Morbid - Glasgow Ice Cream Wars

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

I SCREAM, YOU SCREAM, WE ALL SCREAM… over this true crime case known as the Glasgow Ice Cream Wars. We aren’t all watching the latest Food Network bake-off, unfortunately, this case has everything from assault to arson. It all happened back in early 80’s Glasgow. The streets were running rampant with Ice Cream Van drivers trying to overtake each other and steal the best route which ultimately led to the murder of almost an entire family.ReferencesFaux, Ronald. 1984. "Murder hunt after three die in house fire." The Times, April 17: 2.Harris, Gillian. 1998. "Ice-cream killers back in jail after year of freedom." The Times, February 11: 3.Mangan, Lucy. 2022. The Ice Cream Wars review – the gang crime that rocked Glasgow. November 23. Accessed January 17, 2023. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/the-ice-cream-wars-review-andrew-doyle-killers-1984-arson-attack-glasgow.Newsroom, The. 2004. "Who did kill the Doyles?" The Scotsman, March 21.Press Association. 2004. Glasgow 'ice cream war' conviction overruled. March 17. Accessed Janaury 17, 2023. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/mar/17/ukcrime.Skelton, Douglas, and Lisa Brownlie. 1992. Frightener: The Glasgow Ice Cream Wars. Edinburgh: Mainstream .The Times. 1984. "Former adict tells trial of 'big gun'." The Times, September 5: 3.—. 1984. "Ice Cream trial jury told of gun attack." The Times, September 7: 3.—. 1984. "Life for ice cream killers." The Times, October 11: 3.—. 1984. "Men 'attacked van with axe handles'." The Times, September 06: 3.—. 1984. "Multiple murder trial told of ice cream van attacks and injury to drivers." The Times, September 4: 3.—. 1981. "Three jailed for part in ice cream war." The Times, December 23: 3.Special thank you to David White for research assistance! Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is quarantine morbid. To the pod lab. This is COVID-19 time morbid. This is not fun. No, it's not, guys. And it's not even that, it's, we don't even have it that bad because things are still open. So I'm not like, I'm not like, oh my God, this is so hard. Like, I can still get deliveries. I can still get, I can still get, I can still get, I can still. go to Target if I really want to. I'm not. Right. The option is there. We can go get a Starbucks drive-through. It's really not that, you know, that bad. But it just sucks because

things are starting to get canceled and moved and, you know, it just sucks. I don't like it. Like we had shows that we were supposed to go to that got postponed and now I'm like crying. A bunch of shows so far that we were planning on going to. We had tickets to are now being moved. I had

tickets for John to see Lake Street dive for his birthday and that's being moved to the end of the year. We had tickets to meet Stasi Schroeder. Oh, don't even remind me. We have ticket. We were supposed to go to and that's why we drink. This is, I mean, first world problems of the highest order. Yeah, we're being absolutely dachshbags right now.

It sucks and, you know. The important thing is that we're flattening the curve. Stay inside your fucking house. You don't need to go anywhere. Lice all your delivery and soon this will all be over, I hope. Flatten that curve. guys. And just by the way, quick little side note, there, don't listen to any of these like cures for it or these like things that are being touted as things that are going to stave it off or to help you if you already have it. Just don't listen to that stuff until the CDC comes out until like actual scientists and doctors confirm these things. Just be very wary. And also everybody, make sure you're looking at your local like state police pages if you can. Because is a ton of scams going around.

I know there was like some rumor in Massachusetts that people would show up at your house in like hazmat suits and say they had to come in and like do a test. Oh, that's so scary. And then they'll tie you up and rob you. So there's no actual reports of that happening, but it's a rumor that went around. So the state police were like, by the way, don't let people into your house that are in hazmat suits. Like nobody is coming to your house from the state.

So just make sure you're paying attention to your state police. Listen to what they have to say. Make sure you're looking at official pages. just be weary everybody because I don't want anybody getting, you know, being hurt or being scammed in this shitty time we're all living in. Yeah, no, that sucks. You know, just stay, you know, Corona legit. Okay.

Yeah, wash your fucking hand. Stay legit. Stay legit. All right, guys. So we do have to announce some of our shows and get you up to date with that. So we were supposed to be at the Penchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia on April 14th. Unfortunately, April 14th, we are not going to make it because Corona. It is being postponed. It is not canceled.

We're in the works of getting that rescheduled. So it's absolutely being rescheduled. We're just nailing down a date. Yeah. And we actually, we have a date. It's just not absolutely. We just want to make sure it's official. So we don't want to release it yet. But every single date that we say is going to be rescheduled, your tickets are going to transfer. They'll be honored. So just know that. And no, we can't wait to see you either way. But we wish we were seeing you sooner. I know. If you already, so yeah, if you already have tickets to. punchline comedy club, whatever the reschedule date is, those tickets will be accepted. Yeah, and just hang tight because we'll let you know as soon as we know. You will know right when

we know. Same thing with the DC improv. That was supposed to be the very next night. April 15th, obviously, that's not going to happen. Again, working on getting that date set in stone, your tickets will be honored. Yep, your tickets are going to be honored for those ones. And if the dates, the new dates don't work for you, you know, refunds are something without, where you'll be working out with the actual venues and stuff, but just know that tickets are going to transfer and new dates are coming. They are not being canceled. Yes. As of now, we're still supposed to go to CrimeCon. I believe that's the first weekend May. And CrimeCon, as of right now is still happening. Let's just leave it at that. Let's just put that into the universe. Let's throw it in the universe.

That Corona just takes a, just dips after that. I can just dip right out of here. To see you later because I want to come to CrimeCon. Me too. We're supposed to be in Mad, Nashville. No, sorry, I skipped over something. We're supposed to be in Alabama. Oh, Alabama. We want to see you. Yes.

So these are the ones that are still happening. They're not postpone yet. So hang tight. May 6th, Huntsville, Alabama. May 7th, two shows at Zanies in Nashville. Hope to see you in Nashville in Alabama. June 2nd at the Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, North Carolina. Raleigh, I think we will definitely see you on that date, right?

Come on. Corona's going to be out of here by then. Let's all collectively put it out there. June 3rd, the very next night at the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hell yeah, Charlotte. June 11th, we added this show for all you Chicago people that couldn't come to the second show. Yeah, Chicagoans. There's also going to be a show the next day, June 12th.

That one is sold out. Both are at Talia Hall. Can't wait to see you, Talia Hall. Going to be so lit. July 8th at the Comedy Works South in Greenwood Village, Colorado. I'm so excited. I fucking love Colorado. I can't wait to show Elena, Colorado.

I can't wait for Colorado. Can't wait to see you there. Can't wait. And then on July 11th, we're going to stay home and maybe take a drive down to the Wilbur and like put on a show or something. Yeah, with the wonderful, amazing Emily Walsh. The comic stylings of one Emily Walsh. It's totally worth it.

She's amazing and hilarious. And we are so stoked about all of these shows. So. And again, we'll let you know as soon as we know information you will. Yes. And as soon as everything is updated, our link tree, which is in my bio, Elena's bio. It's on the website. It's on our personal or excuse me, our morbid Instagram.

Anytime you click that, it should be updated as soon as the dates have been reset. Yeah, and if you wanted, you know, we're going to update as soon as we can on the podcast, but for like really quick updates, go to our Instagram page, our Facebook, the Twitter, all that, our website at morbidpodcast.com. We'll be updating that as we go. So just keep an eye out. We're going to see you all. Just a matter of one.

So that's all. Well, without further ado, let's listen to the fucking, I've seen, so I've been quarantining mostly at Elena's house just because I love her. And I've seen her put in so much work to unfolding this case. This is the final part, part four. I'm so excited. This case has been haunting my dreams. Every time I think she's done, she's like, oh, wait, there's more. Yeah, there's more. I just can't even this. So we're in part four of the West Memphis. three case. This is the final part. Oh my God. I thought you were about to say her and tell us that we were. I was like, there's no part five. I mean, I'm going to be real with you. She definitely could take it to a

part five, but I'm going to spare you guys because I think we all need to move out of this frustrating headspace. Yeah. Because, you know, in a time of COVID-19, I think we need to get out of this frustrating. We need some uplifting. Yeah. We can't be stuck in this kind of frustration. No. So part four, it's going to be a long one. Thought it was going to be a short one. Definitely not. So last night I ended up watching West of Memphis, which is the Peter Jackson documentary about this. I highly recommend it. It's really good in the vein of Paradise Lost, but they looked at like forensics after the fact. And they delve very hard into one Terry Hobbs.

And I think it's really interesting for you to watch. And I think everybody should watch it. And then formulate your own opinion. We're not going to tell you our opinion. It's going to be like... I think it's going to be pretty clear what my opinion is. But we're not going to say it in so many words. But yeah, because basically I'm good with being sued by Terry Hobbs.

So I'm just going to give you the facts. Do with them what you will. Who knows? You know, just take it with a grain of salt and do what you will with it. Okay. So let's get started. So first, when we last left you guys in part three, Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly were just sentenced to very long terms in prison

and Damien sentenced to... ...after ridiculous trials that were rife with inconsistencies, lies, circumstantial evidence, and just shenanigans, but all around. Jesse Muskelly and Jason Baldwin were sentenced to life in prison, and Damien Eccles was sentenced to die by lethal injection. Oh, God. No, I just want to go over quickly what happened to the three guys after they were put in prison, their experiences. I'm just going to do a brief overview.

Then we're going to go into John Mark Byers, Terry Hobbs. We're going to talk about the people that came forward to help them, all that good stuff. So Jason Baldwin said basically when he heard the guilty verdict, he was in such shock that he said it wouldn't have mattered if I was sentenced to an hour in prison or my life in prison or sentenced to die. Oh, my God. I was dead. Like he was like this because he's like, it just ruined me. Because again, he went through this whole thing as believing God would not allow this to happen. Right.

And he was like, innocent. Why would you be put in jail? That's what he thought. He was shocked. Even though he said he knew that like by the way the trial was going that they were going to convict him no matter what. He was like, I'm still in the back of my mind was like, I'm innocent. They can't convict me. And he actually said, quote, the truth was not found out and proclaimed to everyone.

And he said, that's why he said when the judge was like, is there any reason that this sentence should not be carried out? And he said, because I'm innocent. He said, that's the only thing he could say because he was like, the truth wasn't said. I had to just be like, I'm innocent. That's why you shouldn't put me in prison forever. Like, there's no other reason. I'm just innocent. I didn't do this.

So in the winter after he entered prison, Jason received a letter from a counselor. at the juvenile center where he and Michael Carson had spent time together. Michael Carson remember was the kid who went on the stand and said, hey, I talked to Jason in prison when we were spending like four minutes together. And he just spilled his guts to me and told me that, you know, he sucked the blood from one kid and he put the balls in his mouth. And he said this really, like, graphic, ridiculous statement and was like, yeah, Jason said that to me. Meanwhile, look at Jason. You think he fucking said that?

Exactly. Like, come on. The mullet, come on. Right. So he was like, so, and it was later discovered that that was untrue. Right. Well, this is when it was discovered. Because, so Jason received a letter.

It was from a counselor at the juvenile center. And this counselor in the letter said that everything Michael Carson said on that stand was from a conversation he had with him. He said he had discussed the case with Michael Carson. And he said, quote, we were discussing the case in the meeting. and I told him what people were saying about the victims and about what was allegedly done to the bodies. This young man went to the police and stated you had confessed those details to him while in detention together. So he told him that was wrong of me.

That was so out of line. I never should have talked about that case with him. Right. I was beyond out of line. I should, you know, I should have been fired. Like, I'm horribly sorry. Nothing was done. Well, he said, but I need you to know.

I was very nervous to come forward with this because obviously I shouldn't have been speaking to him about this. Right. And I didn't know what to do. And he said, but then I got, I couldn't hold it in anymore because I was like, this is crazy that this kid is going to pretend that he was, that Jason told him this. So he said, this counselor said, he went to Jason's lawyer and told Jason's lawyer, Paul Ford. He was like, this is what happened. Paul Ford was like, will you testify to that? And he said no, he said, Yes. Yes, I will. So he said, I was totally willing to. And he said, all of a sudden they told me, you're not allowed to testify.

And he said he didn't know why he wasn't allowed to testify. But he said I was willing the entire time. Was it the judge that said he couldn't? It's like, so I can't tell the truth on the stand? So Michael Carson, this 16-year-old who told this fantastical tale with zero witnesses and just told him, yep, this is what he said to me, was allowed to testify. And now we can't rectify what the truth is? But now a counselor who's saying, no, no, I told this kid that.

And that is a false, that's a false testimony, cannot be allowed to testify. Why? Exactly. There's a lot of whys in this. So Paul Ford, once he found this out that this letter came through, Paul Ford tried to get Jason a new trial. And he did this because at one point during the original trial, Judge Burnett had met with Folgerman and Davis privately. And so the judge met with, Fulgerman and Davis were the prosecutors. Okay.

He met with them alone. Like off the record. Without the other, without the defense attorneys. Okay. That's not okay. Yeah. And especially in a trial like this one, whenever a meeting like that takes place, it has to include lawyers on both sides.

And this didn't. Right. So this was a pretty serious issue. And Paul Ford was like, we can get a new trial based on that. Right. Like that's that big. How are they going to prove? that they did that. Well, because Judge Burnett admitted that he did it. Are you kidding me? He did not

deny that he did that. Oh my God. Yeah, not at all. But Burnett was the judge that had to rule on that. So he had to rule on whether his own behavior was okay or not. Why couldn't this have been brought to another judge? Like, why was that not allowed? Because as long as Judge Burnett was the original trial judge and as long as he was. Even if he was a corrupt judge? Yep. Because and actually he ran for like, you know, some political position in Arkansas. And they were saying that they were begging that he would get elected to this position. So he would be taken off of the case. Because if he got elected to that position, he couldn't be trial judge for this case.

Wow. And so they were saying, like, we were hoping, we would have campaigned for him just to get him off of this goddamn case. So, of course, when looking at his own behavior and whether or not it was okay that he had this private meeting with Folgerman Davis, he said it was fine. He was like, of course that's fine. You're not getting a new trial based on that. Oh, my God. And they could do nothing about it.

This is like slamming your head against a brick wall over and over. Oh, yeah. And this is the thing. Judge Burnett was the trial judge through all these appeals. So he just denied every single one of them. Right. He just denied all new trials, denied all, any new evidence. He denied everything.

Right. As far as he was concerned, that was it. They're going to rot in jail. Damien's going to die. And I'm going to move on. Like, that was it. And when they were eventually, because obviously they were freed eventually, which we'll get to, but when they were eventually let out, they interviewed Judge Burnett.

And he was like, I think it's ridiculous. And I did my job. I did great. And then he was like, this is some like Hollywood shit that basically that is going on. Because you made this a mockery. And it's like, no, this isn't Hollywood shit. You just sucked at your job. That's all.

Like, it's okay to admit that you were not just. So Jason ended up, you know, he had it. He went into prison. having a really tough time because he was this tiny little 16 year old. Right. Like he was real tiny. Right. And he went in there.

People think he's a baby killer, essentially. Yeah. And he decided that he had to just act tough to like scare people into. And he said eventually, you know, he was able to like work in certain positions in prison. And he was able to like find some sense of like not normalcy, but like just survival, basically. And actually him and Jesse Muskelly were incarcerated. together a few times, like in the same place. Like, there's a couple of pictures of them, like, in the same, like, prison together.

It's very odd. Yeah. So, Jesse had a really hard time. We did. He did. So he didn't have a hard time in the sense. Damien had a hard time on, like, a whole other galaxy level. But Jesse just had a hard time because he was not, you know, at the same intellectual

level that his age was. So he was still not understanding any of this. Right. He just wanted to go home to his dad. Right. He thought, again, this was a total slap in the face to him. He had no idea this was going to happen. And he got in trouble a lot.

Because even on the outside, he was like a super tough kid to prove himself. Yeah, like he was always just fighting. Because you know, people probably picked on him and were fucking assholes. Oh, 100%. Right. In fact, in one prison photo of him, they have like, you know, they have like the name tag. Yeah. And his says Miss Kelly, but it says Miss M-I-S-S.

And then there's like a little space. And it says Kelly. So it says like Miss Kelly. Right. And I don't know. I have no thing that says that that was intentional. But when you look at it, to me it looks like it says because it was a capital K and a space in between. And to me, that's someone being a dick.

Of course. That's just, I don't know. That just seems like something that would happen to him. But he said that he would do things just to get in trouble so that he would be put in solitary. Oh. Because he said he could finally calm his mind and release his mind. and erase his mind when he was like alone. And he said, because all three of them said jail, especially death row where Damien was.

I can't imagine. They said it's just constant noise. Of course. Chaos. So your mind is just like crazy. And so yeah, he would want to get some peace and quiet. And after a while, though, he was able to control some of this. And he got to work in like the prison kitchen.

He worked on like an outside, like, you know, some kind of thing outside on all the things in prison. But he got, he was put to work and I think it helped kind of keep his mind a little busier. Yeah. And they did again, like, find some kind of like way to just survive together. Like coping mechanism almost. Yeah, exactly. So February 19th, 1996, Jesse's attorneys filed an appeal. And they filed this appeal for seven Supreme Court justices to look at evidence about his confession.

Uh-huh. So they agreed that these seven justices said, yes, in his trial, in Jesse's trial originally, the only evidence against him was that confession. Right. That's it. There was nothing else. They also agreed that it had a, that it had a, quote, confusing amalgam of time and events and contained, quote, numerous inconsistencies.

Yeah. So they agreed to all that. But then they agreed that it was sufficient for the verdict to remain. Oh, okay. Cool. That makes sense. And Chief Justice Bradley D. Jensen wrote.

So he had to write his opinion. They all write their, like, various opinions. Why they think this. He wrote his opinion using Jesse's own statements, but he just kind of like rewrote them to make sense. Right, of course. Which it's like, but that's not how he said them. That's the whole point of this appeal. Is that like, sure, if it was a coherent narrative to begin with, we wouldn't be appealing this.

Like, the reason is it's not coherent. So he said, quote, later in the stare, or actually, hold on. Yeah, so he said, quote, later in the statement, he changed the original time to noon. In the later statement, the appellant said that Eccles and Baldwin had come to the Robin Hood area between five and six. Upon prompting by the officer, he changed that time to seven or eight. He finally settled on saying that this group arrived at 6 p.m. while the victims arrived near dark. So all seven justices said that that's weird and inconsistent, obviously. But then they said, quote, when inconsistencies appear in the same.

the evidence, we defer to the jury's determination of credibility. So why are we here? Right. So then what's the purpose? The jury already said they were guilty, so why are you there? Exactly. Because it's like, wait a second, but we're saying that the inconsistencies are what makes this a weird verdict. And you're saying the inconsistencies are weird, totally. But the jury said what they said. But the jury said guilty, so we just defer back to them. Then what the fuck are you good for? That seems like a circle of nonsense. Like, what the hell? So, so awesome. So like we said, Dan Stiddam kept with the case up to the very end. And this was Jesse's lawyer.

That was Jesse's lawyer. Okay. And he argued that he was coerced to confess, obviously. And the justices basically were like, yeah, it kind of looks like that could have happened, considering his age, intelligence, and education. But like, considering everything. I don't know what to tell you. They even said that the requirement for a voluntary confession was that the state had to convince the court that the statements were voluntary. not the other way around, but they still said that this was voluntary.

Okay. Even though they did not convince at all. Right. So when the fact that Gitchell and Ridge used, remember when Gitchell and Ridge had used Aaron? Vicki Son. Yeah, Hutchinson's disembodied voice saying, nobody who knows but me or whatever it was. Absolutely fucking terrifying. To, like, freak Jesse out.

They said, the justices said that that tactic, quote, gave them pause and, quote, comes perilously close to psychological overbearing, but then said, it's fine. Okay. Yeah. So it comes real close to being real fucked up. But I just don't understand how you put your fucking head on your pillow at night and go to sleep knowing that you did all of this. Well, and even the fact that the detectives had failed to have Jesse's parents or guardians

sign his waiver of rights didn't matter to the justices. And that's illegal. Right. The detectives literally didn't have a parent or guardian. and sign that waiver and Jesse was underage at the time. Okay. That's not legal. That all should have been thrown out because of that one thing.

And they were like, oh, I don't know. It's too bad they couldn't have moved this trial somehow. Oh, it's unbelievable. And Stidham said certain evidentiary items were completely irrelevant and prejudiced towards them. And the court ignored it and said they were fine. And these were things like the witchcraft book of Damien's. Right.

Which is like, what the fuck does that have to do with the case? Vicky's lying about the espot. A photo of Jason wearing a black metallic a shirt with a skull on it was evidence. A band t-shirt. And Dan Stidham was like, yeah, no, like that's not okay. That's prejudiced and not relevant. And it's based on the music he listened to. They said that is relevant as fuck.

It's not. That was the official statement from the Justin. They were like, that's relevant as fuck, guys. You know what, though? I wouldn't even be shocked if that's what the official statement. And they were just like, boom. Because in the official's justice opinions, they wrote that eight is a witch's number. That was in the official thing.

But was it nine or was it eight? It was a, who knows, really? But apparently they said it was eight. The expert didn't know. Yeah, he didn't know. Well, he just changed it as he saw fit. They're just like, well, you know, maybe 10. And he's like, sure.

He's like, you know what? It said like a number. I don't know. So it had come out by that point that Dr. Peretti, the medical examiner, had actually changed. the time of death of the boys from what he thought, because again, time of death for this case was really hard to determine.

Right. He thought it was well after midnight now. So now he was saying like, actually, so this vastly fucked with Jesse's supposed version of events. Uh-huh. And the court said, that doesn't matter either. Does, though. It does matter.

It's just like, okay. So, yeah, so Jesse, so that didn't happen. No new trial happened for him. It's crazy that they were able to get of jail. I'm so shit. Like, thank God. They were so close to not being able to. It's crazy. So then we come to Damien, who was on death row. Now, he was placed immediately in solitary. Oh, God. His antidepressants were stopped abruptly. So he went through abrupt withdrawals. You can have, like, seizures from that. Yeah, you can die, basically. So he, in he had filed

complaints saying that he was brutally beaten, brutally and repeatedly raped. by other inmates. He was beaten by guards. He said it was literal hell. He was in solitary for literally like a decade. Oh, my God. Yeah. So he wasn't outside of a tiny concrete cell for like eight to 10 years. Holy shit. And Damien, and I will explain at the end, I'm going to explain how this affected his health when he got out. So Damien and Jason's appeals went about as good as Jesse's. they said everything Judge Burnett did was totally fine and even though the evidence was circumstantial completely

it was totally fine and they didn't need to look at this again yeah of course no problem they listed the fact that Damien was into witches in the occult and he had a journal that had pentagrams in it he said that they one of the reasons was he wore long black coats

even when it was warm that eight was a witch's number and that it was near a pagan holiday And that's it. He was like, that's so it must be satanic. And it was him. He did it. That's why.

And he said, one of the other things that they really harped on, because they really listened to that occult expert, quote unquote. That's what the justices were like, yeah. He said this. He literally confused himself on the stand. He couldn't even, he had a mail-in degree. Oh, yeah, I forgot that part. Yeah. And then they also said that they were very, you know, they cited this is very serious, too,

that the left side is supposedly satanic. Oh, right. Because you know how people like before you, people used to try to make people right handed because they said the left hand was like the devil. Yeah. And right hand is supposed to be more like Christianity and like pureness and all that. Well, they said that some of the worst injuries were on the left side. So it must be satanic.

But that doesn't, wouldn't the bad, if it was satanic, wouldn't the bad injuries be on the right side, which is the Christian side. Right. You'd be trying to do face that. You wouldn't be going against that. You wouldn't be going against your own. So it's like, that doesn't even make sense. And no one's sitting there being like, wait a second.

And also we determined that that was probably turtles. Exactly. So. So the only evidence they said that was relevant for Jason's guilt was Michael Carson's testimony. Oh. They still hung on to that. And that was literally proven to be bullshit, but they didn't care. They agreed that the trials probably should have been severed,

Damian and Jason's. Yeah. So they were like, yeah, we probably should have severed that, but like hindsight, you know? Mm-hmm. Whoops. It was just kind of like, oh, we didn't do it. Sorry, kid, you got to stay in jail for the rest of your life. Too bad. And they also said bringing animals, they brought the fact that Damian had animal skulls in his room. He had metal music posters and witchcraft and occult books. And they said that was totally fine to bring into evidence and totally proved his guilt. Yeah, totally. So you ask. So me and you are murderers then too. Right? And it's as you can see at the highest level here, there was no help.

It was just, there was no help all around. So, yeah, so Damien had an absolutely terrible, but he did turn to like Buddhism in, and he, because remember, Damien went into this and he was very interested in all religions. Right. Not just Wicca. Right. And he was, so he suddenly found himself with a lot of time. And so he was studying a ton of Buddhism.

He started, like, meditating for, like, eight to, or, like, five to eight hours a day. He would have to, like, that's crazy being able to, he was, like, sitting and meditating for that long. So, you know, while they're in prison, we all know that the Paradise Lost documentaries came out. The first one in 1996, Bruce Sinovsky and Joe Berlinger were the ones who made this. They had no idea that it was going to turn into what it was. They went into this thinking there, doing a film of. about three teenage murders. Uh-huh.

And then it turned into like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. This is not what it seems. They vowed to make those movies until they were free, and they did. Yeah. They came out with three. So everybody definitely go watch it because they'll blow your fucking mind. They're really good. A lot of people have said that they went and watched it and were like, whoa.

And actually, some people have said it changed their minds. It does. It really does. And then also, again, go watch West of Memphis, too, because that's a real. really great one with Peter Jackson at the helm, so definitely go see that. During this whole time, you know, the Paradise Lost documentary came out and that's when the first one and people were like, wait. Like no one had heard of, you know, people knew about the case, but now people were like, wait a second. And this is when West Memphis3.org was born. This is the thing that really

kick started the free the West Memphis three movement. writer Burke's Saul's graphic artist Kathy Backen and photographer Grove Pashley which are just like three great names. Awesome names. Like I'm like you guys have awesome names. Like Grove and Burke I just feel like

you need to have a band together or something. They were from Los Angeles. They saw Paradise Lost and just couldn't get over it. Like all three of them just couldn't stop talking about it and we're like, I can't move on from this. And they also realized that they couldn't get a lot of information about the case and they

all dying to know more. Kathy in particular was like, I need to know what's going on with this case. So she wrote to the lawyers and heard that nothing had happened for these defendants and that they were just rotting away in jail. And that their appeals had been denied and all this. And she was like, that's unacceptable. She's like, I was horrified. I was like something needs to be done here. So Burke actually said he felt like, he was like, I watched the movie and then I was, when it was over, I felt like I missed the part of the movie where they showed me that they were guilty. because it just didn't happen. It ended and I was like, wait, you didn't show me their guilt.

Like, I don't understand. Did I miss a part of this movie or something? And so they were all like, we got to do something. So in October 1996, they went to Arkansas, the three of them. They were like, we, they went to the crime scene. They went to meet Damien and Jesse and Jason in prison. Because they were like, we wanted to get the whole picture. We wanted to be in the thick of it.

See the area. Talk to some people. like really get a feel for it. They talked to Dan Stiddam and they were absolutely convinced after this that they had been railroaded just like the documentary show but they were like the documentary showed us that

but we wanted to see it for ourselves to make sure we weren't being like shown a different side of this whole thing and they felt like it was like everybody else feels it was like Salem level hysteria. It was like almost worse I think it really was and after speaking with people in the area

they were like we just can't let them rot in jails. So this is when they figured that they had to put all of these updates and real evidence onto a website for people to dig into. Mike Huckabee was the governor at the time. And they were trying to get people to write to him to help move this along. Don't think that went real well. Probably not. Don't really know why. But they sold merch on the website.

They were reaching out to celebrities, trying to get people just. And they were trying to get people just. to be like, here, look at what we have put out there. And you make the decision, but if you feel like we feel, like, get on our side. Yeah. If you don't, see you later, goodbye. That's fine. But, like, we know that this is the right thing. So their whole thing was they were trying to raise money to get them a new trial, get evidence, like, get things tested. Kathy even, like, took forensic courses. A couple of them took, like, courses in school just to get a better understanding of the whole thing. Like, they went hard. They put discussion forums on the website. They uploaded documents from the court cases. And then they

would also do interviews with Damien and Jesse and Jason and like upload them on there so people could do like questions and answers while they were in prison. That's crazy. That's when the free the West Memphis three catchphrase was born. There was like T-shirts. Yeah, I've seen the shirts. They took for and again, they took the courses and they were instrumental in getting this happening. Right. In all three of the guys say like without them this wouldn't have been without them in like the paradise lost people and like you know peter jackson and all like the big names that stepped up to like johnny devs stepped up um eddie vettor uh henry rawlins natalie mainz and the dixie chicks they all stepped up and were like fuck that this is not justice right so without them it definitely wouldn't have gone as far as it did

Now, while this is all going on, like we mentioned earlier, Vicki Hutchison, the waitress who said that she went to in a spot with Damien and Jesse and then was like, whoops, just kidding. She said that after the boys were arrested and put in jail, she said that she constantly called detectives to say that Aaron was interviewed a lot during that whole investigation. her eight-year-old son, Aaron, without her, without her. Like, they took him and by himself a lot. And she wasn't okay with that. She was freaking out. She was like, I want to sue. And then she said that she thought she should get the reward money

because she said her son's disembodied voice is really what put these three in jail. But the reward money is fake. You didn't put the real people in jail. Exactly. And then she said that the espat was something she was kind of, So at first she was like, I was kind of lying about that because she said, I did go somewhere that day. But she didn't know who she went with or what she did because that afternoon of the espat, the supposed spot. Her boyfriend had broken up with her.

So she drank one bottle of wild turkey, but to herself. So she said she was essentially blackout. She went somewhere with someone and saw people dressed in black doing something. Or maybe she passed out on her couch and had a weird fucking dream. She said it looked like they were touching each other. So she wanted to go home. She doesn't know who brought her home. She doesn't know when or how.

Honey, you had a dream. And then she said she woke up on her front lawn with a second empty bottle of wild turkey next to her. And soon after that, she admitted I was just lying completely about that whole thing. Yeah, you were. And that's when she said three innocent people behind bars because you're a drunk fuck-up. Exactly. And that's when she said that police wanted her to pretend to go to the espot. and that all she wanted to say now to Jesse and Damien and Jason was, I'm so sorry.

Yeah, that's not going to do anything for us, Vicki. I don't want your apology. That's the thing. It's like, you're sorry. You are literally just being like, sorry. This is like that. I feel like Nancy in the scene in the craft where what's his face is sorry. Sorry.

Sorry. Sorry. She flips the fuck out. And then she, well, she kills him. so I don't want to kill anybody, but like, wow. But like, I feel that's what I would have said to. Like, I want to like levitate off the floor. Who's just scream?

I was just going to say, I would levitate in front of Vicky and just scream at her. And I'd be like, how sorry are you now? Like, bish. So, yeah, so that's Vicky. So again, we're having multiple things coming out that are saying, enraged me. That key testimony in these trials was a lie. And people, it is coming out. And nothing is being done about it because Judge Brunette is like,

And then the high court is like, eh. And it's just like, everybody's just like, let's just wipe our hands of it. There's three poor kids that we threw in jail. Who gives a shit? Like, move on. And Damien says it in, West of Memphis, there's really good interviews with him while he was still on death row. And he says, like, I want to be clear, this is happening every day. We are not a weird case. We're just getting more attention. Like, he's like, this is happening to so many people. Wow, that's so scary. And it's so true. So now we want to mention, so we mentioned a bunch John Mark Byers, who was Christopher Byers stepped out. He is married to Melissa Byers. They were the ones that were very eccentric with the press. John Mark Byers in the documentaries, if anyone has watched them, you will see

him being very theatrical and over the top, which to a lot of people was a little eyebrow raising. A lot of people were like, that looks like you are putting on a show. And not actually feeling real emotions, but, you know. So this is, so John Mark Byers was a, people thought he was a suspect from the beginning. Uh-huh. Now, he does have a very troubled past and present. Well, right now, I don't know. I shouldn't say present.

But recent past. Okay. He had a troubled life for sure. So the Arkansas Times found that Byers had been arrested in 177. when he was only 16 years old because his parents claimed that he was threatening them with a butcher knife. Oh, yeah. Okay. Now, by 1987, he had already been married and divorced.

He had two children, and now he was remarried to another woman. Now, a former neighbor of his, who was never IDed, said that she called the authorities about child abuse on him. Oh, no. Because he said, quote, He was whipping Christopher, who was two at the time, so badly I was afraid for his life. Oh, my God. Yeah. And this is Christopher Byers, one of the victims.

Oh, that's so sad. The woman said that she reported these happening tons of times, and she also reported it while they were investigating the murders. Because she was like, just so you know, like, this is the kind of person he is and was never asked to testify. Wow. That's absolute bullshit. Never asked to testify about it. So that same year. in 1987, he was also arrested and charged with terroristic threatening because he assaulted his

ex-wife. Oh, how did he assault his ex-wife? Well, a neighbor called the police and said she was a little concerned because she heard a woman screaming and saw, quote, two small kids outside by themselves. The police show up to the buyer's home. They found Byers and his ex-wife in the home. his ex-wife was laying on the floor, screaming, and Byers was holding an electric shock device and threatening her with it.

Now, this isn't Melissa, right? No, this is his ex-wife. Okay. Now, Byers was convicted of terroristic threatening for this particular incident, and he served three years probation. Oh. Now, as we will see, he's like conviction-proof. That Alabama just, or not Alabama, Arkansas, justice system, huh? Yeah. So July

1992, he was arrested by sheriff's deputies in Memphis and charged with felony cocaine counts and carrying a weapon. Oh. In 92, 93, he was also involved in a huge Rolex scam, like fraud scam

where he was selling like faulty Rolexes. He made a ton of money off of that and he got caught for that. So Christopher's biological father was a guy named Ricky Murray. And he said that Mark Byers never officially adopted Christopher like he claimed. Uh-huh. And he was like, not that that says anything, but like he's lying about that. Right.

And then he said that Mark Byers said on the Mori Popovic show after the murders, because they were all on those shows at the time. Uh-huh. That he had picked Melissa Byers up from work the day of the murders, and that was his alibi. Right. He was like, I picked her up from work. And when I came back, we didn't know where he was. Right.

He said that, so Christopher's dad said that when he talked to Byers, at Christopher's funeral, again, he said that he was at court the day of the murders. Oh. So then he was like, wait a second. Weird that you have more stories than one. So he also said, he also told West Memphis 3.org that he didn't think Damien, Jason, and Jesse committed the murders. Christopher's birth father said that not.

So Christopher's birth father was like, I don't think they did it. Oh, God. That's awful. Now, Melissa Byers, Christopher's mother, was also very troubled. She was like a lifelong heroin addict. she was addicted to a lot of different things. She was charged with putting a gun to a carpet installer's head after he said he wouldn't install carpet in their home until the floors were cleaned.

So she put a gun to his head and told them to do it. Seems rational. That seems fine. After the trials were moved, so after the trials and after they were convicted and put in jail, the buyer's family moved to charity. village, which was near the Missouri line, but still in Arkansas, in September 1994, they were both arrested because they stole $20,000 worth of antiques from a residence nearby. Wow.

Yep. Two weeks after this, Buyers was arrested again and charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Why? He literally forced two teenagers to knife fight. What? He literally stood there and forced one. teenager to fight another. With knives? With knives. And one of those teenagers got seriously injured.

Oh my God. Yeah. That's a thing. And there were several, there were several witnesses to this. And kids that were like, I was like, what the hell is going on? He was like, don't go near them. Like, this little bitch needs to get his ass whipped. I'm so scared. It was a teenager. It was a teenager. Ew. Yeah. A few months later, he was charged with hitting a neighbor's five-year-old so hard that he left bruises. What is this man? Now he claims that this little kid was like doing something and he was over for some reason and that he was like oh and I just like hit him on the butt with a fly swatter like really quick. And the neighbors are like no he had bruises. Like you don't get him. Either way you hit my kid with anything including just like a nasty look and I am ending you so hard that your ancestors are going to

know about it. Like what? Like you're going to sit here and say well like only hit him with a splice water. I mean, like, you hit my kid. Fuck you, motherfucker. That's not your kid. Like, you don't hit other people's kids. You don't hit your own kids. I'm telling you right now, I will end you. You touch my kids. Seriously. I will end you. So that's crazy. And by 1994, the two of them, Melissa and Mark, had 12 misdemeanors. Neighbors had restraining orders against them. And the delinquency of a minor charge was on Mark and the burglary charges for the antiques were on both of them. It's also like, hey guys, you were involved in like a high profile murder. You're not really going to fly under the radar for the rest of your lives.

And also like, it's awful that their son was murdered. I'm not making fun of that anyway. But it's like that happened. You are in the public eye. Right now. Yeah. You didn't ask for it, but maybe don't do all this shit. Because, yeah, because it's like people are going to know about it.

Exactly. And it's not like the two, the buyers is were like small shrinking violets. Like they were loud and boisterous and very. very, which they had every right to be during the trial to be as loud and angry and like, you know, aggressive as they wanted to be. But it's like when you do that, know that people are going to remember you from that trial. So you can't just go stealing $20,000 worth of antiques. And making people knife fighting other people's kids or making two teenagers knife fight and expecting everybody just to be like, okay. How does your brain work that way? I avoid people at all costs. Well, and this is, this is, this is

still an unknown. This is a mystery. Oh, shit. So March 29th, 1996. This is only a few years after the murders. Yeah, like three years. Melissa Byers was found naked and unconscious in their home at 5.20 p.m. Oh, shit. I didn't know that. She was immediately pronounced dead at the hospital. Oh, like, I never knew that. Yep. It was a mystery because no trauma was present and they literally couldn't figure out what killed her. Wow. Now, the state police were called in this time and they began, they began investigating this and they said they were investigating it as a possible homicide. Yeah. So they did find injection marks on top of both of her feet inside her right wrist and in her upper right

thoracic area. Did she OD? They said that, so a witness said that Melissa was taking Dilaudids in Xanax. Uh-huh. And they also said the buyers were fighting a lot recently and that Mark had been cheating on her and had a girlfriend named Mandy. Oh, yikes. Now, in fact, when the police came and searched the home, Mark was standing outside with his girlfriend, Mandy.

Oh. Yeah. He also stated that he was worried he was going to be accused of smothering her. Oh. Why, though? The medical examiner could not determine the manner or cause of death and said that there were plenty of drugs in Melissa's body, but not enough to cause death or an overdose. Okay. So they said she did not die of an overdose.

So is it hard to tell if somebody was smothered? It's pretty hard to tell if they're smothered. Smothering is a hard one to do because it's not the same as strangling. You're not going to have the marks. Right. To me, just to come up with that out of thin air. The fact that he offered that information is like, whoa, dude. Like, that wasn't even on anyone's mind.

So what was it actually ruled as? Well, they also, so it's still ruled as like they don't know what it is. They found a ton of scars. This is sad. They found a ton of healed scar. on her wrists. Oh. So she was obviously having a lot of...

That made me really sad. Obviously, she lost her son. And they also found no alcohol and no opiates in her system, but they did find dilaudid and marijuana. But again, they said nothing that would have killed her. Right. And they said those injection marks could have been from the hospital while they were trying to revive her.

At least some of them were. Okay. But again, no outside trauma. She was found naked. Yeah. And it's just, it's weird. And I think what he said was that they laid down to take a nap and he just woke up and she was like that. Yeah, I doubt that.

So that's weird. Okay. That's very weird. So in 1997, a year later, he ended up getting a ton of hot check charges. So that's when you don't have enough money in your bank, but you're writing a check against it. Right. Because of his indigent status, he never got charged or punished, really. Because they could just say, you know, that that is a reason.

So then in April 1999, so at this point, April 99 comes, he's had all these charges and all these things happening and he's getting away with it. Right. In April 1999, he accidentally dialed a wrong number while making a drug deal. Oh, shit. That wrong number was an Arkansas state trooper. Shut the fuck up. You can't make this shit up. He accidentally called a state trooper and made a drug deal.

And the state trooper was literally like writing someone a ticket on the side of the road. And he was like, and he was just like, and so he was like, yeah, come here, I got the stuff and blah, blah. And he was like, okay, what's the address? I forgot. I didn't write it down. And he just gives his address. And then he's like, okay.

You've got, I have my, I just put my hand over my mouth. You can't get better than that. Wow. He was arrested. Duh. He finally got an eight year sentence that was basically for all the other shit too. Because they're like, can you just calm down? He only served 15 months.

Why? Because life, you know? What the fuck? Because, you know, Jason and Jesse are like railroaded and spend their whole 18 years of prison for something they didn't do. You know, this guy's out there causing a ruckus. And he gets 15 months. So Melissa's parents claimed buyers. So they were like not contacted at all during the investigation. Okay.

And they always thought it was weird. They didn't really know a lot about it. They didn't follow the trial with everything. They were like, we didn't want to know. It was just too hard. Yeah. They claimed that Byers, Mark Byers, beat Melissa more than once. And she would have black eyes.

She would constantly, like, he was a violent, violent man. That is so sad. Like, that is a sad, sad life. It is. It's awful. This, looking into this between Terry Hobbs and Mark Byers, those poor little boys. Right. Because the shit they had to deal with from these stepfathers is beyond.

That makes me sad. I can't even. It's awful. And so Melissa's father. said that it was weird that Byers claimed that he came back from somewhere the day of the murders and just found that Chris was not home right like that was his original claim because he said actually Melissa had asked her father that day to stay with Chris after school because he said can you she said can you stay with him when he gets off the bus until Mark gets home uh-huh and so he was like

okay cool so he said when I got there Byers was already home oh and he said so he so buyers told him Oh, no, I'll get Chris from school. Like, don't worry about it. So he was like, cool, okay. So he went home and he goes, I regret that every day. Oh, that made my stomach just drop. They also said that Melissa and Mark's marriage was in big trouble. He was cheating.

And she wanted to divorce him. And he had told her he would not divorce another woman. Which isn't that real scary? That's ominous, especially with the way she died. And again, I'm not accusing anyone. He was never found guilty of anything. Her death is still a mystery. But again, take these facts that I'm giving you and just come to your own conclusion.

So, yeah, so that's weird that he was not going to divorce another woman. She was going to stay with her parents the Friday she died. And when they called that day, Mark told her that she wasn't feeling good and was resting. And then he called later that evening and just said Melissa's dead. That's all he said. Oh, my God. He told her parents. She was dead by just saying that.

Yep. They said that's all, that's how he put it. Oh, my God. That just made me want to barf. In 1997, a forensic analyst was brought in to reexamine the case of three boys. And he said in regards to Chris Byers, specifically, there was a record that said that Mark Byers reported that he had given Chris, quote, a whipping with a belt before he went missing. Oh.

And he found, so this expert found. three sets of injuries on the buttocks of Chris Byers. Right. He said two were not consistent with a belt whipping. And he said the third set were lacerations that could have been from a belt. But he said, quote, and this is really like this is jarring. This is jarring. He said, quote, because remember, so he's saying I gave Chris a light whipping with a belt.

Yeah, that's not a thing. I'm sure, I mean, in different parts of the country, that just happens. And, like, you know, different strokes for different folks. I was never beaten with a belt. But, you know, like, especially in the South at this time, that was very normal thing. Yeah. I'm not judging. So everybody, calm, calm down.

Yeah. It is what it is. I'm sure people got whippins and they're fine now. You can all calm down. But, you know, this was just something. He said he gave him a whipping with a belt. before he got on his bike and went to play with these kids. So this expert said, quote,

it is further the opinion of this examiner that after having received this set of injuries which tore open the skin and would have resulted in some severe bleeding, the victim would have been unable to walk or ride a bike without incredible pain and discomfort. Oh, wow. So you're telling me that he received this, quote,

light whipping which tore open his skin. And then he caused some. severe waiting. Then he just bopped outside and got on a bike and rode off with his friends. Right. Nope. I don't think so. That doesn't sound right. So that has given people some pause. Uh-huh. And another interesting thing is that they had, um, they, they went and they go really into this in west of Memphis, the documentary. And Mara Leverett, who wrote Devils Not really went into this. If you go to her website, I'll put it in the show notes. She has like a very detailed thing

about this. They originally, so they said that they thought a lot of the markings and a lot of the ripping things were from turtles and other sea, you know, things in that water, animals. But they said there was one thing, especially on Stevie branches, I believe his left eyebrow and his forehead. Okay. That looked like a human bite mark. Oh. And when you look at it, it definitely looks like a even bite mark. And it was just like never really touched upon. And so they brought it up later and we're like, what is this? Because forensic odontology is a really good, it's almost like fingerprints. Right. Everybody's teeth.

You think about Ted Bundy. Exactly. A lot of that was like breaking that case. Right. So they brought that up and it was starting to become out there that they were like, we need to start taking casts of teeth. They took casts of Jason Baldwin, Jesse Muskelly and they didn't fit. None of their teeth fit.

Oh. So then they started being like, we should take casts of other people's teeth like fucking Mark Byers and Terry Hobbs over here. We'll guess what? Terry Hobbs and John Mark Byers in the mid-90s had all their fucking teeth removed. You're shitting me. Not shitting you at all and they both had full sets of dentures put in. And later... Are you fucking kidding me?

Moving forward to Terry Hobbs, because we're going to that next anyway. Later, Pam Hobbs, Terry Hobbs's ex-wife and the mother of Stevie Branch, who later came out and said she believes Terry Hobbs did it. Holy fuck. Yeah. She found a lockbox in their house. house that had a like pack of cigarettes in it, a marble, and a set of partial dentures belonging to Terry Hobbs. And she said, why would they be in a lockbox unless he didn't want anyone to be able to compare those fucking dentures? Because they were partial dentures from when

that shit was happening. He had those partial dentures when the murders occurred. Right. Then he got the rest of his teeth removed and just got a full set of dentures. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's weird. Uh-huh. And Mara Leverett actually details that they had these partial dentures matched up to that bite mark.

And again, I'm going to put the website, the page to it in our show notes. So look for it. It's a good fit. I'm just saying. Oh. And also biting. Like in the Ted Bundy case, Bundy, Bundy, Binding tells a lot of the pathology. of the person doing this crime.

Right. Because biting is not something that a lot of people do. It's not something that biting is rage. Biting is control. And biting is like consuming the person that you want. Like this is something like animalistic. And that's why like Bundy, it fits him. Like this like animal that like can't control himself.

And the way these boys died and if, you know, we'll get into the Terry Hobbs things, the way that some people think that they died, it makes sense. And the fact that it was Stevie Branch who got bitten on the face. And that's his stepfather. Seems a little fishy, I'm just saying. So now we're going to move on to Terry Hobbs. Okay. This is a long one.

I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed with sadness. It's because it isn't just something that happened to three boys. This is like Dean said this is something that still happens to me. Exactly. And we still don't have justice for these three little boys. I like want to cry. It's so sad.

Things really fuck with me. And regardless of what happened here, these three little boys died in a horrific nightmarish way. And whoever it is is out there. Yeah. So November 6, 1994, Pamela Hobbs said that earlier in the day, Terry Hobbs had beaten her with his fists. Uh-huh. She called one of her relatives on the phone. I hate that this is these people's lives.

It is. Isn't that so sad? Yeah. Like it's just like the day your son was murdered, you were beaten. The day that Chris Byers was. was murdered, he was also previously beaten. It's just so much violence. That's the thing.

It's like violence was just so prevalent. And we're not accustomed to that. Like that's not how you or I. I mean, I wasn't raised violently. I was raised in a very off way. Yeah. But violence was not. No.

And it's like I was certainly not. And I mean, that's just how my family did things. Everybody's family does some, you know. Right. And I'm not saying. Spankings and whatever. Like that's a very, people have their own opinions about it.

that's fine. We just didn't grow up with those. And if that's not what you're used to and then it's taken, you're hearing something to this level, it's jarring. It's really jarring. Yeah, it is. It just is. And it's like I'm not, I'm not telling anybody how to parent or anything like that. No, of course not. This is just how I see things that I don't personally, my personal opinion and it's just my opinion. No, because we have the same opinion. I will not teach my children that violence is wrong by committing violence against them. Right. I don't think that is a very good way to do it. But, You know, some people it is. Right.

To each their own. Exactly. But you know what? It's never okay to beat your spouse. No, that's never okay. And it's sad that that was their lives. Yeah. And it's like, I don't think it's right to beat your child either.

I'm just going to say it. But it's definitely, I mean, you can't beat your spouse either. So November 6th in 1994, Pamela Hobbs was hit, was beaten by Terry Hobbs. She called one of her relatives and told them. She said she believed her jaw was broken. That's how hard he hit her. Police said that they did see when they showed up to this scene. Pamela Hobbs had bruises on her face and in the back of her head.

Oh, my God. Injuries. I wonder if she was like concussed. Right? So the relatives that she called contacted other relatives and were like, okay, let's go to fucking Memphis and let's confront Terry Hobbs. Which like good for them. They confronted Terry Hobbs and Hobbs said, nope, I'm not going to talk about this.

Like, fuck you guys. and then went out to his truck and got a 357 magnum pistol. Oh, put it in his back pocket. At that point, Pam's brother, Jackie Hicks, came out of the house and he was like, no, fucker, you're not leaving. Like, you beat my sister. And this was before, was this before they knew that the boys had been murdered? This was a year after.

Oh, oh, okay. So, yeah, it's 1994. So, yeah, this is a year after. Okay. So a fight started between her brother and Terry Hobbs. her brother got Terry Hobbs on the ground and this is when Terry brought out the gun and shot her brother in the abdomen

yeah Oh Hobbs then reportedly pointed the gun at all of the other people there and were threatening them like I'm going to kill all of you too Which I would believe Sounds totally normal When the police came he was arrested charged with assault on his wife

An aggravated assault on Hicks the brother Right So there's that whole thing that shows you what kind of person he is. And then watch west of Memphis when you see, because I'm going to mention to you late soon that he ended up having to do a deposition where because Natalie Mains

from the Dixie Chicks he sued her over defamation and he lost. And when you sue someone like that, you get to open up your whole history, which was a bad idea for Terry Hobbs because he had to sit there and answer to all of this. Right. They ask him about this specific incident And they say, you know, you hit Pam Hobbs. You hit your wife that day in the face.

You punched her in the face. He, no joke, go watch the documentary. I swear I'm going to, like, post the clip of it because it is bone chilling. They say that to him and he goes, eh. Oh, my God. He literally laughs in this little snarky, like I want, like you just want to fucking punch him in the face. And they go, is that funny, Mr. Hobbs? And he goes, well, you know, like you talk about it that much.

It just becomes whatever. But he, it is an involuntary giggle that he does when they say, did you hit your wife? He goes, eh. And it's this like nasty little giggle and you're just like, what the fuck? Like, it is evil as shit. Yeah, that's disgusting. So that's crazy. So then also DNA was eventually found in the shoelaces used to tie up the boys.

They were able to finally use the DNA. Right. This DNA was hair. And it was like tied up in the shoelaces. this DNA, this hair, was a match to Terry Hobbs. Interesting. What it wasn't a match to was Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly. None of their DNA was at that scene.

But Terry Hobbs's was. Probably because they weren't there. Well, and this also matched, so this particular hair, you can see like the DNA, like the typing and everything. It is a match. Uh-huh. It's also, I have to be like right about it. It's a match to 1.5% of the population as well. But it's also a match to Terry Hobbes.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the, that, I mean, they use circumstantial evidence to convict three boys. So why do we use fucking circumstantial evidence again? So I'm just saying that's just how it is. There was another hair found on the scene that matched to a good friend of Terry Hobbs. Oh, what a fucking coincidence. David Jacoby. Weird. Terry Hobbs had hung out with David Jacoby the evening of the murders.

Oh, also coincidental. Now, David Jacoby actually contradicted. Terry's alibi that he had spent a ton of time with him as his home that night. Yeah. Like, David Jacoby came out and, like, messed with this alibi a lot. And they were like, who the fuck is lying here? Basically, he couldn't be consistent with where Terry was between 5 and 9 p.m. It's a big frame of time.

Which is the time frame that they went missing and were murdered. Uh-huh. So here's a couple of the versions. So Terry said that the night of them that they went missing, he searched the neighborhood with his four-year-old daughter Amanda for a bit. and he saw Dana Moore. He said he followed her to her home and met up with John Mark Byers in front of his home before 6 p.m. He then said this is when they figured out the three boys were together.

Now, this doesn't make sense, though, because Byers' missing person report that he filed was at 8.30 p.m. Uh-huh. Also, Byers filed an affidavit saying he didn't see Terry Hobbs during this time period. So he said, I sat there and I talked to John Mark Byers before 6.000. P.m. And Mark Byers signed an affidavit saying, no, I did not see him. So then he also said that he was in the Robin Hood, Robin Hood Woods between six and six 30 with David Jacoby. So that again, that just contradicted his other statement. In one interview, he described 20 to 40 people out searching. And they said there was like four wheelers, motorcycles, bicycles, it was like

tons of people searching. In another interview, he says probably a hundred were looking. before dark. Oh, okay. The three victims were last seen at six, and they weren't reported missing until 8.30 by John Mark Byers, there was not an immediate search at 6, 6.630. Right. So that... That's just a lie. That's just a flat out lie. Yeah, exactly. And then David Jacoby said in an affidavit that he was not in the woods with Terry Hobbs at this time. And his, and he was searching with Hobbs by like driving around briefly. He was like, I did not go in the woods with him. So that's a lie. Right.

He then said that he searched a ton. He was like, I searched so much. And he had many stories about these searches. And one, he said he walked on a path that led to the creek where they were found in the water, but he didn't go there. And then he also says that he never went within 100 feet of where the bodies were found. So which one is it? So it's like you literally are just contradicting everything. Now, and again, this is all just.

What he said. Like in the original trial, you know, we can't take all of this. as evidence. Right. But this is, we're just presenting it like they presented the evidence at the trial. Terry Hobbs, you know, like we said, he beat his wives. He beat his children. He assaulted neighbors. There were accusations of child sexual abuse as well. That's awful. You look, West of Memphis has an interview with Amanda, the daughter. That poor girl. I don't, I didn't look up like an update on her in like 2020. Yeah. But she went through some shit. Yeah. That's really. You can tell that she was really fucked up from having him as a father.

It's really upsetting. And lots of family members came out saying that she had told them things and that, you know, Stevie had told them things. And it's just like really upsetting. It was obviously a house of horrors. Yeah. And I'm not going to go like into detail about that because that this is already a depressing case. Yeah, exactly.

Stuff in it. But like if you want to find it out, you can watch West of Memphis or read Devil's Not or, you know, go to any of these. there was a witness, a neighbor who said that she saw Terry Hobbs with the three boys the evening of the murders. And she said, and she's interviewed in Paradise Lost and West of Memphis, she said she told, no one came to ask her. Right. She was like, when they, the police came, they didn't ask any of the neighbors anything. Which is ridiculous.

Which is crazy. And she was like, that's the first thing you would do. I saw them with Terry. And she was like, and I didn't think anything of it because that's one of their stepfathers. Yeah, exactly. And she goes, but when it all. came out later I was like whoa he's saying that he didn't see them that day but I saw them with them like he was like I know I saw them I spoke to them right so that's really fucked up because he's lying left

and right about where he was right um so there was also a pocket knife that belonged to stevie that he was obsessed with stevie was obsessed with this pocket knife it might have been like a scout pocket knife or something like it was just a special pocket knife yeah it wasn't found on him when he was dead or in with his stuff and they assumed that maybe it was just gone lost like since it was in the water right it was later found in terry hobbs possession that's fucking weird yeah um and that's just weird um and then in west of memphis uh they found three guys who said that terry's nephew uh i think is michael hobbs told them that terry killed three boys in that it was a quote,

Hobbs family secret that he did this. Yep. Now, Michael Hobbs, his nephew, even went under oath. Oh,

said that this was a, like a family secret. In 2013, separate affidavits were signed by Billy Wayne Stewart and Benny Guy. And these affidavits are,

whoa. Now, warning, trigger warning, this is graphic and upsetting. So they said that May 5th, 1993, according to both these guys, they said Terry Hobbs, David Jacobi and two teenagers, L.G. Hollingsworth and Buddy Lucas showed up to his house looking to buy some drugs. That's what these guys said. The transactions happening. And while it was, he says, he says under oath that he saw Hobbs and Jacobi kissing in a truck.

And then he said that it was like a thing that Hobbs was bisexual, but he didn't want people to know that. It was just like this weird thing. Not the bisexual thing is weird. I'm saying that it was like this like thing that like people knew but didn't know. And he kind of was weird about it. Right. What happened after Stewart sold the pot on May 5th, they said that getting back in the pickup, Hobbs de Kobe and the two teenagers drove around. Uh-huh.

They were just smoking pot. They're drinking whiskey. And then they drove into a dirt road by the blue beacon wood, which is where the Robin Hood Hills is. According to these guys, they said that Terry Hobbs asked the two teenagers to get out, in quote, wrestle. Uh-huh. So while this was happening, he and Jacoby were watching. He said that something sexual happened between multiple of them. and this is when Chris Byers, Michael Moore, and Stevie Branch appeared on their bikes and saw it.

Stuart says that Lucas told him that Terry Hobbs screamed, quote, get them little fuckers. Jacoby grabbed one of the kids, started beating him. Hobbs ordered the two teenagers to pull down his pants. It was obviously Chris Byers. And according to Stewart's app of David, quote, Mr. Hobbs walked over to the boy that Mr. Jacoby had been beating and repeatedly bit the boy's penis in scrotum. Oh my God.

Then, quote, cut the boy's genitals. And then he said that the other boys had to be killed because they saw it. Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah, it's really messed up. So apparently, one of the guys who signed this affidavit said they tried to call the West Memphis police investigator Bill Sanders. And he said he wanted to tell him the story, but he never even returned his file. phone call. Keep calling. I know. Now,

that was, what's his name? Let's see. That was Billy Wayne Stewart's affidavit. The other guy was Benny Guy. And he told a similar story. He said that while Buddy was staying at his home in 1994, he confessed his involvement in the crime killings. Buddy was one of the guys that was there, apparently. One of the teenagers. Yeah. Guy said in the affidavit that Hollingsworth, one of the teenagers, also confessed in participating in these murders. And he said that his Hollingsworth actually added a little more details to the whole thing.

He said that Terry Hobbs got really pissed because after they had grabbed the boys, that one of the boys started kicking him to try to get away. Duh. Hobbs hit the boy in the head and shouted, quote, I'm going to teach your fucking ass. Oh, no. And he said that, you know, the same kind of thing happened. There was a beating. There was some awful things happening. He also said the thing about pulling the pants down. These are two separate affidavits.

This is the same thing. And he said, so Guy stated that he sent a letter to prosecutor Scott Ellington in February 2012, putting these two confessions in there. and Ellington never responded to them. Why? So this was all just ignored. That makes perfect sense. So what kills me is it's like, okay, so we can say the same exact thing that we said about the trial with Damie and Jason and Jesse, that this is all, this could all be bullshit.

This could all be people just talking shit. People lie on affidavits. They do it. They did it in the trial. Yep. But why did we take those first ones into account and convict three boys and put, you know, one of them to death and two of them into life in prison. But now that it's about Terry Hobbs, we're just not even going to look at it.

Right. Meanwhile, there's way more evidence. That's, and it's like, and on top of all that, we have, like, tons of background here. We have witnesses saying that they can contradict what he was saying. His hair is at the scene of the crime. You can't contradict anything that the three boys that Damien, Jason, and Jesse were saying, because there was nothing to contradict. Right.

Because it was no fucking evidence. Right. We have fucking hair that takes them. them out of the scene. It conclusively says that the three of those, the three of them were not the source of that hair. No. So it's like, wait, so why can we listen to it? It's, it matches Terry Hobbs. It matches 1.5% of the population too, but it matches Terry Hobbs and David Jacoby. And his friend. Like, that's a little weird. And like, if those affidavits are true, his friend wasn't there. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But he was at his house that day. So maybe some hair got on him and that's how it

got there. Exactly. So that's. So Pamela Hobbs and her family think he is the murder. Her whole family thinks it. And he's just walking around. Like, what the fuck? And they said they started believing this very shortly after the crimes. Okay. Like Pamela Hobbs was like, I started coming to this conclusion like pretty early on.

And were they still married? They divorced pretty quick, but yeah, they were still married at the time. Terry Hobbs was arrested for drug possession in 2003. He was reported twice for abusing his daughter Amanda. And Pamela Hobbs took out a rest of her. straining order against him in 2005. Uh-huh. Like I said, they are divorced.

And they actually removed Terry Hobbs' name from Stevie's tombstone. Oh, wow. I'm glad that makes me happy. Yeah. Because there was, like we're going to get into this in a second. There was many reports of how awful he was to Stevie. Oh, no. And Pamela said that she used to, like, Stevie would have trouble falling asleep and she would

lay with him in bed. Yeah. Until he fell asleep. because you do that as a mother. Uh-huh. And Terry would get pissed because she was, she was taking care of Stevie too much and not paying attention to him. Like he had a grown ass man.

He had a ton of jealousy about Stevie because Pam says that Terry told her, you're spending too much time being a mother and not enough time being a wife. Wow. Wow. I don't even have anything to say about that. Yep. So, so because of the DNA evidence, all the statements about Taylor, you know, all the statements about Perry Hobbs, like all this shit coming to light,

Damien's legal team filed a legal motion for a new trial. Because they were like, here's new evidence that takes us out of the scene and puts a different suspect in it. So maybe you should listen. So his defense team, they had experts.

They announced all the findings. There was a press conference November 1st, 2007. And no new trial was granted. Which is absolutely fucking ridiculous. Yeah. And you can see them presenting this case to the Supreme Court in the West Memphis, West of Memphis documentary, it's infuriating. So I think everybody should go watch it. But after this, Natalie

Mains, like I said from the Dixie Chicks, came out publicly and said, Terry Hobbs did this. Like, she was like, it's pretty fucking clear. He decided to sue her because he said it for defamation and slander. Like I said, that was a really. bad idea because the shit that came out in the sworn depositions that he had to go through was so damning for his character. The what? Are you going to tell us? Oh, yeah.

I was trying to say it quiet. I was like, are you going to tell us? She's so, she's like, wrapped in a blanket. She's like, are you going to tell us? I was like, what? I need to know. I'm going to tell you. Okay.

So a few of the main things. So Judy Sadler, who is Stevie's aunt. said Stevie told her that Terry locked him in a closet and beat him. Oh, my God. She said that he forced Stevie and his sister Amanda to watch porn. Ew. Masturbated in front of them a lot and threatened to kill members of the family if Stevie told anybody. Now, Sheila Hicks, who was Stevie's other aunt, said that Terry Hobbs whipped Stevie leaving Welts.

She said that he would force him to play dead cock. which meant lying on his back with his arms and leg raised and when his limbs would get tired and he would try to lower them he would terry would quote whoop him what the fuck she also said that stevie talked about how terry and pam got in a ton of fights and stevie saw terry strangling pam oh my god um these poor kids yeah and she also this aunt also said that she witnessed sexual abuse of amanda uh-huh uh so marie hicks who is stevie's grandma that there. She's interviewed in the west of Memphis, too. A lot of these people are. She said that Terry Hobbs was physically and sexually abusive. He used drugs. He was an alcoholic. Said that when Amanda was young, that she confided in her that he was sexually abusing her. Amanda Hobbs gave a horrific account of sexual abuse and said she had like repressed a ton of it and didn't even know what was real and what wasn't because she was so traumatized. Of course. That poor girl. Yeah, it really really.

is sad. At one point in the documentary, she looks just like her mom too. She looks like Pam a lot. Thank goodness. She says that she said like she feels really like hung out on a limb. And the interviewer's like, what do you mean? And she was like, I feel like crazy. Like mom went when Stevie died. She was like, I feel like I'm going crazy. And it's just really sad. You can tell she's just like your whole life is just a fucking ball of trauma. Like she's just destroyed. Sharon. Nelson, who was Hobbs's girlfriend, said that Hobbs said that he had found the bodies before the police, but left them there. Yeah, okay. He says, he denies this, but she's like, no, he told me, like, he found them and then left them there and let them be discovered. David Jacoby was the one who gave all the contradicting statements saying, like, no, I was not in the woods. He said he only searched with him for a bit before it got dark. And he also said that when Terry came to his house, he saw the three boys in the street behind him.

Uh-huh. Even though Terry said that he had never seen the victims that evening and said that he went on like long trips in the woods with Jacoby. Right. And Jacobi's like, no, no, we didn't. So there's that. Then Mildred French. This is another one. That's a dope-ass name.

Well, and you got to watch him in this, the deposition when he goes to this, because he is such an asshole about this. So Mildred French was an elderly neighbor of his. Oh, no. During the 80s. She said that she heard a woman screaming and then she heard a baby crying. Oh, no. So she went over there and she was, she's such a badass. She went over there.

And she was like, what the fuck is going on? And he was like, you stay out of my business, Boban. He was like, I'm going to, she was like, I'm going to make it my business and I'm going to call the police the next time I hear you hurting them. Like, I'm not dealing with this. So then she said she was in the shower one day And he attacked her in her shower and sexually assaulted her Oh my God Yes

And she said he also killed her cat Charges were filed for this assault And he never really denies this attack But he like won't talk about it He's like it's the past Yeah Yeah it is your haunting past buddy He said he didn't kill the cat

But he won't he won't And when you see him in the video of the deposition, and he gets, they were like, oh, we want to, they say, like the investigator says, here's the testimony of Mildred French. And they give it to her, to him. Yeah. And they're like, you read it over and then we'll talk about it. He literally flips the page up and then slams it shut and just pushes it away. And they go, well, and they go, are you reading it? And he goes, no, I'm not reading that.

And she was like, so do you remember Mildred French? And he was like, maybe, I don't know, maybe. and they were like a neighbor of yours that and he goes oh yeah some old lady i don't know yeah okay and you're like you douche canoe asshole and they interview her in that documentary and she's like fuck that like she's a badass so on december 1st 2009 the case against natalie maines when he decided to sue her was dismissed she won hell yeah uh the judge ruled that hobbs should pay her $17,590 and 27 cents for her legal expenses.

Does that ever happen? Terry Hobbs said, quote, I don't give a damn what the judge says. I'm not paying the Dixie Chicks a thing. There was also the biting evidence that I mentioned earlier and that he had his teeth pulled in the mid-90s. Yeah, so coincidental, Terry. Yeah.

Well, now, so all of the parents believed that three boys that were in jail did it. Mm-hmm. Davy and Jason and Jesse. Now, Pam Hobbs came out and said she does not believe they did it. She believes Terry did it. Right. Or at least had the capacity to do it, but she doesn't believe they did it. Right.

John Mark Byers was an avid against them that they did it. They did it. They did it. He suddenly turned around and said, he thinks Terry Hobbs did it. Uh-huh. And that the three in jail did not do it. He actually wrote Damien a letter apologizing to him. Wow.

Damien actually said he forgave him and was like, you lost your child. I can't like you did what you thought you was right at the time and he was like I'm not going to hold on to that shit because he's a Buddhist he is he's such a Buddhist so I don't have that kind of there's a clip of Terry Hobbs going into like one of the hearings like for probably his deposition or something and John Mark Byers is in front of an entire bunch of reporters and goes there's the baby killer now oh shit and like and Terry Hobbs turns around and gives him a look that could kill me eye and I was like he's going to kill John Mike fires run i was like what the fuck it was a scary because some people are just pure fucking evil and when you realize it you see it all over them uh and then when asked about it like who he thought was responsible for this like what he thought happened uh john mark byers said quote Terry Wayne hobbs um I don't know how much clearer I have to make it wow so yeah so what ended up happening to get these three out of jail. We're reaching the end now, so

everybody can breathe. Shit. Was they got out of jail because at this time, as you can see, nothing was happening for them. None of their appeals. All this crazy shit is happening on the outside, and they're like, hey, what's up? All this evidence is being brought forward that is exonerating

them, basically, and putting more people in there, they're not getting any of this. There's all these celebrities working on their side. There's this mass amount of people that are on their side just working for them, and they're just sitting there rotting in jail. So they ended up using an Alford plea.

So in November of 2010, the Arkansas State Supreme Court did order a new trial after the DNA evidence failed to connect them. Okay. The court ruled that they could present the new evidence at the new trial to try to say that they were innocent. So while this is all coming into fruition, this is when the Alford plea deal was coming into fruition too. So Steve Braga, one of Damien's attorneys, suggested that they try a very rare legal move. This is the Alfred plea. So basically it's where a defendant pleads guilty but maintains

their innocence. So where this plea began, because there's always a precedent, was a 1970 Supreme Court case where Henry Alford was indicted for first degree murder. He claimed he was innocent. And he said he was aware that witness statements and evidence would not really make him look great. And he said he was, you know, he was stuck in this like, I know I'm innocent, but I know I'm going to get convicted because this is pretty damning shit. But like, I really didn't do it. So he said he wanted to plead guilty. And he said, I pleaded guilty on second degree murder because they said there's too much evidence. But I ain't shot no man, but I take the fault for the other man.

we never had an argument in our life and I just pleaded guilty because they said if I didn't they would gas me for it and that is all I'm not guilty but I plead guilty okay and it's north carolina versus alfred so basically he was saying I don't want to get the gas chamber right so I'm going to get the death penalty if I plead not guilty and go through this trial uh-huh so I'm just going to plead guilty so that they don't kill me but I'm not guilty okay so he's pleading guilty while maintaining innocence so the arkansas prosecuting attorney said that this deal was not awesome, but he said, quote, it certainly was not a perfect revolution in the case for the state, but it was much better than having three trials trying to convince 36 jurors of the

defendant's guilt, using old evidence, failed memories, changed minds, dead witnesses and the parents of two of the victims who now say they believe the defendants are innocent of the crimes. Right. So this is the state saying, yeah, this police sucks because we're going to let what we believe are three child murderers out. Yeah. But like the other option is that all these people come forward and say that they don't believe that they did it and that evidence proves that. And then we have to convince that they just, I wish they were able to do that. It's ridiculous. So August 19, 2011, they entered the Alford plea and walked out of court free men.

Good. But Jason said he almost said no to this deal. Because on paper, he's still technically a murderer. Yeah. Because he said I was ready. He said I was not ready to plead guilty to the crime. because he's like, I didn't commit it. And I won't plead guilty to it.

He said and still says it wasn't justice, but he said that he did it for Damian because he said he was having such a horrible prison experience. He was like, we obviously prison sucks for everybody. He was like, his experience was far in a way different than what me and Jesse's were. And he was like his health was failing. I was worried that he was just going to die in prison. They were going to kill him anyway. And they were going to kill him.

So he said to save Damien, he did it, but he otherwise wouldn't have agreed to Right. And the plea makes it so the three can't sue the state of Arkansas for imprisoning them for over 18 years for a crime they didn't commit. I wish they fucking could. They were imprisoned for over 18 years, Damien on death row for 18 years. It's unbelievable. And so now basically it's like, so now on paper they are three convicted felons. Of murder.

Of three counts of murder. of three capital murder charges each of child murder yeah um so now like i said buyers thinks that terry hobbs did it he thinks the three are innocent so does pam hobbs um jason baldwin became the co-founder of proclaimed justice which you can find at proclaim justice dot org and it's a non-profit that aids those wrongfully convicted of crimes once they decide to take on a case they'll fund the reinvestigation and legal representation. Because he was like, I want to help people that were in my shoes. Yeah.

He also was pursuing an undergraduate degree and planned to go to law school. Wow. Because he studied law in prison. He just wants to continue to overturn and prevent wrongful convictions. He travels everywhere speaking for the abolition of the death penalty and also the abolition of juvenile life sentences without parole, which we've covered a couple of cases like that. Um, he's married to a woman named Holly who he, like, met while he was in prison. I love love.

Um, and they just like appears to be doing amazing. Amazing. Damien, because he wasn't outside of a concrete cell for over a decade, uh, his eyesight suffered immensely. Oh, no. It was damaged a lot. Now he has to wear sunglasses 24-7. He can't see more than a couple of feet in front of him because your eyes are like training to

see far all the time, like by looking at far away things. When you are only looking at something that's right in front of you for 10 years, your eyes stop training to see far. Right. So they can't see far anymore. What are you looking at? I think they're in there. So that's a little creepy pause that Ash thought she saw my kids under the door in the adjoining room where we're recording. But they're not there.

And I just opened the door and they're downstairs. I swear I saw feet under there. I was like, that's creepy. So, yeah. So Damien has a ton of eye issues. he suffers from PTSD. He had a traumatic brain injury in prison from beatings. He said he had such constant beatings from guards that he would be, quote, pissing blood.

He also said he suffered crazy teeth issues because they don't give any medical or dental care on death row. And they just told him we can either pull them all out or you can suck it up. And he just sucked it up. By the end of his prison sentence, he had embraced Buddhism. And like I said, was meditating five to seven or eight hours a day. He married a woman named Lori Davis in prison in 1999 in a Buddhist ceremony. Yes. They are still married.

They wrote a book together. Yes. They exchanged love letters. Stop. She was like, she was like very successful and very like, you know, with it and like just heard about the case, studied the case. And then messaged him or messaged him in the 90s. She I ammed him. She sent him a letter in prison.

He said that he loved that she. started it by apologizing for invading his privacy by sending him yeah and he was like and that just struck me as like that's really nice of her because like nobody thinks of me is having any rights so like it's nice um so they're like in love and married um they live in new york city uh he did live in salem for a while and he said he if he felt like he belonged there because it's like the epicenter of like yeah um he made a career out of the study of magic with k That's cool. He's written three books.

The latest one was high magic, a guide to the spiritual practices that saved my life on death row. And it's basically showing people like how he survived with meditation and like ritual and all that. He does retreats that's focused on spiritual magic. He's done art. He's gotten tons of tattoos he always wanted to get with Johnny Depp and stuff. He's blows with Johnny Depp. Yeah, like he's just like they're living their lives. They came out of here.

They went in in 93. they came out in 2011. They didn't know what a fucking cell phone was. They had to learn everything. Yeah. And one of the things in West of Memphis is Holly and Jason on the couch in the hotel after he was released. Oh gosh. And they're sitting there and his mom comes.

My goodness. Oh, my God. He opens the door and he goes, Mom! And says it like a little boy and hugs her. And I like wanted to die. I was crying. I was like, seriously, it's just the sweetest thing ever. And he was able to hug her. He was able to hug her. He couldn't hug his mom for 18 fucking years. And he was so happy to see her. And she like maintained like through the whole time like he is innocent, you know. And then Holly, his wife was

saying like he was showing his mom his new suitcase. Yeah. And Holly said, I was so confused because I gave him this new like fancy suitcase. Yeah. And he loved it. And he said, I've never had a suitcase before. Oh my heart. Like it just like broke. And she was like, it's little things. like that that I don't think of. Right. And Damien said he would get up in the middle of the night sometimes and sleep in the bathroom on the floor because he just wasn't used to that much space. Like space was freaking him out. Yeah, it makes sense. So he would get up and literally lay on the floor by himself in the bathroom to be in like a confined space. Wow. So it's like they had to go through so much shit coming out of there. Right. So much. But it seems like they're doing okay. I think Jesse had a little mishap

with driving without a license. That's okay. Jesse. There's no update on that. But, But other than that, they've been staying in a, they've definitely, I mean, Jason and Damien are definitely thriving. I think, I hope Jesse is too. Yeah. But there's not a lot on Jesse. But, uh, you know, I think this is a tragic case. Yeah. Nobody has seen justice for these little boys' deaths.

I hope somebody gives a deathbed confession, to be quite honest. But it's like, it doesn't even matter. Like, but that won't even be justice either. That's the thing. You just want to know. It's one of those like the John Bonnet and stuff. You just want to know. Yeah.

I mean, maybe. No, I don't know. I know. Do we know? I don't know. I know. But either way, that is the end of the West Memphis 3. The West Memphis 3 slash four parts.

And I hope you guys enjoyed it. Go watch some documentaries. Horrified by it. Go read Devils Not. Go read Damien's books. I highly recommend Life After Death, his book. Jason also wrote a book. I'm going to post all these in the show notes.

go read Mara Leveritz Devil's Not, go watch West of Memphis, the Paradise Lost documentaries. Don't go see Devils Not the movie because it's really bad. Oh my God, horrible. But definitely go look up this case and go find out all you can because it'll blow your mind. For real. But yeah, so thanks for that. Well, go ahead and follow us on Instagram to see our last post about the West Memphis 3. At Morbid Podcast.

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