing many times before to different kids.

I started running like hell because he'd sick that dog on me. When I got home, he called me up and he was laughing like hell. That's the kind of person he was. I mean, that's pretty funny. It's a little silly, but also that's fucked up. A dog could have ate his face off. That's like super 1940s behavior, though, I feel. I think I've seen that in like several movies.

Like, I think I've seen that. I feel like that's very like, I'm just bored. Yeah. I'm gonna stick my mean dog on. 100%, but it's supposed to be his best friend. That's the shit you do to your best friend though. Yeah. You know? John didn't like it.

I don't know. I feel like we're in the Northeast. Maybe we just... I know that's actually very true. I'm like, that's just roasting somebody you love. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

No, that's honestly so true. I remember one time I had a play date with somebody who I thought was like my best friend and it was like the middle of winter and we were playing outside and they just locked me outside. Yeah, that's just, you know, that's just somebody you love. We were still besties after that. Of course you were. Yeah.

Because that's love. That's what that is. New England is wild. We're different. We are. But John, John didn't like that. So people who knew Ronald as a child paint a picture of a pretty lonely boy overall, it sounds like.

Also, you know, with pretty bad social skills since he's sickened his dog on people. Yeah, that is pretty rough. And, you know, obviously this is a great example of a tendency to behave in cruel, if not outright sadistic ways. Which is scary. Because while we can laugh a little bit, that is a fucked up thing to do. It is a fucked up thing to do. Especially knowing that the dog is mean. Well, that's the thing. I don't... all I'm hearing is that the dog was mean.

It's like, I don't know what that means. Yeah. Well, it's not only mean to like the friend, it's mean to the dog. You shouldn't put a dog in that position. That's the thing. Because, I mean, again, things were different in the 1940s. Now you do that. That dog so much as touches that person, you're going to have to put that dog down and that's your fault.

Yeah, exactly. And that's fucked up because that dog is doing doing what they think is gonna make you happy. Exactly. And that's all dogs wanna do. Exactly. But the cruel and sadistic stuff is like a different, cause again, we're talking about like roast your friends, roast the people you love.

Yeah. Like these two silly things. Yeah. Cruel and sadistic is like a totally different thing. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah. And again, people said that he was like mean to other animals and stuff like that. As soon as you said that I got a red flag. That's

more like what we're talking about. Unfortunately, like I said, like there's limited information so we don't have specific examples like what those cruel and sadistic things are. But we know that they happened or people said they did at least. But there was at least one person in Ronald's life who he really truly bonded with and somebody who he was willing to let his guard down around. And it was his father's sister, Matilda, who was his aunt Tilly. Oh, that's really cute. I know they had a really cute relationship, I think. In the stories, the documentaries and the movies that have been made since the original event, there's always a great deal made about aunt Tilly and especially her role as the person who introduced Ronald to the occult. But damn Aunt Tilly.

She might have, but again, there's a lot more fiction surrounding aspects of the story than facts so we don't know. But what is true is that Aunt Tilly lived in St. Louis and she visited her brother and his family a lot. And during her visit, she always made time for Ronald. They really like to hang out together. That's some good aunt shit. It is. Some people get a wild haircut or book a spontaneous trip when life throws them a curveball. But

Molly? Well, she dove headfirst into a world of no-strings-attached sex, secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs, and unforgettable adventures. And together, we tell every juicy detail in Dying for Sex, Wondry's award-winning podcast that's now streaming on a TV near you, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. And to top it off, we're dropping brand new bonus episodes where I sit down with the cast to spill all the spicy secrets. Desire, friendship, self-discovery, and the ultimate bucket list of pleasure. This is a story that had everyone talking. Listen to the original Dying for Sex and brand new episodes on the Wondry app or wherever

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Author Thomas Allen wrote, aunt Tilly seems to have treated Ronald more like a special friend than as a nephew. That reads a little creepy. I just want to be clear. It's not creepy. It's not creepy. It was just a little creepy. I just want to be clear. She like it's not creepy. It's not creepy Like it was just a cute relationship. It's like she she paid She she might have seen too that he was a little off off Yeah, like he was a little like socially strange and like a little bit of a loner

And so she was like I'm gonna just you know, yeah Make sure that I pay attention to him And I think she even saw that her brother probably wasn't super present Yeah her nephew's life and like he was struggling at school. The adults around him didn't pay a lot of attention to him other than his mom like smothering him, which is not the attention that you want. So she was like, let me just like be a normal person in your life.

But I feel like you hear special friend. Oh, 100% Yeah. I mean, like we're in a place now in the world where a special friend with an adult is no go. So I just wanted to be, you know. Thank you for clearing up on Tilly's name. Yeah, I had to. That's my girl.

Yeah. So given his inability to form bonds with children his own age and the fact that he, you know, treated his peers pretty shitily. Most of Ronald's time was spent with the adults in his life. And like I was just saying, most of them typically just ignored him or treated him like a nuisance. So in that case, it makes sense why he was drawn so much to somebody like his aunt Tilly. She was said to be outgoing, outspoken and pretty eccentric in an era where most people were conservative and respectable and, you know, buttoned up.

So she probably sees a little bit of something in him, you know what I mean? She's a little different. She's like, I think you just need to be like steered in the right direction. Yeah, we got to celebrate our differences. So like Ronald's mother and grandmother, Tilly was also interested in spiritualism and she introduced Ronald to the Ouija board, which they used together to try to contact the spirit world. I'm kind of obsessed with all of this. I'm also pretty obsessed.

Like I do also love that the mom and grandmother are super into spiritualism in the Ouija board. I'm like, wow. It's funny too, because the mom was like super religious, but she also had an interest in that side of things. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. Nobody really knows how much Ronald believed in his aunt's ability to talk to the dead through the Ouija board, or if he really bought into any of the beliefs.

But according to Thomas Allen, his interest in the board was at least strong enough for him to engage with it even when Tilly wasn't visiting. So he was using that Ouija board. And it wasn't just the spirit board that Tilly believed in. She was also a firm believer in spirit wrapping, which is the belief that spirits can communicate with the living by like knocking on walls, floors, any hard surface. Some people think it's debunked. I don't. I feel like it's a hard one to debunk. Like fully. Yeah, I agree. You know, we've heard we've heard weird tapping in this room. We have

and we've never found the source. Like you can debunk certain instances of it. Yes, for sure. But not overall. A blanket debunkment doesn't feel right here. Thank you. You're welcome. So considering everything that was going on, it would definitely be fair to say

that Ronald was struggling emotionally before his possession, and that he didn't have a lot of relationships where he felt supported. Yeah. And throughout a lot of the 20th century, expectations of gender were rigid when it came to boys and young men,

and especially boys and young men asking for help when it comes to like emotional problems, that would have been super unusual. And that's why they just acted out. Exactly. That's exactly my point here. So let's kind of get into it now. As far as anybody can tell, Ronald Hunkler's paranormal experience began in early January 1949, about five months into his eighth grade year, his behavior was starting to become a problem at school, and his bullying behavior wasn't giving him any friends. And things finally came to a head that winter, when one day, just in the middle of class, a supposedly paranormal experience made him the center

of everybody's attention. His friend John remembered he was sitting in a chair, and it was one of those deals with one arm attached and it looked like he was shaking the desk. The desk was shaking and vibrating extremely fast. And I remember the teacher yelling at him to stop it. And I remember he kind of yelled, I'm not doing it. And they took him out of class. And that was the last I ever saw of him at school. Holy shit. Yeah. Now, in later tellings of the story, particularly the version told in Thomas Allen's book possession, the event in the classroom was a genuine poltergeist phenomenon where the desk was moving free of human hands like he wasn't doing it at all. But John, who was in

that class said, nah, the desk certainly did not move around the room like that book said. It was just shaking. All right. I mean, either way. Yeah, two versions of that story. Regardless of what was causing the commotion, the disruption with the desk was the last straw for the teachers and the administrators at the high school. And Ronald was asked to not return. So there was definitely stuff leading up to this.

There had to be a lot of shit leading up to that. I think probably the bullying was like a bigger thing. And then like, he definitely sounds like he was disruptive a lot. Yeah, if you're being a bully to everyone and treating everyone like shit, sorry, I just almost yawned while I was saying that. Not because this is boring, just because sleep.

It's tired. I said it's tired. It's tired. It's tired over there. it's tired. But I said it's tired. It's tired. It's tired over there. This is tired. But yeah, like if you're bullying people, being disruptive, you're being like sadistic to people. Like the fact that they use the word sadistic quite often

means he's doing some shit. And also it was a lot easier to throw people out of school. It's true. And it's like if they're telling him to stop and he's like, I'm not doing it. And he just keeps doing it. What do you get on my cloths? It's like, of course.

But what sucks is that if it like was legitimate, he just got kicked out because of a ghost. Yeah, like that's kind of bullshit. You know, yeah. Thanks a lot. Spirit. Thanks a lot. Spirit. Well, interestingly, when the incident was reported to the priests months later, it was reported that Ronald quote did not continue his attendance out of embarrassment. So there's two stories.

Now the next major event came a few days later on January 15th, Ronald and his grandmother were at home in his grandmother's room and they started hearing a dripping noise followed by scratching sounds coming from within the walls in the ceiling. I'd be like, fuck, we have mice. Until without warning, a framed picture of Jesus Christ began shaking. Quote. I have to say. A framed picture of Jesus Christ.

That's a big deal. Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Jesua Christ. It started shaking, quote, as if the wall bag of it had been bumped. I'm just picturing. I can't help it.

Go, maybe this is why I can't sleep. Tell me. I haven't had a lot of sleep. I'm picturing a diamond in the wall. And I'm picturing him just booty bumping the wall. Like he knows Jesus Christ is in the wall. Say it. And I'm picturing him just booty bumping the wall. Like he knows Jesus Christ is in the photo. Yeah, Jesus Christ is in that photo. Like he knows.

Yeah, like he's just like dancing to his own beat behind the wall and he's just booty bumping the wall every now and then. I like the image that conjures. A big booty demon. Big booty demon, let away he shake it. A bodacious demon in the wall. It's gonna be like a Mario's nickname

for Brin on TikTok. Yes, it's so true. Well, that happened. Big booty demon knocking pictures of, big booty demon or mice knocking pictures of, or big booty mice. Of Jesus Christ off the wall. I don't know why when you say it, it's like so intense. Because I did it on purpose. Because it's so important.

It is. Importante. In the week or so following the scratching and the dripping sounds, the inexplicable noises became a nightly event in the Hunkler house, usually from like 7 p.m. to midnight. Yeah, that's when he's getting his rave on. First you pregame, then you rage. Then he's really into it. Yeah, he starts like a little bit slowly. Yeah.

He takes a couple shots at the pregame. But once he gets that feeling, it's over. It's over. The night's going crazy. His song comes on and that's it. He says, let's go, girls. He says, let's go, Hunkler fam. Now, it's unclear what type of activity was experienced during these events for the humans.

But most accounts mentioned Ronald's reports of hearing squeaking shoes on his bed for six nights in a row. Whoa. So now the demon has new sneakers that he's breaking in on Ronald's bed. Some new Nike high tops. Now it's worth noting that none of the accounts mention which of the family members heard these sounds. But after about a week of Ronald's complaints, the sounds did finally become audible to the other members of the family aside from just Ronald. But the noise was quote, only heard at night when the boy went to bed. Yeah, because that's when you go. That's when you go crazy. Yeah. That's your time. I mean, if a demon is going to start partying, it's definitely going to be when the youngest

kid goes to bed. Of course. Duh. Yeah. That's how demon tree works. Absolutely. It does. Read the handbook.

Read a book. Exactly. Thank you. By the end of the week, the Ronald's mother and grandmother had accepted Ronald's claims as fact, and they too started having paranormal experiences. Good for them. Good for them. And what? Good for them. That was a crazy reaction. Let's go girls.

He said, hell yeah, Nana. In one instance, both women were laying down on Ronald's bed and they quote, heard something coming toward them, similar to the rhythm of marching feet in the beat of drums. This is all adding up. And that seemed to travel the rhythm of marching feet in the beat of drums. This is all adding up. And that seemed to travel the length of the mattress and back again. Yes. Conga line.

All they can think of is the like the new Gaga song, Abracadabra. It's like, I love it. He's just like, oh my God, the demon. I love it. Vogueing and throwing pictures of Jesus Christ. Now the next significant event came about a week later on January 26th, when aunt Tilly died. No, until he died from complications of multiple sclerosis at age 54. Oh, she's young. I know. Oh, and MS. That's tough. Yeah, that's awful. Plant Tilly. I know. Now, given the special relationship that Ronald had with his aunt, Tilly's death had to

have been a devastating event for not him, of course, and the entire family. Oh, hell yeah. Now, believing that Tilly's death might have had something to do with the events happening in the house, Ronald's mother held a seance with the Ouija board a few nights later in an attempt to contact Tilly's spirit. I got that. That sounds awesome. I'm obsessed. That's awesome. Yeah. She's just like, let's seance about it. I think it's rad. What a cool mom. And I think the grandma probably went to because she was into spiritualistic shit. I would have loved to grow up in this house. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Now, according to her testimony provided to Father Raymond Bishop, Odell called out to the spirit and asked if you are Aunt Tilly knock three times. Supposedly Ronald's grandmother said she

could feel waves of air rushing over her face and head. And then all three participants heard a faint knock three times. And Odell called out, if you are Tilly, tell me positively by knocking four times. At which point she heard four distinct knocks, followed by a quote, claw scratching on Ronald's mattress. You can keep that all in because he has 47 names. That's scary. I don't like the claw. Well, the other thing is you could ask a spirit who they are and you could say, are you Aunt Tilly? And they could say, yeah, bitch. Yeah, of course I am.

Yeah, it me. That's the thing. Like you think a demon is gonna be like, oh shit. No, caught me. That's not my name. It's me, Beazlebub. I can only answer to my name. Right.

Because I didn't know they lied. Like you're just giving him a cloak. I don't think that he's like totally opposed to lying. No, definitely not. Yeah. So I don't think it's Aunt Tilly. I just wanted to make that clear. But after the sands, the story starts to get a little hazy and a little inconsistent. According to Marco psaasnik, Odell began quote, alternating her beliefs that the problems with her son either were the work of the devil or their departed relative. She like couldn't make her mind up. Both of those sound

like bad choices. A stretch. So basically she thought that either the house was being haunted by the spirit of Aunt Tilly or that some sort of demonic entity had attached itself to Ronald and he was now harassing the family. But Odell couldn't quite settle on which of the two she believed. The devil. I mean, there's a lot going on.

So it's either the devil or Aunt Tilly. Or Aunt Tilly. And now we need Jesus Christ. You need Jesus Christ to intervene. You need your Lord. Yeah. And your Savior. Now, whatever the case, this is the point where according to skeptic Joe Nichol, quote,

the case, which began as a seeming poltergeist outbreak, soon advanced to one of alleged spirit communication to one of supposed diabolic possession. Oh. Which I love. I am obsessed with the word diabolical. Yeah. I describe many things as diabolic possession. Oh, which I love. I am obsessed with the word diabolical. Yeah. I describe many things as diabolical. Same. And now my kids have started to call things diabolical. I haven't heard that yet. And I can't wait for the moment that I do. We were playing Mario Kart last night and one of them said that Daisy is diabolical. Daisy is diabolical. I love

when they use things perfect. That was like agreed. Is she like the village girl? No, she's the redhead princess. Oh, fuck Daisy. But they saw her a statue of her dancing with Mario and they were very angry for Princess Peach. Oh, I don't like Princess Peach either. Yeah, I don't mind her.

She makes me really mad at Mario Party. I just wanted to say that. I'm trying to put that out. The village girl is diabolical. The villagers are wild. I don't like them. No. Anyway, back to the story. In the early days of the phenomenon, the Hunklers reported experiences that would become common

and later claims of poltergeist activity, including an instance where a parent in orange quote flew across the room where Ronald was standing. Eat your fruit. Eat your fruit. He said, have a smoothie. Food and beverages were knocked from tables and counters. The other objects seemed to fly off the shelves and even a Bible was hurled from a shelf and fell right at Ronald's feet. Read the Bible, read it and weep. Not willing to rule out the possibility that her son was possessed, of course, Odell reached out to Reverend Luther Schultz, the minister and the family at the family's Lutheran Church. She detailed what

had been happening in the home and explained that she was very worried that Ronald was quote the victim of an evil ghost and wondered if it could be on Tilly. An evil ghost. Like that's not fair. Just because you don't like your sister in law doesn't make her evil. No. And I don't know. Evil ghosts don't feel like a thing. Yeah. No, it's either a demon or a ghost. Yeah. Or just a regular ghost. It's a ghost. Yeah. Agreed. Well, in order to help guide the family, Reverend Schultz determined he needed to see the phenomenon for himself. And so he arranged for Ronald to spend the night at his home. Don't love that. Ronald arrived at the Parsonage a little after 9.30 PM, excuse me, a little before

9.30 PM on the evening of February 17th. And he stayed until a little after 9 a.m. the next morning. According to the reverend, that evening he heard scratching noises at various points throughout the night and witnessed, quote, bed vibrations, a chair in which Roland Ronald, Roland Ronald sat tipping over and the movement, the movement of a pallet of blank. It's the Roland Ronald that's working it up. And the movement of a pallet of blankets upon which Roland sat. A pallet of blankets. Is she like princess and the pea?

Yes. Just put him on a bunch of blankets. Yes, obviously. Okay, reverence. He was sitting there and it moved. Demonic. It's the devil. All right, he's just staying at your house while that all happens. Yeah, I don't like that. Well, a little over a week after Ronald spent the night at the reverence home, the phenomenon in the Hunkler house escalated and became more physical.

Beginning on the night of February 26th and occurring four nights in a row, he complained to his parents that something had attacked him in the night and showed them scratch marks all over his body that seemed to have been made by claws. Like the noises and the other various phenomena, Father Bishop's diary indicates that the only other person to have seen the marks on Ronald's body at the time were his mother. Okay. But like they're there. Yeah. So for more than a month, the Hunkler family had been experiencing this crazy shit in their home. You know, it wasn't exactly dangerous, but it was disruptive, especially for 13

year old Ronald at the time, who, you know, was the focus of the activity. That's very, um, unfortunate. Puberty-esque. So it's very puberty-esque, but there are studies that happens. I know, we've seen it. It's interesting. In different cases. Remember that one that we did a couple months ago?

Yes, that's the one that made me think of. And that one was like fucking crazy. Yeah, I believe that one. Puberty is wild. Puberty is. For so many reasons. Yes. Everyone has that friend who seems kind of perfect. For Patty, that friend was Desiree.

Until one day... I texted her and she was not getting the text. So I went to Instagram, she has no Instagram anymore. And Facebook, no Facebook anymore. Desiree was gone. And there was one person who knew the answer. I am a spiritual person, a magical person, a witch. A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Cat Torres,

but who was hiding a secret. From Wandery, based on my smash hit podcast from Brazil, an influencer called Cat Taurus, but who was hiding a secret. From Wondery, based on my smash hit podcast from Brazil, comes a new series, Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb. I'm calling to check on the two missing Brazilian girls. Maybe get some undercover crew there. The family are freaking out. They are lost.

I'm Chico Felitti. You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health

insurance corporation in the world and the suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas manjoni became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history was targeted premeditated and meant to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber host of Luigi produced by law and crime and twist this is more than a true crime investigation we explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

He's awoken the people to a true issue. I mean maybe this would be rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system. Listen to law and crimes's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple podcasts. But it is interesting that Poltergeist activity can kind of, you know, kick it up a notch. Link up to that. Well, and you know, it's causing a lot of issues for him. He got kicked out of school.

It removed a lot of, I mean, he didn't have like a lot of social support, but what social support he did have at school was now gone outside of the home. But fortunately, Odell Hunkler did get the assistance that she was hoping for from the church. But that assistance added even more people to the story, whose version of events would further complicate an already convoluted story Love that making it even more difficult to tell fact from fiction. Let's go To some people is like womp womp to me. That's like awesome. No add more shit to this. Give me more. Give me more crazy shit

So the events that comprise the first month of Ronald supernatural experience were based a lot on Odell and Ronald's reports to Father Bishop, with some additional statements from one or two other witnesses. They were pretty benign to a point until the introduction of those claw marks on Ronald's body. That obviously indicated that the problem was getting a lot worse. And for Odell, who had previously been unsure about the origin of her son's problem, it was now very clear that he was the victim of an

evil entity, an evil demon, an evil onion taken aback. Now in late February, Odell consulted with Father Albert Hughes, the priest at St. James Catholic Church in nearby Mount Rainer, a different priest now. So Father Albert Hughes explained that he knew very little about demonic possession and even less about exorcism. But he suggested that the family used blessed candles, holy water, and prayer to bless the home. That sounds nice. It does.

I don't know why I went southern, but I just wanted to. You have to with this kind of stuff. You just do. In the days that followed, Odell did as Hughes suggested. She sprinkled holy water around the house. She prayed constantly, but very little seemed to change. At one point, she actually even tried to baptize Ronald, placing candles around his bed and saying prayers. And according to the diary account, the flames on the candles around the bed quote, all began moving back and forth in unison. And Ronald,

he responded with rage. Oh, that's upsetting. Because when you first said that, all I can think of is the flames just being like all just dancing together and abracadabra still playing. It's always abracadabra. But then Roland is, Roland Ronald is like, he's pissed. That's upsetting. That actually hurt. I'm going to take a sip. My kids actually love the new Lady Gaga song. As they should. Yeah, all of them love it. I love that for them. Now, Father Bishop's diary indicates that this behavior resulted in Ronald actually being admitted for a three-day stay at University Hospital, though there aren't really additional details about that

hospitalization or the outcome. They said you got ghosts in your blood. But like, that's him, like, whatever he did, like in response to being baptized landed him a three day hospital stint. Sounds intense. Super duper. Sounds like it was more than just being like rawr. Yes. Yeah.

But that's all I thought that I could do. I don't want to reenact anything and end up in the hospital myself. And we've got, you know, we've got flames in here. Yeah. And I have lighting shit up. I have a job to do. Yeah. So after Ronald's discharge from the hospital, the family took a trip to visit relatives in Missouri, where according to Bishop, other members of the family also witnessed the markings on

Ronald's skin. It's here that Father Raymond Bishop becomes involved for the first time really. He was a member of the clergy at St. Louis University, St. Louis, St. Louis, and the director of the school's Department of Education. And later years, most of the clergy at St. Louis University, St. Louis, St. Louis, and the director of the school's Department of Education. In later years, most of the information that informed both the legends about Ronald's story and actually the story of the exorcist would come from this man's diary. I love that. It's awesome. Something about that is so spooky and cool. It's like heavy metal. Yeah, it really is. Like I did a rock on. She did. She was like heavy metal, heavy metal to all of you, not regular metal. No, it really is. Like I did a rock on. She did. She was like heavy metal. Heavy metal. To all of you.

Not regular metal. No, heavy. That's why I... The heavy variety. That's why I like really thrust my hand when I did it. Because if it was just metal, I'd be like, metal. Like just a little... But it's heavy metal.

So you have to thrust your hand. Thank you. Now anyways, according to Thomas Allen, one of Roland's, Ronald's, extended family members, referred to as Elizabeth, was a student at St. Louis University. And after becoming concerned about Ronald's condition, she approached Raymond Bishop for advice. Like Albert Hughes, the other father, and virtually all clergy at the time, Bishop knew very little about possession or the right of exorcism himself, but he still agreed to meet with the family to see what he could do to help. He lives to serve. Yeah. I mean, go read up on exorcisms.

That's pretty much what he did. That's what you can do. He acknowledged that before he gave the family his thoughts on the situation, he needed time to quote, think about what possession was and how it could be proved. I love that. He's kind of like approaching it scientifically. He is because he's like, I need to think on this. I gotta let me give me some time to think. Let me just quickly come up with a definition of possession first and then I

will discover how to fix it. I'll work on it. I like that. So Father Bishop met with the Hunckler family for the first time on March 9th, where he claimed to have witnessed the scratching on Ronald's body and actually saw the boy's mattress move. At the time, he kept his suspicions of any danger to himself. But later he would admit that he quote, had sense from the beginning that Robbie was threatened with possession. He's like, I wasn't going to tell these people. But I thought she was going to go down. He said I had an inkling. I wasn't going to give them a heads up. But what am I to do? Yeah. So at the time he told the hunklers that he

needed to consult with some other Jesuit priests and that he would get back to them ASAP. Yeah. Hopefully, Robbie doesn't get like super duper possessed in the meantime. Yeah, you just kind of because right now it's just like a little threat of it. Like it's like on the precipice of possession. Yeah. It wasn't quite there. Possession is in the air. Yes. You know, yes. I feel like that might be like a good name for a movie. Possession in the air. Yeah, I like it.

I like that. Maybe a band name will workshop. We'reession in the Air. Yeah, I like it. I like that. Maybe a band name will workshop it. We're Possession in the Air! I kind of like that. Yeah. Hello, Wisconsin. So it's not completely clear who Bishop spoke with and what he told them at all. Prese.

Unclear things. But as Mark Sassnick points out, this vagueness and ambiguity would become one of the hallmarks of Father Bishop's reporting, which is a little problematic when you consider the fact that the bulk of the information about the exorcism did come from his reports. Yeah, problematic and fun. Pretty awesome. Obsastic wrote, Bishop does not always make it clear who actually witnessed the events being described. He often fails to mention when the priests are in the room, when they're absent, and when the information comes secondhand from the boy's mother.

The possibility of fraudulent activity is neither considered nor investigated. What he needed was a good editor. Yeah. Just an editor to be like, you're not really giving us enough texture in these descriptions. Can you kind of like tell who else is in the room? That's the thing. It's like when they go back on Bravo shows

and like the editors give you the timestamps of the events that happened. Important. He needed something like that. So regardless of how things played out behind the scenes though, two days later on March 11th, Bishop Father Bishop returned to the family this time in the company of another key witness in this story. Father William Bodern.

So many fathers. Lots of fathers, daddies everywhere. Yeah. Around that's inappropriate to say. So many fathers. Lots of fathers, daddies everywhere. Yeah. Around, that's inappropriate to say. That was horrifying. Leave it in. Around 11 p.m. at night, Ronald went to bed. 11 p.m. at night? I don't know. I just feel silly. 11 p.m. at night. At night. That's actually one of my biggest bookings. I know it is. That's why I'm shocked you said it. Maybe I'm almost possessed. Maybe.

Around 11 p.m. in the evening, Ronald went to bed, at which point the three men gathered around his bedside and Bowdurn, I hate this. You know, they had to wait until he was sleeping. Bowdurn read the Novena, which is the Catholic devotional prayer. It also could be the Novena. I didn't look it up.

And reportedly blessed the boy with a quote, "'piece of bone from the forearm of St. Francis Xavier and fixed a relic encrusted crucifix under the boy's pillow before leaving the room. This is the most metal shit I've ever heard. Why do you have a bone from the forearm of St. Francis Xavier? Boop. Just like boopin' him with a boom.

Did he say that that's okay for you to have? I don't know about that. He's not here to say. That's my whole point. They just assume. They're assuming he's fine with it. You know what they say about assuming. You know what though?

So far he hasn't made a fuss. Maybe this is his fuss. Maybe this right here is his fuss. This is how he fusses. The fact that they just blessed, they quote unquote blessed him with a piece of bone from the forearm of Mr. St. Francis Xavier. I don't know. And put a relic encrusted crucifix under his pillow.

Yeah. You can't fucking make this up. No, you literally can't. This is real. Like you can't make that up. Well, a short time later, while the priests were sitting in the living room with the family, they heard a loud crash come from Ronald's room, Ronald Roland's room, and ran in to see what happened.

In the bedroom, they found that a large bookcase had slid across the room, a bench had been flipped over, and the crucifix that Father Bowdurn had put under the pillow appeared to be moved to the edge of the bed. Oh. Bowdurn also claimed that he witnessed the bed shaking when they entered the room, and it only came to a stop when Odell shouted, Aunt Tilly, stop! Here's my thought, though.

I think there's two things at play here. I think there's a daemon who's pushing over bookshelves and shit, and trying to pull that relic out. I think Aunt Tilly's shaking the bed to wake him up. To help him? To get out of the room. Maybe. So that's my view of this.

I think Aunt Tilly is trying to let him know that shit's afoot. I like to believe that Aunt Tilly just passed on. Yeah, if they're shaking the bed and she yells, Aunt Tilly stop and the bed shaking stops, then she was trying to wake him up. I agree. She was the one doing it. I like it. Yeah. Well, the scene witnessed in Ronald's bedroom that she was trying to wake him up. I agree. She was the one doing it. I like it. Well, the scene witnessed in Ronald's bedroom that night was enough to convince the priest

that something had in fact possessed the boy. After a few nights spent weighing their options, the two men took their concerns to Archbishop Joseph Ritter, and not to be confused with John Ritter. No. This is Joseph Ritter. Oh, I love John Ritter. I know, R-I-P. And on March 16th, Bowdoin was given permission

to perform the rite of exorcism. He got permission from the archdiocese. Which usually doesn't happen. No, archdiocese is pretty stingy with their permission giving. They don't just hand it out. Interesting that they don't just hand it out, but they gave it to a man who like wasn't super familiar with exorcisms.

Yeah, they were like, you'll figure it out. They were confident in his abilities. Yeah, I mean, he said he was coming up with a definition. It seems as though he did. That night, Bishop and Bowdern returned to the house, this time in the company of Bowdern's assistant, Father Walter Holleran, who becomes a bigger player later on, and started what would ultimately be an almost month long process of attempting to exercise whatever evil entity had possessed Ronald

Tunkler. Now, if you've ever seen an exorcism, picture that happening for a month. No. That's insane. I don't have the stamina. A lot of times they last like a couple hours or like a couple days and even that is horrifying. A month. A month. Almost a month. Yeah. For reasons that remain unclear throughout the process, Ronald would be moved back and forth multiple times between his aunt's home in a local rectory and Alexian Brothers Hospital in St. Louis.

Huh. So he was like hospitalized during this. Now after introducing the family to Father Halloran, Father Bodhran wasted no time getting to work. You cannot waste time when you're exercising. No, it's time. Yeah, on the treadmill or in a religious way. Yeah. So in Ronald Rowland's bedroom, Bowdurn started talking with Ronald Rowland to quote, examine his conscious and make an act of contrition before starting the rite. Then joined by the two other priests and several family members, the group gathered around

Ronald's bed and started praying. According to Father, as they prayed, the mattress began to lift slightly off the bed and then lower back down. But he insisted that the family ignore the theatrics and continue praying. Ain't no way I could ignore those theatrics. I could not pray through that. No way. No. For hours, the three priests recited the rite in Latin while the family continued their prayer. And finally, the first cycle of the right had ended and Father Bowdurn concluded by shouting, praescipio tibi, which is I command thee. Love it.

I don't know if I said it really well, but I did my best. Priest yelling in Latin is one of the scariest things ever. Yeah, I don't even like, like you really shouldn't read the Latin. I should not have. Not read the Latin. You see what I did there? I set that up. But when he yelled

that Ronald screamed in what sounded like terrible pain. Oh, no. And his father, Bowdurn, was concerned as far as he was concerned, Ronald's scream was evidence that he was indeed possessed and that the right was actually working. Yeah. Hell, yeah. So the priest continued aggressively reciting that right of exorcism as Ronald just rides around uncomfortably on the bed. Yeah. In his wild thrashing, he quickly kicked the blankets away, uncovering his body, and with his pajama top unbuttoned, the participants in the room watched as three red long welts appeared on his chest as if something was attempting to cut its way out of him from the inside. Damn.

Yeah. Later, Father Bishop would describe the welts as quote marks raised up above the surface of the skin similar to an engraving. And Father Bonner, he paid no attention to the welts. He just carried on with his right. Oh yeah. As more and more welts started appearing on Ronald's body. The more they recited, the more Ronald appeared to be in like immense pain. And soon the welts and scratches started producing faint lines of blood all over Ronald's legs, his stomach, and his back. Holy shit. Yeah. The longer the ritual dragged on, the more and more pain Ronald seemed to experience. At one point, one of the relatives in the room claimed that they saw the image of the devil. The devil. The devil himself. Appear on Ronald's thigh.

They saw it in his journal. Bishop wrote the arms were held above his head and seemed to be webbed, giving the hideous appearance of a bat. Okay. At other times in the evening, that's awesome. He's not saying they're not the hideous appearance. Well, he actually is rude. It is rude.

You should think about his words. Yeah. At other times in the evening, though, participants reported seeing words appear in the scratches on Ronald's body. People saw the words hell, go and a large X on his thigh. Okay. And that was before the days of Twitter turning to X. Oh, I don't know what that meant exactly. Now, after hours of the Latin ritual, the group finally broke for the night because everybody was really tired. Yeah. And Ronald appeared to fall into a deep sleep. But through the night, while still conscious, he would periodically slam his fists into the headboard above him or into his pillow. And the next morning when Father Bodurn asked what he was dreaming about, Ronald said he

had been fighting a huge red devil. It felt slimy and was extremely powerful. And Dave said, that sounds like puberty. He said, how else would you describe puberty if not slimy and was extremely powerful. And Dave said, that sounds like puberty. He said, how else would you describe puberty if not slimy and extremely powerful? And I said, Dave, that's a great point. I said, I don't have an argument for you, sir. In the days and weeks that followed, both the exorcism and Ronald's behavior grew more and more aggressive and offensive. In one diary entry, Father Bowdurn reports, from 12 midnight on, it was necessary to hold R during his fights with the spirit. Two men were necessary to pin him down on the

bed. R shouted threats of violence at them, but vulgar language was not used. Oh, that's good. R spit at his opponents many times. He used a strong arm whenever he could free himself, and his blows were beyond the ordinary strength of a boy. So I like they were like, he was violent, but he was never vulgar. He was never vulgar. It's important to know. It's important to know. But he was also swole. He was packing a swole beyond his years. Yeah, exactly. Now at times Ronald would also speak in a quote, diabolical high pitched voice, which I love it. What is a diabolical high pitched voice? Can you try it? Can you please try it? So like we're talking like a demon high voice. Diabolical high pitched. It's gotta be like,

I'm trying to like think of it. She's getting ready. She did something with her teeth. Cause you have to like get in a snarly way. I think it's gotta be like that. Cause you have to like get in a snarly way. It's gotta be like that. Kinda I don't like it. You gotta like show teeth when you do it. Mikey doesn't like it either. Mikey shook his head. I mean, it's diabolical.

I'm just picturing like, I'll get you my pretty. That's diabolical and high pitched. Yeah. You know, thanks. I don't know. We weren't there. We weren't there. We weren't there. And unfortunately, they don't have voice notes from back then.

They don't, unfortunately. Hey, weirdos. I'm Mike Corey. And like you, I'm drawn to true crime, creepy history and all things spooky. If you particularly enjoyed Ash and Elaine's coverage of the USS Indianapolis, where 900 sailors battled rough seas, sharks, dehydration and madness in the open ocean,

you need to check out my podcast, Against the Odds. We dive deep into the survival story across four full episodes, revealing details you haven't heard yet. Each week on Against the Odds, we put you in the shoes of real survivors, from the Thai Cave rescue, to Somali pirate hostages, to the Donner Party. These aren't just headlines, they're incredible stories of human endurance. Follow Against the Odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to both Against the Odds

and Morbid early and ad free. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify today. ["Wonderful Wondery"] He also was said to be swinging his fists at the priests and other adults in the room. He also supposedly broke Father Halloran's nose. Fuck.

I know. And then at other times he would sit up normally in bed and just sing sweetly. Oh, that's nice. And la-di-da-doo. La-di-da-dee. He would sit up and just go, abracadabra. Oh, that's great. He would also, sad, cry off and on.

But then immediately his attitude would change and he'd start swearing. He eventually starts swearing and being vulgar. And he would also make masturbation gestures in order to embarrass the other people in the room. Keep it together. That's diabolical. It truly is. Other times he would spout Latin words and phrases to the surprise of his parents who

swore that Ronald did not know Latin and had never been exposed to that language before. I know one thing about my kid is that he doesn't know Latin. That's the thing. At times though, he was said to be more lucid and appeared to be on the mend. So his parents started wondering maybe if it was time to return to Maryland and sent him back to school. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Because no, but there were like little like week long periods where he would be completely fine.

Yeah. So they'd be like, all right, like, you're 13. We got to give you to school. You got to learn shit. This will just be a silly time. We think about later where you were possessed for a little while. Honestly, what's funny is like, that's ultimately what ends up happening. Like it lives a long life. Funny story. Yeah. We look back on. But unfortunately, and this is so crazy, as soon as Ronald caught on to their conversations,

he would become possessed again. Whoa. In one instance, when the subject of his returning to school came up, he started thrashing around on the bed and tore open his pajama top, and it revealed that the words no school were scratched on his chest. This demon does not fuck with the heavy learning. He said, schools out for seven. I wish it said that instead.

That song wasn't a thing yet, I don't think. So as the days wore on, Ronald became more abusive to anyone and everyone who entered the room. He would swear at them. He would attempt and sometimes succeed to make himself entered the room. He would swear at them. He would attempt and sometimes succeed to make himself vomit. Oh, that would piss me off.

He would piss on himself and otherwise be assaultive. In one instance, he managed to break one of the bed springs from the mattress and jam it into Father Bowdarn's arm. Drawing blood, obviously. Another time when the family traveled back to Cottage City for a visit, accompanied by Father Bowdern, Ronald became physically violent on the train. He was said to have punched Bowdern in the testicles and screamed, that's a nutcracker for you, isn't it?

Which is low key just teenage boy shit. He just teenage boy shit. That is low key. I'm like, baby, he wasn't possessed. That's just a 13 year old boy. He just doesn't have another 13 year old boy to do it to. So he does it to the priest that's been sitting by his bed every night. Thinking of him punching a priest in the balls. Whoop-pow. And saying, that's a nutcracker for you, isn't it?

Is not your problem. I love it. Isn't it? I love it. I love that part of it. That's a nutcracker for you, isn't it? Father. Can you confirm that's a nutcracker for you, isn't it? Father, can you confirm that's a nutcracker, father? Can you confirm that I just cracked yo nuts?

Dee's nuts. It is literally if this kid had friends. If he hadn't been pulled out of school and all that shit. Oh, he was nutcracker in people when he was at school. He would be nutcracking everybody. He's 13 years old and he'd be doing it and be like, that's a nutcracker for you, huh? And then they'd all laugh. He was doing that.

That's why he got kicked out of school. But instead he's got like an older priest that exudes all the time. Oh my God. That's his friend. He's like, of course. Isn't it? Isn't it? So funny.

Oh damn. Imagine being on that train. I would have taken out my phone. I would have taken out my phone. To the little vid. 1943 wouldn't have stopped me. You would have just gotten that for TikTok. Well, for some reason, after all that craziness, on April 4th, the Hunklers decided it was

time to go back to Maryland so that Edwin could go to work and Ronald Rowland could go back to school and cracker someone else. Then after five days in Maryland, Ronald started acting out again. So he got sent back to Missouri and admitted to a hospital where he was observed for psychiatric symptoms. Feeling like they'd left too soon, Edwin and Odell also returned to Missouri to support their son. Those are good parents right there.

The exorcism finally came to an end on the evening of April 18th. The priest had spent most of the afternoon and evening reciting the rite of exorcism over the boy, who now was draped in several religious medals and holding a crucifix in his hand. My god. It creates the imagery. Yeah, it constructs a visual. in several religious medals and holding a crucifix in his hand. My god. It creates the imagery. Yeah, it constructs a visual.

Yeah. Throughout the day, his demeanor had swung back and forth from calm and pleasant to mean and violent. But by the evening, he did seem to have calmed down. And his father, Bodurn, recited the Latin phrases over the bed, demanding to know the identity of the demon that possessed the boy. Ronald Rowland's demeanor changed again, and he started thrashing about the bed, claiming he was a fallen angel. Oh, like the devil? Like Satan?

Like Lucifer Morningstar. Yeah. Finally, around 11 p.m., a quote, new masculine voice emerged from Ronald, who said, Satan, Satan, I am Saint Michael. I command you, Satan, and the other evil spirits to leave this body, in the name of Dominus, immediately. Now, now, I am Saint Michael. I command you, Satan, and the other evil spirits to leave this body in the name of Dominus immediately. Now, now, now. That's my best masculine voice.

Mike is literally... Mike is beat red. That shit broke me. That shit broke me! Satan! Satan! In the name of dominess! Immediately! Immediately! All junior girls report to the gymnasium! Immediately! Oh my God. I haven't laughed this hard in years.

Oh shit. I love a paranormal story. You do. They're so good. Well, after that male voice emerged. That was a clip by the way. Oh man. It was audio. They got it from 1940. Yeah. Whatever. That was funny. After that Ronald Roland's body spasmed one final time. He fell backward on the bed. And then in his normal 13 year old voice, he said, he is gone. He said, cool. He peaced out y'all.

Y'all he left. He said, peace out. Later. The ultimate Irish goodbye. He didn't feel like staying any longer. He didn't say bye, but he just left. So later, Ronald would tell Father Bodurn, in that final moment of possession, he had a vision of St. Michael holding a flaming sword. Heavy metal.

The Hunkler family stayed in Missouri with the family for 12 more days just to be sure that Satan was actually gone before finally returning home to Maryland. During this time, Father checked in with them regularly, but as far as anybody could tell, the possessing demon had left Ronald's body for good. By all accounts, the phenomenon never occurred again once the Hunklers went back to Cottage City. Ronald was enrolled at Gorgonzola High School, and he went on to college,

where he studied chemical engineering and went on to work as a scientist for NASA. Okay, Ronald. Period. Okay. The motherfucker who inspired the story of the exorcist became a scientist for NASA. That blew my mind. That's the funnest fact.

That is the funnest fact. The funnest of all facts. The funnest fact. Thank you for agreeing. That's really cool. In a letter dated August 19th, 1951, Father Bishop wrote of his visit to the Hunkler's house. He said, R, now 16, is a fine young man. His father and mother also became Catholic, having received their first Holy Communion

on Christmas Day, 1950. Damn. Praise be. I mean, I guess if anything's going to turn you Catholic, that's going to do it. It's an exorcism. It's a possession. Well, the diary of the account written by Father Bishop, like I said, became something of a legend at Georgetown University. Though few have actually seen it. I want to see it. Well, few have, so good luck. No one seems to be able to settle on how long the document actually is. Some people say it's 16 pages and others say 26.

Okay. But presumably this is how it came to the attention of the Washington Post and other Washington area papers in late 1949, where it gained some brief traction before mostly fading into obscurity, since none of the reporters seemed to be able to track down any of the participants to verify any kind of story. Other sources allege that Father Luther Miles, the family's local priest, was the source to leak to the press, and that's when this story really came out. While some of the press reports minimized the supposed demonic possession, which is fucking lame, others chose to play it up or just tell it as it was for all it was worth,

citing the various ungodly messages that appeared on Ronald's body. Like no school. Like no school. That's ungodly. And the various examples of unknown telekinetic force, like when the picture of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was booty bumped off the wall. Exactly. If it wasn't for William Peter Blatty's 1971 novel and the movie that followed two years

later, it's pretty likely that nobody actually would have ever heard of Roland O or Ronald Hunkler. It's true. But the timing was just right. Americans were taking a particular interest in the occult at the time. So the story was thrust back into the spotlight and it kind of took on a life of its own. Now it's important to be clear that even Blatty's novel was heavily influenced by Ronald's story, even though it was, it's actually just one of several influential stories and events

that also included the Lodun possessions and the Louvier's possession. Both were 17th century witch trials that I think you would probably be pretty interested in covering. So write that down, Beaj. I'm writing it down right now. And there were different archeological excavations that occurred throughout the early to mid-19th century across Africa and the Middle East that also inspired his story. So with so many different versions of the story floating around in the cultural zeitgeist,

the question remains, what exactly did happen to Ronald Hunkler in 1949? Was he possessed by a demonic presence or was there something even more complicated going on? Who knows? Now, at this point it's probably impossible to say with certainty what exactly happened to Ronald, but if there was an authority on the subject it would probably be investigative journalist Mark Upczasnik. More than just the individual responsible for discovering Roland Doe's real identity, he also devoted a ton of time to the story. He conducted interviews with more than a hundred people who actually knew the Hunkler family personally and the other figures in the story, all in an attempt to verify the details of what has become one

of America's most iconic scary stories. In his interviews with Ronald's childhood friends and peers revealed that far from being an ordinary shy boy, Ronald Hunkler was a very lonely, somewhat troubled kid who was struggling. His father never actually believed that his son was possessed reportedly, was emotionally unavailable, so he really comes up in the story at all. And the women in his life, on the other hand, were hugely influential, almost to his detriment, especially like his mom, I think, using their love of spiritualism as maybe the only means of bonding with him. And when it came to children his own age, it seems like his behavior and, you know,

flaws kept them at an arm's length. But Obsaznik didn't just speak to Ronald's friends and family. He also tracked down anybody who was directly involved with the case or familiar enough with those who were. And of the three priests at the center of the exorcism story, only Father Halloran was alive when Obsaznik began his investigation. At the time, Halloran actually reluctantly agreed to an interview, but he ended up revealing a lot about the case and its legacy. When asked whether or not he would go on record as saying he believed that Ronald was truly possessed, he declined. Oh.

He said, no, I can't go on record. I never made an absolute statement about these things because I didn't feel I was qualified. I hadn't studied the phenomena and that sort of thing. According to him, Ronald never spoke in a voice other than his own. He never demonstrated supernatural strength or abilities. And when asked about Ronald's supposed extraordinary strength, Halloran said, I don't know, I never even thought very much about it. It certainly wasn't Mike Tyson hitting me in the nose or something like that. And as for Ronald speaking Latin,

a language that he supposedly didn't know and had only occasionally heard, Father clarified, I think he mimicked us. Oh, okay. So he's a non-believer. Okay. You know? I mean, all valid. All valid.

But the rest of his interview with Father Halloran unfolded in a similar thread. He recalls Ronald spitting and swearing a lot. He didn't have any recollection of Ronald vomiting or urinating. And as far as the multiple reports of the bed moving, he acknowledged that they did. But he said it was on rollers like any bed at the time. So there was really no way of knowing if it was moving like how it was from him moving or if it was OK. Yeah. Obsesnick's investigation obviously provides a lot of clarifying information

around what did and didn't happen during the exorcism of Ronald Hunkler. But it also provides some insight as to why there are so many gaps in the story and how it managed to get out to the public. Yeah, for sure. And when it comes to the earlier part of the story where Bishop claims to have been involved with the family in Ronald's hospitalization as well as his own attempted exorcism, Obsaznik was unable to find any information on Bishop's claims, so we don't know. His research indicates that Bishop didn't get involved until March, and that the vast

majority of the information he collected was from secondhand sources. Absasnik pointed out, no mention is made whatsoever of the alleged first exorcism attempted by Father Hughes at Georgetown University Hospital, and nothing is written of the boy's father's feelings or level of involvement, or the possible presence of psychosomatic illness within the boy. Interesting. Very interesting. If Mark Obsaznik and other skeptics are correct and Ronald Hunkler was never really possessed, then what actually did happen? Obsaznik says, personally, I do not believe Rob Doe was possessed. And instead, he's come to his own conclusion based

on everything he learned about the case and the people involved. He said, there's simply too much evidence that indicates that as a boy he had serious emotional problems stemming from his home life. There's not one shred of hard evidence to support the notion of demonic possession. The facts show that he was a spoiled and disturbed only child with a very overprotective mother and a non-responsive father. To me, his behavior was indicative of an outcast youth who desperately wanted out of Bladensburg Junior High School at any cost. He wanted attention and he wanted to leave the area and go to St. Louis. Throwing tantrums was the answer. He began to play his concocted game. For his efforts he got a collection of priests who had no previous

exorcism experience, who doted over him as he lay strapped to a bed. His response was that of any normal child. He reacted with rage. He wanted out. Without delving into the dynamics of psychosomatic illness, there's no question there was something wrong with Rob Doe prior to January 1949, something that modern psychiatrist might have best addressed. Rob Doe was not just another normal teenage boy. My favorite part of that is that he got a collection of priests. As his prize. He said he was upset and he got a collection of priests. And he got a collection of priests. That's just the most horrifying thing I can imagine.

That's not the prize that I personally want. Like you, oh, you want to play this game? Here's a collection of priests that's going to sit by your bed at night. Do you feel as though you've won? Did you win? Did you win, Ronald? That's a real lose-lose. It is. Well, whether he was possessed or not, Ronald Hunkler's 1949 claims of possession did help

to fuel America's imaginations and of course, America's interest in the supernatural. And of course, as one of the primary influences on the exorcist, his story is everywhere. It's like part of American supernatural lore. And while we may never know if it was real or not, it seems at this point, it really doesn't matter. No, it really doesn't. It's a fun fucking story. The story is fucking a blast all the way through. I think it's great.

Yeah, I like that story. I love that story. And I love that he became a NASA scientist. So like he got it worked out. Yeah. He came out the other end. Personally, good for him. I think he was possessed. I think you know, let's go girls.

Yeah. And I think I my story is that he was possessed and until he helped him out. That's I like that. Thank you. Thank you. Jesus Christ. Amen. Jesus Christ.

Um, so yeah, if you want to keep listening, we hope you do. We hope you keep listening. We hope you keep it weird, but not so weird as getting a prize of three priests. Of a collection of priests. Unless you want that, a collection of priests. You can have it if you want it. If you want it. If you want it, it's available to you. Keep it so weird that if you want that, you get it, and that if you don't, you don't.

Bye. Bye! I'm going to go to the bathroom. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest, and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and

doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries, and each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries should be your new go-to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wond Mysteries on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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