Morbid - Joe Metheny

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid. Oh yeah it is. Yeah, this one's gonna be a doozy, huh? Guys, guys girls. This one, this is one of those cases. It's just one of those cases. A deep, dark, spooky, horrific, brutal, gruesome case. Yeah, that about covers it and so we're gonna be covering the Moore's murders by Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, we're probably going to be covering them in three parts. One, two, three. And Elena's decided to really put her fricking pencil to the paper, kind of, and she's going to give you all the cases two days apart. Exactly. We're not going to make you wait long for these ones because they're really intense, and I've pretty much already finished them. So you're going to get them. There's

Starting point is 00:01:18 only going to be two days between each one. They're going to be right after the other. It's going to be three-parter. No cases in between. You're going to get like full Moors murders for the entire. week. So you'll be done by Saturday. Well, just so you know. And I guess I'll try to do something light and fluffy on Wednesday. Yeah, just to make it a light, fluffy. Yeah. So it's going to be all Moore's murders all the time this week. Get excited because it's terrible. Get your, get your butt glue together. Just just gorilla glue your hands to your butt to hold it together. Because this is a case, I think I mentioned it last week when I was saying I was going to cover this. This is a case that was

Starting point is 00:01:56 You know how everybody who's been into true crime forever? You have a couple cases that just have stuck with you, a couple cases that you couldn't get enough of reading about. You just absorbed everything you could about them. And this is that case for me. It was one of those cases that I could not stop reading about. So that's why this is going to be a very long and very involved case, or three cases probably, because I just couldn't leave. There was so much about them. There's so much about the cases.

Starting point is 00:02:25 Is there so much that happened after the murders? Yeah. There's just so much that we can't just give you like this quick little like boop about it because it just will not do. It will not do. The victim's justice, really. So you're going to get all the information. Do we want to bring back something that people have missed a lot for these three episodes?

Starting point is 00:02:45 Ooh. I think if Annie's willing, she's over there. What do you think about a couple pallet cleansers, Ann? Yeah. All right, got one together. All right. We'll have a pallet cleanser for this episode. Yes. Which we might use it pretty early on the episode because I think most of this one,

Starting point is 00:03:02 we're going to talk about Myra and Ian. We're going to talk about their lives. We're going to talk about how they got together and their relationship. Okay. But I'm going to start it off real bad. Okay. So we might need one right away. All right. Well, Annie, why don't, oh, so, well, the pallet cleanser is after the palate has been destroyed. Yeah. So Annie, shoot me a text when you're ready with your palette cleanser. Get it together right now. And Elena, you know what? what, just fucking hop right into this bizarre, horrible mess. All right, everybody. It's a dues.

Starting point is 00:03:31 Do you love that I just, like, assigned everybody. I was like, I'm the captain. That was great. I'm the captain now. That you delegated. That's what boss-ass bitches do. They delegate. While I was doing that, I also, like, shoved some of my sparkly eyeshadow.

Starting point is 00:03:44 That was in the corner of my eye. I saw that. Into the inside of my eye. And now you're just digging on in there. She's having a moment. She's having a moment. It's okay. Don't worry about me.

Starting point is 00:03:52 Go on, you know what? You might as well make yourself cry right now, because you're about to. So, I mean, this case in the UK is infamous. To this day, it is that case. They all hear about, I'm sure all our UK listeners are like, yep, yep, know this one. Everybody knows this case. It's intense.

Starting point is 00:04:10 I know of the case, but I don't. I'm going to find out a lot. That's just so much. I'm right here with you. Just in case anybody wants to check out what I read for part one and actually part two and three as well, but I'm probably going to add some more things on to the citation list for that one. But so far, what I've been reading and what I got this information from are the books, Ian Brady, The Untold Story of the Moores Murers Murders by Dr. Allen Knightley.

Starting point is 00:04:40 That one's a really good book. It is told kind of in Ian's words at times. It's because Dr. Allen Knightley spoke often with Ian Brady and actually, like had a full-blown communication with him for a long period of time. Ian Brady actually left him things in his will. So it's a really firsthand account. He kind of dispels a lot of rumors, but he does not like soften anything that Ian Brady did. He tells it like it is. He just gives kind of the facts from his point of view as well. I also read Depraved the Moore's Murders. That's by C.G.C. Cook. And I also read Evil Relations. The

Starting point is 00:05:24 man who bore witness against the Moores murders by David Smith with Carol Ann Lee. That is actually written with the help of a witness to the last murder. So that's a crazy one. I fully recommend it. And we're going to talk more about that one probably in part two. But the last one I read, and it kind of infuriated me, but I suppose it's kind of interesting to read. And I think it's not a bad one to at least have another perspective. It's called the Mollest. of Myra Hinley. And it's by Nina Wilde, who was said to be her lover later in life when she was in prison. So it's definitely got another vibe to it. And I think it's told a little way more fluffier than it should be. It definitely, like I said, the Alan Knightley one is very straightforward,

Starting point is 00:06:15 very, like unbiased, just with more firsthand account from Ian. But the Nina Wilde one seems very biased and very much saying that Myra was totally manipulated by Ian and she had nothing to do with it. But I really recommend all four of these books just to get some different information to compare and contrast. And I will definitely be adding to that list in the next couple of parts. But start with those and I will link them in the show notes. It happened between 1963 and 1965. That's when the murders occurred at least. Mainly, this revolves around saddle. Worth Moors, which is what? It is, it's, moors are just like vast lands.

Starting point is 00:07:02 Like, it's like fields. Yeah, like think like Wuthering Heights. Okay. Like, it's just like, it's like open planes and it's just like this massive amount of land. Okay. I mean, there's like rocky portions, this marsh portion. It's just a lot of land. Okay.

Starting point is 00:07:18 They're beautiful. Moors are beautiful, but these are very tainted. Okay. The killings took place sometimes in the Moors, and also the bodies would be buried on the Moors. Okay. So these are located in West Yorkshire, and they became, which later I think West Yorkshire became Manchester later, or like part of it did. Any Manchester United fans out there? You know, shout out to my stepmom.

Starting point is 00:07:44 There you go. Glory, glory. That's the song. I was like, what's happening right now? But any of our UK listeners who can, you know, probably tell us better about that, I just read like a quick little thing that said like part of it's now Manchester and whatever. I just wanted to put it out there. So before we get into speaking about these two absolute blights on the human. These kindred spirit. Yeah. I mean, I want to give you a quick glimpse into what they did because

Starting point is 00:08:12 at times you might feel tempted to feel for them or relate to them. Now remember, we feel. We feel bad for the child to them. We don't feel bad for what they did later. Well, because we're going to talk about their childhoods. We're going to talk about their relationship. It has a tendency sometimes to humanize these people. So I really want to dehumanize them right off the jump so that nobody has, nobody ends up being like, oh, gross. I felt bad for them for a minute. Yeah. I'm going to help you out with that. You're welcome. I'm just thinking about you guys. You're welcome in advance. Exactly. So Ian in particular can be very easily perceived as like charming, intelligent. worldly. He also looks like one of your ex-boyfriends, which you posted on Twitter. But if you don't

Starting point is 00:08:54 have a Twitter, now you know that. It's pretty upsetting. I was like, why does he look so familiar? A high school boyfriend. And then you look at that mugshot and I was like, oh. I tweeted at you and I was like, well, fuck. You're like, oh shit. I was like, I need that image out of my head. He really does. It's upsetting. Sorry. Well, so he can be seen as like charming, intelligent, all that good stuff. But that also came along with some of the most evil shit that I've ever heard of. And he's someone who took what he wanted, when he wanted it, and he just left chaos everywhere he went. And he did that for basically his entire life.

Starting point is 00:09:26 He was a career thief. What is a career thief? He like burglarized houses his entire, like, his entire life. What's a career thief? I was like, what? Like he started when he was much younger. And he did it basically as a second career. Like he made money out of it.

Starting point is 00:09:41 He lived with it. I thought he was stealing people's jobs. No, he did do that. Wow. A criminal. So many people are going, oh, ash. I love when they say that. He was very overly satisfied with himself to the level of such extreme narcissism that it'll make your ears bleed to hear his quotations.

Starting point is 00:10:00 Oh, God. Dude thinks he is just it. The bees knees. The smartest. But he had a pretty happy childhood, albeit unconventional, but he had a pretty happy childhood. So I'm not going to feel bad for him. You're not. You might feel bad for Myra. Whatever.

Starting point is 00:10:17 But you're not after this. Don't worry about that. But Myra's childhood was tough. She was, I mean, she was up until the bitter end, ugly as fucking sin. She's not cute. She was, and I don't feel bad saying that because she's a literal scum on the edge of the earth. You can say whatever you want. And she was obsessed with Ian to the point of almost making you want to feel pity for her.

Starting point is 00:10:40 Oh. Because she was into him in a very obsessive. of like preteen, like swooning over him kind of way. Gotcha. And as we'll see later, that was not, it was not reciprocated at first. Like it was like the poster on your bedroom mall that you like kiss before you go to bed. Exactly. And, you know, eventually it changes. But at first you could see that and be, and we'll go into like her diary entries and such about it. So you could be like, oh, Myra. But just remember, she's a shit stain. It's always great when they find a diary. Yeah, exactly. So all of this could make you feel bad for her at point.

Starting point is 00:11:14 I'm sure, you know, again, feel bad for young Myra with the abusive alcoholic father. Yeah. Definitely feel bad for that. But she made a choice to be an evil son of a bitch as an adult, and that's solely on her. Exactly. Not only did she make a choice, but she embraced that despicable side of herself and deserves to be admonished just as much as Ian Brady does. So let's get it. Well, Myra in particular gets a lot of sympathizers.

Starting point is 00:11:42 Still. Do you think it's because she's a woman? For sure. Well, and people see her as someone who went bad purely because of Ian Brady and her need to please him. In my opinion, that doesn't happen. You know, it's just very, very rarely does that happen. When it comes to crimes as severe as this one, right, you got it in you. If you're doing it. Again, I feel like I'm really focusing on this person. But Carla Hamoka, like people wanted to be like, well, Paul Bernardo made her do it. And it's like she wanted to do that. People that are capable of doing things like this, it's in them or it's not. Exactly. Well, and that's the thing.

Starting point is 00:12:16 None of the investigators who worked on this case think Myra was anything other than an equal part of a truly evil whole. They were like, she was an equal opportunity fuck up in this whole thing. It was not him manipulating her into it. She wanted to do it. It's like somehow these two fucked up people found each other. Exactly. And there's audio of some of these crimes.

Starting point is 00:12:37 And Myra can be heard participating in. being supremely cruel and abusive to these children. Oh, no. She is just as evil as Ian, and her attempt to be seen later as a battered and manipulated woman is maddening. Like, maddening. And it's so fucking false. It's false. Obviously, those tapes are not released.

Starting point is 00:12:59 And we're not going to read the transcripts. Oh, absolutely not. I don't even think there is transcripts, to be honest. They're horrific. But just hearing what is on those tapes from the investigators. She was very much an equal participant in this. And for her to later say, which she will talk about later, her to later say, you know, I was, at one point she said she was running a bath during the whole thing. So she wasn't paying attention.

Starting point is 00:13:23 Or she was looking out the window. That would be supremely evil in and of itself. And it's like, no, we can hear you on the tape. Like, you're participating in it. But thank you. Go try though. Thank you for that. It just makes me want to scream.

Starting point is 00:13:33 And they're both abhorrent. But Myra's need to be seen as a victim just makes me hate her on such a separate level. not more, just on a separate level. Because when somebody is, like you said, so evil at a willing participant, and then later when they're caught, they're like, oh no, they want sympathy. I didn't mean to do this. It's like, shut. She wants sympathy. Well, we're going to get into the crimes in detail in part two. That's going to be a very rough episode. Great. And we're going to talk about their interviews from prison and how they turned on each other, maybe in part three. But this sneak peek is just so you can remember right from the jump that they are not a sad story. And we're not a sad story.

Starting point is 00:14:10 of people led astray. They are irredeemable, hateful, depraved affliction on the very fabric of humanity. The way she writes, everybody. That is who they are. This bitch. So everybody just keep that in mind for the whole thing. That is who they are. They are terrible. Just put that in your noggin' bag. Just hold on to that. They had five victims between 63 and 65. They were Edward Evans, who was 17 years old. Oh, my God. Keith Bennett, who was 12 years old. Pauline Reed, who was 16 years old.

Starting point is 00:14:52 John Kilbride, who was 12 years old. And Leslie Ann Downey, who was 10 years old. 10 years old. So young, young children across the board. And Leslie Ann Downey is the example I'm going to give you a brief glimpse at before moving on to Ian and Myra's lives and their relationship with each other. I chose Leslie to drive my point home with not because her death is in some way. you know, more important than Edward, Keith, Pauline, or Johns.

Starting point is 00:15:18 Yeah, not that. It's just because there's tangible evidence to show the evil of Ian and Myra that I think will keep everyone in the correct mindset while we talk about their lives. Okay. So they kidnapped, tortured, sexually assaulted, filmed, recorded, and then murdered Leslie and Downey in their home. Wow. The audio of her pleas and cries to go home is 16 minutes long.

Starting point is 00:15:41 At one point, possibly the most heart-wrenching, part of the audio. And let me take a deep breath before I mention this part. This is going to be rough, guys, so just get ready. Okay. It's just one sentence, but it's enough. She says to Ian, don't undress me, will you? I want to see Mummy.

Starting point is 00:15:59 Oh, no. All while the sound of the Christmas song, Little Drummer Boy is playing in the background, looped. Shut the fuck up. That's, like, that's beyond sickening. Like, even just saying it, my heart just, dropped into my toes. Now, is that something they did on purpose, put on Christmas music on loop? Well, actually, she was abducted the day before Christmas Eve. Oh, wow. But did they put it on loop to be like a scary thing? Probably. I think they just put it on just to make it more of a chaotic

Starting point is 00:16:28 situation for her. Like, we always say. Both of them had a lot of fun. Oh, God. On that audio, both of them are fully into it. So, and Myra tries to say later that like, no, I was, I was not part of that. And meanwhile, the investigators are like, oh, no, she was very, in fact, she was cruel on that tape. Oh, no. So the former police chief, John Stocker, he passed away in 2019. But he worked on this case, and he listened to that 16-minute recording, as did all the investigators. That will change you. He had a lot to say about the effects that this case had on everyone who worked on it. And he said, whenever he heard the little drummer boy during Christmas after, he said he would have like a physical, visceral reaction to it. I can't even imagine. You must. Yeah. And he said, quote, nothing in criminal

Starting point is 00:17:16 behavior has penetrated my heart with quite the same paralyzing intensity. It's an innocent children's Christmas song, but a chill goes down my spine every time I hear the little drummer boy because it reminds me of Myra Hindley. Oh, and for him to just say Myra Hindley, that's interesting. She was a big part of that tape. And he also said, quote, the song brings back terrible memories of having to listen to a tape of Hindley and her accomplice, Ian Brady, torturing a terrified little Leslie and Downey with that music playing in the background. He said, quote, I first heard the tape when I was a detective sergeant in Manchester investigating the Moore's murders. When the 16-minute tape was played at the police station before the trial, I saw senior detectives and legendary

Starting point is 00:17:58 crime reporters, hard men who had been through the war and seen terrible things dissolve into tears. anybody unfortunate enough to have to listen to her harrowing last desperate moments could not fail to conclude that Hindley was evil and an equal partner with Brady in the crimes. So he's like, fuck off. Anybody who listen to that tape will tell you she is right there with him. Right. So to me, the I Want Mummy thing is like, that will destroy you. That's just, I mean, I can't. Her parents had to listen to that tape to identify their daughter's voice.

Starting point is 00:18:35 Are you serious? Yep. These two demons created a world where Anne West, Leslie's mother, had to hear her baby pleading for her on tape. That is so beyond any kind of redemption. Like, it's unable to be even articulated properly. No. Like, I can't even find the words. Rarely can I not find the words.

Starting point is 00:18:55 I cannot find the words. That's new for you. Like I, and I think it's like the mummy thing. Like for some reason, and I say it all the time, cases like this really get me. Well, yeah, you change when you have children. But it's also like, you think of like the George Floyd case. He called out for his mother. When you said it, that's exactly what I thought of.

Starting point is 00:19:12 It's if you look into that, like you and I have talked about it, a lot of people's last, one of their last words are like, I want my mom or like mommy or something like that. And it's like, I, that part of that case too was just like, oh my God. And you're just, I mean, this is this is me. I'm not speaking for all mothers. most mothers who care about their children feel this way, but I don't want to speak for everybody. And I feel like maybe I'm like a little crazier at times because like I tried really hard to have my kids and like it took us a long time. Yeah. So I feel like very overprotective, possibly like to

Starting point is 00:19:43 have a fault. Like moderately helicopter. Yeah, like moderately crazy. No. But I feel like even when my kids will say like, you know, when I'm like, you know, that was naughty what you just did and I'm, you know, no snack after lunch. Yeah. When one of them will go like, okay, mama. I am. Immediately, I'm like, that was mean. You couldn't have a snatch. Like, I'm like, you know what I mean? I don't know what it is. It's like the word mama or mummy or mom when you're a mother.

Starting point is 00:20:08 Yeah. To me, I have such like a sense of duty. No, I get that. When that word is like thrown at me. Yeah. So when one of my kids says that, I just feel like I need to immediately be there. I'm like, what? What?

Starting point is 00:20:18 What? Well, even when you just like give a kid a punishment, like you saying that, like, I remember babysitting like I'm the oldest in the family. So I babysat like all the grandkids. And like, giving them like a punishment. like being like no snack after lunch or like go sit on the stairs, you see something in their face and it hurts you. It does.

Starting point is 00:20:36 Even though you're like, you know what, never mind. Like, never mind. Exactly. It's hard. You can't do it. It's so hard. So for this poor little baby and we're going to post a photo of like the victims, obviously. And Leslie and Downey is like a baby.

Starting point is 00:20:50 And she's this beautiful little girl. And it's two days before Christmas. And for these two demons to hear her say, I want my mummy and to have nothing. but contempt for. Where did they abduct her from? They abducted her from a fairground. Like a carnival? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:06 And we're going to go into the detail of the whole thing in part two. Yeah. But, and again, as if, you know, this wouldn't just be enough to make you want to like launch this planet into the sun because two people like this exist on it. Myra doubled down. And said, no. So in 1987, after she had admitted to her role in the murders, she wrote a fucking letter to Leslie Ann Downey's mother.

Starting point is 00:21:30 Are you kidding me? And she acted like she deserved to be pitied. How was that even allowed? If I was the fucking postman or like the guy that took care of the shit at jail, I would have lost that letter. Well, it's unbelievable. How was that even allowed? She wrote to this woman acting like she was the victim. So one of the quotes is, I know almost everyone describes me as cold and calculating.

Starting point is 00:21:55 You are, bitch. But I ask you to believe that I find all. of this deeply upsetting. Do you? No, you find it upsetting because you're in jail now. That's what you find upsetting. Myra. No one gives a shit that you are upset about being called evil. You shit-brained, busted-faced, whiny little twat. Are you kidding me? Right. You're talking to a woman whose daughter, you brutally assaulted and murdered and filmed it. And you're asking her to please believe in you? And you're saying, I'm so sad that people are calling me evil. Fuck right off. She's so sad that. She's so sad that the evil woman who's writing to her murdered her daughter. Oh, it gets worse. So then she lies,

Starting point is 00:22:34 knowing that Anne has heard the fucking tape of her child being tortured and murdered, she knew that she heard that. And she said, quote, please believe me, not for my sake, but simply in the hope that it will give you even a little peace of mind. Because that's what I want to do. That however monstrous and unforgivable the crime was, your child was not tortured to death. No, she was. Also, that doesn't help. you disgusting vermin. Like, that's proof right there to me that she doesn't understand human empathy or human emotion.

Starting point is 00:23:06 Right. She can't see that it does absolutely nothing. To reassure a mother that although you violently abducted, filmed, recorded, and murdered her 12-year-old baby girl that you didn't torture her to death. Right. Like, what? Like, you can't understand, like, why she wouldn't give a shit what you are saying right now? That's like when Mel addressed the family at Brenda Sue Schaefer's case, when he finally

Starting point is 00:23:29 admitted that he did it and was like, I raped, I tortured, I took photos, I did all this, but she died peacefully. No, she did a shit. No one gives a shit. And that's not true. You're a liar. And that's why you can see that these kind of people are such a different kind of person. They don't understand how like our human brains work.

Starting point is 00:23:47 They do not understand basic human empathy or emotion. It's mind-boggling. She started a scam against them in the letter that they didn't fall for. And that was caught a year or so later. So she says in the letter, I have written to the home office and the parole board to say I do not wish to be considered for parole. And my own belief is that I shall probably remain in prison until I die. So that sounds nice, right? Yeah, sit there, have a great time.

Starting point is 00:24:13 You understand that you shouldn't get parole. That's real nice, Myra. So she claims she isn't going to go for parole because she's such a good person now and wants to serve her sentence and never be released. So nice, Myra. Well, it turns out that was a ploy that she was manipulative. She didn't want them to show up to the parole hearing, right? Well, she was trying to get Leslie Ann Downey's family to stop campaigning against her possible parole and blocking it. Because within a couple of years, she petitioned for parole again and was denied in 1994.

Starting point is 00:24:43 Right. Anne West continuously petitioned for the government to stop Myra from ever being released until she died in 1999. Wow. R.P. I know. Anne. But her husband, Alan, continued until Myra died in 2012. Or 2002, I'm sorry. But so she was literally trying to trick them.

Starting point is 00:25:02 Trying to manipulate this poor woman whose daughter, she brutally murdered, into dropping her campaign against her getting out of parole so that she could go for parole and not have her blocking it. What a sick twist. Like, she's a sick fuck. They both, I mean, Ian is just as sick of fuck as we will see. but Myra just, she really tried till the very end to play that victim card. I just, it's crazy to me.

Starting point is 00:25:27 I didn't even realize that victims or families could be contacted by the murderer in jail. Yeah, it was unbelievable. There should be some, like, you know how murderers can't, like, people in jail can't write. Like, she couldn't write to Ian. Yeah. There should be another thing where you can't write to the fucking family. Well, actually, her and Ian did communicate at one point. Did they?

Starting point is 00:25:45 And there's always loopholes. John Kilbride's brother also was, contacted Myra. They spoke through letters. Yeah. So let's start with Myra. Okay. I took a trip to L.A. and I was on Hollywood Boulevard and there is someone getting a star on the Walk of Fame and it was Mr. 305. Pitbull himself. Myra Hindley is called the Most Evil Woman in Bray. written. I believe that. She was born July 23rd, 1942 in Manchester. She was born to Nellie and

Starting point is 00:26:32 Robert Bob. I love the name Nellie. Her father, Robert, fought in World War II. So he wasn't actually around for her birth and he wasn't around until she was like three or four years old. She was raised mainly by her mother Nellie and her grandmother, Ellen. Okay. Now, while the father was away, they lived with Ellen, who she called Grand. Okay. She loved Grand. According to everything, Grand is a great human being who spoiled her endlessly. Grand sounds like a gem. Yeah, she got along with Gran really well. When her father got home from war, they moved into, so they had moved in with Grant

Starting point is 00:27:05 while he was gone, but then they moved out when the father came back from war. They moved into a house that was like really close to Grant's house, so the whole family was on like one little neighborhood. They had another daughter, Maureen on August 21st, 1946. Maureen and Myra became like best friends. Okay. And they remained best friends for a long time. So this all sounds great so far.

Starting point is 00:27:25 He had, so Robert Hindley had a tough time adjusting when he came back. PTSD probably. He had become an alcoholic. He was very abusive. Who knows if PTSD was involved because it's not like World War II was a great time. So when he got back, there was suddenly lots of fighting between the parents. And when this happened, Myra would walk with her sister Maureen down to her grandparents' house. And eventually, they actually ended up.

Starting point is 00:27:51 moving in with their grandparents, or their grandmother. Sure. Because Grand was like, you know what? This isn't an environment for children. We really don't want you growing up with this violence. And I'm happy to take you. And, you know, that's fine. Grants are the best.

Starting point is 00:28:05 She later said, any good in me comes from Graham. Wow. Yeah. So they worked it out as a family where she was going to sleep at Grand's house or they both were going to sleep at Grand's house. But her dad really wanted to make sure that they spent days with their parents and they had meals with their parents. Okay. So it seemed like everybody was pretty cool with this scenario. I get fucked up and start yelling at your mom. Let's have fish and chips for lunch. I think that's what it was. I think it was like

Starting point is 00:28:32 probably as it usually happens because we'll find out he went to pubs at night where he would get soused and then come home and it was usually pandemonium. I know what that's like. So that sounds like my entire childhood. I think it was like before he would go to the pub, things were okay. The longhorn. He was kind of a tough guy, but like, I don't think it was as bad during the day. Well, some people are like so different. It's like you can be this amazing person during the day. Yeah. Amazing dad. And then at night, you get soused and you're a different dude.

Starting point is 00:29:03 Well, Myra was a tough chick. She was a tough chick her whole life. Sounds like she kind of had to be in the beginning. She definitely did what she did. She was taught violence pretty early on, obviously. And her father encouraged his daughters to stand up for themselves, which is good. Sure. But he encouraged it with violence.

Starting point is 00:29:19 Like, you would be like, you should punch people if they make you mad. You shouldn't do that. He was a championship boxer in the military. And he literally took Myra outside in the backyard and, like, taught her how to punch correctly. All right. Which is not, like, a total bad thing to teach your kid, like, how to offend themselves. But, like, he encouraged it to, like, solve problems. And that's not good.

Starting point is 00:29:38 It's not how we solve problems. So, like, when she was eight years old, a boy, you know, she was known, like, you don't mess with Myra. Like, she'll fuck you up. Forever for her whole life. Literally, she will fuck you up forever. And when she was eight, a boy was like bullying her, and he ended up reaching out and scratching her face. And she told her father this when she went home. She was like, what the hell is this about?

Starting point is 00:29:59 He scratched my face. And her father was like, go find that kid and punch him in the face. And so she was like, all right. So she went and knocked this kid out. I can't argue that. Yeah. If somebody else throws a punch, first punch, have it. I mean, he scratched you.

Starting point is 00:30:14 Yeah, as far as I'm concerned. But here's the problem. So she went and punched this kid. And she fought him into a bovoolevi. And she's like, dad, I did it. And he was like, I am so proud of you. So she realized that. And suddenly she got this approval and he's giving her a hug and being like, that's my girl.

Starting point is 00:30:31 So now she's going to beat people up to get love and attention at home. So now she's learning that violence is going to lead to approval. Which maybe later happened in her relationship. Not between the two of them. Yeah. But yeah. So Myra, we have to remember, is a lying sack of. dog shit, just to be clear.

Starting point is 00:30:51 She said about a hundred different stories regarding the abuse she either suffered or didn't suffer when she was younger. She at various points that said her father only abused her a couple times, that she was only hit when she was punished, that he beat

Starting point is 00:31:07 her and her sister regularly, that he would knock them unconscious for nothing at all. It's a big leap. That he would abuse them so badly that they would almost die. Then she would say her mother sometimes abused them too. but then other times she would say she never even spanked us. She's just, she's a lying sex shit.

Starting point is 00:31:24 She sounds real confused. She manipulates to get whatever reaction she's looking for at that given time. That minute. Yeah, that minute, you need me to say that he abused me so badly that I almost died. Well, there it is. That's the story. So we really don't know because what we do know is later in life, he disowned her when he found out what she did.

Starting point is 00:31:42 So he was horrified. Wow. Well, a good, duh. So she also said that every night her father, like I said, would go to the pub, get drunk, he would fight because he was a championship boxer, so he had that in him and he was like, he would pull it out when he would get mad at the pub, and then he'd come home and fight with her mother. And she said some... Yeah. And then she said, sometimes Myra was sent back to the pub to gather his jacket that he would often take off when he would fight people at the bar.

Starting point is 00:32:10 Yeah. And she said, quote, I never sought to blame him for anything I did when I was older. It devastated him that his daughter could possibly have done the things I did. And he said, and he disowned me, but he was far from being a good role model, which of course, not everybody has good role models. But to me, it's Myra being like, no, I don't blame him, but listen what he did. But he did do this. So it's like you are trying to blame. You're trying to subconsciously plant it in everyone's mind that it's probably his fault.

Starting point is 00:32:37 And it's like, you know what? Plenty of people have that growing up and they don't do the things that you did. And she wrote an article in The Guardian in 1995 about this stuff. And she said the violence she saw definitely made her learn about dominance and control, which she later brought into her own relationship and her crimes. Either way, through all this, she did really well in school. She was happy in school. She was apparently like a brilliant writer.

Starting point is 00:33:04 Okay. Apparently one of her essays was so good that they like displayed it in the school, which I'm sure. Probably because she's good at lying in fantasy. So she typically, you can write about those things. Well, she also read a ton and her favorite book was The Secret Garden, which I was. like, oh no, we've all read that. Thanks for ruining that. That's a bummer. When she was a teenager, she and her girlfriend babysat a lot around town, which is horrifying to think about now. Yeah, no, thank you. She was known to be a great babysitter who was wonderful with kids. That's like Marian.

Starting point is 00:33:33 Sure, she was a babysitter. Yep. And she apparently loved kids when she was younger, like so much, but took pride later in saying that she did not want to be a mother and that kid sucked when she got older. It's fine if you don't want to be a mom, but kids don't suck. Well, and it's weird that you were like so into them. And then you're just like, nah, completely were like, never mind. But when she was 15 years old, this was kind of like a big thing that happened in her life. When she was 15 years old, she saw a 13 year old boy being bullied. And because she would stand up for herself, she felt it was, because again, at this point, she loved kids. So at this point, when she would see a kid being bullied, she stood up for them. Like, she was not a bully. She stood up to bully. She stood up to

Starting point is 00:34:16 bullies for everybody. This is so weird. Isn't it so weird? So she saw this 13 year old boy being bullied. She stands up for him, fights the bully and is like, get the fuck out of here. Good. Eventually, these two, her and the kid that was bullied, become best friends. I love that. And his name was Michael Higgins. And they were together all the time. And they were only two years apart, so it wasn't crazy. But one day he asked her to hang out by this old, like, reservoir. Yeah, they used to hang out there a lot. Romance. And she had made another plan. So she was like, no, I can't come. Well, later, she heard all this commotion was happening by the reservoir. Oh, no.

Starting point is 00:34:51 She ran to the reservoir, and she sees that they are pulling Michael Higgins out of the reservoir, and he had drowned. Oh, no. And so she feels extreme guilt for that, because she said up until the end, if I was there, I could have helped him. Right. It's survivor's guilt. It is. It totally is. So she left school at 15 years old to start her life.

Starting point is 00:35:13 This wasn't uncommon at this point. Because you said it's like, it's before the 60s even. Yeah. So this was just, you know, she's a girl. She's so at this time of life, she's a girl, she's going to leave school. She's going to learn how to type. Yeah, she's going to learn how to type. She's going to marry a man and she's going to pop out some kids.

Starting point is 00:35:30 That's her life. Let's get it. So Myra at the time wanted that and was ready for that. She was like, all right, let's leave school. Let's start this whole shebang going. Fam Damily. Well, she also got super into religion at this point, which L-O-L for Myra being in. religion. I'm like, really? Really? In 1958, she started taking classes in the Catholic

Starting point is 00:35:51 faith at a monastery, a monastery of St. Francis, I believe it's called. She had her first communion that same year, so she was like really committed to it. Her family was super happy about this. They gave her this white prayer book that was inscribed in shit. And that was later taken into evidence when she abducted and murdered children with her shithead existentialist wannabe. boyfriend. So they took in her prayer book as evidence against her. We'll talk about it. So then she starts, so she's super religious now. She's, she's dressing modestly. She's got a set of morals for herself. She's decided that she is not going to have premarital sex. She's a virgin at this point. So she's like, I am not, I'm saving myself for marriage. That's her thing. So she started working at a car sales place

Starting point is 00:36:40 as like a temp clerk kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, who really gives a shit what she was doing there. I don't really couldn't give a fucklux. But everything was going fine. People there thought she was fine. Then one day she gets her paycheck and they used to give the paychecks in cash. Oh, what a dream. She left or bad. She left and she comes running back crying and saying she lost the envelope on the way home.

Starting point is 00:37:02 I don't believe you. Well, all of her coworkers, they felt really bad for her. And they were like, oh, that's awful. You just lost like a whole weeks of pay. Like, that just sucks. So they all pooled their own money together to give her her paycheck. back. This lying sack of shit her money back. Yeah. So they're like, oh, that was really sad for her. And then a couple of weeks later, the exact same thing happens. Oh, isn't it so sad how like some people, it's always

Starting point is 00:37:26 them? Just accidents happen. You know what I mean? So the coworkers didn't believe that shit. No, they were like, you got our money last week. As soon as it happened the first time, they were like, eh, no, that doesn't happen. So they were like, no. So they start being very weary of her. Because all of a sudden, And she's like trying to con them out of their own paychecks. And she's like, no, thank you. Now this probably, I mean, helped her practice for conning the grieving mother of a child she tortured to death. Probably. I would have campaigning for her to stay in prison forever.

Starting point is 00:37:55 So good for her for, you know, practicing. Con woman of the century. Yeah. Practice your craft. Exactly. So then in her late teens, she suddenly decided, you know, I want to change. Again. I want to change my look.

Starting point is 00:38:08 She was like, I'm getting a little bored of my look. She used to have dark hair. Like I said, she was ugliest sin. Not cute. Nothing helped her. She was right till the end. Sorry. I was going to say, not sorry.

Starting point is 00:38:19 I know that she lightened her hair, but it doesn't always do a lot for people. If anything, it just drew attention to that mug of hers. Sometimes it makes it worse. Kind of did. Bleaching your hair is not always necessary. Yeah, because this is what she did. She dyed her hair platinum blonde for the first time. We're not all meant to be platinum, Myra.

Starting point is 00:38:36 No. Just me. And she started wearing heavier makeup. She really went with eye makeup, like heavy-lined eyes. Because again, this is like, you know, the 60s. Somebody on Twitter said that she looked like a drag queen, and I was like, how dare you drag drag queens like that? Well, I think my response was she wishes.

Starting point is 00:38:53 Yeah. She does wish because drag queens are way more beautiful. Yeah, no, this girl was not. But so she's wearing more makeup, and, you know, she's wearing her hair in that big poofy buffoon. Yeah. Like 60s hairstyle. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:07 And her sister, Maureen, who was the younger sister, remember, started doing the exact same thing. She didn't dye her hair blonde. She kept it dark, but she was doing the eye makeup. They look very similar in pictures, just one is black hair, one is blonde hair. Sorry, Maureen. Which it's sad, because you're like, she obviously looked up to her and they were so close. Yeah, that is sad. I'd be like, if you just became a crazy murderer. Exactly. And you'd be like, that's a bummer. I'd be real weird. I'd be like, who am I going to do this podcast with? That'd be real weird. Well, she started getting a little attention from men. Oh. You know, so she was like, because honestly, platinum blonde. Sometimes it doesn't matter what's under it. It's just a platinum blonde.

Starting point is 00:39:44 A lot of people are very, like, just immediately attracted to that hair color because it's like bold and right. And whoa, you know, and especially at that time in the 60, you're not seeing a ton of platinum blondes walking around, like peroxide blondes. So all of a sudden men are like paying attention. And she's like, hey, oh, so she's liking this. She's like, on my rug. Give me your paycheck. What's up on my robe? I'm going to murder people later. But she's now, remember, She's newly religious. So although she's liking this attention, she's still trying to be very modest. And she doesn't want it.

Starting point is 00:40:14 Modest with her platinum blonde hair. So she's trying to like get the attention, but she doesn't really want it. Which I'm like, anybody else, I'd be like get it. But it's a fun game, Myra. So when she was around 17 years old, she was reintroduced to a guy who she had gone to school with. She had known for most of her life. But she hadn't seen him in a while. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:32 His name was Ronnie Sinclair. And they started dating and everything was fine. She later described him as like boring and kind of reminding her of her father in the way that, not in like the abusive way, but in the way that he was very working class. And like she said he always had grease under his finger nails. How horrible. Yeah, Myra and Ian have a very, such god complexes. Like they both think that they are higher than everybody. And she said he used to have grease under his fingernails and it reminded her of her father like this working guy.

Starting point is 00:41:02 That just means he's earning his paycheck. But he wasn't a bad guy. Like he wasn't abusive. He wasn't, he was just a nice guy. He just worked. Exactly. And they started dating and when she turned 18, he proposed. Cute.

Starting point is 00:41:13 And she was very excited about this at first, like super psyched. And she told her parents and her dad was psyched. But her mom was like, I'm not psyched. And she was like, this is your first boyfriend. Yeah, you need to get out and see the world. You shouldn't marry your first boyfriend, which I'm like, good for Nelly. That's good advice. You know, because she could have just saddled her down and been like, this is your life now, deal with it.

Starting point is 00:41:36 Right. But then you look back and you're like, maybe you should have married Ronnie. Yeah. Because maybe, I don't know, would all this have happened if somebody didn't like go along with you to do it? I don't know. So she's not psyched about it. So suddenly she's listening. She's like, all right, mom, whatever. And then all of a sudden she's like, you know what? You're kind of right. And she starts seeing things that are annoying her about him. And she's looking around saying, I don't want this life. I don't want to be saddled with anybody. So this is already starting the wheels turning. Now, December 1960, she switched jobs.

Starting point is 00:42:08 She's not at the car place anymore. She switched a couple of times to different jobs as like a typist, but she never really stuck any for long. I told you she had to learn how to type. She was a typist. And she ended up getting a job as a typist slash secretary at Millward's merchandising. Okay. This is where she met Ian Brady.

Starting point is 00:42:27 Ian Footface Brady. She said it was love at first sight. Doubt it. Wasn't it not? Oh, I think it was love at first sight. for her. Oh, no, she's saying for her. Oh, okay. She rightly admits he did not pay attention to her at all. I love that. Now, she referred to it later as, quote, an instant fatal attraction. Oh. And he was not interested in her at all at first. He completely ignored her and she was obsessed.

Starting point is 00:42:51 And I feel like people like Myra too, like being ignored makes you want it even more. And I think it was also having to do with her newly blonde hair and the way she was doing all her stuff to like all the makeup and everything. That smoky eye. She was getting a little attention. So the fact that he wasn't part of that attention, she was like, why isn't he turning and looking at me kind of thing? I think that was what it was. I have these abilities with my icy blonde hair. She's like, I have peroxide hair now. She's like, you know how much my fucking scalp berm to do this?

Starting point is 00:43:17 She's like, everyone loves peroxide hair. That's true. He actually says later he did not like her peroxide hair. Oh, really? Yeah. And I'll discuss it more later. But to me, he saw her as his equal later in their desire to cause chaos. And he saw her as someone who was as ruthless as he was and someone who he could be very confident around because she worshipped him so much.

Starting point is 00:43:42 Yeah. So it was never a matter of attraction physically. I think she was very attracted to him, but I do not think he was attracted to her at any point. I just don't. I mean, who knows? He's never said he was. So he's very cold when it comes to talking about him. That would lead you to believe that he was not.

Starting point is 00:44:01 Yeah. I don't know. So Ian Brady. He is known as the most hated man in Britain. They have good nicknames. Yeah, they have good nicknames. She's the most evil woman. He's the most hated man.

Starting point is 00:44:12 Oh, okay. He was born January 2nd, 1938. He's a Capricorn. We love a Capricorn. She's a Leo in case you were wondering. And he's a Capricorn, and that makes me sad. He was born in Glasgow, Scotland. Okay.

Starting point is 00:44:27 And his mother was 19-year-old Maggie Peggy Stewart. Mm-hmm. And he was born in Rotten Roe. maternity hospital. That makes a lot of sense. Which I was like, wow. Sorry if you were born there. That's quite a name, I will say. He was actually initially named Ian Duncan Stewart because her last name was Stewart. Okay. So his father was not present. He possibly died a few months before his birth. That's what he was told. Uh-huh. That's what I found in a lot of sources. But then he later said that he didn't think he died and that he was led to believe that maybe he just left.

Starting point is 00:45:03 And like didn't, but his mom didn't want him to know that. That's nice. His mom was a good mom. Oh. She struggled. But to me, she was 19. She cared about him and tried to do the right thing with him. So what's her deal?

Starting point is 00:45:16 So what's her deal? So she was a waitress at a tea room. She was 19 years old. So she decided that she was trying, trying, trying to take care of him. But what was happening was she wanted to go back to work so she could make money to afford the room she was renting. But she needed somebody to take care of him. She couldn't afford somebody to take care of him. So she couldn't get a job.

Starting point is 00:45:38 She couldn't get the job. It was a bad cycle. It was a cycle of things. So then she does kind of a strange thing. She puts up this like advertisement at a local, in like a shop window. And it says that she'll pay someone one pound a week to look after Ian while she worked. Okay. And it was kind of literally anyone.

Starting point is 00:45:59 Well, no, it was kind of an unofficial adoption. basically. She wanted to be able to see him and she wanted to stay in his life, but she needed someone that could essentially take care of him. Okay, so like not like watch him like a babysitter. She was asking for someone to basically raise him. To openly adopt him. And she wanted to be, but she wanted to be part of this. So an open adoption. Yeah. And so she saw this as the only way that he was going to get like a real life. That's really sad. I mean, to make that decision. Yeah, I feel, it feel bad. And so this woman named Mary Sloan. and her husband John Sloan saw this, and they were like, we will take him.

Starting point is 00:46:36 Uh-huh. They had two daughters, Jean and May, and a son named Robert already. Ian was like four months old by this point. Okay. So at least he's not like old enough to remember. No. And he was, they were happy to take him. They were known as a warm and loving family.

Starting point is 00:46:51 Good, good, good. They were also not super. They were pretty poor themselves, but they took care of their kids. Right. And that's all that really mattered. She was like, as long as you can feed him and house him and give a love him, that's what I want. So he was told very early on that they were not his biological parents. Okay. And he was fine. And he called them Ma and Da. Ma and Da. Yeah. Shut up. I'm so Scottish. I love it.

Starting point is 00:47:13 And he said they were super nice to him. They loved him. They gave him everything he needed. He never felt neglected. Yeah. But he said he inherently felt like kind of an outsider because he knew he wasn't one of the siblings. But he still was very close with all of them. That's understandable. But he was a good kid. He had a lot of friends. Again, good home life. And he even says later that he was like, I was pretty spoiled for them being like as bad off as they were financially. He's like, we lived in like a two-bedroom house with like a bathroom outside. And he was like, but they literally spoiled me. Like I was the baby of the family. And his mother came all the time. She came every night and all weekend. Okay. So that's amazing. Yeah. And so she would bring him gifts. She would bring him clothes,

Starting point is 00:47:58 whatever she could afford to bring him, she would shower him with. So she cared about him. And these people were obviously great people to allow all this to happen. They're essentially taking another person into their home. Exactly. And he eventually was told that this woman was his mother. They were like, this is your real mother. He was like, cool, so I get to hang with her. So it's like a weird, almost like Ted Bundy Sitch. It's very weird. Except she was like his aunt for a minute. Except they were so honest with him. Like they were like, these are not your real parents. Here's your mother. This is the situation. Right. He was like, cool. It was like Ted Bundy done right. Everyone was happy and harmonious.

Starting point is 00:48:30 Everything was fine. He did great in school. He excelled in writing in English, just like Myra. Interesting. He says he didn't believe in God right from the jump. He immediately questioned religion and was an atheist. He was like right from the jump. In fact, he said at Sunday school, which they all went to, they would ask like, who believes in God?

Starting point is 00:48:50 And he would say, not me. Like he would immediately say it. And he had right from the get go. No reason for it. He just said, I just always felt that way. are going to get mad that I laughed at that. Oh, whatever. I'm like atheist agnostic, so.

Starting point is 00:49:05 I'm agnostic. I don't necessarily believe God, but I know like something's out there. Yeah, something's going on, and I don't know what. And everybody is entitled to their own place. Yeah, I have respect for her. I would never tell someone they can't believe in God or Jesus or whatever you want to believe in. Believe what you want to believe. I believed in Santa for a long time.

Starting point is 00:49:21 There you go. So, again, he was doing great. He ended up learning to play the piano. They taught him how to play the piano. He loved classical music from a young age. Psychopath. He read vorat. Hey, I like classical music.

Starting point is 00:49:42 I'm kidding. He read voraciously, which stuck with him for his whole life. He was a crazy reader. Yeah. And one big event in his early life that was pretty traumatizing, kind of like Myra, was when he was playing a game with his friends called Catch the Hudgee. What is a Hudgee? Well, the game was that these kids would wait for a passing van.

Starting point is 00:50:02 or like a truck or a car. I already hate this. They would jump onto the back of it and hold on to whatever they could hold on to on the back of it. And then they would just hold on as long as they couldn't jump off. That sounds so early 60s, like late 70s. This was actually like 50s. Okay, there it is. It sounds old. It does.

Starting point is 00:50:20 Well, one day they were playing this and a boy jumped on, but he slipped off prematurely, rolled under the wheels of a truck that was behind the van. And Ian said he didn't see anything but a brown. child's shoe filled to the brim with blood in the middle of the road. Oh. So that's kind of traumatizing, I'd say. That will change you. Yeah, that's no good.

Starting point is 00:50:42 And at one point, his birth mother, Maggie, met a man who wanted to move to Australia. So Maggie left? No. Ian said, so he was like, she was like, Ian, I would like you to come with us. And he was like, no, I don't want to leave the Sloans. Like, they're my family. And my friends are here. So his mother refused to leave him and just left the man.

Starting point is 00:51:02 Wow. Which I was like, Maggie. If that had only happened to me. Magic. Shit. Right? Shit. Like, that's good momming. That is good momming. Like, good for Maggie.

Starting point is 00:51:14 You don't just take your kid to Australia. Because I feel for Maggie. I do too. I do. She tried her best with him. She absolutely did. She couldn't do anything. He was who he was.

Starting point is 00:51:23 Yeah. Oh, fuck. That's the, holy shit. At the end of the she gets mega screwed over. She does. She should have gone to Australia. She should have just went to Australia because it wouldn't have mattered it anyway. Nope. But then his mother met a man named Patrick Brady. And they decided to move to

Starting point is 00:51:37 Manchester, England, so away from Glasgow. I was like, wait, they lived there already. No, but that was Myra, yeah. This made it difficult for Maggie and Ian to see each other all the time. So the visits are starting to dwindle. They are keeping in touch, but he starts rebelling a little bit. And he's like a teen almost. He's like a young kid. He's like a young teen, I'd say. So this, this started to, it bothered him a little bit. Yeah. But it didn't become like, a big thing. Like, he doesn't talk about it. Like, it was, he was like, we saw each other sometimes or, like, talked, you know, like, it was fine. And he ends up really liking Patrick Brady. They, like, get along very well. He becomes Ian Brady. Exactly. This is when he begins,

Starting point is 00:52:16 everybody said that they noticed he was bringing, like, a little, like, flip knife around with him all the time, which is not, like, out of the ordinary, especially boys at that time. Well, teenage boys fucking love knives. Well, then he started becoming a bully, and he was starting to become, like, a real alpha. And he was making kids fight each other. And he was making kids fight each other. He was getting into fights. He had to, and then he started hanging out with troublemakers, and these troublemakers were at his back and call kind of thing. Like, it was started, and that actually stayed throughout his life.

Starting point is 00:52:43 As soon as we get into, like, making other people fight, that's just bizarre and yucky. Yeah. And he, this is something that was his whole life. He was, he was a bully his whole life. He was kind of an alpha, his whole life. And he had, like, a pack of followers. And he always had someone who could do shit for him or with him. Like, Myra.

Starting point is 00:53:00 Yeah. So there is a rumor. There's a lot of rumors that come with Ian in particular. Myra doesn't get as many rumors about her upbringing as he does. So a lot of times people want to find a reason. Right. So people will associate things with people that just aren't true. Right.

Starting point is 00:53:17 One of the stories that gets told is that one day he tied this kid to a pole and got some newspaper, put it around the pole, wrapped him in it. And he tells all his friends who are there, I'm going to light him on fire and watch him burn to death. Oh. And the other kids are like, ha, what? Like, you know, like, excuse me? Oh, well, what? And then he lights a match and throws it on the newspaper. Now, this isn't true.

Starting point is 00:53:41 The kids freaked out. They got the kid untied. They saved him. Ian was pissed that they let him go. And the only kid, but the problem is the only kid who is saying this is the kid who was tied to the pole. He's the only one that tells this story. Well, yeah. All the other kids don't say. Because they didn't want to go against Ian. Ian though, now, well, now he's dead. But when he was alive, he was, yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:06 He would, he denied this. He was like, that never happened. He's like, what this kid is thinking of was role play. We would always play, like, war games and, like, fucked up games when we were little. Like, we were fucked up kids. Like, that's what happened. Yeah. He was like, we were, like, jumping on cars and holding on.

Starting point is 00:54:21 Like, we did weird shit. Right. And he was like, we would pretend to be, like, war criminals and, like, hold people. And he's like, I never lit anyone on fire. I never tried to. Well, and he admitted all the horrible things he did. He admits to raping, torturing, and murdering children with, like, no hesitation at all. He's like, yeah, I did that.

Starting point is 00:54:39 Like, there's really no reason to deny that. And he says it. He's like, I think people just are looking for little, like, signs. And he's like, there really wasn't. I was just a shithead. Like, that's just how it is. That's weird. And it's like, I don't know what to believe with that.

Starting point is 00:54:52 I mean, I want to, I'll believe the kid who said it happened. I was going to say, yeah. Yeah. That's what I'll do. You know what, guys, that's what I'm going to do. You heard it here first. I'm going to believe the kid that was tied to the pole. That's typically who you should believe.

Starting point is 00:55:05 Not the guy sitting in the jail cell. Yeah, exactly. And so in 1946, again, when he was like eight or nine years old, the Sloans took him and his siblings on vacation to lock a loamond. He said that this was the first time, because he had lived in, like, cities, in, like, small, like slummy kind of cities, too. And he, this was the first time he'd seen wide open spaces, which anybody who's like never been around wide open spaces can attest if you like the first time you are you just are like

Starting point is 00:55:36 it's like the first time we went to the berkshires i was like yeah it just blows your mind like it's just something different that you've never seen so he says quote i was shattered by the sense of vastness this new sense of reality and freedom was intoxicating i was incur i was encountering the naked essence of life itself this was the earth in cinemascope that's exactly what i thought the first time we went to the birchairs. That's exactly what went for your birth. The Earth and Cinema Scope. No, I was just like, wode as big. Well, and the reason I say this is because this was his first time where he was like, wow, like the beauty of wide open spaces. And later he would use Saddleworth Moore as this awful nightmare place. But he spent so much time on it and it became such a giant fixture in his life.

Starting point is 00:56:22 And that is weird. That it became something he like loved. So this was the first time he was exposed to that. And I think it's, Important. No, I just keep thinking, into the great wide open. There you go. I don't want to be thinking about Tom Petty Wong thinking about Ian Brady. You really don't. So his first girlfriend was like 11. He was like 11 years old. I know I said that weird. She was like 11. And I was like 11. Would it be shocking? No. No. He was like 11 years old when he had his first girlfriend. I should have said it like that. And early on, this is just a very interesting thing that comes up a little later. He discovered very early. early on that he, when he kissed someone, he liked to kiss them violently. He described it as violently, which to me I was like, oh, like, I had a very visceral reaction to reading that. I was like, no. That makes me feel yuck. And then I was like, what does that mean? Did he just like grab their head? He said he liked like when your teeth knocked together. Oh. And he said he liked when blood would flow into your mouth and mix with the other person's blood. That's never happened in my experience of making out with anyone. He liked to draw blood when he kissed people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he was like,

Starting point is 00:57:36 yeah, that's not weird at all. It's like, no, Ian, that's weird. So in 1950, that's when his mother married Patrick Brady. Uh-huh. And Ian took his last name. Now, Ian starts at this point committing, so he's like an early preteen. He's committing break-ins. Uh-huh. And he meets, he now has a gang. Petty theft. troublemakers and they're breaking into houses, they're stealing shit. He says sometimes they would just go in for the thrill of it and wouldn't steal anything. Okay. But it became a lifelong thing where he would steal and burglarize.

Starting point is 00:58:10 He began dating a girl. I'm not going to name her because I can't really find. Because that poor, poor girl. And I don't really know if it's her actual name that people are using. So I'm not going to say it. We're going to call her Emma. I like that. So he started dating a girl named Emma for a while.

Starting point is 00:58:26 He was obsessed with her. and he was obsessed with eyes. He had a thing with women's eyes. He would have loved you. I know. Oh, shit. It gets even better, ready? No.

Starting point is 00:58:38 He was obsessed with almond-shaped eyes. Girl. Run. And you have, like, fucking orange eyes, which is the weirdest. It's a little scary. So he was in, he said that over and over again, that eyes, almond-shaped eyes were, like, his thing. And he was always very. I can't picture myra's eyes.

Starting point is 00:58:56 Myra does not have almond- shaped eyes. She has big eyes. So he's like, fuck her. And he did say that her eyes were the one thing he she does. She does have giant eyes now that I'm picturing. And he did mention her eyes were the thing that like he actually liked. He was like, I can get past the rest of her. He was like I can pretend the rest of it just look at the eyes. Look at the eyes. But knock her teeth. These two, Emma and him dated like on and off throughout their lives kind of like they were like passing by. Emma was the one that got away. I think she was. And like they were always dating other people and kind of like fucking around on each other. and then they would just come back together and then break up again.

Starting point is 00:59:30 It was just one of those things. But one quote he had about her, I was like, yeah, that shows you exactly who he is as a person. Oh, no. He said, quote, her ears were shell-like, small and pink. My only interest in them was that I wanted to bite them. Okay. That's what Annie told me today that I had small ears. Maybe she wanted to bite them.

Starting point is 00:59:49 Did you want to bite my ears? No. Hell no. So when he was 15 years old, he also left school. Because again, that's kind of like the age at that point. You know, when you just leave school. That's the age when you just dip out of school. I tried.

Starting point is 01:00:03 So people, you did. I did. You gave it a valiant effort to get out there. I barely went. Yeah. So people say, this is another thing. People say he became obsessed with Nazis and shit. Oh, fuck.

Starting point is 01:00:15 But in his own words, he was fascinated by Nazis and he was fascinated by like Hitler and the whole thing. Again, world war, the world war had just occurred. And he said, but I was more fascinated. I was fascinated as much as. anyone else was. Yeah. And he wasn't, he said he wasn't obsessed. He really didn't like seek out a ton of information. He would read a book here and there. But he was like, the whole thing started after they were arrested for the Moors murders because it kind of helped people validate their own feelings of being like tied up with some ideology like Nazism. Right, right, right. So he basically

Starting point is 01:00:48 thinks people who are obsessed with Nazis and Hitler also want to bring him into that and just be like, look at these people. You are in your crazy. You know what I mean? But other sources I've read contradict that. And they say, no, he was. He would read, you know, Mn Kampf and he would read a lot of, like, German stuff. And he always wanted to be the German Nazi soldier when they played war games. And he would do Nazi salutes. And, like, he was, he, at one point I read that he collected Nazi memorabilia.

Starting point is 01:01:18 And, but he himself, but again, he's an unreliable source because he's a bullshit. Right. So he himself says he wasn't more into it than anyone else. but take from that what you will. Yeah, because we'll never know. It is weird that he, like we said earlier, we'll admit to, like, torturing or murdering children, but not, yeah, what happened before that. But then later, we're going to see soon that, like, little bits of this Nazi stuff do creep in. Well, and to me, I think he was a little fascinated by it, more fascinated than most.

Starting point is 01:01:47 And I think it's almost kind of a scare tactic for him to be like, no, I'm just like this. Yeah, there was no lead up to it. Nothing brought no signs. No one would have known. Maybe he probably, he probably was. I bet he was, I would say he was probably more fascinated than most of us. Yes. And maybe he brought it into a weird place.

Starting point is 01:02:04 Because I'm actually not fascinated. Yeah, I don't want to know anything about it. But like, you know, history is history. Historians are, you know what I mean? Yeah. I think he was definitely out a different level than that. Sure, sure, sure. Now, he and his gang of thieves got caught.

Starting point is 01:02:19 And they got caught. 15. Because someone snitched. Snitches gets stitched. So he found out who this guy was. tied him to a tree and lit him on fire. No. And waited 10 years for his revenge.

Starting point is 01:02:32 Well, that's just fucked up. He said, quote, I found his address and went up the stairs of his block 10 years later, in order to knock on the door and shoot him in the head. As I approached this door, a woman came out of another door on the same landing to beat a carpet on the stair rail. I remember she was using a clover-shaped beating stick. I had to turn away and walk down the stairs. On such little things people's lives depend. What the fuck?

Starting point is 01:02:57 Like, holy shit. Damn. Like, he's just like, you got me in trouble when I was 15, so I'm going to shoot you. But this lady with her clover beaten stick saved your ass. Yeah, and then he's just like, huh, such weird things that people's lives depend. Life is so funny, isn't it? Like, fucking Ian's such a dick.

Starting point is 01:03:15 Like, he's just, when you hear him talk, you're just like, oh, God. I also, I get like Ed Kemper vibes where he just fucking loves to talk about himself. He definitely has Ed Kemper vibes in the sense. that he likes to talk about himself, but Ian Brady, unfortunately, was highly intelligent. Like, Ed Kemper is too, though, right? He was, too, but on like a different way. I don't know how to explain it. It's like, yeah, I get what you're saying.

Starting point is 01:03:38 Eden's, like, very far up the scale, unfortunately. It's not a good thing. But he also discovered around this time that he was bisexual. Cool. And it turns out that Myra was also bisexual. Okay. And this might have been something else that, like, you know, they had in common that they felt, Because again, at the time, it's not like everyone was running around being like, I'm I.

Starting point is 01:04:00 Right. And so I think. Was there even a word for it at that point? I don't even know. So I think them having that in common at that point also drew them together once they discovered it. They had some stuff in common. Yeah. So the gang, the, you know, the gang of thieves that he ran around with, they got caught several times.

Starting point is 01:04:16 And Ian had a few probations, like a few times where he had to serve probation. But that comes back for him later as well. That's good. One, I think the last thing that people usually get wrong about Ian, and this one they actually do get wrong because it's proven. He denies harming any animal. And I know this is like a thing because when I read it, I was like, oh, good for you. Like you murdered children.

Starting point is 01:04:43 Except children. Glad you didn't hurt a squirrel. But a lot of people like will say these whole things of like how he was murdering, you know, he was killing animals and skinning them. Because it's a sign again. Because it's one of those things that you just expect to be in. Right. Mark of a murderer. Like a Jeffrey Dahmer, you know what I mean? Yeah. So he's adamant that the rumors about him harming animals are completely untrue. And he has had, so when he was younger and living with the Sloans, he had three rabbits, a big gray called Jenny, a black one named Harry, and a small one named Smokey. He had a black and silver German shepherd called Una and a cocker spaniel named Sheila. And everyone who knew him said that when Sheila died, he was inconsolable. That's like, was it Israel Keys who was super attached to his animals?

Starting point is 01:05:29 Yeah. It's a weird thing. And he wouldn't go to a house with an animal. Yeah. Yeah. He and Myra later, because Myra also loved animals. Weird. And him and Myra later got a dog and named it puppet.

Starting point is 01:05:42 And they loved that dog. They treated that dog very well. And you can see that pup in some of the happy photos they took together on Saddleworth Moors. Oh, wow. The ones that they took after they would bury a victim there and they would mark. the graves with a happy smiling photo of Myra holding the dog. I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:06:01 That's how they, and we'll talk about it later, but on like the second part. It's like a weird form of animal abuse. That's actually where they found a lot of the victim's graves was by those photos. Wow. Yeah. So the day, in the daily mail, they had an article about this. And they said that a lot of sources will claim things like he imprisoned cats. He, you know, crucified frogs.

Starting point is 01:06:24 He would slice up caterpillars. He would behead rabbits and put their heads on a pike. And that later he got a job at a slaughterhouse. And that's where he really got a taste for blood and gore. No, that was just the making out. That's all, exactly. That's all untrue. He never worked in a slaughterhouse. He was a butcher delivery kid once. So they got the story wrong. But he never worked in a slaughterhouse. And he cried when his dog died. And also when he was younger, he remembers this very vivid thing of seeing a whole. horse being injured and seeing the horse being put down and it like destroyed him until he died.

Starting point is 01:06:59 That is sad. In fact, the way he describes it is this. He said, and the reason I'm saying this is because you're going to see how he like goes very deep into how the emotions of this horse were the thing that like seeing the terror in his eyes like bothered him. So he can identify emotion. But you saw terror in children's eyes and you like what? It's on a different way.

Starting point is 01:07:20 It's like very strange. It's like such a dichotomy of, he has two very well. weird compartmentalized versions of himself. He's a Capricorn. I know. I don't know. So he said, quote, it lay there with its massive sides heaving, in its breath steaming the frosty air. I was near enough to touch the large head. I can still see the great liquid eyes rolling in terror, looking up in the gray Glasgow morning sky. Its great FedEx raised, or excuse, yeah, raked to the air, braggled and wet. A man appeared from nowhere to erect a canvas green around the Clydesdale. They were going to kill the horse. Even I knew it. My chest was bursting and I began to

Starting point is 01:07:59 cry. I fought my way through the mass of bodies and ran to Camden Street, trying to hold on to the bag of hot rolls with my hands clapped over my ears. I sat on the tenement stairs until the tears dried up before taking the rolls to Ma. I was afraid to wander near the spot where the horse had died. I couldn't bear to see the remains of bloodstains and hairs. I couldn't rid the event and seen from my mind. And then he said, later, I saw something in a dark railway arch that triggered the image of that Clydesdale, suddenly changing my relaxed mood to one of ice-cold fury and leading to a frenzied knife attack on a man in the street. I didn't hang around to check whether it was fatal. It was enough

Starting point is 01:08:41 for me to feel that the Clydesdale had been avenged. So he just knifed a man to feel better because he had a case of the SADS from seeing an injured horse when he was little. What? No, sir. That is not how that works. No, that's not how we process trauma. I saw a cat run over by a car on Halloween night when I was like 12. That's horrible. I didn't knife anyone because of it. I don't feel I need to avenge that cat. I feel bad about it, but like I'm not going to go avenge somebody. No. Like, that's fucked. And it just shows. Like, how can he feel that way about an animal?

Starting point is 01:09:17 That's the weirdest thing to me because like, what? Yeah. Well, either way, the way he says it is I could never have brought myself to kill sheep or cattle. But the idea of killing people never bothered me in the least. Obviously. Which to me, the one thing I can say is it seems to me like he started realizing that he just liked animals more than people. That's just a lot of people do actually. Yeah. And he just kind of was like, this is I enjoy, which I mean, I enjoy animals more than a lot of people. Same. Not to that extent, though. I like my cats a lot better than I like anybody else. And to prove his commitment to animals, the Proceeds from his autobiography entitled Black Light, by the way.

Starting point is 01:09:58 He wrote an autobiography. He had it split between four pet charities. He really should have given it to the victim's families. Well, I'm like, why are you such a shit person? Isn't that a thing now? If you write a book from jail, it goes to the victims families. It's like a different law, but back then it was not. So you think that you know your dog best, huh?

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Starting point is 01:11:59 So this is when he got the job as the butcher's delivery driver. And he used this job to case houses for burglarizing. Great. Yeah. So he bounced around from job to job a bit. He's like, here's your stake. Yeah. Any valuables?

Starting point is 01:12:12 He's like, just want to check around real quick. He ended up getting an apprentice job at a shipyard. And he was just doing like loading things and working in the market there. And in 1953 at 15 years old, he got caught again for burglarizing. And this time, he was charged with nine counts of burglary. Damn. He ended up going on probation again. But this time, they were like, the Sloan family, his family, was sure by this point,

Starting point is 01:12:39 they were like, he's going to go to prison. Because they were like, it's caught up to him. Yeah, they were like, I don't think, because he was initially given probation, but then he had to appear again for a couple more counts. When he kept breaking probation. And they were like, I'm pretty sure they're going to. give him jail time now. Like, I don't think he's going to get out of this. But the judge was like, no, no, no, it's fine. We'll just deport you from Scotland. But that's where he was from, right?

Starting point is 01:13:01 Yeah. Where were they going to deport him to? Anywhere but Scotland. Which is a bummer for him because he loves. Yeah. Because it's his birthplace. Yeah, that's where he lives. So they were like, all right, you can leave now. So he was like, cool. Where do you let go? I guess I'll go live with Maggie, my birth mother in Manchester, because she's living in Manchester with Patrick Brady. All right. My stepfather. Glory, Glory, Man United. He was very, he was devastated to leave the Sloan family, but he was like, you know what, it'll be nice to live with my birth mother.

Starting point is 01:13:29 And he literally had no other choice. So he was like, and I have to. And also, got to go. I can't feel anything about this because it just has to. He was like, I don't want to go, but I got to go. Well, eventually, he fell in with some friends there once he moved. Like, he was pretty quick that he felt pretty comfortable. You know, he was just drinking at pubs and chasing girls.

Starting point is 01:13:49 He was just like being a person. And doing petty theft. He could do a petty theft. He got like his own little gang again. It was like everything was fine. He actually got a nickname Mac the Knife. That's, I don't like that one. They originally called him Mack.

Starting point is 01:14:03 But then they changed it to Mac the knife. And accordingly, he only liked to be called Mack. He did not like Mac the knife. Because it's stupid. But not because it's stupid. It was because he didn't like people knowing he carried a knife all the time because he was very obsessed with surprising his enemies. Oh, good. So he didn't like that.

Starting point is 01:14:21 That it gave them, like, a heads up that he had a knife. Ooh, did you hear that thunder? That was crazy thunder. It's bugsy from below deck. I don't know what that is. It's okay. Okay. So he grew very close to his stepfather to Patrick Brady.

Starting point is 01:14:35 The neighbors around them said they all seemed very happy together living there. Yeah. That Ian was always very respectful of his stepfather and his mom. But some other neighbors were like, yeah, he was pretty quiet and, like, fine and respectable. But sometimes he would make some racist remarks. Oh. So it's like, oh, no. Well, and you said like the Nazis.

Starting point is 01:14:57 Yeah. So to me, that's like for the proof, right? He kind of had that ideology. So this is around this time is when he started buying cameras and he became very obsessed with filming things, which obviously comes back later. That's one of the 22 tendencies of a sochiopath. He was a sokiopath. He was a different kind of path.

Starting point is 01:15:17 Of a sociopath. Actually, it's also it's of a sexual status. Yeah, there you go. Well, yeah, he was that. So, well, while at work one day, this was a big thing. This truck driver or a lorry driver pulled up and asked Ian, you know, will you let, well you, it's contagious. It's hard. It's hard to talk.

Starting point is 01:15:36 So he said, will you load this sack of lead seals? It was like this equipment. He said, they'd been discarded on the docks. And he was like, will you load these into my truck because I'm going to take them? And apparently it was pretty common for truck drivers to do this and, like, make some extra money. And Ian just didn't think about it because he was just working as an apprentice. And when a truck driver asked him to do something, he did it. It was his job.

Starting point is 01:15:58 So he loaded the stuff and just went about his business. Well, it turned out that the Lori driver was selling it and he got caught. The person who bought it from him was like, wait, this is stolen. Oh. And he called the police. And the Lori driver was like, Ian did it, like basically implicated him. Like put past the buck. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:17 So suddenly Ian's in trouble, like out of nowhere. That sucks. And detectives detained him. They questioned him. But he was like, so he just told them everything because he was like, I figured if anything, I get a fine because I didn't mean to do it. Right. And he was like, and it really wasn't that big of a deal anyways. Right.

Starting point is 01:16:31 But he was like, so I was honest with them. I told them everything. Well, he was pissed because they put him in front of a judge the next morning. And the judge was like, yeah, you're going to wait three months in jail because you pled guilty to this. And the next time we're going to do like these trials. for this is three months. So he was like, are you fucking kidding me? That sucks. So during this time is when he read the book Crime and Punishment by Dostovsky, Dostovsky. Dostovsky. There you go. I can never say it. I'm good at German. Well done. I had an OMA once. Well, there you go. Dostovsky.

Starting point is 01:17:08 Is that German or Russian? I don't know. I think it might be Russian. I don't know. Either way, you did agree. Thanks. I appreciate it. And this is when he starts like, books on like nihilism and existentialism and he really considered himself an existentialist. So he believed that, you know, everything is entirely up to him as an individual. He could live in whatever manner he chooses. No, wrong. You cannot. He could have his own moral code.

Starting point is 01:17:34 No. It doesn't work like that. And again, he was also a nihilist. So he thought that life was, there was really no meaning to life. Maybe there's not. Maybe you could have that. Yeah. And he said, you know, the universe has no purpose.

Starting point is 01:17:46 There's no one dictating this. There's no fate. And that religion's just really a delusion that people have and that he was the only one who understood this. It's like a little bit sad. It's very sad. It's a little too bleak for me. He was very bleak. That is for sure. And after three months, he went back in front of the judge and they gave him two years. And they sentenced him to do these two years at like a training camp called a Borstall, which was apparently for people under, I think the age of 23. Uh-huh. And it ended up being like a military kind of training thing.

Starting point is 01:18:22 Like boot camp almost. Yeah. And he was transferred to Hatfield Borstel, which was a military training camp. And this was specifically for one, one for men or young men, really, boys and men, that they didn't really have a crazy criminal record. And also they were above high intelligence. So this was for like those. So he became cadet Kelly.

Starting point is 01:18:43 Exactly. Exactly. But after being given a psychological exam, they deemed him unfit for military service. Makes a lot of sense. Which is like good on them. So he was transferred out of there because he got drunk on prison booze one night and attacked a warden. So they transferred him to a very harsh borstal, which was located in whole prison. This is where he spent a ton of time learning to brew his own alcohol.

Starting point is 01:19:11 He became an alcoholic then. he became very hardened. He started making lots of contacts with people on the inside that later he could use for like bad shit. And he learned accounting because they realized that because you had to get. And also learned how to balance the books. He also was crunching numbers. He was into assets and the other thing. You know.

Starting point is 01:19:33 Debtes. And debts. No, they just discovered that like he was a really smart guy. He was very talented in numbers. So they were like, you know what? You can do the bookkeeping. Cool. And he learned it. I don't know if it helped him later. It's a very valuable thing to have on your list of things you can do.

Starting point is 01:19:48 I wish I was that good with numbers. But he was released at 19 years old. He went back to Glasgow at this point. And he was eventually just trying out more jobs, you know, going with his probation. But this is when he bowed revenge because he was pissed that he had been put in prison. I was going to ask for one, telling the truth. And two, for something he was like, I was just trying to help this truck driver out. And then he turned on me. He was like, he really wanted to find the truck driver. but he didn't. I'm surprised he didn't show up on his door 10 years later. Well, then he said, quote, if they wanted me to be a criminal, then I thought to myself, I'll be a proper one. That's like so teenager. I know. If you think I am, then I am. Then I'm going to be it.

Starting point is 01:20:27 Well, and he claimed that he stabbed a guy during this time, and he said about it, he was like, I don't know if he died or not. And then they were like, why'd you do that? And he said, quote, there was a reason. I felt justified at the time. Okay. Okay, then. No further questions, Mr. Brady. What else are you going to ask? All right. So his probation officer was like, you need to get a real job. You need to get a career.

Starting point is 01:20:48 You've got to stop stabbing people just because you feel like it. Stop knifing people. Listen, Mac the knife. Drop the knife. Yeah, like, chill out. And he was 21 years old at this point in 1959, and he was like, fine. So he was like, I'll get an office job. Okay.

Starting point is 01:21:04 I'll really balance the book. And he said, quote, if I hadn't been so forced, I wouldn't have ended up with Myra as my typist and been brought down by existential folly. Before that, all my objectives were mercenary, which means, like, you know, motivated by money. He was like, but, you know, then all of a sudden I had a higher purpose. Oh, yeah. So at this point, he had also really come into, like, personal style at this point. Like, pictures you see of him, he's always wearing, like, a three-piece suit. He's pretty stylish. Well, and it's weird. Like, he just, like, was, that's, I don't know. He's jazzy. Does it fit with his personality, maybe? I don't know. His hair is also always, like,

Starting point is 01:21:39 slicked. Oh, he had a very like that, um, what's it called? Bufant. Is it a Bufon? Is it a Bufon? Pompadour. I almost just said Pada Boudabu Ray. He had a Poudabu Ray. Like, okay. He had a ballet move. Like, what? We're nearing the end and it's very hot in the attic. And I was just, I was like, people are screaming at the, like, stereo that they're listening to. Yeah, Pompadour. I know. I'm a fucking hairstylist, too. Yeah, he had a pompadour. And like, he just like, he loved. the three-piece suits he always got them tailored perfectly he was just very meticulous that way the reason i say this is because like myra tried to kind of match that style later and to be honest they were a very nicely dressed couple between the two of them

Starting point is 01:22:22 they loved banana republics they were very fancy real high class so this is when he started working at milward's merchandising with myra i keep saying i keep saying with moira because of shitt's creek this was february 16th 1959 so So initially, like I said, not endure. Uh-uh. You're ugly. Didn't even remember her really when they first met. Yikes.

Starting point is 01:22:46 He said, quote, and I quote. Oh, God. This is how much a dick he was. Like, he knew how obsessed she was with him. He could at least bullshit later. We'll be like, yeah, I liked her. No, Elena. Life doesn't matter.

Starting point is 01:22:56 So who cares what you say. So he said, quote, she was simply the new typist as far as I was concerned. I paid no more attention to her than I did the rest of the females on the staff. That is to say very little. I can't recall having any memorable conference. conversations with her. It was just standard routine office dialogue. I didn't go for her paroxide hairstyle. Like what a dick. Cut and dry. What a straight up dick. So at this point, she saw Ian, she wanted Ian. She's like immediately. You like my peroxide hair. You like it. You do. So she ended up

Starting point is 01:23:28 breaking off her engagement to Ronnie. Right. He was devastated. Duh. He obviously tried to get her back. He would like call her all the time. It's sad. It's okay. You won. You did. You really did. So she also started writing constantly in a journal that she kept at work and locked in her drawer. That's a weird place to journal. The first entry in the journal, Ian looked at me today. Shut the fuck up. No joke. Shut the fuck up.

Starting point is 01:23:53 I'm just going to give you a couple of other entries because they are what? That's sad. Like, yikes. Ian looked at me today. That's enough to journal about. July 23rd, 1961. Wonder if Ian is courting. Still feel the same.

Starting point is 01:24:07 Okay. The 20, July 25th. Haven't spoken to him yet. July 27th, spoke to him. He smiles as though embarrassed. I'm going to change. You'll notice that in the way I write. I'm going to change.

Starting point is 01:24:19 Yeah, she's like, I'm going to change myself. I'm like you're going to notice it. That's sad. August 14th, I love Ian all over again. He has a cold and I would love to mother him. Ew. Ew. No.

Starting point is 01:24:29 August 24th. I'm in a bad mood because he hasn't spoken to me today. August 29th. I hope he loves me and will marry me someday. Wow, that escalated quickly. Yeah. Myra was in trouble because a psychiatrist of Brady said about him, quote, Brady is intelligent, tall, charismatic, engaging, interesting to talk to, widely knowledgeable about certain areas of life, and extremely self-controlled. I like that she threw tall in there.

Starting point is 01:24:55 Yeah. He is able to dangle you on a string if he knows that you want to know something about him and he doesn't want you to know. If he doesn't want it, you won't learn what it is you want to know. He sounds like the best time ever. Sounds scary. Sounds like a lot of exes. In that Guardian article I mentioned that Myra wrote in December 1995, she said, quote, For almost a year during which I broke off my engagement, he took virtually no notice of me. It was a year of emotional torture which I'd never experienced before. I went from loving him to hating him and loving and hating him at the same time.

Starting point is 01:25:30 When he smiled or was even a little nice to me, I felt blessed and floated on air. She also explains how she obsessively stalked him outside of work, hoping to see him in bars near his home, and then walking her baby cousin in a stroller by his house, the address of which she overheard him saying on a work call. Yeah. Eventually, all this commitment that she had paid off for. I mean, work hard for what you get. Because she was also a voracious reader, and she would read at work on like lunch break, and he would too. So they had that in common. So one day he came up to her and was like, what you read in?

Starting point is 01:26:09 And they started talking about books. And that was how the conversation began. Then in 1961, their office had their Christmas party. And it was after this party that he asked for their first date. So they met at the Three Arrow's Pub. They saw a movie afterwards. And after the movie, they got another drink and then walked back to Myrus. I'm confused about why he even wanted to hang out with her, though, if he didn't think of her much.

Starting point is 01:26:33 Well, I think it was because, first of all, like, he could see that she was also into, like, reading. Yeah. And then they were interested in the same books. Like, he was like, oh, I want to read that. And she was like, oh, I want to read that. So I think he was starting to see, like, maybe she'll think like I do. Okay. So he also just wanted to give it a shot.

Starting point is 01:26:49 So they went back to Myra's, and he's walking her there. And they started, like, making out on the street. And he, he bit her lip the first time they kissed. He also said, because they were like, because, again, he's a. very violent kisser. And she loves him. He felt that she was wearing a girdle under her clothes. And he told her, I don't like girdles. They accumulate stale sweat. And she never wore a girdle again. He's not wrong. But I was like, wowser. I would have been like, all right. Yeah, right. I was like, this is our first date. You assaulted me and you insulted me.

Starting point is 01:27:26 I'm not into it. So they went out again the next day, which was Christmas Eve. They went to a church service, which he was not psyched about. I know. When they left, he actually peed on the side of the church and said, this is what I think about religion. They then went to Myra's house and fucked by the fire. All right. And that's when Myra lost her virginity. So she didn't save herself for marriage. She was saving it for marriage.

Starting point is 01:27:50 But then Ian came sauntering in. Right after church. Right after he like defecate while he didn't defecate. But right after he assaulted your church. Yeah. And then he met her father and mother. Her mother was nodded to him because her mother said. And her mother said, and her mother said, he's like your father.

Starting point is 01:28:05 Oh. Like, she was like, good, good try with that. And then the father liked him a lot. Because he was like, you're like me. And she wrote in her diary, quote, Ian is so gentle. He makes me want to cry. Yeah. That's what she wrote about him meeting her dad.

Starting point is 01:28:21 Oh. To which I say, yikes. Yeah. Woof. Now, he had a motorbike that he had gotten recently, and he would just randomly stop by her place without announcing. Vroom, Vroom, Myra. And she stopped going out with friends or going anywhere just on the chance that he would stop by.

Starting point is 01:28:37 So you can already see this is becoming a very sad. A very like. It's not even like he was like, you need to be home. She was like, I must be home. I will be home. I must see his three-piece suit and perfectly clothed pompadour. So you can already see how the power dynamic is in this relationship. Yes.

Starting point is 01:28:51 To further show how different they viewed their relationship, in 1962, she wrote in her diary, I've been at Milworth's for 12 months and only had just gone out with him. I hope Ian and I love each other all of our lives and get married and are happily ever after. Yeah, good luck with that, sister. And of this time, Ian says, quote, I behaved as though nothing had occurred between us. This wasn't difficult. From my point of view, nothing had. Myra should accept that face or find some loser and pastors new.

Starting point is 01:29:19 She could do whatever she wanted, I intended to. Oh, sweetie. What a dick! That sounds like every dude I've ever dated. Like, what a dick. So either way, they hunt. out a ton. They started hanging out on Saddleworthmore, and this was a place they would go to walk. And after spending a lot of time exploring there and hanging out, Ian admitted that they did grow

Starting point is 01:29:42 close and were virtually living together at one point. Eventually, I let her shoot her shot. She was fine. He felt like he could speak freely around her. And like I said, it seemed like a soulmate kind of thing and not a sexual attraction thing, at least on his side. It seemed like Ian just liked that he, they understood each other. Okay. So they had a lot of discussions about creating their own lives and how lives was, their lives were what they make them. They didn't want to be hammered into marriage. They didn't want kids. They said, life's what you make it. So let's make it wrong. Exactly. That's exactly what she says. Do you know what that's from? No. That's why I didn't know that. So she was like, he was like a cult leader with her. Yeah. Like to the point where she would just be

Starting point is 01:30:25 entranced by him. But he didn't even have to do like he wasn't even. trying to be like that. He wasn't manipulating her. She was just entranced by him. Right. Like anything he said, she was like, yes. Yes, Ian. With those like swirley twirley twirley's in her eyes.

Starting point is 01:30:38 He later said, quote, when we were together, there was a third entity, something intangible that possessed a power beyond both of us. We were both conscious of the joint momentum developing into an evocative united force. So he's saying, like, the two of us together were a fucking force and we could feel it. coming. Like, we're giving themselves a little too much credit. I feel like they both just wanted to kill people. They definitely are good. I don't think there was like a black air around them. About Ian Brady is he thinks he is so much more than he actually is. Yeah, all that and a bag of chips. He thinks he's Hannibal Lecter. Like he needs to calm down. Right. So she said, quote, within months he had convinced me that there was no God at all. He could have told me that the earth was

Starting point is 01:31:22 flat. The moon was made of green cheese and that the sun rose in the west and I would have believed him. He became my god, my idol, my object of worship, and I worshipped him blindly. I just couldn't say no to him. They ended up having nicknames for each other. She called him Nettie because it was after like the show they loved, the goon show. There was a character on there. Because there are a couple of goons. You know, and he called her kiddo.

Starting point is 01:31:46 That makes sense because it's so patronizing. It's so demeaning. Yeah, it is. And they also had a secret code where if they would raise their eyeballs, brows, twice. It was called a groucho. And it meant, and it meant follow my eye line. So it was like for them to be like, I'm looking at something over here. Look at it with me. And then they would say DC. Well, and then because both of them were bisexual and very like open with their sexuality, sure. They would say DC, which meant which meant delicious creature. And it was to be like, this person's hot over here. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 01:32:19 Yeah. So like that alone, you're like, wow, that would be cute if you guys didn't suck. They came into this us against the world kind of thing, which we see in a lot of these situations. They decided they hated everyone and everyone was stupider than they were and everyone else was expendable and they were above everybody. No, shut up. Myra molded herself into what she thought Ian wanted her to look like and basically he kind of told her what he liked. Did she get rid of her blonde hair? Nope, she kept the blonde hair, but she used to dress like I said, like pretty modestly and normal. and she started dressing in like very like provocative things like to get attention.

Starting point is 01:32:57 Yeah. She would dress up in high heels and boots, which is not like crazy, but for her it was. For her, yeah. In like short, tight skirts. She was like, I'm going to change. Showing the bosoms a little bit. And this goes back to the Nazi thing. And this is because Ian has said that he had a real infatuation with a woman named Irma Grayson.

Starting point is 01:33:16 Now this woman was an SS guard at the Nazi concentration camps. of Ravensbrough and Auschwitz. And she served as warden of the women's section. And she's known to be, like, ruthless. And she was known to, like, dress in the stark, like, SS uniform with, you know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. And Myra carried her photo around.

Starting point is 01:33:39 That's weird as shit. Yeah. And she also said, this is later she said, she was like, you know, I loved him and he was so hot and blah, blah, blah. And then she was like, but he couldn't kiss for shit. Well, because he's fucking assaulting your face. And that's when she was like, yeah, he always drew blood when he kissed. Yeah, like, that's not enjoyable.

Starting point is 01:33:55 So this is, like, real now. She's head over heels and trans by him. He's feeling like they're unified, at least. And they had a live-fast, die-young motto between two of them. So that was their thing. Oh, God. They're just getting so lame. I was going to say, I literally hate them at this point.

Starting point is 01:34:11 So he said he made sure that, you know, this is an open relationship. I can fuck whoever I want. And she was like, cool. No. Now, he introduced her to, like, classical music. and the books he read. He very much influenced her in that way. He's like, this, showing her this stuff.

Starting point is 01:34:26 Then came the weird discussions. Uh-huh. Ian brought up enemies and the idea that everyone has an enemy, and everyone has an enemy that they would like to see die. And if you say that you don't, you're lying. And he asked Myra if she had anyone that she would like to see dead, and she responded, Ronnie Sinclair. That's not fair at all.

Starting point is 01:34:47 Which is fucked up. And then he was like, all right, give me details. No. And she got really vivid and cold about it. And he said she actually surprised him with how ruthless she was when talking about it. And she said she wanted him to be humiliated before he was killed. You already did. You fucking left him for no reason.

Starting point is 01:35:06 She wanted to watch. She said she would feel nothing for having anything to do with his death and told Ian, quote, I want him to be terrified, Nettie, to know that he's going to die. Then they went to Saddleworth More and planned it out and said that they can make it look like an accident. So he followed him home and to work several times. They were really going to do this. They plotted. They planned this meticulously.

Starting point is 01:35:29 It never happened. Huh. I wonder why. And he got into a motorbike accident shortly after the planning process started. And I think it just got like shifted to the wayside. And they were just like, I'll do that. We'll do that in 10 years. So Myra claims that he threatened to kill himself if she left him.

Starting point is 01:35:43 Oh, cute. To which he says, quote, she flatters herself. Oh, fuck. I just love the quotes between the two of them. are so funny to read. Later, she said, later he did say, of course we were in love. Okay. And then he said, at least he said that.

Starting point is 01:35:59 We wanted to go down together at the trial, which is true. And we'll talk about that at the trial. So he does admit, like, we were in love. Yeah. That is a thing. They were definitely into, like, super rough sex between the two of them, which myrero. I can only imagine with the way that he kisses. He kisses to draw blood.

Starting point is 01:36:16 So you can take what you want from that. Myra said she often had to drink in order to, like, really. get into it. They drank a bottle of wine a day, she said, together. I'm surprised they weren't more bloated. He also had a thing where he liked a candlestick shoved up his ass, which I just think it's funny because fucking you're Brady. That also reminds me of what's that show? Shameless. There you go. So that, yeah, that's him. Then they had pillow talk and the pillow talk would suddenly turn into his fantasies about raping and killing a child and not getting away with it. Oh. So here we see how Myra is not this innocent victim because she was like, oh, tell me more, like right after they

Starting point is 01:36:56 fucked. And they wanted it to be the perfect crime. And they started talking about it real. I'm normally like, you want to buy a big house someday? Yeah. But no, he was like, I would really love to abduct and murder a child and not get away with it. And she was like, sounds great. Did he ever come up and say, why children? No. That's so weird to me. Well, he, yeah, he never really explains it. Well, when talking about this, Myra said later that, she just liked swimming against the tide and not doing other things that people did or doing things that people wouldn't do. So she's just like going against things.

Starting point is 01:37:28 Like killing children. Which it's like, yeah. Like swim against the tide of like people eating tide pods. That tide. Swim against that tide. But the tide of people like loving and cherishing and projecting children or just not caring about like just ignoring children. Go with that flow.

Starting point is 01:37:45 Swim with that tide. Like you don't have to give a shit about children. Just ignore them. Right. Like why? This is not a. tide that you swim against. I don't understand. So he had her read this novel by My Eleven. It was called compulsion, I think. And it was a fictional novel that was took, it basically was based off of Leopold and

Starting point is 01:38:04 Loeb. Oh, okay. Whoa. That was a big thunder clap. Damn. And he, which we covered in our first live show. We did. And so this was obviously a fictional telling of this killer or these two killers killing a child, basically. For thrill. And these killers thought they were above everything. They thought they were smarter than everyone. And he was like, use this as a manual. This is who we are.

Starting point is 01:38:28 No, it's not. She read it and they were ready to go. So Ian showed her how to conquer her emotions, she said, and how to appear level-headed so people around them would just think they were a normal, decent couple. And Ian said the way Myra was infatuated with him and looked up to him, made him confident that this was the time to be killing children.

Starting point is 01:38:48 Okay. So it was like, thanks, Myra. So they got a black van, and they drove around Manchester to find kids and start this whole process. So Ian took photos of children playing, which they like compensated these later, and there really is, he took photos of children playing and like, yeah. And they went to like Myra's old school and took photos of children outside. They followed children, took notes.

Starting point is 01:39:13 They discussed how to lure one into a van since Myra was a one. woman and she figured children would take comfort in that. Uh-huh. And they planned to bury the children they killed at Saddleworth Moors. And they visited the spots several times. They plotted it out. Ian would hold Myra and she would go limp like a dead body so that they could practice carrying a dead limp child across the Moors.

Starting point is 01:39:37 Oh, my God. And they did this several times. And Myra admits this. She did this happily, she said, because she said she wanted to do this. Like, let's do this. Uh-huh. She said, quote, I was convinced. Considered good with children, an excellent babysitter and able to put children at ease.

Starting point is 01:39:52 Could I therefore be considered capable of child abduction or violence towards children? Apparently. To which I say, yes. Yes, you can. Yeah, girl. Now we're going to end it here. Bye. Because right after this is when they started their reign of terror.

Starting point is 01:40:09 Mm-hmm. And now you are caught up after almost two hours. Damn. Two hours. Yeah. Okay. So that is Myra and Ian. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:40:20 And that is them getting up to the point of planning their first murder. That's fucked up. And it's going to be rough in part two because we are coming up right to the murder of Pauline Reed, who was their first victim. She was 16 years old. Oh. And yeah. So hopefully you guys are, hopefully I have given you enough ammo that you are just feeling so much rage towards Ian and Myra because shit's going to get so much worse. I definitely feel a lot of rage.

Starting point is 01:40:48 Yeah. So that is, that's their tale up until now. I don't really know how to tell you to follow us on Instagram. Yeah. But you can do that. You could do it at Morbid Podcast. I guess if you want to follow us on Twitter, feel free. At a Morbid Podcast.

Starting point is 01:41:01 And if you have any listener tales, any case suggestions, any, uh, anything, hit up the Gmail account where you can talk to us. Morbid Podcast at gmail.com. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you. Keep it weird. But that's where you dye your hair platinum blood and you're like, oh my God, I'm going to meet this cool guy named Ian and I'm going to write my diary about it every single day. I'm going to be like, oh my God, I'm going to change for you, Ian.

Starting point is 01:41:23 Look at me reading this book on a luncheon of love books. Let's go kill kids. No, don't keep it that weird. Don't. Fuck that. Don't.

Morbid - Joe Metheny

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