Morbid - H.H. Holmes Part 1

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

When Boston police arrested Dr. Henry Howard Holmes in a West End boarding house on November 17, 1894, they assumed they had apprehended an interstate criminal guilty of defrauding the Fidelity Insurance company of $10,000 and of being a horse thief in Texas. Holmes had been tracked to New England by the Pinkerton Detective Agency, who had suspected him of other crimes in various cities across the country; yet even the most seasoned and creative detective couldn’t have imagined the horrific scope and magnitude of crimes he’d committed.Thanks Dave for this magnificent synopsis!Thanks to Care/of for being a sponsor of this episode. For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code MORBID50. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. It's a morbid. Mini, mini, mini, mini, mini, mini, mini, mini, mini, mini. Mini morbid. Mini morbid. I guess this is technically the mini, but we don't do, I mean, considering we just recorded your episode and it was two hours long, this is the mini, but it's not a real mini. But it's like a normal, because that's what we do now. Because we just. love this show. We just want to give you full-length episodes and call them minis. Yeah, that's what we want to do. Because Elena's was so ridiculously long, that's so fucking good, we decided not to do any bidness in the beginning. Yeah, we just cut right to it. But because mine is like a little bit, a lot of it shorter than Alinas, we're going to do some bidness. Let's do some bidness. So our shows, we're not going to be

at the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia on August 11th, but we will be there. We will. We're going to be there. We're working on another date for that one. So hang on to your tickets you already have, we will have another date for you. Yes. Very unlikely that on September 16th we'll be at the DC Improv in Washington, D.C., but we'll work on it. We're all holding on to hope here. It was looking a lot more likely a couple months ago. Yeah, but then everybody just stopped doing what they were doing, I guess. Wear your masks. September 23rd, we have two shows in Nashville at Zanies. Yay, Zanies. September 24th, we have a show in Huntsville, Alabama at Stand Up Live. Huntsville. Two shows October 11th at Talia Hall in Chicago.

go. Oh, everyone crossed their fingers that were there during spooky season. And a lot of people have asked just while we're speaking of October, if we're going to be at CrimeCon, we are supposed to be there. Yeah, we're still planning on being there if Florida gets its shit together. I'm going to be honest with it. Yeah. We're planning on being there, but if it's the same as it is now, we probably won't be there. But as of right now, we will be there. I'm watching very closely to see what that creepy does. Well, and I'm wondering if it's going to get, um, if, it's even still on. Yeah, they might change it again. Who knows, because we don't know where we'll be in October. But if it's still a thing, we'll see you there. We will be there as long as it's safe.

You get your shit together, Florida. Oi. November 10th, we're going to be at the comedy zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte. Shalett. Jean Shalett. Gene Shalett. And then November 11th, we're supposed to be at the Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, North Carolina. Raleigh, I really want to come to North Carolina. As do I. January, I don't have it in front of me, is it, 27th? 27th. January 27th, we're going to be in Greenwich Village, Colorado at Comedy Works South. And I, that one seems good. Yeah, I mean, that was just recently rescheduled.

If we're not good by January, I'm going somewhere else. Yeah, I'm going somewhere. I'm going to the moon, Alice. I don't know. And then last, but absolutely not least, March 26th, 2021, we will fucking see you at the Wilbur Theater in Boston because if it's not settled by Mark, I'm on my way to Mars. That's right.

And get your tickets for that show. Go on the Wilburr.com website and get your tickets because we want to fill that place up with crazy weirdos. Do it. Tickets. Get your tickets. To the Wilbur show. We want to be able to fill the place so we can come back.

So make sure you get your tickets for it because we will be there in March. We will be there or we will be crying. We will be very sad. That's sad, sad. Well, oh, also, everybody. So we know that most of this time has been shitty lately because everything is going wrong in the world. And with COVID, with everything else, it's just like a horrible time right now. Sure is.

So we wanted to put a smile on your faces. We have a lot of exciting things coming up in July. July is going to be a fun morbid month. Fun morbid month. The first two weeks of July, we have big announcements. Yes. Big, big, big announcements. And then a few weeks into July.

you're going to know that from your announcement that something exciting is going to be there. It's true. You're going to know. If that explanation didn't get you excited that something's going to be there. That very clear and concise explanation. I mean, I don't know what more I could have said. Basically, July is going to be really fun for morbid. We're hoping it's going to be a really exciting, positive experience. We have tons of fun stuff happening.

And we can't wait to tell you. With that being said, it's time to move on to this. this week's case, which is ash-centric. It's ash-centric. Also, this human being seemed like she was ash-centric, and I really wish that we could have been best friends. I agree. I totally agree with that. This week, we're going to be talking about Marcia P. Johnson. Oh, let's do it. Now, I am so excited to talk about this. Most of this is going to be about Marcia's life just because Marsha's death did happen, obviously. Yeah. And like, it's definitely a questionable death, but there's not a ton about it because the investigation wasn't really a thing.

Yeah. Because it was a time. It was a time. Let's dive into this. Let's do it. Marsha P. Johnson was born on August 24th, 1945, and she was born in Elizabeth, New Jersey. Love that. So, Marcia's name at birth was actually Malcolm Michaels Jr.'s.

As most of you know, Marsha was essentially the most iconic transgender woman. Of all time, basically. So I think that, isn't that called, like, a dead name? I'm not sure. She would, she would go by both, so I don't necessarily know if hers was like a dead name. But I have her. I didn't know that, that she went by both. Sometimes she would, like, dress as Malcolm and, like, people would refer to her as Malcolm.

Her family referred to her as Malcolm or Marcia. It was very, like, back and forth. Fluid. Yeah, fluid. Cool. So she was the most iconic transgender woman, the most iconic drag queen, the most iconic activist. We're a big drag race.

Oh, seriously. Podcast here. We've really transitioned. Marcia was the fifth of seven children. Wow. A lot of kids. That's a lot of kids. And according to blackpast.org, I got a ton of information from there.

Really cool website. Blackpast.org. I found out there that Marcia knew that she identified as a woman since she was like super young. She started dressing up in girls' clothing around the age of five. Wow. And it's like, when you know, you know. Oh, yeah. Of course. Obviously, it was the 40s, like, or the late, early 50s, excuse me, and her parents weren't super stoked about that because that was just not a thing back then. That makes me so sad. It is really sad. Her parents weren't happy about it. And honestly, like, nobody was at all. Yeah, of course not. She said herself, no, not at all. She said herself that

she stopped for a while because the boys next door used to, quote, get fresh with her. Oh. That's what she said. She was. That just makes me sad. This is going to make you even sadder. She was sexually assaulted by one of those boys when she was about 12. Let's punch them in the face.

Let's punch all of them in the face. And she says she didn't even know like what sex was at that point. No, you're 12. She was like, I was married. Jesus. That's all I knew. That's all I knew. Her interviews are fucking incredible.

You're a baby. Well, that's the thing. You just don't know. And she's like, that's so fucked. She describes how it happens. I'm not going to say it, how she says it, but she's just like, yeah, this happened. And, you know, that's when I knew that that's how life worked. Oh.

And it's like, oh, okay. And so young to learn such a terrible lesson about how shitty people are. Seriously. So she did manage to get by and survive and finish high school. And after that, she was like, yeah, fuck this place. I'm going to New York. Fuck this mess. Fuck the shit out of this.

She went to New York with $15 to her. name and one bag of clothes. That kind of shit is always crazy to me. Especially back then, too. It's like, holy shit. Because even today when people are like, I moved to, you know, L.A. or New York with like 100 bucks in my bank account. And that was it. It's like, well, like, but how though? Like, where did you live? Like, how are you existing? Well, Marcia was homeless. But this really, this was the time in Marcia's life that was going to be like the catalyst to the rest of her life. So she was homeless and she would sleep in the movie theater and she did work as a sex worker to make money. A lot of people that knew Marcia, they say that they don't know how she got through this time.

But that was the time that she met her people and like came into her home. And like formed her family. And formed her family. So it was like a scary time in her life and like a very unsure time. But it was also an amazing time in her life. The time when she was forming like the foundation. Exactly. So she was spending a lot of her time on Christ.

Christopher Street. Christopher Street in Greenwich, is it Greenwich Village? Greenwich Village in New York. It was a place where a ton of members of the LGBTQ Plus community would kind of congregate and hang out. They do like voging and stuff, like have tons of fun. They were just having a fucking time. And they'd celebrate who they were together. So that's where, that's where Marcia's place was. She really began, she, that's when she started performing as a queen, coming into her own. Yeah. She said she never took drag seriously because she didn't have the money to. She was like, I was just doing what I wanted to do. Yeah, like, I didn't have the money to actually like really make it like a career. So she didn't have a lot of money. But the money that she did have, she spent it super wisely. And she made these like amazing flower crowns, which she's always pictured in.

Oh, wow. She really is your like soul sister. I was watching the documentary and I was like, and like reading all these articles and I was like, going to cry. And like I did actually. cry because I was like, I love you so much. She just seemed like the shit. Ugh. So she would weave these flower crowns into her hair and then she'd put on performances with these like gorgeous like flowers and her outfits that she put together, which her outfits were not like, they weren't anything like expensive or like super flashy. But the way she put them together, it was so awesome that it made her money.

Like that's how she made money. That's a skill. It is. her personality was so kind and so sweet. Everybody wanted to be around her. So that's how she really became who she was because it's who she was, like, gathered all these people around her that were like, you're the tits. We love you. You're the tits, Marsha. You're the tits, Mars. She had people around her all the time. And literally, like, not one person had anything bad to say about her. Which is like, I feel like that's always the case. Which makes it so much harder knowing how this ends.

Right. So let's go back. back to Christopher Street, Marsha's stomping ground. This seems like the Paris is burning kind of like scene. Oh, that's exactly what it is. It makes me think of that. Picture that. So Christopher Street was her stomping ground. That's basically, that's where her home was. Also, home to the Stonewall Inn, which I'm sure you've heard of. Sure have. So in the 1960s, a lot of the members of the LGBTQ plus community were not allowed in bars, like any bar at all. And there were constant raids to see if they were. In bars, because at the time, being gay was illegal. That will never get like, oh, yeah, that time.

Easier to swallow. Yeah, it's never like. That time when who you slept with was against the law. That's a consenting adult. Or like, not even who you slept with, who you danced with. Who you love. You couldn't dance with a member of the same sex in public or you would get arrested. Wow.

Wow. Anybody considered to be male dressed up as a woman would face sexual deviancy charges. That's insane. And it was completely normal for a bar to be fined for having that kind of activity or completely shut down just for serving somebody of that community. Wow. So like if you served a drink to like a gay man at the time, you either would have been fined or shut down.

So you literally have to be like, hey, are you gay? Because I can't serve you. Like you have to. Or not even. They just fucking read you and were like, oh, you're definitely gay, like judged you. And we're like, I can't serve you. Or the police walked in and saw that a gay or let. lesbian was being served and they were like, Walt, you're done, you're shut down.

Oh, my gosh. And they were basically being hunted in these raids. And imagine the NYPD taking all that time to do that kind of bullshit. Yeah, when they really could have been doing a lot of other better shit. Yeah, probably had some other stuff you could have been paying attention to. Probably, but who am I to say? Okay, NYPD. Okay.

So the Stonewall Inn was actually owned by members of the mafia, specifically of the Genevies crime family. Oh, shit. I did a whole project on them in my criminal justice class and coach. Intense. I did like a wicked huge project on that. Lots to do. I think one of the live shows I did, there was Lucky Luciano. He was either a member or like closely affiliated with the family. But anyway, that's a different story. So the mafia knew that the gay community needed a place to go and they ended up running a lot of the gay bars in New York when they came to that realization that that's how they could make a cook buck. I was going to say because they were like, Like, they're like, can make money.

That's where the money is that. So the Stonewall Inn was supposedly, or excuse me, it was supposed to be like a private, like bar. It was like a club where you brought your own alcohol. You were supposed to be while be. B. YOB. Kind of. And you were supposed to sign this guest book to get in. Like it was supposed to be this private exclusive thing.

Oh, okay. It wasn't really. They just did that for like a formality kind of thing. And it was mafia owned, like I said. It became huge in the gay community. This was the place to go because anybody was welcome as long as you had the money to get in. The mafia didn't care what the fuck you were doing. If you had the money, you were in. They don't care who you love. Just get in here with your money. Yep. And at the time, drag queens weren't welcome in any of like even the gay underground bars.

Drag queens weren't welcome because drag queens are the best. Drag queens are the best. I'm glad that that definitely switched over. But at the time, even in the LGBT community, the T wasn't loved. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. It was the L. G.B community. And they were like, yeah, we don't want to be associated with you. Keep the tea out of there. Which is fucked up. Yeah. But at the Stonewall, that's where, like, drag queens could go, perform and, like, live their best lives. So, and it was considered safe because a lot of the times, the crooked cops would warn the mafia that when these raids were going to be happening. So they got tipped off. Okay. Which that, then they could get their shit and check and be like, oh, we're closed tonight. Or, like, so and so yada, yada, you, you and you don't come.

in tonight. That makes sense. But on June 28th, which is Ma's birthday. So June 28th, 1969, police officers showed up at Stonewall unannounced. Didn't tip anybody off that they were coming. They arrested around 13 people. They beat so many people that were there. Female officers took women into the bathroom to verify their sex. That's fucking disgusting. Can you even imagine a time where like that is a thing that happens. I would, you're all corralled into the bathroom and you're, they're basically like pull down your pants.

Show me your vagina. Right. Like, that's not okay. I would, oh. And if, I want to kick those female cops in their vagina. Yep, me too. I want to kick all anybody in their penis or vagina if they did that to somebody. That makes me so angry,

the thought of somebody having to verify what's between their legs. That enrages me. That's like, what a violation? A violation of not even. like LGBTQ rights of human rights. That's such a violation. So if you were transgender and you did not have a sex change, you were arrested for cross-dressing, which would lead to a sexual deviancy charge. It's never going to be normal to me that like cops spent their fucking time doing this.

When there was so much else to be doing. I'm like, you guys are fucking losers doing this. Yeah, seriously. So people around the area and people who had made it out of the bar started fighting back against this raid because they were fucking done with these raids. Like, they were happening constantly, and it was like, it's time to fight back. And they're probably thinking the same thing. What the fuck are you guys spending your time doing this? Right. Nobody's hurting anybody. Like, we're all just here drinking, having a good time. We're not bothering you. We're not murdering people. We're not raping people. Solve some rapes and murders and some other stuff. Like, get out of our faces. Exactly. Well, people got especially angry when a woman who was a lesbian was arrested and,

hit over the head with a billy club. What the fuck? And as she got like hit in the head while she's getting arrested, she yelled at these people, like, let's do something. Are you going to fucking do something? And that's when people started like really fighting back, chanting gay power. We shall overcome. Yes.

They started throwing beer bottles, change anything they could at the police. The police took cover inside the stone wall in. Oh. I'm like, oh, so now that's your safe space? Okay. Okay. With the people that they arrested because they obviously. didn't want them to like get away. And they're trying to get away from it all. And that's when

somebody tried to set the building on fire. Oh, shit. So it's argued if a policeman or like policewoman was the one that set the stonewall in on fire or if it was like somebody in the angry mob or like who it was, nobody really knows. But people do speculate that a cop actually set it on fire. The fire department was able to save the building and everyone in it. But that was just the beginning. Oh yeah. That was just the deal. That was the catalyst. So Marsha P. Johnson, our girl, Hey, Marsha. Was 23 at the time that the Stonewall happened.

Stonewall had happened a whole night. And she was there when it happened. So she's believed to be one of the first people that started the resistance. Apparently, there's two stories. She either threw a shot glass at a mirror or threw it at a cop and said, I love this. She tossed it and she said, I got my civil rights. Like, now it's time to do this. She's like, fuck this.

She's like, all right, next on the lift. So for five days following the resistance at Stonewall, there was protests and gatherings and marches and just like gay people, lesbian people wanting to bring attention to the fact that this was a community and they weren't fucking going anywhere. Yeah. So the first Pride March happened because of the people who fought back and Marcia was one of the most influential people involved in the movement. Amazing.

Love it. I fucking love her so much. Such a badass. So Marcia had another friend who was a transgender woman and activist named Sylvia Rivera. They started Star House together. And that stands for Street Transvite, excuse me, Street Transvestites Action Revolutionaries. And obviously, back then it was acceptable. I mean, it was even acceptable when a Rocky Horror Picture show was out.

Yeah, exactly. That song, Sweet Transvestite. Yes. It's very weird to hear now. It is very weird to hear now. But it was one of those things that you look back on and you're like, ooh. Ooh. I was like, should I say that?

But that's what it was called. So, but we call it, they call it Star House, which I love. I love that. So Star House was a legit house where Sylvia and Marcia housed transgender youths who were homeless, like, and had nowhere else to go. They gave them clothing, money. They advocated for their rights. They were able to get the house by making a deal with Michael Umbarz, who was a mob guy.

So the mob, it's really, there's actually a lot of books about it that I found during this where the mob and the gay community were really closely knit together. That is so funny. It is funny, because I never knew that. I didn't know how closely connected it was. No, but they were. Wow. So he owned the building and basically the building wasn't in good shape at all. It was like dilapidated. And they told him, let us get in there for cheap, like give us cheap rent and we're going to renovate the building. Yeah. And he was like, cool, let's get it. Let's get it. And that's exactly what they did. They fucking renovated the place, like, completely. It was like, they did a great job. Marcia referred to the people who lived in the house as her children, and they called her the queen mother. Oh, stop it. Like, okay. Like, okay. Sylvia herself said that Marcia was like a mother to her and that Marcia saved Sylvia's life. Because Sylvia's life was tragic. Her father was never around, like from the start. He left basically at her birth.

When she was three years old, her mother completed suicide. Oh, no. And then Sylvia ran away from home when she was 11 because she started getting beat and abused when her family found out that she was wearing women's clothing. Can you imagine for putting on a dress? Like, now you see little boys all the time wearing like also and ono dresses. And it's fine. Like, who gives a fuck?

Like, their children. Like, I literally never care. As long as it is weather appropriate, I don't care what my kid is wearing at all. They dress themselves every day. Right. Because it doesn't fucking matter. It's like it doesn't mean anything. And like, be who they are?

Am I asking you to wear it? No. So let me live my life. And also, I'm a, I'm female and I don't like wearing dresses. No. I mean, I like wearing dresses. Let's stop shoving it on people. Well, it's just saying like, stop making a norm for like across the whole thing.

Right. You're a girl. You need to wear dress. I go in the men section of Target all the time and buy the big t-shirts and like, cut them up. And like, I'm like, cool, this is mine now. It's just, I don't understand, like, where, I, social, it's so weird how social, like, gender norms came about. It really is. It was just, like, women do this.

Well, if you think about it, it was illegal for women to wear pants for a long time. Like, what the fuck? And that's, you know what? That's where it came from when it was, like, you have to wear a dress. Right. So nuts. So that's why Sylvia ran away. So she was, like, a preteen when she met Marcia.

And basically, she says Marcia saved her life and they became, like, best friends. But Marcia was really a mother figure for Sylvia. and all the other kids in this house. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. But she gave Sylvia full credit for founding Star House, and she said that she was just like a vice president. She was like, nope, like this is Sylvia. I'm just along for the ride. We love a humble queen. Right?

I'm like probably going to cry during this one because I fucking love her so much. A ton of people referred to her as a saint, and it really seemed like she was. She would take some, like, if you complimented her on like a scarf or a brooch or even probably the flowers in her hair, she would immediately be like, oh, you like this? Like, here you go. Take it off and give it to you. And people like that are so rare. They seriously are. So Star House was amazing, but it was super short-lived.

Mike ended up kicking them out because they couldn't make rent. That makes me sad. Which it's like they didn't, they didn't really have an opportunity to get the jobs that other people got because they were transgender. Exactly. So they were like turning tricks and trying to do anything they could just to put a roof over their heads. And then at the end of the day, they weren't able to do that. And he just fucking kicked them to the curb. That sucks. So Sylvia went on to develop another Star House location,

but that one really didn't last long either for the same exact reasons. So in a 1973 rally for gay rights, Sylvia got up on stage and like pleaded to the thousands of members that they just weren't doing their part for their transgendered brothers and sisters. And that she was like, there's literally transgender people in jail right now writing to Star House. for me to help them, and they need your help. And I'm the only one advocating for this. Like, please help us. Like, I can't do this alone. Exactly. That's exactly what she was saying. She begged them to listen to make a change, and they all just fucking booed her. That's fucked. Like, booed. And these are members of the LGBT community. It's so crazy.

And back then, they did not want to be associated with the tea. That's nuts. I had no idea that that was so like. Neither did I. It was such a disconnect. I had no idea. A huge disconnect. And it's because really of Marsha and Sylvia and people that worked with them that the tea is included now. Yeah, absolutely. And it took a long time. So she faces this huge booing crowd. And after this, she really has a rough go of it because, I mean, both star houses failed. And this was like her dream. She just wanted to advocate and help. And she felt like she couldn't. So for a while, she started drinking heavily. She lived on the Christopher Street peers. And after we find out that Marcia passes away, this is just a little glimpse into Sylvia's life.

And after Marcia passes away, that's when Sylvia really faces like a huge decline. Oh, that makes me sad. She's homeless for a long time because there was a big homeless community living on the Christopher Street peers and the NYPD did a sweep of the homeless people there. And that's what they called it, a sweep. A sweep. It's like, okay. So.

Okay. But her life does turn around. I'm just going to, I just wanted to focus on her for a second. In 1997, she showed up at a house that was a lot like the Star House. And this is Sylvia? This is Sylvia. The Transy House, and that's what it's called. Rusty May Moore and Chelsea Goodwin were a transgender couple, and they were living with

their friend who was also transgender. Okay. Now, they didn't set out to, like, advocate or anything, but Word got around that two transgender women, like, owned this house. So then people started showing up there because they were like, oh, like, especially transgender men and women were like, oh, maybe you can help me. Yeah. And it kind of turned into Star House.

Oh, that's so crazy. That's, like, not at all what they set out to do. It, like, organically turned into. to a Star House. Exactly. So Word got around and the three of them really started helping people. And it was just a happy accident. And Sylvia spent the last years of her life there. So her life completely turned around. She got sober. She ended up living there. She met a partner there. I love it. She got to travel, just like Marcia did around the world at different pride and gay events. And at one event, they ended up like chanting her name, like calling her a queen and like thanking her for everything that she did. Oh, that's so

nice to hear. It's amazing. She passed away in 2002, but her memory lives on in a huge way. A lot of people say that Sylvia was like the Rosa Parks of the transgender movement. Oh, wow. And had Marcia lived longer, the two of them would have done it together for much longer. Sylvia's Place now, it's called Sylvia's Place. It's a shelter for trans women and those looking to escape domestic abuse, abusive relationships. It's still around today. And you can donate to Sylvia's Place by going to to sylvia's place.com slash take dash action slash donate. I want to donate. I wanted to too, so we can donate after this. Let's do it. So that was just a quick glimpse into like Sylvia and Marsha's relationship. I love that. But now we're going to go back to Marsha. All right, back to Marsha. So Marcia had a wild life. After she did everything at Stonewall and like the marches and everything,

she joined Hot Peaches. Hot Peaches was a theater group that focused on LGBTQ plus culture. It was like, basically they travel doing these shows. I love that. It was awesome. They're still around today, I'm pretty sure. Hot Peaches. It's Chef's Kiss. M-Mois. She was working with the company, and they travel a ton. So she got to travel between America and Europe and back and forth all the time. In 1975, she posed for Andy Warhol in a Polaroid, which is iconic. And the Polaroid was later used in a collection called Ladies and Gentle. woman, which is so cool. It's so crazy to me, but it's true that Marsha, she wasn't famous when she was alive at all, which is, I'm like, you post for Andy Warhol, you're in this theater

group, you're doing all these fucking awesome things, but she was by no means famous. I think that happens a lot. It does. Like, they're doing all this awesome stuff, but they're just one of those, like, people about town. You know what I mean? And that's exactly who she was. They do these cool things, but they're just not recognized for it. Right. So one of her friends actually went with her to check out Andy Soup screen of her at a store on Christopher Street, and they were thrown out of the store. They didn't recognize that she was the lady in the picture. So that just speaks to the fact that it's like she was so fucking cool and she should have been famous, but they were like, yeah, get the fuck out of here. Get out of here. Because she was transgender. And that wasn't the

first time that she was kicked to the side. So in 1973, just like Sylvia was kind of booed off the stage, those organizing the Pride parade didn't want Marcia or any other drag queens leading the parade with them because they didn't want to be aligned with the drag queens. So they were like, go to the back or like, don't be here at all. Like, we don't want you here. Wow. So because of everything that she went through in her life, she had a super hard time with mental health. She spent a lot of time, a lot of time trying to get that under control. She spent time in psychiatric hospitals. And she said that she had been arrested so many times that she stopped counting when she hit the hundredth time. Oh, my God. Which I was like, whoa. That's a lot. In the 80s,

Marcia helped a ton of people that were suffering from the AIDS virus, and she tried to advocate for them. And in 1992, she confirmed that she too was suffering from the AIDS disease. Oh, wow. But AIDS is not what Marcia died from. So, no, it is not. On July 6th, 1994, Marcia's body was found floating in the Hudson River right off the West Village Pierce. That's so sad. She was 46 years old. And the police were really quick to say that she had completed suicide, but anybody that knew her was like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. I don't think that's what happened. And they were like, we want answers. Like, please investigate this. Yeah. But obviously, even still in the 90s, like for transgender people, it was not, even now. I was going to say, it's 2020. And we're still not doing the same thing. Like, it just wasn't investigated. Like, it should have been. So those who believe that Marsh's death was a result of suicide. said that she had been giving her things away in the weeks before her death. But like I mentioned before, that's just who she was. I was going to say that's not something she was like trying to get rid of all her stuff.

She was just like, oh, here you like it, take it. So that's not a valid argument. And it's like the Bryce Las Pisa thing. Exactly. We've mentioned him a lot recently. So I feel like this is kind of one of those things where we've talked about this on the show before. I think because Marcia was transgender, she was considered less dead.

And that's why nothing was done about this. Yeah. It's like when, you know, serial killers will target sex workers or, you know, drug addicts or something, they're seen by law enforcement as less dead. Exactly. It's definitely the same thing. So the main issue in Martha's case is that there's so many conflicting stories of the last time that she was seen. Hmm. So Randy Wicker was Marcia's roommate.

And the last time that he saw her was on July 2nd. Okay. But then there's reports from people that they say they saw her on July 4th. Huh. And in fact, there's evidence that Marcia was seen super, super late on the night of July 5th and that two men were following her. Oh. So she seemed, according to this, like, eyewitness account, she seemed scared. She was heading toward the West Village Pierce, where she ended up, like, basically found dead there.

And that's basically exactly where she turned up. And Randy says on the Netflix documentary, The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson, which is a really good documentary, go watch it. Yeah. He blames himself for Marsh's death, so let's get into that and why he thinks he has something to do with it. Now, do you know what her cause of death was? I'll tell you. Okay. So, I'll tell you in a minute.

Let's focus on Randy for a second. Let's focus on Randy. So, Randy was trying to gain control of the Christopher Street Festival Committee. This particular committee ran a portion of events at the gay pride, like all the gay pride events. Okay. Randy basically launched his own investigation out of his own pocket, which cost him $5,000, and he hired a PI to look into this whole thing. Damn, Randy.

Because he was among a lot of people that thought the people running the festival were embezzling a lot of the money that they were making. And he was like, this is being run completely crooked. I'm not interested. Like, I'm in, or I am interested in taking this over. Like, I'm not going to let this happen. So he later learned that there had been a threat against him. him to leave Jacques Guerin and a man named Red alone.

It seemed like the mafia was profiting from the event as well. So again, another tie to the mob here because they had some heavy ties and the mob didn't want this getting looked into. So Randy found out from Victoria Cruz, who is another transgender activist, and she's the one in the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson. She launched her own investigation into Marsha's death. And she found out that there was a message meant for Randy that he never got. And it basically said, tell Randy what happened to Marsha will happen to him if he doesn't leave Red and Jacques alone.

Oh, shit. So it's like, okay. Well, there's that. Obviously something was going on there and it included the mafia. Yeah. And it's like, that's exactly what I mean, that's like cut and dry to me. Yeah, to me, that's like, okay, investigate. So because there wasn't much of an investigation here, obviously there's still all this mystery surrounding Martha's death. So you would ask what the cause of death was. Yeah. The cause of death was changed from drowning to undetermined causes. Huh. So at first they said it was drowning. And then they were like, actually, it's undetermined. And then it was closed. Drowning is a pretty, a pretty clear thing to see. Very clear, obviously. And they said that she was like, hands down alive when she entered the water. So it's like, but was she chased into the water? And then she drowned. Was she

unconscious? Like, exactly. So in 2012, the case was reopened and it's open like currently. Oh, good. So I'm glad it's opened. Exactly. So you see in the documentary that I mentioned, Victoria Cruz trying to get Marcia's autopsy report. Now, when she's finally able to get the report, she's told, or before she's able to get the report, she's told that it's lost. It's not the complete version. There's missing papers. And basically, the woman especially that she's talking to on the phone is like, yeah, I just like kind of don't give a shit.

That's like, she doesn't say that, but everything that she's saying is pointing to the fact that she just doesn't care. I don't care. And she just doesn't want to talk about it. So she is finally able to get it, but it's not the complete version. And when she does get it, she sits down with your bro, Dr. Michael Baden. Yes. And she wants to go over whatever.

She wants to go over what everything means because there's a lot of language on autopsy reports that you're like, what does that mean? Yeah, you need a pathologist to help you. So I think it's Dr. Baden, actually. Is it Bodden? Is it Bodden? Yeah. Well, Dr. Michael Bodden. Yeah.

So they reference in the report that there's a lot of discoloration. And I literally just wrote in my notes. I can imagine that would have something to do with being in the water, but let's ask a lady. So would discoloration lead to, or would that her being in the water lead to the discoloration? The scoloration to me points more towards like it possibly, I mean, possibly like liver mortis, which is like the pooling of blood in certain places in your body. Would it be because she was like laying down in the water? But that would be because she's laying in a certain position dead for a certain amount of time.

Okay. And gravity will take it wherever the lowest point is. Would water speed that up? Water can definitely cause a bunch of stuff to happen to a body. Right. I mean, water does some gnarly shit to a body. And that's, I feel like that's probably why it made it so hard in this case to determine like exactly what happened. Yeah, depending on how long she was in there, any number of things could

happen. Okay, so they noticed that there are hemorrhages in a lot of different areas of the brain. Okay. So, Dr. Michael Bodden explains to Victoria that a violent assault was, like, can be ruled out. Like, he doesn't think there was any assault here because there's no impact or injury to Marsh's body revealed in the autopsy. Okay. But that leads me to wonder, like, was it, was an autopsy actually, done the correct way. Yeah. Because there's really no explanation for all these hemorrhages. The hemorrhage is the only thing I could have... I'm trying to think of it. The only thing I could think of is like some kind of concussion kind of thing. But then it's like there's no like blunt force trauma or anything like that. Is it like she was... Yeah. That's weird. And there's no answers because

this just wasn't investigated. So hopefully it comes out like why that would happen. It's like no evidence of strangulation or asphyxia? No, none. To explain all that? That's weird. The cause of death is like basically she drowned. So it's like the basically Dr. Michael Bodden says the question is, did she drown because she was being chased into the water? Or did she just want to complete suicide and she jumped into the water? Yeah. She's like there's two, he's like there's very like conflicting. Yeah. Possibilities here. But the fact that there's eyewitness testimony of these two then following her into the water, or to the pier. And she looked scared. It's like, what was going on? So there was a witness who saw the body and said that there was a hole in Marcia's head. Oh.

So Bodden explains that this likely happened while the body was in the water because of floating debris and faster deterioration because the water was, it's warmer water. Okay. I mean, yeah, well, I mean, warmer water. And if you're in the water for a long time, your skin's going to get slippage and it's going to get. It's almost like how we talked about the soap, the woman that became soap. Yeah, well, and it's like your skin will just become like paper thin. Right. Like anything is going to be able to penetrate it at that point.

But a hole in her head? A hole in her head. But that was... Because it doesn't do anything with your bones. I mean, was it like a giant like... It was just like what somebody saw. But then in the autopsy, it's not really noted. So it's like, was that just kind of a rumor?

Did he see that? And the kid is on camera and he's like, no, there's a fucking hole in her. her head. But on the autopsy, and again, remember, this is not the complete autopsy. So where the fuck is the complete autopsy? Yeah, I want to know. That's the problem. So people in Marcia's life say that she was worried that the mob was after her and she was becoming increasingly scared and increasingly nervous in her last few weeks alive. According to a witness, they did see Marcia get into a car with three, and they described them three Italian men, we'll say. Yes. So So basically nobody, like, that's the last eyewitness report of Marcia and then she ends up in the water.

But it's like she got in the car and somebody says that, but then they say she was out of a car and she was being followed by two men. So it's like, what is it? Which one happened? But it was never fucking investigated. That's the thing. Like, why is no one talking to anybody and trying to place together, you know, piece together this shit? That's the thing. And basically it's just all these documentaries and stuff about Marcia, it's just trying to spread awareness of like the few facts that we do have.

so that we can hopefully get to lead something to lead to answers here because there's so much question around her whole death. Huh. So. I feel like though it's like anytime you're involved in the mob with the mob, it's like you got a question, a weird death. Yeah, 100% but nobody wanted to. And it's because she was transgendered.

So I think in this case that two things are for sure. I think Martha's death is real, real suspicious and I totally think she was murdered. Yeah, something weird happened. Because it's like there wouldn't be all these questions if she had just... If it was just cut and dry. And there were people close to her and they would have known if she was suicidal and wanted to end her life. It's like... Yeah, I mean, there's times when no one knows.

That is true. I do want to make sure, like, we look at it that way that like sometimes people will be like, I had no idea. Right. And they sometimes people hide it. But it's like all the little inklings of like the mob and then... When you're involved with the mob and then like... These weird eyewitness testimonies of like she was being followed. or she got into a car with like suspicious people.

And these weird messages that were being like threatening. Right. Like what happened and Marsha will happen to you if you keep asking questions basically? Boom. That's saying it right there. So that's the one thing that's for sure is that her death is suspicious. Yeah. But the other thing is that she will forever be known as one of the most influential, most amazingly dedicated woman in LGBTQ plus history.

She was a pioneer. She was a motherfucking pioneer. So many people will go on to remember Marcia. And there's actually supposed to be monuments honoring both Marsha and Sylvia in Greenwich Village right near Christopher Street. I love that. And Governor Cuomo, who I know a lot of people are like in love with. I know. A lot of people really like this Quomo back.

Yeah. People like them. Yeah. They announced recently, or he announced recently, that the East River Park is going to be renamed in honor of Marsha P. Johnson. That's awesome. So I thought that was super cool. Love that. And then there's two documentaries that I watch that I think that you should watch.

And actually these documentaries are like kind of feuding with each other, the creators, because... It's like the fire festival docs. Yeah, right. So the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson was done after Happy Birthday Marcia. Okay. And the girl that did Happy Birthday Marcia is a transgender woman. And she says that the guy who did the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson got all his shit from her. And she's like pissed off about it.

So they're feuding right now about that. But I thought they were both really fucking cool things. So take your side. Pick your side. But I thought they were great. I'm right in the middle. There you go. I'll watch both. I'll watch both. So that is the life and very suspicious, confusing death of Marsha P. Johnson. Wow. That was, that was crazy. I just feel like her, like, story is important to tell. The death part is just, like, so confusing and there's just no answers. No, that's, that's, like, fascinating. It is fascinating. Something's going on. I love that Dr. Michael Botton is involved. I know you'd be stoked about that. But we love when his name pops up. We love him. We love him. I also love that I know how to say his name now.

Yeah, I think because I've been saying it wrong forever, apparently Baden, because I think one of our listeners actually was like, hey, it's like pronounced like Bauden. And they were like kind of like Baudy, like Bauden. Bauden body. That makes sense. Well, there's also a ton of cool pictures that I can post for this episode, which I'm stoked about, especially of Sylvia and Marcia. They were bad bitches. Yes, they were bad bitches. Bad bids alert. So follow us on Instagram at Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Twitter. A morbid podcast. Send us a Gmail. morbid podcast at gmail.com. We hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you're a douche and that you don't think transgender people are involved in the LGBTQ plus community because they totally are and everybody's involved and we love you so much. Bye. They are people. Everyone's people.

Love you. Bye. Bye.