Morbid - Fan Favorite - The Dark Secrets Behind the Wizard of Oz

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

This episode is a fan favorite that was originally published as Episode 281…For this Holiday week, we wanted to bring you a lighter (?) episode, although it’s really not so light at all! Alaina’s kids have gotten super into the Wizard of Oz and so she decided to do dive into the dark happenings during filming. All kinds of atrocities went down and we are pretty confident that you’ll never watch this movie the same! Sorry…. we mean you’re welcome!References: -https://www.amazon.com/Making-Wizard-Oz-Aljean-Harmetz/dp/1613748329/ref=sr_1_2?crid=TWGV0EMUDT2P&keywords=the+making+of+the+wizard+of+oz+book&qid=1637775119&sprefix=the+making+of+the+wiza%2Caps%2C161&sr=8-2" target="_blank" -The Making of the Wizard of Oz By Aljean Harmetz (Be wary that this book is fascinating but uses some outdated language when referencing certain people) Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. It's morbid in the morning. I know, I'm like really holding in a yon right now. You were like ready? And I was like, yeah, go, go, go. Let's do this.

It was like, Billy and Stu. I was like, hit it, hit me. And I did. You did. I did. Can you keep talking for a minute? So you can yawn. Hello, guys.

I don't think we have a whole lot of business to attend to. I think the only thing we wanted to mention was, we were supposed to have our Wilbur show like a couple days ago and that's really sad but that was going to be everyone's like tagging us and all these tweets that you don't know about but you made like a brief appearance back I do but I don't look at anything like I've made a very like you're just tweeting and like scrolling through the timeline I tweet that I leave so I don't see anything people are tagging us and being like oh I'm listening to like old episodes and you guys sound so hopeful and I'm like yeah that's gone

I'm no longer hopeful. Well, we're working on rescheduling the Wilbur. We will let you know any updates as they come along, but we're just being, you know, everything's being super cautious. We're trying to be like we never want to, like we've said before, encourage everybody to gather before it's safe. So we'll let you guys know when we finally decide that that's a good idea. And we'll get it rolling again.

And I promise we will. It's definitely going to happen because trust me, we want you so badly. Oh, my God, so bad. And we'll make it worth your while. We will. We've been like talking about different things we can do to spice up our lives shows. We're very excited. So just keeping an ear out and an eye out for that.

But other than that, I think we can just jump right in. All right. Get right into it. I'm going to do this crazy case that I heard when I first got into true crime. I want to say it was either my favorite murder or and that's why we drink that I heard this case on and I was like, oh, M.G. And you know what? You were mentioning a little bit about this.

this to me. Yeah. And I can't remember, I don't know if I know this case. No, which is shocking. I know, it's funny because this is like a pretty big case and it was like moderately recently. So let's get into it. Let's do this. Kenya Monhe was originally from Honduras, actually. She was 12 years old when she moved to America. And her mom, Maria, was able to move here first. And she met a man named Tony Lee and they like fell in love together and had two more children. So when Kenya was able to join them, she was already a big sister. And I feel like you are walking into this and you're like, okay, like, was she like happy about this? Like, because I feel like typically you would assume that a 12 year old girl with so much change going on around her would push back against it.

Yeah. And like not get along with her stepdad probably. But for this family, that was not the case at all. Oh, that makes me happy. Yeah. Tony explained to Kenya when she moved that like, hey, I'm your stepdad and like you're my stepdaughter. just like explaining the situation. But she stopped him and she said, you're my father and I'm your daughter.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. And they like had a bond from like the second she got here. See, and that was so good of him to not like push that idea on her. Like just kind of let her come to that. Exactly. Like instead of being like, I'm your dad now. And she would be like, no.

But she was like, no, you are. Like I love you. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And her mom was like so excited for her to get to America. Yeah. She set up her whole room. She was, it was like all pink and everything.

Like, and all she would talk about would be like, oh my God, like Kenya's coming soon. Like Kenya's coming soon. Oh, I love this. I love when like a blended family blends so well. I know. I always love those stories. So Tony and Maria remember like how girly Kenya was. Like I said, her whole room was like pink.

She loved makeup. She loved the color pink. She was, she was really like a leader to somebody that wanted to make something of herself. Yeah. She was determined. I love that. And she had. thoughts of becoming a producer or a director, like going to college for that. Yeah. And Tony said,

quote, I often think about where that would have went if it hadn't been cut short. She'd be doing something. That's just the way she was. She'd be doing something. Oh. So she was somebody that, like, definitely had these like cards laid out where she was going to make something of herself. Yeah, you could tell she was on the right trajectory. She really was. So Kenya was 19 years old when she went missing. It was April 1st, 2011. She and her friends headed out for a night in what they called Lodo, which was Lower Downtown. And it was in Denver, which like, I've been to Lower Downtown in Denver. It's like where all the bars and the nightclubs are. It's like a wicked fun time if you're 21. And Tony didn't know it, but Maria and Kenya's little sister Kim knew that just as hardworking

and determined as Kenya was, she also liked to let loose and go out partying with her friend. She worked hard, she partied hard. Hell yeah. They all had fake IDs to get them into the clubs. And they just wanted to dance, you know, probably get a couple of drinks and just have a good time. But they all knew that they needed to stick together. And that's what they'd always done before. Like never let anyone get left behind.

Like always have a buddy. Like they were smart about it. Yeah. But this particular night, they wanted to get into this particular bar called lavish. But Kenya and these two other girls that she was. was with, they weren't able to get into the club because the bouncer spotted the fakes. Of course. So they're like, okay, we'll try to get into like this other club. Okay. So she, Kenya had a usual group of friends that she would go out with. And the two girls that she ended up with,

she actually didn't really know that well. Like she wasn't super close with them. Oh, okay. But she wasn't going to let that ruin her night. And she kind of seemed like someone who could just like adapt and like just like be friends with you on the fly like she needed to. Yeah. So. So she and her acquaintances just headed to a different spot. And these two girls said that Kenya, as soon as they got there, like, they kind of sat down at this table. She left her purse and her cell phone on the table and headed to the dance floor. And she was dancing with like this random guy that they didn't know until about one in the

morning. Okay. And everyone was like, okay. But like I said, she left her purse and cell phone at the table with them. And then suddenly she just disappeared and nobody knew where she was. Oh, panic. Mm-hmm. Now, Janet Gomez was Kenya's best.

best friend and she'd been worried about Kenya and trying to get in touch with her all night because she knew that like she didn't really know these girls well and she was like I just hope that she's having a good time like yeah and she said that whenever they went out Kenya would call her the next morning and they'd just kind of like talk about the shenanigans of the night before yeah but that morning kenya didn't call so one of the friends that she had been with called and asked janet hey are you with Kenya and Kenya was like no I thought you were with her or janet was like, no, yeah, sorry, Janet was like, I thought you were with her, like. Oh, no. So obviously something was wrong. Now, at this point, all of Kenya's friends are calling her, texting her. She had a

boyfriend. He was trying to get in touch with her. He was the one that ended up calling her sister and, like being like, your sister's missing. Like, you haven't heard from her. And the sister's obviously, like, no. And now Tony's trying to track Kenya down too because this is just getting scary and scarier and just like very out of character to not be able to get in touch with her. Yeah, you always, there's always, you know, the type of person, you know what I mean, that this person is? So it's like, you know when you can't get in touch with a certain person that you're like, no, no. And there's certain people that you're like, yeah, if you can't get in touch with them, you're like, whatever. Yeah, she'll text me in three days. She'll get me in three days. Like, it's totally fine,

like those type of people. But when you know the person is so reliable and so connected, always texts back or calls back. That panic happens as soon as you can't get in touch with them. And especially when it's your child's. Yeah. Can't imagine. Oh, I can't. So Tony actually had an appointment that morning. So he left to work, went to his appointment.

And then he called his job and was like, yeah, I can't come back in today. Yeah. And instead, he dedicated the day to finding Kenya. At one point or another, the girls that she had been with the previous night, they stopped by to give her parents, her phone and her purse. But they were like, they didn't tell the truth because they didn't want to out themselves as like going out the night before. Yeah.

So Tony's like calling. all the friends being like what like what happened last night and everyone's being like really shady about it and not giving him any clear. Guys, all right. You got to you got to just. I know it's like you're not thinking the worst, but it's like sometimes you got to think the worst. Well, that's the thing.

So eventually he got it out of them. Good. That like they had been partying that night. Yeah. So Tony was like, what? Like what do you mean you were partying? Like that's not Kenya. Like she doesn't do that.

So he talked to Maria, her mother and Kim. And they were like, yeah. Yeah, like Kenya's been doing this for a little while. Like, she, we know that she has like a fake ID. So he was pissed at first. He was like, I didn't know anything about this. But then I was watching like some interviews with him on like oxygen and date line and stuff. And at some point or another, he was like, honestly, I was doing the same thing when I was

her age. Which is probably why he was so pissed. Yeah. Because you always get pissed probably when your kid does what you did. Oh, yeah, 100%. Because you're like, no, you're supposed to know better than me. Right. Exactly.

But, you know, this was just like one of those like coming up. of age things because it wasn't like she was partying and ignoring her responsibilities. She was focused and determined at the same time and also having a little teenage fun. She was 19. Yeah. Like you're 19. This is a very normal. Yeah. It's just for a parent not fun. Yeah. Like did I have a fake ID when I was 19? A hundred million percent. Did Elena made me cut it up? Make me cut it up? A hundred percent. Did I have a backup? 100 percent. So I get this, you know? I never got a fake ID.

That's so funny. I never had one. I mean, mine never really worked anywhere. I think I was just, like, excited to have one. You just wanted to have one. I also, like, never needed one, really because we didn't, we didn't really try to get in anywhere other than, like, comedy clubs with our fakes. And my dumb butt had one from Rhode Island, which was where we would go to comedy clubs.

So they'd be like, that's not a real ID. Like, that's no. No. But anyways. The whole day went by. Nothing of substance really came through. The family contacted the police, but at that point, they were like, it's too soon to really, like, actually go full-fledged missing person on this because she hasn't been missing that long. I hate that.

And she's 19, so. I know. It's a lot of complications here. Yeah, it sucks. So they're kind of just like, all right, like, are we going to go to bed? Like, without our daughter? Like, where do we go from here? So then around 7 o'clock at night, there's a text on Kenya's phone from a number that she didn't have saved.

And the text said, hey, this is Travis, the guy who gave you a ride last night. White creepy van, winky face. Did you get your car home okay? No. No, I don't like that. So Tony immediately called the number, but it went to voicemail. And he, like, kept calling and calling and calling. And finally this guy called him back.

And his name was Travis, Travis Forbes. He had seen Kenya walking by herself. He said that she looked really drunk, so he offered her a ride home. She hopped in his white van. and then asked him if he would stop at the gas station because she wanted a pack of cigarettes. So he told Tony that he like stopped at the gas station for her. And when she got out of the car, she started speaking in Spanish to this other man that was at the gas station. And then they linked arm in arm and walked away into the night.

And she told him like, I don't need a ride anymore. I don't believe that. No, it's just a very specific story. Whenever there is, it's always the detail. The devil is in the detail. Yes. And sometimes there's just too much. detail. Too many details there. They like Darm and arm. They spoke Spanish to each other. Like it's,

it's just too much. It's like when you call out of work and you're like, I woke up at 4.28 p.m. And like, or 428 a.m. and like started throwing up. And then I woke up again at five. And, you know, I was here last week. So like maybe I had some bad sushi there or like maybe last week I got a cold. But either way, I don't think I'm going to be able to come in today. But I bet I'll be fine to come in tomorrow. It's literally that is always like, no. That's how you know you're lying. Because you're manager is always like, you could just say you're sick. Like you're sick and you're not coming in today. You don't even tell me what's going on. Like now I know that you're probably hung over or like you're going somewhere else today. Yeah. It's always, whenever somebody gives that much detail, you at least question. In these instances, I feel like you always have to question a little bit. Yeah, for sure. Because who remembers that much too? Even the night before. I don't remember that much detail of things. No, I was literally with your ass last night. And I was. And I was. I don't remember like much of it. No.

So, yeah, that's already shady, shady, shady. I barely know what I had for breakfast like the same day. Literally. Like at dinner time, if you were like, what'd you have for breakfast today? I'd be like, uh, well. Yeah, because really, like, we think of these things where people would be like, yeah, I don't remember. And you're like, you don't remember.

In these cases, we're always like, what? Yeah, right? But then we immediately are like, yeah, you know what? I don't remember what I did last week. Yeah. And especially when you add like a high pressure situation to it, you're like, it makes sense that you don't remember. And when you're not, like, if he was really telling the truth and he just dropped this girl off,

what would, what would, like, you know, compel him to remember all these details? Because nothing weird is happening. So you're not going to commit as many details to memory because you're not really observing much. And it's also like, at what point? You would just be like, yeah, she left with some other guy. That was it. Like, you wouldn't have a, like, very detailed account of it because you weren't thinking something bad was going to happen. Right.

And then the weird thing to me was I was like, at what point did he get her phone number? Yeah. Because he did get her phone number because remember her friends had her phone. Yeah. But I'm like how did like I'm like did he? And obviously he's texting her phone. I don't know. Like did she give it to him? Like I don't, I don't know if he just like looked it up or like. Yeah. But then it's like 2011 like you I don't know. That's very interesting actually. Isn't it? Huh. You're right. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I was like there's just really. no way of knowing. Yeah, because her phone wasn't with her. Yeah, it's very interesting. Because I was going to say, like, it's not like he could just, he could text it from her phone. Right, exactly. Hmm. I don't know.

It was just weird. Weird. So, uh, Travis actually said to Tony over the phone, I'm pretty close to the gas station where we stopped last night. Do you want to meet me there? And I'll like show you where I dropped her off just so, like, you know, where she like last was seen. Yeah. You know, and you'd probably take that as like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like, this guy's going to help me out. Yeah. So I think Tony was like where you were at. So he agreed. But Maria was really concerned about this entire situation. She was like, something's not right about this. Like he's, why is he being so helpful? And why does he want you to come out to this gas station at night? There's a line. It's weird. But it's hard to tell in the moment. And it's hard to tell like a father. Like, no, don't go track down your, like the last place your kid was. And he's just looking for any help he can

right now and this guy seems like he wants to hope right so she couldn't stop him he did grab a nine millimeter pistol to take with him like in case he needed it i get it i get it 100% and he headed out the door to meet this mystery man now maria was way too worried about this entire thing she was like nope this something is very off about this so she called 911 and told them where tony was headed and was like he's like he's going to meet this guy that saw my daughter last night my daughter like they knew what was going on. She's like, I just want to like... She's like, I just want to make sure that this is like a safe situation.

Wow, good for her. That's really smart and like really proactive. Absolutely. So they sent a cruiser out to the gas station. Now, once the cops got there, Travis reiterated the same story that he had told Tony twice now to a T. No details changed. Yeah.

Which is weird. And the cops for sure thought even like not the fact that just not only the fact that the story didn't change, but just the story itself, they were like, that's weird. Yeah. But like, you can't hold somebody for being weird. No. Yeah, you can't. So that's, it's a good thing and a bad thing.

Yeah. So they were like, okay. So like, we're going to keep an eye on this guy and like, see if he does anything else that's weird that like maybe we can get him on. Yeah. Right now, there's nothing we can do. So they're wrapping things up. And Travis says to Tony, quote, I wish I could have done more.

I promised I would take care of her. I feel responsible for this. And he's saying this to Tony while he's like crying. No. Tony's like he was crying and it was weird. And it's like I promised to take care of her. Like you didn't know her. Yeah.

No. And then the other thing that Tony was bothered by was that there was no way that Kenya was going to, this guy drove a white van. Yeah. As he said himself, a creepy white van. A creepy white fan. And he was like Kenya would never have gotten into a white van. No. In the middle of the night.

Like there's no way. No, not many of us would. No. So Tony was like, you know what? Like, thanks for your help. And he goes to shake Travis's hand. And that's when the bizarreness of this all really hit him. He said the second that he took Travis's hand into his, it was like there was an earthquake

under Travis's feet. And his hand was like shaking like crazy. Because he knew I'm shaking the hands of this woman's father who I, whatever happened, happened. Well, and it's so funny that you say that because Tony shook his hand. later said, quote, I knew I was shaking the hand of the last person that seen Kenya alive. There was no doubt in my mind. Oh, no father. No father should ever have to feel that. And it's just like, that is just human instinct. Like, oh yeah, you know. A father's instinct, yeah, there's just, like, I think that a lot of parents are very, like, very in tune with their

children. And even like, like, like step-parent or not, yeah, he was her father. You know her father. You know, like he stepped in and was her father. Right. And it's like you have a bond with a child like that. I feel like you just, it gives you some sense. A bad situation. Yeah, you just get,

you get those like spidey senses. Yeah. Yeah. No, you definitely do. Guardian senses. Like if you love a child, I don't even think it's just parents. No.

Because I feel that way too. Like I was going to say, because you probably feel that way with the girls. Like I think we were, I forgot what we were talking about the other day, but it's like I can tell if like something's off with one of them. Oh yeah. Like you can definitely.

So the police were able to look up Travis back at the station. And he had a pretty significant rap sheet. It was mostly just for drugs and domestic violence, unfortunately. But they wanted to find out more about this guy. And they found out that he was renting space at a local bakery where he made his gluten-free granola bars. Okay. This guy is, we love an earthy, crunchy criminal. I mean, I love a granola bar. Yeah. So. I also love gluten. So like. I was going to say, but I really love gluten. I mean, some people can't love gluten. Yeah, and I'm sorry about that because, oh, man. Celiac disease sounds terrible. If you have that, my, my heart is with you because, holy. It's like, it can be like debilitating. Yeah, it's not just you get sick. It's like,

oh, no, it's like, yeah. I mean, I have like stomach problems just like in general, but to all my celiac people, I'm, we feel for you. We love you. But so they head out to the bakery where you guys probably wouldn't be, to ask him some questions. And he gave them the exact same story that he perfected by this point. Nothing wavered. Nothing wavered. This is not, this is not right. Now, something that they noticed about him, though, was that he was a talker. And he definitely was the kind of guy that loved to play hero. He said, quote, if she made the choice to go back home or to get in my van, I would have taken her home. And if I felt a weirdness about her walking off with that guy, I would have, I would have done something.

No, you wouldn't. And it's like with them, why didn't you? Like, he looks like someone who, I just looked them up. Oh, yeah. I always have to see. He has such a punchable face. He has one of those faces that he's like, here I am to save the day. Yeah, like he just looks like, I'm a great guy.

Yeah. Yeah. So going with that feeling was something, that something was off with the earthy, crunchy superhero pretender. They got a search warrant for his van. They're like, yeah, cool that you make your gluten-free. granola bars, but there's something weird of you. So there's some weird happen in here.

Yeah, so they get a search warrant for the van, and the second they open the doors, they are like smacked across the face with the scent of bleach. They said it reeked of bleach in there, and one of the investigators said there was so much bleach used in the van that you could still see, like, the drip marks where, like, he had clearly used so much of it that it, like, pulled together and dripping down. Yeah. And they also noticed. Smelling bleach must be that like opening that van and getting like, oh yeah.

That feeling that those investigators must have is just like, oh shit. Because it's also like she's just missing right now. Yeah. And it's like when you get that smell of bleach, you're like, oh, we got a lot. We're dealing with something else. It's like that must drop your heart right into your toes. A hundred percent. And they also noticed that there was like,

carpet in the back of the van, which was just kind of, I mean, like, whatever, but it was just like a little weird. Adding on to everything else, I feel like the carpet is like, huh? Yeah, like, and I think it was like new. Like it was like a newer carpet. And when he called it a creepy van, a creepy white van out of his own mouth. Yeah. And then he has a carpet in there. Yeah. I feel like that's, no. They also noticed that they checked the tires and they noticed that he had definitely driven down some kind of dirt road recently, which was weird because he had told them that he had just been out delivering his granola. And he was, of bars. Of course. And his girlfriend confirmed that. She was like, oh, yeah, like, that's what he was doing.

And she actually, she later served jail time, like, for lying to the authorities, which I was glad. Yeah. And, like, trying to, like, fuck with an investigation. Yeah. And, like, somebody's life. Yeah, literally. So, but the even weirder thing was that his cell phone pinged a tower near Keensburg, which is about 30 miles east of Denver, and not on the delivery route. that he gave to the police. Like, it was not his delivery route. You're like, where were you delivering garden? And 30 miles is like, it's quite a bit of miles.

It's about an hour away, I would say. It's definitely a good little detour. Yeah, I think when I looked it up, it was like 45 minutes to an hour away from Denver. Now, back at the bakery, some shady shit was going on. So like, shady shit just kind of seems to be surrounding Travis. Yeah. Someone was clearly taking money from the register. So the owner of the bakery, Monica Poole, went to her office to check the,

surveillance tapes, but someone had unplugged them. Huh. So she was like, clearly whoever did this wasn't like super duper smart because if you did this, you are caught on the surveillance coming in to unplug the tapes. Like cool if you don't unplug the tape so we don't totally get you doing whatever the fuck you're doing. But like, miss this little part. Yeah, huge, huge part of the equation is that I can see you on camera. And now you have to explain why you unplug the fucking camera. Yeah, and not only do you need to explain that, but like, you should probably explain to me why you were wearing yellow cleaning gloves when you walked into my office. Yeah, you should definitely explain that. Yeah, like you walked into unplug the surveillance camera with yellow rubber cleaning gloves.

Yeah, like, what the fuck is up, Travis? You're going to have to have a pretty good, he sounds real good at spinning like a very compelling narrative so far. Oh, yeah. I'm very interested to see what he has to say about that. Well, the other thing, too, is that, like, he's one of those people that I think he's just like, oh, well, like, people will trust me. Like, people will, like, listen to what I say. You can see, because when I looked him up, I was like, okay, like, he is conventionally has, like, handsome features. You know what I mean?

So I can understand how he could smooth talk you. He could get people to trust him. Uh-huh. Like, he does have, like, a look about him that's, like, when you know what you know now, you're like, makes sense. You know what I mean? but when you first saw him, if he was a nice person, nothing would ring weird to me. No, and I was thinking about that too, because in these situations, I'll look up somebody and be like, oh, like, would I fall for their shit?

Exactly. And I looked him up and I was like, if he tried to, like, buy me a drink in a bar, I'd probably be like, oh, like, what a nice guy. Yeah. And if he's being a nice person, like I chat him up. He sounds like somebody who is able to put on airs and is able to put on like a nice, oh, I just want to help people. And I'm just a gluten-free baker. That's just who I am.

I'm just out here with the Quaker Outsman. I'm just out here baking granola bars. That's me. Look at my pretty blue eyes. And it's like I think people, he could smooth talk a lot of people. Oh, 100%. So I think he is one of those people that's like, well, people have probably believed him for a lot of his life. He's been able to smooth over these situations that he's gotten himself into a lot.

So I get why people around him weren't immediately like ringing all the bells. Oh yeah, totally. But at this point, you see somebody walk into your office with the yellow. fucking cleaning gloves and she knew. Monica knew that he like had like been related to Kenya like the disappearance because the next day he came into work and was like, oh, I drove this girl like I was going to drive her home and then this happened and now she's missing. And the lady was like, oh, like that's weird. But like she didn't think like, oh, you fucking killed her. Like. Yeah. Because again, she was like, oh, but then she sees him with yellow gloves and I have to applaud her.

she called the police right away. She didn't even ask him. She was like, nope, bye. Good for her. Because it's like that brings it to a whole different level. Oh, 100%. That's a weird thing. So the cops come and they go find more surveillance

because they're like all of the stuff that he unplugged, there was other surveillance in different parts of the bakery. It's not just all in one place. Yeah, it's not just like whoop. It's not just like, whoop. Yeah, it doesn't shut the whole system down. Like some of the cameras are on other systems.

Of course. So luckily, he didn't get those ones turned off. because the cops found surveillance of him in a different part of the bakery with his granola cooler, which is like, his granola cooler. No, I'm dead serious. Like, you just have a granola cooler. I mean, as one does. If you are a granola baker, I imagine you do. How could you not? It just sounds silly. It sounds ridiculous. Now, that would be one thing, because, like, he's a granola baker. He has a granola cooler. Cool. Yeah. The cooler was taped shut with black duct tape. So usually you probably don't do that while storing the gluten freeze. No, I mean, I don't ever expect my granola to get out of the freezer, so I wouldn't have to tape it.

Well, and usually you wouldn't put your granola in the freezer, right? No, no, I wouldn't think so. Doesn't need to be frozen. Doesn't. Weird, though, because he used this, like, little cart thing and loaded his granola cooler into the freezer. And Monica sent to the authority, she was like, nope, he never uses the freezer because granola bars don't need to be frozen. So I don't know what he was in there doing. Now upon further search of the bakery, they also found a burnt barrel outside that Monica told them was her grease barrel.

Like she threw like the grease in there from like the friars or whatever. Yeah. But this was like a badly burnt barrel. This was not burned from grease. So they were like, yeah, we're going to send this out for testing. Like this was lit on fire. This was. Like the grease was lit on fire.

Absolutely lit on fire. But they're, so they sent it out for testing. But it was so badly burnt that nothing came back. Oh, that's unfortunate. Now, I don't know what the hell it is about all these criminals that when they're starting to unravel, they head to TV. They're like, that'll fix things. Oh, of course. Like, I should go talk to a news station.

I should get in front of as many people as I possibly can. Yeah. So that my face definitely betrays what's happening. In my body, yeah, 100%. I just keep saying, I'm like 100%. 100%. Like, yes. Conclusive.

You pass the test. Confirmed. It's like some kind of club, though, where like they make that step. But like, just like some of the other monsters we've talked about, Travis goes on this local news station and makes it an absolute fool of himself. So the reporter asks him, did you kill her? Did you sexually assault her? And he said, I didn't. No.

And then he makes a comment about, I didn't get the direct quote, but he said, it's really stressful having that energy on you. Having that energy on you? That's very, that makes sense. It's very, that's very, you know. It's very, I live, granola baker. I live in Denver and I make gluten-free granola bars and I'm all about good energy. That's gluten-free granola baker vibes.

That's the energy that he gives. Yeah, 100%. It's also like sage isn't going to get rid of the fact that you're a fucking monster. You're not going to sage that energy away, man. And also it's very stressful to have that energy on you. What about her family? Well, that's the thing. They have some pretty gnarly energy that they're working with right now, too.

It's their fucking loved ones. Exactly. is their daughter. Jesus. And his body language throughout this interview, you can find it on like YouTube or something, showing a ton of nervousness. He kept rubbing his eye with the back of his hand, which was just like, it's just like, hi, I'm super nervous right now.

Like, because it wasn't like he rubbed his eye once. It was like continuously happened. Yeah. And then if that wasn't enough, he forgets Kenya's name during the interview. Oh, come on. It's like, no, dude. Come on. And he says, he goes, what was her name again?

No. What's her name again? And the reporter's like, yeah, it's Kenya. Yeah, that's trying too hard to distance yourself from this whole thing. Yes. When you were not too long ago being like, I promise to protect her. Well, that's the thing. It's like, no, no.

You felt all this guilt about not being able to get her home safely. The police are clearly interested in you. Yeah. This young girl's been all over the news. And also, you shook her father's hand not that long ago. Yeah, no. And now you don't know her name? I don't buy it.

No, I'm not buying what you're selling, including the granola bars. So then, after he makes that appearance, he pretty much just falls off the face of the earth. Like, they lose him. And they're like, well, shit. Shocked. No one knows where he is. No one knows what's going on. And then all the way in Texas, there's this report of a stolen car.

Now, a woman told the police in Texas that her friend, her old friend Travis, borrowed her car and never came back with him. it. But because he was all the way in Austin with a store, or I didn't mean to say, but, because he was all the way in Austin with a stolen car, the police wondered whether or not he was headed for Mexico. Because like the route that you take, it's like you're pretty much just like, if you head down from Denver and you're headed toward Texas, it's like you're pretty much looking like you're headed toward Mexico. Like where else you go? Especially if you're criminal. Now they were like- Especially if you're a granola baker, you're not, where else are you going? Obviously. Come on. Like, got to make the business worldwide. So at that point,

He's a flight risk. So they're like, yep, we're going to arrest you. We're going to extrad you back to Colorado. They had him booked. They get a warrant for his DNA. They're able to get his DNA. They're on it. Yes.

Unfortunately, though, they are on it. But his friend who reported the stolen car wouldn't believe that he was up to anything bad. So she dropped the charges. No, come on. And I saw in some sources that she was a friend. And then I saw in some sources that she was an old girlfriend. Either way.

It's like, come on, he stole your car. Regardless of what he did with it, he stole your car. Like, no. That's bad. No. That's bad news bears. When someone steals your car, we call the police, we keep the charges. I got to get, I'm glad that the investigation here is though, like, the investigation side is like, they're on it.

And just wait, because you'll be really happy. And I actually, like, have it in my notes how happy I was. We love to be able to, like, applaud an investigation. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Named the episode 100 percent. I don't know why I can't stop saying it.

We really should. early. And I couldn't have coffee because that's all I got. I have heartburn. L.O.L. Not pregnant. So with that, he was free to go, but they were not going to let him disappear like that again. They were keeping surveillance on him for as long as they were able to, but he wasn't doing anything because he probably knew that they were keeping surveillance on him. So he's keeping a low profile, if you will. So they can't invest all their time in like people on their team on that when other unlawful things are happening. Like you can't spend all your energy on one thing if nothing is coming of it. Yeah. So they eventually had to stop. Yeah. Or like slow down a little. At least, yeah. Yeah. And with that,

he starts hanging out in Fort Collins. Now, Fort Collins is a college town in Colorado, similar to the downtown area in Denver, where Kenya went missing. In 2018, it was actually named the second safest city in Colorado. Wow. But then when I Googled it, again, like different Google searches show different things. It said it wasn't super safe. Oh, all right. Yeah, it was conflicting. But July 4th is a busy time in any American city with all the fireworks and the celebrating going on. It's like a huge crazy time. And especially in Fort Collins with all the college kids roaming around, it's like a good time. Now, the morning of July 5th, 2011 put a quick stop to all the previous days celebrating. Uh-oh. A young woman named Lydia Tillman's apartment was absolutely

engulfed in flames. Now Lydia escaped the fire by jumping out of a second story window. Damn. Yeah. But this wasn't a freak accident because whoever set this fire was the same person who raped Lydia, savagely beat her, left her with a shattered jaw, a broken wrist, broken ribs, and then doused not only her apartment, but her body in bleach, set a match and walked away. And in bleach. bleach. Uh-huh. Wow.

So when the ambulance, now this is like the biggest bad bitch energy that anyone has ever brought to the world. When the ambulance arrived on scene, Lydia, who suffered all those injuries and like I said, jumped out of a fucking two-story window, got up and ran into the ambulance. Wow. Yes. And they asked her if she knew the person who had done all of this to her and she was able to tell them, no, no, no, no.

But then as soon as she was like settled in the ambulance. ambulance, she had a massive stroke. And as soon as she got to the hospital, she was put into a medically induced coma. Oh, my God. And she spent the next five weeks in that coma. Holy shit. Yes. However, they were able to get DNA from underneath her fingernails. Yes. Because she desperately fought off her attacker. Hell yes. And they sent it out for testing. Wow. Now, like I said, a couple minutes ago. This is one of those cases where you get super happy that the police departments are able to work together because you said it, bleach. The investigators in Fort Collins remembered that a huge part of the Kenya Monhe case was the overwhelming smell of bleach in the van. And in Lydia's case,

bleach played a massive role as well. Yeah. So the investigators were able to connect with one another, and they together were almost positive that Travis Forbes was responsible for not only Kenya's disappearance at this time, but also the Lydia Tillman assault. And not even assault, excuse me, attempted murder. Attempted murder. And yeah. Yeah. And this is him laying low.

No, that was before. He was laying low for like a couple months. But that's what I mean. It's like, Jesus. I think it was about five weeks after the attack. That's insane though. Or the attack happened five weeks after. Like you have all this stuff on you about the Kenya case.

And you know you did it. You know they're going to catch you. And you do this shit? Well, that's the thing. And you love. And you light an apartment on fire? But that's the thing. It's like,

these criminals just think that they are so much smarter. They do. And you're not going to leave anything behind. And it's like, he didn't think that she was as strong as she was and going to jump out the window. That's what it is. He thought he left her for death. They don't think they're victim. They underestimate their victims.

Mm-hmm. So hard. And Lydia Terman was like an amazing, is an amazing woman. She was a Somali. Oh, fuck. Like, she was super talented, like very well. established. That's what it is. Super intelligent. These dumbasses underestimate their victims. Oh, 100%.

They 100% do every time. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So, yeah, that's going on. So they start keeping tabs on Travis again. They're like, yeah, let's go check out at Fort Collins and sure enough he's there. So there's this particular night where he's just walking up and down the streets of Fort Collins where like a ton of bars and nightclubs are. And it seemed like he was on the prowl. Like he was hunting. Oh my God. And the weird thing was that he was just like holding a bottle of whiskey walking up and down the street, but not going into any of the buildings. Very chill. Like super weird. Very casual. So an officer just decided he was like, I'm going to stop him and I'll ask what his name is. Like, you know. Just to see. What's up? So Travis Kennedy was the name he gave. Which to jury says that's a lie. I was going to say. Survey says that's a lie. Let's just go back real quick. That's not his name. No. That's not my name. That's not it. So the officer lets him go.

He's like, all right. Thanks. Bye, Travis Kennedy. Have a good day. But then they realized that he's trailing this young girl who appears to be pretty drunk. So they snag him and they arrest him for false reporting. Because they're like, he was literally about to do this right again in front of us. He was going to do it in front.

Like, he got stopped by a cop and he was like, yeah, that's fine. So ballsy. So ballsy. It's just so like delusional. I mean, look at Ed Kemper. He got stopped by the cops and he had a fucking body in his backseat. Yeah, they just. they think they can do it. It's insane. That mindset. Sometimes they do get away with it,

unfortunately. That's what's sad. So the other unfortunate thing is that they couldn't keep him in long once they got him because false reporting is not exactly murder. So this just, everything came together to work out because literal minutes before he was going to be released on Bond, the lab where the DNA found underneath Lydia's fingernails was, like, that's like the last, where they were sent out. As soon as he was about to be released on bail, they get a call from the lab. And sure enough, the DNA is a match to Travis Forbes. I was literally staring at you like, don't you dare tell me this is a new?

Oh my God. Isn't that net? So literally he's about to be released and they're like, yep, like 100% he attacked Lydia Tillman. That's movie shit. Like as he's about to be released, they're like, ding, ding, ding. Hello. They take the phone call and they're just, and they're looking at him through the glass.

Right. talking on the phone and then they just hang up the phone. And I just love that he probably thought he was leaving. Like he was like, oh, like, he probably was like, oh, they got, they thought they got me again. Yeah, I'm going to leave. And they're like, oh, get ready to to get going, Travis. And then they're like, Travis, Travis, you're going to be staying a little longer. You are under arrest for the attempted murder of Lydia Tillman.

Yes. And he's like, well, shit. Well, shite. So when word got back to Kenya's family, Tony said, quote, tell him we got just one. question, where is Kenya? Yes. That's what I want to know. Now, Tony called the DA and he was like, make a fucking deal with him. Like, make a deal with him. Tony. He was like, I don't care what kind of charge he gets. He literally, he was like, I don't care if it's a manslaughter. I need to know where my daughter is and what happened to my daughter. That like rips my heart out of him. Yeah. And he,

she has a little brother and a little sister. And they don't, they don't. Family deserves to know. Deserves to know and like, deserves to be able to explain that to their children. Like, God. And like, her little sister Kim was on a dateline, I believe, and she was like, I thought that she was like in a basement somewhere, like, and the kidnappers weren't letting her go. And it's like, imagine being a little girl thinking that your older sister is like in someone's basement somewhere. You're just going to sleep every night thinking, I don't know what's happening for her? And you're like, what if that happens to me? Of course. What if it's just so scary. It's a living nightmare. Absolutely. Absolutely. So Detective Nash Goulet is the only one who Travis wanted to talk to.

Nash was the one working the case from the start in Denver. So he went to talk to Travis and just straight up asked him. He was like, what do you want from this? Because Travis is like dicking everybody around. He won't talk to anybody. He'll only talk to Nash. So Nash is like, what do you want? Like, what can we do for you to tell us?

So basically he was like, dude, you're already going to prison for a long time. Can you just budge and tell us what happened to Kenya? And finally, after like close to two months of lies, Travis looked at Nash and told him, I want to go to prison without being labeled a sex offender. I hate that. Like, that's all you wanted. I hate that so much. Yeah.

He needs to go to prison. He needs to be labeled a sex offender. Right. Because he knows that sex offenders don't do well in prison. Of course he does. He was like, I'm going to get my ass kicked the second I get there. And it's like, you deserve it. 100%.

100. Oh, it makes me so angry. Yes. So then what is making, what would make you so angry is he, so Nash was like, so Nash was like, okay. Because right now they just need Kenya. Right. And he has Tony's blessing to make a deal.

So he's like, okay. He probably didn't want to. Of course not. He's like, we got to figure this out. So he's like, okay. So then Travis pulls on the deal. He's like, never mind. Are you?

So they're like, are you fucking kidding me? So then they're scrambling to figure out what to do next. And Travis calls back and he, you know, like doesn't call back. But whatever. He picks up the phone. He's like, hello. Connect me to Nash, please. But he's like, actually, you know what?

Like, it's fine. Like, it's back on the table. How they didn't punch his stupid face. Because I'd be like, you're fucking with us. Literally. This isn't fucking funny. Like, we're talking about a woman who has a family and people who love her. And it's just, like, out somewhere.

Like, nobody knows where she is. And she has siblings. Like, give them closure, man. When these people won't give these families closure, that's so fucked up. That's such a different level of evil that I just can't, you can't eat, like, psychology can't even comprehend that. It's another. crime. It is. It's a totally another crime. Yeah, it really is. Because it's holding the family hostage forever.

Literally. It's like a whole other set of crimes. Yeah, it really is. It's, that's exactly what it is. So he pulled back, he changes his mind a couple times. And then finally he's like, yeah, like back on the table. Just make it so I don't go to prison as a sex offender. So he gives a complete confession and he agrees to bring them to Kenya's body. Now, in turn, he wouldn't go to jail, labeled a sex offender. And in addition, they took the death penalty. And, he took the death penalty. off the table. Which, you know. So he takes them. That one, I'm like, all right, whatever. Yeah, I wish that he had gone to jail label

to sex offender because he raped both of these girls. I think, like, I can totally get behind taking the death penalty off the table. Yeah. Sure. Because I think I mentioned in a previous episode, I'm starting to, like, stray away from it. It's, starting to stray away from, yeah, I'm learning more. I'm, like, starting to evolve in that. I'm still a little bit in a gray area, but I tilt more towards I'm against it now.

Really? Yeah, I'm like tilting more into that. I think it's doing this podcast. It's kind of like help me. I could see that. I'm still very much in the middle. Yeah, I definitely am like not fully, but I'm leaning more turns against. And so I can like get behind taking that off the table.

That's the thing. With certain people I can definitely get behind taking it off the table. It's an emotionally charged thing, which I think has made me think more that it's probably not a good thing. Yeah, because you want everything to be black and white and law. And it's like, I do think it's just I'd rather tilt. more towards against it and have them suffer. I don't know if this is like wrong to say, but I almost feel like it should be up to the family. Yeah, it kind of like, well, that's where you can't do that.

That's where my problem is because it's like, I want the family to get what they want out of it, but that is so emotionally charged that it takes away any kind of logic. And it's just like you can't do that. It's like. So it's hard. It's hard. But so in this case, it's like, yeah, I can get behind taking away the death penalty. I'll like let him suffer in prison. Yeah. But if he's going to suffer in prison. Let him be able to sex offender because that's what he is. Right. He is. That's absolutely what he is. So luckily he was, he did take them to Kenya's body. Like he didn't dick them around anymore. And he buried her body, lo and behold, in Keynesburg. Now remember, that's where his cell phone pined in the beginning of the cell. Yeah. And he was like, oh, I was just delivering granola bars.

Now, this is just like spine chilling, like, just bizarre. He's, so he gets out of the cop car and there's like a couple investigators there with him and he steps out and before he points them in the direction of where he buried her he lets out like the one of the investigators described it as like an animalistic like scream what he gets out and screams and they're basically like in the middle of nowhere oh and then he just points them in the direction of where she was buried screams and then points where she is yes oh my gosh Like, that's... It's like the end of like a freaking criminal minds episode.

That's really uncomfortable. I don't like that at all. That's unsettling. It's just bizarre. That's very unsettling. There's no other way to describe that than just fucking bizarre. What the fuck? It's so strange.

That's so strange. That's what that is. It's 100% performance. He is. It's him acting like, oh, he, you can tell he's a, he loves the theater. Because for him to get out and do that, that's him acting like, I'm just so upset. I'm so overwhelmed being here. I have to let out this emotion. And it's like, no, you don't have a fucking drip of emotion in you, bro. And the weird thing was, like, one of the investigators was sitting

in the back with him. And she had, um, she had like a cast on her foot. And he was like talking to her about it and like asking her, like how she got the injury and stuff and just being like super normal. And then the closer and closer they got to the area he was taking them, he got super quiet. So this guy was like chatting it up in the car, then gets quiet, then gets out and doesn't speak and just lets out a scream. Yeah, like he was, he was building it up. Can you imagine being there for that? Oh. So he later told Detective Nash Goulet, quote, I killed her. I did not mean to kill her. I didn't pull over to rape her. But it's like, yes, you did. Yeah, you did do these things. Like, stop pretend. I hate that whole, like, I didn't intend for this to happen. But it happened. You did it. And you know what?

It didn't just happen. You did it. Well, and not only that, so he raped her. And then he strangled her. Strangulation is so personal and there's so many different times where you can stop. It takes a long time. You have a lot of time to decide. It's a matter of a couple of minutes at least. Where you are staring into someone's struggling eyes. Yeah. That's the one that like you are meaning to kill this person.

When you say you don't mean to kill somebody and you've strangled them, you're a fucking liar. You're done. That's it. What else? Why were you strangling them then? I hate it. So he went on to describe how he drove around with Kenya's body for a day in the back of his van. Then he brought her to the bakery in that big cooler, which they saw and stored her in the freezer while he cleaned his car.

My God. He did burn her clothing in that grease barrel outside of the bakery. Unfortunately, he did a good job or else they would have found fragments of her clothing. And then he brought Kenya to Keensburg to bury her. My God. So Travis Forbes was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of Kenya Monhe and then got an extra 48 years for the attempted murder of Lydia Tillman. Good. Now, he said about the murder and attempted murder, quote, why did I do this? I've been searching for that also in my heart and soul. You don't have either. I think we commit violent acts because deep down we find hatred of ourselves. I'm so thankful that Lydia Tillman survived because if I hadn't been caught, I probably would have done this again because deep down, I'm fucked up. I'm evil. Yeah, we know that. Like, stop with the performance, dude. But let's, yeah, we don't need any of this self-aware bullshit.

It's just like that you're just, yeah, I hate that shit. It's bullshit. I'm so glad that one of my victims that I intended to brutally murder survived so that they could take me. Like, fuck you. Like, you're not glad she survived. You lit her body on fire. And also it's like, that's almost, that's almost like, I would rather the criminals sit there and go, like, fuck. Like, I didn't want to be caught.

Like, this sucks. Yeah, because it's easier to wrap your brain around. And also it's like, and then Lydia and like her family and like Kenya's family can sit there and go like, yeah, you fucker. Like, lot in jail. You know what I mean? Like I don't want them to sit there. And he knows that. Yeah, it's a mind game.

That him sitting there going like, I'm so glad. That he's sitting there being like, thank goodness everyone. Like, well, bravo. Right. That's not helping anybody. It's bullshit. Nobody wants your stamp of approval on this fucking investigation. No one wants that from you, Travis.

It's just so weird. And it's like, I want you. to be crying and sad and bye. I don't want to hear from you again. No, fuck off. That's it. Oh, that just makes me so mad that like false, like self-aware shit. It's just like, save it.

And it is. It's a mind game. Yeah, save it. That's another way to like fuck with the families. It is. It absolutely is. But this will make you happy. Lydia Tillman, she had to learn how to do everything again. I'm sure. Everything. She had to learn how to walk again. She had to learn how to speak again. But she wrote a statement that she was able to read to trap. that said, and it was during a sentencing.

Travis Forbes, you caused me no harm. My spirit, my soul, and my mind remain untouched. Yes, Lydia. Like, all, like, I just got chills even reading that. Oh, my God. And Lydia's doctor says that she has the determination and the tenacity to make a full recovery. When, like, nobody expected her to.

She spent five weeks in a coma. Lydia. Yes. Yes. Now, she now lives by a motto that doubles as an acronym for her name. live your days inspired anew. Okay, I can't. And there's a whole date line about this.

And she has like a bracelet that says it, like a green little, almost like a Livestrong bracelet. And she gave Keith Morrison one of them. Oh my God, I love it. And he like loved it. I was like, this was everything I needed. Thank you. Now, once Kenya's body was recovered, her family was able to have a proper funeral and

lay her to rest. That's so horrific. During our funeral, guests were asked to wear black and pink, being that those were her favorite colors. And the guests who attended red letters to her. And this like, well, it's hard to read. Her little sister Kim wrote to her, I'm not saying goodbye.

I'm saying see you later. I'll see you when God calls me home with you. I don't, oh, this is like really hard to read. I don't quite understand why you had to leave us all so soon, but God always has a purpose. I'm not going to look at this as a loss. I'm going to look at this as a gain. I've gained a guardian angel and one that I know I can trust.

Rest in paradise, big sister. See you when it's my time. I love you and you are always and you are always and definitely are missed. Oh, just like, oh. Now, Kenya's family also set up the Kenya Monhe Foundation and their mission is to quote, honor her legacy. The Kenya Monhe Foundation exists to provide women and children in Colorado with resources, education, and funding to engage in safe, healthy, and productive behaviors and activities in the community.

In addition, the Kenya Monhe Foundation will provide the families of victims of violent crimes and families of missing victims with the emotional, physical, and financial support that they need to survive the tragic event. Wow. Yeah. So it's like, it's always sad at the end and you're like, at least something came of it, but like at least something came of all of this disaster. Yeah. Whenever a family can like put together their grief and like help other people. funnel it into like something like that it's like so impressive too yeah and the family right not just to shut off and never go on again and it's like so when they're able to like funnel it

into something like this it's like oh it's just like gives you like hope and for the foundation to not only help like the families of victims but also just help people that aren't victims like help people in the community so that they don't become victims exactly it's just i think it says it speaks volumes of the family. Yeah, it really does. So that is the tragic, tragic case of the Kenya Monhe murder. Man, rest in peace, Kenya. Absolutely. And Lydia Tillman, like, keep on being the badest bitch alive. Like, she is so inspiring. And what, like, a, that case has such, like, lows and such highs. Oh, it definitely does. Oh, and I can't believe I just almost forgot to say this. I think I skipped over it. Kenya's mom had a ring of Kenya's that she like, it was Kenya's favorite ring.

Oh. And she said one day she just felt like Kenya there with her. And Kenya was saying like, mom give her my ring. Like mom like she give her my ring. Oh my God. So Maria Kenya's mother gave Lydia Kenya's favorite ring. Stop it. Yes.

And she was like, I know that Kenya wanted me to do that. I can't believe I almost just skipped over that. I'm so happy. I just remembered that. What a way to end it. You're just like, like my chills just took over my entire body. I just love. These people are amazing.

They're amazing people. These people are amazing. Like, I just love, I, I, it says so much about somebody to be able to do this, to give a piece of their daughter away. Like her favorite ring. Oh. And she, I believe she was wearing it at the time. I literally can't, like, I have no words.

That is, wow. And just the fact that she said, she was like, Kenya was with me. Like, Kenya was, like, compelling me to do that. Oh my God. I just love that. Holy. That gives you like this. Because Lydia Tillman really is the reason why Travis got caught.

She truly is. Like it makes sense that like. It's just this beautiful like circle of. Yeah. Just support. Yeah. And just like, wow. Wow.

I'm just like amazed. Right. And I'm so happy that he got life in prison and it wasn't one of those things were like the attempted murder. Yeah. I'm so glad. Because he got 48 years for that. Thank goodness because bye bye, Travis.

just thank God he did like bring them to the body I don't want to give him any credit but it's like I'm glad he came around and was like you know what I'll do it in some cases that never happens right and it's I'm so glad that it happened in this case I'm happy your family was able to lay her to rest properly wow wow yeah you guys are amazing if you're out there seriously like the most amazing people all of you so damn yeah so that was a tragic case um in the meantime we hope you keep listening and we We hope you. Keep it weird. But that's where they make granola bars and you don't have that as your only pastime and you also use murder as a pastime because you should really just stick to making granola bars and shut up. Be a good Travis, not a bad Travis. Yeah.