Morbid - Episode 685: Glen Helzer and the Children of Thunder (Part 1)

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

When Ivan and Annette Stineman disappeared from their home in Concord, California in the summer of 2000, it immediately raised red alarmed with those closest to the elderly couple. Those alarms proved to be justified when, a week later, the remains of the Stinemans and three others were discovered in duffel bags in Sacramento River Delta.The day after the remains were found in river, investigators arrested Taylor and Justin Helzer, and Justin’s girlfriend, Dawn Godman, for the murders of Ivan and Annette Stineman. A short time later, they would also be charged with the murders of Taylor’s girlfriend, Selina Bishop, her mother, Jenny Villarin, and Villarin’s boyfriend, Jim Gamble.At first, investigators believed the murders were part of a plot to extort the Stinemans for a large amount of money, but the deeper they dug into the lives and backgrounds of the killers, a different and far more bizarre motive began to emerge.Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesAguila, Justino. 2000. "Boyfriend probed in homicides." San Francisco Examiner, August 7: 3.Bulwa, Demian. 2004. "Killer lays out grisly details of murder spree." San Francisco Chronicle, May 28.Kim, Ryan. 2000. "Double slaying rattles Marin town." San Francisco Examiner, August 4: 16.Lee, Henry K. 2013. "Justin Helzer hangs himself in prison." San Francisco Chronicle, April 16.People of the State of California v. Helzer. 2024. S132256 (Supreme Court of California, January 22).Read, Simon. 2004. "Jury finds Helzer guilty of murder." East Bay Times, June 17.San Francisco Examiner. 2000. "Delta body parts identified ." San Francisco Examiner, August 9.—. 2000. "Elvin Bishop's daughter missing." San Francisco Examiner, August 5: 3.Scott, Robert. 2005. Unholy Sacrifice. New York, NY: Pinnacle Books.Stay in the know - wondery.fm/morbid-wondery.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery+. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.

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Much simpler than using a smart speaker. Hey smart speaker, search dinner music. Okay. Pulling search history. What? Why am I gooey? No. Does my mom like me? Stop.

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SmallBed. SmallBed honey, how are you? Um, I'm not great with the state of the world. Yeah, it's pretty bullshit out there. One thing we just want to make pretty clear is fuck ICE. Yeah. So if you work with that right off the top of your head, you have to be a fucking demon. Yeah, it's pretty awful. And I hope if you're in Los Angeles, you're safe and you're okay. And we know that you're not rioting. You're protesting as is your constitutional rights.

So, you know, keep at it, be safe. Hold American flags. Hold American flags for the optics. Yep. You know, I saw somebody on TikTok say that and I thought that was pretty smart. I've been seeing a few people say that now. Yeah, so that it's not, you know, they can't twist it.

And be careful. Be very careful. Look out if you see people like in trouble, try to help them. Yeah, but like really be safe and I'm sorry that this is happening to you guys and that you're being retaliated against. That's fucked up.

There is, I know there's other protests going on, so everybody be safe and fight the good fight, fight it, but stay safe. Because this is really fucked up. It's a very, very scary time to be alive. It really, really is. And we didn't vote for this. So we just want to, I mean, I'm pretty sure that was pretty clear, but I think it's important to say it outright in these here streets because there's some people who are not saying it outright and that makes me say, yeah, no, we deaf. What's happening there?

We Defo did not vote for that. Definitely not. And again, know your rights, which I know in this, you know, time and space, they're not exactly being listened to at this point, but when it comes to ICE and all that stuff, know your rights, know what they can and can't do. You don't have to sign anything. Yeah.

But I know that it's getting harder to do that even because they're really just overstepping things. But yeah, we just want to start out by saying that, that fuck ICE and we don't, we don't agree with any of this and, and this is stolen land anyway. So, so really, yeah, I have a right to be here just as much as we do. And everybody has a right to a dignified and you know, humane path to citizenship, if that is the path they would like to take. Like Dutchy said, I don't fucking care about the piece of paper.

Dutchy on TikTok. I love Dutchy. I love Dutchy on TikTok and I agree. Like that's, you know, so take care of your community members. Stay strong everybody. We'll get through this. We will. We'll get on the other side. And again, I don't know when this comes out.

42 years from now. So hopefully, this will be out after the next presidential election. Exactly. But I, but I, hopefully, like, you know, that this is something we've been feeling as it's happening and we would love to, you know to say it earlier than this on the podcast. It won't always be like this. Yeah, it won't always be like this. June 30th is when this will come out.

So it'll be quite some time after this all started. So I'm sure you're like, hey, what? But we felt like this. But it's in the moment right now. It's June 13th right now. So we are feeling it as it's happening. And check out my social media if you want to see how I feel. Same, I'm back.

So yeah, we just had to say something. We thought it was really important. But besides that, what has been going on? With me? Yeah. No, with the guy that's... Who's me? With the guy that's...

Who's me? Who's me? Who's me? Oh my God, so much. It was my birthday. It was your birthday. Yeah, it was fun. I just vibed.

I love that. Yeah, it turned 29. I was like, what do you really do? Yeah. You know, I used to be like, it's my birthday. It's my fucking birthday. Yeah, I used to be really intense about it. But as I feel like as you get older, it becomes like you just want to have chill birthdays.

Yeah, it's just a day. I hung out with my little sister and her fiance who's adorable. I love her fiance. I love my little sister. I love them too. You had a walk so you couldn't be there. I did. I had the Boston Children's Hospital ever source walk. How was that? It was actually great. You raised some money? Yeah. I do not. We got to see people that, you know, helped my daughter survive something awful. That's pretty great. That was pretty great. He said thanks. Yeah, we got to say thanks. Thanks a billion. And the girls were involved in it. We always take them with them on the walk so they can be part of everything. It's so crazy. That happened when she was four. Yeah. And like now she's just a fucking adult. Yeah. It's wild. It's insane.

It's so crazy. And like thriving. I know. Hell yeah. Drew and I were talking about that the other day. And I was like, it's crazy because she remembers a lot of it. Oh yeah, she does. Which is like nuts because she was four, but obviously it was so traumatic. Yeah. But I'm just like, the fact that she came out of that unscathed is wild. She's just thriving now. Yeah. And we got, and while we were there, we got to see Lil Funk. Lil Funk. Which are the like official dance troupe of the Boston Celtics.

I love that. They're like these little kids. And I think it's in Everett, Massachusetts, it's like funk phenomenon or something. Stop it. And they have all different age groups and they are some of the best dancers I have ever seen in my life.

They're all age groups. That's so fun. But Lil Funk is like the little kids. And they kill it. Like it is watching them is unlike anything you will experience. I love them. Lil Funk for life. But yeah, they're all amazing.

Like they had the adult ones perform too and they were out of this world amazing. So that's really fun. So if you get to a Celtics game, you'll probably see Lil' Funk. Oh, and I'm going to be at so many more next year, right? Hell yeah. Yay. Hell yeah. I don't have season's tickets yet.

What else did, oh, since we've talked to you, we went to the Jack's Mannequin show. That was so much fun. That was a lot of fun. We got to hang out with Andrew. We got to see Andrew. That was lovely. Got to go on the side stage. Yeah, that was really fun. We got to watch the end of the show from backstage. I've never felt cooler in my life.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. That was a huge experience. That was big. Wants to come back on the show. Big up. Yeah, he's going to come back. So we'll do another show with him. Hopefully soon, I think, actually.

Yeah, a couple of months or so. We got some cool stuff coming up. Yeah, we do. So, you know, I guess without further ado, we should get into this wild case. Yeah, it's yours. This is an interesting, like, title. Yeah, I would say so. Like, title. Title. This is part one, because there's a lot of information going to be thrown at you.

It's Glenn Helzer and the Children of Thunder. The Children of Thunder. Yeah, like that sounds very ominous. Is it a cult? I guess you'll have to see. Okay. But if this is going to be a two part, a two part, a do. And this takes place in 2000, actually. So not like crazy old. I mean, that is sort of that is pretty old. But like 25 fucking years ago. To me, that's 10 years ago. So I don't I don't understand to be as well. I talked to somebody who was born in 2002 the other day and I was like, what the fuck? Yeah, I can't even though I'm not that far away from it. Yeah, something about I know I was gonna say you're really not that far from that. I'm not, but like 96 in 2002 feel like completely different, like things entirely.

Yeah, no, I get that. You know, and I'm just old. I'm just old, old soul. I hang out with you guys all the time. There's a Red Sox prospect that got brought up recently from like the miners. Yeah. So there's, his name is Roman Anthony. And John found out the other day, and it very much upset him in his core is Roman Anthony and John found out the other day and it very much upset him in

his core that Roman Anthony was born in 2004. Yeah. He's 18. He was about, no, he's not 18. He's 20. He just turned 21, I think. I graduated in 2004. That was 20 years ago. It said the 18 year old was drafted in the second round in 2022.

But still, he's what? So what is he 2020? He's like 21, essentially. Fucking insane. But what's even worse is he was like five months old when the Red Sox won the World Series. Were you there? So when the Red Sox won the World Series, he was a five month old who was then going to be one of their hottest prospects 20 years later.

Which is like a very like, I just can't wrap my brain around that. Yeah, that's crazy. It just really, I was like, whoa, every time they come through, especially on the Red Sox for some reason, they're just so young that I'm like, you are babies. And I don't know what to do. I mean, 20, 21 is young. That's bebe. We started this when I was 21.

Yeah. Wow. I might have been 22, but I was like around that age. That's bonkers. I know. I'm a fucking whole different, the human now. Herman. Herman. Herman, are we all? Yeah.

So speaking, so that all goes to say that this took place in 2000. Yeah, sorry, we really. So that feels like we really digressed there. Yeah, it's been a long week, okay? You know what though, I think people are enjoying that we're digressing lately because they're saying it feels like old morbid.

I have seen a lot of people say it feels like old morbid. Yeah, is it because we're digressing? I think it is because we're just like going for, I don't know. I feel, um, there's a reason. The way I was just going to like be so for real with y'all. We have to keep going. We have to keep going. I feel, I feel fancy free, you know? Almost.

I feel like we're back to the roots. So on the evening of July 30th, 2000, Nancy Hall called her elderly parents, Ivan and Annette Steinman, to check in with them. She'd done that regularly for years. Nancy's mother answered the phone that night, but rather than chatting, as she usually did during these calls, Annette seemed as though she was in a rush and didn't really have a lot of time to talk. After a few minutes of chatting, Annette told her daughter that she'd have to hang up and would call her back later since they were expecting company and they'd just arrived.

Okay. So, Ivan and Annette Steinman met while Ivan was serving in the Coast Guard during World War II, and they fell in love immediately. Lurv. To the outside world, they seemed like a little bit of like an unusual match. Just because Ivan was really quiet and reserved and he didn't have a lot of like big displays of emotion. And Annette was outgoing, very gregarious, very active, like total opposites attract

kind of situation. That's the thing. I was just going to say opposites attract. Yeah. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. To battle stress, most of us can't just like wave goodbye to work, but we can start

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They loved each other very much. Oh, that's precious. And I bet it's going to ruin me later. Now the couple married in 1945 and soon after Annette gave birth to two daughters, Nancy and Judy. In many ways, the family was the picture perfect in 1950s American family. They got along well and both parents were actively involved in their daughter's lives. Judy later recalled, our parents were always interested in our lives.

They made sure we did our homework. They watched over us and cared how we did. Oh. Ivan and Annette strived to give their daughters everything they could possibly need or want. Despite their very meager means and limited income. They were the kind of parents who like kids come first, we either get or we don't. So good parents. Exactly. Now, in fact, Ivan, a professional carpenter, built the family home in California himself

with help from his wife and the children. Iconic. Yeah. Nancy said, we were so poor in the beginning, mom and dad had to take old nails from boards, straighten them, and use them in the new construction. Oh wow. Yeah. That's terrifying.

Despite the stresses of a working class life, Nancy and Judy have nothing but fond memories them and use them in the new construction. Oh wow. Yeah. That's terrifying. Despite the stresses of a working class life, Nancy and Judy have nothing but fond memories with their parents, especially like little outings they took like family camping trips they would take every summer and they would go fishing on like fishing trips with their dad a lot. That's really cute. Now in carpentry became too much of a physical strain. Ivan found work in the credit card division of Chevron, which is a national energy company with multiple business products and platforms.

Yeah, I've heard of Chevron. The job was stressful and there were long hours, but it was pretty financially rewarding and it allowed them to buy a home in a relatively upscale city of Concord, about 30 miles outside of San Francisco. Oh, I thought you were going to say Mass. Mass, no. And once both girls had moved out of the house, Annette also found a job with Chevron and they were earning a good living. Nice.

All Ivan and Annette's hard work definitely paid off because by the time they retired, they had invested very wisely and had managed to save a decent amount of money. Thanks in part because of a young, savvy financial advisor with Morgan Stanley. This savings and wise investment allowed Ivan and Annette to enjoy their retirement years, going on trips, fishing together, not a lot of financial stress. They just kind of could like live that easy life. Living it up. Yeah. It was really an ideal retirement. Like it looked like it was like their reward

for an entire life dedicated to their family and hard work. Yeah. Essentially, like they were that couple that you're like, hell yeah. Good on ya. Now on the afternoon of July 30th, Ivan and Annette spent the afternoon at Coco's Restaurant in downtown Concord, sharing a few drinks and a lunch later with friends. At one point, Ivan mentioned that they'd recently had a tech

from the cable company out to work on something at the house. And he felt the man had taken a very long time to do what was, as far as Ivan could tell, a pretty straightforward task. Uh-oh. At hearing that, his friend Harry had joked and was like, oh, maybe the guy's case in your house. He could be.

The four friends finished their lunch a little before 3 PM and Ivan and Annette arrived home 10 or 15 minutes later. A few hours later, just before 8 PM, Nancy called to check in. Yeah. But her mother had cut the conversation short because they were having people over that evening. The Steinman family had always been close

and Nancy was not accustomed to having days pass without hearing from her mother or father. When four or five days passed and she hadn't heard from either of them and couldn't get them on the phone, she decided to drive over to the house to check on them. And when she arrived at the house, she immediately knew something was wrong. The couple's minivan wasn't in the driveway, which indicated they weren't home. Oh, that's weird. And on the doorstep, Nancy found a pile of the previous day's newspapers, delivered, but never brought in the house. Inside, things were even more concerning. Upstairs, Nancy found one of Ivan and Annette's cats locked in the bathroom

without food or water. No! After spending some time looking around the house, she found the other cat locked outside in the backyard. Nancy and her sister had always had pets when they grew up and they had inherited from their parents a big love and appreciation and respect for animals. So it was impossible for this to have happened on purpose. Neither of them would have locked those cats in a bathroom or outside, much less without food or water.

They never would have done that to their animals. No. Elsewhere in the house, there were other signs that something was amiss. It looked like they had gone through their personal papers in a hurry and hadn't put the house back together after doing that. Okay. Like it was just a mess. And most distressing of all, and I understand why this really lit the alarm bells, Nancy

found her father's wristwatch on the floor in the living room. Oh, that is chilling. Isn't that chilling? Yes. And it was like just underneath the couch. Nope. I fucking hate that. I think I would immediately cry.

Oh, it would ruin me. And when she picked it up to look at it, she noticed the band was damaged around the clasp, like it had been ripped off Ivan's wrist, not taken off. Yeah, something is not right here. Yeah. So very concerned about all this. She called the police and reported her parents missing. Investigators came a short time later and performed a thorough search of the house.

But as far as anyone could tell, the only things missing were Ivan and Annette. Although it's always concerning when an elderly couple disappears for days, there was little to indicate they'd gone missing as a result of foul play. Like there was stuff, but like not a lot for them to go on. They didn't find blood or anything like that. That's the thing. They didn't find any kind of... No glass shattered or...

Obviously there is signs that something is amiss here. The wristwatch. Yes, the wristwatch being the biggest one. And the cats. And the cats, yeah. They never would have done that. Like that to me would have been like really a problem. Bizarre.

Yeah. Also, a canvas of the neighborhood didn't produce any new or alarming details from neighbors. So again, there's really nothing to go on. Not in my neighborhood. There was, I know, that's why it's really good to have like a very active and nosy neighborhood if you can. There was, however, one statement from a neighbor that seemed to confirm what Nancy's mother had told her over the phone when they last spoke.

According to the neighbor across the street, on the night of July 30th, she happened to be looking out her window and saw two men she described as looking like Mormon missionaries walking up to the Steinman house a little before 8 p.m. Thinking nothing of it. Why would you? The neighbor shifted her attention elsewhere and didn't think about it until the detectives

brought it up. Because again, you wouldn't think twice about that. And usually Mormon missionaries, I think are like younger, like teens, early 20s kind of people. They're dressed nicely. So while detectives in Concord are struggling to make any progress on the disappearance of Ivan and Annette Steinman, detectives 50 miles away

in Marin County were about to embark upon a very similarly strange and baffling case as well. On the morning of August 3rd, the Marin County Sheriff's Office received a call from a wood-acre residence talking about gunshots in the house across the street. When deputies arrived at the house, they were directed to a small studio apartment located just behind the house. Inside the apartment, they found the bodies of 45-year-old Jennifer Valerian and her 54-year-old boyfriend, James Gamble.

Both were nude, Jennifer still in bed and James on the floor beside the bed, and both had been shot to death with a 9mm handgun. A quick look around the apartment indicated that the murders had not been committed during a robbery. There was no signs of struggle. It didn't appear anything noteworthy was taken. It also didn't appear like the killer had gone through anybody's belongings. Also the apartment would have been a less than ideal target for a robbery as well because

it was surrounded by larger homes, presumably owned by people much wealthier. And it was also tucked away from the road behind the main house. Huh. That meant whoever had killed Jennifer and James would have had to know the studio apartment was even there in the first place. Right. This was particularly telling since the apartment was actually that of Jennifer's daughter, Selena. Oh.

Who was out of town when the murders were committed. Curious. Now, unfortunately for investigators, the scene was virtually devoid of evidence or leads. They had the shell casings from the 9mm used in the murder, but otherwise, the killer left nothing. A canvas of the neighborhood was also pretty discouraging. The neighbor who called in the report told detectives they'd heard six to eight shots

around 5 a.m., followed by a short time later the sound of a car speeding away from the apartment. But they only heard those things. They didn't see anything. The murders came as a shock to the residents of Woodacre. Not only because Jennifer and Jim were well known locally, but also because Jennifer was somewhat well known nationally. She was the one time wife of blues musician Elvin Bishop. Oh. In a press conference the following day, under-sheriff Dennis Finnegan told reporters the couple didn't appear to have any enemies.

And in fact, they seem to be kind of beloved members of the community. Finnegan said, we're still working on a motive. It doesn't appear to be a robbery or a random type of thing. No. Now, the case took an even more troubling turn the following day when investigators couldn't reach Jennifer's daughter, Selena. From interviews with Selena's friends and coworkers, they learned that her mother had been staying at Selena's apartment while she was away on a camping trip in Yosemite.

But no one had heard from her since she'd left a week earlier. According to her friends, this is completely out of character for her to not return. Captain Tom McMans told a report of this. Now the Marin County Sheriff's Office put out a missing person alert for Selena Bishop and began speaking to her friends to learn more about her life, like what's going on here. By all accounts, Selena Bishop was a kind, sweet,

and somewhat naive young woman without a single enemy to speak of. By all accounts, Selena Bishop was a kind, sweet, and somewhat naive young woman without a single enemy to speak of. Raised by her mother, since her parents were divorced, I think they divorced when she was like 10 years old. They had a super strong bond. And now in adulthood, they had a close relationship as like friends now. You know, you get to go into that.

According to those close to her, Selena had recently found work as a server in a local restaurant and that provided her the income to move out on her to her own apartment, which was the studio where the bodies of Jennifer and Jim were found. Around that time, Selena had also begun dating someone new. A man friends had heard her refer to only as Jordan. Hmm. Smart Money Moves Smart Money Moves are all about getting more out of every single dollar. With Rocket Money, you can easily find forgotten subscriptions and have them negotiate your bills for you, putting money back into your pocket.

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Go to rocketmoney.com slash morbid today. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid, rocketmoney.com slash morbid. In Costa Rica, we live Pura Vida, an energy that defines our relationship to each other and the earth. Pura Vida means that happiness guides our journeys, that we live in harmony with the natural world, that when you're truly in the moment, joy finds you,

and everyone is welcome to experience this energy. That's pura vida. Come join the vibe. Find out more at visitcostarica.com. According to one of Jennifer's closest friends, Selena's mother was super desperate to meet this Jordan, obviously. Yeah. It's her daughter, Selena's mother was super desperate to meet this Jordan, obviously. Yeah.

It's her daughter and they're very close. Right. But Selena was like reluctant to introduce them. Apparently it had only been a few months since they had started dating. She wasn't sure. But not content with that response. I'm like a few months, 25 years ago was like years and today's really was today's world of dating.

It's true. But her mother, Jennifer, was not content with that response. So she started stopping by her daughter's apartment on a dance, just hoping to catch him there. Queen. And be like, oh, here I am. I guess we'll just meet. Oh, gee. Yeah.

I love that. And honestly, it paid off because eventually she stopped by and was introduced to Jordan. Nice. Now I know who your daughter's dating. I get it. Yeah, of course. It's unclear what it was precisely about Jordan that left Jennifer so unimpressed. A gut feeling.

But it was clear to friends that she had been expecting something different. Oh, okay. And it turned out her impression of him didn't get any better in the days that followed their introduction. According to Jennifer's friend, Selena's mother had developed some concerns about this guy after learning some more stuff about him. Jordan had told Selena he was still married, but he was going to get a divorce, which is like, uh-oh. He claimed he was about to inherit a large sum of money. And he didn't want his soon to be ex-wife to know about that money, so she would get half of it. So he asked Selena to open an account in her name where they could hide the money.

Baby no. And she agreed. No. No. When someone asks you to do that shit. But then, hindsight is 20-20. No. But you're listening to this episode.

If somebody ever asks you to do that, no. Run. It's a no. Leave. When they learned about the bank account Selena opened on her boyfriend's behalf, investigators became concerned that what they had been investigating as a missing person case might actually be something far more nefarious.

Those suspicions only grew when after talking to some of Selena's coworkers, they learned that it was Jordan who had told them Selena was going away to Yosemite. Oh no. Yeah. One of them said, so McMahon said, supposedly he is the last person who may have seen Selena Bishop and we want to know when and where that was. Yeah. The main problem investigators faced was while they had a first name for Selena's boyfriend,

no one seemed to know or had ever heard his last name. And Jordan is a pretty common name. Yeah. What they did know though was that Selena had a pager that she frequently used and it had been found among her things at work. The pager was turned over to investigators who began combing through the numbers associated with incoming calls. To their surprise, none of the phone numbers were listed under anyone by the name of Jordan.

So he's using a fake name. But there was a number that appeared frequently on the list and it was someone named Glenn No numbers were listed under anyone by the name of Jordan. So he's using a fake name. But there was a number that frequently that appeared frequently on the list and it was someone named Glenn Taylor Helzer. Not Jordan. When detectives did a background check on Helzer, they found no criminal record or anything else that would be considered a red flag. Okay.

But there was something that did jump out to investigators. Helzer lived with his brother Justin, who had recently purchased and registered a nine millimeter handgun. The same caliber used in the shooting of Jennifer and James. Now when investigators started digging into the backgrounds of Taylor and Justin Helzer, nothing about the two guys fit the pattern of a criminal, much less a murderer. Glenn Taylor Helzer was born July 26, 1970 to Jerry and Karma Helzer in Lansing, Michigan. He's a cancer. Not long after Taylor's birth, they moved to a town, the town of Pachico, California

in Contra Costa County, where their second son Justin was born, the last of the three Helzer children. Wait, he's a Leo, sorry. Really? Just kidding. From the moment he entered the world, Taylor was the center of his parents life. Taylor was incredibly bright, very charming. He had this like natural leadership quality about him.

It very much drew people into him. Leo. As devout members of the Mormon Church, Jerry and Karma were proud of, more proud of their eldest son's engagement with the faith. The Mormon Church, you say? Yeah. proud of their eldest son's engagement with the faith. The Mormon Church, you say? Yeah. I don't know if you caught that.

Ding, ding, ding. But they really liked that he was so involved in the Mormon faith and that he could quote large parts of scripture by the time he was 12 years old. Cool. Neat. Righto. Yeah. Taylor's cousin, Charney Hoffman, said, we lived with them for some time when I was young.

I absolutely loved him. He was very influential in my life and lots of other people's lives. Taylor was very accepting, regardless of the fact that that's not always the case with people who are very religious. Justin Helzer was two years younger than his brother and almost 180 degrees his opposite. So Taylor was outgoing, had that way of drawing people in. Justin was very shy, often aloof, especially when it came to people he didn't know. That's not to suggest that he was like a dick or like unkind at all or like off putting

in any way. He was just very quiet, very reserved. And he didn't have like any of the confidence that it seemed Taylor just exuded. When people would recall Justin, they almost always described him as living in his brother's rather large shadow. That's really sad. Yeah. Author Robert Scott wrote, whereas Taylor seemed to have countless friends in school,

both male and female, Justin had almost none. He was painfully shy around girls and tried not to stick out in class. Now, when the boys were teens, they went to live with Karma's father. So their grandfather, Doyle Sorensen, a man whose Mormon faith was far more rigid than Karma's. Doyle Sorensen is a storybook character. In fact, even some of the most fundamentalist Mormon followers considered his beliefs to be on the fringes of the faith, particularly with regard on hearing the word of God. On one occasion, Doyle claimed, I don't, for some reason, the optics of this just made

me giggle a little bit. Tell me everything. I just have to say. Doyle claimed that he'd seen Jesus Christ on his front lawn. No, that's funny. I just like, why is he on the front lawn? That's funny. That's like, that's just what I got to ask. If I wake up and see Jesus Christ on my front lawn, I'm going to go take a cold shower. That's what I'm saying.

Like, damn. Like, you got to find some kind of leavening here. You got to pinch yourself. And seeing Jesus Christ on the front lawn is definitely some kind of levity here. You got to pinch yourself. And seeing Jesus Christ on the front lawn is definitely a point of levity for me. Did you ask him the night before? Like what? Well, this is what's even crazier. So it wasn't just a vision.

Like it was not a vision. He saw him as a real corporal being on his front lawn. And what's even wilder is like, he didn't just bop in and bop out. Jesus? Yeah, he's several hours. He stood on that front lawn. JC is JC. He's just chillin'. Jesus Christ is just chillin'. He's just chillin'.

And then he disappeared. Okay. Like, poof, or like, just like, walked away? That I don't know. I don't know that. I can't, I can't. You don't know how JC goes? I can't speak to that. But he was hanging out on the front lawn for a couple of hours. He cometh and he goeth. He did cometh and he did goeth. Now, obviously, we can be like,

oh my God, that's funny that he saw Jesus Christ on his front lawn one day. But then it becomes not funny when he has young, impressionable minds that are going to be probably terrified and believe this. Can you imagine if Papa walked in a room and told us Jesus Christ was on the front lawn, I'd be like, well, it's time to call someone.

Well, I don't know what we do here. What do you do? I don't know what the answer to that is. You gotta go to the hospital. Like, okay. No, you gotta go to the hospital. Oh, like, okay. Cool. No, you got to go to the hospital. No, that's when you just go, neat. Neat.

But to the young and impressionable Taylor, Doyle became a significant influence. Yeah. Because remember, he's well-versed in Mormon faith, shenanigans. So he can speak the scripture from memory. He can do it. So he's in this. Like Taylor's really like, so this guy is now influencing him on a daily basis. It's his grandpa. Yeah. He admired his grandfather's commitment to their faith and his spirituality, which that's okay. Like you can admire someone's like, you know, if you're in that.

Absolutely. And he even admired it when it was dismissed or questioned admire someone's like, you know, if you're in that. Absolutely. And he even admired it when it was dismissed or questioned by others, which, you know, that's fine. Okay. And that said, according to Robert Scott, the rigidity of their faith and the high standards set by his grandfather were also a very deep source of anxiety for Taylor. That was the dark part of this.

It's fine to admire someone who, if you have faith or you have spirituality and someone has even more, you can see it's okay to admire them for that. It's when it becomes a source of anxiety that you have these standards set for you that you can't possibly reach, especially as a kid or a teen. So Scott wrote,

Taylor had problems living up to these Mormon ideals. He felt guilty after what he considered sinning, especially if he masturbated. Consumed with guilt, he tried committing suicide at one point. Oh, that's awful. Although it would be many more years before Taylor was formally diagnosed with a mental illness, it was around this time that some members of his family and community did start to notice some strange behavior. So psychiatrist Dr. Douglas Tucker wrote in an assessment, Taylor as early as 14 was experiencing

ideas that were unusual and inappropriate. He was receiving audible messages by the age of 14. Taylor was told he had a gift of revelation, but he didn't know if the messages he was receiving were from God or Satan. That's a lot for a kid to handle. That's very sad. That's a lot to put on a kid. When he was 17 and still ineligible to enlist, Taylor joined the National Guard.

It's unclear whether this was achieved with the permission of his parents or as a result of poor processing on the part of the Guard. But either way, he was accepted into the National Guard and sent to Texas for his initial training period. As is often the case with young people who have been raised in pretty sheltered communities, the transition from a strict Mormon community to a largely secular and adult world of the National Guard was a bit of a culture shock. Yeah, sure. Taken aback by all the swearing, drinking, and sexual activity among his fellow recruits,

Taylor initially tried to preach to them in the hope that his words might convert some of them, or at least help them see the folly of their ways. Some found his words interesting, you know, like, let's just see what he has to say. But most of them were just like, you're being a little bit zealous here, like, let's just see what he has to say. Sure. But most of them were just like, you're being a little bit zealous here. Like, let's tone it down. You're being the narc. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment

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The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Now, once he finished his training with the National Guard and returned home, Taylor decided to take the first step into adulthood that almost all young Mormon men take by going on a mission. Yeah, Jack Barlow. There you go. In the LDS faith, young men mark their transition from child to adult by leaving home to another

part of the country or even another part of the world to preach their values and fundamentals of their beliefs to other people. Mm-hmm. Just not on my door. No. I actually told some to leave the other day. It's true. She did. And then we looked at really good no soliciting signs. It's a no thank you for me. Until very recently, this process meant the individuals would be cut off from their families and their home cultures for long stretches of time until the mission came to an end and they returned home.

I think they're typically like two years. Are they really? I think at least the one Jack Barlow went on. There you go. That's a house swabs of Salt Lake City in case you were wondering. I was. I knew Barlow was one of those. Baby Gorgeous.

Well, Baby Gorgeous is Henry, but I digress. Now in Taylor's case, he was sent to Brazil to serve his mission. In his diary, Taylor wrote, when I arrived, I felt equal parts excited and overwhelmed. Excited simply because I was anxious to serve on a mission, but nervous because you're a little out of your element. It's a new experience and you're a long way from home. Despite his apprehension, Taylor settled in pretty quickly to his new environment and found that, like he had been back in California, he was very popular with the other young men

serving their missions in Brazil. One missionary later said, I very much enjoyed working with him. He seemed to have a genuine care for the people. I felt that he was particularly effective in teaching. People seemed to like him and he had a very, very capable manner about him." Cool. It was true that Taylor found some success in Brazil, but at the same time, his symptoms of his mental illness appeared to have worsened during this period. Some people described his preaching and interpretation of scripture as manic,

often going off on tangents. According to fellow missionary, Jonathan Taylor, he would, trying to discern thoughts beyond the surface of meaning is what he would do. He would also go several nights without sleeping, staying up all night to read from the Book of Mormon and analyze the text. And Jonathan Taylor, that fellow missionary said,

it wasn't long before others started noticing a difference in Taylor's demeanor. Jonathan said the changes in Taylor were fairly abrupt. Some of the conclusions and beliefs he began to draw, he'd state them more emphatically. He sensed he had been given additional inspiration to kind of understand how the tenets of the faith connected. So I think he's feeling a little more like I am the word of God. He's treading close to those waters. He was JC on the lawn. Exactly. Now becoming more steadfast and zealous at this point in his beliefs weren't the only thing that the other missionaries were

finding off putting. In addition to his righteous certainty, Taylor's beliefs and worldview had taken a little bit of a darker tone. Jonathan recalls, Helzer dwelled upon certain cataclysmic events in the latter days. He would talk about his opinion that there would be the elimination of technology. Which is like, that, when you hear it like that, you're like, that just sounds like regular theorizing. Now, in addition to his increasingly though

apocalyptic vision of the future, I think it's when it treads into that like manic territory of like doomsday. Like prepare for the absolute worst. Yeah. Taylor had also become increasingly and eventually verbally frustrated with the mission's leadership.

In Taylor's eyes, the mission president was an ineffective leader who lacked the spiritual fortitude to lead them. Now, according to Jonathan Taylor, that fellow missionary, if there were things that he didn't feel were accurate or he didn't agree with them, he kind of dismissed them by saying the church leaders either knew the truth and weren't revealing it, or they didn't know the truth and therefore he was not accountable to them. Oh, he's above the church.

He's going rogue, folks. Upon returning home from his mission, he settled back to life in California and in 1993 he married his high school girlfriend, Anne, much to the disappointment of his brother Justin who was away on his own mission when the wedding took place. Oh, that's really sad. Poor Justin. I know. You can't have a wedding without your brother. Anne told a reporter Justin was hurt that Taylor never consulted him about getting married.

As far as Justin saw it, getting married was a major decision and he couldn't understand why his brother wouldn't at least wait six months until Justin returned so he could go to the wedding. Yeah, all that actually hurts my heart. Yeah. As it turned out, it might have been wise for Taylor and Ann to wait a little longer before getting married. Yeah.

According to Ann, the marriage started to go bad not very long after they returned home from the honeymoon. Oh, that's terrible. They argued all the time. And Ann was endlessly frustrated with the fact that everything always had to be Taylor's way. She said, Taylor had an unrealistic view of the world.

He had never been able to watch television at his parents' home. So in our home, for the first time, he could watch cable television. He would stay up all night and then have to be at work by 6 a.m. He couldn't pull himself away. Oh, that's really scary. It's like when you don't let a kid eat any sugar and then they get to go to a friend's house or like a birthday party and they just gorge themselves on it. It wasn't just cable television that Taylor had become

fixated with. It was everything that he was experiencing for the first time. Having grown up in a very strict religious household, Taylor and his siblings had been denied many of the things most American children experience pretty regularly. You know, sweets, junk food, video games, television. So when he was finally able to access those things as an adult, he had no moderation. Could not moderate what he was doing. Like it was just a fully, full throttle. According to Robert Scott, the one thing Taylor wanted more than anything else

was sex like he saw on porno videos. Which is not real. He had no sex education and no sexual experience, so he didn't seem to understand that what he saw in porn films was a carefully orchestrated fantasy and not at all similar to what relatively ordinary sexual, you know, active adults experience. See, in my opinion, that's why you have to talk about it. Yeah. Earlier.

Because then that's the first thing that he sees. Yeah. Yeah. Scott wrote, he begged his wife for the things he saw, but Anne was not comfortable doing some of the things depicted on those videos. Yeah, porn's crazy. Obviously. Yeah. Porn goes wild. In retrospect, Anne blames many of Taylor's problems and shortcomings on his parents,

particularly his mother, Karma. As far as she could tell, Jerry Helzer was a laid back nice guy while his wife was the more intense of the two. Ruling over the family with the religious fervor she learned from her father. Her father, I was wondering, yeah. Karma treated Taylor as he was the golden child. He could do no wrong. He was deserving of everything he wanted.

That's so dangerous. And Taylor internalized those messages and then he carried them into adulthood. Yeah, that's why he thinks he's a prophet. And it made him very difficult. It made him difficult to be around. It made it difficult for him to interact with people who didn't immediately give in to his literal every whim and demand.

Yeah. Not long after their wedding, Anne's uncle managed to get Taylor a job people who didn't immediately give into his literal every whim and demand. Not long after their wedding, Anne's uncle managed to get Taylor a job with financial investment firm Morgan Stanley. Oh shit. I don't know if you remember in the beginning, but Ivan and Annette were able to save so much money because they worked with a young financial advisor at Morgan Stanley. The way that you just took this shit full circle.

I just want to put that up there. Quirrell. Despite having taken only one semester of college courses and having no experience in financial management, he took to the work pretty easily and was, he was a success. Like he did well. His confidence, his ability to charm people made him popular with clients and pretty fearless when it came to making cold calls and pitching their services. So found his niche.

I mean, being a missionary, I'm sure it was probably easier for him to make those cold calls. Yeah, he's used to doing that stuff. Yeah. Taylor's personal and professional success lasted a few years, but by the mid to late 1990s, things started to change. At work, his boss began noticing that Taylor had taken up smoking and was spending a lot of time in the evening going out to clubs and bars. He had also let his appearance and hygiene slip more and more. As the days went by, he grew his hair long, he didn't do anything to make it presentable,

and most important, he was becoming unreliable. By the summer of 1996, Anne had also begun to notice these changes in Taylor. What he described as testing out the quote, sinning side of life. From what Anne could tell, Taylor felt he had been let down by the Mormon church and led into a life he didn't want and felt he was superior to. A few months later, Taylor and Anne's marriage completely fell apart and she filed for divorce. Taylor continued to just fall apart, essentially,

in the months and years that followed. And in 1998, he was let go from his job at Morgan Stanley. Oh, no. No longer able to maintain a job, Taylor began the process of applying for Social Security Disability, which required him to be evaluated by a psychiatrist. On September 1st, 1998, Taylor was referred to an intensive outpatient program

for individuals whose symptoms and mental illness severely impair their functioning and requires multiple contacts with a social worker and or a psychiatric treatment team, which is pretty intense. It was during the intake process for that program that Taylor was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, type one with manic features. This diagnosis and the need for ongoing intensive treatment qualified Taylor for social security disability payments.

And he was approved in 1998. A year later, Taylor excommunicated from the Morbin Church for his drug use and a lifestyle that was increasingly out of step with the teachings of the church. Oh, so they like kicked him out. Yeah, he was excommunicated. Damn. And that's where we're going to leave you because for part two, we're going to pick

back up where we began. But I wanted to make sure you got a full picture of who Taylor is. I think we have that picture. And what's going on here. Yeah, my wheels are turning upstairs. And I want you to chew on that for a minute. And then part two will take you to the, take you to the thunder. Yeah, the thunder.

Yeah. Okay. The thunder. Well, I guess with that being said, hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it Weird but not so weird that you see JC JC on your front lawn. Hey I'm sorry. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

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