Morbid - Heavenly Creatures: The Parker-Hulme Murder

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

On the afternoon of June 22, 1954, Agnes Ritchie was preparing ice cream for two customers in her shop when two teenage girls, Pauline Parker and Juliet Hulme, burst through the front door, screaming for help and saying one of their mothers had been killed. Agnes and her husband followed the girls into the nearby wooded area, where they found the badly beaten and obviously dead body of Honorah Parker. The couple wasn’t able to get much out of either girl, only that the woman had slipped and hit her head, but their behavior was strange and something about the whole scene didn’t feel right.Just two days later, Parker and Hulme were charged with the murder of Pauline’s mother, Honorah Parker. According to the prosecution, the girls had developed an intense bond and had created romantic fantasy in the months leading up to the murder that bordered on obsessiveness. In 1954, the girls’ relationship became threatened when Hulme’s parents divorced and began talking of relocating. Fearing they would be separated and never see one another again, Parker and Hulme killed Honorah, believing that her death would put an end to any plans to relocate.The story of Honorah’s murder and the trial that followed quickly spread across New Zealand and Australia and eventually made its way around the globe. Among other things, the case challenged existing beliefs about young women and their capacity for violence, but just as important were the sensational and salacious mentions of insanity and homosexuality that were often more implied than explicitly stated.Thank you to David White, of the Bring Me the Axe Podcast, for research :)ReferencesBrisbane Telegraph. 1954. "Conspired to Kill." Brisbane Telegraph, August 23: 1.—. 1954. "Teenagers remanded, police blame girl's passion for horses." Brisbane Telegraph, June 24: 1.Chun, Louise. 1995. "Slaughter by the innocents: The case of the schoolgirl killers shocked New Zealand." The Guardian, January 30.Graham, Peter. 2011. So Brilliantly Clever: Parker, Hulme and the Murder that Shocked the World. Wellington, NZ: Awa Press.Neustatter, Angela. 2003. "‘I was guilty. I did my time’: Anne Perry, the novelist whose past caught up with her." The Guardian, November 20.Newcastle Sun. 1954. "Girls shrugged at charge of murder." Newcastle Sun, July 16: 1.The Age. 1954. "Girls smile at N.Z. sentence." The Age , August 30: 1.—. 1954. "Defence says N.Z. girls insane as mother killed." The Age, August 25: 9.—. 1954. "Description of quarrel." The Age, July 17: 3.—. 1954. "Doctor says both girls certifiable." The Age, August 27: 5. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Beep, beep, boop. Beep, boop. Hello. Hey there. It's still spooky season. We're feeling good. Spooky season forever and always. We were in a pumpkin patch. Oh my God. If you looked at my Instagram story today, you saw that Elena and I essentially cleared out the entire pumpkin patch. Yep, we definitely did my entire porches, filled with pumpkins, as it should be. I cannot wait to get home and put mine out. But yeah, I think this week, some crazy stuff kind of happened, but like didn't happen at the same time. It presented itself. Yeah, I think so we all got excited when we heard that the Zodiac killer might have been identified. But it's still a very heavy might have been.

Yeah, and it's starting to become more of a heavy. There's nothing that confirms this yet. Like, so far, as of this recording, at least, no. DNA has confirmed it. We don't have anything really, really, really solid that we could point to. No. So we, as exciting as it is, and as much as we all want to jump and be like, yay, it's solved because who doesn't want like decades old cold cases to be solved? We all want that. That's why we're all here. This one's looking a little shaky. Sure, those lines in his forehead look like the lines on the sketch. I will say that. A lot of people need Botox.

And that doesn't mean that they're a serial killer. And also, though, it kind of, I mean, his eyes, they look exactly the same. I think the sketch looks a lot like him. But I think that also could possibly, we have to remember that we're all human. And since we want it to be him so bad, we're seeing a lot of similarities. And he's, you know, just a random white dude. And the sketch is just a random white dude. Yeah.

There's going to be some similarities there. We're just going to see it. He didn't even have the bifocals. He didn't have the bifocals. You don't have the buy focals. You must buy to the vocals. There you go. There you go.

You must say bye to the focals. That made a lot of sense. Everything I say makes sense. But yeah, so I know we got, I mean, we got excited too. Oh, we were stoked. But hopefully, I mean, hopefully we'll be able to update and say like, hell yeah, and we can all party together and say that the Zodiac got identified. Let's vibe. But right now, Gary is looking kind of like, me.

Okay. Sure. Like if they said it was him, I'd be like, I'm right. But if they said it was, and I'd be like, right. Either way, you're not right. Yeah, there's nothing that's really, I don't know. He's not a compelling suspect to me, but I don't know. Just yet.

Who am I? Who am I? An investigator? No. So, I can't say. You're investigative. Not on the case. So I don't know.

But we'll see. Hopefully we get it. Maybe at the end of spooky season, we'll get it. Maybe. Who knows? But I think the only other thing I just wanted to point out was that everybody should listen to a really good podcast. I just, I was listening to, I don't know if anybody, like, anybody is as obsessed with Maggie Freeling as I am.

You love Maggie Freeling. We were actually just having this conversation today and I haven't listened to the show yet and I need to. Yeah, like I love her. This is genuine. Yeah, the podcast, Murder and Alliance, it's so good. Murder in Alliance. Yes, murder and alliance. And lately, I mean, the episodes are just getting so compelling.

She's amazing. I don't want to tell you a lot because I want everybody to go listen to it because I was listening to the latest episode and I was like, holy shit, Maggie has to be one of like the best true crime podcasters. Like just with the way that this story went and the way that she, like she truly followed the facts and took all. I appreciate that. Even a preconceived idea of what she thought was happening in the case that she was covering,

she looked at the facts and it brought her a different way. And she led it. And she had, you know, and I thought that was amazing. So I just wanted to call that out because I thought that was really cool. That is really cool. I'm like going to listen when I, on my way home. And I was hoping we would have like an update on the Gabby Petito, you know, the hunt for Brian Laundry this week.

I can't imagine like how her family is feeling because even like on the outside over here, it's so frustrating. It's making me so angry. But they do have the Gabby Petito foundation up and running. So that is a good thing. So if you can go check that out, I highly. recommend that. Totally. But yeah, hopefully, you know, hopefully all these things will have good news in the next couple weeks. I think he's still out there. I really genuinely feel that. I do too. And I think

we'll find them. Yeah. I hope so. We're going to find them. Something's going to happen. Something's got to give. We're going to take that dirty laundry out. We're going to do it. All right. I think that's all the real updates that are going on. I was going to say, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. All right. Well, I've got an ash-centric case for you, except it's not very ash-centric. It's like not very old Hollywood or anything like that. It's just my case. It's just, you know, an ash case.

An ash case. And it takes place in Canada. So, hello, Canadian listeners. We love a Canada. It takes place in Canadia and Marica. So, whoa. Yeah, best of both worlds. Hey, let's all high five.

Woo. Okay. So Nancy Rents was born in Alberta, Canada, to her parents, Gary and Donna Rents. Gary was a social worker and he was like super well respected in their town. He eventually was actually able to run his own business. And while doing that, he set up different educational and social programs for the government. Oh, okay.

So like very well respected. Yeah. Now Nancy grew up in Edmonton, a small city in Alberta. She had a twin sister, Krista, who was like literally a built-in best friend. They called each other soulmates. Oh, we love that. They like loved being twins. It was adorable.

So important. And they had such a strong bond. They also had a younger sister named Jill and a brother named Jeff. Growing up, Nancy was like super sporty. She played ringette, which is really similar to hockey. Have you heard of it? No. I had never heard of it either.

It's like very similar to hockey, I guess. You like play it on ice with like this like pole thing and it's like apparently it's like really, really difficult. I didn't even know. I mean, anything on ice. I'm always a stag. Like I don't think we fully appreciate hockey players. Like how hard that is.

Not only do they skate forwards, but they're like. They also go backwards. I can't even stand on ice skates. I was just going to say I literally can't even step on to the ice without like making a fool of myself. And also they're like going really fast. Like, insanely. Yeah.

And sometimes. Amazing to me. Backwards. Like I can't even walk backwards. Yeah. I can barely fucking walk forwards. Oh. So Ringet is a Canadian non-contact winter team sport.

Yeah. Played on ice hockey skates. Yeah. It's literally like just like hockey. So it's like no contact. Yeah. But you just can't like hit each other. Oh, okay, cool.

And apparently it's like really geared toward women. Yeah. Which is cool. That's pretty bad. And she was really good at it. Get it. People said that when she was younger, she was like a little bit of a geek and she had like the Coke bottle glasses.

Oh my God, adorable. Which if you see pictures, correct. Oh my God, adorable. And also who didn't have the Coke bottle glasses in like 1973? That's all they had to offer. I was going to say like it was required to go to school, I think. Legit. But as she got older, she grew out of that.

And she surrounded herself with like a really awesome group of friends. and she was stunning. Like, she was a beautiful girl. Her brother, Jeff, said when she walked into a room, that's where people wanted to be. Which I was like, imagine your brother saying that about you. Like, that's just a really sweet brother thing to say. Yeah. Yeah, she was also super into fashion, jewelry.

She really appreciated different kinds of art. And actually, for a little while, she ran her own clothing store as kind of a side hustle. And her main job, because she was apparently incredibly intelligent, was with IBM. Oh, okay. Yeah, just that. No, but very careful. Just super super duper cash. And it was at IBM that she met Bradley Graham Cooper, which we're going to call him Brad Cooper so that it doesn't get confusing. Yes, because I was just about to be like, wait a second. Yeah. And I think most people called him Brad anyways. He was also from Alberta. In fact, they were born just seven weeks apart in the same year, 1973. And they were both in their mid-20s when they met in 1999. So Brad Cooper grew up with his family in Medicine Hat, Alberta. He was born to his parents, Terry. and Carol Cooper, and he grew up with a brother, not sure if he was older or younger, and couldn't

find his name. So I was like, he's got a brother. Yeah, he's got a brother. But his father, Terry, was a chemistry teacher, and he actually became the vice president of Madison Hat College. And he eventually earned a couple of seats on, like, super important community boards in the area. Huh.

Like a very well-respected man. Wow. Which is interesting because, like, both of their dads are like really, like, prominent members in society. Yeah. And his mother, Carol, was a stay-at-home mom. took care of him and his brother, and apparently she was a really good gardener. Oh, which I was like, that's adorable. That is very wholesome. Yeah, it's very like all American,

all Canadian. All Canadian, you know? Brad himself was like really, really smart. He did really well in school and his IQ was above average. He pretty much had a way of just like figuring out how to be good at whatever he wanted to be good at. He had also this blog called Adventures of Brad, where he would write about all the things he wanted to do. Adventures of Brad. Adventures of Brad. Adventures of Brad. Adventures of Brad. That's amazing. Like very 90s. Very, the internet just came up. Very much. What is the internet?

Also really creative. Adventures of Brad. Okay. I'm Brad. These are my adventures. Also like moderately narcissistic. It doesn't, you know what? It doesn't bury the lead. You know what you're getting? You're getting the adventures of a guy named Brad. Of Brad. I don't need to ask any more questions. I'm here. There you are. I mean, I'm not here, but someone else will be there.

Yeah, nobody's there anymore. I don't care about Brad. adventures, but somebody else might have. I'm going to let you know that you shouldn't give a fuck about Brad's adventures. All right, because I already didn't. But at the same time, I'm also going to tell you about some of his adventures. Okay, cool. Not really even adventures. That's the other thing.

Misdeeds. No, I don't need just like things. Oh, okay. Just like, things that Brad did is what he should have named it. Things that Brad did.com. Things Brad did.com. Yeah, I mean, he had some good accomplishments, and the accomplishments went into a section of the blog called Goals Completed.

Hey. I'm like, again, very to the point. This could have just been a personal list that you made for yourself. That's just what you write in your bullet journal, but like, okay. Like, these are the goals I'd like to attain and these are the accomplishments. I'm going to close the pen now. Well, that's when the narcissism comes in. Right.

Because it's like you have to do it for everybody else. You can't just write it in your little journal. Exactly. Now, just to give you like a little insight as to Brad, who he was, those accomplishments were things like Ironman challenges, which is a big deal. Those are hard. Yeah. Yeah, like I'm never, ever going to try that.

It's pretty big deal. He also finished his master's degree and a triathlon. That's fucking awesome. He was doing good things. Yeah. Just your average day to day. By the way you're speaking, I'm feeling like, like, what the fuck ever? Like, we're all not going to cave a shit about those good things in the end.

I literally couldn't care less. Cool. All right. But like beast mode. So fuck that master's. I don't care about it. Yeah, fuck your masters. I don't care.

I mean, it's pretty impressive. I want a master's, but like, here we're. we are. You know, what's really funny is when you said that I was going to be like, you have one. No, I don't. You seem like somebody that does. I probably have the amount of time that I've that I've been in school for our masters, but no, 100 gazillion percent. But you've got very good other things. Thank you. I don't know. I don't have a degree in anything. So that's, that's where we're at. But anyways, Brad had later in his life talked to a psychiatrist, and he just basically that said that when he was a child and a teenager, life was like really uneventful. And,

his family got along fine. They were just your day-to-day family. But the psychiatrist noted that he had some, quote, detachment with little emotional warmth when he was talking about his childhood and his family. Concerning. Concerning. Because I talk about my family with a lot of warmth. I'm supposed to have a little emotional warmth, I think. And this is coming from someone with very little emotional warmth. So if I'm saying it, you should have it. But, you know, she said he had a little emotional words. So he had a little tiny way. All right. Cool. But he also had some detachment. Yeah, that's like you don't really want much detachment anywhere. No.

Anyways, when Nancy and Brad first met, she was actually already dating this really prominent businessman from Calgary, who she was really involved with. But there was something about Brad that really drew her in. She was used to dating like super outgoing guys who were popular, but weren't really headed in the direction that she was. It kind of seemed like they were content where they were for resting on their laurels. Yes. And like motivated in a business sense, but maybe not a family sense.

Oh, okay. And Brad to her seemed different. He was quieter. He seemed a little more serious. And really, Nancy was at the time in her life where that's what she wanted. She wanted to have children and settle down. And the guy she was dating just really weren't there yet. I think they were more focused on like their business.

Yeah. And she was like, but I want to have a home life. Yeah. And that happened when she met Brad. She told her sister that her heart felt safe with him. Oh. Which like, please ruin me. That's the sweetest sentence.

That's a really sweet thing to say. My heart feels safe with him. Like, I, that makes me hurt. Yeah. But Brad must have felt the same because he bought Nancy a gorgeous ring and he asked her to marry him. And originally they had planned like this really big wedding with all their friends and family. They wanted to go all out. But then Brad actually ended up getting a really good job offer from Cisco, which is like a phone company. It's like the phone company. It's like the phone company. Or like ever heard of it? It was.

And the job, for the job, he was going to have to move to America in North Carolina to be specific. And he was one of very few people in the country who were doing this kind of work. It's very confusing, but essentially it involves like merging internet technologies and phone technologies. Yeah, that's what his job was. For sure. Just IT, I think. Yeah, sure. You know, it.

The internet. Now, Brad was a whiz at that kind of thing. He actually designed the network for the family business that Nancy's family ran together. And I guess their IT guy, like, came and looked at it once and was like, who designed? this. Like, this is incredible. Really? Like, they were very impressed when they saw it. So he was really, really good at this stuff.

Now, before they moved, they wanted to spend a lot of time with their family. Nancy's family really grew fond of Brad and her little sister Jill spent like almost every single weekend at their apartment. And she was like, he was a warm guy. Like, I liked being around him and he made my sister happy. I was like kind of thinking of like you and John. Yeah. Because I was at your apartment every weekend.

Of course. Yeah. I never left. I'm still here. Every weekend. But because they wanted to get married with their family still being able to be there, they ditched the idea of the big wedding. Because the other thing was, if Nancy was going to move to America with Brad, they had to get

married before they moved because of like visa purposes. Yeah. So they got married at a restaurant one Friday night in October of 2000. Nancy looked beautiful. She wore like this like, kind of looked like a satin. One place described it as a sundress, but when I saw a photo, it didn't really look like a sundress to me. It was kind of like a satin, like just.

just like shiny, pretty white dress. Yeah. She was beaming in every single picture. Even though the guest list was small, you could tell that they were just like really happy. For some reason, only Brad's brother attended from his side, but all of Nancy's immediate family was there and a couple of their friends came to celebrate. Okay. And it seemed like it was an amazing celebration.

So after the wedding, they moved out to Carrie North Carolina, which apparently is one of the most safest cities in America. So if you lived there, like congratulations. Hey, good for you. Get it. And you're safe. That's awesome. Continue being safe.

Do it. That's awesome for you. Safety. Yes. Unfortunately, though, things didn't really go as swimmingly as Nancy had hoped. She didn't have a visa, like I said. So she wasn't able to work in the U.S. And Brad was supposed to be working on that.

So hopefully she was going to be eventually. But at that point, she had to pretty much depend on Brad for whatever she wanted. And her family was like, she was not that kind of out. I was going to say, and if you're just not like somebody comfortable with that, then that's like torturous. Exactly. And basically that's exactly how it was for her. She wanted to make her own money.

She didn't want to have to ask her husband for something. Yeah. That's just not the relationship that she was interested in. Yeah, she just wasn't comfortable with that arrangement. No. And she was also really bored because she didn't really know anybody around there. She couldn't get a job. So she was like, what the hell am I supposed to do all day?

I know. And she was just like unhappy a lot of the time. So by Christmas time 2002, she was talking to her family during a visit out back in Canada. It was just out in Canada. You know, out in Canada. Out in Canada. Out there. I mean, that applies to like someone, I guess.

But she was telling them that she was really miserable and that she didn't even want to go back to Carrie with Brad. Oh. And I guess he wasn't with her on this trip. Now, they heard what she was saying because they realized, they said like their relationship had never been perfect. But also at the same time, whose relationship is perfect. So they were like, you know, and a lot of times, like in the first couple of years, people do run into like kind of like newlyweds is, it's stressful, I guess. I don't know that personally, but it can be. I've heard.

I guess it can be, yeah. Yeah, for some people. So they were just like, okay, maybe they're just kind of hitting like a bump in the road here. And her sister Jill was like, you know, you decided to marry him. This is your husband. You should try to make it work. And at that point, Brad himself came out to Edmonton and he convinced Nancy to go home with him. So she agreed and things seemed to get better with time.

She was able to make some friends around town. She actually had like a really great group of friends. She was able to get a car of her own. and she actually started nannying so that she could make some cash while she was out there. So everything that she was kind of upset about in the beginning definitely turned around for her. Starting to be remedied. Exactly. Now she and Brad welcomed their first daughter in February of 2004.

And then in 2006, they had another daughter. I'm not going to say the kids' names because it doesn't really need to happen. But by 2008, they were right back to where they started when they first moved. So 2004 to 2006 was like a really happy time. and then two years after that, it was like everything was starting back up again. Oh, no. And when you have the stress of like kids and newborns, small kids, like toddlers and stuff, and you're already not doing well together, I imagine that's not going to help matters.

No, definitely not. And like, imagine having like a two-year-old and a newborn. Yeah, and it's like that's either going to bring you closer together as a team and show you what you're made of or it's going to pull you right apart. Of course. If there's already cracks in it, it's going to pull you right about. part. And there was a really, really big crack because Nancy's friend confessed to her one night that she had been sleeping with Brad, her friend. What the fuck? Had been sleeping with her husband.

I am not one to condone violence, but if my friend sat in front of me and said, I've been fucking your husband. That's not your friend, first of all. And like, like, what do you, what do you expect someone to say? Like, I literally have been sleeping with your husband. How do you not expect somebody to, like, want to hate you. I don't understand that. Like, I would want to hit my friend. How could you not? Like, I don't know how, like... And then I would like to go to my husband and be like, yeah, like, bye. And then literally go to your husband and be like, get out of my house immediately and never talk to me again, except that it's the father of your children. So you're now tied to that person for life. Like, what the fuck? You're tied to that person for life and you're in like a foreign place

that you can't get out of. I'm like so irrationally angry for somebody I haven't even met. No, but I don't blame you. Like, I felt the same way. Her friend. How is a friend? And it's like, because it's not your friend. How does a quote unquote friend do that to somebody? And then how does your husband go to your friend and do that?

Like there's so much betrayal. Yeah. So many layers of betrayal there that I can't even sift through them properly to like think of a response. Oh, it only gets worse. No. Yeah. It only gets worse.

So like prepare yourself to be very angry. Because not only, he not only had cheated on her. At this point, he was also becoming like, like super controlling and like very possessive, which like that's what cheaters do. It also just makes no sense because why are you possessive of me when you clearly don't get a fuck about me? Welcome to being cheated on where you are so mind fucked that you have no idea what's going on. Right. Because somebody is acting like they, first of all, they make it feel like you cheated on them. Or no, they're acting like you cheated on them. Right. Because they're so

possessive and obsessive. Because like trust me, like my ex cheated on me horrifically. And I remember being like, what the fuck? Like, I'm not doing anything. I don't understand this. And as soon as I found out, I was like, oh, yeah, it's a projection. It's a total projection because they know they're doing it. So they're like, well, there's nothing to say that they won't if I'm doing all this horrible stuff. And it's just, it's a nasty thing to do. So it just, it's all consuming. Yeah. And it also is just like next to nasty behavior. It's just like more nasty behavior. Yeah, you're just like rolling in nasty. I don't know if you can tell, but I'm a bitter. you have every right to be.

I'm just kidding. So she confronted him obviously. And he told her that there was no relationship with this woman at all. Because this woman literally was like, I'm having an affair with your husband. And he was like, no, there's no relationship. He's like, so throughout counseling sessions at that point, they decided to go to counseling. He admitted that this was a full-blown affair. Not only that, but that he was in love with her friend.

Literally was like, basically. tried to make her think that it was a one-night stand and then was like, actually, it's not, and I'm in love with your friend. Actually, it's not a one-night stand? I'm actually fully in love with her. I have a totally another life. You have two children, two young babies. Babies. With this man. And he is now telling you that not only has he cheated on you with your friend, but he is now in love with that. My brain literally will not wrap around. I would look at him and be like, you're not in love with her because clearly you don't know what love is. You don't know what love is. Like, that doesn't make any sense.

Like, my brain can't even fathom this. No. That's horrific. And she's like away from all of her support system other than like the new friends that she's made. And then she's probably questioning all of her friendships at this point because of this lady can do that to you. Like, that must just be, you must just be so in such a state of shock and just like

distrust for everyone around you. Well, two of the most important people, your friend and your husband. and have lied to you. Completely shattered your trust. Who do you turn to in that situation? No. And before she had realized that it was like a full-blown affair, she was like, maybe I'll try to make this work

because we have these children together. Yeah, that's got to play into it. But once she found out that this was like a full-ass affair, she was like, no, I'm literally done. Yeah, once you say, I'm in love with her. Okay. I'm in love with her and all these other things that we're going to find out later that we're going on.

She was like, no, like, fuck this. I'm out. Now, later in a deposition, Brad and Mellon, admitted that the first time he slept with this woman and he in the deposition he said it only happened once but apparently in therapy he had said otherwise but in this deposition he said that the one time they slept together was in the master closet in the master bedroom of him and nancy's home oh my god what a disgusting piece of fucking garbage like in your wife's home in her like where her clothes are and like what kind of friend are you yeah you don't know what friendship is too

gross people. It's horrific. And you don't accidentally fuck someone, man. Like, don't, I don't, like, come on. No. So, when divorce was initially brought to the table as an option, it seems like Brad was open to it, which, why would you not be? Because you're sitting, you're telling me you don't love me. You don't have a whole lot of leg to stand on, buddy. No. Nancy had even started packing up her and the kids things and was planning just to take them back with her to Alberta, with her family, because she was like, fuck this. Yeah, bye. So she'd contacted a lawyer and they were beginning to see what, the divorce would look like, how it would all play out in different aspects, especially what their custody agreement would look like and how much Brad was most likely going to be paying in child support.

Once he saw that information, he told Nancy the move was off. She couldn't move anymore. She literally had their things like boxed up and ready to go. And Nancy at that point realized that this was just going to be a full-blown battle. So she started locking personal and important papers in her car so that Brad wouldn't have access to them. She also had locked her and the kids' passports in the car if they ever needed to get away. And at this point, she told people that she was sleeping in a locked room with the kids with the keys in her pocket. So obviously, there was a lot more going on here. I'm so horrified for her and those children. It's the saddest thing ever. Now, somehow, one day, Brad actually was able to get into her car and took one of their daughter's

so that she wouldn't be able to go back to Canada. And how fucked is that? He was like, I'll leave two of them, but you're going to have to leave without one of our kids. You're going to have to leave one of our kids behind. Like, what did I? Oh, a horrible, horrible person. Now at this point, he was also listening in on her phone calls. So he was just like one step ahead of everything.

And the thing is, she would have never left one of the kids there. She wouldn't have left either of the kids there. It was her and the kids leaving. was that. Yeah. So she tried to talk to a lawyer about everything that was going on, but obviously Brad's listening to her phone calls, so it's super difficult. And the lawyer ended up telling her that she really shouldn't leave the house anyway, because if she did, she could lose everything. And she wasn't going to, but he was like, just so you know if you do leave without the kids, even if you have the intent of getting them eventually, if you leave without them, you really do risk losing custody altogether. Yeah.

So she was... No option. like stuck isn't even the word. There's not even a word for. Literally optionless. Like she had nowhere to go. Oh, like honestly, I like feel anxiety thinking about how horrific this situation is because it's just from all angles. You just have nowhere to go and you're devastated like because your friend has betrayed

you. You're devastated because your husband has betrayed you. You're clearly afraid for you and your children's safety if you're like sleeping in a locked room with the keys in your pocket. They're adorable. So Nancy's family knew some of the details about what was going on. They knew that Brad was listening on the calls, though, so Nancy wasn't able to tell them everything. Like, she couldn't tell them exactly what was going on.

Oh, my God. This is just, like, horrible in every sense. It is. And they knew, her family knew about that, and they knew about the passport that he'd taken. But they didn't really think that he was capable of much worse. And they thought his behavior just had a lot to do with the fact that this was a nasty divorce. Yeah, you're never, ever going to consider that someone could do anything. Someone that you're married to, you know, that's, you don't think that.

But just to be sure that his daughter felt safe, her father, Gary, point blank, asked Nancy. He was like, are you in fear of your safety? And she said that she wasn't. But he was like, I had to ask her. Yeah, of course. That was a relief. But what is she, she can't say it. Right, exactly.

Because she was probably thinking, is that just going to set someone off and then something terrible is going to happen? Exactly. And she, even if she doesn't feel safe, she still has nowhere to go. Yeah. Like, her lawyer was like, you can't leave. You can't leave, but it's not going to play out well for me. So he was relieved that his daughter at least felt safe, he thought.

But they were still really worried. And they were just, they felt horrible that Nancy was going through all this alone. So that summer in July of 2008, all of her family came down to Carolina, North Carolina for a visit. Oh, because I was going to say, they must feel so helpless. Yeah. Up in Canada. Like, so far away. Right.

Oh. And you think, like, when she left, they think. thought that this was what she wanted. And it was all for a happy ending. And it was, it seemed like everything in the beginning was going to just, they were going to have this happy life together. They were moving to a beautiful suburb and they were having kids. And then it all really just came like crashing down so fast. And they were horrified and just like so deeply sad to see the condition that their daughter and their sister was in. They were used to this like bright, bubbly, confident, happy daughter and sister. And now the person that was with them, they said,

was like a shell of herself. Like it wasn't even her. So Nancy and Brad obviously were separated. Oh yeah. Like because kids feed off of that too. They know all about like what's going on even when we don't think they do. Oh yeah. They'd pick up on vibes hugely. So at this point obviously Nancy and Brad are separated, but they were still living in the same house. And Brad was treating her terribly. So Nancy's family was like, we have to do something to help her. So they spoke with their own lawyer. And they were trying to figure out if there was a way that they could get Nancy and the kids out of the house. Maybe they could buy out Brad's share. But they were kind of just in the mode of trying to figure it out.

Like wheels are just spinning at this point. There's no real solution happening. And before she left, Nancy's mom, Donna was already figuring out a way to come back and help. Like she was like, I'm going to come back. I'm going to help you. We're going to figure this out. Oh, these poor parents. And when that July vacation was over, Nancy brought her parents to the airport and her mom

said that she like clung to her as she was leaving and just said mom I just want to go home oh my god rip my heart out I literally like I have goosebumps right now like all you want is your mom and you just want to go home like you just want to get the fuck away from this garbage yeah human that you thought loved you and you realize that he's just incapable of love oh my god that's like so sad I just like feel so bad for her parents. For everyone. The whole situation is just horrible. That's just horrific.

Now unfortunately, that was going to be the last time that Nancy's family saw her alive. I think we very clearly could see where this was headed. Oh, fuck this guy. Six days later on July 12th, Nancy was supposed to be meeting up with a couple of her friends that morning. Most of them had actually been together at a barbecue the night before right across the street from Nancy and Brad's house. And before they all left, they confirmed their plans. These plans were solidified. This woman, Jessica, who Nancy was friends with, was expecting Nancy to come over to her house around 8 a.m.

She was actually helping her paint so that she could get some extra money because Brad at this point had like cut off her allowance. Yeah. Her allowance, which is the most ridiculous thing. But Nancy never showed up. And Jessica knew right away that something was off with the situation because Nancy wasn't the kind of person to just like no call, no show. And she also knew that Nancy and Brad were having marriage problems. so she was freaked out. Yeah.

And especially because the night before at the barbecue, Nancy and Brad were there together with the kids. Brad went home early with the kids. And Nancy stayed until around midnight. And she was just really venting to her friends about how bad things had gotten and how much she was just growing to like really hate Brad. And there was a woman there

who would later testify at Nancy's murder trial. This woman said that she had just met Nancy that night, but she remembered a lot of the things that Nancy was opening up about. And she said she remembered, she remembered driving home that night and telling her husband that she was worried for this woman. Wow. And she barely knew her.

Wow. And she said she was like something bad is going to happen at that house because she said like she just kept seeing Nancy looking back at the house and looking to her. And she was like I just felt like something really bad was going to happen there. Oh. And like imagine later like you look back on that night and you're like I knew that that was going to happen. And now I'm sitting here at this. This woman was murdered.

Like that's horrific. Oh. So Jessica and another friend of Nancy's called Heather, who also had plans with her that morning, were really starting to freak out. And it didn't help that when they called Brad, he would barely give them any information. Of course not. He's a garbage person. He just said that Nancy had gone out for a jog, which wasn't weird because she was actually training for a half marathon because she was fucking amazing. But he wasn't clear on what time she had left. And by then it was 10 o'clock. And they were like, he said like, oh, she left her on like six or seven. It's like those are two different times. Yeah, those are two very different times. You know when your wife leaves, especially

if you're taking care of the kids. I was just going to say, you have two tiny children. Yeah, you know what time it is. You know every second that the other parent is out of the house. You know how long they've been gone. So it was Jessica who called 911 when Brad actually called her a little bit later and said Nancy still wasn't back. So her friend called 911. He called her and the friend was like, yeah, I'm going to call because something's not right here. What the fuck? It's like, that's weird. He never called the police. Of course not. So Jessica told the operator that her friend Nancy was going through a divorce and now she was missing. Brad never even called Nancy's family. Never even called her family. No, of course he didn't. So immediately this case was all over the news because like I said,

Carrie was a really safe place. Nothing like this had really happened there before. Yeah. And Nancy, like it's kind of like the all American thing. Yeah. And it's like if she just went out jogging and then didn't come back, people are like, well, who the fuck is that? Exactly. Is there like a prowler outside? That is exactly like what the air was full of at that point. And as soon as the news made it back to Alberta, Nancy's family was on the first plane out there. Oh, they probably all, the stomach. They knew immediately.

Drops that must have happened when that phone call was made is just like, you just know. Because her father had literally said to her mother, this situation isn't going to have a pretty outcome. Oh. Just when the divorce was happening. And to feel like you have no, like, obviously I don't know this family. I don't know these parents, but I just like, as parents, you must be to feel so out of control to keep your child safe, no matter how old they are. I can't imagine how that must feel.

That's your baby no matter what. Yeah, and it's like you can't keep them safe. Like you have no control over it. Some piece of shit monster man way far away, like hundreds of thousands and thousands of miles away has control over the situation and you don't. Yeah, I can imagine that feeling. Every parent's nightmare. It is.

Every family member's nightmare. Her twin sister. So her twin sister. I can't imagine her either. Is a badass. She called Brad that day and said, she did. She goes, what have you done? Where is she?

She, everybody knew immediately. And she never got an answer from Brad. And her poor twin, like that, that's a special kind of connection. Like, of course, like a sister bond is like, oh, yeah. Nothing you can even talk about. But twin, I can't imagine. No. And there's a date.

There's just something with twins. There is. It really is. There's a date. line episode and she there's like a memorial service that's happening and she's talking about how they're twins and how special that is. I started crying. Yeah. There's so many twins in our family. There is. Yeah. And just like the connection I felt to this story. And she said it like makes me want to cry. I know I can see it in your eyes. I know. She said whenever I have to remember her, all I have to do is look in

the mirror. Oh. And it just something about that sentence just ruined me. Like I was like. Because it's because I, I mean, I have sisters who are twins. My mom's a twin. I have twins. The connection is undeniable. Absolutely. Undeniable. They know.

Like, they know when the other one isn't feeling well. They know they can feel something when the other one feels that there is something. It's not like as crazy in your face as like, you know, people will make it like, you know, stories will make it. But it's like it's always this thing. Like they just always know with the other one. And I've seen it with my own twins. It's like, they are so connected on such a different level. I mean, they literally came into the universe together.

Yeah. Like, that's, that's something special. They hung out in the womb together. Like, they developed together. Like, all of the developmental steps they did at the same time. So whenever I see, like, you know, twins and one of them, especially when one of them is, like, murdered or goes missing, there's just something. You can tell it's like a piece of the other one. It's just been ripped out.

Because it's like a, it's just a different kind of hurt. Yeah. It makes me so sad. But when she said that, I was like, oh, yeah, it was so heavy. But so she never got an answer from Brad. He never told her. But two days later, she found out where her sister was, where her twin was. Nancy's body was found two days after Jessica had reported her missing.

A man was actually walking his dog and he saw her body laying face down in a storm drain. It was near an undeveloped subdivision and it was about three miles from her own home. Oh, fuck you, dude. Now, the only reason that this man noticed her, like, she may have been there for longer if he hadn't been out there walking because he noticed vulture circling in the area and, like, took a closer look. Oh. Which is absolutely haunting. Yeah. Horrible.

That really, the haunting is the exact word. No, when Nancy's brought in to be autopsied, the autopsy was able to show that she had been strangled and she had been in such a tight chokehold that one of the bones in her neck was broken. the force that takes. I just like... And that is such a personal way to kill someone. Absolutely. And for your... Like, you're killing your wife.

Yeah. The mother of your children. Obviously, we know he did it. Like, what? Yeah, I just had to take a deep breath because thinking about the force that it takes... Like, your neck, those are thick bones, do you? Yeah, they're supposed to hold your whole head up. Yeah.

They're supposed to be pretty hefty. To break somebody's neck and, like, the person who literally gave... And to be looking into somebody's eyes in doing that, the terror you're going to be watching in someone's eyes, that's horrible. Although I wonder if he even did look in her eyes because we might find out something later. Huh. It's a fucking coward. But when she was discovered, she only had on a sports bra and diamond earrings.

I read in one source that only one of her diamond earrings was still in. But when they found her, it didn't seem like this was like some kind of robbery or anything. Oh, okay. So they were like, her earrings were still there. Okay. But there were no signs of second. assault and there were no signs of trauma to her body other than the macs strangulation. Strangulation.

So immediately the investigators were like really perplexed by this because it didn't seem to be a robbery. The crime wasn't sexually motivated. And if it was like a stranger who like attacked her while jogging, they would probably hit her over the head or something like that. Right. There's no. They're not just going to run up and suddenly start strangling.

Like that doesn't make sense. Yeah. It just, and it just was very strange. Seems like she would have to be close to the person voluntarily for that kind of injury to occur. Exactly. Now, the news of Nancy's death was obviously heartbreaking to her family. And then to add salt to the wound, they were finding out all different kinds of things about their son-in-law. It turned out he had never applied for Nancy's work visa.

Oh, I knew it. He put her in that position so that she had to depend on him. I had a feeling. He wanted her to be in that position that she totally hated having to ask him for whatever she needed. Oh, and it only gets worse. The year leading up to Nancy's death, I can't imagine what this woman was going through. This was absolutely the worst year of her life and the worst year of their marriage, obviously. He controlled every single aspect, especially financially.

And once somebody gains financial control of your life, it's over. Yeah. Like, it's very hard to get out of that. At that point, I can't even imagine. And it's terrifying the things that they're capable of doing at that point. Yeah. Nancy was trying to make money quietly by selling her clothes or like I mentioned before, helping a friend paint her house.

But all that money was going to groceries for the kids because Brad didn't even care enough to give her money for that at that point. He actually lowered her weekly allowance, quote unquote, when he found out that she was painting Jessica's house and being paid for it. Oh, to buy food for the kids. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Totally. Not a demon at all. And Jessica said she remembered a lot of tension surrounding that project,

and she had been around Brad afterwards, and he had either made comments or like made faces at her about it. And she was like, the whole situation was just very uncomfortable. Her friends must have wanted to drop kick this guy at all times. Oh, at all times. At all times. And one of Nancy's other friends even remembered her calling Brad and telling him that she only had two dollars and that they were out of diapers. Like having to call your husband and be like, I don't have money in our. our kids don't have diapers and like he didn't give a fuck. Oh my god, I hate this guy so much. What did he care? I have such a rage. He wasn't even home. He was busy cheating on her. Now, when he was home, it was so that he was the one to put gas in Nancy's car. He would intentionally put a limited amount of gas in her car so that she could only travel as far as he wanted her to.

Not only that. This is horrific. He like I said, was listening in on her calls and by that point, He had also hacked into her email. So anything she was planning to do to better her life and get the fuck away from him, he was always one step ahead of her. There was no escaping him. No. He had everything right at his fingertips. And she couldn't even go to like, I mean, she probably felt like she couldn't even go to a police or anything like that

because she would have to have her kids with her because who knows what would happen. Exactly. She was hopeless. That's that point. Terror. What was she going to do? He was everywhere and he was nowhere all at the same time. He was nowhere he needed to be and everywhere he didn't need to be.

And thankfully, he did not do himself any favors during this investigation. Immediately suspicion landed on him. And in my personal belief, it's not just because he was the husband. It's because he was being a fucking weirdo about this stuff. It's because he's the worst human. Yes. His lawyers actually had to hold a press conference about the case where they address the fact that he literally wasn't even showing up to the memorial services being held for her

or any kind of event to bring awareness to the case. He went to like one in the beginning and his actions and words there. It was just like very detached. He was like, please somebody let us know where she is. Like I want my wife to come home. Yeah. It's like, yeah, you really sound like it. But they told the public, Brad Cooper is a very private man. I wonder why. And then they went on to say he's not accustomed to the hot glare of the media spotlight. He never dreamed that he would see his face splashed across television news shows, nor his name and headlines, especially not under these terrible circumstances.

Different people grieve in different ways, and Mr. Cooper wishes to mourn privately. And it's like, okay, that's fine if he wants to, like, not say a lot and be, and, like, mourn and all that. Like, I'm not telling anyone they can't, they have to sit in front of a camera. and grieve, like, by no means because I am 100% one of those people who, if you put a camera in my face when I'm grieving, I'm just walking away. Like, I'm not going to say shit. But it's like,

if you, if your wife is, first of all, if your wife is missing and you are fine, then shove a camera in my face. I'm going to be screaming from the rooftops, find my husband. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that would be the time when I get rid of all my own uncomfortable, like any discomfort I have. Because you wouldn't even think of it. Because I just want my husband back. Because exactly, you, your love for him would flush that out immediately. So it's like you can't use that everyone mourns differently. No, if you really wanted your significant other back, then you scream it. And you go find ways to find that person.

And if then when her body was discovered, you're wondering who, just like, like who's out in your community and like you're not scared. Like you have two daughters. What if they're targeting you? Like you would think that you'd be a little more present at these things. At least being like, if anybody knows something like come forward. Like you'd be at least being like, of course I don't want to sit here and give a full length interview. But I will happily sit there and be like, what is going on if anybody has

information? You have to at least, I mean, even as a human, like, you should care. Right. Like, people grieve in different ways, yes, but you should be caring. It should be evident that you care. Yeah, like, it should be at least a little evident that you care. Yeah, it was not at all evident. Yeah, exactly. Like, maybe like a tinge of evident in the first, like, little thing that he said, but like, barely. Yeah. And luckily, the district. attorney, Howard Cummings, he shared my same feelings. He did not think that Brad was mourning anything at all. And he took specific note of the fact that Brad Cooper hadn't even been the one to call the police about his missing wife. Yeah, that's a big problem. Never told her family and never

asked for any case updates about who could have been responsible for this. Yeah, red flag, red flag, and red flag. And again, like I said, you have two daughters. What if you're being targeted? Like, you're going to want to know some case updates, I would think. And it's like that's their mother. Yeah. Like, ridiculous. But unfortunately, they didn't have any physical evidence to go off of. And people in the area who didn't think Brad was responsible thought that Nancy could have been snatched up when she was running that morning. But like we were saying, when you think about it, the manner of death really doesn't make sense for that scenario.

It doesn't line up. But there were some eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen her out that morning. One woman was like absolutely sure that she saw Nancy. And she said that it was like the distinct features of. of her face. She was like, I know it was her. But we've talked all about eyewitnesses before and it's not very reliable. Yes, we have. It fucks things up most of the time. Can be more harm than good. Exactly. And another man who ended up testifying later, he said that he had seen Nancy and got a 30 second look at her, which I was like, that's not even very long, my guy. Like, it's not a long

time. Are you going to stare at something for 30 seconds? Maybe like that's pretty wrong. But still, yeah, I don't think he did. He said he also saw a van do a you turn to follow her. Okay. Maybe. There were a lot of, there was a lot of mention about suspicious vans in the area when it came to the people that didn't believe Brad had done this. But investigators really didn't find a lot following that lead. Okay. Now two months after Nancy's murder, no one had been charged. And that October, Brad was actually giving a deposition like I mentioned earlier as part of a custody battle with Nancy's parents. And as because as soon as they found out what had happened to Nancy, they all knew that Brad was received. responsible and they were like we had never seen him treat the kids poorly like we never saw anything to make us believe that he would harm them but if he was in a state of mind where he could have potentially done this to our daughter and our sister what's to say he won't snap and that's exactly what they said like exactly right and they were really worried about that too so they filed the paperwork just one day after nancy was found i want them to have those kids don't worry they do okay they

um they were they were granted temporary custody because the judge working this specific case didn't say anything about being suspicious of Brad committing the murder because at that point they hadn't really figured anything out yet. But he or he or she was very focused on the fact that it was definitely on its way to trial and the stress enough would like be a lot to affect those kids. So they needed to be away from it. Yeah. So luckily they were able to take care of the girls.

I'm glad. Now during the deposition, Brad all he did was try to tarnish Nancy's name and all while glancing down at his wedding ring and fiddling with it. Which, that again, haunting. Haunting. He tried to say that she was the one who spent too much money, that her credit card had the higher amount of debt attached to it, which I was like, you could have literally just done that yourself.

Yeah. Doesn't sound like she had it. And also, I'm just like, okay. And like maybe she had to buy stuff for your kids if you weren't, like, that shit costs money. Yeah, maybe she had to put everything on the credit card. Yeah, exactly. And he said that that is why he started her allowance in the first.

place and he claimed that the allowance was plenty of money it was $300 a week dude financial stuff is so fucked like it's also when you have children like that is very expensive I could see how $300 would go quickly with two children it does babies it does diapers formula groceries clothing oh yeah and with jackets car seats diapers alone are so expensive and formula like literally Are they just the things that babies need to like be sheltered and cared for? To like the basic necessities like wipes, diapers, like clothing, you know, everything, like stuff to bathe them. Like it's a really expensive gig. And it's like, you got to be on a good, I say this all the time.

Like you just, financial stuff will ruin you as a couple if you don't figure it out ahead of time. It's just like such, it's so crazy how it's such an evil force. Because money can ruin marriages. marriages, friendships. Oh, it can ruin everything. People, like a ton of stuff. Every relationship, money can ruin. Any relationship. Easily. It's true of all evil other than that, because I think he's the root of all evil. He also said that she was a drinker. He complained that she was never happy with anything, which I was like, why would she be if she was married to you? And also, you're talking about a woman that was murdered. Well, that's the thing. It's like,

okay, I don't like, maybe you, you guys weren't right for each other. It's very clear. Maybe neither one of you were happy at all. But you don't need to shit all over her while she's like, she's murdered. Like, she's the murdered mother of your child. I don't care if you don't think she was happy with anything. Like, that's done now. And so just like, what are you doing? Does it make any difference here? Well, that's what I'm like, what do those things? Not ringing as like, like, why are we even talking about this? Right. Like, why is this even something you're bringing up? She's, she's dead. She's been murdered horrifically. Yeah.

It's just, I don't understand it. Now, at some point or another, in that deposition, he told them that he had never even been to the place where Nancy's body was found. Did he fuck himself over with that? Very important for later. But for now, I have to move on to something else. All right. So on October, he gave that little tidbit. He had never been there.

Voluntarily. Never even been there. Nope. Not once. Now on October 27th, 2008, the Kerry Police Chief Pat Besemore, I believe is how you say it. announced to the public that Brad Cooper had officially been charged with first-degree murder. I wonder why. Yeah, because he is just really not hiding it well.

Yeah, it's so subtly guilty. Now, annoyingly enough, it would be another year and a half before the case went to trial in March 2011. I'm always like, why does it take so long? Everything's so slow. It is. Now, Brad's lawyer submitted a motion that the trial be held in another city so that they wouldn't run into any biases in the jury. But at that point, I had said earlier, Nancy's case was national news.

Yeah, that's what tends to happen in these things. It's like they want to move it out of the area. It's like anywhere you go. Do you want to move it to Saturn? Like you're not, no one. You're not going to move it to Saturn. Would you like a jury of aliens? You're not going to find anyone here who doesn't give a shit.

Right. Exactly. Like people tend to get mad when murdered mothers turn up. Yeah. And you're acting weird as fuck. But the application was denied. Needless to say. Yeah.

Because they were probably like that it will work. Exactly. That's exactly what it was. They were like, you're not going to find a place where there's no bias in this case. But the prosecution, I can not speak, the prosecution suggested that what had happened was that Brad had come home early from that barbecue, which we knew he did. And he had put the children to sleep in a room or like put them in a room so that they wouldn't see anything. And then he either grabbed Nancy from behind when she came in the room, which is why I said he didn't even look her

in the eyes, maybe, or that he began to choke her while she was sleeping. That's what they surmised. Now, once he was certain that she was dead, they said he drove her to the spot where she was discovered. And he had said before in the deposition that he'd never seen that spot, like I said. That was like super duper weird, though, because the FBI happened to find evidence on his computer that he searched for that specific area at 1.15 in the afternoon the day before Nancy was killed. What an actual dumbass, and I'm so happy for it. Literally typed in the zip code, zoomed into that area on Google Maps, zoomed, motherfucking into it at 1.15 in the afternoon the day before he killed her and knew that he was going

to put her there. Yikes. I'd never been there. Like, yeah, you've never been there physically, but you've been there on Google Mapsidly. Why, why are you looking for it? Like, why are you specifically looking at this area, but you've never been there? He zoomed in on it. And I'm honestly willing to bet that he did do it while she was sleeping, just because there was no other injuries, like fighting injuries or anything. thing and I think she was caught off guard completely. Even if it was from behind, I feel like there would be some kind of. Yeah, I agree with me.

Yeah, I could totally see that. Both, it's just horrific in all ways. It really is. And they theorized that when he got home from dumping her body, he cleaned the house in the car, washed her clothes, and made a fake phone call to make it seem like she was still alive. Now, there were dozens of witnesses at the trial, so many that all of their testimonies took 36 days to get through. Oh, my God.

And it made it the longest and. most expensive trial in the history of Wake County. Wow. Crazy. Now, the defense brought forward a man who claimed to have slept with Nancy while she was married because they were trying to show that the infidelity wasn't only on Brad's part, and they were basically just also trying to tarnish her name. It's also like, none of this matters.

It's like, you had a, that's a terrible marriage, first of all. And she was murdered. Right. That doesn't give anyone the right to murder her. Exactly. Just divorce. And now that I'm thinking. of it, it's like, why would you bring that forward? Because realistically, that would only prove that

he was even angrier at her. So that's even more motive if that didn't even happen. Yeah. It's just stupid move. You're just bringing up to try to tarnish her, a dead woman? Like, that's so fucked. Okay. Now, they also argued that the evidence on Brad's computer had been planted, though they couldn't say by who. I was just going to say, by who? Yeah. Who planted that very specific evidence on his computer? Basically, and if you watch the daily, one of if his lawyers is interviewed, and he is basically saying that the police did it without saying that because he's a lawyer

and he knows how to talk around things. But I was like, uh, I hope he stretched before that reach. He does. You should have, because you definitely straight yourself. You could pull a damn muscle.

I hope you pulled all of them. But the prosecution had a member of the FBI testify that they had seen no evidence of tampering with Brad's computer. Yeah, the Fibbo is like, no, the Fibby is like, I think I know what I'm,

I'm doing here. It is worth mentioning that the prosecution, excuse me, the defense, his defense lawyers tried to bring in like two expert witnesses in computer things. And the judge said no to it because probably because the FBI had already said like it didn't happen. Yeah, like a pretty like unbiased entity like in this whole situation. And I guess one of the people that they were trying to bring forward, the judge was like they're not even qualified to talk about that. It's like in the West Memphis three case when they tried to bring in all these quote unquote experts. experts and they were like, hey, do you have a degree? And he's like, nah. He's like, just one that I printed off this internet page. One time I read the word demon, and so I think I'm pretty much a demonologist

now. And like, the judge was like, that's fine. You're like, expert. Luckily, this judge was like, that's not an expert. I'm glad. And then the other witness that they tried to bring forward, it was like too late in the game. So basically he was like, just stop. Like, you're not, it's not working. Yeah. Now, Brad, in the beginning of things, had said that the morning that Nancy went out jogging, he went to the store twice at some point, which I was like, why'd you go to the store twice? But I don't know, maybe he forgot something. And he said that on the way back he had talked to Nancy on the phone.

So when the defense talked about the phone call, Brad had made to Nancy the morning she had been killed, they thought that that would prove that he couldn't have killed her because they were on the phone, like, as she had been killed. The prosecution, however, was aware of what. Brad's job was. He was a computer whiz and again one of the few people in his line of work merging internet and phone technology. Yeah. And there was evidence that he had signed a certain kind of router out of work and he had never returned it. This particular router would have made it possible for him to schedule a phone call on his computer to Nancy's phone at any point in time

for any duration that he'd like. What? Because fucking computer, like, computer. Like, Computer shit is scary. Yeah, that is scary. It's scary that there are people out there that can do whatever the fuck they were on your computer. That's really scary. It absolutely is. So, yeah, they were like, he could have done that, like, easily. Did they have a time of death, like, during the autopsy?

I didn't. Or they could determine whether it was night or the following morning. I didn't see anything about that. Yeah, because I was going to say somebody should be able to just immediately disqualify the morning jog. Yeah, that's true. But maybe not. Maybe not. I don't know.

Yeah. It wasn't mentioned in anything that I saw. Honestly, she was found two days later. And face down in water. Yeah, I totally forgot about how many days later. So that would definitely be hard to determine that small amount of hours. Yeah, probably just like fucked everything up. So the whole thing with the router was that he had signed that out of work.

And they knew what that router was capable of. He had never returned it and it was missing from the home when they searched the home. So that's like a fucking smoking gun. Now, they also found evidence on the computer that showed he was lying when he had originally said that he went to bed when he got home from the barbecue. He said he put the kids to bed and he went to bed and he and the kids were both asleep around like nine o'clock. That was like really weird though because he was up on the computer until like literally

the time that Nancy came home. And as a computer was, he should have known that this was all going to be able to be found. One would think. In addition to that, one of his former girlfriends came forward. and filed an affidavit calling him emotionally abusive and mentally cruel. In this affidavit, she wrote, quote, I never before and have never again been in a relationship with someone who treated me so poorly. She also said that things got so bad in their relationship that she feared for her personal

safety toward the end. I feel so bad for her. That's everything you need to know right there. There it is. So when the jury came back, the verdict was unanimous, guilty of first degree murder. And with that, Brad Cooper was sentenced to life in prison. Good, and those kids get to stay with the grandparents. They're actually with Krista.

Oh, my God. Yeah, I'll... Okay, good. Yeah, I mentioned it later. I'm glad. But we're not done yet. In 2013, Brad's lawyers appealed his conviction on the grounds that the judge during the first trial wouldn't allow them the witnesses that they wanted to testify about the

tampering with the computer. Again, a member of the fucking FBI testified that there was no evidence of tampering, so I feel like that sufficed, but apparently not. And he was granted a new trial. Now, instead of going to, through an actual trial, he took a plea deal, which Nancy's family, like, was really happy about and supported because at that point, they just didn't want to go through all of this again. The girls were older. They already knew what was going on. It just didn't need to get any further than it already I just, it must just be so much emotional torture hearing about your murdered child in the way that like the prosecution wants to talk about, or the defense wants to talk about them. And then just to find out

about things that were going on. Because that's the thing. It's like the defense is going to sit there and try to tear them down. So it's like you're going to have to sit there and not be able to react. Right. While someone tears down your murdered child, their legacy, you know what I mean? Or you're going to get kicked out of the courtroom. Or making like lies or trying to prove that this man that treated her horribly is actually this great man and was a great father and a great husband and you're sitting there being like, no, he wasn't. Right. Like I know this personally. Yeah, it must be so infuriating. Exactly. So luckily, they were supportive of the plea deal, but it wasn't a great one. Brad ended up pleading guilty to second degree murder this time. And as a

result, he got 12 to 15 years in prison. One of the biggest points, however, in the plea deal was that Brad gave up parental rights to his two daughters and would never be. be allowed to contact them. Good. And like I said, Nancy's twin sister, Krista, ended up getting custody of the two girls. And by all accounts, they're thriving. They have cousins that they're now like sisters with. Oh, I love it. Okay. Thank you for that because I was like, oh, I need them to be okay. They're okay. I mean, obviously. After everything they've gone through. They're going to go through a lot, like, no, like later on. Yeah, of course. All that. But thankfully, they have a good system around them. They're being raised by like the most amazing people, it seems. Now, after all, was said and done with the trial.

Nancy's family created the butterfly fund, which is a charity that will help abused woman. And the hope is that Nancy's daughters and her nieces will someday be able to run the charity in her name. And the family actually wanted to do even more to keep her memory alive. So Nancy's younger sister Jill and her dad created this program. And it helps women get out of abusive relationships and help them get back on their feet. Amazing. Apparently it operates as a very low-key mission. It's like under the radar kind of thing.

so women can go there without their families or anybody knowing, like so that there's no kind of stigma put on them afterwards or during. It's a Monday through Friday program. It's six months long and over 170 women have been through the program and many of them have just gone on to lead like happy lives and get away from their abusers. Amazing. And Jill said that by the time most of the women are ready to leave, they just look like totally completely different people.

I love that. Nancy's family said that the hardest part of the whole case. obviously other than losing their loved one, was the fact that Brad never apologized to them or gave them any kind of explanation of anything. Yeah, that would be the hardest part. Like, nothing. And Jill said he actually glanced at her for a moment, like, while he was on trial, and she said that there was a slight smirk on his face, like she could have sworn.

Shockingly, Brad served his sentence and walked out of prison in November 2020. What? Yep. he's a free man he's just around yep served his sentence for murder murdering his wife no i hate it and is out of prison no yep but i don't want to end on that note i think one of the most important things that was said during this whole case was something that was said by nancy's father when speaking about domestic violence he said it's like running up a very gradual hill until you look backward you don't know you're doing it. And I think that's what domestic violence done in this fashion is all about.

It's very gradual. Oh, that's horrific. Absolutely horrible. The only thing that I'm happy about is that he can never contact those children. Exactly. Like he gave up all his parental rights. Thank goodness. That was part of it.

I don't know who thought to add that in there, but all of the kudos to you. Yeah. For real. All of the kudos. And I think it's so important to note that like her, father's so right. Domestic violence is such a gradual thing. Like it starts with little tiny things. Oh yeah. Keeping you away from your family. Then it sort of like goes up into financial things. And then it's like, I'll do the, you can't go here. Like you can't go there. It's, well, it's control. It's slowly controlling a person by removing any

lifeline they have or any kind of independence they could ever have from you. And sometimes it happens so slowly that the people around you don't even realize it's happening and then you have no way of telling them. That's why these things end up so many times like this, like some, a tragic, tragic thing because there's just no, it feels like there's no way out. Right. And a lot of times there really isn't a way out. It's horrible. If you are in that situation, because again, it's like, it's dangerous. It's dangerous to leave sometimes too and it's dangerous to stay. So a lot of times people feel like there isn't an option. There's no other option. Right.

But seriously, if you are in this position or you love or care about or even just know somebody that's in this position, there is a way out. There are so many resources that you can go to. And one of them that I have is the National Domestic Violence Hotline. You can call 1-800-799 safe. And that's 1-800-7-9-7233. You can text start to 8-8-7-88-8. Again, start to 88788.

Or you can go to thehotline.org slash get dash help. And you can chat live with like a person on that website and there is a way to get out safely. And because this is a Canadian case, we also want to throw some of those out there. I think Elena has those for you. I have a couple that I found. So there is sheltersafe.ca.ca that you can go to. It provides information to help connect women and their children all across Canada with the nearest shelter in their area for safety and support in a time of crisis. There is also a hotline called Hope for Wellness 24-7.

The number is 1855-242-342. 3-310. And it's available to all indigenous peoples across Canada who are seeking immediate crisis help. That's amazing. And so I think that shelter safe is a really good one. And those are the ones that we found, but we'll put them all in the show notes too. But yeah, please try to get help because there's help out there. Yes. And if you love somebody, try to get them help, just take care of each other. Take care of each. Be kind to each other. We're all humans. Just treat people the way you want to be treated. Why is that such a hard concept? We start learning that when we're like three years old.

Like what? And it's, it just, I can't. This kind of stuff is just like, oh, it really is sad, but it's so important to tell these tales so that hopefully it can help somebody else in the future and not go through this. And I'm glad that Nancy's legacy is now helping other women get out of that situation. Exactly. Like that takes the power back from Brad. It really does. It really does. Brad can go fuck himself. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So thank you for listening. Yeah. And we hope you keep it weird. obviously I don't even have to tell you not to keep it this way because that's really ridiculous if you try to keep it that weird and I will find you. Be nice to each other.