Morbid - Kurt Cobain Part 2

Episode Date: April 18, 2019

In the conclusion to our deep dive into the death of Kurt Cobain, we talk about the crime scene in more depth, the events leading up to Kurt's eventual discovery, Courtney Love's possible role and the investigation that still has us scratching our heads. Did Kurt die by his own hand that day in his Seattle greenhouse, or was someone else behind the shotgun? This case is a real mystery....or is it? Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. Super morbid. Wicked fucking morbid. It's actually about to get real morbid. Yeah. Because we are finishing Kirk Cobain off.

Pat two. Pat two. Pat two kid. Pat two kids. You just lost 400 followers. Um, so what's up, weirdos? How's your week been? It's probably only like Wednesday or Thursday.

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I have it. Just go. Go get that. The husband did do it. Go get it. So in other news, we are going to be doing a Q&A for our patronesses. I've asked you guys a bunch of like give me your time zones and your days and your best times and all that good stuff. And all of you were awesome enough to answer me.

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Are we going to try and do it like next week? I think we're going to give that a shot. Cool. So look forward to it next week, guys. I will let you know on all our accounts. So you'll be well aware and on the Patreon. But thank you for being so awesome and giving me all the times when I asked for them. You guys are the best.

We fucking love you. We'll also be having a bonus episode for you guys coming out very shortly. We'll shout out Patreon's at the end of the episode. Yes, patronesses are going to get your day in the sun at the end of the episode. So stay tuned. And I think we should just jump right into Car Cobain Part 2. 1, 2, 3, go. So I think when we last left you guys, we were talking about the crime scene.

We didn't give like super deets, but we were. We gave you the basics. We were giving you the basics of what was going on and we were kind of teasing you with, we're going to give you some details. This week we're getting into it. Yeah, you are going to get details. So hang tight. Detail City.

Now, I'm going to start off with the coroner. O'Kor? Dr. Nicholas Harchome is inaccurately labeled as a coroner in a lot of places, actually. Because I keep seeing articles that are like, the coroner in this case, the coroner in this case, the coroner in this case. He wasn't a coroner. So that's good. That's awesome. He's also dead now. RIP. RIP to that. He died in a crazy base jumping accident, accident, because he was known as Dr. Death, not to be confused with the podcast, but he liked doing like crazy, you know, he would like skydive, base jump, do all that shit. He was like an adrenaline.

and junkie. We can't really talk to him anymore. Bummer. Yeah. So the thing with the coroner label, that just kind of bugs me, because maybe it's because I work in, like, the death industry. I literally cannot. I don't know what else to call it. The death industry. What do you do for work? I'm actually in the death industry. I am. So I think it just bothers me when terms get, like, misconstrued. Yeah, and, like, flipped around. So coroners tend to be

elected officials who, like, consult with forensic pathologists. on autopsies, they don't have to be medical doctors. Okay. Was he a doctor? He was. He was a doctor. So from what I can tell, Seattle has a medical examiner, which are medical doctors, specializing in forensic pathology.

So they went through a specialized forensic pathology program to become medical examiners. Got it. That's just a note. Other than this, Dr. Harchome was the first medical professional to arrive at Kurt's death scene. and he did the autopsy. But he was only employed at the time by the medical examiner's office on a single year forensics fellowship

and had not yet taken the accreditation examination to become a certified medical examiner. That's fucked. Like he was essentially an apprentice. He was just, he was on his way. And I mean, hey, maybe he knew all his shit. Right. I mean, he did become a medical examiner,

so he knew he was doing. But at the time, He was only 30 years old. Like, that's younger than me. Like, no, I'm, I gave you that look. You're like, wait, what? And he, but he was essentially just an apprentice medical examiner. And when he shows up on one of the most insane death scenes ever, like the most high profile,

they should have never sent a fucking intern over that, you know, I mean, it's just crazy to me. And since the Seattle PD had already labeled this a suicide from the jump, because they walked in there and were like suicide and then they just were like let's go to lunch it was probably going to be tough for this like little dude on the totem pole to disagree with these you know veteran police officers and homicide

detectives that were like that were like this is a suicide right so and especially like I said given the profile of this case as well he just there was too much that he was he was being influenced by also the lead detective on Kurt's case was one of his

closest friends and so was Courtney Love. That's weird. Yeah. And, but he dabbled in band promotion. Interesting. He actually promoted shows from Nirvana at one point. What? Yeah. Isn't that considered like a conflict of interest? I just, I don't know. Like, I feel like that is a little weird. I would think so for sure. It's like if you get an autopsy of someone that you're like best friends with, like, shouldn't you opt out of that? I don't know. Definitely. Well, they did opt out of it. Yeah, that's true. Well, and there are some reports that say not only was he friends with Courtney Love

but he had a weird infatuation with Courtney Love. Which I don't understand. It's fine. So if he had a weird infatuation with Courtney Love or if he even had a stronger relationship with Courtney Love, that could point to him wanting to push this case in Courtney Love's favor.

Yeah. Just saying. Not saying he did. And get her all that money. Just saying he could. Now since the cops had already labeled this a suicide from the jump like I said, obviously this was going to cloud all judgment when it came to actually investigating this case and seen as anything other than a suicide. In fact, according to Vernon J. Geberth, a retired lieutenant commander of the NYC Police Department, this is kind of a proven phenomenon. Like, it happens. He wrote a standard

textbook on crime scene protocol, and in it, he cites dozens of examples of murders that were staged as suicides and went totally undetected and underinvestigated because of lazy police work. Right. And this guy's a lieutenant commander, retired. Like, he was a police officer. He was like, I know how this shit goes. He's not being a dick and just being like, yeah, cops are lazy. He was like, I was a cop.

I was a lieutenant commander. I know how this goes. Right. And it is a thing that happens. So he said, quote, I have personally investigated many such cases. And the truth of the matter is that initially the cases did look. like suicides. The investigator cannot assume anything as a professional law enforcement officer. He said when they do that, everything goes to hell. And he even admitted, quote, without a doubt,

investigators take shortcuts when they hear the word suicide. Oh, man. So he's literally saying, like, these cops could have gone in there and just been like, all right, let's just, let's snip some ends here. Let's just get this done because obviously this guy just blew his head off. Bye. Like, we don't have to worry about it. But if you actually looked into it, you would realize it's not even possible. Which is what we're going to do. What we're doing right now. So let's move on to Tom Grant.

My boy. I'm not going to go into super detail about Tom Grant. I'm going to leave that to Ash. You're welcome. But I'm just going to give you a couple little things that we're like, huh. So Tom Grant is the private investigator that Courtney hired to, quote, find her husband. Low key the biggest mistake she ever made. This was, and doing heroin while pregnant.

Yeah, huge mistake. That was a pretty big mistake. Big mistake. Yeah. Huge. Huge. I love saying that. And this was after Kurt had, you know,

escaped Exodus Rehab Center. Right. When he went, quote, missing. And that's who she hired to try to, quote, find him. Like, he wasn't missing. He just didn't want to talk to you, Courtney. He just went home. But he was also a former detective in the L.A.

County Sheriff's Department. So just to give his little background credentials, he's not just some crazy that's like, I'm a private ah. And his record is, like, the cleanest. Yeah. Like his record. as a police then. Yeah, like he's, he's no joke. So, Grant already had doubts about Courtney

because when Courtney pretended to be Kurt's mom to call the missing persons report in, alleging he was suicidal, which was so fucked up. He saw that as a diversion to make sure Kurt was immediately painted as such. In the media. Which is exactly what happened. Literally. Because obviously, if his mom is calling and saying, my son is missing, and I know he's suicidal. And I know he has a shotgun. Yeah. You're going to believe mom when he says, my son is suicidal. And she knew that. But mom didn't say that. So Grant already was like, this is weird.

So at one point, Grant went on the Tom Lakers radio show, and he flat out, it said, with no punches pulled, that he thinks Courtney Love and Michael Callie DeWitt, which we talked about. Yeah, and we mentioned him in the last episode. He's the junkie live-in nanny, who was also Courtney's ex. Good. Super awesome person to pick as a nanny. He was also definitely infatuated with her still. 100%. He believed that Courtney and Callie DeWitt were involved in some way in the conspiracy to kill Kurt.

He didn't say they held the gun. He didn't say they pulled the trigger. He just said, they know something. I want to know who did. Now, how did love respond to this? I mean, you would think he's saying this accusation. She would go be pissed off. Yeah.

In response to it, she just offered him more work as like, more private investigation jobs. Which is like obviously you're trying, it's hush money. Yeah. And he literally said he was like, this was hush money. Right.

Because if she went nuts, she knows I'm investigating. I know what's like I have. I'm on the right trail. Mm-hmm. And so she doesn't want to piss me off. Right. Because she wants to hold,

it's like you keep your enemies closer. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. She's unfortunately kind of smart. She's, you know what she is? She's that kind of, she's that diabolical. Yeah, tricky. cunning, like, you know, she's that that kind of smart that can go really good or go really bad.

And you choose which way you're going to take it. And she clearly took it one way. So let's move on to the gun now, because I did a lot of research about this gun, guys. Yeah, she did. The gun was a Remington M11 20-gauge shotgun. The shotgun wasn't examined by the Seattle PD until a full month after his death on May 6, 1994. Which is insanely ridiculous. Like what? And which proves that they went in there, went suicide, and threw that gun in evidence storage and we're like, boom, not going to touch that again.

Well, when they did finally get the fuck around to it, there was supposedly only smudged fingerprints that were completely unidentifiable. Which, that doesn't make any sense. So it seemed like someone had attempted to wipe it clean. But how did that happen if Kurt had already shot the gun into his mouth? So I have a theory. What is your theory? think is Kurt was like levitating above right after he killed himself and he was like, wait a second.

Whoa. I got to fuck this up a little bit. Yeah. I got to stir up the pot. I'm going to wipe that halfway. Only halfway. Just to throw people off. That's what I think happened.

I think that's what happened. Or he did shoot himself in the mouth with the shotgun. And then, so that happened. Sure. But then he was like, oh, hold on. I'm just going to wipe this gun down real quick. and then he laid down and died. Oh, yeah.

No, I think that's it. That makes a lot of sense. Especially, I think it was after he impaled himself because the shotgun was like way too long. Because it wouldn't have even fit in his mouth anyways. So after he had impaled it through the back of his skull, he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he just pulled it out real quick.

It was like, wipe, wipe, wipe. Then he died. Exactly. Yeah, that's what happened. Except not at all. Makes a lot of sense. No, it doesn't. And the thing is, there should have been at least one of Kurt's fingerprints on that gun.

At least one. It was his gun, and they're telling me that he shot himself with it. So I have questions. And it's not like he shot himself while being like, where, where, where, where, and like moving his hand all around the barrel. That doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't. None of it does. No.

Well, in the original police report, they also said that there was evidence on Kurt's hands that proved he had discharged the weapon himself. So to further prove this. Like GSR, you know, CSI, all that shit. Gun something residue. Right? And yeah, exactly. Gun shot residue. Yes.

Wow. The fact that I couldn't figure out shot. Gun something residue does make sense. Oh my God. Oh my God. It does. Now, two full years after this police report came out,

the Seattle PD admitted that this was actually just bullshit that was putting the report by a rookie cop on the scene. Are you kidding? So they literally lied about it on the original police report to point this in suicide's directions.

That guy's a dick. So it's like if that doesn't make you question. Right. Whether this was a sane investigation or not, I don't know what will. I'm not saying that proves definitively. I'm just saying that should make you go, hmm. Things that make you go, hmm.

And fingerprints on a gun will last. So this just doesn't, none of it makes any kind of sense. Stupid. The fact that there were no legible prints and only smudged prints on that gun heavily points in the direction of somebody wiping it down. Murder. Now, let's move over to the suicide note. And I say suicide note with big, giant air quotes.

Quote, quote, quote, quote, suicide note. Hashtag not a suicide note forgery. Exactly. It was bonkers. The last bit was completely different handwriting and had a completely different tone to it as well. when I say different handwriting I mean this literally look

like you don't look at it and go oh that looks a little different at the end you're like nope maybe a 10 year old child wrote that last bit literally a 4 year old could look at this note and be like oh that's two different writings it's completely different writing and the tone shifts completely the rest of the note mentions Courtney

how many times none I was like a lot I thought you meant that end no the first part of the note mentions Courtney, zero times. And it's nothing about suicide. It's all seemingly about quitting music or quitting Nirvana. And it was confirmed that Nirvana was breaking up at this time. I'll get into that a little later. Exactly. And so basically what it said, the addition at the end that conveniently talked about Courtney and made it more of a suicide note said, quote, Francis and Courtney, I'll be at your altar. Please keep going Courtney for Francis for her life,

which will be so much happier without me. I love you. I love you. But guess what? He didn't love her. He was about to fucking divorce her, and he was trying to write her out of the will. So not only does it look ridiculous,

because the handwriting is bonkers, but it also doesn't make any sense. It's not like he's rambling this weird thing. He's saying very coherent things. Well, excuse me, well, excuse me, quote, the person who wrote that is saying very coherent things. And because it's so sloppy looking, it almost looks like somebody who doesn't know,

how to write like him and is trying to. Just saying. Now, the couple's lawyer, so Kurt and Courtney's lawyer, Rosemary Carroll. I was just going to say Ash knows in the name. Talk to Tom Grant herself, and she told him that Kurt was planning to divorce Courtney. She knew that. She had discussed it with him. She then urged Tom to investigate the death more. She said, the reasoning, and this is why I bring this up because it ties into the note. So she admitted that she found samples of Courtney Love practicing someone else's handwriting and it was like found in her backpack. Yeah. We'll post that sheet too because there's a picture of it.

It's, I don't know how you explain that way. Why would you ever be doing that? And what it was was like there was notes taken out of Kurt's like writing. Yes, yes, yes. And that were clearly like had been traced. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're right.

That was part of it. And she would underline like certain letters when it, like she'd do the letter over and over and the one that she looked most like how she wanted it to look. She would underline it. Yeah. Like, she was, that's bizarre. And what is weird is most of the letters that she was practicing are the letters that were used to spell out words in the end of the suicide note.

What a coincidence. So weird. Man. Weird. So weird. Stupid idiot. If that wasn't enough, the lawyer also found a memo that Courtney had written to herself that said, get arrested.

And do you know what's actually funny? it's not funny at all but if you watch the documentary curt and Courtney on it's on Netflix right now oh yeah um Courtney wrote memos for everything oh yeah before she got famous she wrote like her ex-boyfriend I think is on the I didn't get super far into it but her ex-boyfriend is on it and he like has some old diaries and like notes and stuff of hers and one of them is like become best friends with um Michael State Michael is that what I was yeah which is actually hilarious because she did that's and it was like get famous make make friends with this person do this and she did all of it.

Man, she was like vision boarding. Literally. Like early. She was no to vision boarding. She was vision boarding before Pinterest was vision boarding. That's crazy. Well, it turns out that apparently she's really good at that vision boarding thing because she did get arrested.

And hospitalized. She got arrested after calling Tom Grant to, quote, find her missing husband when he escaped from rehab. She was arrested for drug possession and having a doctor's prescription pad in her hotel room. And what didn't you know? That's the perfect alibi. That's so weird. To be like, I didn't kill him. I was in jail. Ask these cops. Do you think she said it just like that? I think she literally, ask these cops. I was in jail. I was in jail. How dare you? Ask these fine policemen. Ask these fine men of the law. I think it sounded more like this. I was a mess. I was in jail. I was a police mom.

I was that guy over there. It was a bad. That was verbatim what happened. That's actually, Courtney Love is with us tonight. Now, back to the gun because I couldn't get past this gun, guys. I just could not. This part, everybody just sit down, okay? Yes.

This part's fucking wild. Sit tight, because I want someone explaining this to me how this goes any other way but murder. Hold on to your butts. Hold on to those butts. So the shotgun itself makes it really tough. to imagine suicide. This particular gun is a long gun. From what I could find, the barrel is about 28 inches long,

and the full gun is about 50 inches long altogether. That's fucking long. Yeah. Kurt was 5'9. This makes him 69 inches long. That means that the gun is over 70% of his full height. How the hell could he have sat down, as the medical examiner's notes say, put the butt of the gun between his sneaker-clad feet,

place the end of the barrel into his mouth, and pulled the trigger with his thumb. He couldn't. He couldn't. You know why? The end of the fucking barrel would be well over his head in that position. So he would have to literally like impale his own head with the fucking shotgun. Which didn't happen.

Which wouldn't make any sense anyways because then you shoot it out and it would just go boom. You know, once you impale yourself with it. Standing also doesn't make sense because a lot of people were like, okay, maybe they had that wrong. Maybe he was standing with the guy. and he stood over the gun, shot himself, and he fell backwards into that position. But guess what? You're wrong if you think that. And you know what? It's like, okay. Okay. I see your point, sir. I get it. I mean, we're devil's advocating. I get it. Didn't happen, though. But you know what? There's newly released crime scene photos that make that

impossible. Impossible. These newly released crime scene photos show his feet in the areas around his feet. There's absolutely no blood anywhere in any of these photos. If he was seen, standing and shot himself in the mouth with the shotgun. Blood would have been pouring out of his face onto the floor by all over his feet. Because gravity. I mean, that shit would have been all over his sneakers. It would have been splattering everywhere. His sneakers are clean. There's not a drop of blood on them. Nope. So it doesn't make sense. No sense. And if you've, I mean, think about it. When you get a head injury or like a mouth injury knows anything in your skull area.

You bleed so much from your head. I mean, that's just, that's just fact. Shooting yourself in the mouth with a shotgun is going to produce a river of blood to come out of every orifice in your face. Certainly. So it just, it just doesn't make sense. Nope. Now, the spent casing from the shotgun is questioned a lot as well. And there's a good reason for that.

Mm-hmm. When Kurt supposedly shot himself with this particular gun, the shell casing would have flown out to his, right because that's where the opening was for the shell to go into. So they eject out that way. But the shell casing to land where it actually did, which was on Kurt's left side, the gun would have had to have been turned 180 degrees, meaning in someone else's hands. Duh. Now the police tried to explain this away, shockingly, by saying that the recoil of the shotgun was just so intense that it just flip the gun in the opposite direction, so the spent casing makes sense. Now, okay. Okay. Okay. Sure. All right. No. Except this is wrong. Wrong again.

Because Cobain had deliberately purchased a low power 20-gauge shotgun. Because he didn't want to just go out and kill people or anything. He wanted to deter people from coming into his home. Right. So his main thing was he was like, I just want to scare people with this gun and I want to just, you know, wave it around in intruders. Like, I don't want to actually shoot someone. Right. The shotgun was known to have a very low recoil. Mm-hmm.

And was actually so underpowered that even though it had gone off in Kurt's mouth, the shot didn't exit his head. Which is wild. That's how low-powered this was. So it's like, that would not have a kickback or a recoil that would flip the gun in a totally different direction in his hand. Right. Now, moving on from the gun. Let's talk about the heroin.

So even if he had somehow shape shifted to get that gun into his mouth and then somehow shot himself in the mouth with the shotgun while standing over it or laying down doing something crazy if magic occurred in that greenhouse that day. And he somehow produced absolutely no blood while standing over a gun and shooting himself in the face. There's still an issue here. There was something like three times the lethal limit of heroin slash valet. like a cocktail in Kurt's body. Now I'm just going to give a little caveat to that. Take it with a little bit of a grain of salt because that number is not 100% confirmed because the autopsy report has never been fully released. So from what I've gathered, that is what he had in his system, three times the lethal amount. That's what is reported everywhere. It was reported in the original

reports. So that's what everybody's going off of. Report. Report. Now, this should have incapacitated him pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. A Canadian chemist named Roger Lewis gathered together dozens of toxicology studies regarding drug overdoses to try and find comparable cases at one point, because people have been trying to do this everywhere. People are trying to figure out how the hell this dude with that much heroin in his system was able to do anything.

Never mind all that he supposedly did. Yeah. So of the 1,526 heroin deaths that this guy. I looked at. Only 26 had drug levels as high as Kurt, and all of them either died instantly or were immediately incapacitated. And all of those ones were found with the syringes still in their bodies because they didn't even have time to remove the syringe. That's how quickly they were incapacitated. They couldn't even take the syringe out. They just, done. So what, like, what? So this guy, There is not one case out there that makes sense that that would show you that this can happen.

Right. That what, which I'm going to get in all he was supposedly did after he adopted himself. But in 2014, the Seattle police confirmed that Cobain had indeed taken a huge lethal overdose. But they were saying, because of course they have an answer for everything here. They argued that his tolerance levels were just so high that he was able to remain conscious long enough to shoot himself. False. This doesn't make any. any fucking sense because looking at that other study, this would literally make Kurt a marvel

of medicine. Like he would be a superhuman that we have never encountered in any medical study ever. Which he was a superhuman that we've never gotten. But I don't think he's a medical marvel. One thing Kirk Cobain is not is a medical marvel. I can say that with 100% certainty. So that doesn't make sense. But we're going to stay on the heroin for one more minute here. Because let's get super sciencey about heroin. for a moment. Yay. Yeah? Yeah, everybody? Remember last week and I was like, isn't heroin cheap?

Or no, I said, isn't it expensive? Somebody was like, no. No. And we were like, we know things. And I was like, drugs. Drugs, we know them. I did dare. Well, at the molecular level. Yes, we're going to the molecular level. What is that even mean?

Heroin has three active metabolites. Morphine, a compound called three diacetylamorphine, which we're going to call three maim. Three ma'am. And six monoacetylamorphine. We're going to call that mom? Six ma'am. Six ma'am has been touted as being the initial cause of the feelings that users get upon injecting heroin.

Heroin metabolizes into six ma'am very quickly upon entering somebody's system. And it is this metabolite, six ma'am, that actually crosses the blood brain barrier and actually heroin in its full capacity really only enters the blood brain barrier in small amounts. Got it. So it's this metabolite, this six-ma'am. In fact, what a study by Yorg Morland was a researcher from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health and a professor found that when they studied the breakdown of heroin in the human body, they said after 30 minutes, 6-MAM was the predominant substance in the blood and the

brain of the heroin user. Now, what this substance does is it creates a really sharp increase in the molecule dope dopamine in the brain. Mm-hmm. And that's why heroin users feel so fucking good for a period of time. Like that's what they all talk about that, like euphoric. Dopamine will do that for you. Uh-huh.

That's what Six-Ma'am does. After about an hour, the Sixtham converts into morphine. And this will stay around for hours. Morphine is no fucking joke. This shit would have definitely caused some kind of incapacitation, regardless of how much heroin Kurt had used in the past. One time I had to be on morphine. Hey, there you go.

I hate it. All right, Kurt. I was like, never give me that shit again. Don't do it. Now, instead of falling into a coma or just passing the fuck out, somehow Kurt had the wherewithal and the ability to roll down his sleeves after injecting heroin with all we know now. Put his drug paraphernalia away in the cigar box found next to him. Neatly lay two towels on the floor, anticipating where his head would land.

That's interesting. And then lie down, fiddle with the positioning of the shotgun between his legs, and then pull the trigger effectively. That was already way too past his head. Way too past his head. And then there's just the weirdness of that decision, like, in general. Because heroin users don't kill themselves. Exactly. With guns.

So Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of America's, like, most known and most senior forensic pathologists, like, shout out to Vincent DeMio. I'm actually pretty sure he's on soaked in bleach, but I could be gone out. go. He probably is. Oh, I know Dr. Cyril Wecht, I think his name is. Okay, okay. I might be saying his name wrong and I apologize. Dr. Cyril is the former president of the American Academy of Forensic Science. He studied the Kurt Cobain case for 20 years. They have both said, and I quote, no study I know of has correlated the use of heroin with suicide. In fact, DiMaio said, quote, I cannot think of a case where I've had someone inject himself with a huge amount of heroin and then proceed to kill himself. It just doesn't make any sense.

Why would he shoot himself before the drug had had chance to even take effect? So basically, if he managed to stay conscious after being a fucking medical marvel, why would he choose that moment of the greatest high of his life to kill himself? He wouldn't because he didn't kill himself. The whole point of heroin is apparently that you feel this like euphoria, that that's why people keep going back. They just keep chasing that feeling. he didn't sit around for hours after injecting himself and then get to that like shit stage of heroin.

He supposedly did this immediately after injecting it, where he was feeling the best. He was feeling the best. That's not when you kill yourself is when you're feeling the best. I will go out on a limb and say that. I just feel like you don't do it when you're feeling the greatest high of your life. Context clues. Right? Yes.

So reports also said that he barrack. He barricaded himself into the locked greenhouse. So how was anyone else in there with him and able to lock the door behind them? Well, it was a push button lock. But they didn't mention that. They just said he barricaded himself in there. No one could have. Which is untrue.

Yeah, people said he was barricaded in, so no one could have been in there and actually left and then locked it because it was, it just doesn't make sense. But again, it was a push button lock. You know the kind you can fucking push and then close the door behind you as you leave. next that means nothing now I'm just going to point out two other weird things that I'm sure Ash can probably give us answers for and we'll touch upon

Michael Callie DeWitt was in the home when Cobain went missing interesting and someone used Cobain's credit card while he was already dead yeah that's interesting he used the credit card to purchase the plane ticket after busting out of Exodus, and then it was used all the way until his body was discovered. And they've never been able to find what that was. Courtney claimed to have shut off his credit cards. I actually don't have any explanation for that. I don't think anybody does.

I looked up one, but there is not. I know. I shouldn't have said you would know that because I'm like, I don't know. Because in reality, I've read like, no one knows that. And I'm like, Ash will know. Ash is a marvel. Ash is the only one who has this information, breaking news. So there are a few things that I'll get a little more, like, you touched upon,

but I will get further into. Awesome. But first, I just want to say, by all accounts, Courtney was a super domineering, controlling woman. I'm shocked. From the start, literally the only thing she wanted to do was be famous. Like, she wanted to be famous. She wanted to have money.

But she felt like she needed to be connected to a man to get as famous as she was. I mean, society, I get it. For sure. But like, girl. Well, also, people thought that Courtney was going to be more famous than her. Yeah. Which I can't wrap my brain around. Which she did, too.

Yeah. I think they both believe that. She was wrong. She was very wrong. She was wrong. She was wrong, because Kurt's the best spy. She's just infamous now. It just wasn't the case. Exactly. It wasn't the case that she was more famous. No. So Rosemary Carroll, who we briefly touched upon earlier, was Kurt and Courtney's lawyer. And like we mentioned last week, Kurt had asked her to remove Courtney from his will. Rosemary Carroll also told Tom Grant that Courtney had told her to find and hire the meanest, most vicious divorce lawyer that she could find. That sounds wholesome.

Yeah. She was in love with Kurt. Yeah. They were gonna, like, totally rock it out till then. They were just gonna rock until the end. Motive. Next. Tom Grant felt from day one that he, this, like, from day one that he was hired, that

Courtney Love was lying to him. The entire time he dealt with her, he was like, yeah, I'm gonna document the fuck out of this because I know she's lying. Which is so smart. It shows how smart he is. He was like, I'm gonna make sure this is on tape. And it all is. And you guys should all, I know, I have.

I've mentioned the Kurt and Courtney documentary. It's like Kurt and Courtney on Netflix. But you should watch the HBO documentary soaked in bleach because it's fucking awesome. And there's like a ton of tapes of Courtney that if you're not sold by our podcast, you should definitely be sold when you hear them. Yeah. When you hear her actual voice saying these things. And Tom Grant has a website where he has a lot of the recordings too.

I can't remember the website right now, but I'll post it when we post the photos for this episode. Right. So she contacted Tom Grant on the basis that Kurt had escaped rehab and he was suicidal and she knew that he had a shotgun. But her first thought was to cancel his credit cards. That was the first thing she's told Tom that she did. She said he's suicidal. I know he has a shotgun and I canceled his credit card. Why would you cancel his credit?

Like that doesn't make any sense. I can tell you if my husband went missing, the first thing I would do would definitely not be thinking about his credit cards at all. Because if you think he's suicidal, you think he's going to kill himself. So why are you worried that he's going to spend any money? Because he's probably not because he probably is going to kill himself. Exactly. And if you were actually worried that he was like missing, missing, you would want him to have a method of getting un-missing. So it's like maybe let him keep those credit cards.

I don't know. So that happened. Seems on. She was super, super pushy about the fact that he was suicidal. She made sure anyone who listened knew that Kurt was suicidal. But only after he died. right? Like people said she never mentioned it until he died. Until he died or in the whole time that Tom Grant was looking for. Yeah. Like until he was missing. Excuse me. Yeah. She also brought up the topic of

divorce pretty much every single time she spoke with Tom Grant. Normal. She knew that he said she knew Kurt was leaving her. And then she started talking about custody battles and how Kurt wouldn't stand a chance against her. Oh, which actually isn't true because remember that time when she did heroin while pregnant. Oh yeah, that time. Yeah. Um, Courtney also brought up the idea that Kurt was having an affair with her bass player, actually. Whoa. Or his drug dealer named Caitlin. I couldn't find out who Caitlin won.

Just Caitlin. Caitlin. But she knew his every single move. And she was super jealous. And she mentioned this to Tom Grant. He's like, what the fuck does it have to do with me? He's like, what? She was pissed when he pulled out of Lollapalooza, saying that she had first been offered the gig,

and she gave it all up so that he could have it. She felt like Nirvana should have it. Like none of this is pertinent to the current situation. No, not at all. She then told Tom Grant that she planted a story in the press saying that she was hospitalized for a nervous breakdown and wanted his advice whether to confirm it or not when the press contacted her for comment. What?

Which is interesting because she also wrote that memo of get arrested. Ah. But she already in the back of her mind was like, I'm going to plant the story in the press. So she had multiple alibis. Whoa. Multiple alibis. I didn't even know. Yep.

She felt that one, it would make fans feel sympathy for her. And two, sell records because she had one coming out in about a week. How shitty of a person do you have to be to be like, I want to manipulate the entire world into feeling bad for me? Yeah. Like, fuck off. Go fuck yourself. Personally, I think she wanted to manipulate fans into thinking that she was such a mess over Kurt being missing. Yep.

Again, planting the idea in everyone's mind that he was suicidal. Yep. And like I said, it gave her an alibi. for when he was founded. So then we get to the missing persons report, which we quickly mentioned. I guess I can just reiterate to you. It went out in the media that Kurt's mother had filed the missing person's report, and she considered him to be suicidal and in the possession of a shotgun,

which again just plants the idea that he was suicidal in the minds of his fans. It's just reiterating and reiterating. And she put it, she literally lied on a police report. Like you should be arrested for that anyways. That's totally fine. She signed it, his mom's name, 1D. Um, O'Connell. I don't remember. Wendy. Oh, cool. Yeah. Like, um, you lied. That's cool. That's fraudulent, but it's okay, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, she's giving Tom Grant all this information about, like, where he could be and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, yeah, I feel like it would be a good idea for me to put surveillance. Surveillance on the Seattle house. And she insisted that he wouldn't be there. No, Callie's there. Callie's looking out. Because the entire. The entire. time that Kurt was supposedly missing, Callie was staying at the Seattle house.

Huh. Waiting for a sign of Kurt. Oh, just waiting. Yeah, just waiting. Just waiting. She told Tom he wouldn't be there and that he liked to hang out in fancy hotels. And he used the name Simon Ritchie or Bill Bailey to check in. Did you know what Bill Bailey is from, by the way?

No, it doesn't. A quick side note. I guess that's the name that, is that, it's either Axel Rose's real name. Oh, really? Or it's the name he uses. And they used to have like some weird feud, I guess. Oh. So he would use that name just to be a dick.

That's amazing. I fucking love Kirkobane so much. That is funny. So she said that he would say that, check in under those names. So Tom called like all these fancy ass hotels in the Seattle area and didn't find anything. Because didn't he not even like, no. His friend Dylan Carlson, who Tom was like he was helping quote unquote Tom. Oh yeah.

And Dylan's the guy who bought him the shotgun. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Which I'm going to get into Dylan later because I have my theories. Oh, good. When he talked to Dylan, Dylan was like, no, we fucking hate fancy hotels. Like, Kurt.

That is everything Kurt hates. I was going to say, it was not, like, totally against what he stands for. Right. So he showed him, like, all the motels that they would stay at. Not hotels. No, motels. Holiday in we at the hotel. Anyways.

And they were on the Aurora Strip, which is, like, I guess not a nice area of Seattle. So then Tom started to call those. motels. And he did find one Bill Bailey staying at a motel. But it was a dead end. It never worked out. So when Tom went back to Courtney and was like, yeah, none of these leads are working out. He's not in any motels. I really think that we should put surveillance on the Seattle House. She again said it was a waste of time. Callie was there. And he was going to let her know if somebody showed up. And she also, so at first she told Tom that Callie was the best liar. She had to be. ever met. So he was like, why would you then trust him to tell you, like, why would you leave him

in charge of telling you when Kurt showed up? Exactly. Also, why would you ever leave him in charge of your child? That's the thing that's killing me. It's like this literal, like, drug addict who you can't, who you just said as like one of the greatest liars you've ever met, you're leaving with your baby. With your like infant. Like what? Yeah, exactly. So finally, Tom was like, yeah, Courtney, like, fuck you. I think it's really time to bring the Seattle, the investigation to Seattle. So it was like, around April 6th and that's when Courtney told him to talk to Dylan Carlson. Dylan insisted that Kurt was in no way suicidal and he then called Tom Grant, Dylan called Tom Grant and said that

Courtney had called him saying she was in the hospital and had been arrested but that she was okay and they should go to the house to check in this like hidden compartment for the shotgun because that's where it would be. So this is when she got arrested. This is all rolling out so perfectly. Yeah. So when they got there to the Seattle house. Dylan didn't point, it was like really dark and rainy, so Tom didn't notice the greenhouse. So because it, the greenhouse wasn't like a greenhouse. It was a yeah, it was literally like a broom closet on the top of, um, the garage. Yeah, it was just like it looked like a green house. And you wouldn't notice it if you didn't know it was there. Yeah, it probably just looked like part of the garage. Yeah, and especially if it's dark. Right. And it was

dark when they went. So he didn't notice the greenhouse. And Dylan didn't say anything about the greenhouse the night they went there. So when they got there on the stairs, they found a note that was written by Cali. It was from Cali to Kurt saying, Kurt, I can't believe you got into this house without me noticing. You're an asshole for doing this to Courtney. Call her and tell her you're okay. And it was like, it said like a little bit more, but it was like very like insincere and like, it's very staged. It was very staged. And they found it on the stage. And they found it on the stage. Bears. Yeah. And so it was like, Kurt got into the house. So it literally set it up for Kurt to walk into the house. Yeah. Callie wasn't there. He had left. I didn't even know. Yeah. And I'm saying it here. So everyone knows I didn't even know you came into the house.

Exactly. Wow. That's like really heavy handed. Yeah. It's insane. So Tom and Rosemary Carroll, who was the lawyer, like we've mentioned, thought the note was super weird. And Rosemary Carroll said it was like, Cali. he already knew that Kurt was dead when he wrote it. Yep, 100%. Meaning the note was there to prove an alibi that Kurt had been there, one, and two, to throw Tom Grant off. Because if Kurt was there and he wasn't anymore, where was he? Yeah, then you're going to leave. Also, they had been to the house the night before and the note wasn't there the night before. So it had been there like that morning or something. And they checked the secret compartment that Courtney had mentioned and it wasn't there.

Of course not. Because Kurt was laying dead in the green room as they were there. Unfortunately. Oh, that's awful. Yeah, it's horrific. That really is awful. You searched the whole house, but you don't search. Like, he knew about the green room.

Yeah, like he knew that existed. Right. If you were searching the whole house for your friend who's missing, you're going to search the whole house. Exactly. So the next morning, Kurt's body was found in that exact house in the green room, or the greenhouse, whatever they call it, which was a little room, like I said, above the garage, that no one had even told Grant to look into.

And I mean, it was Courtney's fucking house. She knew. Yeah. Like, they all knew that room was there. And if you're that alarmed and you can't find your husband, you're going to check every single inch of that house. Oh, yeah. And you're going to tell your private investigator to check every inch. Yes.

I don't care. Like, check the closet. Check behind shades. Like, I'd literally be like, check under lampshades for him. He could be under the couch. He could be under there. Like, find him. Yeah.

So, so Tom Grant was there. Like, he rushed over. morning that he found out that Kurt was dead. And he like pushed through everybody and went to talk to the police. And he told the police on the scene that he had been hired by Courtney Love to track down Kurt and that he had been in the house the previous night and was told that no one had time to talk to him and to call the station later. What? And he literally said he was like if he was a police officer, he was like, if I was in charge of that investigation and a man came to me and said, I was in the house that night, I would handcuff him and, like, not let him get away at all. He's admitting he was at the

scene of the crime. Right. You're at the scene of the crime and I don't have time to, like, I don't have time to talk to you. No. So, um, I don't have time to talk to you. Important eyewitness was on the scene. Yeah. And so he went to the station later, but they wouldn't listen to anything. He had to say that. Like, everything he said they had an answer for. Wow. And I, like, if the police were actually treating lists like a homicide investigation, which they weren't the second they walked in or they treated it like a suicide, they would have wanted to speak to somebody who was in house. Of course. Of course they would have. And they also just recently developed photographs from the scene. Before that, a lot of the photographs from the scene were not developed. So they were just taken as like,

oh, well, we're here. We have the camera. And when they were questioned about it, they said that they didn't develop photographs from suicide scenes. And that's not true. Which is not, and which literally not true and also not standard protocol no matter what you know what you know up the photos yeah it's evidence and they also ruled it to be a suicide i don't know if we mentioned this before but they ruled it to be a suicide before ever getting the forensic of fingerprints or toxic toxicology reports or anything that's crazy to me they ruled they ruled the death the next day yeah the next day they said they did the autopsy that day but he you're right he didn't wait for talk screens nothing and that is wait for anything and that is

not standard. They didn't swipe the house for prints. They didn't do anything. No. And Courtney told the media that Kurt had written a suicide note to her before that said in part, quote, I can't live like this anymore. It's not fun for me. Um, but that's not in the original note. And a note saying that has never been released. And to me, that sounds like, I don't want to be married to you anymore. Yeah. If you did write that, like I'd be like this marriage is shit. Yeah. And she actually in the beginning of soaked in bleach, or at some point in Socton bleach, excuse me. She references the note to Tom and she's like, yeah, it was underneath my pillowcase.

Like, I think she said it was a note from Rome when like his quote unquote for suicide attempt. The one that doctors agreed was not a suicide attempt. What's funny about that? So she said she was like, it was under my pillows in the Seattle house. And Tom was like, that's interesting because I checked your pillows. I checked underneath the pillows. I checked underneath the mattress. I checked everywhere in your room.

and it wasn't there. And she had no explanation. Of course. She was like, no, it was. And he's like, no. She was like, Tom, it was. It was in a white manila envelope. And he was like, yeah, I want to believe you, Courtney, but I don't.

But like my two eyeballs? Didn't see it. Say no. It's not a thing. Yeah. So like we mentioned before, Rosemary Carroll was actually working pretty closely with Tom, with Tom Grant. And then all the sudden, after she gave him the backpack that had the,

the handwriting samples. The handwriting samples. She wasn't interested in talking to him anymore. And there's a phone conversation where they're in the middle of talking about that. Oh, I hear about that. And she goes, Tom, is this being recorded? And he said, yeah, I record all my calls. And she all of a sudden shuts up and won't talk about it anymore. Oh, my God. And then Courtney calls him and she's like, or so he said, he starts to send Rosemary Carol all these letters like, you know, like I know you know more

than you're saying. And like there's, there's all these like copycat suicides. of fans. And like you have, you could stop this if we prove that this wasn't a suicide. And she wouldn't answer him at all. She wouldn't respond. Oh, Rosemary. And then Courtney called Tom and was like, you're really scary Rosemary. Also, I paid her off. So stop. Yeah, exactly. And so the other thing about the suicide note is a few like analysts have looked at it. And first of all, the entire beginning part is just about his music. Yeah. It's just like Nirvana was breaking up at the time. Yeah. And Because Dave Grohl confirmed it. Yeah, on the Howard Stern show, I think.

He said at the time we were breaking up. It was happening. So the entire, it's literally like over two paragraphs that are just talking about the music. And then the end is the only time he mentions anything about family, anything about Courtney, anything about Francis. And anything that even resembles a suicidal thought. Because the entire thing is not, like the whole beginning of the note is not a suicidal note. And the handwriting analysts and like the just note analysts in general, that's not a thing, but whatever. You know note analysts.

Yeah. They analyzed notes. Like this one lady was like, it was so stereotypical. It's what you would think a suicide note would be. Yeah, which is never the case. Like I, my family, like, I'm leaving. I'll see you someday again. Yeah.

Like the exactly. The cart wouldn't have fucking written it like that anyways. And wasn't there like a part in the first part where he says like my nauseous stomach? Yeah, he talks about his stomach. stomach pain was over at that point. Yeah. He did an interview that said, like, I ate a whole pizza. Yeah.

The other night. And I've never been able to do that. I feel great. Yeah, and they were like... People around him were like, he never felt better. Yeah, because he got the medicine that he needed to be treated for. So that doesn't even make sense. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all.

And just a quick and interesting theory is that some people believe Eldon, El Ducche Haute, Hoke had something to do with or some more knowledge about the death of Kirk Cobain. and he said he said that Courtney Love offered him $50,000 to kill Cobain and she said like my old man's pissing me off blow his head off

which is nice you know couple shit yeah totally and after an interview that he gave on April 19th 1997 where he spilled this information and also implicated someone named Alan he was hit by a train days later while lying drunk on the tracks I'm sorry but

days after he gave the interview, he was found dead on the train tracks. Because he apparently got drunk and laid down on them. Which he was a pretty reckless dude. But that's real reckless. But that's like cray cray. And the again, the coincidences. Yeah, that's just bananas. No one person has this many coincidences surrounding them at one time. No. I'm sorry you just don't. Like Courtney Love is not this like just this special unicorn that happens to have the worst. coincidences around her. Courtney loves own dad thinks she knows more than she says.

Yeah, that she told you a book about it. I'm dead serious. Damn. But in my opinion, Courtney knew that Kurt was leaving her. She knew she wasn't going to get nearly as much as she wanted because of their pre-up agreement. Yep. And because, again, she thought she was going to be the more famous one.

So she asked for that pre-nup. Yeah, which is so funny. Because he was making all that money. And she wasn't going to see any of it. Exactly. And because she's a selfish, arrogant, controlling piece of shit. She had Kurt mortared. She had a moitered. She had Kurt murdered, knowing that she could make it look like a suicide based on the misconstrued lyrics and statements that Kurt had made in the past.

And she didn't even need the money, but she just wanted it and Courtney got what she wanted. Yeah. Like she didn't need that money at all. It was just a matter of her being an air. I mean, she's a shit. She's a musician herself. She has a band whole. And now she has all of the royalties to Kurt's songs. the big thing. All of the estate money. All, like everything. And I'm sure she got like, like, wrongful death. I don't even know.

Yeah. But it's the songs thing that I'm like, that is like the hardest pill to swallow that she has control of all their music. Especially when they're surviving members of the band. Do you know what I mean? And they don't have that control. Especially when he literally called his lawyer and said, can you write her out of my will? And he just didn't have time to sign it before. it happened. And she probably

fucking got word that he was going to write her out of the will and was like, oh, really? I'm going to write you out of life. She didn't pull the trigger, I bet. Maybe she did. I don't know. Personally, I don't think she did. I don't believe she was there. I don't think she pulled the trigger. But I think she paid solid money to somebody that

did. And honestly, she made damn sure that she has alibis that say she wasn't there to pull the trigger. So I can say definitely she wasn't there. But I know she. She knows what happened.

And I know she has way more hands in this whole thing. She set it up. But if after all we've presented you, you think something different. We want to hear it. Totally. Because we're totally open to it. We'll listen to it. I mean, we're not, we might not agree with you.

I'm sort of open to it. I'm like a little open. I'm moderately close to it. I'll listen to it. I'll read it. She's like, listen, Courtney's going to write a fucking book just like OJ did. if I did it. If I did it.

Like maybe Courtney wrote that for him. Maybe someday we will get the full story. So maybe some deathbed someday is going to be very lucrative in this. So yeah, again, we're joking when we say we don't want to hear you theories. Yeah, we're kidding. If you guys have any more theories, by all means, throw them our way. Let us know. We all want to discuss it.

That's what it's for. That's what the Facebook group is for too. So discuss it. Let us know. We hope you dug Perkobane Part 2. We bet you did. We think you did. So we would like to thank this week's patrons.

Maybe let's thank 10 just to like really do this. Let's do it. All right. So I would like to thank our new Patreon, Shannon F. You get an A. Oh. You don't get an O. You got an A. Thanks, Shan. Thank you, Shan. I would also like to thank our new Patreon named Sarah Minks.

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Thanks. Also, Jack Slaughter. Thank you. Jack Slaughter. Slaughter. Slaughter. Way to just fit right the fuck in. Welcome.

Welcome, Jack. Thank you, Jack. Also, hey, Connor, Stephen Kaysen. Thank you. Connor, Stephen Kaysen, you are the coolest shit. I thought I was like, wow, that was really, you know what? Thanks, Connor. I just love you.

I just love you. I just love you. I just love you. I just love you. I just love you. Hey, Courtney Wilson. Hey, Courtney Wilson. Thank you.

Courtney Wilson. Girl. You just, you smell great, I think. I feel like you do. I don't know. She always takes it to a weird place. I would also like to thank Woman on Top Podcast. Women on Top Podcast, you guys are clearly awesome. Duh. Go listen to that podcast, everybody. I don't even know what it's about, but it sounds great. It's about Women on Top. I'm going to start listening to that. Thank you Women on Top Podcast. You guys rock. You are on Top. Also, I would like to thank Olivia S. McKenzie. Olivia S. McKenzie. I just, I'm speechless.

You've rendered me speechless. I'm done. I just love you. Yeah, thank you so much, Olivia. Thank you so much. I'm going to say two more because I don't know how many I've said yet. Yeah. Also, Danielle Karwowsky.

Wow. Wowsky. Wowsky. You have just blown us away. So thank you so much, Karwowsky. Also, last but not least, I would like to thank Vicky and Alec Padrotti. Vicki and Alec Padradi, thank you for doing that together. Yes, I love a team.

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If you feel so inclined Patreon.com slash morbid podcast And you could check out the lovely website That my beautiful co-host Elena So awesomely designed at Hey Hey Hey Morbid Podcast.com mind as the hey hey hey we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you start to track your rock stars every move and you say oh i have to date that guy and then you start dating

that guy and then you fall in love and you get married in pajamas and then you have a baby but you did hire it one while you were pregnant with that baby and then all of a sudden he wants to divorce you and you're like not going to happen bitch and you fucking set up his murder and you kill this shit out of him and we all know you did it Courtney thanks bye not that weird But you know what? We don't know for sure. We're just saying we think Courtney can. Don't see us.

Yeah, don't see us. Bye.