Morbid - Michele Neurauter

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

On August 28, 2017, police in Corning, NY responded to a call about “suspicious circumstances” at the home of forty-six-year-old mother of three Michele Neurauter. Upon entering the home, the scene appeared to be a fairly straightforward suicide; however, investigators were immediately suspicious that Michele Neurauter had been murdered and the scene had been staged to look like suicide. Michele’s mother, Jeanne Laundy, agreed, and she had a pretty good idea of who would have wanted to kill her daughter: Michele’s ex-husband, Lloyd Neurauter.Investigators quickly learned Michele and Lloyd Neurauter had been involved in a bitter custody battle for years, and Michele had repeatedly accused her ex-husband of trying to turn their children against her. After months of investigation, Corning detectives discovered that not only had Lloyd Neurauter succeeded in turning his children against Michele, but he had also recruited his second-oldest daughter, Karrie, to help him murder her mother.Thank you to the debonair David White for research assistance References:Kingsley, Jennifer. 2010. "Nickelodeon recognizes Corning woman's blog about parenting." Star-Gazette, June 1: 3.Moriarty, Erin. 2020. "I had to choose": Did a father brainwash his daughter to help plan her mother's murder?February 8. Accessed June 14, 2023. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michele-neurauter-murder-i-had-to-choose-did-a-father-brainwash-his-daughter-to-help-plan-to-kill-her-mother/.Murray, Jeff. 2018. "N. Brunswick man gets life, no parole, for murder." Central New Jersey Home News, December 5: A1.—. 2018. "Ex-RIT student, dad indicted in Corning slaying." Democrat and Chronicle, February 23: A2.—. 2018. "RIT student pleads not guilty to murder." Democrat and Chronicle, Janaury 27: A15.—. 2018. "DA: Murder suspect tried to bribe witness." Star-Gazette, April 13: A1.—. 2018. "Man pleads guilty to killing wife in Corning." Star-Gazette, October 13: A1.—. 2018. "Murder suspect pleads guilty." Star-Gazette, March 9: A1.—. 2018. "Two charged with murder." Star-Gazette, January 26: A1.NBC. 2019. Dateline: The Ultimatum. New York.Smith, Jeff. 2020. "Karrie Neurauter, manipulated into helping kill mother, released from prison." The Corning Leader, Janaury 30.Teurfs, Kathryne. 2020. Daughter who pleaded guilty to helping her father plan to kill her mother released from prison. February 7. Accessed June 15, 2023. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/karrie-neurauter-daughter-who-pleaded-guilty-to-helping-her-father-kill-her-mother-released-from-prison/. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Morbid. Morbid. It's Mobed. Hello, welcome to our show, everybody. Welcome. And you know what? We've been getting like this month for some weird reason in September, 2020, in case you're just joining us. Yeah. We have had a ton of new people joining the show, like listeners. So many new listeners. So hello, new listeners. Welcome. Welcome to the madness. Yeah. And if you say, started from the beginning and you got here. Kudos to you because you stuck through us recording underwater. And also us not realizing, you know, how long our intros should be. Yeah, when they were like 10 minutes and I was just talking about what I did at work that day. Yeah. Sorry. We got better, I think. So you know what? Welcome. We're glad to have you. Hope we keep you. And yeah, so we're excited about that. I don't know what it is, but it's pretty cool. I wonder if it's crime countdown. Like, people started listening to Crime Countdown. And then they were like, oh, I didn't, like, it's so weird to think of people listening to Crime Countdown first. I know. It is weird just because, like, this has been around for so long. Yeah. But if you're here from Crime Countdown, that's awesome. Welcome. And thank you for listening to both.

Yeah. And you know what? If you haven't listened to Crime Countdown yet, go listen to it. It's awesome. Oh, I love doing crime count down. It's so much fun to record. We love parka. So, yeah, so that's fun. We don't really have a whole lot of, like, craziness to go over here. I can tell a really funny story that happened last night that is kind of relevant. Oh, I want to know. I actually, I tweeted about it. So some of you listening may be like, oh, yeah, I know the story. So last night, we put the kids to bed and we suddenly, John was upstairs. I was downstairs. chairs. And suddenly I heard this huge thud. Oh, I saw your tweet. And it like shook the house, like shook the side of the house. And I was like, dude, one of the kids just fall out of bed.

That's what I assumed. So I went running. And it would have shook the house. Do you think? Well, yeah, because the house is so old. You literally drop like a pen on the floor and the whole house shakes. It's insane. And, you know, a deadweight child falling onto the floor is definitely going to like shake the living room. So I ran up there. And I was like, did you just hear that noise? And John was like, yeah, I thought it came from downstairs. And I was like, no. So I ran into the kids' rooms. They're all sound asleep. Everyone's fine. Looked around. There's nothing on the floor. Nothing has fallen. I look in every room, nothing has fallen. Remember what that happened to us that one time? And then finally we found it. But I, there was nothing. So I was like, that's weird. So I went back

in our room and I'm like, yeah, weird. And I'm telling John, like, I didn't find anything. As we're talking, something above our heads in the attic crashes onto the floor. Shut up. And both of us looked up. John was like, that was in the fucking attic. And I was like, oh, shit. So I was like, okay, what do we do? Was your heart like pumping and thumping? Well, because I'm like, oh, my God, because the other thing is, the attic door is on the side of the house where the kids' rooms are. Right. So I was like, oh, I'm going to have to kill someone today. Right. Like, that was my thought. I was like, we're going to kill someone together. I love that your first thought was like, I'm not going to,

because my first thought would be, oh, I'm going to die today. Like, that sucks. I'm really bummed doubt about it. Yours was, oh, I have to complete murder today. Like, that's, that was literally. I love the differences in our psyche because I wouldn't 100% would be like, oh, like, I should have gotten, like, a chick-fil-a today or something. You know what I mean? And I know it's problematic. Don't at me. But, like, I know my first thing was like, well, motherfucker isn't coming down those stairs to my kids' rooms. It's just not happening. So. But then how, it's like, how would they have gotten up there in the first place? They really couldn't. So it's really not. So it's like, hashtag those. in my head was like someone's in there because, you know, stranger things have happened.

So I, John immediately grabs one of my old softball bats. Incredible. And he wants to go up there by himself. Nay, sir. And I was like, no, no, I'm not letting you get murdered by some weird adequate. I was going to say, I had full confidence he could do it. But my thing was, you're not going to let him get. I don't want him to get hurt.

What if they try to take a swipy swipe at my husband? I'm going to come at them. Yeah, you're just going to get the job done. Yeah, like fuck. that. Women. Women. And I just, like, had to be up there. I couldn't just stand down there passively and, like, hope that he was fine. It just isn't my way of doing things. That's good. So I was like, I got to go up there. I got to be backup for him. So the only thing near me at the time was my horror memorabilia. Incredible. Which was a signed Friday the 13th machete. Machete. So I grabbed it.

You grabbed a machete. And just waltzed up to the stair. And I was, and I called, and I called, called to John, I'm like, I'm coming up. And he's like, why are you coming up? And you're like, well, I have a machete, so I'm coming. I got the machete. And he's like, what the actual hell? So we looked around. No one's in there. There was no animals or anything. But like a day or two before, I had brought the girls upstairs with me to look for Halloween decorations. Yeah. And of course, four-year-olds touch everything. And they're moving all the stuff. They're finding their old toys. So they're just moving shit. And they had teetered their Barbie dream camper as well as the the airplane.

No, not the airplane. It was the bassinet. Oh, bassinet. Oh, shit. I almost said it to. I literally went, but I stopped myself. So, beep, they were playing around with them. And I had put the bassinet on like, you know, on top of another box and the camper was teetering on something.

Both of them were on the ground. And it makes sense that they made the big crashing noises. Yeah. But of course, John was like, that's all well. and find, like, how did they end up on the ground? Yeah, that's the thing. There's no cool draft right now. No, there's really not, and there wasn't up there.

But all I can think of is, like, physics. They were teetering. Eventually, they were going to fall over. That's fun for you. And even if it's, honestly, if it's an old-timey ghost up there, just knocking shit over, that's fine. Yeah. I would much rather that than an actual person.

Think of just, like, me as an old-timey ghost. Like, I'd be clumsy. Yeah. I could never think of you as an old-timey ghost. You would always be the Britney bitch kind of ghost. Thank you so much for that compliment. Oh, speaking of old tiny things and how we didn't do long intros anymore, but just really quick. Yeah.

I always say how, like, I'm not going to buy antiques. I know. I bought an antique. I know. As soon as you said it, I was like, dude, you just said. I know, I literally just said it. But they're hard to not buy. We found this wicked cute little antique store.

I forget what it's called, but I'm going to have to plug it next time. It's in North Adelboro. And it's so cute. And they had, Annie was checking out. She got like all these like old matchbox cars. Oh, I love that. like start a collection, which I think is awesome. Amazing. And then she's checking out and there's all these Vogue covers, but like as paintings, like big paintings. Yeah, that's cool. And she goes, I'm literally

across the store. She goes, Ash. She's like, we got to get this. So we got that. And then I got like a little trinket box that was a telephone. That's so cute. Because it reminded me of Nanny. Oh, I love that. I hope it's not haunted and I hope it doesn't bring a demon into my home. I love that. I feel like it's too small too. Oh, yeah, that's true. But now, well, there can be tiny demons. Yeah. Oh, tiny demons. You have a tiny demon in your home now. I would rather a large demon, like, versus a tiny demon. Because tiny demon, I feel like it can be child's demon. They can get into too many places.

Yes, crevices. Crevices. So I think now that we have regaled you all with our tales of craziness the last day or so. Ghosts and antiques. Our wild lives. We are so crazy. Wild and crazy. I think we can get back into what we're here.

hear for. What do we hear for? True crime. What do we want? True crime. When do we want it? Like 10 minutes ago. All the time. So today's episode, I'm going to cover another Scottish case. You're so into Scotland lately. I know. I feel like I'm just like drawn to you, Scotland. So, hello, we're back at Scotland. Um, and this is the case of Peter Tobin. Pizza Tobin. He's a real dick, this one. I believe it. Now, the reason I got into this one was because originally I was going to cover Bible John this episode. I'm going to cover Bible John next episode actually as like a continuation. I don't even know who that is. You're going to know. I guess so. The reason that I was going to, that this kind of like all led together was because some people, including the original

investigators on this case, think that Bible John, which is an unsolved case, is Peter Tobin. So we shall see. But we're going to talk about just Peter Tobin in this episode and then we will lead into is he Bible John next episode what do you think I don't know okay I don't really I'm not sold yet maybe I need to maybe a little bit more about it but I feel like I'm not sold yet I'll have an answer on on the next episode okay cool so Peter Tobin we don't know a ton about his childhood I like couldn't find anything is that's weird was he born a long time ago uh he was born not really he was born August 27th 1946 so really not that long time ago. No. But I think he was just like a dick, so I think nobody really wants to claim him a lot.

Yeah. They're just like, they're like, yeah, he was a kid once. Right. Positive of it. He was, he was born in Johnston or Johnstone, Remfern, Renfrewshire. Remfrewshire. Renfrewshire. I'm from Renfrewfro. Are you from Renfrofoam? He was born in a place. He was the youngest of seven. It's always the youngest. That's the problem. Thank you. I'm the youngest as well. Well, actually, my spot in family, my spot in the family is so confusing. You're technically the oldest. Technically. Yeah, which is crazy. But like I'm the youngest in this family. Yeah. And I'm the youngest. Figure out our family tree. I was going to say,

have we just, we, that's like one of those little finger traps that just get you stuck. Yeah. So he was apparently a very difficult child. Okay. Same. He was not a good, no, this was a very different kind of difficult child. Okay. He was violent. Oh, no. He was like really fucked up. At the age of seven, he was sent to reform school.

Seven years old? That's how bad he was. Holy shit. Yeah. He then went to a borsal, which we remember that term from Ian Brady and Myra Hensley. Ash is shaking. I'm like, no, I do not.

I remember that term. A borsstle is like a, almost like a military style school where you send like young men that you are usually kind of like more intelligent or able to like function on a higher level. It's like a military reform school kind of thing. Good thing. My memory lasts two weeks. You were like, no, I don't know that. So he did attend a Borsal. And then he ended up in prison for forgery and burglary.

Wow, great kid. So he was really killing it, like right off, right out the gate. Like starting at seven. He was letting the whole world know what he was all about. about who I am and what I'm about. He then married, he got married for the first time in 1969 to a woman named Margaret. They met at a dance hall where he often picked up ladies at dance halls. Did he know how to do a good jig?

I'm sure, I guess he did because he was picking up ladies. All right. And the thing that really connects him to Bible John is that Bible John also picked up women at dance halls, especially the Barrowland dance hall, which was a, like a popular place. I wish the dance halls were still a thing. Let's go to a dance hall. Want to go to a dance tonight? Let's go to a dance tonight. Um, so he was 20. She was 17. Uh, she said that their marriage was horrific. Great. He was horrible and abusive. He locked her in rooms for days at a time and wouldn't let her leave the house without him. That reminds me of Kelly Ann Bates. He was real scary.

Uh, this is even worse. Just, um, fair warning, dead dog. Um, no. She's He said, quote, he got me a black Labrador puppy. No, those are my favorite. But I hadn't had Butte long. When he cut off its head while I was at the shops and threw it out the window, I found boys in the yard using the head as a football. Oh, I don't. Yeah. Oh, my God.

So that's a thing. And what's wrong with those fucking kids? I know, man. What the fuck? Real fucked up. I don't know what was happening in the water in that area. Yeah. What's up with all the fucked up children?

Don't play with dead dogs heads. Don't do it. Don't do it. So he also, now, as if this wasn't bad, their entire marriage being this awful abusive lesson in nightmare, he also raped and stabbed his wife and left her to die. But a neighbor saw blood and he ran over and rescued her. Oh, my God. This is a huge trigger warning for something he did to her. Rape, trigger warning, rape, trigger warning.

They found out later that he had inserted the knife inside of her and made it so she couldn't have kids ever again. She could never have children? Yeah, she could never have children because of it. Oh my God. What a fucking monster. He's an absolute monster. What is wrong with someone?

Well, then in the 1970s, he went to prison for burglary and theft, and that's when she was able to leave him, like divorce him. Jesus. Because she was terrified. Obviously. He literally tried to kill her. He thought he had killed her. In 1973, he married a second woman named Sylvia Jeffries.

Poor Sylvia. She said he was horrifically abusive to her as well and their dog. So he had a thing for that. It's like, don't get a dog if you don't like them. Stop getting dogs. You have a choice to get a dog. Right. Like, that is an absolute choice.

So they divorced in 1976. She divorced him. The way she left him was she literally ran away with their older child, like just packed up shit. Oh, they had a child together? They had two children together. They had shortly before the divorce, they had another baby that died at two days old because of breathing issues.

And she grabbed her older, I think it was a son and just pieced out of there. Thank God they were able to get out. Yeah. Well, and then the third wife, Kathy Wilson. These poor women. They also met at a dance hall in 1989. She was only 16 at the time and he was 40. Ew.

That's like Kelly Ann Bates again. Yeah, that's no good. They had one child together, a son named Daniel. She said about him, quote, he was all sweetness until he had me where he wanted me. Once I was pregnant, he changed and used Daniel to control me. It was always threats to kill or hurt Daniel if I left. He would even pick him up and mimic throwing him on the floor. I felt like a prisoner.

Jesus Christ. He's a literal monster. That's the thing with these people because you're like, how do they get, like how do you get into a relationship like that? I know people think that. But these people are Prince Charming. Like, it could happen to anybody. It is Prince Charming at first. When people say, like, that could never happen to me.

You're wrong. It can happen to anybody. As smart as you are. Especially these kind of dudes, they know how to do it. Like, they know how to do it. Like, my ex-boyfriend, he was not, like, physically abusive or anything like that. I definitely didn't go through that. But in the beginning, like, he was definitely emotionally and mentally abusive.

Right. And he flipped a switch. When we first met, he was like Prince Charming. Right. And that's how they get you. They get you to like think, oh, they really care about me. And look, they're paying so much attention to me. They start to separate you from your family and your friends.

And they do it slowly and methodically. And then all of a sudden you're sitting there and you're like, fuck. I don't have anyone to reach out to. And you can't get out. So it's like, that sucks. And these poor women are like married. Right. Legally bound.

I can't imagine that. Well, and to have children in that situation. Oh. Because then it's like you're not only. protecting yourself, you're protecting your child. Oh, and the need to protect your child is so, it's, it's like painful, right. How much of a need it is. So I can't even imagine what these poor women were going through. So brings us, so that was in 1989 that they got married. Bring us to 1993. Um, he lured two 14 year old girls by, and when I say lured, I mean, lured them to him and

then at knife point forced them to go into his apartment. Oh my God. Um, It was in Hampshire where his son was. Daniel was in the house. He drugged them by forcing them to take sedatives and literally forcing vodka down both their throats. He raped them both. He stabbed one several times, turned the gas on and left them to asphyxiate. You're kidding.

Both of them survived. What? And both of them described him. We're like, let me tell you what he looked like. Amazing. So he tried to hide. He went, because this is his MO. he does this shit and then he goes in hiding.

He flees. Like he gets the fuck up out of there. He had a ton of aliases, which is why they think he might be Bible John because he's just been in so many different like identities. So he tried to hide, but he was found in May 1994. So like the next year.

He was arrested and sentenced to 14 years, but he only served 10. This is the thing. I don't understand why you get so much less time for attempted murder. just because it didn't work. It's like, because you should get the same. Your plan wasn't for it to work.

Right. Like, it was a failure. Like, and it wasn't a failure like, like you did on, like, on purpose. You wanted it to work. It was an implied failure. You wanted this person to cease to exist. Right. And you just failed at it because you're a fucking loser and you can't do anything.

You should get, I don't think there should be an attempted murder charge. It really shouldn't. No. Because, yeah, if you're right. But it doesn't make any sense. It truly doesn't. Like, oh, well, you tried, but since it didn't work, lucky you. Lucky you, it didn't work, and that person's way stronger than you thought they were.

So you get less time. Great. Fuck, no. That has nothing to do with you. Because it's almost like the person who survives gets punished for being a survivor. Yes. Exactly. Why are we just realizing how fucked up this is.

I feel like I've said it before, but I feel like this time we like really like undid the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Let's like like, like. Let's write a letter to our justice. Let's just mantle the whole thing. Yeah. Let's just do it.

fucking knew that. Peace by piece. Let's actually just flee the country. So this is when Kathy was able to divorce him. Okay. So his third wife divorced him. Oh, so this was before she ran away. Exactly. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. So pretty terrible. So they, so they had both survived. He went into prison for 10 years. He was out in 2004 at the age of 58 years old. Yeah. He moved to Paisley and he was homeless because obviously, you know, what is he going to do? He doesn't deserve a He certainly doesn't. Well, in 2005, he met a woman named Cheryl McLaughlin. She was 24 years old, and her boyfriend at the time had met Peter and had to watch football with him a couple times. They were just like casual like acquaintances. He didn't really know him. He just, you know.

Yeah. And so he she kind of trusted him because like her boyfriend knew him. Right. And one day before her boyfriend was coming home, she agreed to sit and watch TV with him. Oh, no. Well, he had hidden a belt and some kind of ligature between the seats. Okay, Golden State Killer. And she happened to look and she was like, what the fuck is that? Like she was immediately like, oh, that's not normal. Which like good on her for being like, nope. So she immediately tries to leave because she's like, yeah, I'm uncomfortable. Some shit's about to go down. See you never goodbye. Listen to that gut, man. Listen to that gut. Well, as he tries to, she tries to leave, he attacked her. He pulled out a knife and cut her hand, but she survived and was able to get away. Ouch. She ended up becoming like

super depressed and like having a ton of issues from it because it was such a traumatizing experience. That's a huge trauma. Because clearly he was planning to do something. And when she found out later who he was, she was like, oh my God. He was going to kill me. Right. That was going to happen. So once this happened, he dips again.

He gets out of there. He's going to come up with a new alias now. It's crazy to me how people can like just disappear. Right. Yeah. It's wild. It's fly under the radar. So now he ends up showing up at a soup kitchen connected to a church.

This church was St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church. It was in Anderson in Glasgow, and they hired him eventually as a handyman, because he was just going to the soup kitchen for a while. Then he was like kind of helping out at the soup kitchen. Then they hired him as a handyman for the church. Okay. They hired him, and he said his name was Patrick McLaughlin. And that was a lie. Was a lie. He was Peter Tobin. That's John's favorite last name. Oh, yeah, he loves the last name, McLaughlin or McLaughlin. I think that's so funny. So, and it's funny because he's like, my name is Patrick McLaughlin. And it's like at St. Patrick's Church, very creative. Right.

Like you fuck. Did you just come up with that? He probably did. And he was like, McLaughlin. That's an easy name to just throw out here. He's like, my name is St. Patrick. My name is St. Patrick's Church. Hello.

I'm here to help. It'd be even funny if he was like, my name is Patrick St. My name is Patrick's Saint. And I am from this church. I am from the Roman Catholic Church. Can I help you? So they were like, cool, cool, cool. So later they said he was really.

helpful. A chama. They called him, quote, a godsend. Oh. Because they said he was such a good handyman. He's a Lutheran. He's a Lucifer send. He was something.

So he suddenly, I think like, very shortly after he started really like working for them, he started noticing and becoming obsessed with a 23-year-old woman who lived in the place that was connected next door to the church. Okay. Her name was Angelica or Angelica. I'm not exactly. I think it's Angelica. Okay.

Angelica Kluck, who lived, and she lived, it was like literally adjoining the church. Sure. She was a student from, I'm going to say this wrong, Skoksoe near Krakov, Krakow. Krakow? It's Krakow. It's Krakow. I was wrong. So it's Skokzo near Krakow.

And that she was Polish. Okay. So I'm sorry. I am not. So it was only six weeks after she started, after he had started working at the church and noticing Angelica. Yeah. That on September 24th, 2006, she goes missing.

And he's, like, old at this point. Yeah. So, and again, she was like a student. She was just living there, going to school, trying to make some extra money to pay for school. Just living her damn life? She was helping out the church. She attended the church.

So she goes missing. She was last seen with Patrick McLaughlin. Not good. She was helping him paint a shed. And she took that off. job again as a way to help pay her tuition. So police released Patrick's picture to the public. Uh-huh.

And five days later, they found her dead. No. She was stuffed under the floorboards of the fucking church next to the confessional. Of the church? Yep. They determined that she had been tied up, raped, beaten, and stabbed 19 times. Oh, and she was alive when she was put in the floorboards. Oh, my God, no.

Mm-hmm. And I think one of the pathologists that consulted on this case later, her name, her name is Julie. I believe I talk about her later. Julie McAdam, that's her name. She's a forensic pathologist. She actually got down in the floorboards to, like, examine her. Yeah. And she said, first of all, it was one of the most horrific things she's ever seen.

It's making me feel like I can't breathe, like picturing this. She said when she was down there, she said the feeling that you were being trapped was so overwere. was so overwhelming, even though I knew I was going to get out. So she said her, I can't imagine what she was going through, knowing she couldn't get out. Because she was bound. Right. Like, bound, gagged, wasn't able to move. And then he just put the fucking floorboard back. Was beaten about the head. Like, yeah. So she probably like suffocated and blood out. Yeah. All of the above. Yep. So it's, it's so unbelievable. Seriously. So again, people were like, yeah, we saw her with Patrick McLaughlin. That's who we saw her with last, like you needed, but he had dipped.

Right. Of course, because that's what he does. M.O. So September 30th, 2006, um, they, father Gary or Jerry Nugent was a parish priest at the St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church. And he, like, talked to the press and he said he was, quote, utterly shattered that Angelica had been found in the church and like how horrified he was. Meanwhile, this fucking priest was accused of raping upwards of 40 women and children. No. So fuck that guy. Seriously.

And this guy went on TV and was like, oh, it's just so sad. The church. And it's like, go fuck yourself. Clearly this church doesn't mean anything to you. It's just your like hunting ground. I just had to put that out there that that guy's a fucking demon. He is. So fuck him.

So Peter Tobin or Patrick McLaughlin was caught because DNA revealed that this person named Pat McLaughlin was actually Peter Tobin. That must be so confusing. Right? Because you're like, wait. Who am I actually going after? And so when they brought him in for questioning, when they finally got him, he said that he had a sexual relationship with Angelica. But it was mutually consensual.

And they were like, no. Was her murder also consensual? Like what the fuck is wrong with you? Well, and he said, I had nothing to do with her murder. Totally. Because they were like, we have your semen like on her. Right. And he was like, well, yeah.

Like, we had a sexual relationship. But I didn't kill her. No. It's like, no. They had a ton of forensic evidence against him. They were like, no. we literally have everything. Yeah, you're dumb.

DNA was found on, his DNA was found on the cloth that was stuffed in her mouth, like, gagging her. So they were like, how did that happen? Like, no. He had also thrown away his blood-soaked jeans with her blood on them, and they were traced back to him. And they were found in, like, I think they called it like a roly bin in the church. Like, you just threw it in a, like, fucking bin.

Just right there. Like an idiot. You're dumb. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad he's dumb. So in that consultant pathologist that I talked about before, Julie McAdams said when she took a look at the wounds, which when they showed the photos of them in court, several people literally ran out of the court because they were like, it was so

horrific. They said that the blows and stab wounds were so frenzied and like angry that they said there was definitely a sexual motive to this whole thing. Yeah, for sure. Well, he probably was like sexually obsessed. And I wonder if he tried to like do something and she was like no. And she like, Right. You know. Because it seemed like there was some kind of rage. Rejected his advances. Right.

So gross. So he was arrested. He was sentenced to life with a minimum of 21 years. And then what happened? Now, once this happened, criminal psychologists and like criminologists, all these people were like, this doesn't, because right now they're thinking this is his, like, first murder. Yeah. So they're like, this seems like a really intense first murder to commit it like 58 years old.

Right. Like, that's weird. And psychologists are like, no, that just doesn't line up. The only murder. Yeah, they were like, this just isn't, you have to have priors. So, of course, they were like, well, he did try to gas the 14-year-old girls after raping them and he had stabbed one. So, like, he was definitely, that had already happened. He was escalating at this point, but there had to be something that was in between these things.

You didn't just go from like that to that. And there was a long period between that, too. Exactly. So this is when Operation Anagram became a thing. Fun. Right? So bad. I love operations. It's so metal. I love it. Like Operation Anagram. It's like, yes. Let's put on our badges and get it. Let's do it. Let's put on leather coats and sunglasses. Yes. And gel our hair. Yeah. So Operation Anagram was formed to take a look at all of the various aliases that Peter Tobin had been living under his entire life. Yeah. Because they were, I mean, like a dozen or so. And they wanted to see, you know, they were going to look in his past, see if they could. connect him to other unsolved crimes or disappearances because they were like, he's definitely got

more under his belt. This is giving me like criminal minds vibes. Well, and it really is. And he's in prison and he's telling the, like, psychologists that he killed 48 people. Okay. I don't know if I believe 48. I don't know. What do you think?

I don't know. He might be near that. He's a Ruth's son of a bitch. I guess so. Well, and then he literally smiled at the psychologist and went prove it. Ew. Like, I dare you. What a little jackass.

That also gives me and Brady vibes too. I feel like he would have done that. Waiting to you. He's a dick. He's a real dick. So this is when they were like, this is when they connected him to the Bible John murders, which we'll talk about next week. Okay.

Or next episode, excuse me. And Bible John is known as the British Zodiac Killer. Oh, shit. Yeah. That's cool. That's not cool. That's not cool. That's so cool.

That's awesome. It is cool, though. So finally, they were able to connect him to a missing person's case. Yes. They connected him to the Vicki Hamilton case, which she was a 15-year-old girl. She disappeared February 10th, 1991, which is right in that. Because remember, those 14-year-old girls were 1993. So, 1991 is probably when he was starting to do this shit. Right, right. Before that. But like... Because even that first one where he, like, lured them into his home, that's... That's the one from 1993. Right. Like, that's big. So it's like, did you do something before that? Exactly. So that's what they're thinking. Like, because he did want to kill them. So... Yes. So February 10th, 1991, she disappeared. She was one of three girls to Michael and Jeanette Hamilton. She was, again, I tried to look for more background on a couple of these girls, but there's not a lot of information about them.

Nothing. I got what I could, but, you know, if I can add later, I will. She was last seen waiting for a bus, and that was it. She was gone. No one knew where. And I think she had been at, like, if she possibly at a dance hall that night, she was out that night. Okay. I was going home.

So 11 days later, someone found her. purse in a gutter. And it was in between like the rail station and the bus station. Yeah. So that's alarming. Everything was still in the purse. And they surmise that he might have thrown that purse in this location on purpose. Yeah. To make the police and her family think she ran away via railway station or bus station. That's just stupid. And so he at the time, Peter Tobin, at the time that this had all happened, after she went missing, he moved 500 miles away. to the south end of England in Kent. Uh-huh.

He bought a little terrace house, and what nobody knew was that he buried Vicky Hamilton's dismembered body in his backyard. Stop. Mm-hmm. So he moved that far away and took her on the journey. Took her dismembered body 500 miles away with him. Oh, that is foul. Now, in 2006, when this Operation Anagram had begun, they found out that Tobin lived,

at the time of Vicky's disappearance, they found out that he had lived very close to where she disappeared. And that's when they were like, he's connected. That's when they started pulling all this stuff. So at the time, DNA linked him to DNA found on the purse. Okay. It was actually not his. It was his son Daniel's DNA on that purse. Oh.

Which makes me stressed in a whole different way because his son was small. Right. Which means she might have been. in his car where his son was or maybe was in the car where the son had been and like because he was also known to do the thing that we've seen in a few cases where he would pick up women and make them feel comfortable by having his son's toys behind him in the backseat right so it's possible that she was in that car it was transferred DNA okay I really don't want to believe that his son was actually present for any of this and somehow was able to touch that person

because that poor child. Yeah. I've tried to look up things about Daniel, by the way, and I haven't found anything, but like, I hope he's okay. I do too. I really do, because I'm like, you poor thing. And all his ex-wives, I hope they're okay. I know, I really do.

So they ended up, once they found out that this DNA on the purse matched Daniel. They were able to go to Peter Tobin's home, and in a loft, they found a knife. That knife still had Vicky's DNA on it in 2006. Wow. So they were able to use ground penetrating radar to find that there were remains in his backyard, that backyard that he had moved 500 miles away to live in. They dug up his garden and they found a set of partial remains bound and gagged. And they were like dismembered.

They also found another set of remains buried in there that they were like, oh, stop. What's that? So the second set of remains was in two garbage bags and the victim had been cut in half at the waist. Oh. The second body belonged to Dina McNickle. She was born on August 6, 1991, or excuse me, she went missing August 6, 1991. I was going to say, how old was she?

I know, I'm sorry. Everybody's like, oh. No, she went missing August 6, 1991. She was from Tillingham, Essex, and she was the fourth youngest out of five children. Yeah. Her dad was a jazz musician, and her mother had died in a car crash when she was six. Oh, God. So her father was raising her and her four other siblings alone.

Right. And he sounds like such a dad. It's just like, oh. They wanted to, so the two parents had wanted to make sure that their kids were, like, able to be as unique and as, like, whoever they were. They never wanted to. They said they, it was something like he said, we wanted to raise them as individuals and not as the gang. I love that. Which I was like, I love that.

That's a great. That's really cool. Way. As a result, Dinah was definitely her own person and, like, beat to her own drummer. She loved rave music. She dressed in thrift store finds. She was super independent, just like a super cool chick. She often had like dreads in her hair and was just like, just this like free spirit

person. Like eccentric. She liked to stand out. She would like dress up for Rocky Horror Picture Show showings and yeah, she was just cool. So that evening she had hitchhiked with and she had met a friend at the music festival that she was attending. She was hitchhiking back home. This guy that she had met at the festival was named.

David Tremlett and he was 26. Okay. They were just hitchhiking home together. Yeah. And he got dropped off first and he said like he said bye. She was not worried about being with this man that had picked them up. Yeah. He never saw her again. Uh-uh. And that was it. Yeah. So this guy got dropped off and then she went with Peter Tobin. Oh no. It was never seen again alive. So she disappeared, when she disappeared, she was 18 years old. Her father was not psyched to let her go to the festival alone that night, he said. I hate when it's like, I didn't want to, but I did. Well, in his reasoning is he said he wanted her to know that he trusted her. Oh, isn't that just like, oh. Now, for the next, I think 10 days, her card, like her debit card was used in Southeast

Hove, Brighton, Portslaid, Margut, and Ramsgate. He used her fucking debit card. And you want to know what the money was on that debit card was from? Her mother's death. Like, that was the sum, like the money she had inherited from her mother's death and he used it. Wow. Wow. What a piece of shit. And also, it's like, how old are you and you're using an 18 year old girl's debit card? Like, what the fuck? An actual piece of shit. She was also really tiny. I read that she was like four foot 11. Really? Yeah. So almost 13 years after Dinah had gone missing, she still wasn't found at that point. Right. And her father was still holding out hope. And he said, quote, I still dare to hope that one day she'll walk through the door and give me a hug. He had a heart

attack in four strokes while waiting for her to be found. Jeez. According to the Guardian, he said before she was finally found, he said, quote, anything that comes on TV or the radio, something about a body being found, I think, oh my God, no. My heart panics. When they say it was a boy or something, I feel sad for the parents, but I also feel really glad it's not my dinah. But now I'm getting on a bit.

I would like to die knowing where she is and have it finished. Did he? Was he alive? to be there when she was found. Well, that's good, but also horrible. It's like closure, but like the worst kind of closure. Right. Now, her cause of death was unable to be narrowed down by autopsy.

But the autopsy did show that she and Vicky both showed signs of being drugged with Emma Triptylene, which was, this was something that was prescribed to Peter Tobin. He had a prescription for it. Yeah. It was for, it was like an antidepressant, but it can also be used for its sedative effect. Okay. And he had, when he had drugged and raped those two 14-year-old girls, that's what he had used as a set of. Okay.

So they found these, exactly. So this was found in Vicky's system and in Dinah's. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Now, he did the classic thing, like I said, of leaving, because this guy that had hitchhiked with her said, oh, yeah, there were like kids' toys in the back. Oh. So that's why everybody felt okay. one of his neighbors saw him digging the grave in his backyard when he was doing it.

Can you imagine seeing your damn neighbor digging a fucking grave? Well, and you want to know, because he said he had the, again, he uses his son. So he said, this neighbor said, quote, I looked over the fence one day and saw him digging this massive hole in the garden. And I said, what are you doing, Pete? You going for Australia? And he said, no. He said, I'm digging a sandpit for the lad when he comes up somewhere for him to play. Oh, my God.

And then about two days later, then about two days went by, and it was all filled in and flattened off. So the neighbor's like, I literally saw this and I was like, that's weird. But like, what do you, you're not going to automatically be like, he probably murdered someone and buried them there. Unless you're us. But the poor, exactly. But the poor guy is like, now he's like, shit. So December 2nd, 2008, he was convicted of Vicki's murder and sentenced to life. He did, he was convicted of Vicky, Dina, and Angelica's murder.

Okay, good. So he got three consecutive life sentences. What the judge said to him was, you stand convicted of the truly evil abduction and murder of a vulnerable young girl in 1991, and thereafter of attempting to defeat the ends of justice in various ways over an extended period. Yet again, you have shown yourself to be unfit to live in a decent society. It is hard for me to convey the loathing and revulsion that ordinary people will feel for what you have done. I fixed the minimum period which you must spend in custody at 30 years.

Had it been open to me, I would have made that period run consecutive to the 21-year custodial period that you were already serving. Wow. So that judge was like, if it was up to me, you would never get out ever, ever, ever, or have any chance to, you vile piece of manship. Because you are disgusting. Now, Vicki's father had to be carried out of the courtroom with help because he was so upset during the trial.

That makes my heart hurt so much. And I read in several sources that Vicky, along with Dinah, was also cut in half at the waist. Yeah. And then some just said dismembered. So I'm assuming it is just cut in half at the waist, not that that's just. No. I wonder why he did that, because it's like you're burying them in the backyard. I wonder if it was just, I think it was probably just for transport.

Yeah. It's easier to transport two bags of halves, right? But I'm sorry. Did you say, because were they, they weren't murdered in his house? We don't know where they were murdered. Yeah, because it's like you wonder like if they were murdered in the house, then I mean, he could just drag them out to the backyard where he was going to put them. Well, no, because he had moved 500 miles away shortly after he had killed Vicky. Vicki, right.

And then Dina was killed shortly after Vicky, so they could have, he could have moved after that and transferred them both. There you go. Yeah. So what Vicky's father had to say about him. was, quote, that evil bastard took part of my life away. My daughter and the grandkids I could have had. When they said he had cancer, it was the best news I'd ever read in the paper. Because what happened was after he was put in prison, he got diagnosed with cancer. Unfortunately, somehow this motherfucker is still living. Right now? Yep, he's still living. Damn. He's being held at Edinburgh's

sought in prison. And he brags, again, that he killed 48 people, but he's been telling psychologists, you got to figure it up. But he's not going to give any information. And you think he did? I think he killed a lot more people. I think he killed a lot more, definitely. When asked how he felt about the victim's families, he said he, quote, couldn't give a fuck about the families of his victims. Wow.

That's literally a quote, I couldn't give a fuck. It's like, what went so wrong in your mind that you're just such a monster? He also had several strokes and heart attacks in prison. Lived through them all, unfortunately. He even faked his own death while in prison. He tried to pretend he was dead. And he didn't think that they were going to, like, check for a fucking pulse. Apparently, yeah.

And in 2019, he was diagnosed with, this is when the cancer diagnosis came. He lost a ton of weight. He couldn't eat. They thought he was going to die. They said they didn't even think he was going to live to Christmas 2019. Surpass that. Here he is. He's baffling everybody.

Dinah's brother, Dan, said he hopes, when he found out the cancer diagnosis, he was like, cool, I hope he suffers. Yeah. And then he was like, I honestly don't want him. did I want him to suffer. I was just going to say that. It's almost better that he's alive because he's suffering like a lot. He sure is because he's in his late 70s now. So, early 70s, I can't be math.

He's Papa's age. Yeah, I was going to say, same year. You're right, 46. Yeah. So, and just leading into the next episode, Detective Joe Jackson, who worked on the original Bible John case and looked into this case. Detective Joe Jackson, could you have a better name? You have to be a detective, a homicide detective.

if that's your name. He said he firmly believes that Peter Tobin is Bible John. Wow. And he said he actually staked out at Barrowland Dance Hall during the Bible John murders, looking to see if he could spot him. And he said he just knows he's him. Do I have to wait until next episode to find out why he's called Bible John? You sure do. Fuck you. It's exactly what you think it is. Actually, it's not even very creative. I don't even like, is it a religious murder? Well, he's, he kind of like spouts really. just shit, but we'll get into that next episode. So that is Peter Tobin. He's crazy.

He's the worst. Yeah. He's real bad. Real bad guy. Yeah, he's a real bad guy. He's potentially a lot of real bad guys. Yeah, he is. He's potentially like dozens of real bad guys.

Wow. All wrapped up into one little shit stain. I know. It's true. I'm worried he's going to die and he's, I mean, I know he's going to die and he's going to take every secret he has. Right. He's going to be an Ian, Brady.

Yeah. He's going to go taunting everybody and just being like, fuck the world. Maybe even worse, because I don't, I mean, me and Brady definitely didn't kill as many people as he did. Wow. I know. That's so sad for those families too. Like all these families with missing kids that probably know that it was Bible John or Peter

fucking rabbit or whatever his aliases at the time. Peter, what do we have? Peter Tobin, Patrick McLaughlin, James Kelly. And potentially Bible John. Yeah. And there's way more. I'll see if I can come up with the rest of him. Wow.

He came up with all. He was McLaughlin a lot. He chose McLaughlin many times. Wow. Yeah. So that is Peter Tobin. And yeah, he's a fucked up individual. I think there's a book.

There is a book, and I'll mention in the next episode, that is written basically connecting him to the Bible John murders. And I'll recommend it for the next one because I'm going to finish it. But yeah. So next. next or I keep going to say next week. I know. We're going to talk about Babel Joan. Bobble Joan. Before we get the hell out of here, we're going to thank the backbone of this podcast. Patronesis is. Patronis. We finally are organizing who we have thanked and who we haven't thanked.

So without further ado, thank you to Abby Gross. Thanks, Abby Gross. You're not gross. At all. Thank you to Alana Oberbrose. Alana Olberg. Thank you so much. Cool last name. I like that. Oberg. Angela Reber. Angela Reber. You are not Justin Bieber. No. Thank you. We love you. Next is Areca Jean Horstman. Arrika Jean Horstman. You have a great name and I thank you for bringing it into my world. Same. Then we have Ashley spelled like mine. Ashley spelled like yours. It's crazy. And her last name is McEwen. McEwan. Ashley McEwen, thank you so much. Thank you. Next up is Brecken Morgan. Brecken Morgan. That's a great rhymes with Hecken. Heckin. You're Hecken great, Brecken. Thank you so much. Next we have Cameron Tweedy and Sydney Vickers.

Cameron Tweedy and Cindy Vickers. You, Sydney. Oh, Sydney Vickers. Excuse me. You, well, Sydney. Hello, Sydney. Hello, Sydney. You guys are the best, and I want to give you a Snickers. We bet you're a final girl. Next is Casey Cahill. Casey Cahill. We love an alliteration. We do. And Cahill is just like, I don't know, it's just, it's got a nice feel. It does. Yeah, it does. Kayhill. Kayhill. I bet you're nice. Yeah, you are. And last but certainly not least is Chrissy Allen. Chrissy Allen, thank you so much. Your last name is a first name and that's fun. Same. Yay. We love you. Thank you so much, Patronis. We could not do this without you and we appreciate you endlessly. Endlessly. We're very excited for you to get your filling gift. We're working on it. We are. We had to approve it first because we don't just give you shit. No.

So get ready. It's intricate. So in the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram. At morbid podcast. You can hit us up on Twitter. At a morbid podcast. You can do a Gmail. It was like an email.

An email. Morbidpodcast. Atgmail.com. And we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you go by like 45 aliases and bury somebody in a church while they're still out because that's absolutely horrific. And not so weird that you would move 500 miles away while you're still like in the car with somebody that you dismembered. And not so weird that you're a dad and you use your kid to murder people.

Don't do that. That's real bad.