Morbid - Mommy and Clyde: The Crimes of Sante and Kenny Kimes

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

In the summer of 1998, eighty-two-year-old New York socialite Irene Silverman disappeared from her Manhattan townhouse without a trace. Silverman’s friends were immediately concerned, as it was completely out of character for Irene to leave town without telling anyone. Coincidentally, on the same day Irene Silverman disappeared, authorities in New York arrested Sante Kimes and her son, Kenny, on a charge of check fraud. Unbeknownst to investigators, these two events were directly linked.In the wake of the arrest of Kimes and her son, investigators discovered a number of links between the mother and son con artists and Irene Silverman that would not only lead to the discovery of Silverman’s body, but also to a years’ long crime spree that included everything from check fraud and impersonation to arson and murder. In the annals of American crime, it’s rare to find a series of violent crimes committed by a woman. And among those women, it is rarer still to find one so brutal, cunning, and manipulative as Sante Kimes.ReferencesAssociated Press. 1985. "Couple charged with slavery." The Union (Grass Valley, CA), August 6: 4.Bashinsky, Ruth, and Larry Sutton. 1998. "She lived in the present, belebrated ballet past." Daily News (New York, NY), July 8: 2.Finkelstein, Katherine. 2000. "Mother and son are given life sentences." New York Times, June 28.Kirsta, Alix. 1999. "The lady vanishes." The Guardian, November 20.Kocieniewski, David. 1998. "Deed ceding widow's house to suspects is found, police say." New York Times, July 25.NBC News. 2025. "The devil wore white." Dateline, January 1.Rohde, David. 1998. "2 now face murder charge in widow's disappearance." New York Times, December 17.—. 2000. "Jury hears a murder defendant's outburst; a woman screams for fairness." New York Times, April 29.Rohde, David, and Julian Barnes. 2000. "Without a body, murder case of widow relies on circumstantial evidence." New York Times, May 16.Sante Kimes v. United States. 1989. 86-1267 (District of Columbia Court of Appeals, October 31).Walker, Kent. 2001. Son of a Grifter: The Twisted Tale of Sante and Kenny Kimes, the Most Notorious Con Artists in America. New York, NY: William Morrow.  Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. This is morbid. It's almost Halloween, Halloween, Halloween. This is Halloween. Everybody make a scene. Pumpkins and stuff.

Pumpkins and stuff. All right. Hi. How is? How are you? How's everyone almost Halloween? Good? All good.

I'm glad to hear it. I want to know what everyone's dressing up as. Oh my God, you are? You guys got to see what we dressed up as. Yes. Ahead of time. She was, if anybody was confused, Elena was Addison from Zombies 3. I was Alien Addison from Zombies 3.

Not to be mistaken with cheerleader. Or almost werewolf Addison. Although you should have been almost Werewolf Addison. I would have. I like that. So I'm sure everybody can understand that I didn't choose that. My children chose it for me. And when they say, can you be this for Halloween?

You say, yep. And then they asked John to be Zed from Halloween. So we were to, we were, you know, alien Addison and zombie Zed. You guys looked great when you walked in. I was dying. And the kids are all from zombies as well. I think we got a willa, the werewolf. We got Eliza the zombie.

But then. And then my littlest one, we all know, is on a whole different. Planet on her own. She's not on her. She is half Willa the Werewolf. Yep. Half.

Remi, my cat. And the other half is Remy Ash's cat. And she could not wait to show Remy, my cat. Very excited to show Remy

the cat that she was half. But, yeah, it turned out really well. So we were a zombies family and also half a Remy the cat. Yeah, of course. I was just Miss Piggy and Drew was Kermy.

You guys slayed it. Thank you. I'm so upset because I ordered a prosthetic nose. was telling Elena. Because I wanted to go like full-fledged and I wanted to like glue down my eyebrows. Oh man. And like put the makeup like higher. And I didn't have time to do my hair.

It was hard because I hosted. It looked great. Thank you. I hosted so I made all the food. Yeah. When you're hosting, it's hard to go all out with the costume. And my prosthetic number came. I know that sucks.

I know. I'm going to get delivered and I'm going to be like, okay, I don't need this anymore. It's going to get delivered like two weeks after Halloween and you're just going to show up one day as Miss Piggy. I mean. To record. Imagine. We're just going to be like, hey, girl.

I'm just like, yeah, see, I wanted to be something scary, but, you know, not this year. There's always next year. They're getting more into, like, spooky shit. They are, so, you know, whatever they request. And like we were saying, there's only so many years that your kids are in this, like, goofy, excited, like, into everything, go all outstage, especially for Halloween costumes. And it's like, if they ask me to be something, I'm going to be it until they don't ask me to be something. anymore, you know?

Like, it's just like, I'm going to at least hold on to this for as long as I can. Yeah, you gotta. But it'll be a sad day when they're like, mom, we're going out with our friends for Halloween. And I'm going to say, no. But then you can come trick-or-treating with me and my kids. That's true. Because they'll be, like, younger. That's very true.

So it'll be fine. We'll have every stage of life at some point. I love that. Yeah. I love that. That was deep. There was. Every stage of life at some point.

I just meant, like, in kids. Yeah. But then you could double that as like, we'll all hit every stage and, knife at some point. Wow. Ash has crossed over. Listen, I was up late last night. My coffee hit and then it

unhit. She had like a time release coffee this morning that just hit like two hours late. I did. And then suddenly she was just bouncing off the wall singing that It Girl song from Kinktok. That song, I feel like it was written like

to me. Not because I'm the it girl. Just because like it's so fucking good. I love that you're like, I'm not the girl. Well, I'm not being like, I feel like it was written about me. That song, she had me in mind when true. That song It Girl, I think it was about Ashkell. Oh my God, I'm pretty sure.

No, I just meant like, imagine. Wow, I'm intolerable today. I love you today. I love you all days. Oh my God, thank you. Today you're funny. That was so nice. Today I'm funny.

You're never funny any other day. What, you little bitch? It went from so sweet to like, fuck you. At checks. The other. day when I was like, you need me. And you were like, okay. I was like, shut up.

All right. I'm not talking about this anymore. Elena loves me a lot. I do. It's only infrequently that she bullies me. Yeah. Only infrequently, but it happens. Of course it does.

I mean, I bully you too. Infrequently during the day. I told Elena today no ghost at the wedding and you would have thought that I shot the woman. I bullied her. Yeah. I didn't actually. No, you didn't bully me. No, I didn't.

I was like, I bullied you. Then I was like, wait, no, I didn't. All right. Well, we should probably get on with things because we're just nonsensical today. Did you eat a lot of candy yesterday? I didn't eat a lot of candy, actually. Maybe that's what's happening to me. I ate so many fucking fun-sized crunch bars.

There it is. And Butterfingers, I'm like on another planet today. Space level. Oh, spice level. Oh, my God. Just really quickly. I also last night watched, there was like a watch what happens live. recap of the best Vanderpump Rules moments

of watch what happened live. And James Kennedy was on there, and it was when he got to perform for Steve Aoki, and that really just sent me. I love that. And when you said space level. Space level. It made me think of it.

Made you think of it. All right. So anyway, back to the morbid. I have a wild case today. It's old-timey, so if you're not here for that, then love you, bye. And if you're here for it, love you, hi. So it's Nan Patterson and the death of Caesar Young.

And I say death because to this day, we don't know if he was murdered. Ooh, I love when we all get to decide. You get to decide. This is also a very you case. I looked at like a, I don't know what happens per se, but like I looked at a little summary of it. And I was like, this is a case that Ash, like, belongs covering. Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah. It's like Nan seemed a little fabulous if she didn't commit more. murder. Yeah. I'm not sure if she did or not. So I won't commit to that. That would be fabulous if she didn't. Yeah, I'm not going to commit. So the woman at the center of this case, Nan Patterson, she was actually born Anne Elizabeth Patterson. Name is not Nan, it's Anne. What a way, what a like small, subtle way to change it into like a stage. I love it. Exactly. So she was born in 1882 and she was one of three children born to John Patterson, who was a well-known real estate developer in and around Washington, D.C.

I couldn't find anything about who Nan's mother was. And I don't think it could either. So when she was born, he was the supervising architect of the Treasury. Oh, wow. But he resigned at the beginning of Grover Cleveland's first term as president. And he said, as a lifelong Republican, he, quote, refused to hold office under a Democrat. Okay. So that was that.

Live your life. What did you say? Live your life, I guess. Yeah. So Nan's early life was pretty unremarkable, but things changed dramatically for her in 1898 when at just 16 years old she started dating a man named Leon Gaines Martin. He was about 14 years older than Nan, but that was like more acceptable back then. I was going to say back then it was like pretty regular.

Yeah, it was so regular, but it's so wild to hear that. Yeah. Now they met in Baltimore, and after just one year together, they actually ended up getting married. Nan was 17. and Leon ended up taking a job with the San Francisco Railroad, which meant they now had to move from New York across the country to California. So as a young now married woman in her later teens, Nan, she was still interested in doing the things that most people her age were interested in.

She liked fashion, she liked theater, she liked just like girly shit. So being in California with the fashion and the theater was like being at the center of the cultural universe and she was fucking stoked over it. but Leon on the other hand married life wasn't really what he had expected okay yeah the first few months in San Francisco they were happy but it didn't take long for their relationship to start crumbling and Leon he had high expectations

he wanted Nan his new wife to be dutiful obedient like old tiny things terrible things yeah you should definitely look for that in a partner yeah you know obedience yeah fantastic absolutely Can you imagine having that be like a list of desirable qualities in your partner? You're obedient? I cannot. Yikes.

But what he got and said, he later told reporters, was a girl who, quote, was of a lively and emotional nature. It's like, you married someone almost 14 years your junior. Of course she's full of life. She just started living it. He just described a person who is alive. Correct. Emotional and lively. It's like, that's just a life.

that's a pulse. That's a carbon-based person, I think. Like, that's really just like, like, what? Did you want her like, well, I know what you wanted. He wanted her docile and robotic. And it's like, well, then you should have just got a robot, my friend. Jump ahead in time a little bit. Or I mean, back then, you probably could have found somebody that you wanted. Yeah, who got forced into that. Exactly. But to deal with his woes, he started drinking heavily and gambling more often. And that just only led to the relationship crumbling even faster than it would have. And actually just one year after they got married and moved to the opposite side of the country, they got separated. Oh. Yeah.

Now, years later, they did end up divorcing. And Nan cited desertion and failure to provide as the reason for the divorce, which like, Knife. Yeah. That hurts. Now, Leon challenged her assertion, telling the judge, his wife, quote, had the stage fever and became inordinately fond of dress that he could not afford to give her the luxury she wanted. She had the stage fever. She had the stage fever and she liked to dress nass.

I love that that's just a reason for divorce. She got that stage fever. Oh, back then it was actresses back then. I looked so down upon. It's crazy. Yeah, you get that stage fever. It's like a completely alternate universe to what we're used to now. Because we hold actors and actresses on pedestals.

And not back then. But what a douche. So now that she wasn't able to rely on her husband, for financial support. In 1901, she auditioned for the Floradora girls. They were a traveling troop of chorus girls born out of the late 19th century stage play, Florida. I always feel like I'm staying it wrong, but I did Google it and it's Florida. Oh, look at that. It sounds cute. It's it is. Well, it's cute, but it's also problematic because as a rule, all Flora girls had to be exactly 5'4 and they had to weigh 130 pounds. Wow. That's slim, that's

slims down the applicant pool. Sure does. And they also had to be a quote, or they had to quote, personify the ultimate and feminine beauty. It's like, that's a lot. This sounds so healthy. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Now, as a member of the Flora Dora girls' sextet, Nan toward the country as Nan Rudolph, that was her stage name. And they got to travel. They performed everywhere from California to Georgia to New York. And she did that. that from the summer of 1901 until the spring of 1902. And when she went back in California, around April or May of 1902, she started living with her sister Julia in San Francisco.

And it is around that time that she met a young man named Caesar Young, who, as we know, ultimately dies. Now, Caesar had been born in Surrey, England in 1867, and he'd come to the United States in 1890 as a poor amateur athlete. And in the 10 or so years before he met Nan, he actually had amassed a fortune buying and selling race horses and also earned himself a reputation as a gambler, bookmaker, and notable quote unquote, man about town. Man about town. Imagine that's your occupation. I'm just a man about town.

Just a man about this town. Just about town, yeah. I'm about this town. I like that. Now, as a horse trader, Caesar traveled around the country buying and selling horses and he was on his way to. California in the fall of 1902 when he met Nan on the train. Now, a New York prosecutor would tell a jury in 1904, that quote, Young was a man who exercised a singularly great influence on women and he was himself

easily susceptible to women. So given that. Easily susceptible to women. I was really hoping you would repeat that quote. Easily susceptible to women. Like we're like an illness. All right. So given that.

Caesar was immediately taken with the beautiful and vivacious nan on the train. Of course. So much so that they literally couldn't even wait for the train to reach California before, shall we say, getting to know each other more intimately. Oh, consummating their friendship. Consumating their acquaintanceship. Their meeting. Literally.

Their introductions. So these motherfuckers like locked eyes on the train. He was like, you're hot. She was like, you're hot. So they got off in Chicago instead of going all the way to California. Wow. And they had a little afternoon trist in a hotel. Damn, folks.

Got a hotel, fucked, got back on the train in Chicago, and then went back to California. Just hot people doing hot things. That is the definition of hot girl shit. That is hot girls shit. That is what Meg had in mind when she wrote the song, getting off a train to fuck a man that you think is hot. And then go back on the train to finish your journey. Yeah, to go to your business, you know. Like, damn.

Wow. Obsessed. All right. So when Caesar and Nan got back on the train in Chicago, they registered as Mr. and Mrs. Francis Thomas Young. But there was a little bit of a problem. Caesar was already married to a woman in New York. Oh, not hot girl shit.

Who was fully expecting to join him in California. Hot girl shit erased. Yeah. And also, this depends on how you look at things. Nan was not officially divorced yet. She was separated but not divorced. All right.

So I don't personally at least, I don't see an issue on her end. But it's like, guys, you're separated, but. He has a lady. But I see an issue on Caesar's end. Because at that point, I don't know if he had been honest with Nan about the wife. Eventually he is, and I didn't love that. So in the two years that followed, Nan and Caesar carried on their affair with a little regard for secrecy. and they just spent time together whenever they could.

After Caesar's death, many papers noted that, quote, it would have been useless for him to deny that he was infatuated with the woman. Oh, no. It's the man, you're married. Yeah. In fact, he was so infatuated with Nan that even the idea of her being married to another man, regardless of the specifics of that marriage, proved intolerable. In less than a year into their relationship,

Caesar ended up paying for Nan's divorce from Leon. And on April 30th, 1903, she became a single woman again. Wow. But it's like... He just expedited that shit. You can't deal with the fact that she's married to someone, but you're married to someone. What if she doesn't like that? Yeah, that's not good.

You get to have your cake and eat it too, sir? Absolutely. So with Caesar's work allowing him to travel often and his investments in California, needing him to spend quite a bit of time in and around San Francisco and man living there, they had plenty of opportunities to see each other. And despite Caesar being more than a decade older than Nan, they carried on like lovers in their early 20s. They would spend evenings at restaurants in Sacramento,

cafes in Los Angeles. They were just living the high life. Living, laughing, and loving. All the way. But it's not cute because he has a wife. Yeah. So according to the district attorney, Caesar was a heavy drinker and, quote,

would frequently at the track drink 30 glasses of beer and every morning he would have three or four drinks of brandy with breakfast. Okay. So you're starting your day off with three glasses of brandy and then you go to the track and have 30 glasses of beer? The red flags are flagging. 30? That's a lot. 30? That's a lot. That's insane. Some might say too much. So meanwhile, Caesar's wife Margaret ended up finding out about the affair and she had been doing her best to ignore her husband's infidelity. But by the spring of 1904, after almost two years of the affair, she'd grown pretty tired of his bullshit. Yeah. And she decided, no, I'm not going to tolerate this. No way. And in March of 1904, Caesar and Nan took a trip to Berkeley

and then went on to Los Angeles to attend the races at Santa Anita Park. But Margaret caught wind of their plans. And she sent Caesar's business partner, John Millen, to L.A. to try to down her husband and his mistress as she made her own way to L.A. She was like, you go before me. I'm going to figure out some affairs as we figure out this actual affair. You go ahead and track them down and I'll be on my way soon. Nothing is better than catching someone in the act. Yep. When you know that it's happening. I've never had that happen, but I can only imagine that would just be like. Because it's just confirmation. Yeah. And it's one of those things because during that whole, when that stuff is happening, you're convincing yourself that you're

losing it and that it's you being overly paranoid and they convince you that you're being overly paranoid. So red-handed is just like, ha ha. Chef's kiss. And basically that's pretty much what happened because so John Millen makes his way and eventually Millen finds Caesar and Nan staying at a Turkish Turkish bathhouse in L.A. And he calls Margaret and tells her where they are. And she goes to the baths to confront them. Oh, girl. Incredible.

So she did not give a shit about the onlookers. And once she found Caesar, she directly and loudly confronted him, demanding he end the affair with Nan right then and there. Wow. But also I'm like, just go cacha. All done. Good luck together, guys. I'm moving on.

Like, I know it's not as easy as that, trust me. But it's like, you just want to see them be like, fuck you guys. I know. I agree. So, Caesar, he agreed reluctantly. And he instructed John Millen to take Nan to the station, give her $800 in cash, and put her on a train to New York. Wow. So long, sister.

Just discarded like trash. Here's some cash by. Like, how shitty is that? That's really, like. And that would just make you feel so yucky. Yeah, it's like dehumanizing. Yeah. So Millen did as he was instructed, but Margaret's attempt to end her husband's affair was ultimately unsuccessful. You don't say. Just weeks after agreeing to end his relationship, Caesar and Dan started seeing each other again.

Of course. With the same disregard for secrecy they'd shown the first time around. Now completely outraged at this point, Margaret Young again demanded her husband end this relationship. And again, he agreed. Okay. We got to stop, guys. It's a roller coaster. We got to stop. And this time he insisted that, quote, he would spend as much time and travel as would be required to kill his infatuation. Oh, okay. Another red flag here. Yeah, I'm totally going to end it. But I'm going to travel a lot. I'm going to travel a lot to stop my infatuation with this other woman. And like, you're going to travel a lot, meaning you're going to be away from home. So it's unclear whether Caesar had genuinely intended to end what was clearly. an obsessive relationship with Nan Patterson at this point. And honestly, it's an asshole move. It is. People can die and still be assholes when they lived. Like, that is just the real. Yeah, like maybe he wasn't an asshole all the time, but this is an asshole move.

But this particular thing, we can all agree, is not cool. Thank you. But at the very least, at this point, he was committed enough to the idea of ending the relationship that he agreed to spend the summer traveling around Europe with Margaret. Okay. And the two were scheduled to depart from New York on a white star ocean liner on the morning of June 4th, 1904. White Star, isn't that the Titanic line? Oh my God, is it? Is it? I think it might be. Can you Google that quickly? I think it's like White Star Line. I think you might be right. Yeah, operated by

White Star Line. Wow. The Titanic. That's on another level. That's really wild. And what year was this? 1904. 1904. Wow. So 1912. I think it was. Wow. That's crazy. That's just interesting. So they were probably like building the Titanic at that point. That's wild. Oh, any shit. Well, they don't end up on the going on it. They don't flash forward in the future. And they don't end up going on this ocean liner. Oh, okay.

So yes, they were scheduled to depart on a White Star Ocean liner the morning of June 4th, 1904. But of course, Caesar felt that he had to see Nan one last time before he left for the summer. You know, continue to have his cake and eat it too. Oh, boy. So on the evening before, the evening of June 3rd, he did agree, or Nan did agree, to meet Caesar at, this place called Flannery. It's a restaurant in lower Manhattan, and they had dinner and champagne. And they had certainly hoped to be alone, but they ended up being joined that evening by Caesar's brother-in-law. So Margaret's brother, William Luce or Luce, who insisted on

accompanying Caesar to the meeting, but agreed to sit at an adjacent table. So is he there as like a chaperone? I believe so. I don't... This is a strange scenario. It is a strange scenario. It's unclear to me if Margaret sent her brother to watch them or if maybe Caesar and the brother were just close the brother-in-law were just close and he was like I want to make sure you don't fuck my sister over and like I'll do you this solid so you can say bye to your girl messy messy it's very messy it's giving real housewives no matter what way it's going it's messy yeah it's bad so see he sat at the adjacent table and accompanied them on their date and according to the owner of Flannery, Caesar and Nan seemed to be discussing their relationship. At first,

calmly, but after a few drinks, the conversation ended up getting heated. And Caesar insisted he was leaving and the relationship must come to an end. He told Nan, I have loved you and I do love you now, but I will travel until I forget you. I will stay abroad a year if necessary. I'm, this is so intense. It's so intense. It's so intense. I will travel. It's an interesting method of going about this. I will travel until I forget you. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe like... Being other places. Like, it's just a strange method. I guess maybe being places where they hadn't been together. Yeah. Kind of thing. Maybe, because I'm like, distance makes the heart grow fonder, I thought.

It does. This doesn't seem like it's going to work. Maybe it's just the idea of like I won't run into you. Yeah. I don't know. Like, I think it's like in Gilmore Girls when Max Medina says that he can't be near Lorela and he says keep a big basketball player side. person in between us. Justice for Max Medina. Honestly, justice for Max Medina. I do love Luke, but I do. Justice for Max. But I loved Max.

Same. But before parting ways that evening, Caesar did agree to meet with Nan one last time the next morning before leaving for the pier. So he is literally getting on a fucking, like, I don't know, it's probably a yacht, with his wife. And is like, this is the last time I'm going to see you, Nan. I'm just going to meet my mistress one more time. Actually, just kidding, I'm going to see you the morning before I leave.

This is a lot. Cold turkey, dude. This is like not a great look here. No. So the next morning, Caesar left the apartment that he shared with Margaret a little before 7 a.m. And told Margaret he was, quote, going to attend to some urgent business and that he'd meet her at the pier a little after 9 a.m. And also, like, and also I have to say, because we're saying like, Caesar, this is an asshole move. Yeah.

Asshole move. Absolutely. This is like really asshole move. Like, you guys got to get it together. That's the thing. Like you're both doing this to this woman. This is really fucked up. Yeah, because before, like, when I was saying, like,

like, hot girl shit, I don't think Nan knew that they were together. That's the thing. Hot girl shit when everyone's single and everyone's happy. Right. And fine. But now you know. It's messy as fuck now. You know he's literally going out with his wife on an ocean liner to go travel together

to repair their relationship. And you are agreeing to meet him. Like, you're both messy. That's fucked up. That's super fucked up. really yucky. So he's telling her, I have to attend to some business. Yeah, and that's fucked up. He's still lying to you? Yeah. Now, as we know, obviously, the business was meeting Nan. So they met a little before 8 a.m. and they were headed in the direction of the pier. So they're literally heading toward the pier where he's supposed to meet his wife to leave. And they're in a handsome cab, which is a, it's like a type of horse and carriage where the passenger sit in the carriage right behind the horse and the driver is seated on a spring seat behind them. cab. Oh, okay. And that will be important later. That's why I went to detail. We'll try to post a picture if we can. Yeah, I've definitely seen those types. Yeah. As soon as I looked it up, I was like,

oh, okay. Yeah. So now just as the cab approached the corner of Franklin Street and West Broadway, the driver heard a loud bang come from inside the cab. And once he managed to get his horse under control, he pulled the cab to the side of the street and flagged down a nearby patrol officer who rushed over to see what the hell was going on. And when the officer reached the cab, he looked inside and saw that Caesar Young had collapsed into Nan's lap and appeared to be unconscious. Now, as soon as he lifted Caesar into

an upright position, the officer saw that there was a large hole in his chest, just slightly lower than his left shoulder. Now, upon a quick search of the body, the officer did locate the pistol, which had fallen into Caesar's jacket pocket with one chamber empty.

Now, as all of this was going on, Nan just appeared to be stunned and was clasping her hands. and's repeating, Caesar, Caesar, why did you do this? Hmm. Now, without hesitating, the officer told the cab driver, Frederick Michaels, to drive as fast as possible to the nearby Hudson Street Hospital, where Caesar, unfortunately, was pronounced dead before they were ever able to get him to the operating table. Damn.

And when Nan heard that Caesar hadn't made it, she became hysterical. And quote, the services of a physician who was to have attended to Young were enlisted and hurried instead. Damn. And that's from the New York Times in 1904. It's always cool in cases like this when like a New York Times article was written. I know. But it's in 1904. Yeah, because it's always interesting to see how they word things too because it's just always so different.

Yeah, and it's just interesting like the fact that the New York Times has been operating for as long as it's. Now, once she was able to compose herself, Nan ended up being taken to the Leonard Street Police Station where she sat for an interview with Captain Sweeney. According to Nan, she and Caesar had met early that morning so that she could see him one last time before he left for England. And on the way to the dock, she said, Caesar had the cab driver stop at two different saloons where he had at least one drink of whiskey before getting back in the cab. So he had two drinks. Or, yeah, two drinks of whiskey. Okay. And this, I mean, this guy drinks heavily, so this wouldn't be.

So, yeah, he does drink heavily. And the thing is, she said, at least one drink. Okay. So it's a little unclear how much he did drink. I don't know if she just like was trying to protect him or if she got confused in the chaos of everything, but at least one drink at both saloons, so at least two drinks total. Okay. Now as they got to the docks, close to the docks, excuse me, they started arguing about their relationship and his leaving when, according to Nan,

Caesar in a moment of impulsivity, pulled a gun from his jacket pocket. He told her he wanted one last embrace, quote unquote, pulled her into his chest, wrapped his right arm around her and then suddenly discharged the gun under her shoulder into the left side of his chest. So, like, wrapped his right arm around her, and it would make sense that if that was the case, he would have shot into his left shoulder. Yeah? Yep. Or in front of his left shoulder.

I mean, it also makes sense he could, like, if he's a righty, that would be where it would go anyways. Exactly. Exactly. Like, like, bend it inward. Yeah, like picture hugging somebody, putting your arm around them, and where does your hand kind of end up? So when the gun went off, she said Caesar dropped the pistol and it fell into his jacket pocket as he slumped forward into her lap.

And she told the investigator, quote, now that he's dead, I love him so dearly that I feel I have nothing to live for and no desire to live. Which is sad. Now, as she was being interviewed by Captain Sweeney, a very distraught John Millen, if you remember from the beginning, Caesar's business partner, entered the Leonard Street Station. And he was quote unquote, flustered with excitement and rage and demand. to see Nan. And when the desk sergeant wouldn't allow him to, he shouted, I could kill that woman. She cannot deceive me. She did for young what she has done for two other men before. She cannot deceive me. I knew young since we were boys together. So he's claiming that she killed two other men. I was just going to say, I'm sorry. Does she have information we don't have?

Out of nowhere. Damn. Now a bit later, Nan was being let out of Captain Sweeney's office and taken to the coroner's office as that was happening. Millen, who had been sitting there waiting for her, jumped out of his chair and rushed toward her, making a move to strike her. Whoa. But before he could, two officers grabbed him and dragged him away. And they were like, you're going to get arrested if you try to pull that shit. Yeah, you can't go around hitting people. So instead, he followed Nan and the accompanying officers down the hall,

shouting after her that, quote, if he had a gun, he would shoot her then and there. Damn. This whole thing is just so messy. It's so dramatic and so messy. And he seems very, very convinced that she did this. Like there's no question in his mind. Not a doubt in his mind. So the scene repeated itself outside of the station with Millen again trying to assault Nan,

who cowered behind the accompanying officer begging her to, quote unquote, save her from Millen's fury. My God. She's fucking terrible. Yeah. It looks like he's going to try to kill her. Quite literally. If he had a gun, he probably would have. Now, at the coroner's office, even more information came to light that didn't do much to help Nan's

case. If Caesar's death was a suicide like Nan intended, or like Nan had indicated, excuse me, then that would have been easily proven by only one set of fingerprints on the weapon. But according to Nan, her fingerprints would be on the gun as well. She said, quote, because I took the pistol out of his pocket and put it back again. Why? Why would you do that? Like, that is very strange to me. Yeah. Yeah. So did she have a reason? Or she was just like, yeah, I just picked it up and put it back in.

I took the pistol out of his pocket and put it back again. So she watched somebody kill themselves with a weapon. And then she said, I should probably touch that weapon and then put it back where I found it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I've never been in that position, so I'm not going to say it's a total impossibility. I don't know.

But it's strange. It's strange. But there was a detail that helped her here. Okay. There didn't appear to be any gunpowder residue on her hands. I was going to ask that. Indicating that while she may have held the gun, it wasn't likely that she fired it. If there's no gunshot residue on her hands.

All right, that's pretty interesting. That is, isn't it? That's a pretty big one. Strange. And there's absolutely no way she would have been able to wash her hands. The police officer came right to the cab after it happened and immediately escorted her. And was there gunshot residue on his hand? We will find out that, yes, there was gunshot residue.

residue on his hands. Oh. Interesting. Huh. So things got worse when John Millen arrived with additional details about Nann's history with men. The coroner told the New York Times, quote, Mr. Millen has made many grave charges against this woman. Millen told me that a member of the Ben Hur Company killed himself on her account while she was with the Flora Company, and that afterward, another man who got into trouble with her killed himself. Ah. Now, Millen's claims of Nann's suspiciously driving other men to suicide were entirely unsubstantiated. Okay, because I was going to say, do we have, like, proof of this?

They were never, ever determined to be anything more than rumor. Oh, okay. So there wasn't even, like, proof that this had even happened. Literally no proof whatsoever. But still, his comments started a classist misogynistic rumor mill that would not only persist through the investigation in trials, but also influenced their outcome in a big way. Now, the biggest problem investigators faced was that while multiple people had theories about what happened between Nan and Caesar, no one actually saw anything yet. Like, they haven't talked to anybody yet who actually saw what happened in the cab.

Yeah. The cab driver told police he never heard any argument and was only aware of the problem when he heard the gun go off. Up until that point, he was like, I was just driving the fucking cab. Yeah, he was just paying attention to what was in front of him. Yeah, I didn't hear anything. But police had other information that made them doubt Nan's claim of suicide. Captain Sweeney told the press, quote,

it looks to me like murder. Our information includes several letters of a threatening nature, which were sent to Young, supposedly at the insistence of this woman. Uh-oh. So he's saying that Caesar was getting all these, like, threatening letters before, maybe not from Nan,

but she urged somebody to write him these letters. Oh, we're getting a little messier here. We're getting a little loosey with these. We're getting real messy. Like she didn't write him. But she told someone. And it's like, ah. It's also like, how are you going to prove that?

Exactly. And fun fact, they don't. But please know that this will remain messy all the way through. Okay. Up until the very end. And then we will get no resolution. No, quite literally none. I also can't stop saying quite literally because of Austin from Southern Charmer, and I'm sorry about it.

Quite literally, Madison. It's so bad. So anyways, Captain Sweeney wouldn't say what information was in the letters at that point, but reporters quickly learned that they had been sent from the address of Mrs. J. Morgan Smith, Nann's sister who she had lived with. Oh. And they indicated Nand was, quote, greatly wrought up on Young's account and that she, Mrs. Smith, would not be responsible for what would happen if he ever tried to desert her sister.

I mean, whoa. I know. That just feels like just sisterly, like. And also, I don't think anyone ever even saw the letters. Yeah. So they're just being like, I heard. Yeah. That this letter was written by this lady and that it said this.

And it's like, can you show me it? And they're like, no. Exactly. But I did hear it. Because that's enough. That's the thing. This is reporters being like, I found out that it was sent from this address. And back then...

A source close to me says this. And it's like, what source? And they're like, I'm not going to tell you. Exactly. And we know, even like with the Jack the Ripper case, they put random shit in there all the time. Oh, I don't always put shit in there. Yeah. So...

But according to Captain Sweeney, there were about three letters written to Caesar, all vaguely threatening in nature. And Nan claimed to know nothing about them. Okay. She was like, I didn't tell it. anybody to write shit. She could be lying. She could be telling the truth. I don't know. So after the autopsy was completed, the coroner released his finding that the death, excuse me, the cause of death was a hemorrhage of the lung from a bullet that entered the body, quote, just below the left shoulder between the first and second ribs piercing the apex

of the left lung. Wow. Like what a way to go. Now given all the unanswered questions, Nan was taken into custody and held in a cell, excuse me, at the tomb city prison. Imagine having to go to the tombs. Well, and it's also like, if she really was just in this cab with this man and he gave her a hug and shot himself in the lung. That's horrible. While hugging her. Yeah. And she just witnessed this and now is being put in the tomb jail cell. Can you imagine how fucked up this is? No. And then she, like, if she did not do this, she was put through the ringer. I always think of that when it's like an unknown. Yeah. I don't know if they did it or if it was some other way. It's like imagine. if they didn't. And it's really shitty because like obviously back then women weren't trusted.

No. You couldn't you couldn't say like on my word as a woman. Yeah. Like nobody gave a shit about you unfortunately. No. And honestly that's why my that's where my stance on the death penalty started to shift. Really? During this, during the creation of this entire podcast. Yeah. It was like people started talking to me more about it. And the more I thought about it, the more I was like, wow. Imagine. Imagine if you get it wrong. Like humans are fallible. And it's happened. People have sat in prison for like 30, 40, 50 years. And it's like, you look at that.

And it's like, ooh, it's like something you can't undo. And in this case especially, it's basically all he said, she said. There's not a lot of forensic evidence in this case. Of course not. And a lot of the like, well, I heard this from so-and-so is completely unsubstantiated. Yeah. And that's why these kind of crimes like in this era always fascinate me too. it's because with the

the advancements in technology and forensic science and all that good stuff is very fascinating and I love that stuff. Absolutely. But seeing them, like obviously this is a different one because this is kind of a wonky one where it's like he said, she said, but would they do solve a crime from back in these days?

It's crazy. It's fascinating because they did that with like nothing. Like no advancements in anything all just like phone. Pure detective work. Like just boots to the, the ground kind of like nose in there kind of thing. And it's like fascinating to see them do it. Oh, it absolutely is. But then it's really interesting to see this side of it too, where it's like,

this is where it can go really wrong them having no technology whatsoever. Honestly. Well, and it's interesting too because I used to be like fine. Like I didn't like mind you doing the old cases, but like they honestly, to be frank, they weren't my favorite. Yeah. But now I prefer them. Yeah, it's so funny. Because I think they're so much more interesting. And that's why I've started doing them. Yeah, they just like every once in a while to throw a really old timey one in there. It's just It's really interesting to see the dichotomy of how they solve these things. It is. It really is. So that's why we've been doing them.

But don't worry. We're all over the map. Yeah, we do everything. We'll stay all over the map. Didn't I just do a case from like the 70s? Yeah. That's my shit. There it is.

So yes, taken to the tombs, Dan was, and she was held on $5,000 bill. I don't know why I said it like that, but I did. So her attorney, Abraham Levy, came up with the money for her release, actually. But very aware and nervous about public interest in the case, the district attorney, William Jerome, immediately challenged the bail in order that she be held without bail. Oh. Which if you think about what they had

versus what they didn't have, the fact that she was held without bail is bullshit. Especially because it's like you don't have anything. Even if you really like, this seems like a very one-off crime of passion case

of that, which is not okay obviously, but it's like when we're talking about like holding bail and all that, that does fact. into it, like whether this is like you're a threat to society. Right. Like you're just going to run around or like a flight risk or something. Yeah. And it's like so even with that like not being the case, they're still doing that? Like and when they have nothing? And when she was arrested, the only evidence like the only evidence that they're holding her without bail on is a sworn affidavit from a junior police officer who was the first on scene. And in this affidavit, the officer stated his belief that Nan was quote, criminally involved. Wow. So she's being held without bail because, like, he thought so?

Because, like, I feel it. I feel, I feel that. Wild. Wow. Now, despite that being the only quote-unquote evidence, investigators and the district attorney's office pressed forward as though Nan were guilty. Wow. Less than a week after the shooting, the district attorney there, William Jerome,

brought the case to a grand jury with two surprise witnesses he said he hoped would secure him an indictment. Oh. A man who claimed. to have witnessed the shooting and the owner of the pawn shop where the pistol was purchased. Oh, damn. This is getting interesting. It is.

So, on June 8th, a wonderful fucking day. Before the grand jury had been convened, a man named Algeron mayor, I'm going to call him mayor because I don't want to butcher that name. But a supposed witness to the shooting went to the press to publicly identify himself and tell his story before making a formal statement to the police. or the district attorney, just went balls to the wall and was like, sup public. Wow.

He told the papers he'd seen the struggle inside the cab and, quote, the shooting appeared to be accidental, he said. Oh. Now, his account actually seemed to corroborate what Nan had told police in her statement, but more importantly, he was one of very few people with no agenda that could speak on her defense, on behalf of her defense. Hmm. So when the story broke about mayor witnessing the crime,

the DA's office came forward to announce the identity of their own. own witness, a man named Carl Norlander. According to them, Norlander had been brought to the tombs, where he positively ID'd Nan as the woman he saw shoot Caesar Young in the cab. But the problem was that there were no eyewitnesses to the shooting. And the heavy news coverage of Caesar's death had prompted a flood of letters to Nan's defense team and the district attorney's office from all these supposed witnesses. And it basically just caused this whole messy, again, situation where both sides were trying to outdo each other with false claims just to strengthen their cases. And instead of taking place in a courtroom where a judge could have controlled all this chaos,

it was taking place publicly in the newspapers pretty much by design because both sides knew that they were swaying the public's view with each story coming out. Now, like Millen's vague claims of Nance history with other men, the coroner and the district attorney also became willing participants in this media frenzy. And both with little, regard for truth or their professional obligations. They basically saw NAN's case as an opportunity to make a bigger name for themselves, and they were trying to capitalize on that. So day after day, public officials from the coroner to the police captain to the district

attorney were giving statements to the press where they made vague or unsubstantiated claims of Nans' guilt. And they would hint at having these few irrefutable pieces of evidence, but never produce any. For example, just one day before the grand jury was convened, the coroner made a statement to the press declaring, I have obtained sworn information which makes it certain that when the inquest is held, the jury will find this defendant responsible for the death of Caesar Young. Wow, that's confident. He didn't.

Shocked. Because when he was asked what this information was, he said, I can't share it with you right now. You know what? It goes to another school. You wouldn't know it. Yeah, exactly. She doesn't even go here. Very classic.

Yeah, exactly. So all the unfounded claims aside and media frenzy aside, the prosecutor did have a solid lead in a man named Hyman Stern. He was the pawn breaker, or pawnbroker. The pawnbroker. The pawnbroker who claimed to have sold the pistol used in Caesar's death. Now, shortly after Nanzarrest, this man, Stern, positively IDed the revolver that they'd found in Caesar's pocket

as the one he sold the Friday before Caesar's death. But when he was asked to identify Nan as the female of the couple who purchased this pistol together, he said, no, that's not her. So then the police theorized that it could have been Nan's sister who went to buy the gun with her husband, J. Morgan Smith. Because remember, they said Nan's sister was the one to maybe send Caesar those threatening letters that nobody ever saw. Of course. Those George Glass threatening letters. Exactly. They were like, maybe she was doing her sister solid.

It may be. Writing letters and buying guns. Yeah. Fucking sister. That's what I was going to say sibling shit. For real. Who's cow we taken? So despite a lack of evidence tying Nan to the shooting, the DA presented the case to a grand jury that included a considerable amount of questionable testimony from people they said witnessed the shooting.

And after hearing the evidence, the jury made the unconventional request to her NAN's account of events. But her counsel decided that it probably was not in her best. interest to go on the stand. It was a tough one. That is tough. On one side of things, she can sit there and, you know, tell the jury her side of events and hopefully they believe her. But then on the other side, what if they don't like her for some reason or like they don't believe her for some reason?

She doesn't give them the proper emotional response that they are looking for. Exactly. She gets backed into something that sounds a little fishy, you know, like it's really risky. It is. But that request alone definitely hinted that the jury wasn't entirely convinced by the prosecution's case because they're like, okay, like can we hear from her? Yeah. But still, Abe Levy and Nan's other lawyers viewed the request for her to testify as more of a risk like we were just saying than anything else. And as far as they were concerned, the evidence against Nan spoke for itself and it was telling an unconvincing story.

So they felt there was nothing to be gained by having her appear. Okay. Unfortunately, her refusal to appear in court did not help her case. I was going to say, I feel like it just would have been, why not? Yeah, you know, at this point, it's like, what do you have to lose? Tough call, though. I can see why they were like, fuck, what do we do here? But I feel like it would have been a better call to have her on there.

Yeah. In this case. And probably. Yeah. Because despite their previously indicated doubt, on June 13th, the grand jury returned an indictment of murder in the first degree against Nan Patterson. And on June 21st, she appeared before a judge. judge in General Sessions Court and her lawyers entered her into a plea of not guilty.

Now, from the moment Nan was found in the cab with Caesar, tons of news outlets from New York to California had made it clear that while they didn't know if she was responsible for Caesar's death or not, there was no doubt she was an unsavory character because she's an actress. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. She had that stage favor. And basically, that was their main focus. On June 5th, just one day after Caesar's death, the front page of the San Francisco call referred to Nan as a, quote, wrecker of the bookmaker's home. Oh my.

And when they talked about Caesar's wife, Margaret, they called her a beautiful and talented woman who has been credited by her husband with having lifted him from a position of poverty to one of affluence. Wow. Which, like, they should be nice about his wife. She got really fucking screwed over here. Yeah.

But, like, you don't know if Nan's guilty or not, so. It's like we're really just going with that guilty thing, huh? Exactly. And in reality, Caesar's wealth actually had not come from his wife. Yeah. And it's like, here's the thing. Nan did some bad shit.

100%. Like, that should be like, yeah. That's fucked up. She did wreck the bookmaker's home, but she was not alone in that. He too ruined his home. Yep, takes two to tango. Exactly. But the article in the call is the perfect example of the classism and misogyny that

surrounded all three of Nan's trials. Whoa. All three. Three. Yeah. Just strap in everybody. Get comfortable. Damn.

So quote-a-quot, home-wrecking aside, Nan's on-stage career was also looked down upon by many Americans, who, as author Carrie Sagrave pointed out, quote, looked upon females within the field as loose and generally immoral. So because she was part of this, like, traveling group of the Flora Dora girls and wanted to be an actress, they were like, ugh. They were like, gross. Nasty, what a ho.

Yeah. The other thing is, Nan barely spent any time acting, but throughout her trial she would constantly be referred to as the actress in like a mocking tone. The actress. And they, I think they honestly did that. That said like an insult. The actress. Imagine Gwyneth on her trial being like the actress.

The actress. Like what? But they clearly were hoping that that little piece of information about her life would sway the jury if they didn't like. Absolutely. It's a tactic. Couldn't put loose and generally immoral girls. Wow. Wild. So the trial, the first one, did get underway finally on November 15th, 1904, and the assistant

district attorney William Rand was acting as the prosecutor, and Abe Levy there was leading Nan's defense. So despite the media circus that surrounded the case, the trial, the first one, was pretty simple and straightforward. The prosecution alleged that Nan was afraid of losing Caesar, so she shot him in a jealous fit of rage. The assistant DA told the jury, we will show you that the wound which brought about his death could not have been self-inflicted and that the weapon which was used could not have been purchased by him or have belonged to him. Now at the time of the trial, Nan's sister and brother-in-law, the Smiths, who the prosecution believed had purchased the gun that killed Caesar,

they hadn't been located so they weren't able to be subpoenaed. Damn. But nevertheless, the district attorney made a show of calling the pawnbreaker. Why do I keep saying pawnbreaker? I don't know. I don't know at all. It's funny, though. It is funny.

You're welcome. The pawnbroker, Hyman Stern, the district attorney made a show of calling him to the stand so that they could show him photos of the Smiths, and they were hoping he'd be able to confirm that they were the people who bought the gun the night before the shooting. Okay. But what the jury didn't know was that Stern had already seen pictures of the couple and told the district attorney he did not recognize either of those people as the buyer of the pistol. All right. But coincidentally, when the time came for Stern to testify, the prosecutor's

office got word that he'd actually been stricken by appendicitis, and his testimony would have to wait. Oh. So, when asked whether the appendicitis had been brought on by the trial, Assistant DA William Rand, who had absolutely no way of knowing, replied, it may have been. In fact, I think that nervous strain which she's been under is the cause. Oh. You're a district attorney. You're not an actor. Let's not.

Now, the defense on the other hand, their argument, they maintained their assertion that Caesar had been drinking the morning of his death. His judgment was impaired by whiskey and no food. And he shot himself in a fit of what they called, quote unquote, alcoholically sentimental despair. Wow. What a name for it. I know.

So in support of their argument, the defense attorney Levy there called a man named Milton Hazleton to the witness stand. 78-year-old Hazleton had been in New York for a short trip in June, and he claimed he'd been walking down the street with an acquaintance when they came upon a handsome cab as it pulled to a stop. He claimed in the cab, quote, they saw a young man and woman facing each other with their hands clasped together. There was a commotion of some kind going on.

The young woman just then dropped her hands to her lap, and immediately the two witnesses noticed a revolver in the man's hand just, excuse me, in the man's hand and heard it go off. This is so complex. It is. And it's interesting because at certain times they're like, nobody saw this happen. That's the thing. And then they're like, this guy saw this happen.

And they're like, look, an eyewitness who has every single view of every angle of this crime. And it's like, wow, okay. That's the thing. And the problem here is that the Kansom Kapp didn't come to a stop before. Yeah, it was because of the sound. It pulled over after the shot. Yeah. So I don't know about this witness.

that the defense called. In my opinion, I don't know if this man saw what he saw. Yeah. Or what he said he saw. I don't know. But his testimony was corroborated by a second witness, John Latour, I believe is how you say it. He was coming out of a nearby drug store, excuse me, when the shot was fired. And he said, quote, as the cab passed me, I heard a shot fired.

Okay. So in his statement, the crab is moving. Which makes more sense. I looked into the cab and saw a pistol in the right hand. of the man who sat there on the right side of the cab. When the cab had gone half a block further, it stopped. I climbed up on the step and looked in. The man still held the pistol.

Okay. But that's confusing because had he already shot himself, the gun at that point had fallen into his pocket. So you wouldn't have, if he had just shot himself and the gun fell, he wouldn't still be holding it. And it's like, did it fall? Because I was more confused when they were talking about how, I think Nan said,

He shot himself, then put the gun in his pocket. She said the gun fell in his pocket. Oh, okay. I thought she made it like, because I was going to say maybe he didn't die right away and he was able to place that in his pocket before. I don't know why he would, but like, who knows? She said he had shot himself and then the gun fell into his pocket. Oh.

See, that's less believable to me. That's what I felt, too. It's more believable to me that he would just take, he would quickly put in his pocket before succumbing. Yeah. Hmm. It's interesting. that yeah see so it all just kind of like when you look at this eyewitness yeah these two eyewitnesses

yeah and then and then it's like and then she and then her fingerprints were on the gun and she said she touched it by bringing it out of his pocket and putting it back in so it's like did she fuck up and did the gun not fall in his pocket but she put it in his pocket and then you didn't want to say that and maybe this eyewitness did see the gun in his hand possibly she just put it this Maybe she picked it up out of his hand and then like put it in his pocket like, holy shit. Yeah, that could have happened. Absolutely. You know, like you're just just to like pick it up like, holy shit, what happened here and then like, oop. Well, and there you have it reasonable doubt.

That's the thing. Like right there. Look at me. Lawyering. But it's like that could have been it. And maybe Nan was mistaken or didn't want to just say. But maybe she was just mistaken. She could have been so. Well, because remember, they interviewed her literally like a few minutes after this happened. Maybe she was just in shock, anxious, and was like, yeah, I picked it up out of his pocket and put it back in. Maybe what she did was take it out of his hand, hold it first, and be like, holy shit, and just drop it in his pocket. Possibly. And maybe that lines up more with what this white eyewitness is saying.

Yeah. And then I should say the first one, I was like, well, I don't know about that because the cab hadn't stopped at that point. He said as it pulled to a stop. Oh, okay. So it was moving. All right. So that's the defense there. All right.

But the prosecution in the absence of Hyman Stern, the pawn breaker, L.O.L. in the absence of his testimony, they had to rely on the little forensic evidence that they had. So on November 22nd, a representative for the coroner's office arrived in court with a teaching skeleton that he wanted to use to show the trajectory of the bullet from the point of entry. Evidence they felt would show

Caesar couldn't have fired the shot himself. Okay. So they wanted to bring in this whole skeleton and do this whole, like, fucking... Which I'm for, let's go. Yeah, what would you call it? Like reenactment, I don't know. But name.

And's attorney Levy immediately objected to the skeleton, quote, on the ground that the skeleton was that of a man smaller than the bookmaker of whose murder his client is accused. So he was saying that skeleton is smaller than Caesar. Okay. So it won't be accurate. I mean, yeah. If you want to do it, get a skeleton. That's the same size of saying.

Yeah, if you're going to do it. I mean, I'm sure. Do it right. Yeah. Now, the judge actually overruled the objection and allowed the presentation. That's the word I was looking for. the presentation to continue. There you go. But later, even the press would admit that the coroner's demonstration, quote, did not settle the question whether the wound, which was fatal to young,

could have been self-inflicted. So they went to the trouble of doing this entire presentation, and it honestly just seemed to confuse people more than anything. Yeah, because like when you really, that's the thing that I'm hung up on. It's like, he's saying he was hugging her and reached around her to shoot himself. I'm like, that's, yeah, that does seem like a lot. It absolutely does. But remember he was most likely drunk. Yeah, but it just seems like a very awkward. It does. Thing.

It absolutely does. And I'm like, and I'm also kind of shocked that, well, I guess back then they were a lot of layers, women. Because I was going to say, I'm a little shocked that she doesn't have any kind of mark from the gun. Because it was probably like against her a little bit. Yeah. When he did it, you know, like, well, I don't know, because. Because I'm trying to, like, reach me. my arms? I mean, I have short arms. Maybe that's what this is about. Because I couldn't get that

angle. That's the thing. I couldn't get that angle either because they said that it went below his shoulder. Because at first, actually, when I'm actually having a realization right now, because when I was reading it, I thought it went through the front of his body. But now that I'm presenting this again, it sounds like it went through the back of his body. Or it went the front in his shoulder. Oh, yeah. For some reason, I always think of shoulder as like through the back. Yeah. I think it was the front of his body, but like up in his shoulder area? Yeah. Or towards his shoulder area. And then when like, like angled down toward the lunch, which would make, but it's, which makes sense if you're hugging, I guess. But it's just, that's a, that would be, I'm curious to like think of like, did they do any, like, real life demonstration of like two humans hugging? Yeah. To try to make sure that that's even.

I didn't find anything to say that they did do that. Because that's just like, I'm even like looking at like a pillow and being like, I couldn't. I couldn't reach around. But again, I'm a five-foot-one woman. And it's like, so maybe he had a whole different stature. Like, who knows? Some people have really long arms. And it sounds like he was pretty tall because the skeleton they were going to bring in was not as tall as him.

And Nan had to be 5'4. And 130 pounds to be a Florida dancer. So she's pretty petite. So she's pretty petite. I don't know. So, yeah, think about hugging somebody. It introduces. Like when I hug you, honestly, we should try to reenact it.

I know we should be similar. Because if I hugged you, I feel like I could get my arm all the way around you and then, like, be able to point a gun at my chest. Yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah. The whole thing is very, it makes you just go, huh. That's the thing. And I think, I mean, we'll see that the jury themselves each time was like, huh. This is interesting.

I know, because it's just like, I have so many questions. It is. But like, none of which I can answer or even, like, I have questions. but I'm like, I know I can't get the answer to this. Yeah. No, it is. It is an interesting case. So a little less than two weeks into the trial, the case looked like it was headed in Nan's favor, actually, because everybody, again, is having all these reasonable doubts.

In addition to the testimony from those two eyewitnesses, Hazleton and Latour, there was testimony from the man who drove Nan's cab the evening before the shooting. And he told the jury that Caesar Young, quote, was very much under the influence of liquor, abused the girl who, was accused of his murder. Oh, wow. And after cursing her, struck her and forced her crying into the cow. Oh, my God. So they were like, he was shitty. Wow.

And that was, because remember, they had gone to dinner the night before. Yeah, with his brother-in-law, chaperoned. Yeah. And then they got into a cab to leave. And evidently, according to this man, at least, he was horrible to her. It was a bad situation. But just when things seemed to be going well for the defense, everything fell apart on November 27th when one of the jurors had a stroke

and was listed by his doctors as being in serious condition. So because there was no alternate juror in the case, a mistrial was declared and a new trial was scheduled for early December. Wow. So she may have been on her way to winning this trial. Oh, the momentum was totally broken.

And because they didn't have an alternate juror, they had no choice but to just redo everything. Yeah. Nan spoke to the press immediately after, after telling them, it is very hard. I had helped choose that jury and felt confident of its fairness. Wow. That sucks.

So hard for her. And then her statement about helping choose that jury came back to haunt her. Because her second trial got underway on December 5th, 1904, with the selection of a new jury. That's how it all started, obviously. And the process was immediately sensationalized by the press. Because most media outlets were claiming that Nan was handpicking jurors. since she had said, like, I helped pick the jury. This time they were like, she's picking people based entirely on who would be most sympathetic.

In reality, she had some input, but the jury selection was conducted as it always had been. It was a collaborative process all the way through. Yeah, because that's wild to think of somebody having, like, you. Like, you can. You, please. But that didn't stop reporters from claiming that Nan had deliberately selected a jury of exclusively, quote-unquote, gray-haired men. The implication being they'd be swayed by her beauty and charm. Come on.

Like really? Come on. So, again, sensationalized. Is it totally out of the realm of possibility? No. No. Because back then it's like... But it didn't happen.

It doesn't make sense. No, and it did not happen. It's also like, back then, weren't they all juries of gray-haired old men? Pretty much. Wasn't that pretty much like the standard reading card? At that point, it was not a jury of your peers. No, that's the thing. So I'm like, I think she probably knew that there was a certain upper hand to there.

Of course. No. Slim pickings. Yeah. So jury selection was completed on December 8th, and this time they had the forethought to choose alternate jurors. Ah, there you go. I know. I'm like, wait a...

Why would you not think that? Don't prepare. I know. Since very little time had passed between the first and second trial, William Rand's opening statement remained more or less the same as it had when he gave it a month earlier. He said, Nan was a quote, vampire murderess and wrecker of homes. Damn. Murderous. Those are some giant labels.

A vampire. Like, wow. That came out of left field. Yep. And he said, Caesar had bluntly in no uncertain terms explained he was leaving. The relationship was over. Nan was enraged by this rejection and the jealousy of Caesar's wife.

So she shot him with the revolver that was purchased at the pawn shop by her sister and her brother-in-law the previous evening. Damn. Wow. So one of the first witnesses called was a man named Frederick Michaels, who was the cab driver, who drove Nan and Caesar's cab that morning. In his previous testimony, he told the jury, due to his position behind the cab, he didn't see anything that happened.

And this time, he reiterated his story in surprisingly less detail than the previous month, which caused a lot of people in the courtroom to speculate that he had suffered some kind of memory loss since his last court appearance. Actually, after he'd been questioned by the defense and prosecution, one of the jurors chimed in him was like, do you think you can remember where you were born?

because he seemed that confused. Wow. And he paused for a moment and then said, in New York. But he's like, you know what? He did have to think about it. No, so that was interesting. People were a little bit confused about that. And a few days into the trial,

assistant DA Rand caused a whole last stir in the courtroom when during his questioning of Captain Sweeney, he attempted, without any evidence, to establish Nan's sister and her husband as co-conspirators in the shooting. Wow. He implied that the Smiths were fugitive. in that they had failed to appear in court for questioning,

with the implication being that if the Smiths were innocent and played no role in the death, why would they have fled? Because they couldn't be located at that point. And it's like they didn't flee. It's like you can't just introduce that to the, like, yeah, you can't just say they fled without any proof that they fled or were just gone. No, there was none.

Yeah. And before Sweeney, Captain Sweeney, who was on the stand at that point, could respond. Abe Levy, the defense attorney, objected, and the jury was excused while both. sides made their arguments and tried to figure this whole thing out. Levy correctly pointed out that there was no evidence of the Smith's having been served a warrant or a subpoena. So they were free to move about the country in any way they pleased. Wow, this is so messy. It's insane. And other than their relationship to NAND, there was still no evidence that they were in any way connected to the shooting.

Like the pawn breaker himself said like, no, I don't recognize those people. Yeah, so what are we doing here? But the DA or the assistant DA Rand responded saying, evidence has been introduced to to show Smith and his wife were with the defendant, engaged in earnest conversation before she met Caesar Young on the night preceding the murder. And it's like, that's cool. All you're saying is she saw her sister and brother-in-law the night before the murder and they had a conversation.

And it's like these aren't, that would even not really work with even if it was like a friend of hers. You know, like, yeah, you can see your friends the night before something happens and that doesn't mean that that person's involved. But it's her sister. Yeah. who it sounds like she's pretty close with she lived with her at this point

she was living with her so it's like she saw the person that is closest to her that she lives with the night before so they must be involved it's like I don't know about that exactly so it was clear to Rand or excuse me it was clear that Rand was doing his best to obscure facts here and try to strengthen his case but fortunately

the judge agreed with the defense and refused to allow Rand to go any further with his line of questioning after doing that so he kind of fucked himself there yeah I'm like I mean it's like you should didn't be able to lie like that, so I'm glad. But things got worse for him later that afternoon when the pawn broker, Hyman Stern,

ended up taking the stand he had recovered. Now, as we know, the prosecution had really been amping up his testimony and being like, this is going to be like the ticket to prosecuting her or to getting a guilty here. They were making it seem like this whole thing could be done with his testimony. Now, when he was finally on the stand, their assertions of a conspiracy were quickly falling apart. Not only was the jury informed that he had failed to identify Smith or his wife in the photos, but now he was even more vague. The New York Times reported that Stern, quote,

recalled the sale of the pistol but could give no adequate description of the parties who made the purchase. So he couldn't even remember that anymore. I was just going to say, so he, yeah. And previously he had looked at a photo of the Smiths and was like, no, it wasn't them. I don't recognize it. And now he's like, I don't even remember at this point. Oh, shit. This is bad.

This is not helpful at all. So Rand's attempts to enter into the evidence, the supposedly threatening letters sent to Caesar by Nan's sister were equally unsuccessful. So he's just doing a fucking nosed-dive at this point. Like the questions directed to Sweeney, Rand hoped the letters would imply guilt on the part of the Smiths and established them as co-conspirators. But defense attorney Levy successfully objected, arguing. that the letters were not written by the defendant and had no bearing on the case. Oh, damn.

And that was... Damn. Yeah. So on December 19th, as the case neared its end, Nan actually took the stand for the first time to testify in her own defense. In addition to proving several details about her own life,

which basically included her limited time as a Florida girl, her teenage marriage, they were asking her very pointed questions. Yeah. And then she got into her relationship with Caesar. And she said, Caesar had instructed her to pretend to agree to the breakup when in front of family and friends, saying he told me to say I was willing to go away, but that was all a bluff, that he didn't want me to go away at all. It was necessary for me to say I was going away, he explained, for Mrs. Young's peace of mind. Oh, my.

So she's saying, you may have seen like this whole argument and shit like that the night before, but I was never going anywhere. Wow. Which like, this is all very icky. Man, that's not good. Like, this is very icky. Now, during her testimony, she contradicted most of the assertions made by Rand and the District Attorney's Office. She said, this actually was not going to be the end of her relationship at all, and that Caesar was going to send for her once he'd settled in Europe. And then she said she had no idea that her sister had written any letters to Caesar, and

she definitely didn't tell her to. And, most importantly, she said, I was not in the pawn shop the night before the shooting, and I did not ask my sister or my brother-in-law to purchase any. any gun for me. I didn't need one. Oh, man. Then she explained to the jury that on the morning of the shooting, Caesar had picked her up at her hotel. She agreed to go with him, but she actually had no idea where they were going. And she said Caesar was disappointed at having to leave her, but insisted that she would join him, quote, after things had quieted down and Miss Young had forgotten me. And then Nan told Caesar, she still loved him, but she didn't think she could uproot her life

and leave to Europe. And at that point, Caesar got irrationally upset. And she said, he asked, do you really mean that, Nan? I've lost a lot of money, and now I'm going to lose my girl. Oh, boy. And she said, after Caesar pushed back, she relented and agreed to join him in Europe a short time later. But then she said, he grabbed me and pressed me to him with such force that it hurt me badly. As I did so, I heard a muffled report, and he fell forward in my lap. I saw no pistol. He half rose again, I began to scold him not realizing what had happened. Then he fell forward again and I couldn't attract his attention. What the fuck?

That's what I wanted to hear was exactly how this went down and I'm even more confused now. That's the thing. So basically she's saying the whole plan was that I was going to join him in Europe. He picked me up the next morning. I didn't know where we were going. I kind of thought we were just meeting one last time. And then I told him, I don't know if I can uproot my whole entire life and go to Europe. We fought a little bit about it.

I relented and then he shot himself. Okay. Which is a little confusing because if she relented and was like, okay, I'll go. And then he shot himself. That doesn't make a lot of sense. But he's drunk so maybe he misheard her and still thought she wasn't into this whole idea. Yeah. Or maybe didn't believe her when she was like, no, never mind, I'll go with you.

Yeah, maybe. And he's about to leave and go to Europe. Yeah. I'm very confused. It's so confusing. There's not one part of me that knows what happened here. I can tell you that. Nobody knows.

Certainly not me. No. So Nan's accounts of the events before and after Caesar shooting, they had remained consistent from the moment she was arrested. But this was the first time most people heard this version of the story. Because the press had always presented the death as either a murder or a suicide. And the prosecution had always maintained their belief that there was no way it was anything but murder. Mm-hmm.

And in the press, it was. Nann was presented as this low-class homewrecker whose immoral behavior had either directly or indirectly caused the death of a man she claimed to love. But frankly, no one ever considered the death could be an accident because they just looked at Nand and saw what they wanted to see. That's very true. And now she's sitting here saying, maybe it was an accident. Like, I don't know. I'm like, was he trying to shoot her? Maybe.

And like, if, you know what I mean? trying to shoot her in the back? I don't know. I'm not going to lodge that allegation at him, but I'm just saying like this... It's just a question. There's a gun. Yeah.

A gun went off in there. And he's upset with her. And there's three possibilities. They had a fight. It's either there was going to be a murder-suicide situation. Mm-hmm. That he did it to himself via that hug. Yeah.

Or she did it to him. Yeah. Because I don't think it would have just been that he would shoot her and then move on with his life. I think if that was the case that it was supposed to be, then it would be a murder-suicide situation. That is what it sounds like. Yeah. Do you think possibly he was trying to shoot her and thought the bullet would go through her and into him because they were hugging? That would be pretty risky.

Yeah. I don't know. There's like this is just such a confusing, a tiny space. Yeah. Two people in a gun. That's the thing because nobody... Like these people can claim they saw it and who knows maybe they did. But exactly.

And it's small. Like there's not a lot of room in here. It's not like somebody stood somewhere and we can get a trajectory that way. Like this is a very confusing situation. And a very confusing spot to be shot in. Yeah. Two. Because it's not like, you know, I mean, it's graphic.

But it's not like it's in the head or the mouth or something like that that you would expect. Yeah. That's a below the shoulder. Because that's not even a real surefire thing. No. And what if it failed? What are you doing now? Who knows maybe he wasn't aiming for that specific area?

Because I remember he's drunk. Yeah. I don't know. Again, nobody knows. This is very bizarre. It is. So, in Assistant D.A. Rans closing arguments, he told the jury,

I give her credit for all her cleverness, and I accord my recognition to the people who got up to the story she told. But actress says she, Actress as she is, stony-hearted, cruel, avenging adventurous. I say to you that the tales she would have you all believe would not carry conviction in the mind of a child. Wow. He was very theatrical. Theatrical.

Diabod. So after 11 hours of deliberation in the second trial now, the jury foreman reported to the judge that they were hopelessly deadlocked with 10 in favor of acquittal and just two in favor of conviction. Honestly, it makes sense to me that there would be done locked because it's so confusing. I have no idea what happened in that car. I could not tell you either. Nobody does. And that's, I mean, that's a lot of responsibility, too, to be like, I think we should acquit her, but fuck, what if she did do this?

That's the thing. Or I think we should convict her, but fuck, what if she didn't do this? So the judge in the case, Vernon Davis, reminded the jury of their duty and asked that they returned to deliberation and try again. But they returned a little over an hour later saying they had deadlocked and so, and now they saw no way forward. And after talking with the jury foreman, Judge Davis returned to the bench and told the assembled crowd,

quote, I have been informed that the jury stood for six for acquittal and six for conviction. Wow. Now, under those circumstances, he had no choice but to declare a mistrial. And once that was declared, Rand Wendell and very publicly declared his intent to proceed with a third trial. So...

This is wild. It's just so long and it's like, it gets more confusing. as we go. Every single time. We're not clearing a damn thing up as we go through these trials. And we won't. No. So unlike the brief period between the first and second trials, there was an almost four-month gap between the second and

third trial, during which William Jerome and the district attorney's office did literally everything they could do to continue pushing Nan's guilt in the press. They really use the press to their advantage here. Just one day after the second mistrial Christmas Day, Rand and Jerome

called a press conference to announce their intention to pursue the third trial. And despite proving herself no flight risk or potential threat to the community, Jerome told reporters, under the circumstances, I will oppose to the release of Nan Patterson on bail in any amount. Which that was a move he hoped would emphasize her guilt. Of course. She hasn't done anything.

She's just been sitting in jail. And you're not like really. Now, when the final trial did finally begin on April 18th, 1905, Rand and the district attorney's office were pushing for a jury. of all married men, thinking they would be less inclined to be swayed by Nan's charm and beauty. And in the time between the second and third trials, the Smith's, Nan's sister and brother-in-law, had actually filed suit against Jerome in the district attorney's office, alleging slander and harassment. Whoa.

And noting that on the advice of their attorney, they stayed away from the case altogether. They had never actually been subpoenaed for anything. And their attorney was like, just don't touch that with a 10-foot pole. Damn, I don't blame them. Now, in addition to that, Rand claimed to have come into possession of these letters sent by the Smiths to Caesar Young, but refused to produce them in court or hand them over to the Smith's lawyer, which is literally just another example of him having no real evidence in a crime, but making vague and dramatic allusions to the press. Yeah. And it's like, you're sitting there in a legit court case under oath saying you have these letters, but no one has seen them. That's it.

And it's like, just produce them, man. Yeah. Produce them if you have them. You don't have them. Exactly. So now that is a whole separate piece. And while the Smith's lawyers argued with the district attorney's office, Nann's criminal trial proceeded as expected. In most ways, the third trial was exactly like the other two. Yeah. Same witnesses giving the same testimony. But this time, the defense had committed more time to the analysis of the coroner's report and produced their own expert witness who claimed to the jury that the trajectory of the bullet entering under the left shoulder at a downward trajectory. trajectory. God. Would have been consistent with Nan's story of an accidental shooting.

And similarly, the coroner reported that while they found no powder marks on Nan's fingers after the shooting, they did find powder on Caesar's fingers indicating that he held the gun when it went off. And that's pretty... That's telling. Yeah. Like, there was no powder on her hands. I don't think she shot that gun.

Yeah. I don't, I really don't. And it's like, how would she have gotten gunpowder residue off her hands? This is in the 1800s. Was she wearing gloves? She's a fancy gal. That's true. Fancy gals wore gloves back then.

Little delicate gloves. So I don't know anything about that, to be honest. But I do feel like the prosecution's office would have argued that if they could have. That's true. You know, like they would have been like, well, she was wearing gloves. Of course they're, I mean, they were going for anything and everything. Yeah, that's true. So I don't know.

I mean, it's possible. But I feel like the defense wouldn't sit there and be like, there was nothing on her hands with the chance that she was wearing gloves. Unless this is like a dirty situation and they made sure those gloves were nowhere to be found. Which it could be, absolutely. And it's like then the prosecution can't say she was wearing gloves if they don't have gloves to say that she was. That's true. The only thing is...

What they should have done was talk to the driver and be like, did you see her wearing gloves? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because why wouldn't anyone bring that up even just to throw? it in the minds of the jury. Yeah. That maybe there was gloves involved, but we didn't find any,

but you never know. She was taken really quickly to the police station. Yeah. But that gun went off. She's still, like, it wasn't like the police literally emerged on to this,

like converged onto the place the second the gun went off. Like, she could have stashed it. But remember, they said her fingerprints could have been on the gun. So I don't think she was wearing gloves. They said she picked up the gun.

Unless she took the gloves off and picked up the gun and put it back. Yeah? Who knows? I'm just saying there's like a possibility. It is a possibility. That she was wearing gloves. Another reasonable doubt.

Or a handkerchief? Fancy handkerchief that she had her hand. But then why would his fingers also have gunpowder residue on him? Because maybe it was his gun. No, he had gunpowder residue like on his hands. Yeah, that's true. I don't know. I don't think she shot it.

Yeah, just doesn't. I was trying to figure out of something. way for it to work. No, I'm glad you did. But to me, that's pretty like open and shut then. That's what you think. That's what you think. I mean, like, I just tried. There's no way to, you can explain that maybe she could have. And like, you can explain why she doesn't have the residue on her hands, technically, if you wanted to get like wild with it like I just did. Yeah. But you can't explain why he does. Exactly. Without saying he shot the gun. That was fun, though. That was a nice little exercise we just did. Interesting. That was, yeah, I know. I don't know. I don't

no. So that's what that's what the defense was doing. They were like, he's got gun. They're being like, this is open shut. He shot the gun. He has gunpowder residue. She doesn't. Yeah. But on the other side of things, still convinced that the pawn broker there was the key to a conviction. This guy already said, I don't know shit about shit. Poor guy just keeps getting called because Rand called him again to the stand to testify. and he wanted him to identify the Smiths as the buyer of the gun. But when the time came and Rand asked Stern whether he could identify the Smiths as the buyers, the pawnberger said, no, sir, I cannot.

Now, Rand clearly expected a different answer and was stunned by Stern's statement and asked several more times if he was sure, and each time he was given the same response, nope, I cannot identify the Smiths or Nan Patterson as the individual who purchased the gun. please don't subpoena me again, I'm busy. I don't know shit about shit. I have a pawn shop to run. It's also a pawn shop broker.

I'm sure he's like, leave me out of this shit. Yeah, like, I'm good. Even if I remember something, I don't remember something. Exactly. So, on May 3rd, 1905, the jury adjourned for deliberation. And much like the previous trial, they emerged at 2.30 a.m. to report that they were deadlocked. Oh, my God.

The court recorder stressed to the form in that after three trials and considerable effort. There was a lot riding on a unanimous verdict, either guilty or innocent, but like, fucking figure it out. But the foreman insisted there was no hope. And a short time later, all of the relevant parties were brought back into the courtroom where the foreman

was formally asked whether the jury had reached a verdict, and he said, we have not. Oh, my Lord. I am convinced that there is no hope of an agreement. No. I am also convinced of that. And with that, a third mistrial was declared. But this time,

even assistant district attorney there Rand admitted a fourth trial was highly unlikely. So on May 12th, 1905, after three exhausting trials, Nan Patterson was released from the tombs and allowed to leave New York a free woman. But she had spent over a year in jail, close to two. And despite having essentially lost the case, William Jerome, the district attorney, held a press conference in an attempt to save face. He told reporters, there was unanimity. I can never say that. unanimity in the jury room on three points that J. Morgan Smith bought the pistol from the pawnbroker stern, that Nan Patterson took the pistol into the cab with her and that Caesar Young did not commit suicide. Wow. Like that's not true because if there had been unanimity,

you wouldn't be sitting here right now saying that. Like shut up. Yeah. So following the mistrial and her eventual release, Nan returned to her parents home in Washington, D.C. And in a wild fucking twist of events in September of 1905, she remarried her former husband Leon Gaines Martin. Shut the fuck up. And just faded out of the spotlight into obscurity. What?

But not surprisingly, the marriage did not last long, even the second time around. And they divorced with Nan getting married for a third time in 1910, this time to a man named Captain Sumner Scott. And they lived outside of Seattle until her death in 1947 at the

age of 65. Wow. And nobody knows whether or not she killed Caesar Young. Wow. Now that we've gone through this, I kind of feel like she didn't. I kind of feel like she didn't either. Because why would there be gun residue on his hands? That's what I can't get past. I can't get past that.

If neither one of them had it on their hands, I'd be like, all right, well, some shit went down here, and I'd be more likely to be like she might have worn gloves. I think the thing is, it's just like a very strange circumstance. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you don't, I've never heard of another.

case like this. And there's, and it's, there's like motive. Absolutely. There's all the motive in the world. I think that's where it gets shady and hairy is like, you can sit there and go, but you know what, I'm like, I can see why. Like, this motive is here. But then you look at the, the very few facts. That's the other thing. There's so little evidence here of anything. And where you can say there's motive for murder, you can also say there's motive for him to end his life. He had just lost a ton of money, according to Nanna at least. and she was losing his sidepiece. Yeah. And she wasn't willing to go to Europe with him. And maybe he was knowing that, you know, he has fucked over his wife so many times. She's going to be, it's going to be a tough road back to redemption for him. And he has to go to Europe and try to forget about that.

And try to fix the relationship while trying to forget about the person that he is claiming. He loves. Yeah. So, and then he was drunk. Yep. What a strange fucking tale. Whatever happened here, it's really sad. Thank you to Dave because Dave is the one that found this one.

Oh, man. It was interesting. That's really wild. Yeah, I'll be interested to see what people think. Yeah, I'm very interested to see. My feeling is that he shot that gun. Yeah. But I can't tell you anything further than that.

I don't know. I don't know how I don't know. I'm almost positive he shot that gun because of the gunpowder residue. Yeah, that's me too. And I just don't know if he meant to kill himself or if he meant to kill NAN or if he meant to kill both of them. I just don't know. I don't know. But what a story, huh?

That's a wild tale. And with that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you lie about a bunch of stuff in the press because, like, you know, that's annoying. Thank you.