Morbid - Half-Hanged Mary

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

In the depths of American history there are few examples of mass hysteria that loom larger than the Salem witch trials of 1692. As horrific as it was, it was far from the only example of witch-hunting in Massachusetts’ history. In fact, ten years before hysteria over black magic gripped the village of Salem, similar accusations of witchcraft were aimed at Mary Webster of Hadley, a small village in Western Massachusetts. Thank you to the incredible Dave White for Research assistance.ReferencesClancy, Hal. 1977. "In good old days, wicthes would hang for a May snow." The Boston Globe, May 14: 1.Judd, Sylvester. 1905. History of Hadley. Springfield, MA: H.R. Hunting.Manning, Alice. 1976. "Witches in the Connecticut Valley: a historical perspective." Daily Hampshire Gazette, December 15: 35.Marshall, Bridget. 2003. "Mary (Reeve) Webster, the "Witch" of Hadley." University of Massachusetts Lowell. Accessed August 28, 2023. https://faculty.uml.edu//bmarshall/Mary%20Webster.htm.Mather, Cotton. 1967. Magnalia Christi Americana. New York, NY: Russell and Russell.Perera, Lisa. 1992. "Before Salem, Valley had witch trials of its own." Daily Hampshire Gazette, May 16: 22.Smith, Anna. 2019. The Witch of Hadley: Mary Webster, the Weird, and the Wired. October 15. Accessed August 28, 2023. https://www.massreview.org/node/7575. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And we just discovered our soundboard. Guys, we have had... It's morbid. Oh yeah, and it's morbid. Guys, we have had this like roadcaster. Yeah, it's a roadcaster. We've had it for a while now. Yeah. And we knew, I knew those little buttons could be sounds, but I thought you had to put them on there. I did too. And they're pretty colors and I like them. I'm pink. My little sound effect is pink, which makes lot of sense. We just went through and we're like, what the fuck? So, guys, there's even, and we're not going to bombard you with them. No, of course not. I would love to, but we're not going to. But we found this one. So we might be bombarding you with that one. That one has to be used, I feel. Yeah,

that one. We're all agreeing. And then, like, every now and then can we do like a clapping? Like, I had a good idea. Everyone's so excited about my idea. And you know what? I really wish, I wish during the BTK series, we had the Womp Womp. right? Like, what a missed opportunity. I mean, like, go back and add that in. Honestly, I should just edit it. And then there was no water in the house. I love, you know, I used to have this teacher in sixth grade or seventh grade, doesn't matter. But he was like a dick. And whenever we would laugh at something stupid, because like we would laugh at stupid shit all the time, he would write on the board small things and use small minds. And boy, was he right. Because honey. That's a lot. It's so much fun. I love it. Oh, but we just, we had to let you in on that because we're like, we got to tell everybody. And you're our everybody. So everyone. Everybody, you got to hear this. It's hilarious. But those little things for our intro were perfect for each other. I think they were perfect. We won't. Trust me. We're not going to like overdo this. No, it's fine. Because I know some people like, oh, shit. Is this going to be a thing now? It won't, I promise. We just wanted to tell you about it because it's fun. But every now and then, because that is fun. Every now and then, I'm going to throw one of those in, just. because it's here and it's fun. And we can put like that sparkly one at like really inopportune times to be like hilarious. Oh, it's that it's so good.

And then he was sentenced to life in prison. That works really well. That's so funny. I think it works really well. Okay. So we'll we'll move on from it. But we digress. Glad we could have that moment with all of you.

I'm glad you're just joining us for the first time ever. Welcome. We've never used sound effects before. So hello. Glad you could join us on this one. So I think we don't have like a ton of, because this is technically our like mini. Yeah, even though we don't do those anymore. We don't do them, but it's like still kind of mini.

I do have one little correction that I told you about before this. I was so embarrassed. When we did, I did Dorothy Stratton last week. So good. And I was like, oh yeah, and she's buried in the same cemetery as Marilyn Monroe. And you were like Hollywood forever. And I was like, yeah, we were both wrong. Which is insane.

Yeah, because Marilyn and Dorothy are both buried at. Pierce Brothers Westwood Village, Memorial Park, and Mortuary. Which I feel like it's like one of those things that you have believed for so long. Yeah. They were in Hollywood Forever that I was like, no. That's not right. Always thought that Marilyn was in Hollywood Forever. Well, this is what makes it even worse.

I have visited Marilyn Monroe's grave. Like, I've been there. Hollywood Forever. Touched it. Like, I was there. Yeah. And I thought I was in Hollywood Forever, Senator. That I was not.

And you were wrong. So I, that's shocking to me. I'm like, wow, look at that. I've been saying forever, oh, I've been there. I haven't been there. Oh, such a bummer. I've been to that other one. Yeah.

But Maryland's there. Yeah. And Dorothy. And Dorothy. So there you go. So there you go. That's great. Yeah.

So we just wanted to correct that because I think someone pointed it out and we were like, what? No. And then Ash looked it up and we were like, shit. So, thank you for that. We appreciate it. And I think, yeah, I think today's episode is this one. is kind of crazy because I think it's one that a lot of people can somewhat relate to on some level. Oh.

If you've ever been in a relationship with the wrong person, particularly the wrong guy. Check. If you've ever had your anger at this guy misdirected towards a girl. Which I feel like most of like, and I think it's because like you haven't had like. I never had like a serious long term relationship with a dude. So I think it's like, I think people who have can understand that like sometimes when you get in like this toxic relationship with a dude. Yeah. And there's another girl involved.

Sometimes your anger that should be at this guy gets misdirected at the girl because it's just, we all know. A lot of us have been there. I've been there. Yeah. I will fully admit that. And you look back later and you're like, well, shit, I should have been mad at him. We both should have been mad at him, but we were mad at each other instead. This is one of those scenarios.

It's like, tale as old as time. It is such a tale as old as time. And again, since we've all been there, like reading this, I was like, oh, guys. And it just, this one ends really badly. Yeah. Obviously, because it's on the show. Because here we are. Because hello, we're called morbid.

But reading this case, I was like, the whole time, I was like, guys, you can do better. Just leave. Just leave. Like, both of you, just tell him to fuck off and leave, but they didn't. Oh, no. So it's unfortunate, and it has a very unfortunate ending. So this is the case of Rachel Wade and Sarah Ludeman. All right.

Sarah Ludeman is the victim in this case. Okay, that's weird because my case for later involves a Sarah as well, and she's the victim in my case. Wow. So it's the week of Sarah's. Sarah's. And there was a lot of Sarahs in the witch trials and stuff, too. Yeah. Sarah's get a bad rap.

They do. Sorry Sarah's out there. I know. That's rough. This is a love triangle, as I. kind of set up a little bit. Love it. This love triangle was between Rachel Wade, Josh Camacho, who we don't care about because he sucks. Okay. Um, and Sarah Ludeman. Uh, this is like very much about the, this is, this takes place in 2009. So it's very much in, is it the same year? Did you just see my face?

My case also is in 2009. Oh my God. We didn't even know that. No, because we don't tell each other. No, we don't. That's insane. That is crazy. Look at us. We're on the same wavelengths. Uh, so this is, This is right smack dab in like the internet age, the MySpace age, where you don't have to talk to someone face to face. You can just sit there and have a huge knockdown, drag out fight over MySpace and nobody is ever really having to do anything. And that like orange comment section. Of course. Of course. And this is the thing.

It's like, and then it began the whole thing with people posting photos to make other people angry. Yes. You know, you find out your boyfriend's cheating on you because the girl posts a photo. And it's like, oh, no. thirst trap. Exactly. And we can, and again, we can all relate. I think everybody who's was part of that age is nodding is sitting there going, yep, yep, yep. So this involves all of that. It takes place in Pinellas Park, Florida. So we're going to talk about Rachel Wade first. She was born February 27th, 1990. So at the time of this whole thing, she was 19 when this all went down.

Okay. Her parents are Barry and Janet Wade. Her dad was a truck driver. Her mom was a special ed teacher. Oh. She was beautiful. She's blonde, like tiny, like very like bombshellish. Gulls. She just has that look up, like you look at her and you're like, wow, okay. You're like, hate you. Yeah, hate you, but like get it, girl. Yeah. And, you know, guys were all about her. She was very, very popular. But she was also kind of like a bad girl. So she had the whole thing going for. Bad girls club. As a child, everyone described her as like super sweet. goofy, she loved Disney, she wanted to be a princess. She was the typical, you know, just like good little child, you know? Later, she became a good student. She was very active in extracurricular

activities. Everything was going swimmingly. Seems like everything was just going to keep going well. Yeah, that's her. All right. This is, that is such a MySpace photo. We got duck lips. Yep. And we have an arm holding the hair on the other side of the head. We have, you know how when you would take your hair and you would comb it through your hair halfway and then flip it to the other side and hold it there like, pull the arm back. Like I'm so ravaged right now. And then she's making that duck lip fish. Yes. Yeah, that's her. And that's her in a nutshell. That's who she is as a human being. We also have top and bottom eyeliner. Oh, yeah. Of course you do. What a time. Oh, I loved a bottom eyeliner. Me too much. But I look back now and I'm like, oh. And I have like, yeah, no. Yeah,

no. Yeah, no. It's no good. So again, later, she was a good student. Everything's going well. It's all looking great. Then she turned 15. Oh, and apparently that's the magic age where she was just like, fuck the world. Let me tell you it is. And for you it was as well. So you know what? This all checks out. Yes. Yeah, 15. She hit the rebellious stage. Oh my God. Yes, girl. Same. And she hit it hard. Same. She hit it like a Mack truck hits a wall. She hit this thing. All right. She and her parents started budding heads over every single thing. She was close to them before, and now she's fighting with them about everything. She dropped out of high school.

Okay. She started running away. She was running away multiple times, like something like 14 times or something. And she was hanging out with a tough crowd, always with older boys. Is this sounding familiar? I'm just saying. Much to her parents chagrined. They were not psyched about this.

And in fact, the same year that she took. turned 15. She was caught in a car with a 19 year old man, because that's a man. That's a man. She's a child. That's a man. Who's man says this? He was arrested and he was charged with a felony sex crime. Oh. And she was 15 years old. Yikes. No good. Not good. No Bueno. So this was a bit of a pattern that began with her too. Okay. She really craved attention from men. Okay. And I think it's, It seems to me like she is one of those people who is a beautiful person naturally. Yes. She has that all going for.

She was gifted very much with that. I think you get told that over and over and over and over again because I'm sure her parents were telling her you're beautiful. I'm sure people were telling her that. It starts to become all that you think you're worth. Your main source of. Your worth lives and how you look. Yep.

That's why. And I'm not trying to be like, this is how to raise your kids. I'm just telling you this is what I always try to do with my girls. Yeah. Sure, I tell them they're beautiful because they are. Mm-hmm. But, and I want them to be, like, confident and know that they're these beautiful little creatures. Absolutely.

But that's not their only good quality. I always follow it up with. And you're so smart and you're so funny and you're so creative and you do this. Like, you just try to follow it up with stuff, especially with little girls. Do you know where I learned that? Where? Jessica Simpson's book. Wow.

Jessica Simpson has a daughter named Birdie, and I think that's like the cutest little name ever. And she said that she learned not to tell her, like, I think she had a talent show or something. And she was like, you looked like you were having so much fun up there instead of saying, like, you look beautiful up there. Because it's like. Place the importance elsewhere as well. Yeah. So it's like, of course.

And to me, it feels like when it becomes a thing where they're craving attention for men like that and they're relishing in that attention. Right. They're needing that attention because that's what they think they're worse. Exactly. They're not putting it somewhere else, which is a bummer. I totally got that. And it's something that's very easy.

to do as a parent, like to do the other way by accident. Because I constantly want to tell my kids, like, you are the most gorgeous creatures that have ever walked the face of the planet. You made them. Of course, they're beautiful. So it's like, it's so easy to do that. Right. But just throw like, you're so smart and you're so funny and you're this and you're that. Yeah, we all love a little. But unfortunately for Rachel, she was, you know, she really liked having boys chase her. She liked boys fighting for her attention. She needed them to be interested in her all the time. It was where she placed everything. All right. It was her main source of happiness and fulfillment, which is sad. That's not good. That is, that's very sad. So by the time she was 16 or 17,

she had been detained by the police several times. Some of these times for assaulting her parents when they were in fights. What? Yeah. So she was really going down the tears. Yeah, seriously. The same year, 16 or 17 years old, she told them that she was moving out and moving in with a boyfriend. That's hilarious, I would have said. Well, and at this point, they were like, We'll pack for you, princess. Get the fuck out. So they were just like, bye. Good.

Good luck, Rach. You can't assault us anymore. And let me tell you, Rache didn't do anything great with her life. So we'll just say that. Yeah, I saw the first pictures and then I saw some later. And I was like, I guess it doesn't go well for her. Did you get a mug shot in there? Because it's not going awesome.

I actually didn't. Yeah, there's one in there. So that boyfriend didn't last. Weird. Crazy. Right? I know. When you're 17, no way.

Yeah. So nuts that it's 16 years old. It didn't last. For anybody who it did last. for you, man, but this one... I mean, it does sometimes. Also, she's a chaotic human, so it's just not going to work. This is very different.

These two fought constantly because they were children, essentially. He later said, one fight ended where she held a knife to his throat and he dared her to use it, and she just dropped it and ran right crying. But we'll see later that that's like kind of an indication of things to come. Why would you ever dare somebody holding a knife to your neck to do it? Because he obviously thought she was bluffing. But imagine if she wasn't. honestly with her right she probably wouldn't yikes so they ended up breaking up in 2008 that goes without

saying shocker and during this time in 2008 she became reconnected with a boy that she actually grew up with okay named josh camacho yes uh she had known him her whole life it's not like they hung out all the time but they were like they just suddenly reconnected and all of a sudden they were like ooh like we have a lot in common what up you're hot you're hot yeah they were into it all of a sudden So before she becomes like fully reconnected with him, she kind of like saw him out and they started talking a little. She decided, she was like, you know what, I'm going to try to turn this around. Okay. So she got her GED.

Oh, good job, girl. Which good for her. She got a job as a waitress at Applebee's. Awesome. And she got her own apartment. Wow. And she was like, I'm going to keep this job. I'm going to be independent because she was very independent.

Okay. And she was like, I'm going to do this. And then she starts talking to Josh. And it all goes down. Slowly is slipping down and down and down. So Josh just drags her down, which we're going to see Josh drags everything around him down. So that's just what he does. So that's Rachel, and that's how she became connected with Josh.

Okay. Let's talk about the other part of this triangle, Sarah Ludeman. Okay. Sarah Ludeman was born December 7, 1990. Her parents were Charles and Gay. They're a cab driver and a nurse, respectively. She was super daddy's girl. Like very, she was her dad's best friend.

They were like, he describes her as like his partner, like his like little sidekick. They were just bros. Wow, what's that like? Which I love. No, that's so sad. But and when you find like when you think later, you're just like, that breaks my heart. No, yeah. Because also she was an only child's.

Okay. Like she didn't have any siblings. She was teased a lot growing up. Basically she's the exact opposite of Rachel. Okay. She did not grow up being this blonde bombshell that was just national. like had it. Right. She had dark hair. She was, what bothered me is every single thing I read about this was like really emphasized how Rachel is this petite girl. Of course. And that Sarah is bigger.

Sarah is also not big at all. She's just a normal size person and Rachel just happens to be petite. Right. Exactly. Which is fine if you want to describe it as Rachel's petite. And then there's Sarah who is like very normal, like average. Not normal is a weird thing to say. But like, I just feel it was weird that they focused so hard on how Sarah's so much bigger and Rachel's so much smaller. I'm looking at a picture of her right now and she is a very regular-sized girl. But it was, I think they focus on it maybe because as we'll see later, I think the insults that start getting thrown around between the two of them focus a lot on how the stories told her fat a lot. It's just one of those insults. But and I think it's also they get in fights.

So it's like really trying to hammer in that Rachel's this tiny little thing. and Sarah's like this monster. Of course. It's how they put it. And, you know, it's just not true. Right. And it just bothered me. I'm like, stop focusing on this.

Yeah, that's annoying. But she did get teased a lot growing up because her weight would fluctuate a little bit. And we all, you know, like the chubby stage when you're little, kids can be dicks. Yeah. But she did, you know, when she got into high school, she was very well liked. Everybody, she was very nice. She loved animals. I guess she was like very kind, very empathetic, like just one of those people who should work with

animals. And she desperately wanted to be a vet when she grew up. Okay. So she worked hard. She got always, like, all A's for it. She was like, I'm getting my grades. I'm going to vet school. She specifically attended Tarpon Springs High because they had a veterinary program that would like help her get in. So she never had a boyfriend. She just wasn't interested in dating. Because again, she was really focused on her life. And her parents said she was very nurturing, just kind, loving, goofy, sweet, everything you would want a daughter to be. Basically exactly what a vet should be. To be honest, I have all those qualities.

So once, one night in the summer, she went to Chick-fil-A with her best friend. Yes! And as they sat in the dining area, one of the cooks in the back was coming out for his break, and he looked at her, and he smiled, and he gave her a little wink. And then he said, my name is Josh, huh? And that boy was Josh Camacho. I knew it. Sarah immediately was like, holy shit.

Because it's not like she was looking for guys' attention. So I don't think she would even notice if guys were paying attention to her, but it just wasn't on a radar. Yeah. But he did it in such like a big fashion and like this like different way. Like he just came out and gave her the wink and everything that she was like, ooh. You're going to notice that. It immediately was like, oh, shit.

She's like full swoonage. And again, she's never had a boyfriend. Yeah. She's like, you know, it makes me sad. And when you're younger, like anything, like that is so exciting. Oh, it feels so exciting. All these fucking movies where shit like that happens and then it's happening to you. Yeah.

And you're like, see, he's winked at me and now it's going to be this love story. Right. So immediately puppy love, they started talking. And they immediately exchanged numbers, texting, flirting together all summer. Aw. Then fall came. Oh, this was going to fuck me up. And he stopped.

All of her friends said he would not acknowledge her or give him. her affection in public. He would only do it in private. So that's horrible. And she has never had a boyfriend before. And he's making her feel like this is normal. Right. This is what a relationship is. So she doesn't understand what's going on. I think she's not happy with it, but she's like, she's kind of desperate for his attention at this point. And she doesn't want to ruin it. Exactly. He was an absolute dick. He controlled what she wore, where she went, who she talked to. She was only allowed to wear pants. She couldn't wear shorts or skirts. because he didn't want other men seeing her legs.

And her parents had heard of Josh, who had a big reputation as a bad boy and a playboy. He loved the reputation, by the way. He loved being like the bad boy. Of course. He had tattoos. He took those shirtless mirror picks. So bad. Where he had, yeah, it's just yucky.

They hated this. Her parents. Of course. They were not psyched about it, but they were trying to like just go with it and trying to like. So they were even like, you know what, we want to get to know him. Like, let's get to know him. We're hearing things, but maybe we should just get to know him for ourselves. So they tried.

Good for them. And he was a dick to them. Like, he really didn't want anything to do with it. That's good. He would like kind to talk to them, but he was a dick. And that's so hard. Like, that's so hard when you're trying to show your parents that, like, you like this boy. Yeah.

It's just an absolute dick. Like, I can tell you that's happened to me. That was every boy I ever brought home was a dick. And you're just like, can't you be normal for like? one second just in front of them. Just try it. So they just didn't mesh. But Sarah's suddenly changing. Uh-oh. She's all of a sudden not really sure if she wants to be a vet anymore. And she doesn't really know. She's worked her whole life for it. And then she's like, you know what, I'd like to transfer to Pinellas Park High School. Because that's where he goes. That's where

Josh goes. Of course. They don't have a vet program. No. So suddenly her whole life was about Josh. She's, her grades are slipping. She's starting to get. a little mouthy. She's just, everything's changing. Her father was referred to Josh as the rat. Oh my goodness. That's what he would call her, which I was like, I respect that. I love that so much. I respect that so hard. That's something Papa slash your dad would do. 100%. Yes. 100%. And now Rachel and Sarah knew of each other. Like they, now they were going to the same high school. They ran in like similar circles. Sure. But they were like we said, polar opposites. Literally the polar opposite. So they were acquainted.

But they were not friends. Now, while Josh is talking to Sarah, he's dating Rachel. Okay. But in his mind, and he'll say it later, oh, they were, I was just sleeping with them. What they thought was what they thought, but no. What a douche back. But neither one of them know of each other. They don't know that the other one's going on.

So Josh himself, just to give a little more background on him, he already had a child, and he was a deadbeat father to this child. Oh, good. So he's definitely someone to be all in on. because he's really killing it. Like the baby's mother was literally, like he has literally never spoken to this child, never acknowledged it, nothing, never helped with this child, nothing. That's shitty.

Which, you're a shitbag. Yeah, 100%. He and his brother were actually known for being this way and being assholes. Like, they were just known for their reputation. Okay. They would use girls for money and other things and always have more than one girl at a time. This was just their thing. They were also incredibly possessive and abusive.

in relationships. Uh-oh. A friend of Josh's said any girl he was involved with ended up, quote, supporting him, buying him clothes, buying him shoes,

and paying his cell phone bill. Oh, come on. Which is less like, why, ladies? Why? Right. And when you see him, you're like,

he ain't it. I don't understand. I haven't even looked up a picture of him. I don't understand. But then, and I say that, because it's true,

you'll look at him and you'll be like, what? Right. But these guys just, they can do it. Well, because I was going to say,

If I look back on some of the guys that I dated and I was like so upset over like so infatuated with. I could ring my own neck for the dudes that I like really went to bat for. It's like, are you fucking kidding me right now? Okay. Here I am on the record. Sorry if you're listening, but your high school boyfriend, like, you're gorge. And I was like, what the, I was probably seven years old being like, what the fuck is this bitch doing? And he was like a, he was a horrible, horrible boyfriend. A horrible boyfriend. I was spilling the tea at seven. So it's like, and again, that was a I was a little younger than they were, but you go to bed for these dudes because they convince you that it's worth it.

Right, exactly. And it sucks because then you look back and you're like, what? Like, why did I do that? Come on. So both Rachel and Sarah's friends said they never understood the thing with Josh. All of the friends are like, we didn't get it. We don't know what they saw on him. I can't see his face in this picture.

I just see his abs. So like I get that, I guess, when you're a teenage girl. But it's not. It's nothing. And they said they never got a good vibe from him. They were all a little worried. They knew his reputation, but neither one of these girls wanted to listen, of course. So, of course, he's playing both of them.

And it really worked out for him because Sarah was always labeled the good girl. Yeah. And Rachel was the bad girl. Of course. Sarah had an early curfew. And early being like 12, which is like not an early curfew. No, that's not. But she had a curfew because she was living at home with her parents.

Right. And they were like, yeah, you have to come home. So it worked for him because she would go home for her curfew. And then he just go stay at Rachel's apartment. Exactly. So it really worked for him. So early shift to late shift, basically, and neither one knew anything, any the wiser. Right.

So he saw Sarah as the weaker and easier to mold of the two because she had never had a boyfriend again. And she was the good girl. So he told her again what to wear, how to think, who to talk to. and she just went with it. Now, I can't picture him doing that to Rachel. Rachel, I don't think he did the same thing with Rachel. I think he worked a different angle with her.

And I think he was just like, I'm the bad boy, you're the bad girl, we're supposed to be together. And she just fell under his spell. Okay. Because she really went to bat for him. Uh-oh. Now Sarah started even molding herself to him like Anne Perkins from Parks and Rackle. She'll just like mold to her boyfriend. Yes.

She was dressing like him. You can tell. like him, the whole thing. And friends said she did like a complete 180. They didn't even know her anymore. Then the fights between Sarah and Josh began. Okay. Now, she was actually detained and questioned by police a few times for their public fights. Oh shit. Her fights with other girls on his behalf. It was just getting really ugly. Josh punched her in the face once and admitted it. And she didn't want to press charges. What? Yep. He was physically assaulting her more and more.

She would never want to press the charges. He punched her in the face. And admitted it. What? Admitted it. And he also broke up with her several times and then would just lure her back. Of course. He was a fucking monster.

Yeah, he's horrible. Now, at the same time, he's sleeping with and pretending to be with Rachel this whole time. Right. Now, Rachel posted some photos of her with Josh out of nowhere. Like one day, she was just like, here's the photos and just posted them on MySpace. Right. I don't know what came over, why she decided this was the time she was going to do it. I don't know if he had, in my mind, I'm like, did she do it because she was like, why aren't I allowed to post photos of us? I'm just going to do it. Or if he told her to do it, because I could see him being like, I want to see you two fight.

Yeah, probably. I could definitely see it. So she posts the MySpace photos and Sarah sees this and it's like, what the fuck? Like, who the fuck is that? So she confronts him and he's basically like, yeah, I'm sleeping. with her. What? Whoops. I'd be like, cool. Get the fuck out of my apartment. She was pissed, but she was pissed at Rachel. At the wrong person, of course. And it's like, no, get mad at him. And I understand it's like one of those things. But still. You don't learn it until later in life. No, you don't. This is when Sarah started freely posting her photos with Josh. And Rachel did not take it well. No, because she thinks this guy is her boyfriend. Of course. And she's changed her life for him. Of course. So in a MySpace blog, because do you remember those? I do. MySpace blogs.

Yeah. Those are where the magic happened. I was right at the end of MySpace blogs. I was going to say you weren't fully immersed in the Myspace situation. Who boy, the MySpace blogs. That's where people would like really like air their shit. Yeah. And in hers on June 17th, 2008, Rachel wrote, when we first met I was madly in love but since then things have changed you called me names you slept around I deserve so much better which I'm like yes you did you did did yes but then Sarah commented on that blog and wrote found better oh which I was like oh shit sick burn so they were able to somehow get each other's phone numbers I'm sure either they found it in Josh's phone oh yeah we're able to find it out from other people or Josh just handed him out because he liked seeing this happen. Yeah, 100%. Because I wouldn't put it past that fucker. No. Now, they started

texting and calling each other, fighting like back and forth. Oh, no. Of course, over Josh. So, the first voicemail that Rachel left for Sarah said, you're fucking with me when you fuck with Josh. Seriously, I'm letting you know now you're either going to get fucked up or something of yours is. Stop being a bitch. Uh-oh. Which it's like, girl, damn. Okay. So that was. That was the kind of things that Sarah was getting from Rachel. And then Sarah would taunt Rachel. Okay. So Sarah and her friends would go to Applebee's and sit in her section and then just harass the shit out of her. That's like kind of funny. They would literally like spill shit on the ground for her to clean up. Or they'd like put her their foot out and make her like trip with shit. Like in Lizzie

McGuire when she gets her cafe job. Exactly. You're welcome. And I guess there was even, I saw like an interview with one of their, with Rachel's friend, I think it was. And she was like at the time there was this song called Girl Fight, which I was like just everybody remember that. Girl Fight? Yeah. Well, they went to Applebee's and there was karaoke and her and her friends sang that song to Rachel. So it's all like, this sounds a lot like the town I grew up in and like what girls would do in the town. It's all like very just high school shit. Like it really is. It's all. I mean, they went to, I guess at a Taco Bell once they were like went up to her car and silly stringed her. Oh, yeah. Like stuff like that. So it was getting to the, I'm sure it was,

it was pissing Rachel off that like she was getting, you know, but Rachel was also coming right back. They weren't, neither one of them was the aggressor. They were both of them coming at each other. So they slashed each other's tires and shit. Like it got crazy. Yeah. A lot. So Rachel on August 26th, 2008, left another voicemail. And this one said, seriously, I told you. I told you. you to watch your fucking back and not to chill with him. Now your ass is mine and I'm guaranteeing you I'm going to fucking murder you. Oh. I'm letting you know that right now because you know what? Josh might have played me but bitch I'm going to play your ass out too. Watch. Oh, you know what they call that? Yeah. Premeditation. Yeah, they sure do. And I'm just going to

quickly play you a little clip. Oh, you have that voicemail. So you can hear like the real, the real like fury behind her voice. because I think it's important to hear the fury behind her voice. I also just, like, need that. Yeah, you do. So. All righty. That kind of just, like, really lays it all out.

That escalated so quickly. And also, imagine getting a message like that. Yeah. I would not watch out my window. I would go to the police. That is, I've never received something like that. Well, like, how many times have you been like, oh, my God, I'm going to murder you? But you don't leave it on a voicemail.

No, no, no. And I'm not saying that. But I'm like, oh, yeah. And it's also you don't say, I'm guaranteeing you. I'm going to fucking murder you. Yeah, I've never said that to anybody. And being like, watch, I'm literally going to murder you. She said, I swear on my life.

Yeah, I swear on my life, I'm going to murder you. And then there's another voicemail that's from Rachel that says, I'm going to find you and I'm going to beat your ass. He can get anything he wants from me. You still got your mommy and daddy's curfew, bitch. Why do you run your fucking mouth? Anyway, are you that pathetic? keep talking shit Sarah. I'm going to

fucking teach you. I'm telling you now. So you want to say that she's pathetic, but he punched you in the face and you didn't want to press charges. Exactly. It's like I just and she keeps saying and she's making such tangible threats in these voices.

Such tangible threats sitting there being like I'm going to teach you. Like I guarantee. She said I guarantee you. I guarantee you. On my life I'm going to murder you. Like girl. That's not going to bode well for you later. Also, just don't say that. people. So then there came the MySpace photos, more MySpace photos, that really set Rachel a flutter. Okay. So Sarah and Josh went to New York City. They posted photos. Yeah. And I guess

there was like photos, but she got another voicemail that said, and I have this one too, and I'll play it for you because I think it's important to hear her like. The fury. Yeah. But sometimes it's hard to hear. So it says, how do you like my, or no, excuse me, Sarah wrote as, the caption on here. How do you like my photos? My man, not yours. Which is no good. So she got another voicemail from Rachel from this one. And it has a similar vibe to it. Right. So here it is. Yeah. So in case you couldn't hear parts of that, she's basically saying, I look better than you. You know, you still have your mommy and daddy's curfew. What would he ever want from you? Like I have my own place. I have my job. Which to me, I'm like, so you're trying to convince yourself.

of your worth. Because if you have to say that to somebody else, then you're convincing yourself. The way she's speaking to him, like, you definitely did not speak like that. No, like, she's literally acting like she has like, she's, I mean, she's, like, she's, like she's tough. Yeah. And she's not tough. Right. As we'll see, this girl is not tough. Well, I was going to, I'm, you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but I'm looking at her, and I'm like, I would not be scared by these messages. And honestly, you can look at her later in her police interrogation interview when she's wearing a little cardigan and crying her ass off pretending that she's you're not tough no she what she is tough she's tough on my space she talks

a big game voice mail right but when it comes right down to it she's not too also doesn't it kind of sound like do you i obviously don't think that she wrote it down but it sounds like she's reading it really does it's like a script she's like i'm going to fuck you up because i have i do more things than you and i'm going to fucking fuck you fucking up fuck i have shelter and you don't I can offer him my kitchen. I have my own bathroom. I have hamburger helper in these cabinets. And it's like, bitch.

And you listen to it. And it's just, I want to be like, girl, he's cheating on you. Right. Like, this is the main problem here. The main problem is Josh, not Sarah. No. And it's like Sarah, the main problem is Josh, not Rachel. Right.

You two hate each other. That's fine. You don't ever have to be friends. But like, fuck his world up. Don't fuck each other's up. that could have just ended so differently. And they could have been sitting here like we are right now, like remembering like, oh, God, do you remember that girl you hated?

Exactly. And be embarrassed about how you acted. But it went somewhere totally, totally different. So keep going. So April 14th, 2009 is when it really just, like, they just really started going hard at each other. Rachel was texting her and rubbing it in that she was with Josh. She would text her. They throw a status up when they were with him.

It just became this whole thing. And you know what the shittiest part about this all is? He is sitting there and enjoying the show. He loved it. Of course he did. And then he turned into a big old coward and tucked his tail between his legs when shit hit the fan. Shocking. Now, they, and Sarah's a mess over this because she's really upset.

It's her first boyfriend. Right. And this, what a hell of a way to start. Yeah. And so she's been a mess. And that night on April 14th, 2009, she saw Rachel, write a MySpace thing, like one of those MySpace like blurbs that was there that said love and my boo.

No. And she lost it. So that night, that afternoon, there were, there was texts that Sarah sent to Josh. Okay. She sent one at 106 p.m. that said, whatever, Josh, you get so mad at me for everything, but you don't give her, but you don't give a shit when she puts something up or says something. You always believe her. Oh.

And then she wrote at 108 p.m. It's like no matter what I do, she's always much better. It's like then why are you pining for his attention? Like, you could get somebody else so much better that actually cares about you. So at 113, she sent another text because he's ignoring these. Of course, because he's a fucking asshole. And she wrote, all we fight about is her or something that has to do with her and it sucks. I hate fighting with you.

I love you so much, but the shit hurts. No response. Girl. So then, now that was at 1 o'clock in the afternoon at 6.36 p.m. She writes, but him again, because he's not writing. She writes, you say you love me, but you don't have the decency to text me back. Yeah. No response.

It's like that in and of itself should tell you. But then, eight o'clock, two hours later, he just writes, bring the movies. Are you fucking, and she. And she ran out the door to his house. No. And you know what? It's because we can listen to this and we can be like, what the fuck, Sarah? We've all been in that position.

And from Hines, like now we can say, what the fuck, Sarah, we've all fucking done that shit. Totally. Totally. Like younger us have all fucking done that shit. I did stupid. I let so many things go with my ex. Oh yeah. He full on had another girlfriend for like upwards of a year. Yeah. Found it out. I took him back. Right. And it's like, and I got like into it with the girl. Like I've done this. That's why this case, I was like, I feel for this whole situation. For sure. Because every, and I feel like so many people can. It will resonate with so many people because we've all been stupid teenagers. And it's so true because you don't get it. You can sit there and say,

like, why would you do that? But we've all, like I said, I've been there. And now we can say, no. Like, it's so clear now. It's so clear as an adult. It's when you're in a healthy relationship that you're like, what the fuck was I doing? I once dated a guy that told me, I like showed him like an old picture of myself and he was like, wow, you used to be a lot thinner. And I continued to date him. My gosh. My ass continued to date him. My God. My thick ass continue dating him. And then I was like, you know what?

Goodbye. And now you're like, what the fuck? And now I'm like Ashley Nicole. How dare you? I watched my ex have a, or no, excuse me, listen to my ex at the bottom of the stairs. He said he was going to the bathroom. He went upstairs. Yes.

Had a full on conversation with his other girlfriend, which I heard the entire thing. And he told you it was like some dude. And then he told me he was listening to a voicemail. Oh my God. And I believed it. And you were like, but why were you talking back to it? But in my heart of hearts, I knew it. Yeah.

Like, I knew it at the time. I was like, you just talked to another girl right in front of me. Yes. Like, I knew it. It happens. And also, that was the LAPD officer, by the way. Just, that's why I shit on the LAPD. I was going to say, if you wonder why we shit on the LAPD a lot.

Because, you know, they suck. So I'm just saying, but I'm just saying this to point out the fact that Sarah, of course, we can look at this and go, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah, come on. But Sarah was doing what every teenager does when they feel like they love someone and you feel wrapped up. Because they're both like 17, 18 years old. They're like, you know, at this point they're like 18, 19. Yeah.

So it's like, but you're still in that like. No, you absolutely. And this kind of guy can wrap you up and really make you feel like he's worth fighting for. And it's like, it's just so tragic now. Yes. It just sucks. This case sucks to look at afterwards. Yeah.

Because it's so avoid. Even Rachel herself, I've seen. interviews with her now and she's like, fuck. Of course. And she'll say it right. Oh, right. Like, I should have just talked to Sarah. Like, I should have done it.

It's like, yeah, you should have. It's too late now. Yeah. Like, I'm not giving her anything because like, fuck her. But yeah, we're going to see. So she runs out to be with them after not talking back. She's pouring her hat out to him. And he's giving no response.

And the first thing he says is bring the movies and she goes running. Also remember bringing movies places? Yes, right. So he had told Rachel he couldn't see her that night because he was babysitting for his sister. I bet he was with Sarah. He was because he told her to bring the movies. Yeah. So you're like, I bet he was.

So according to Rachel, she was walking her dog that night, and Sarah drove by her on the way to Josh's house and yelled something like, stay away for my man or something of that sort. Okay. And Rachel said she got scared, which I don't know if you just listened to those voicemails. Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and say that girl wasn't scared. No. I don't think she was scared. And she said to what's her face, she was like, or I didn't mean to say what's her face, she said to, I keep getting them confused.

Yeah. Sarah. Sarah. No, Rachel said to Sarah. She was like, you're like acting like you're this tough ass bitch. And it's like, but so are you. And then you're going to say you got scared. That you got scared of her yelling like, stay away from my man or something like that.

That's all you've been yelling at each other. You literally told her you're going to murder her. Like you told her that. And you're afraid of her? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. So she said she ran inside and she grabbed a steak knife. and she put it in her purse for protection. She then called her ex-boyfriend, Javier Le Boy,

and asked if she could go to his house because she said she was scared to stay alone. Okay. So he was like, sure. Come over. Sounds like a weird story. So around 11 p.m., she's driving there, and she drove past Josh's sister's house, and Sarah's car was there. Uh-huh.

So she's pissed. She's really mad. She's like, oh, so you are babysitting, but with Sarah. So Josh, his sister, his sister's friend and Sarah, all saw Rachel drive past the house multiple times over and over again. She kept going around. Then she texted Josh. She said, now I know why you're not talking to me because you got her.

So Josh texted back, that's right. I don't like you no more. Why are you down this street? Go home. What? So Rachel replied with, no, I'll wait for her to go home. Which is no good. Uh-uh.

So meanwhile, his whole plan for this was he was like, go home, get the fuck out of here. he was going to hang with Sarah till curfew and then just go over Rachel's. Yeah, that was his plan for the night. Yes, I believe that. So Rachel's acting insane right now because she's driving around and around and around. Like keeps going by. She's texting him. She's going crazy because she's snapping.

Again, we've all snapped at this point with this kind of situation. Did you ever do a drive-by? Of course. Everybody has. And she kept driving around and around. So Sarah waited to leave until they thought she had finally, like, gone away. And she called her parents and told them she was going to be a little late. for curfew. And her parents were like, well, you need to get home. So it was close to midnight,

but it was before, that she was leaving in Josh's sister, whose name was Janet. And her friend asked if she could bring them to McDonald's. And she was like, sure. So on the way to McDonald's, Sarah got a call from Rachel. And she put it on speaker with Janet and the friend in the car. Rachel was screaming, saying she was going to kill Sarah and like several other things. she also heard apparently she said on that call I'm going to stab you in your Mexican boyfriend Oh Which is like whoa okay

Is she saying that about Josh? Yeah like she's saying I'm going to stab you both Like she let that's what the friend said they heard Okay I'm going to stab you and her And him so so that's no good So she also heard from her So she hangs up the phone she's like whatever

So then she hears from her friend Ashley Sarah does And Ashley tells her that Rachel was standing outside at Javier's house in his driveway, and she was like, just telling you, that's where she is. Okay. So Sarah was like, I'm going to go there. And I'm going to tell her like, fuck off. Don't go to a place. She just called me and said that. Or the person who just said they're going to stab you is.

Don't go there. So she goes there and she, with the two, with the sister, Josh's sister and her friend in the car. Now I remember this case. She pulls up and she sees Rachel leaning against the car, chatting with two other dudes. So Sarah slams on the brake and jumps out of her car. And the two other girls jump out as well. Rachel grabs her knife that she had with her out of her purse. And they just charge at each other.

Oh, no. And at first it looks like it's like just like, you know, punching and pulling and like br-ber-br-br-br-br-and it's like quick. Yeah. Very quick. Like, blah. I'm just like nuts. People in the driveway and right next to them said they saw Rachel make two stabbing motions

and Sarah ended up stabbed in the shoulder and her chest. Oh, no. Sarah immediately just like unlocked, stumbled backwards towards her car, and called someone. Uh-huh. Who did she call? Josh. Not 911, not her friend, not her parents. She called Josh.

And he answered and she said, it hurts. And then drop the phone. Oh, no. That's the only thing she could say. Oh, my goodness. Then she literally fell out of her car and onto the pavement. Javier. who was Rachel's ex-boyfriend,

pulled his shirt off, just ripped his shirt off, and tried to use it as, like, a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. Oh. So he, and then somebody, I think it was Janet, Josh's sister, or her friend. I can't remember which one. Yeah.

It's like different everywhere you look. That's fine. It's the one who called 911. Sure. And this is the 911 call. So what she's saying there is fucking Rachel. She fucking stabbed her. And the dispatcher says,

okay, where on the body is the patient stabbed? and she says she's been stabbed in the chest, she's just trying to breathe. Now, during this, Rachel is having a full realization about what she just did and is in a state of like absolute panic and shame and guilt, right? Yeah, good. No. Oh, she's not doing any of that. What is she doing?

She's doing none of that. No, she calmly, according to all witnesses there and the officers who later came on scene. Because now there's like eight people there. Walked back to Javier's porch very calmly. But before she got there, she realized she was holding the weapon. she just used to violently stab another woman in her hands. So she threw it over the side roof into the neighbor's yard. Then she just sat on the porch on a bench and said, I'm done, according to witnesses.

What? And just chilled there. She's a full-blown sociopath. Yep, I did it. Now, yeah. So Rachel got a call from Josh, like, right away. And he wanted to know where she was. He was like, what is going on?

Like, what's happening? because I just got a call from Sarah that said it hurts. Like what? And she said, I'm at Javier's house and that's it. Yeah, that's all you need to know. That's blood on Josh's hands. Exactly. And he immediately knew something bad happened, obviously.

So he drove to Sarah's house and told her parents that Sarah got in a fight. And he told them where she was. Yeah. So Sarah's parents went straight to the scene, but the police had already arrived and held them back. And her dad later said, like, I knew she was dead. Oh, my goodness. Now, Josh and Sarah's parents drove all together, the three of them, to the hospital to meet Sarah there. Now, as they're walking in, Josh all of a sudden says, I'm not going in.

And they were like, you're not going in. And he was like, I can't see her like that. So her father literally was like, you fucking asshole, you're the reason she's in there. I would hold them in by his ankles. And he was like, it's because of you that she's like that. And Josh was like, no, I'm not going in. I'd be like, wow, you really proved that you're a piece of shit through. And even a dick in this situation. And when they came out of the waiting room, out to the waiting room later,

he was just gone. Oh, I believe that. He just pieced. He just dipped. So police detective Mike Lynch spoke with Rachel at the scene. And he said she was just sitting on the porch, hadn't moved, nothing. She was just smoking a cigarette. Okay, I was waiting for you to tell me that she was smoking a cigarette. Of course she was. Because I pictured her just like sparking one up as she walked up there. She didn't say anything about the knife. She just was like, yeah. Like shit happens. And then she asked one of the other officers for a cigarette. Like, that's how chill she was. Are you kidding me?

During her police interview, she said Sarah, Janet, and Janet's friend came rushing at her altogether, and she said Sarah somehow managed to land like three punches on her before she even began to try to defend herself. Oh, totally. She's such a hapless victim. She then said that she had only brought the knife to scare her. She remembered grabbing it out of her purse, but didn't intend to use it. She said she didn't even know where she had stabbed Sarah.

you just remember suddenly seeing Sarah run away from to her car. Okay. So she was like, I didn't do anything. I don't know. Believe that for a second. She then said she never saw the stab wounds and basically was like, what? Yeah, girl, you were on the phone like a week ago saying you were going to murder her. So then she said after the ambulance left that Janet and her friend had attacked her.

She was like, after the ambulance took Sarah away, Janet and her friend attacked me. Probably because you just killed someone. Because you stabbed her friend. Like, are you real? Like you don't understand why that happened? You want us to feel bad for? for you because people hit you after you stabbed someone, like, after you murdered someone? And this, well, this whole time, she doesn't know that she killed Sarah. Right. Because so far,

no one's pronounced her debt. Right. So this whole time, she's sitting bored. Like, if you look at this interview, police interview, she's got her, like, elbow on the side of the chair and her head on her fist, just sitting there, like, leaning, like bored. She does not realize. Like super whatever. The repercussions that are not to come. She finally admitted, because they were like, where's the fucking knife, Rachel. And she was like, okay, well, I threw it. And they were like, you threw it where? And she was like, I don't know, the neighbor's house. And they're like, into the neighbor's yard. And she's like, I don't know, in the neighbor's yard. And it's like, okay. So then 2.29 a.m. Sarah was pronounced dead from stab wounds to the heart because that chest one had nicked her heart.

Oh, my gosh. The stabbing was so aggressive that the inviolent that the knife bent. Wow. Now, back at the station, Rachel thinks Sarah is still like. She has no idea. Also to like stab somebody like that with a steak knife. Oh yeah. Like obviously that took a lot of force. Oh yeah. Like a lot of, and that's anger and that is like, that's a lot of shit.

She rushed at her too. Oh yeah, she did. Now this is what happened when they told her what had happened. And this was a close to 6 a.m. is when she found out. A change of tune. And basically she went on and on and on. And then they just suddenly were like, well, we have something to tell you. Oh my God.

It's crazy how they tell her. Here it is. So then, halfway through, they do this little number. She's not going to follow you anymore because she's dead now. He was literally like, own this. Like, she's not going to hurt you anymore, Rachel. You poor, poor victim because you fucking murdered her. Oh, my goodness.

That even, like, just like hit me for a loop. Right? Through me for a loop. Like, when I saw that, when I heard that, I was like, oh, like, it's just like, she's not going to follow you anymore. because she's dead now. Because you fucking killed her. Which is obviously like you're talking about a real human being, but it's like she needs to be whiplashed with that information. Absolutely. Even after this, you'll see, she does not take any of this seriously. None of it.

Wow. Even afterwards. So you can see and immediately, you know, the whole time she's sitting there talking, she's like, you know, blaming it all on Sarah. It's all Sarah. She was the aggressor. I was just trying to get away from her. It's all self-defense. Poor me, for me, for me. And then all of a sudden they're like, well, you killed her. She's dead. And all of a sudden, she's like, and it's like, oh, okay. So now you suddenly turn into this like whimpering mess. I was going to say now you're a delicate flower. Get the fuck out of here. So she was immediately arrested and immediately charged with second degree murder. Wow. I'm surprised she didn't get first degree because of those messages. I know. I feel like she maybe could have, but they were a little bit, I think they were like

a couple of months before this. So I think it it factors heavily into the trial. I would think so. So back at the station, that whole thing is going on. she ends up getting 15 months in jail before trial. And apparently she was very nonchalant about all this. She was making plans for after her jail sentence. She said she planned on marrying Javier, apparently. I don't know if he's going to want to marry a murderer girl. And it's like, I'm sorry, do you really think you're going to get 15 months and you're just going to serve, you're going to get time served and you just get out of here?

Took somebody's life. You literally murdered someone. And she had no idea that when you violently murder someone in front of other people, there are big consequences to that. She was riding on this self-defense thing and keep, she just kept saying it's Sarah's fault. Sarah's fault. Sarah's fault that she died. And I'm just acted in self-defense. Whoops.

Can you imagine still after like realizing that you killed someone blaming them? Oh yeah. And she thought this trial was going to be this quick little thing where they would wag their finger at her and say, don't stab people again. And then she just walked home and Mary Javier. So June or July 20th, 2010 is when her trial began. Her attorney, Jay, I think it's A. Bear, but it's spelled like Herbert. I think it's A Bear, though. It's fancy. Wanted her to take a plea deal because they were like, there's a lot against you. You're in a lot of trouble.

Oh, I don't know about eight people saw you stab her. And then you said, I'm done after and smoked a cigarette. And then we have all these voicemails of you literally telling her, I guarantee I will murder you. And then there's also those witnesses that hurt in the car, you say I'm going to stab you before you stabbed her. so I think you should take a plea deal. I think that's probably your best interest. And she was like, nope, I want to tell my side of the story. She didn't take the plea deal? Didn't take a plea deal.

Wow. So the prosecution. That's balzy. Very dumb and very balzy. That's like Ted Bundy dumb. Yeah. You're like, what the fuck? Different level.

But the prosecution was led by Lisette Hanowitz, who was like a real badass. Love it. She brought up the knife being bent. She was like, she bent the fucking knife. That's how hard she stabbed her. So her claiming I had no idea that I even stabbed her. Wrong. Shut the fuck up.

And she said, here's the history where Rachel has stated numerous times in front of others and on audio tape that she was going to murder her. Right. The defense used the stand your ground law, which was in Florida at the time, and said Sarah and also kept harping on the fact that Sarah was bigger than Rachel. Oh, my God. So she was scared. She's also, she's not that much bigger. She's not. She's not.

down everybody. Like for context clothes, I think she's smaller than me and I'm not huge. She's a very average human being. Yes. Like, come on. Sarah's just tiny. I think it's just Rachel's small. I think she's like my height or maybe a little taller than I am. Yeah, she has a very similar build. And they said she's like 110 pounds. So she's just a small girl. Yeah. But we don't need to like focus on it. No. They also brought up the times when, this is the defense, brought up the times when Sarah was aggressive with Rachel. Like, you know, the Applebee's. and the Taco Bell stuff, the stuff when she was being the aggressor. But that's so, like, passive, aggressive.

And they're going to bring it up because it's the only thing they got. Right. That's all they got. Then they brought up the fact that Sarah went looking for Rachel at Javier's. They're like, she's the one who showed up. That's okay. Javier said about Rachel after the stabbing, he said that she showed no emotion. So the fact that she's like, I'm going to marry Javier.

I'm like, he's scared of you. He's like, I'm going to testify against you so that you can't marry me. He said right after it happened, he said she had. quote, such a blank look on her face, it didn't look like she was even there with us. Like, that's scary. And witnesses there, including the two boys Rachel was speaking to in the driveway, said that Sarah didn't charge Rachel. And that Rachel went up to Sarah's car first.

I believe that. So the two dudes she was conversing with or even like, no, no. That's not the truth. So about the knife, Rachel, because they were like, why did you throw the knife? If this is self-defense and you had no idea that you even stabbed her, whoops, oh my goodness, why didn't you say it? Right. Why did you throw the knife somewhere and get rid of the evidence?

Right. And she said, quote, I don't know what, I don't know what happened. And I didn't want anybody else to get a hold of it. So if you don't know what happened, how did you know that somebody could get a hold of it? So you didn't even know you stabbed Sarah, but you threw the evidence over the, okay, right. That doesn't make any sense. So Josh took the stand. Wow, I'm surprised you showed up.

Did they have to like sequester him? Right? Or no, that's the right word. Subpoena him. Subpoena, yes. So Josh took the sand. He said he was sluished. sleeping with a lot of girls. And sure, they probably thought they were his girlfriends, but that

wasn't his problem. Oh, my God. The attorney asked him if he loved Sarah because they said it was pretty clear that she, at least thought she loved you. So did you love her? Don't tell me. And on the stand, he said, I think I did. Which I don't believe. I think he perjured himself there. Also, you could have perjured yourself further if you're just going to perjure yourself in general and just say yes, because she's dead now. But no, we're just going to give a, I think I did. I think so. And also, I mean, his nobody and his, like, he doesn't and no one around him think that he is at fault at all here. No one does? Well, everybody who is, like, all the girls' friends and all the families there, everyone who's like his, his crew there are the ones that are like, why was this his fault?

Oh, okay. And it's like maybe because he like inflamed this whole thing the entire time. Men are always innocent. No, he didn't do anything wrong. Women. It's women. And they actually did try very hard to get him charged with something in this. They couldn't come up with anything that they could charge him with.

And it's true. I'm going to, legally they can't. I don't think he deserves jail time. Well, and also, I think he does. Do you? To be honest, because this never would have happened without him. And I don't think he deserves like a full on prison sentence, but I think he deserves to be punished. I can see why you think that.

But there's no legal way to do it. Right. So I will admit that, like, legally it doesn't make sense. I don't think he ever thought this would happen. I don't know. He's an abusive prick. I don't see him having any kind of... I don't think he cares.

I don't think he cares at all. I don't think he gives a shit. And, again, he inflamed this. Yeah. So, I mean, he was hearing Rachel sitting there saying, I'm going to kill you. You're not doing anything about it. Instead, you're encouraging this behavior. I know that actually is a very good point.

And I forgot that he punched Rachel? Yeah, he punched her in the face. He's a piece of shit. And again, I'm not doing that. there's no legal way that he could be charged with anything. So I'm not saying like, you know, that. But he should be punished for something. Yeah.

But either way, he's not. So police sergeant Tina, Trey, I think it's like Trey. Sorry, Tina. You tried. She was there. Sergeant Tina. Was at the crime scene. And on the stand, she was asked about Rachel's state during the whole chaotic

crime scene situation because they kept going back to that. Like, why was she so calm? And she said, quote, I noticed her calmness and lack of concern. with what was going on. And then she said she was the one who she asked for a cigarette. So she was like she asked me for a cigarette. Javier said that Rachel was ready to fight that night. It was standing in the street ready for Sarah when she pulled up. Of course. I believe that. The big thing in the trial obviously was the voicemails left by Rachel for Sarah. Where she said, I'm going to murder you. Those threatening ones where she says again and again that she's going to kill her. She guarantees it.

There was, and again, they focused on the witnesses saying that they heard her say, I'm going to stab you in your Mexican boyfriend. Yeah. Now, the jury took 2.5 hours to reach a verdict of guilty. I'm surprised it took that long. She got 27 years in prison. Wow. Which she deserves.

Absolutely. The judge said the murder was no accident. No. It was like, don't even try. No, I don't believe that for a second. She did appeal, but she lost. So she'll still be in there. Rachel's father Barry actually said, quote, we've lost our daughter as far as having her home with us, but she's still here for us to visit.

But Sarah's lost. Her parents lost their only daughter. Oh, that's sad. Which I'm like, that's big of her parents to recognize. Recognize and say. And there were rumors that Rachel was going to write a book. But Sarah's parents filed a civil lawsuit to stop her from profiting from any of this. Yeah, good.

Josh was not allowed to attend Sarah's funeral. Good. He doesn't deserve to. Rachel is still serving her sentence at Lowell Correctional Institution in Marion County, Florida, and she will be there for quite some time. Yeah. You know, I wonder if Josh would have even attended the funeral. I don't know.

Because he couldn't walk in there and say goodbye to this girl that he thinks he loves. Yeah, it's like, how can you even show your face there? Yeah. When everyone knows how you treated her, first of all. Right. And that you are the reason this happened. You are the catalyst behind all this. Right.

I mean, you can't play with people's emotions like that. You can't do it. No. And it's just a sad case, very avoidable. I know. Very of the time and very just like frustrating to talk about later. That's the thing. It's so frustrating because you see the potential that each of them had and they just threw it away for this deadbeat.

Yeah, that's the thing. Like what was, what did he have to offer? And it was probably something that only. they saw, you know, that the whole thing that, like, you don't know him like I know him. But we've all fallen under it. We've all done it. And it's like, it's just really frustrating. Oh, that's sad. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bummer. So that is the case. R.P. Sarah Ludman and Rachel, you suck. Josh, you suck. Yeah. So, woof. Yeah. What a doozy. They usually are. They always are. Well, you can follow us on Instagram. At Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on

Twitter at a morbid podcast. Send us a Gmail. Morbidpodcast at gmail.com. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not to worry that you meet this point and you fall in love with him and really he's not anything to fall in love with it all and you ruin your whole life and you throw it all away for him and then you stab somebody and you shouldn't ever stab anybody and don't ever tell anybody that you're going to murder them because that could be used against you later. Bye. Bye.