Morbid - Fred & Rose West (Part 3)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Morbid and... And it's a really, like, sad, very scary beginning to this morbid because one of our own is missing. Yeah. I think Ash has most of the information in front of you, right? I do, yeah. So our listener, Gabby Petito, is missing. And she was last seen on August 25th in Grand Teton, Wyoming. She was headed for Yellowstone National Park and she was traveling in a white 2012 Ford Transit van with her fiance. They were headed north around the time that she disappeared, but she apparently is no longer traveling in the van. Her fiance drove the van back home to Florida without her and has not been available for questioning and is not cooperating with the police. And he just showed up to Florida without her. Yeah. And apparently, like As just said, police can't talk to him. Like, the parents aren't letting him speak to her. The police. He's not cooperating. I'm concerned. What's happening here. Obviously, we don't know what's going on, but like there's a lot of weird things. And also, we got to find Gabby. Like, this is like, this is making me crazy. I mean, her parents have been pleading with media, social media anyway.

Starting point is 00:01:51 that they can share all this information. Any outlet. We've shared it on our Twitter and our Instagram on our personal Twitters. Anytime, if you guys can see it on our social media and you want to share it, please do. Make it like it shareable wherever. Yeah, wherever you can do it because we really, really want to help them find Gabby because this is like killing me. If you, you know, her Instagram page is just like full of life. It is.

Starting point is 00:02:15 She's so beautiful. She seemed like such like a sweet, just like free spirited. Yeah, she and her boyfriend. or excuse me, fiance, were traveling around the world, living like a nomadic lifestyle. They were going hiking. Yeah, just visiting different parks. And she was documenting all of this, I believe, on a YouTube channel that they shared together. And then all of a sudden it was just like no one had heard from her.

Starting point is 00:02:37 Suddenly he shows back up to Florida. Without her. And has no explanation for where she is. And she had been checking in with her mom throughout the trip, her father, her cousins. I believe they said that her niece she was keeping in contact with. And her father said she always checked in. She is not the type to go long periods of time without speaking to them. They are sure that something is wrong here.

Starting point is 00:03:00 Yeah. And it's like breaking my heart. It's like killing me. Also, all of her like information. She is 22 years old. She has blonde hair, blue eyes. She is approximately 5.5. And I read in one source like around 100, 110 pounds.

Starting point is 00:03:17 she has let it be tattooed on her right arm and a tattoo of a triangle with flowers on her left arm. And anybody with information about the whereabouts of Gabby, please contact the Suffolk County, New York Police Department. The phone number is 1-800-220-8477. Again, that's the Suffolk County, New York Police Department, and the phone number is 1-800-2208477. them. And we're going to, there's a GoFundMe set up to help in the search efforts. We're going to post it in the show notes in case you didn't, I try to remind everybody what the show notes are, because I know some people don't know what they are. I didn't before I started doing a podcast, so don't feel bad.

Starting point is 00:04:02 But the show notes that we talk about when we say we're going to link something, it's just in the description of this episode. So wherever you're listening to this episode, that little description under the episode name, you can hit See More, and that's where all the links are going to be. So we're going to put the GoFundMe link in there. Even if you can throw five bucks at it, anything. If you can't, that's okay. Just share the information. Whatever we can do, we want to get Gabby home. I just want to spread the word. Yeah, we want to get Gabby home with her parents. So that's, we just had to, we wanted to make sure we said that right away. And so sad, I really hope that they're able to find her. I know. She is brought home safe. Yeah. So to Gabby's friends and

Starting point is 00:04:41 family, we are thinking of you and we send huge, huge amounts of hugs. All of those. And we'll do anything we can to help. So, yeah. So that is the real bummer news at the top of the show. Yeah. But I think the, I mean, good news, because we're going to have to move on with the show, the good news is we are not talking about the sunset strip Slayers anymore in this episode. We're not.

Starting point is 00:05:07 But, you know, I didn't really bring it to like the lightest place. I was already working on my case for the week when you decided to bring us down. Yeah, I'm sorry. And I was like, ooh, I'm not really lifting us up either. But, you know, I don't know if you're listening to Morbid to be like, cheer. Yeah, I don't think so. And you know what? If you're like, whoa, this has been pretty heavy, I'm going to take you to a spooky place this

Starting point is 00:05:27 week. So there will be a little bit of like reprieve. Yeah, probably not a lot because it's me. But I was going to say you're like the macabre majestic maven. Oh, I love that. I know. It just came out. I like that.

Starting point is 00:05:41 I think I need to add that to like my official name. What did I even just say? Macab, Majestic, Maven. Yeah. I'm not caffeinated at all right now. No, Ash is real, she's struggle busing. I really am, like, deeply. And I don't really know why. I just...

Starting point is 00:05:57 Yeah, she's really struggling this one. I can't speak. I can't function. I just... I believe in you, though. I believe in you. I think you can do it. All right, so this case that I'm going to talk about today is the case of McKenzie Cowell. This, just right at the top, is a very controversial.

Starting point is 00:06:15 case. I have not totally made up my mind yet about like what I think. So I'm just going to present all the facts and you can feel about it however you want to feel about it. I'm not going to tell you how to feel one way or the other. Because I assume we don't know or is there no like conclusion to this? So there's a conclusion, but apparently a lot of people, this took place in Winatchie, Washington. And apparently the town is just like completely divided like on whether or not the right person is in prison or not. Because there's just like a lot of weird things that happened throughout the investigation. There's a lot of he said she said and a lot of circumstantial evidence and then a lot of like solid evidence, but then people are like, that's not solid evidence. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:06:59 So it's a very like back and forth crazy case. And at the center of it is McKenzie Cowell and she was absolutely beautiful. In this case, it's just so sad. So let's get into it. Mackenzie Cowell was born on April 1st, 1992. Her parents were Reed and Wendy Cowell. She grew up, like I said, in Winachi, Washington. Winachi is actually known as the apple capital of the world. Really? Yeah. And I had to, like, double check that. I was like the whole world. Wow. Everywhere in the world, apparently. That's wild. It's apparently like a super quiet rural. Washington apples. Washington Apple. That's a really good martini is. There you go. Yeah. It's apparently like a super quiet rural, rural place where bad things just like rural,

Starting point is 00:07:40 We're a roller driver. We're real jera. Bad things usually just don't happen here. The community was shocked by what happened to McKenzie. Now, growing up and all throughout her teen years, McKenzie was a girly girl who absolutely loved to dance. She was really talented. She was hardworking.

Starting point is 00:07:57 She was driven. She actually danced on the Appalettes dance team. The Appalettes. I know. Isn't that the cutest? She went to high school full time. She modeled in her spare time. And after school, she took classes at the.

Starting point is 00:08:10 Wenatchi Academy of Hair Design. Oh, look at that. A stylist. Yes, she was a stylist. This is actually called like the beauty school disappearance or the beauty school murder. Oh, wow. A lot of times in like the true crime world. Now McKenzie's stepmother said of her dancing, she loved to dance, dance, dance, anywhere she went, she danced, grocery stores, gas stations, anywhere if a song came on, she would just break out in a boogie. Oh my God. It was like ruined me. Just break out in a boogie. a boogie. And like everybody who knew Mackenzie just knew her as this like quintessential girly girl. She loved putting together outfit. She loved doing hair and makeup. And she was really just immersed like in that girl world. Like you know what I mean? Like me. Like I was like, I see you girl. Like same.

Starting point is 00:08:54 Yeah. She also had a boyfriend, Joaquin Villasano. And her parents said that she was totally in love with him and vice versa. They were like head over heels for each other. So McKenzie's parents read and They got divorced at some point, and both of them moved on from the relationship. Mackenzie's father got engaged to a woman named Sandy Francis. She was the one who said that McKenzie loved a boogie. Oh. And her mother started dating a man named Joe Fisher. Now, McKenzie and Joe did not get along at all.

Starting point is 00:09:22 They thought constantly. They just didn't see out of eye about anything. Oh, that's sad. And actually, the day before McKenzie went missing, she apparently got into a fight with Joe, and she ended up telling her mother, it's him or me. Oh, no, that's the day before she went missing. That's very ominous. So the day she did go missing was February 9th, 2010. She left for school early that morning. Her father said that she had like a super strict schedule for herself. She woke up really early in the morning, gave herself about an hour to get ready, and she had to be out of the door by 7.15. So she would head to school. And then directly after that, she would head to classes at the cosmetology school. Now, everything that morning was going to plan. Mackenzie saw her dad before she left, and they made plans to have dinner that night.

Starting point is 00:10:11 They were going to have, like, terriaki burgers, I guess. Oh. And McKenzie and her dad were, like, super, super close. They had, like, daddy-daughter dinner dates all the time. Like, oh, okay, just ruin me. Yeah, like, they would have, like, rupeer floats, like, orange floats together, like, any kind of float. And they would all, like, call each other. on cell phones, like she'd be upstairs and like call downstairs and be like, what kind of float

Starting point is 00:10:34 should we have? Oh, they were just really close. Super close and just like really cute. But like she just wouldn't have missed their dinner date for any. Yeah. So she did make it downtown that day to the Academy of Hair Design. So her morning went to plan. She went to school.

Starting point is 00:10:51 She made it to Hair School after high school. Okay. Now around 3 p.m., she asked one of the other students, do I need to sign out if I'm only leaving for 15 minutes. Okay. And it's unclear what exactly she was going to do. Some of her classmates assumed that like maybe she was going to grab a coffee or something. That would make sense.

Starting point is 00:11:11 Yeah, they, like nobody really knew exactly. Yeah, for 15 minutes, it's like she's just running to do something quick. Yeah, exactly, like a quick errand. Yeah. And she was known to go to like a certain coffee place. So they were like, make sense. Yeah. But the last video of her movement shows her stepping out the back door of the academy.

Starting point is 00:11:27 She heads up the stairs to the parking lot and walks to her car. And that is the last known video of McKenzie Cowell. Really? So she texted her boyfriend, Joaquin. She said, hey. And that would be the last text he would ever get from McKenzie. And that was the last time anybody heard from McKenzie. Really?

Starting point is 00:11:45 So Reed said that beauty school got out at 5 o'clock. So he called McKenzie at around like 540 to see how close she was. Because remember they're going to have like terriaki burgers tonight. They have a whole plan. And her cell phone went straight to voicemail, which he said was really, weird. That was like very unlike McKenzie. Like her phone would have always been charged and on. Yeah. So we texted her a couple more times. At one point he was like getting annoyed that she wasn't answering. And so he sent her a text like, hello, like I'm getting irritated. Like,

Starting point is 00:12:14 why aren't you answering? And then more time went by and she wasn't answering that text message. So he sent another one and was like, I'm not upset with you. Like I'm sorry. Like I'm just concerned. Where are you? I'm starting to panic. Exactly. I'm starting to panic. Time kept passing. And Reed was getting more and more worried. And then about two more hours went by and he got a call from the local police. And they said, are you missing your car? So he told them, I'm missing that car and I'm missing the girl who drives it. Oh, are you kidding me? Now, McKenzie's car was registered in her father's name. So as soon as he got that call, his stomach must have just sank. Hearing, are you missing your car and knowing that your daughter who you have not been able to get a hold of is in that car? Yep.

Starting point is 00:12:58 must be one of the worst things you can ever hear. I can't even imagine. Like where your mind would go and where your heart would drop, I can't even have them. And I just picture him like getting their dinner like ready to like just like trying to figure it out and like pass the time as he's waiting for her to come back. And he's probably sitting there like, oh, it's going to be something silly. Like her phone died or you know, but that kills me. She never came. That really kills me. Now her car was found just two miles away from the Academy of Hair Design. It was found on a rural road. That's so hard. hard to say. It is called Pilcher Canyon Road. Inside the abandoned car, the police found McKenzie's purse, but her cell phone, her car keys, and debit card were all missing. And to this day,

Starting point is 00:13:43 they've never been found. Really? Never been found. Now, anyone who knew McKenzie and was like close with her, knew that her purse went everywhere with her. She wouldn't have gotten out of the car without the purse. No. Now, later on in the investigation, the police, police would speak with three witnesses that described a similar looking man walking down a road right near where McKenzie's car was later found. Okay. They all said that this man was wearing a dark coat and that he was in the area between 430 and 530.

Starting point is 00:14:13 One of the three had like a slightly different description of the man than the other two, but like eyewitness accounts are just like the absolute worst. It can be real tough. And that's really like the only place that goes like. Yeah. It's not super prominent. Because it's hard. It's hard to know what you're supposed to believe and what people really saw. And if the timing is even right. Because one person's 530 is another person's 6 o'clock.

Starting point is 00:14:37 Oh yeah. And there's been plenty of times where I have trusted my own memory of someone. I'm like, no, they had a beard. Right. I'm like, no, they 100% have a beard. And then like, I'm with you. And I'm like, that person didn't have a beard. And then we'll see it. And I'm like, they didn't have a beard. Where did my head conjure a beard? And where did I convince myself that it was 100% true? Because your brain naturally fills in the missing pieces. Like, that's what dreaming is. That's why it's so hard. Eyewitness accounts are so hard. They can be great and they can be so detrimental. Like honestly, like the eyewitness accounts always make me think of the Lacey Peterson case.

Starting point is 00:15:12 Yeah. Because there's so many eyewitness accounts and all of them are different times and they're all messed up. Oh yeah. It happens in so many cases. Yeah. So back to this investigation, four days into it on February 13th, McKenzie's father got a call from the FBI, and they told him that McKenzie's body had been found. Now, trigger warning, this body was found in a very disturbing way.

Starting point is 00:15:37 She was found laying in the shallow water of the Columbia River in an area called Crescent Bar, and she was about 15 feet away from the shore. This was an area where people would, like, go and party, like, from around that area. She was 48 miles away from home. Wow. Yeah. And her car was found, like, two miles. away from the beauty school. Wow. Yeah. Now there were various injuries noted to her body. She had been

Starting point is 00:16:02 stabbed multiple times. There was blunt force trauma to her head. She had a head wound. My God. She had been strangled and there was a deep neck laceration. And then on top of all of that, whoever had done all of that to her also tried to saw her arm off. What? When her body was found, the knife was still stuck in the tissue of her shoulder. Stop. Like the knife was literally, like, they just like gave up in the middle of it, which is interesting to me because it's like, did somebody come and startle them? Like, that is outrageous. Yeah. And to leave the weapon. Yeah. In the wound. Right. That's like so frenzied and so unorganized and so strange. Well, and I think the whole manner of how she was killed was so frenzied and unorganized. So frenzied. It's because it's like they clearly like tried multiple things. Yeah. Wow.

Starting point is 00:17:03 That's like, ugh. Yeah, it's, it's chilling. It really is. Because you look at pictures of her and you're like, so. She's just like a girl that I would have gone to high school with. Yeah, just her whole life. I would have been a friend with. Like, she just looks like somebody you could see walking down the street.

Starting point is 00:17:18 Yeah. Whenever you like, obviously any victim you look and you're like, you have the rest of your life in front of you. But when it's like a teenager or someone younger, you're just like, man, you had decades, decades of life to live. Who were you going to be? Who were you going to be? Exactly. I think that's the saddest part. When you're that young, you don't know who you are. Like, rarely do you know who, if somebody did, like, kudos. But like, I definitely didn't know who I was at 17. And it's like, you know, I never really found out who I was till I was like 30. Like, that's when I really felt like comfortable with who I am. And it's like, they never get a chance to feel that like total comfort in who they are.

Starting point is 00:17:52 Because I think life experiences kind of teach you who you are. It adds like such an extra bummer to it. It does. Well, so the police obviously had to look into the family. Of course. But they said McKenzie's parents were never real suspects. Like it was just a formality. Yeah, you just have to.

Starting point is 00:18:07 Now, someone that they were very interested in talking to multiple times, though, was McKenzie's boyfriend. Obviously, in any case, the significant others looked at for obvious reasons. Of course. In this case may have started off like that. But it definitely seemed like there were other reasons why Joaquin was being looked at so intensely, like people say. For a while, he was told that he was the only suspect. Oh, he was interviewed a few times, like on multiple occasions. He was given multiple lie detector tests, and he was told multiple

Starting point is 00:18:37 times that he kept failing one particular question. Huh. And the question was, do you know who kills McKenzie? Wow. So obviously, he was saying that he didn't know who had killed her and that he hadn't, but the detectives were not happy with that. And he said that they also asked, him multiple times whether or not he was a gangster. And he was like, I'm not a gangster. And also like, what? Yeah. Seemed to be like a little bit of racial profiling going on.

Starting point is 00:19:07 That seems to be a little bit of like a, you know, very pointed question. Yeah, super pointed question because I'm like, and he was like, no, I'm not. Like, I'm just dating this beautiful girl who was just brutally murdered. But like, thank you for like making this all about me being a terrible person. Because I'm not. Like, cool. So almost 800 people were interviewed during the search for McKenzie's killer. And her family just felt like it had to have been someone she knew.

Starting point is 00:19:34 Because, like, we hear in a lot of cases, in a lot of cases, McKenzie wouldn't have gone off with someone that she didn't know. Yeah. Like, she wouldn't have gone anywhere with someone she didn't trust. Yeah, you know whether someone is that kind of person or not, you know, a person that's more comfortable doing that. Exactly. Now, McKenzie's mother, Wendy, her boyfriend, Joe, was also looked into, especially because, of that fight that happened where she said, like, that's either him or me. That comment was really chilling. Yeah, for sure. But he had an airtight alibi. And according to the police, they completely

Starting point is 00:20:04 cleared not only him, but Joaquin as well. Oh, good. So neither of them did it. But then it's like, okay, so who the fuck did this? I know, because you're like, good. I don't want it to be her mom's boyfriend or her boyfriend. Like that adds a whole other layer to this. But then immediately you're like, but who did it? Now I need to know who did it. So now this woman comes forward. Her name is Liz read. And she said she knew exactly who killed McKenzie. Oh. And that she saw a snuff film of the murder. And that the snuff film was taken by the killers, obviously, who she knew personally. Honestly, like, as, as like, out there as that sounds, like, whenever you hear snuff film, you're like, what? Like, no. It happens. Like, the worst things in the world happen. And then on top of it, how brutally she was murdered does

Starting point is 00:20:54 kind of lend itself to something like that. I think so as well. I'm not saying that that's definitely what happened. Obviously, I have no idea. I'm just saying like, okay, I could see a connection to that. It's interesting at least. Wow, that's really fucked up. So the woman, again, was Liz Reed, and she was working with the Winachi Police Department already at this point as an informant. She was enrolled in college full time. She was a straight-A student, but she also had connections to the drug world, which is why she wasn't informant. At the time, she was. was selling OxyContin and she was also struggling with an addiction herself. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:21:28 But at the time, they were still using her as an informant, so obviously they trusted her. Yeah. Now, she told investigators that now there was a task force for McKenzie's like disappearance and investigation. So she was telling the investigators that made up the task force that a man named Sam Kuevas and Emmanuel Buddha Saros were the ones responsible for McKenzie's murders. So they too were drug dealers, like they had been in prison before and like, served time for things like that.

Starting point is 00:21:56 And Liz said that she was told by them that the whole thing was a case of mistaken identity. Now, apparently, Quava, Quavas and Seros had mistook McKenzie for someone else who they thought was also working for the police. No. And that's why she was killed. They thought that she was an informant. Liz Reed. I can't even fathom this.

Starting point is 00:22:18 Liz Reed said they told her that they had, this is horrible. They had to choke McKenzie twice because the first. time they thought that she was dead and then she wasn't. And then she said that Sam Kovas told her, quote unquote, we choked that bitch to shut her up. What? Now, for me, it is interesting that they said they choked her twice because she had that super deep laceration. So I'm like, that's interesting. Yeah. That's just something to look at. For sure. Now, she then got into further details about the knife that the killers had used. And remember, it was left there. And she was correct about the knife that had been used. And had they released this information? And at that point in the investigation,

Starting point is 00:22:59 this was information that was being held close to the chest. So that was a turning point in this case. Maybe this girl was telling them the truth. This is exactly why they hold that kind of stuff back. So somebody comes forward without the information from the media and they can corroborate it. Exactly. To corroborate it. Wow, did I do that to you? You did. Your spirit passed into me. Coaborate. Coaborate. Now, according to the investigators, Liz through the entire investigation into overdrive. And a lot of the investigators working on that task force thought that they had their guys. Like they were full-fledged ready for this. I mean, that seems like a pretty solid case. It makes sense. But then they got another tip from another

Starting point is 00:23:40 informant named Theo Keyes. Now, Theo wrote a letter to police while he was in prison for exposing himself to a barista. Oh, just that. Very specific crime. Yeah, he definitely was trouble. Yeah. It was said that he struggled with a lot of mental illness as well. Okay. So worth putting out there. Yeah. The letter stated that they should look into someone that he was quote unquote friends with. This person was named Christopher Wilson. Okay. Now, Chris Wilson was actually one of McKenzie's classmates at the Academy of Hair Design. Oh. He was like an artist, a musician, and he was a very like eccentric guy for Wenatchie. Okay. People like to point out that a lot of, of his artwork was really dark, that he dressed differently. He wore dark clothing. He died his hair black. He liked the show Dexter. Same. He had a tattoo of Hannibal Lecter. I would too. All right. They were really just pointing out like all the dark macabre things about him. The stuff that only matters after. If something like this happens. Yeah. And that stuff,

Starting point is 00:24:46 that gets so hairy. It's not fair. Yeah. People also look to the fact that he worked at a funeral home as a red flag when he became the prime suspect in this case. I don't think that's a red flag. Of course it's not. Even after the fact, I mean, people have to work at funeral homes. It's a job. I mean, I'm not just saying that. It's like, no, you're an autopsy technician. I just don't think that's a indication of somebody being a murderer. No, it's not. I really don't. Well, and his mother had an explanation for why he worked at a funeral home. She said that actually, he decided to start working for a funeral home because of an experience that their family had had. So Chris's mother, Kathleen, she had been married to a man who actually legally adopted Chris. And then they went on to have

Starting point is 00:25:28 another son together. Now, unfortunately, years later, he passed away when he fell from like a three-story hotel window. Oh. And the reconstruction they did on his face looked nothing like him. And it was really horrible for the family members at the funeral. And at that moment, Chris decided that he wanted to get into the business so that other families wouldn't have to suffer like his. I mean, maybe I can do a better job. That's a great reason. Yeah, if that's the reason.

Starting point is 00:25:55 And again, I don't know anything about, I don't know this case, so I don't know what the deal is here. I can see why after somebody gets named as a murder suspect that you're going to point to all these, quote unquote, strange or unique things about them to be like, look, because sometimes it matches. Exactly. it works, but I think it's like a really slippery slope. It is. Because it's like, Hannibal Ector tattoo doesn't make you a serial killer. He's not a real, he's a fictional character. But not only that, he's a fictional character. And I, like, people have tattoos of actual serial killers, but that doesn't mean that they're murderers. Exactly. It's like, dude, is, is it in poor taste? Sure. But like, is it, but that doesn't make them a murderer, you know? It just is a totally different set of.

Starting point is 00:26:41 Or like, even like, I think of, like, on Halloween when, like, tattoo shops will do those special. and like you can get like a butcher knife tattooed on you. People do that all the time. That doesn't mean that you're a murderer. Exactly. And it's like it might, sure, it might not be for you. Right. But it doesn't make someone who gets it a murderer. That's just, that's a very dangerous thing to start completely connecting what you have on your body. Exactly. With being an actual serial killer. Exactly. Like I think it's just a very dangerous connection to make. Because then we're really showing people that like judge a book by its cover. Exactly. Exactly. And, judge a book by like what they do as an occupation like that's not fair. And the other thing was that

Starting point is 00:27:21 wasn't the only thing he had done in his life. He had like specifically only worked at funeral homes. Yeah. He had worked at some funeral homes. But he also had been in the army. He had also worked at like a bike shop. He had worked at like a hotel. Like he'd worked in like plenty of different places. But of course they're going to stick to the. It's like the death industry doesn't mean that like you're obsessed with death in a way that is like gnarly and unsafe. you can be fascinated by death and want to work in the death industry and not be fetishizing death. Exactly. Like, I am fascinated by death and what happens after we die.

Starting point is 00:27:58 I'm not fetishizing it. I'm not, you know what you mean? I'm happy that you said that because whether or not Chris Wilson did this, I do think that they painted him way so, like, so much in that light. Because they were like, he was like so interested in serial killers and learning about them. and he was fascinated by death. And it's like, you know, like, you could say that about a lot of people. Exactly. All like, you know, true crime podcasts, any, you know, medical podcasts, any medical people,

Starting point is 00:28:27 like people who work in the medical field are fascinated by death. Because it's like, it's such a, it's a blanket. It is. It's a blanket generalization that I think can be tough. And that's not to say that I don't think that he did this because I personally haven't made up my mind yet. So, see, and I have no, I literally know, nothing about this case, so I have no idea. Even if he did do it, I just think it's something we

Starting point is 00:28:49 like shouldn't always do is like point to what they look like and what they wear. Exactly. That's a reason to pinpoint them as a suspect. That's my whole point. Because I'm, and we won't harp on this for much longer. I'm just saying like, I always, you know, bring it back to Ted Bundy. Nobody believed that he was a serial killer just by looking at him. He looked like straight-based guy. He was involved in politics. They don't always look the part. And he did some of the gnarliest shit you could ever do. I mean, he was a necrophiliac. It's like let's not just look at somebody and be like, well, they're weird. Again, like, I think we've said it before, like Carla Hamoka.

Starting point is 00:29:20 Yeah, she's, they called them the Ken and Barbie killers because they looked like Ken and Barbie. Like, it's just slippery slope. It is. But back to Theo and his letter. That was our PSA. PSA. Don't judge people by their faces. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:29:31 And tattoos. Now, back to Theo and his letter. Theo's letter said that the police should look into Chris Wilson because he had an interest in dead bodies, serial killers. And he had said that he liked to cut people up. Okay, that's weird. Definitely weird, but also like, do we have video of him saying that? Like, do we know for sure that he said that?

Starting point is 00:29:51 No, but I mean, like somebody's saying that somebody said that is a little strange. Oh, absolutely. I will say that. Oh, it's really strange. And it gets stranger. And that's why I'm like, every time I was like, but wait, I was like, oh, shit. And then I was like, but wait. And then I was like, oh, shit.

Starting point is 00:30:05 Because again, it obviously doesn't prove he did it. But it's like, that's a strange thing to say. It's a strange thing to say. You shouldn't like cutting people up. No. And this is a strange thing that was also stated in the letter. Apparently, a woman had told Theo that Chris had come up behind her at a party and started strangling her.

Starting point is 00:30:22 But then he stopped out of nowhere and acted like it didn't happen. Oh, that's fucked up behavior. That's fucked up. Yeah. So that's the thing. That's why I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. Again, has nothing to do with what he looks like. That's just fucked up behavior.

Starting point is 00:30:37 Right. Now, apparently the police also got another tip from another woman saying that Chris, Wilson should be looked into as a suspect in McKenzie's case because he had told her that he killed a woman in a hotel that he used to work at. And he did so by strangling her with a belt. Yeah, okay. This is not looking good. Not looking good. Not looking good for Chris. Not at all. So now right around the time that the tip came in about Chris Wilson is when the investigators on the task force started doubting Liz Reed. Like all of a sudden they were like, I don't know if her story's so true. because they were trying to find that snuff film.

Starting point is 00:31:14 Like they were trying to locate where that would be. And they couldn't find any evidence that it even existed. Yeah. So they confronted her about that. And they said that that's when she quote unquote changed her story. Uh-oh. Now she didn't really change her story, though. Oh.

Starting point is 00:31:29 She just retracted what she had said. And this is where things get weird. Because a lot of the articles that you read say that Liz Reed outed Sam Quavis and Emmanuel Seros so that she wouldn't be looked to as a suspect. but why would she even be looked to as a suspect at all? So then I was watching the video of her explaining why she retracted her statement. In the way that I took her saying it was that she recanted the statement about Sam and Emmanuel because she felt threatened by the police that she had to retract her statement or then the murder might get pinned on her.

Starting point is 00:32:01 Okay. I'm not saying that's what happened, but that's what it sounded like she was saying. Like that's what it sounded like she said. Because technically retracting your statement is changing your story. Okay. Because you're now saying that story. didn't happen. Right. So you're saying. But, but, but I just, I mean, like, she didn't change like any details or anything. She just took it away. Exactly. Yeah. And the way that she said it was like,

Starting point is 00:32:19 she felt like she had to or this was going to be pinned on her if she didn't change her story. Okay. But then like a lot of people are like, no, she didn't want it pinned on her. And that's why she took her story away. And I was like, if anything, that would make you look less credible and it might get pinned on you. My what a tangled web this is. I can't, I'm like, I don't know. See, I don't know. That's the thing. That's why I have no idea. I have no idea. And girl, it only gets I'm just going to take these facts that come out and I'm going to be like, I don't know. Me too. And I think it's sad because it's like a lot of people feel that way. And it's like at the center of this is McKenzie. Is McKenzie and her family. Exactly. Do they feel this way? Like do they? And to have literally no idea.

Starting point is 00:32:59 Right. Yeah, that's just like a real, like to not. I, I don't know if you'll say it later, but like I hope they feel some kind of closure. I'm not entire. I think they did. It seems like they did. Like I watched the 48 hours. And it seems like they were like, okay, like we have, we'll get there. So, but why would they want her to retract her statement when so many of them believed her for a good while? Now, a lot of people think, now, like, this is where I say, like, the community is divided. Because some people think that the murder was pinned on Chris Wilson at this point, because it had been like a good, like, six months or so into the investigation with nothing. Now, it really wasn't going anywhere and they were apparently getting desperate. it. Now, this case was suggested a lot in our inbox, I think I said in the beginning, and everyone

Starting point is 00:33:43 pointed out that everybody had different feelings. And half of the people think that the wrong person is in prison. So let's get into like a little more about Chris Wilson. Yeah. He was going to cosmetology school, by the way, because his mother and her husband opened a salon in town and he wanted to help his mother run the salon. So that's why he was in hair school. I was also going to think, I would think that cosmetology would be helpful in funeral. Yes. home to, if you're looking to get into like embalming and the post-mortem makeup and all that, I feel like cosmetology school would help. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:34:17 If that's what you're looking to do. Exactly. But it's interesting because then, like, his friend said, like, he didn't really want to work at the funeral home anymore because the bodies creeped him out. So, like, his friends were saying that it creeped him out, and then other people were saying, like, he said that he liked to cut up dead people. Yeah. So it's a lot of back and forth.

Starting point is 00:34:33 But back to February 9th, the day that McKenzie went missing. Chris Wilson is seen on the security. footage from the school leaving out the same backdoor as McKenzie not too long after she leaves. Okay. Which is weird. Yeah. Now, when he was interviewed by police originally, he said, yeah, he knew who McKenzie was, like they went to school together, but that they didn't really talk.

Starting point is 00:34:55 And he willingly gave them a sample of his DNA. Okay. So it took a week for the DNA to come back. And when it did, they brought Chris Wilson back into the station again. This time, they asked Chris Wilson if he had ever been to Crescent Bar, where we're McKenzie's body had been found. He told them that he hadn't. And then they asked him if that was so, then how would his DNA have ended up there? So couple that with the fact that the Crescent Bar was only a few blocks away from his apartment. Oof. The police were zeroing in on him. They told him he was under

Starting point is 00:35:27 arrest for the murder of McKenzie Cowell. And at that moment, he immediately asked for a lawyer. I mean, all this seems pretty good to me. Yeah. So Chris's family, and you might think this name sounds familiar. They hired famous defense attorney John Henry Brown. Oh, hey. Yep, Bundy. There you go. He represented Bundy, Colton Harris Moore, the barefoot bandit, and Sergeant Robert Bales. He's like a list. It's a very controversial lawyer. Yeah. But John Henry Brown claims that Chris Wilson was being framed for this murder and that it wasn't the first time Wenatchie was doing this. Now, he recalled a case in Winachi that he had actually worked on in the mid-90s where a ton of people were wrongfully convicted of sexual abuse in what he called the Wenatchi witch hunt and which became known as the Winachi witch

Starting point is 00:36:13 witch. Really? No, he was the one to get some of the cases dropped for a bunch of clients. I'm going to link this really good Washington Post article in the show notes to give you like a little more about that case. But the gist is that in Winachi in the mid-90s, there was this officer named Robert Perez who was promoted to a detective during a time where there was a lot of child sexual abuse cases going on. That's awful. Now, this guy was trained really quick. and he was the only investigator working on these kinds of cases, but a lot of people felt like he wasn't qualified for the job and that he was placed in a position of power when he shouldn't have been. Now, later, he and his wife were fostering a child who I'm just going to leave

Starting point is 00:36:54 nameless for this. Yeah. She started having like horrific recollections of essentially a child sex trafficking ring that involved like hundreds of people in the community. What? But the more and more involved it got, there were people being accused that, like, definitely didn't have anything to do with it because they weren't even living there at the time. So, like, fingers were being pointed at people. And it seemed like fingers were being pointed at people if they spoke out against this whole thing and, like, doubted it. It literally was like the same of witch trials. A witch hunt. People said that Perez would, quote, pick people out and target them. Now, eventually this child, like the foster child, named over 90 different

Starting point is 00:37:38 people who abused her particularly and got other children to say things about what had happened to them. But over time, her stories started becoming less credible because, like I said, she was like saying people had done it that hadn't even been there at that time. And then other children admitted that they were lying. Oh, wow. This is messy. It's super messy. And children also came out later and said that Perez had intimidated them into lying about some kind of alleged abuse. Now Perez Perez did admit later that he would destroy his notes from cases. What the fuck?

Starting point is 00:38:12 But not before a ton of lives were like totally destroyed and everything just like died down. But people went to prison for this. Well, that all sounds bad all around. But basically it became the witch hunt of Wenatchez. And these kids are like having to go through all this like traumatic. Oh, it's just. It's a case within itself that will definitely never cover because I can't get into children's stuff. like that. But again, I am going to link that Washington Post article. It goes like very into detail and it was

Starting point is 00:38:40 interesting to read about. It was heartbreaking, but interesting. Wow. I've never heard of that. Neither had I. But that was what John Henry Brown was referencing and he was like, this isn't the first time when actually has like pointed out people that are different because a lot of the people that were pointed out in that case were like illiterate people. They were poor people. I had some kind of unique things that. They were kind of like the outskirts like people, like the odd people. like the odd balls, quote unquote. Now, he was able to get some of his clients' charges dropped in that case, or he had them plead guilty for less harsh sentences.

Starting point is 00:39:17 Okay. Now, he's known as a defense attorney to have his clients plead, like, guilty to lower sentences just to get them, like, basically to get them plea deals. For sure. Now, interestingly enough, the prosecutor in that case as well, Gary Reese, was going to be the same one trying to prove that Chris Wilson was guilty of murder. Oh, wow. So these two were going head to head again.

Starting point is 00:39:42 Oh, wow. Like, however, like, what, 20 years later? That's crazy. Like rematch time. Yeah. Now, the prosecution did have a good amount going for them. They had a piece of duct tape, and that's the one that was found along the shore. That was, it was found along the shore where McKenzie's body had been found.

Starting point is 00:39:58 And Chris's DNA was found on it, and so was McKenzie's blood. Now, it was Chris's Y-Strand DNA found on the duct tape, and it was found through Y-S-T-R profiling. Okay. And Y-S-T-R can't actually identify a specific individual like a fingerprint would, but it can narrow down a statistical pool of people. So the DNA profile found on that piece of tape would most likely be Chris Wilson's, but according to a court affidavit, quote, a white male has a one in 1,047 chance of sharing Wilson's YSTR profile. Okay. Now, that sounds like a big number, but it's really not.

Starting point is 00:40:38 But in, yeah, it's just, yeah. So that, like, his profile would be shared by his father, his grandfather, like, potentially, like, maybe even like some of his brother, like, it's intense. Yeah. Now, obviously a slim chance that, like, it was somebody else's DNA because one in 147. It's a coincidence. If it's not his, that it happened to be the guy that they're looking at. But because it's not like a fingerprint or something like that.

Starting point is 00:41:04 It's not as compelling. It's not as compelling. And it's enough that would provide reasonable doubt to a jury. For sure. So the prosecution had more, though. Now this is where I'm like, okay. They found a video on an iPhone belonging to Tessa Skylaman. She was one of Chris Wilson's friends.

Starting point is 00:41:23 And they had actually dated, like, when they were younger. Um, his mom said that she was like a daughter to her. Wow. Now, the video is of she and Chris cleaning up his apartment when he was moving out. And they seemed to be really concerned about the cleanliness of the apartment. And they said that was because Chris wanted to get a security deposit back. Like that's why they were concerned about it. And this is this moving out of the apartment that was near the crime scene? Yes. Okay. So, so this is after McKenzie had been murdered. Okay. Now, so they're having this really weird conversation. So I'm going to tell you what it says.

Starting point is 00:41:59 Chris says, does it look clean? And Tessa says, clean for what is happening? Like, clean considering? Yeah, it's clean considering. Which is a weird thing to say. For what is happening? Yeah, like, for what is happening? I was like, what does that mean?

Starting point is 00:42:13 And then they found another video of Tessa going into the apartment alone. And they say that she moves a coffee table and zooms in on where they ended up finding McKenzie Cowell's blood. They end up finding her blood. in that apartment. Okay. I mean, to me, that's case closed. Case closed.

Starting point is 00:42:31 So they say that she zooms into the blood and then she like goes into the bathroom and takes a video of the bathroom and then the video ends with her face in the mirror. The police believed that it was obvious that she was looking for blood and saying that the apartment was clean considering the fact that McKenzie had been murdered there. Because she's sitting there saying considering the fact. But according to Chris and Tessa, that specific area of the carpet had been damaged during a party and that's what they were saying when they were saying like clean considering what happened well i mean it was it was found to be her blood it was found to be her blood

Starting point is 00:43:06 that's it right i mean how do you explain that so tessa actually ended up being arrested on suspicion of obstructing an investigation and rendering criminal assistance she was arrested and held on twenty nine thousand dollars bail but she was able to post the bail in the affidavit for the against her, the police also claimed that there's photos of her lying on the floor where the blood was found, quote unquote, posing like a dead person. But she said that those photos were taken after she passed out from being drunk at a party there. And then the police said that her boyfriend at the time came forward and said she didn't know where she was posing. Like she didn't know that the blood was found there. And that Christopher Wilson had instructed her to pose there like that. That's

Starting point is 00:43:55 what one of her boyfriend said. But she had told the police that she had passed out in that area. And then, like, for some reason, he took a photo of her. So there's, like, three different stories happening. Yeah, there's, yeah. There's, like, 87 different stories happening. Very shady. So Chris's defense tried to argue that the blood had been planted in his apartment

Starting point is 00:44:13 and that there was no evidence proving that it hadn't been. Except that the video of her zooming in on it when they were just there. But they're trying to say that that was a stain from a party, like that it wasn't blood. because it also like wasn't super dark in that video. And then I don't know. So they also argued that there would have been much more blood found in the apartment because of the manner in which McKenzie was stabbed. But her blood was only found in that specific area.

Starting point is 00:44:39 Like that one cut out of the carpet. And they also wanted to note that McKenzie was stabbed and that her jugular vein had been cut. I was going to ask if there was like, because that would be a whole different of blood. And so her jugular vein was cut. And remember, they tried to saw off her arm. Yeah. And the prosecution had a point for that too. Remember, I told you Chris Wilson really liked the show Dexter.

Starting point is 00:45:06 Yeah. They said that he was infatuated with that specific serial killer. So maybe he had taken notes from the show and laid out plastic. That was their. Okay. Which, okay. Sure. Now, all of that.

Starting point is 00:45:19 I mean, sure. Yeah. I also think that the, since. that knife was found in her arm still, to me that says that it was attempted where she was found. That's, I don't think they would transport her with the knife in her arm and not remove it at some point. It doesn't make a lot of sense. To me that it was done there. Right. So maybe that explains why there would be a lack of blood like at the apartment for that part. Maybe that part and maybe a lot of the mutilation and happened over there. Good point. Maybe. I mean, I don't know. You can look at it

Starting point is 00:45:48 whatever you want to because there's, this is a wild case. about to get even more wild because this is what I find the most interesting in terms of the concrete evidence. Okay. So in addition to Chris's DNA, another unknown male's DNA was found on the strip of duct tape. On the knife that was left in the tissue of McKenzie's shoulder, they found genetic materials from at least three males on that knife. Oh.

Starting point is 00:46:16 None of which are a match for Chris Wilson. Huh. Now, one of the possible contributors of the genetic. material on the knife is a detective who was involved in the chain of custody. Okay. Which can happen, but like they try really hard to avoid that. But I mean, it definitely can happen. But it definitely happens.

Starting point is 00:46:33 But that's not it. The interior of McKenzie's car was swiped for DNA and there was some found, but none of it matched Chris Wilson's DNA. So no DNA in the car matched his. Okay. And it was determined to be from an unidentified male, the DNA in that car. Okay. And finally, and this is the most compelling evidence for me,

Starting point is 00:46:53 there was DNA found under McKenzie's nails on her left hand that did not match Chris Wilson's DNA. That's interesting. Who's DNA is that? Whose DNA is that? So the only place he left his DNA was on a piece of duct tape. Well, and it's like, then to flip it, you could say maybe this unknown male drove her car. Yep.

Starting point is 00:47:18 Or was the one engine. Maybe there was multiple people involved. Maybe there was multiple people here. Exactly. Maybe it's not just one that we're looking for. Right. Because I just, I don't, wow, this is like very, I would not even know what to say. No, that's the thing.

Starting point is 00:47:34 So because like some of the evidence was circumstantial with the DNA and all that, but then there was the blood, but then the prosecution was trying to say the blood was planted, everything was just all over the place. And Chris Wilson got offered what many referred to was the deal of a lifetime. If he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, he would only have to serve. six and a half years in prison. For what was done to her? For McKenzie's murder.

Starting point is 00:47:59 They were willing to drop the charges to manslaughter, which like, and he'd only serve six and a half years for stabbing a woman, strangling her, leaving a deep laceration in her neck, and trying to saw off her arm. And blunt force trauma to the head. And blunt force trauma to the head. Thank you. Six and a half years. And they were going to drop those.

Starting point is 00:48:23 charges to manslaughter. I'm malfunctioning. I'm literally like short-circuiting right now. How? I have no idea. How? That is, I can't even wrap my brain around it. So his defense attorney, John Henry Brown, said it was a great deal for someone who was

Starting point is 00:48:42 guilty, but for someone who was innocent, that it wasn't. Because you don't want to serve six and a half years in prison for something you didn't do. And be charged with manslaughter when you didn't do it. And Chris said, no, I didn't do this. I'm not taking that plea deal. He said no to the plea deal, and he was willing to go to trial and prove his innocence. Okay. He was like that confident in it.

Starting point is 00:49:02 Now, insert Liz Reed back into the picture. Oh, boy. She wasn't done yet. She was like, I'm going to let you finish, but actually I'm not. Wow. So she comes back into the picture, and she says that Emmanuel Buddha Saros demanded that she come out to the place where McKenzie was actually murdered and find a ring that had come off her finger while they murdered her.

Starting point is 00:49:25 And she said that she was willing to testify at trial under oath about what had happened. She found the ring. She said, quote, it was smashed. It was a little bent, but it was a ring. Now, the ring was shown to McKenzie's family and her boyfriend allegedly, but none of them recognized it. There is a photo, though, where McKenzie is wearing a ring that looks an awful lot like the one that Liz Reed found.

Starting point is 00:49:51 And I will post it. to me it looks like the same ring. And it's a very distinct ring. You can Google it right now. I'm literally going to Google it. It's like silver. And I'm not sure if it's pearls or if it's just like silver beads on the top, but there's two beads.

Starting point is 00:50:05 So there's the picture of the ring when Liz Reed found, like says she found it. And then there's a picture that McKenzie took. I think it's like a mirror selfie. And it looks like the same ring on her finger in the picture. Okay. Now, Emmanuel Serro said that Liz was crazy, that he finally had a good job. he was turning his life around and that she was ruining it for him. Oh, boy.

Starting point is 00:50:26 So all of that is going on before the trial even started. They're all just sitting there saying, like, I'm going to say this and I'm willing to testify this and yada, yada, yada. So now they're doing jury selection. And a lot of people being considered for the jury admitted in like questionnaires that they had seen a ton of media coverage about this. And apparently either more than or just around 80% of them were going into this thinking that Chris Wilson was already guilty. that that's a tough one so when he heard that he panicked and he decided to ask for another plea bargain because he was like really panicking at this point yeah but in order to get this plea bargain he needed to write a full confession and that would be in exchange for 14 years in prison

Starting point is 00:51:09 so if he really was innocent he really should have taken that first one i was just going to say wow chris wilson agreed to that and the judge asked him in front of a packed courthouse and he paused before saying yes, that this was indeed his statement, but ultimately did say that he, quote, recklessly caused the death of Mackenzie Cowell by strangulation and stabbing her with a knife. Now, on May 23rd, Chris Wilson was sentenced to 14 years in a medium security prison, and the judge, Judge Bridges said, it's almost impossible to find the words for the family of the victim, the family of the defendant, or the community. It's just too bad for all of us. But I just wanted you to know we're all kind of in this together. So Mr. Wilson is going to prison.

Starting point is 00:51:58 It was just a really strange. I'm like, that's a... Like he's apologizing to McKenzie's family, thank God, because they absolutely deserve to apologize to for what happened. But then he's also recognizing Chris Wilson's family and the entire community. And say, he says like, we're all kind of in this together. I mean, I get it at the, at the same time, like at first I'm like, that's a strange way of saying it. But then when I think about it, I'm like, well, yeah. This rocked a community. Because no matter what, it's like, you can't blame Chris Wilson's family if he is the killer. So you're going to say, like, they're also victims in a different way. And then the community obviously felt very connected to this case

Starting point is 00:52:39 and this, in this young woman. So in a way, they all were wrapped in it together. And it's not like you sat there and was like, sorry Chris Wilson for like having to sentence you. So it's one of those things where like this whole case like you look at it one way but then you look at it in another way and you can kind of see like you're like because when you're coming at it like when you can come at it from like oh maybe he didn't do it then things start turning right different ways in your head but then you're like if you did do it it it turns the other way right it's hard there's a lot of gray area for me in this case like I'm glad I went into it not knowing this case because I'm trying to look at things both ways and I can tell you right now I don't know me

Starting point is 00:53:19 Neither. I don't know. Okay, I'm glad that you don't know if they got it right. I don't know if they got it right. It seems, I don't know. It's the DNA stuff is what throws me a little bit. Because that's the thing. Because as soon as they were like her blood was found in his apartment, I was like, oh shit, he did this. There it is. Like, you literally said case closed. But then it's like all this other DNA was found like on her actual body and on the murder weapon and he didn't do it. But then you're also looking at it like, well, he really liked Dexter and like Dexter's really good at cleaning. It's like, well, one of the main. thing. And of course, again, I don't like looking at what you watch or what you listen to, because if that's the case, I'd be locked up. Oh my God. Look at our Amazon, like libraries. Yeah, it's not a good thing to do. And Dexter is one of my favorite shows. John and I were obsessed with Dexter. I had like the same blood spatter analysis photos that he had in his like laboratory. I like that you said had. That I, well, I have them. I haven't hung them up though because children. But it was before we had children that I had them hung

Starting point is 00:54:19 in our living room and then I had to take them down because we would just be like at Christmas like oh we're out of lanis yeah and I'm like there they are but I loved that show I still love that show can't wait for it to come back but one of the things that is really like specific to Dexter's character and his you know his whole role as a serial killer is one he kills bad guys so that's the that's not that it's really like great but uh on top of that is that he is methodical and then he has a room set up ahead of time and that he puts the tarps down. He's always wearing gloves. He's always wearing a full suit.

Starting point is 00:54:55 So not even a speck of anything could be found on him because his whole life was training to never be caught. Yeah. So it's like maybe somebody who was into that and was already feeling those feelings, sure, could take notes and say, I need to cover myself completely to not get caught. Absolutely that could happen. It doesn't make it like, you know, Dexter's fault or something. But I also think that's like a stretch in a way because what you watch.

Starting point is 00:55:23 But I don't know. Well, and then it's like, okay, so can we look into like his bank account? Did he buy sheets of plastic anywhere? Well, that's what I'm wondering. I'm like, do we have any evidence that shows that he bought plastic or anything? If they had that, they would have presented that. And I didn't find that anywhere in my research. But then it also doesn't mean that it isn't part of the evidence with cash.

Starting point is 00:55:45 Yeah, exactly. It went somewhere where they didn't know. like that's the thing it's like anything could have happened in this case and I feel like there's just so much that you're left to kind of fill in piece together to make up your own mind and at the end of this I was like my mind doesn't made up no I don't know right I can I hope they have the right guy in prison because you hope that of course I hope that justice is being served and I hope that the family feels closure and I and I hope that it's all that's I hope that's the way it is yeah for for Or the McKenzie's family and those who cared about her and knew her, I hope that the right guy is in prison and that that closure is there.

Starting point is 00:56:25 And that they feel that closure. Like, I hope that for them. And I can see. I can see. I can see why he's in prison. Absolutely. But it's like, I mean, her blood was found in his apartment. Dad, you said, case closed.

Starting point is 00:56:37 That's real compelling to me. I just don't know. But interesting. Chris's mom and McKenzie's stepmom, like after the verdict was read, they hugged each other in the courtroom. and both of them told each other that they were sorry for the other one's loss. Oh, my whole body. It broke my heart. But it's also just like such an example of like what wonderful people they are.

Starting point is 00:56:57 Because for her stepmother to sit there and say like, I'm sorry for your loss when her son is still alive. And you've lost your daughter in such a gruesome manner maybe at the hands of her son. And you can say like, I'm sorry for your loss too. I think that's like, that's some like high level humaning. High-level humaning. Like, that's like above-level human beings right there. Now we're not done yet. We're not done.

Starting point is 00:57:23 We're not done. What? So about a year later, Chris Wilson tried to withdraw his guilty plea, saying that he didn't understand at the time the consequences when he entered the plea deal, and he said he entered it involuntarily. His request was denied. Oh, boy. But he might be able to be released from prison in 2023, and he still made.

Starting point is 00:57:45 maintains his innocence. And so does his mother, Kathleen, who I saved this for the end. She said that at the time McKenzie was supposed to have been murdered, Chris was out with her buying a plate of cupcakes. Okay. And she said, it's interesting to me, the trial of public opinion, the way they've portrayed my son and Tessa. It's so tragic that, number one, people are so judgmental. And number two, if they lived in Seattle, they would not have been looked at twice. But because we live in Wenatchi, they do stand out a little bit more. Hmm. And then McKenzie's father Reed said that he hung this beautiful wind chime in the front yard and that whenever it goes off, he likes to think that it's McKenzie talking to him, which I immediately just like wanted to cry. Oh my God, that just like hit me

Starting point is 00:58:36 like a tiny of bricks. And he said, I still think about her as though she's still around. Of course. Like that was his little girl. Oh, I feel so bad. That's just like really. Like her mother and her stepmother. Her whole family. It's just, that's horrific. It's horrible.

Starting point is 00:58:55 Wow. But he might be being released in 2023. Wow. Because this happened in 2010. So. Yeah. I didn't even think of that. Because it seems like such a recent thing.

Starting point is 00:59:05 I know. Like when you're talking about it. Because I was like, wait, how is he going to be released then? I'm like, oh, shit. It's almost been 14 years. Because when you said 2010, I'm like, I don't. I was like, wow, so this is recent. Then I'm like, no, it was 11 years ago.

Starting point is 00:59:14 Like, whoa. Yeah. But wow. I don't even know. So guys, what do you think? Yeah, I got to know what everybody thinks. I didn't get to listen to the episode yet, but I also saw that they covered this case on the first degree. I was just going to say, I think they covered this.

Starting point is 00:59:30 Yeah, because it seemed familiar. So now I want to listen to what they think. Yeah. I try to listen to like episodes after the fact so that my mind doesn't get all like jumbled up with information. Yeah, exactly. I want to make sure I'm giving you like my point of. you. Yeah. And then now I'm going to go listen to like 78 podcasts on this. Because you would like to Lee Johnson thinks. Yeah. Like I got to know. It's interesting. Wow. That's really horrifying.

Starting point is 00:59:54 And I feel for her family in such a big way. Yeah. But we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Just stop this weird. Yeah. Don't hurt people. Please. I

Morbid - Fred & Rose West (Part 3)

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