Morbid - Morbid Book Club: Killing The Boogeyman by Richard Chizmar

Episode Date: September 25, 2026

Weirdos! We are stoked to bring you this special Bonus MORBID BOOK CLUB episode, #sponsored by our friends at @ashleyofficial ! This month we are joined by the incredible Richard Chizmar to chat about his upcoming release, Killing the Boogeyman available everywhere on 10/6/2026! Richard takes us behind the scenes of the writing process of this series that blends memoir and horror, talks about ticking of not one- BUT TWO dream collaborations off of his bucket list, and what it’s like to spend YEARS willingly inviting the Boogeyman into your brain! #ashleypartner Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This super special book club episode is brought to you by Ashley. Now is the time to write the newest chapter in your home story. As the largest furniture store brand in North America, Ashley can help you create a comfortable, functional, and might I add, very stylish home that you can feel proud of, and all in a price range that works for you. With lifestyle-driven designs, you don't have to choose between being practical and being stylish.

Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your style. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Elena. I'm Rich. And this is a very special episode of Morbid. It is. We have a special guest, Richard Chisholmarr. Welcome to the show.

Welcome. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming. Yeah. We've just been hanging and chatting for a little while. Already great vibes to start off. The vibes are immaculate here. I feel like I've known you guys for a long time already.

Right? Yeah, we're homes. And I feel like we've been trading arcs back and forth for a little while. I feel like so we're getting to know each other. here. And you have a new book in the series, the boogeyman series, killing the boogeyman. It's coming out October 6th. I've got to read this ahead of time, and I feel very lucky. I'm jealous. I love this series so much. I'm going to steal your arc. I love stealing your arcs. You can still the arc. Thank you. Thank you. It's awesome. And it's such a good conclusion to the series.

It's kind of crazy. I know. Seeing them all right here. It must be to see them all lined up, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, especially because there was never supposed to be a second book. Oh, really? No, never. Oh, really? Nope. This was just supposed to stop at the first one? Yeah.

I would have been sad. Writing about myself for one book was enough. Yeah. I actually remember telling my editor and my agent, I'm like, that's it. That's it's it's all I got. And I'll be honest, even though the first one was like a surprise hit, no one was like banging down my door saying, we need a second one. Really?

And then I was mowing the lawn one day. It's crazy as that sounds. And like in a five-minute span, I had the idea for the entire first chapter, coming the boogeyman, which ends with a, with a, and I never say this about my work because I envy those writers who are like, I can't wait until you read my next book. It's great. Oh, yeah. Because I'm always like, well, I'm like, hopefully you like it. If you decide you hate it, I hope you don't figure that out until you spent the $29 on it. You both have that in common. So I get my royalty. Yeah, just for the, for the first time, I just knew that chapter was good. And it ended on that twist that

connected so strongly to the first book. So I remember thinking, if anyone can read that first chapter and not, you know, if they're standing in the store reading it and they read it and they can't, they don't take it up to the register, I'll be shocked. Yeah. So, you know, it just fit that neatly. So I was like, okay, I have to write it. And then just through discussions with my, my editor, he, you know, he's like, yeah, it's got to be a trilogy. Yeah, he's always having to be a trilogy. Nice. You got to. You know. I loved it. That first chapter immediately hooked me and just the idea of chasing the boogeyman got me right away because I picked it up in the fiction section. But as I'm reading it, like looking through it, I was like, is this real?

Like, this feels real. And the more I read it, the more I was like, you made that feel so real. That's several times. I knew, again, I got it in the fiction section. I knew it was not real. But several times I was like, is this real? Are you sure? Because you nailed the true crime book vibes for that.

I love true crime. So that was the thing. It's like, you know, I've always thought, you know, if there was a local case and it was the right thing and I felt like I could add something to the stories and, you know, in a dignified way and honor the victims and the survivors, you know, maybe I do it because I actually kind of enjoy research. Yeah. Even though I write books where I just, you know, I don't have to do research or just make it up. There's always something to research. But yeah, I always thought if that came and then when I sat down to write this story, I thought, you know what, I'm going to write this. It's the photos, I think, that did it for a lot of people. The photos, that's what kept making me go back and Googling whether this was real because

they came out so real. And it felt like a true crime book. Oh, I bet. You know how most photos in a true crime books, they're all in one spot. Yeah, they're always in the middle. Which I don't like. It was like in the middle. They make sense.

I know it's cheaper to print and they put it on the glossy paper sometimes so it's nice. So you know it's there. But I always find myself flipping back and forth because I want to see what this person looks like. Yep. Whether it's the good guy, the bad guy, the detective, you know, the senator who gave, of the press commerce, whoever it is. I want to see what they look like. Right. I want to see what that crime scene looks like, you know, and in the good true crime books, they're, you know, the crime scenes aren't bloody or gory. They're just like trampled

down grass behind a shed. Yeah. But it adds so much to that moment when you're reading about it. Yeah. Exactly. So I knew I wanted photos and I knew I wanted to put them at the end of each chapter. Yeah. I loved that. Yeah. That's exactly how I am. I end up like flipping through and being like, what is this person looks like, okay, I'm going to vote back. Yeah, you got to like remind yourself throughout the book. So it was nice that you had them all condensed into each thing. And I think it gave that immediate reinforcement that, hey, what I just read was that because who's dumb enough to take a bunch of fake photos?

I am, you know. And they look real. It's hard to like stage those kind of photos. Right. And not have them look like, you know what I mean? Like really like fake. And I was like, these look too real to be fake. That must have been so fun to do.

They were so much fun. And that's the thing. Again, most photos in true crime. books they're not exciting no you know they and so that's that was the goal is to have them be you know very mundane side right right yeah um you know which is hard when it's lifelong friends you know dressed up in thrift clothes suits to be serious to be the detective and you're like stop it stop flexing your jaw you know stop sucking in your stomach yeah so you know the photos were the most fun part there's times when i mean my son and i took most of them but we had you know

some of the actors from the short films we've done together you know some of them came back They have wardrobe, so they were cheap, thank God. Oh, I love it. And willing to do it. But the photos are almost the most fun. They are, because I feel like any, like, I'm like, oh, I'm jealous. Like, I want to take photos for my books now. You can.

You know, like, I'm like, that's so fun. Yes, you can. Because just to be able to visualize it, too, along with it, I feel like that's such an added bonus to it. Definitely. Well, the original idea for chasing the boogeyman was to Blair Witch, the audience, completely. Yes. We heard about that.

And I'm so sad that you couldn't. Yeah. I mean, it really quickly. I was thrilled at Simon Schlesinger Gallery bought it, so don't get me wrong. But then I was really bummed once I had those phone conferences with the legal department. And they were telling me, it wasn't even like a close call. It wasn't like, well, we're going to think about it. It was just like, rich, no.

You'll get sued. We'll get sued. Everybody, it's a no way. It's a great talk. Thanks. I'm just like, but I have plans. And they're like, no. I'm like, but I have a fake website to post online.

Oh, God. It looks like it got updated to like the mid-90s and then it just stopped. That'd be so sick. I have fake newspaper articles. Yeah. I had all this stuff planned. And what's funny is, is ultimately I wanted to script like a three-part podcast. Oh.

And have someone. Which would have gone along perfect. Oh, my gosh, yes. And I would be one of the guests and, you know, the detective would be a guest and some of my friends. And I'm just like, that would be fun. That would be great promo to you. It really would. Yeah.

I still might do that one day. I was going to say, I feel like you could. Yeah. It is waste to get us. Just put some money aside for when you get sued, you know? Yeah. It's fine. Like, that's all.

Just be prepared. Because as someone who was around for that Blair Witch original marketing, like, I try to tell, I've told Ash before. I'm so jealous. That was the best marketing. And we'll never get that kind of marketing back. Because it was like right in the beginning of like when the internet was exploding. I was going to say damn internet.

That's what it is. It's like two. There was nothing but pluses back then. Yeah. And that was, and I remember looking at that Blair Witch website and being like, this is real. Like,

I'm looking at real footage. Oh, and when they did the documentary. Yeah. That sealed it for, you know, I mean, I'm gullible as it is.

I was so gullible. Oh, I would have been too. I'm a believer like, you know, it's like, Rich hasn't changed. He's still,

you know, he thinks he's seen Bigfoot, you know, he believes in the Lochness monster, even though he's never been anywhere near there. No, same. Same.

You're in your place. He's seen him. He sensed them. He believes in them. Yes. You're in a safe place here. Yeah, yeah. I figured.

Yeah. I love it. And I, yeah, even if I'm not, I'm like, I can't pretend I'm anything other. Remember the childlike enthusiasm? Yeah, let's guess. Yeah. That's just there. Hell yeah.

So, yeah. So for me, it was natural. And I wanted to, you know, the documentary for Blair Witch kind of reinforced it. And I just thought, if I have all this supplemental material. Yeah. That goes beyond the photos in the book. I'm like, I feel like I can. And even my.

son who's not the most, my oldest son who's a writer who's not the most logical of guys. Even he really early on was like, dad, you know, you can't do that. You're like going to drive down property values in Edgwood and stuff. I'm like, you know, Mr. mature. I'm like, I don't care. I'm like, I'm like, but I'm going to scare everyone. I'm like, we're going to hear people are scared to walk their dogs and stuff at night.

Yeah. That's actually really fun, okay? Stop trying to put a damper on my thing. We're going to ruin people's peace. That's fun. Yes. Exactly. I'm like, they're going to start a neighborhood watch because I'm in a

You're like, have you heard of a prank, okay? Yes. I'm like, we can put on masks and scare people. Yeah, everybody's getting too serious. We'll get shot. I'm like, really. See, that's my things are no fun anymore. It's true.

You know? Like, come on. Can I feel like book, I think readers too would appreciate that kind of thing. Because I feel like readers love that kind of stuff. Like any kind of like interactive, like really immersing themselves in the book. So I feel like it would work. I think so. Most of them had nothing.

but, you know, good memories from the book, but there were those who got pissed off at me. Because they thought it was real. Because I tricked them. You tricked them? I'm like, I thought that's what I'm supposed to do. And they saw fun in it. The fiction section. Yeah.

Like, it's not in the true crime section. Well, it says a novel. That showed me. You know, my editor. That was the first thing that I looked and I was like, oh, a novel. Yeah. That tells me it's not. My editor who was, who was amazing at his job and it's just a really good guy, this

guy named Ed Schlesinger, he told me really early on. He's like, we got to put this disclaimer in the front. Yeah. And I was like, you know, I'm like low maintenance, but this was like the only time I was like, no, I'm dying on the cell. I'm like, if you want it in there, you have to write it. So he did. You're like, here everybody goes ruining my funny guy. Yeah.

I did. I pouted. You know, it's like I get this wonderful book sale for this weird book that I wrote about myself in. And somehow I'm still pouting, but that was it. Yeah. But yeah, I'm like, so what I want to say when they get mad at me is, hey, it says a novel right on three. It does. And there is a disclaimer.

But what I knew from my own personal experience is no one reads those. No, that's true. They get right to the, yeah. A note to the reader. And as soon as you start, this is a work. And you're like, blah. They're like, whatever. Where does it really start?

I love the fact that, you know, you thought it. And lots of people said that. They're like, I knew it was a novel going in, but by chapter three, I was Googling. That was the thing. Because, again, you get it in, like, the fiction section. You're not getting it in the true crime section. So you know where you got it from. Right.

I knew where I got it from. Right. was Google and being like, are there parts of this that's real? And like, I'm missing something. Like, that's how real it felt. Well, I love that. Yeah. I love hearing that. And I tried to write it like a true crime book. You know, I tried to write it very, you know, a matter of fact in places because you're not trying to, you know, glamorize anything. Yeah. Right. You're trying to, again, you know, lend dignity to, to what happened in the people who remain and all that. And yeah, so I tried to. There were times where, you know, I find myself getting a little too dramatic or fictiony and I'm like, you know, dial it back. You got to pull the pros back.

So, yeah, I mean, you know, who knows, three books is enough, but you never know. I'm not giving away anything. All right. I love that. You never know. I just, I always hear people who are like, well, it was meant to be, you know, six. And now there's 14. I'm like, I know.

It's probably somewhere right now rolling us eyes going, no more. It's true. As someone who is also on book three in a series, everybody's like, there has to be another one. I'm like, I don't know. And there has to be another one. I know. I don't. I'm not.

In your case, it does have to be done. I know. I can't leave it. No one said it's a trilogy like they did with mine, which is, you know, them giving me a real strong hint, Rich, be done. You've got to be done here. I also loved the little things, especially in becoming the boogeyman, where it was like a text from Stephen King. And I was like, this is fun. I was like, this is fun to read.

Again, I tried to make it as real life as possible. So it's like, it's my idiot friends who I love dearly who were texting me. It's my sisters. You know, I make reference to my one sister, Nancy. who is, you know, who is not subtle. You know, there's never a single text. There's always four or six or 14. That's how I text you.

Yeah. It's just block. And then there's my friends who are yelling at me because I don't return phone calls. So I tried to. That was the most fun becoming the boogeyman is I could drag myself coming through the ringer. Right. I was like, the press was ripping me.

You know, half of my hometown loved me. The other half was like, what a pain in the ass. He's probably in on this. You know, look, you bought a big house because of the. the blood money. I was just like, bring it on, you know. Let's go.

You know, the internet hated me. So that was fun. That is fun. It's kind of like, it feels like it would be cathartic. Almost like exposure therapy. Yeah.

Yeah. It was. I'm like, I know half these people are thinking it anyway. And you're like, you can't be as mean to me as I can be mean to me. Yeah. Let me write at first.

So I'll make it worse. Just sit back and watch. Yeah. Brilliant. So. Well, and going back to like the boogeyman thing. Like the boogeyman is one of those monsters that I think like everybody

has a different idea of what the boogeyman is, but they all know what the boogeyman is. Where did your personal relationship with the boogeyman begin? Wow. Probably like as soon as I was old enough to, you know, have dreams and just, I've always been, you know, I've always been the storyteller in the group. I've always been the one who really enjoyed scaring everyone. Like I wrote about, you know, walking up the gravel driveway of the Myers Field. I really did tell everyone's scary stories and then I would wait for that strategic moment

look over my shoulder scream and take off running. But the thing is, is the reason I told those stories because I was scared to death. So I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to be alone. Yeah, bringing everybody else. It was a distraction. Yeah.

So yeah, the boogeyman was like, you know, my wife will tell you, you know, I still believe in the boogeyman. I, you know, the scene in I guess it's chasing where I take out the garbage and I always talk about it where and I just just describe knowing. I'm being watched.

Someone's here. It is a vile alien feeling. And I felt it at some point probably a lot, taken out the garbage when I was young. So that's where that came from. And now we have this very long driveway. And I still hate taking the garbage out after dark. Oh, yeah.

I hate it. You won't catch me doing that. So many hiding places. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. I think everybody has that one chore, like one thing they have to do where you're like, I don't want to do that.

Something creepy going to happen when I do that. Yeah. Yeah, like I don't like going on our cellar. It's 250-year-old house. I was just going to say that. And it has, so for the ceiling beams,

it has complete trees. Oh. Complete 250 something. My house growing up had those too. Yeah. And most of them are stripped of the bark, but there's still bark on some. And it's just like,

again, you talk about an alien thing. Yeah. In a modern world. So, and it's dark and it's stone walls. And I'm just like, it's like the Blair Witchbase

Yeah. It's the perfect setting for something to happen. I always expect to see someone standing in the corner. Yeah. Oh, I hate it. I hate it. Or little handprints all over the place. There are handprints.

No. And names written on this one cubbyhole, this like, to the outside. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. Oh, that's freaky. Yeah. It's freaky, but it's fun. That's what we love, you know?

That's why you live there. Yeah. And that's why you write good, scary books. Well, I think that's part of it is that I still, I'm a believer. Yeah. I'm still scared. And it's, and it's, it's, It's to their great humor.

Yeah. And my older son, Billy, the writer and the filmmaker, he's like me. Okay. You know, I always tell the story of the first time we watch paranormal activity, which some people think is dumb. No, I hate when people say that. We love paranormal activity. We started watching it at night, opposite sides of the sofa. And this is a pretty typical experience.

And as that movie went on, we got closer and closer. And we're halfway through, and I mean, we are snug. And at some point, we kind of looked at each other and we said, let's finish this tomorrow in the daylight. Y'all. And we're like, yeah, good night, good I. And we both just want our separate ways. It's the simplicity.

Whereas my youngest son is more like my wife, Kara, very practical. So they get to the end of a movie like that. And they're like, eh, that was kind of dumb. And we're just like, what were you watching? Were you watching the same thing? So it's a good thing that I do write what I write. Yeah. Because I do think it helps.

Oh, yeah. And especially when I'm writing with a sense of nostalgia as a kid because I'm still, you know, I am still that big kid. in so many ways and especially the imagination and yeah i hope i never get that educated out of me well at this point i think it's too late i think i think i think i'm a lost cause i see my wife not and honestly i feel that way too i'm like i am what i am at this point yeah you have yourself kindred spirits no you know it's like we're going to circle the wagons because we're all weirdos as soon as you guys stepped in you started talking about your haunted house i was like oh you're in

good company yeah we get these are our people yeah yeah well you see it you know you sense it you know you sense. And you're talking to someone who's like super practical and all that. And they're just like looking at you and they're like, but Rich, you know, there's no such thing. And I just stop them. I'm like, I don't know that. Neither do you. Exactly. None of us know. I'm like, well, tell me about the afterlife. Mr. No at all. Yeah, right. You know. That's the thing because I have like, I have like both sides of the brain where I like, I really want to disprove certain things. Like my brain wants to do that. You're molding and scully all in one. She really is. That's really awesome. That's way to describe you. I'll take that. And that's, so I always want to prove it wrong, but I never can. And so I'm like, so I'm not going to sit here and say that I know because I don't. It's because you have that sciencey side to you, I think. Yeah, I want to figure out why things happen.

Yeah. I get that. Nine times out of ten, I can't. Me, I just accept it for what it is. I love. That's what I love. That's haunted and I don't know why. And I don't want to hear anything else.

Yeah. I try to disprove and if I can't, then I'll say, okay. I don't know. That's a ghost, I guess. Yeah. Like, that's it. And nine out of ten times, it's a ghost. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, I can't prove it most of the time. Right. I'm with you. And I'm still, I'm still, again, because I'm a guy, I think I'm dumb enough to still poke the Hornets Nest. I mean, we did like a Gettysburg ghost tour. And I'm the dumb. I want to do that so bad. I do too. Took one of my son's friends and he was just terrified. So at some point, I decided to be a wise ass. And I'm like, I started like calling down the spirits to take over his body. No. See, you're the one in the group that I'd be like, you got to go. Yeah, I'm the first one to die by the way. Don't worry. I'll be dead soon enough. You got to go.

But yeah, I had him praying in a corner. He was so scared. I'm like, I had to apologize to his father. And the whole thing, I'm like, he probably broke out in a rash. And the whole thing. Sorry I had traumatized yourself. Because I was like using, you know, I'm like, come down. I summon you take over. Gavin. And the next thing I know he's praying. And I'm just like, okay, I'm going to.

You're like, shit, sorry. My work here's done. All right. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Now, growing up, did you have a local legend or a local boogeyman that you remember? A lot of small towns have that. A little bit.

I mean, I wrote about the guy called the rubber band man and chasing the boogeyman. Yep. People asked me if that was real when I hit inside the playground tunnel and the smell. And I'm like, you know what? I think it was real. Because that was the thing. Chasing the boogeyman, everything, I wrote about everything as I remember it. except for the murders, which I mean, and everyone's names are all my true friend's names.

I love that. My parents' names, it was just, it was a memoir in a lot of ways, which was for me, was so much fun to write because, you know, my parents had been gone for quite a while, but, you know, for the months that I spent on the book, they were back. Yeah, you bring them back. And I was in my old childhood bedroom after graduating, waiting to get married. And all my friends, you know, when I was writing about younger days, we were still, you know, the Hanson Road Boys, we were all just.

scattered around the neighborhood. I loved that. Instead of the country. And I'm doing an event soon and all the Hanson Road Boys are coming. Oh, hell, yeah. That's awesome. I was like, I actually advertise it. I'm like, the Hanson Road Boys will be there. Oh, that you should. And people are going to recognize them as half of the photos. Yeah. But the neat thing is, is I told them, I said, you're going to be signing probably more books than I am. Because people for years have said, I want to meet them. It's so and so real. So the most disappointment from the first book was that Carly Albright wasn't real. Yeah. My, my, my, my, my, my sidekick.

Okay. And she's, you know, she's this very strong-willed woman, very wise and kind of keeps me straight, doesn't put up with my shit. So it's Kara. Essentially,

Kara. And I grew up with three older sisters. There you go. So I'm like, there you go. That's how, you know. Like an amalgamation of everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. I knew like fashion stuff and I, you know, I listened to like the Bay City Rollers and the BGs way before everybody else because I had sisters. Yeah. You know.

And I also knew, you know, care will say bullshit but i also knew the proper way to treat the female yeah um older sisters will teach you they absolutely well so but but yeah i that was the fun of the book is i is i got to write about everybody and and they all really and people always say did were they okay with it and i'm like yeah of course i okay oh they were probably psyched oh yeah well they're still mad about the pictures say i still i want it i want more of a close-up in the next one you can't see my face i i'm like I love it.

The whole thing. Everyone loved it except the lovely woman to my left, Kara, my wife, who loathed it. She's very behind the scenes and just, you know, she doesn't even like, like if I post pictures on Facebook, I have to get her written approval pretty much. I love it. She just doesn't, you know, she's not into that, which is fine. But she hated being written about it. I'm just like, it's the only way I know how to tell the story. I got away with it for the first book because she was young and it was so far in the past. But then I had to break it to her that the second book was set in my story.

modern day. Like, you're in this a lot. And you're in this fun. Like, you're a big part. Like, let me read it. Yes. And she's just like, well, I'm not going to read it. You know, that way when people at signings and stuff ask me about it, I can just say,

I haven't read it. You just say, I don't know. I believe the fifth. And I'm like, but you're- I just live this life. I don't know. And I'm like, but, you know, I don't want to say a spoiler. I'm like, but you're integral to the plot in many ways.

And I'm like, you know, the first book I always say is like a love story to, to my hometown and youth and my family. And it feels that way. Yeah. I'm like, the second book is, in many ways, is a love story to care. Yeah. You know, you feel that way. And just my place in the world and how she's helped me, you know, move through it. And then I'm like, you know, the third book is kind of all of it. You know, it brings the friends back into it. It cares a huge part. My sons are more of a part of it. I loved that. It like built upon itself. I loved that. Yeah. And it was, again, it was very natural. I mean, that's the plus of writing these books. They are a lot of fun to write even though I'm writing about myself because I don't.

You know, I would always tease them. I'm like, yeah, I just wrote a scene in which I, you know, ran 10 miles. And then I washed the car and I power wash the siding. And they're looking at me. They're like, who did that? They're like, who's that? Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm like, I'm pretty much, you know, a Navy seal in this book. And they're like, people are going to know that you actually look at your steps on your phone and you're happy when it's like, you know, I walk 600 steps today. It's very relatable. It really is. And I would threaten Kara. She'd be like, you know, her usual sassy self. And I'd be like, you know what? I think I'm going to go upstairs and write a love scene.

Real quick. I'm going to write a love scene. And she'd be like, yeah, well, you're not, you know. She's like in the garage. Like, it'll be a work of fiction. But again, you know, to look back at particularly the first book and be like, all those things happened, except for the murders. Yeah. And some people are still disappointed that the murders didn't happen.

And I'm like, I'm like, I know you don't mean that, I guess. I'm like, I know you don't mean that. Yeah, you're like, sorry. I did it. Sorry young girls weren't murdered. People say crazy things. You never know. Yes.

Yeah. That was a really long winded way of answering that, yeah, the boogeyman has always been a part of my life. And, you know, we had our haunted house. We had the Myers house. We had our, our legends. There was definitely a good side of the tracks and the bad side of the tracks and the whole thing. And we just, you know, I was always aware of the fact that. And even before I read Stephen King, but especially after I read Salem's lot at an early age and some of those others.

That was one of my first. And I was surrounded by books. You know, the youngest of five kids, my parents both read. So I was reading like Sidney Sheldon because of my sisters and like reading the sex scenes out loud to my friends. And being like, oh my God. I was like a hero in that regard. Yeah. But reading Salem's lot and a lot of those small town novels, it really made it easy to imagine, you know, the innocence of walking home from sledding at night.

But the lights are on in the houses. And it was first, for a warped mind like me, it was really easy to take that next step and be like, you know, there's stuff going on behind these windows that we know nothing about. Oh, yeah. And it can be anything. Yes. Yes. And then you get introduced to serial killers. Yeah.

And, you know, that kind of thing. And you're just like, you don't even have to suspend the belief of vampires. No. Oh, no, not at all. Yeah. I was fine with because I believe in all. Yeah. But people, yeah.

The idea that you could be standing in line at 7-Eleven to get a slurping and the guy behind you could have killed six people rocked my world. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm constantly still thinking of that at all times. Oh, I think of that. Yeah. Grocery shopping? I'm like, who's a murderer?

Yeah, I'm like somebody could be. Somebody's done some weird shit. Yeah, and odds are. Yeah, odds are. Someone's done that. That many people in a building. Yeah. You go to a concert and two people there are killing. Oh, easy.

Yeah. Which is horrifying. Yeah, it is. Because we're just like living among them. Just whatever. And I think that's why, like, small, like, you do, because obviously you grew up in that town. So it's like, you did like the small town vibe so well. And I feel like it lends itself really well to adding something so nefarious, like murder into it.

And why do you think, like, it works so well to add, like, murder into a small town? I just think it's the, it's, you know, the first book for me was about that loss of innocence, not only in myself, but in my, you know, I describe. That's the reason I opened the book. with so much history about the place. Yeah. It's because I think for a lot of people, particularly when you're younger, it's your safe place. Yeah. It's like it's the expansion of your home.

That's why they say home invasions are so traumatic. Yeah. Because if you're not safe here, where the hell are you safe? Exactly. It's your bubble. So you can expand that and, you know, to the, you know, the wagon wheel of your town. And when you're young, it's like, that's your world. Yeah.

That's the boundaries. You know, I, you know, when I was that age, you know, hell, I didn't know anything about Dover, Delaware. It was an hour and a half away. Yeah. I know if my world ended at the train tracks. Yeah, there's nothing beside that. Until you get your license.

And even then a little bit after that. But so I think it's just that contrast of this is supposed to be where you're safe. And I think that applies to, you know, you're a young couple. You move into this suburb. You, you know, you bring your newborn. Yeah. The thing you're supposed to be most nervous about is strapping your baby in a car seat and driving to the drugstore and back.

Which is really scary. Yes. Yes. Cair would come home from. you know, work some days and I, you know, the baby, poor Billy would have like three onesies on because I forgot to take the other ones here off after I changed the diaper and I put a new one on. She's just like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I was nervous.

I don't know. I think he's cold. How can I be trusted have a baby? You know, I, you know, I'm still shoving chocolate in my face at night when I should be going to sleep. And I'm like, well, you can't sleep because you have so much sugar and you dummy. You're like, why am I an adult? I'm like, but I'm a dad. I'm like, I'm cosplaying as an adult, okay?

That was, oh, that was me. a lot. How did this happen? Literally. Me and my husband had twins first, like right out the gate. Okay. And so the second they were born, both of us were like, what have we done? Oh my God, we have to keep them alive. This is scary. Yeah. Oh, my God.

And one of them was very, very tiny. Oh, she was in tiny. She was like five pounds when she was born. So she was like a little. A little girl. And putting her in the car seat, we were like, and I remember the nurses come in and they like do the thing where they're like, you have to put them in the car seat. and you have to know how and they can't tell you how to do it.

You're just, and I was like, but I didn't study for this test. No. And we were like so scared of putting this tiny little thing in there. They're so fragile. I won't touch friends and, you know, their babies until they get to a certain age. I get it. I get it. I did it with my own.

Go and that's your property, okay? I see strangers like in the grocery store park and I'm like, support the neck, support the neck. You're not doing it right. You know. It's chewing over. Yeah. It's so scared. And it informed everything.

It informed my work back then. Yeah. All of a sudden, everything I was writing. about was about the fragility of the world around us. So I think that that's my answer for the small town thing. It's just supposed to be, all you're supposed to be worried about is your baby in the car seat and getting home in time to watch, you know, I'm going to date myself, but, you know, Beverly Hills 9-210 or whatever it was back in the day. There we go. And instead, you know, there are neighborhood watch groups and they're talking about doing a curfew and there's cops everywhere

and you're just like, this shouldn't be happening. Yeah. Like I should be able to walk down the street and not worry. Yeah, which, you know, in my youth, I could. You know, we spent the night at each other's houses and we snuck out windows at midnight. And we went down to 7-Eleven and we got slurpees. And the whole thing. I mean, my friends love telling stories about that and including the one where we all played poker.

And then my buddy went all of our money when he was sleeping. We took a flashlight and tweezers and we opened his pocket. We flashed the flashlight and stole all his money. He had one from us. Went to 7-Eleven. He got to the counter, had all this stuff on the counter and no money to pay for it. Boyhood. We were demons.

That's friendship. Yeah, exactly. He still tells that story. But yeah, we did those things and it was safe. Yeah. You know, we were scared. I mean, my, again, my dumb ass was probably talking about the boogeyman. Yeah.

Or, you know, I heard that, you know, the rubber van man, which I think the legend was that he only came out in the daytime, which was weird. But, you know, I'm sure I was like, my sister told him. told me that they started seeing them at night now. Oh, of course. So, you know, we're scared of death, of course. We can't have a safe time. But again, it was like, you know, it was more like riding a roller coaster. It's like you were scared, but somewhere in the back of your mind, you knew you were going to be okay.

You were going to put your head down on your own pillow. Yeah. And it's fun to be scared. It's like a horror movie or going to a haunted house. You're like, I'm going to get the feeling, but like I know I'm okay here. Yes. Even though as soon as I get in the haunted house, I'm like, I'm going to die. Yeah.

Because that's what happened in fun house. And so we say that every time we enter any kind of haunted. haunted house for like, what if this is the one where the person actually wants to kill us all? It's the chainsaw. The chain saws. Anytime they chase you out of those places with a chainsaw, I'm like, what if this is that one time? Exactly.

But they keep the chain on and this is just like. And John always thinks we're crazy, but we're like, what if? Yeah. You know, that's, that's it. I mean, that's why I love Stephen King. You know, he's still, you know, he's still, he's almost 80 and he's still, I know, he still believes in the hand that's going to creep out from under your bed. Yeah.

Oh, I do too. You don't hang that, you don't hang your bare leg over. No. Yeah. Yeah. You get in this book as you can. You put the blankets on. Exactly.

You jump in that bed. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. It's true. It's true. Yeah. Now, with killing the boogeyman coming out so soon, do you suggest that readers read your

first two books beforehand? And if the answer is yes, is there anything in particular they should pay close attention to? You know, I think they should. I mean, I've had people ask me that. And again, my editor was very careful in that, you know, Rich, you need to write these books that they can be standalone. And that's why there's like in becoming the boogeyman, the,

It's not labeled an introduction, but it opens with a series of newspaper and magazine and online articles, which give you the whole synopsis of the first book. So you know who Joshua Gallagher is going in. You know who I am. You know that I've had a movie made from this, a book published, the whole thing. So, yeah, absolutely possible to read it. And we tried to do the same thing with the third book. Okay. But I just feel like, just like I did, you know, that heavy dump of town history in the first book.

which I worried about, and some readers did say. They're like, man, the first book I loved it, but it wasn't until I got the page like 60. It picked up. And I'm like, I get that. But I really wanted you to know that town as well as you knew me. Yeah, you have to set it up. Because that's what it's all about. Yeah.

And yeah. So I feel like learning, you know, I feel like there is a progression to the story. Okay. It's not necessary, you know, critical, but I feel like the layers are there. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think I enjoyed reading each one. one, like, as we went. Because I think it does really give you, like, by the time you get to the third book,

you feel like, you know, like the reader knows you and knows, like, your family and your friends and the town so well. You're so immersed in the story. You're so invested in the third one at, like, seeing where this goes. And you start, and Joshua Gallagher, you start. Yeah. You get that, like, he evolves. Yeah.

I mean, you're either going to be sick of me by the end of the third book. You're going to be like, I hope there's a fourth. Yeah. And it might be both. You might be, like, sick of me, like, oh, but I hope there's a fourth and I hope they kill written. So, yeah, who knows. But yeah.

I would like them to read them all. But yeah, I'm appreciative of anyone who picks up any of my books. I'm still that guy at the signing that, like, I always say it. I'm like, I still feel like I'm that little kid on Hanson Road selling cups of lemonade. And you're like, oh, my God, people are coming. Yeah. It's like, people are buying my books. Oh, I'm constantly in a state of that.

Like constantly. When people are like, I've read all three. I'm like, you've read it all three. Yeah. And then you walk out and you're like, how lucky am I? I know. Because you probably grew up like me with the books in your pocket, in your purse or your bag. I'm constantly like, what?

Yeah. It's like, what are you talking about? It's the same thing. People say, well, what it was like to collaborate with Stephen King? And I'm just like, my word's never going to change. It was ridiculous. Yeah. I can imagine.

It was you take a normal, everyday constant reader of his and you say, hey, come over and sit next to me at the typewriter and let's have some fun. Oh, my God. It's like, what do you mean I'm going to write about Castle Rock and I'm going to write about dairy? And I think I would fall apart. Like, I think I would just fall just because he was like my introduction into horror. And he's so many people. So many people's introduction. And it's like I've read every single, like every time he releases a new book.

I'm like, yoink. Like I don't even need to look. It's just I'm reading that. Yep. Well, at some point I started getting him ahead of time because of our friendship. You know, I would get an arc or sometimes even cooler. I would get, you know, he emailed me the manuscript. Oh my God.

Six months before the art came out or whatever, which was the case with other worlds, the new one, which is amazing and comes out the same day as killing the boogeyman. But yeah, I just, you know, to this day, I'm just like, anytime a new book comes out, it doesn't matter if I've read it, I still want to go to Target or Barnes & Noble or wherever it is or my indie and buy the new book. Yeah. Because I've done it my whole life. Oh, yeah.

It's so fun. You got to have it. Yeah. It doesn't matter if we're like, you know, we'll sell his new book. So we usually sell a 1,500, 2,000 copies or something. So they're all in the warehouse. Yeah. But I still want to buy my copy.

Yeah. I love that. It's a write of passage for me. Yeah. And honestly, that's how I felt, even with your books that you like, Widows Point, I scream about that book to everybody. Thank you. Because I genuinely scared the shit out of me.

I was like, this is a scary-ass book. Especially coming up on Halloween. I was like, everybody read that book. It's so good. Yeah, that book actually got highlighted by so many readers as like, you know, one of the scariest books. So scary. Which made me so happy because Billy and I,

new going in. We're like, when we wrote the novella version of that, I remember telling Billy at some at some point, I said, this is our everything but the kitchen sink. Yeah. And he tried to throw in the kitchen sink. He loves to tell that story. He's like, dad had to rein me in. I love that.

Because at the end, you know, I did something. And then he's like, okay, remember how we talk about it's everything but the kitchen sink? You just threw it in. We can't. So then with a novel, we were able to expand on it. And it's just, you know, it's just all the, during our signing tour, I kept referring to it as Scooby-Doo for grownups. Oh, it literally is.

Oh, that's so fun. And at some point I said, my publisher might not like hearing that. You know, my publisher might be like. Does it mean to them what it means to me? I think there's so many people it would, though. We had a van. We had the one guy was like shaggy. He had long hair and he was a stoner.

Oh, I haven't read that yet, but I'm absolutely going to. I was like, you have to. I'm sold on Scooby-Doo for adults. Yeah. And it's found footage. Yeah. I love found footage. And I love found footage.

In that regard. But that even was a happy accident. And people are like, you guys are brilliant. And I'm like, no. Oh, so good. We really aren't. It's just, that was the only way we knew how to tell the story. And we started playing with camera angles and different recording devices.

That was the coolest part. I'm like, we had no idea what we were doing until the reviewers pointed it out, honestly. And there's so much subtlety in that book. That's scary too. We tried to do that. Like, there was a lot of like how Blair Witch is so scary because it's so, and even paranormal activity. Like, you're not even seeing everything.

Those, those were, yeah. Like, oh, like that's. And then sometimes you're seeing something you don't know whether you believe it or not. because the way we described it shouldn't be possible. But then again, it's just supernatural, which is, there are no rules. Yeah. And it felt real because it wasn't always over the top. Right.

Like there were moments in that book that you were just like, ooh, that thing moved. And that's weird. Oh, that's so spooky. Yeah. Yeah. What inspired you guys to work together? Like, did you just say one day, like, we have to write a book together? Yeah.

Well, you know what? We always wanted. I mean, he, you know, he was a little weird out. God bless him. Hell yeah. He would sit on my lap and we would get, we would have one of those like, 1499 giant coffee table glossy books from the bargain bin at Barnes & Noble like the unexplained and we would sit there for three hours flipping through it and and he was the one begging to

he still hasn't forgiven me for letting him watch signs um and not warning him ahead of time about that birthday party and the corns oh yeah the birthday party those two he had I remember he crawled he was he was young enough he was probably 10 I don't know I'm bad dad, I guess. He crawled up on the top of the sofa and was watching it laying down over my shoulder. You're like, I don't know. I didn't know you were there. He's like, I'm safe here.

Yes. But he still doesn't forgive me. His first R-rated was Silver Bullet. Oh, my God. That was New Year's Eve once. We're like, all right, we're just going to do it. It's time. Of course, his younger brother, who was four years younger, got to, you know, hitchh

along. Those ones always get it early. But he wasn't even scared. Yeah. Yeah. That's that my kids got, because my twins are 10 and my youngest. just turned seven. And my twins really wanted to watch Return

to Oz. And I was like, that was like one of my first horror movies I felt like, because it's a scary movie. And I was like, this is going to scare the crap and it didn't scare them at all. And even like my, I think she was maybe five or six when she watched it because she just got to tag along. Unfaced.

Oh, I love it. And now I'm like, what else can I show? Even I want to ease them into it. Welcome to My World Challenge. Challenge. I was like, all right. You know, you shouldn't be, but. I thought Coraline might get them. I thought Coraline was going to fuck them up and they were like, this is great. Yeah, they loved it. Yeah.

Show them like a really old one, like chitty, cheating, binging. Because when the kid comes out with that net, those are the things I grew up on. Yeah. The original Wizard of Oz, which back then was, you know, must see TV. It came on once a year. Yes. Like the Christmas special. Yep.

You couldn't miss. You like, you know, put it on the calendar. I got to be in the West Rudolph. So same thing with Wizard of Oz. You know, I just remember, you know, the flying monkeys and the haunted photos. And my parents saying, you know, next year, we're not going to let you watch it because you had nightmares for a month. By then they would forget, you know, the youngest of five kids, they were worn down. Oh, yeah.

But chitty, bang, bang. And that child napper with the pointy nose and the net. Oh, my God. If that doesn't scare you, you can watch it. Yeah, that'll mess you up. Yeah. It's true. They really want to see Jurassic Park.

And even that, I'm like. Oh, Jurassic Park is. But then again, they're so, they might work out. And they're logical. And they're like, well, dinosaurs aren't around anymore. Like, I'm not worried about it to you. See, that one messes you up, though, because somebody could bring them back. I know.

I was like, science. That's the whole thing. I'm given somebody already has. They're on some island. Yeah, there's somewhere. We're just waiting. It's funny. It's drastic part for me because I was so wide-eyed with wonder.

I was, you know, I'm sure it was more suspenseful for me than flat-out scary. Because I was too busy going, you know, probably with drool coming dinosaurs. You know, eating ice cream. It's all over my shirt. The dinosaurs are real. I knew it. We all go through that phase, right? It's true.

I'm still in it, unfortunately. I get it. My husband's still in that phase, too. I get it. We'll get there. I would love to go back to your trilogy for a second. Specifically, I'd love to talk about the titles, chasing, becoming, and killing. When did you know that those verbs were going to be kind of like the arc for your stories?

When Ed told me. Okay. All right. Again, by the end of this interview, you'll figure out that, you know, I would readily admit I'm not as smart as some of the reviewers think I am. The titles are hard. This was called the boogeyman. Okay. And I always knew I wanted to write a story or a book, preferably a book.

The two titles I always had in my back pocket that I wanted to one day have novels. The Boogie Man and the Altar. Ooh. Yeah. And I always pictured an altar in the altar in the woods. Oh, I like that a lot. Yeah. So one day.

Yeah. I'm waiting for that. But yeah, he thought we definitely need, you know, more. And chasing was the first thing he came up with. And I was like that right on. And then the second one, I just had working title. Okay. And we discussed it.

I mean, maybe give myself a little credit. Maybe I was like, maybe I spit that title out when we were kind of blue skying it. I don't remember. But I'm pretty sure it was Ed. And then I did say killing the boogeyman. There you go. Which is perfect, I think. Yeah.

Titles are hard. Oh. I'm not great at titles. Titles are hard. And I didn't realize like not every author comes up with their title necessarily. No, a lot of times you have a title and you're like, is it's actually not. Yeah. Yeah.

I went in with a total. It's a title, all right. It's not a good one. Yeah, they're like, that's a word. For sure. Well, it comes down to like marketing and that kind of thing too, I'm sure. So there's a lot that goes into it. Yeah.

And sometimes you get ideas for titles that you're like, what? Like, there was several ideas that I got at one point that I was like, are you punking? Yeah. I remember going through some of them and I was like, not that one. I read them out loud. I was like, this is real? Did I mean this? Did I can't scribble that in my handwriting?

Yeah, like what's going on right now? Yeah, I'm pleased with the titles. Yeah, they're great. It's going to be neat to see all three next to each other in the book for. Yeah, yeah, it is cool. It's been a journey and, and, you know, I love the fact that when I'm gone, you know, my kids and their kids can kind of read these stories and be like, yeah, that was the old guy, you know. Yeah. My kids, when they read Chasing the Bogie Man, I'll never forget it because they've heard all my stories, including some of the gross ones that are in there, which my sister, like, immediately texted me and said,

did this really happen? And I'm like, yes. Oh, my God. I never thought Ryan and Craig would do that. I'm like, all the time. You're like, you have no idea. Everyone knew about me throwing stuff at cars that, you know, that I talk about in there because it's like, yeah, I'm genuinely surprised I didn't get sent to reform school for whatever

reason. It was like if there was an object on the ground and there was a moving vehicle, I wanted to. It was happening. So many boys go through that phase, I think. Yeah. My kids never got to because nowadays you get shot. Well, now you can't. Yeah.

But I've told Kera. I'm like, one day I just want to take them out. Just let them go for it. property and there's so many trees and there's fences and I'm like there's hiding places. Yeah. And they're like, but bullets, she's like, but bullets go through fences. And I'm like, you're, you're right. Like, that's really valid. That's super valid. Because we can get arrested. I don't care about that.

I'll just be honest. I'm like, we just, I had to give them that experience. Yeah. As particularly, Billy came back and he's like, you and your friends were like a group of street urchin. We just rolled out of town. And I'm like, I'm like, that's what it was like. You're like, you have no idea. It was awesome. It was lawless. No, no cell phones. It was at the, it was at the, The dawning age of computers. We only had one guy, Jeremy McAvon, my buddy, who had an early Commodore 64.

The big chunky computers. Wow. And it was like green screens. Yes. Oh, green. We would look through his bedroom window and he'd be playing Zelda. Yes. And then like, I think it was like the Oregon Trail or something.

Oh, yeah. He would describe it to us how cool it was. And we'd be like, shut up. We're playing wiffleball or, you know, we're going to go bomb cars. Like you're like, come outside, nerd. Yes. Yes. Which is so much better.

Yeah, no, it's true. Because I had a neighbor whose dad would the way that he would get her home and she was like down the street, he would do this crazy whistle that went all the way down the street. And if he needed her, he would do that whistle and she would just go get him and then come back. See, and that's so of that time. Yeah, because there was no phone to call or anything else to call. Yeah. I think I wrote about it. I might not have written about it.

It might have been just in my head, but the guys I just mentioned, Brian and Craig Anderson, their dad, Mr. Fred, would whistle. Yeah, he did that crazy like, whir-w-w-w-w- And he was super strict. And it didn't matter if we were like if we were in the middle of a wiffle ball game, he could be in the middle of his pitching motion. If he heard that whistle, he dropped the ball and took off running. He couldn't be convinced because, you know, he's more scared of his dad than he was of us being mad at him because he left in the middle of the game or the middle of Monopoly or whatever it was we were doing. But as soon as he heard that whistle. And it's just neat that you said that because that was the other thing I learned is at some point.

I was a little nervous before chasing came out because I thought, who's going to care about me? And I said, it's just this campfire story essentially about the boogeyman and my friends. And it had all this buzz ahead of time. I'm like, I got nervous, which I never do. I'm just like, you know, they're either going to like it or they're not. Yeah. But I thought it's such a small, intimate story, you know, maybe, oh boy, maybe they're all in for a disappointment.

And what I found in a really valuable lesson I learned right away was that it was never about me in the first place. It was about how they related to it. Yeah. Yeah. So they, all the people who had that whistler or all the people who, who had friends who they jumped ramps with from plywood that they got at the dump or they stole from a construction site. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um, you know, just all those little, I got more emails and posts about what it was like to pop tar bubbles on the road. Oh my God. On a summer day. Wow. And some of them were like so heartfelt. They were just like, it was one of my favorite memories of being a child, and somehow I forgot it. And it wasn't a unique experience. Somehow it left. Yeah. So it was, it was neat as a writer to realize,

hey, dummy, it was never about you in the first place, even though the character is named after you. It was just about finding those people who, who share those experiences and could relate instantly. Yeah. Well, everybody's so nostalgic for that time right now, I think. So it's great timing. I want simpler times so badly. I didn't even have it and I'm nostalgic for it. Like you talk about your childhood and like just like not having phones and not having computers. I wish I had grown up like that. It was such a simpler time.

You know? It really was. Yeah. I mean, you found your friends by knocking on their doors or sitting on the corner waiting for them to find that. I love that. And I feel like you had to like you had to grow that like extra. Like there was this developmental thing of calling someone's house and having to talk to their parents. See, I did go through that.

It's like that was like such a developmental. thing that kids now are not going through. Like they don't have to have that like social awareness to like talk to parents. Yeah. Like, hi, Mr. Turner is always so embarrassing. Like are they home? And that person being like, oh, yeah, how school got like asking you questions and having to answer it or like, it's just I'm like, I want that back.

I'm at that weird age where like I remember some of that and like had some of that. But then I also kind of grew up as the internet was like becoming more of a thing, you know. Unfortunately, everything that's. the old people told us when we were really young was true. Unfortunately. It's like the whole thing about how it's going to pass on a blink. Yep. And I mean, it's like now I tell people with that with kids because I'm just like, you know,

our youngest went to UVA back in 2021. And, you know, he played lacrosse. So it was a really cool experience. And it was over in a blink. Yeah. We still talk about, you know, how we felt the first time he came out and we're just like, this was his dream come true. So as his parents, you know, you're fighting back tears.

Yeah. And then how, wow, we've got four years of this. And then how we blinked. And it's been done for a year and a half. Oh, my God. So it's like, I tell everyone with kids that. And the ones who said, you know, you're going to long for the simplicity of this one day and all that. And you're going to, you know, because, you know, you're bitching about having to mow the lawn.

Yeah. Yeah. The mundane. It's like, oh, what I would give to be at their mowing the lawn while my dad was in the garage working on the car and have my mom come out and give me a glass of lemon. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's like that. And that's like, you know, I write about stuff all the time now because that's,

how I can remember. Right. It's that like that whole like saying of the days are long, but the years are short with kids is the truest thing I have ever heard. And I remember hearing it and being like, okay. And now I'm like, now they're going to be 11. And they just, and the youngest just turned seven. And I'm like, but you were a squishy little baby. It does go fast.

I feel that way even as their aunt. I'm like, stop it. Like it's. And it's like some days with kids, you're just like, okay. Like this day is never ending. And this stays 48 hours long and that's crazy. But then it's like all of a sudden they're 10 and you're just like, where did that go? Oh, and now all of a sudden you're going to be in high school and they're going to be in college.

And I'm like, I wet like a baby when I dropped off Billy at college. Oh, I'm a whole. Actually, I cried for like two weeks ahead of time. Yeah, just anticipating. Well, I'd see I'm like sitting at the kitchen aisle and doing his homework. And I'd just be like, how's he going to do his homework next year? You're a freshman in college and we're not here. And I can help him a brownie.

That's so sweet. And to say, Billy is really late. You should go to bed and finish it. the morning. You just call him at that time. You're like, do you need anything? Do you have a snap? Well, no, because then they get there and they're like, you know, they only, Billy only texted me when he was in the library supposed to be doing like a paper. Yeah. I would get a bunch of texts. I'm like, are you in the library? Are you supposed to write your papers? That's how we actually started writing is one of those times from the library.

He's like, we should write something together. Oh, I love that. And I was like, let's just do something old fashioned. That's where we're at a point. We're like, let's do a ghost story. Oh, that must be so cool. Yeah, that's rad. Oh, it's the best thing in the. the world. That's like the dream. People always say, what's your favorite? And for a while, it was, well, I wrote with Stephen King, who is like my literary father. And, you know, how are you going to surpass that? And then I wrote with my knucklehead son. And we, you know, people are like, well, the father, son dynamic, did you fight? No, I'm like, you know, we really didn't. I love that. He, the only time, he got grumpy when he was hungry. So I would know he was hungry.

That's a valid. Billy Go eat. And he got grumpy at me sometimes because of my technical ignorance, like the scroll bar. That's just found to happen, you know. Yeah. And I was like the file master. I had to control the final file at all times. I'm like, well, you've been through this. Yes.

Yeah. And if something goes wrong, you're like, at least I know it was me. And then editing, you know, how it's, you got the comments in the border and all this. So you got to click buttons into all this stuff. And I'm just like, can't we just print it out and use a pen? Yeah, that's literally. Can you just redline this? Yeah.

I think I did actually do that with this. Really? God bless them for, for the whole crew for working with me. Because, yeah, I'm a dinosaur. You got to find what works, though. Honestly, I'm the same way, like, the amount of times, like, my husband's like, oh, here we go. Because he'll walk in the room and I've printed out all the chapters.

Yeah. And I have, like, post-it notes on all of them. And I just am physically moving things around. Because I can't do it on a screen. It doesn't make sense to me. Like, my brain doesn't work that way. Yeah. And I see writers who have, like, the big computer setups.

Yeah, I can't. With, like, multiple screens. And they're shifting scenes back and forth. And I'm like, are you insane? Right. Right. Right. Or it will make sense.

I'm happy with this thing. Don't touch it. Yeah. Don't move it. I'm not moving that over there. I've heard you say that so many times. Like, don't touch it. Yeah.

Don't touch that. Yeah. That's it. It's like I still feel like, you know, we're building this house of cards. Yeah. I had to learn that for the rewriting process that that is actually where a lot of the fun happens. Yeah. And where you kind of make yourself look smart.

Yeah. And a lot of times for me and out on purpose. Because I'm like, I'm like, wait a minute. In the beginning, I was terrified. Yeah. I'm like, if I move one card, it's all gone. Everything's gone. Yeah.

Yeah, that's how I still feel that way sometimes because I'm like, well, I think this should shift later. And I'm like, but then none of this makes sense. Right. I'm like, yes, it does. Do you, when you get notes from your, you know, when you get the revisions back from your editor, do you still like have to go through stages? Like I go through the first stages, oh, hell no. It's pissed. Yes.

Yes. See? See, Kara's had to put up with this through all the books. And then by the next day, I'm like, and usually in addition to that, there's an email to my agent. Yep. That's already right now. And by the next day, I'm like, you know what? Like, probably a fourth of these are really good. That's, this is literally me. Yeah. Next day, it's up to 50. Next day is 50%. And by the, by the end of the first week, I'm like, damn, he did a good job. That's literally, by the end of the first week, I'm like, my editor is

brilliant. Yes, the bomb. But in the beginning, I'm like, I hate them and I'm going to fight them with my hands. Like, I'm like, no, I have, you know, fortunately, Ed knows, like, If there's a hill that I'm willing to die on, who'll leave it alone? Yeah. Even if he really believes, because he just wants me to have the best book that I can possibly have that I'm happy with. And they're like, this is your story. Like, I'm just here to help you. I can imagine editors being otherwise, but I've heard stories.

Oh, yeah. And I'm just like, you know, I know how lucky I am. He just sent me a picture of the first finished killing the boogeyman. And that's what I said. I said, well, as always, thank you for everything. Because, you know. But yeah, I had to ask you that. It's a learning curve.

Now I'm like rewriting. I, you know, I embrace it. And I'm like, I'm going to make myself look good. And they're going to make me look good. And then the copy editor is going to come make me look even better. That's the best part. The whole thing. Yeah.

We got a copy editor. The copy editor comes in. I'm like, how do I not fill English? Yeah. I'm like, oh, great. I'm like, look at me. A semi-colon. Yeah.

Why did I have three extra commas in this paragraph? Yeah. My favorite thing is that I've been like, I looked into this and this wasn't here and this year. And I'm like, yeah. It wasn't. It's fine. Get rid of it. Sam,

thank you for fixing that. And the once in a blue moon where you're actually right? Yeah. It's like, I'll like, I'll like, you have my own parade around the neighborhood. Oh,

yeah. I'm like, well, actually. You're like, gotcha. And here's the source for that. But I love that you get mad

because I'm the same way. I'm just like, ha. It's not how dare they. I'm such a great writer. It's just like, it's like, what are they thinking?

No. I know how to tell this story. Yeah. It's my story. It's your story. Yeah. It's vulnerable. I'm like, of course I want to describe this thing for four to four pages in a row.

And everyone should get that. You don't have to. Like, that's not something you need to do. Yeah, I love it. I'm going to go home feeling much better. Yeah, I text. Telling her the whole way. Yeah.

No, my agent knows she's going to get a text message. She's like, all right, so they're in. And I'm like, oh, good. And I'll open it. And she knows within an hour. That's going to be a night. She's going to get a full page text message of me being like, and this, and that and this. And then by the next day, I'll be like, you know what, that wasn't that bad.

They might be right about this. And she's like, yeah, I know. She's like, we do this every time, babe. Yep, let's go. My agent told me that I'm always going to feel this way because I told her, I said, every time it's time to start a new book, I have no idea how. Yeah. And I will tell my wife, long-suffering wife, I was like, I don't know how to write a book.

I'm like, I don't remember. I've never done this before. It just happens. And I'm like, and I told my agent that. And she said, I hate to tell you, but you're going to be saying that after book 20 and after book 30. and it's just, you know, it's just your process. It's very daunting at first. Yeah.

And I mean, and I don't need to get down much until I'm rolling. Yeah. I don't know if it's any good. I never do. And that's fine. It's the starting. Yeah. I mean, Harlan Coven just last week was talking about the shitty first draft.

And again, it made me feel so good. He's just like, you know, you never show your first draft to anyone. No. You know, and I'm just like, I felt like I had permission to, uh, I was like, am I hallucinating that cat just? I was going to say, did my cat just, that's what I'm always. Oh, I saw him downstairs. Oh, I have three.

I'm like, Mikey or he's like, you're not allergic. I'm like, we have four dogs. I don't think I'm allergic to anything. I was going to say, I have three cats, a dog. We got a lot going on here. Oh, well, my oldest son, yeah, is, well, he's moving out soon. We've convinced him to say, I'm like, if you want to be a writer, you better hang out in the attic, you know, in law suite for a while because you're going to need to save your money. Yeah.

Yeah, right. So, but he's at the end of that rope, you know, so it's going to be like him going away to college again. I'm going to weep for a week. Oh, yeah. I would be the same way. Yeah. Anyway. Well, in speaking, like, just back to the boogeyman series,

we talked about it. You used your real name. You as a character, your hometown, pieces of your actual life, your family, friends. Is there anything that you put in the books that unexpectedly felt like a little vulnerable afterwards? Yeah, quite a bit. And even some of the make-believe, like with chasing the boogeyman,

the rule was, well, the merger didn't happen. So when I'm talking about my reactive, you know, scenes to these, I wanted to be as honest as I could. So knowing that, yes, I would be, you know, absolutely aghast at what was happening

and terrified. But I would also be intrigued because it was my world. Right. So I tried to be honest in a scene where I like went to one of the memorials and, you know, down the street further, there was a picture of one of the victims that someone had posted that had blown away.

And I'm like, yeah, I probably would take it and put it in my pocket instead of it. And that's creepy. But I was obsessed with what was going on. And I tried to justify it in my head. I'm like, well, look, if it was at the base of the memorial, I would have put it back up. Yeah. Yeah. But it was half a block down the street.

And I'm like, no, I took it. Yeah. So there was those things. But yeah, I just, I tried to be as honest as I could with all of it. And yeah, I just, and now I forgot the original question. I do that at least once a panel. I honestly do the same thing every single time I'm in conversation. I've learned, just say it.

Just say it out loud. Yeah, you might as well, right? Don't try to remember it and don't try to sound smart at that point. So what did you say again? If something's felt unexpectedly vulnerable. Oh, yeah. There were a couple things where I, and I've been questioned about them, whether they're honest or not, the scene in chasing the boogeyman where I'm sledding.

and all my friends have gone home early. And you all know what it feels like, the hush of the falling snow and the glow of the houselights and just that feeling. And I had the kind of revelation there that I was growing up, my friends were growing up, and that not only because of what was happening now, but because of what was about to happen naturally as we got older, things were never going to be the same again. And once we graduated, we were going to go our separate ways. And we might not see each other again. And the world just felt so much bigger in that moment. And I did have that moment coming home from sliding, standing on the hill when everyone laughed early and the whole way home.

And I just remember it felt like the world cracked wide open. So that scene and then the scene where shortly after we moved to town and my father and I walked up to the top of Baybury and saw all the Christmas lights out in front of us. And I just felt that childlike wonder. I felt safe. I could smell my father's aftershave. I feel my hand in his. And I just felt like, again, the innocence and the safety of a small town and your parents. And yeah, I did a book club with like 35, 40 older women who, you know, they'll call you on your shit. Yeah. No matter what. And yeah, I had a very sweet old lady lift. raise her hand and just kind of give me the look, you know, and like, you were 15, you were 14.

You weren't thinking those things. And I'm like, actually, I was. I'm not with the hand in my dad's hand. I was like six or seven that. And she wasn't questioning that so much as she was kind of realizing that the life was never going to be the same. Yeah. We were going to be torn apart. Because it does hit you.

I think at that age, too. I feel like that's such a real experience. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, I had those feelings like, oh, A lot. I think that's how I knew early on, because I was writing stories from the time I was like eight or nine. Yeah. And I really was, you know, I wasn't submitting or anything, but I was, you know, I was writing a lot at that age. And I said, I had those feelings a lot. I, you know, I was in the moment, but I was always, there was always a part of me that was outside of the moment. Yeah. And my friends will tell you, they're like, we always knew it was your job. You were the one who was going to remember. Yeah. Because you're the storyteller. You're the one that's going to hold all the. And my ability feels the same way. And we've talked. And we've talked.

talked about how it's this weird responsibility. Yeah. You know, and in one of the boogeyman books, my buddy, Jimmy Cabinal comes home, lives in South Carolina, and we're sitting in our car across the street from the Myersfield. And there's a very real moment. And this didn't happen with Jimmy, but it's happened with others, where I feel such crushing disappointment because he doesn't remember. Oh, yeah. And it feels like this weird sort of betrayal because we were buddies. This was such an integral part of our life. And you have this like unspoken promise that you'll never forget it. Yep.

Yeah. And I'm looking at the growing up and he forgot it. And I never forgot it for a minute. Yeah. It was actually part of who I am. Yeah. That's happened to everyone, I feel like. I think so.

Definitely. So I wrote about that in there. Yeah. And I just, yeah, I remember the day I wrote it. It was like such a downer. It affected the rest of my dad. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

Because you can feel the feeling again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're walking around feeling like something so special. And you're thinking, it's this trivial little thing.

Makes you feel silly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, I put a lot of that stuff in there. And I know with the snow scene, it had been something that I had told maybe two or three people about in my life, Kara. And, you know, maybe my son or my sister or someone.

And it was, it very felt, it very much felt like the deer by the train track scene and stand by me. Oh, yes. Where Gordy's sitting on there. And the more he woke up. early and he says, you know, he saw this deer and it's this moment of beauty. Yep. And he says, I've never told anyone or written about it until now. And I felt like every writer has those.

Yeah. And I felt like I gave one up, but I felt like I had to. It was a good one to give up. Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of people can relate to it. I think so. Yeah. And people said, they're like, man, I've never read a serial book with so much heart.

And I'm just like, again, it was the only way I knew how to write. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, you feel a little weird because you are giving up a part of yourself. and you're feeling vulnerable, and then you have some sweet old lady call you on it. You're like, I swear. I'm like, thank you for that, lady.

Yeah. Because you feel weirdly vulnerable just writing a book anyways. Like, even like my books have nothing to do with me. And I'm still like, like, I just feel as soon as it gets put out into the world, you're like, I feel like you're weirdly reading my diary. Yeah, I'm sure. Well, it's something that you felt so, you felt so strongly about it to dedicate all this time to. It was in my head.

And now you're going to show it to everybody. And someone might think, you know, Why'd you waste nine months writing that? I always say writing a novel is like the ultimate symbol of faith. Yeah. Yeah. And yourself and what you're working on. The whole thing because people ask me about collaborating.

And I'm like, oh, it's really about trust. Oh, it has to be. And I'm like, but so is writing the book by yourself. Yeah. Because you are. I mean, you're talking. I always say that to like students, whenever I talk to students. I'm like, you're given a part of yourself to the world, even if it's all make, believe.

Yeah. And it feels that way. Each time. Definitely, I'm sure. Let's take a break to thank the sponsor of today's episode, Ashley. Your home is the setting for your life's most cherished moments or book clubs. Multi-generational connections are at the core of the home, and it's not about having every detail perfectly designed.

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I bring people up to the pod lab, they're like, honey, where is this furniture from? It's, it's It's giving upscale. It's giving Class A. And I say, honey, it's from Ashley. They help me refresh this whole space. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable white glove delivery right to your room of choice. Visit your local Ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style. Was there anything in any of these three that fictional Richard did that real Richard would never do?

Hmm. That's a great question. And I didn't say I washed the dishes or anything like that. I joked about, oh, you know what? My son would be like, yeah, walk the dog. And that's BS. I walked a dog, just not as much as they do. All right.

Like I was walking the dog when I found the garbage bag containing certain things and becoming the boogeyman. Yeah. People still drive by my house, by the way. Oh, really? And take pictures of the fire hydrant. Oh, my God. Are you serious?

Yeah. Oh, that's so funny. That's crazy. I'll be mowing along. And someone will slow down and they're rubber neck in. And then I'm just like, oh, God. Like, hey. Which is why Kara hates that I, she's like, you had to write about real people.

Okay. Did you have to write about our real house? Right. Yes. I really did. I had to buy in as much as the reader. Write what you know. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I could make up a house. I've done it in every other book. Yeah. I'm like, but for this book, it had to be me. I had to be going through this. You know, so, yeah, it had to be our house. It had to be our four dogs.

It has to be the kids. It's just the only way I could do it. Whether it's just that whole belief thing that I talked about or whether I'm not a good enough writer to fake it this time. I don't know. But I just, I knew it when I was writing the introduction to chasing. So yeah, it's our house. It's our fire hydrant. The fence that in the picture where they said the, you know, the boogeyman's back that someone spray painted on there.

Yes. That's our real fence. When Billy and I spray painted it with water, you know, washable paint. We actually had two people stop. One said, do you want me to call the police? Oh my God. Oh my God. Somebody else said, did you get vandalized?

And we had to tell them. You're like, no. You're like, no, but buy my book. We'd be cool if we did? Karen's like watching in the background. She's like, no, it would not be cool. She's like, I knew this was going to be a spectacle. Yeah, exactly.

She'll come home and she'll be like, yeah, I saw so and so in the grocery store. I haven't seen them forever. But she knows where we live. She knows what our house looks like. Oh, man. She talks about, oh, I drive by two, three times a week. Oh, my God. That's my worst nightmare.

That's so scary. Wow. And that thing is, is I'm very private. Yeah. I mean, even my agent was shocked when I turned the book into her and I said, and by the way, I'm the main character. Right. She's constantly, well, not so much now, but in the beginning, she was constantly saying,

you should go to this convention. You should go to this. I'm a home guy. Yeah. Oh, we relate to that so heavily. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I love staying home. Yeah. Same. You know, I would give anything for COVID not to have happened. but it really didn't affect my life that much. Agreed. Yeah.

And Carol would be the first to tell you, you know, we were so lucky because, you know, we've got some property. We've got a pretty little pond. Yeah. You have your own little like what you need there. Yes. And I, I mean, I felt guilty thinking that because I'm just like, I'm good. Yeah.

You know, and you think about the people who weren't good because they were crammed into a tenement house or apartments. Right. But yeah, I just, again, it was the only way. I knew how to do it. And the fact that people drive by and do that, I'm going to put a little free library in front of our house. Oh, that's a great idea. I'm like, you know what?

I'm just, I'm just embracing it. Make it worth it. Yeah. I'm like, I'm going to embrace it. It's a cool way to honor somebody who was really important in my life. I'm going to put a little plaque on the side. Yeah, that's awesome. There you know, I'm going to have a lot of, you know, weird fiction in there.

Yeah. You should make it like horror themed. Yeah. And I'll have the horror library. Yeah. The whole thing. So they can stop their car and safely take a picture of. the fire hydrant.

And also get a book while they're out of it. And get a book. Yeah. Perfect. And feel like it's worth it. There you go. Just wave from the window. Well, that's what you're like to start looking in the windows.

Oh God. That's when it's over. Need those blackout chains. I do read about it in great detail about our awesome security system with all the cameras. Yeah. And I'm like, so hopefully that's enough to. And you're like, and that's real. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm like, do I have to put like, should I put like all these signs out saying? And I'm like, no, because when I was a kid, if I saw those, I'm like, you know, No trespassing. I'm like, challenge except. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's smart. I'll just keep it low-key. You just know I have cameras.

I'll see you. Yeah. That's all. Now, the premise of the third book and killing the boogeyman, it kind of like blows the doors off of some of the reality that we get to know in the first two books. Because I feel like there's a little bit of a suggestion that the killer has become a little more than human almost. And how much did you want to push the reader into asking or considering whether the boogeman was like literally supernatural? I wanted to push them just to the right to the edge of that blurry line.

I feel like you did. And I tried to put enough subtleties in there. And some readers are probably going to laugh because I use subtlety in regards to the boogeyman books. But yeah, I wanted to take them right there. But leave some hints that maybe, you know, maybe what they're seeing isn't so reliable in a lot of ways. But again, it was coming from a place of, you know, the boogeyman really can be Ted Bundy. Yeah. You know, or the boogeyman could be, you know, Michael Myers.

And in a lot of ways, he's both. Yeah. You know, and there's some direct kind of nods to the Halloween series in the third book. And that was on purpose. Yeah. And I was prepared to fight for those in case my, you know, like with Widow's point, I know my editor said a couple times in the margin, you know, this is a little Blair witches and Billy and I are like,

it's great. That's the way. Yeah. We're like, and you know, if the reader thinks that, more power to him. Yeah. It's fine. You know, I'm not trying to invent the wheel here. And I felt the same way.

But yeah, I just, I, I, I, to me, like, I wouldn't be surprised if somehow, you know, they went back after all these years and examined Ted Bundy's DNA and he wasn't quite human. Yeah, honestly. I'm waiting for the podcast about the Green River Killer. Yeah. And you guys were fired up, which I love. It's all about, you know, the guy because he's this wormy-looking, you know, guy. And it's just like, how did he do everything he did?

Now, part of it's because he did look the way he did. Yeah. But that's what I like I like talking about Joshua Gallagher and the fact that, you know, some of the small things like how, how big his hands are and things like that because, and I like playing with things like, you know, his, you know, he looks taller and is, you know, his, his measurements changed. Yeah. Or was it just a board, you know, physician?

day at the prison who copied it down wrong and those kind of things. And I just, I like to playing with it. Yeah. You know, I mean, some people think, you know, Michael Myers is stupid because he gets up and he never runs and he just chases you like that. But to me, scarier. That's way scary. The believer, I'm terrified. Yeah. You know, so it's, it's, it's, the boogeyman books I always just said, you know, that it is, again, it's another campfire story. It's a throwback to really traditional storytelling. And the fact that in the last one, I kind of got to blur the lines a little bit was funny. loved it because it's true that like you think of like Richard Ramirez like the nightstock

or something like he was like a literal boogeyman oh he really was like teeth and all and for how long they couldn't catch him and then it's like in the way he got caught was awesome I love that neighborhood just chased him down that's my favorite yeah they just chased him down and beat the shit out of him but oh yeah the best ending yep that's a neighborhood I want to belong to that community yeah and who was this the the the big one the Sacramento Ed Kemper no oh the Golden State The fact that he would sneak into some of the houses and leave things. And take time in there. And eat dinner.

Eat food. Yes. Oh, and leave things like to make things easier. Oh, yeah. The length of rope. Yeah. Like that is supernatural. Or that he would stack the dishes.

Yeah. No. It's like there's sometimes. And you can't imagine somebody that evil being all human. Right. It's so non-high tech. Right. Yeah.

Like I love the X-Files when it's, you know, when it got. techy sometimes and because again you know for me it's like all magic yeah the simplest the simplest technology but and and there are those you know books that do that really well um for me this is more about it you know if you're scared of the sound of a screen being removed from a window when you're laying in bed oh that to me that's the things that scare me so that's what i say it's more traditional so it's i think those are the people who you know are going to relate to the books in a really strong way. For sure. As you're kind of like creating the plots and the mysteries within each plot, how do you decide what is, you know, like what mystery deserves an answer or which mystery is

almost scarier because it's left unresolved? Yeah, that's a really good question. Thanks. Usually I just get the, hey, you dork, you didn't answer the questions of what the numbers meant and those kind of things. No, sometimes it's scarier. It's from reading so many true crime books, especially about, you know, people, you know, that phrase hunting humans has always been terrified to me. Yeah. But people who do that and the fact that no matter, no matter if they're caught, they're prosecuted, they're, you know, removed from society, there's usually, it's never usually super

neat with a bow tie on the end, no matter how good the detectives are or the police. So I always want some things to go unexplained. Yeah. And I think it's scarier that way. I think so too. It's like the Blair Witch, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And I know some readers hate it. I know some writers don't like it and they always want to provide that explanation. And I swear it's like actually one case where I'm not being lazy because there are other cases where I'm like, you know, I could research this, but I'm just going to make it up. But yeah. So, you know, it's usually not a set thing. Like I knew I wasn't going to explain anything at the end of chasing the boogey ban about that. that. Okay.

Even though I never knew there's going to be a sequel. Okay. When I started writing the sequel, I thought, okay, well, I'm going to answer everything. There you go. And I even remember telling Billy, I'm like, you need to start brainstorm because dad's old and tired. I got to meet him. So then I remember, you know, I did, I think I did a chapter that was like the

something of numerology. And I thought, oh, I'm going to answer it here. But as I started writing it, I realized, no, I'm not. Yeah, I don't want to answer it. It's too fun. I'm not a big outliner. So I always just say. I honestly, you know, I let the story gain momentum and then I kind of just grab onto the stories, the tail of its shirt.

So you're like a pancer? And let it pull me. Yeah. All right. For the most part. Now with chasing, when I got like 75, 100 pages in, the ideas and the memories started coming back so fast. Yeah. That I was like, I need to write that down.

I need to write that down. And then what I found out was I'm like, no wonder people like to outline because it gave me like this roadmap that I could follow. Right. And I'm not super neurotic about sticking to it. No. Which I know is a negative for people who do that line sometimes. So I was like, I wrote it so fast because I knew where I was going. Yeah.

But I've never really done that again since. That was the only one. It's a miracle I can finish anything. See, I lightly outline. Like, I out like I give a bones of what I want to happen, but I never stick fully to it. You're like a combo of pancer and planner. It changes as I go. So I end up with like the bones of one.

And then by the end of it, it's like. Do you know the ending or no? Because I don't know what the ending. I don't always know. That makes me happy too. Yeah, in fact, there's, in fact, right now I'm in the middle of writing one. I don't exactly know the ending. Don't tell me the ending.

I'm like, I want to read it. I know, because I'm like, you and like John are the only two people. Like my husband and Ash are the only people that I'm like, read this. Tell me if it's okay. And I usually like too, but now that you're like so much more established, I'm like, no, no, I want to get these points. I want to read it with everyone else. Yeah, I want to feel the excitement.

So now's just John that I can give it to. Philly is mine. Yeah. You know, again, the people who have like entire reading groups and things, I'm like, Like, that's alien to me. Yeah, I don't want it. Because it would just be like six different instances of me getting mad all over. Yeah, exactly.

That might be too much. Yeah. I'm like, that's a, it's a emotional roller coaster once. Yeah. Right. That's why John is like my tabby from like Stephen King and tab it because it's like, I will give him a chapter and he'll be like, hey, so this actually doesn't make sense what you wrote. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. That actually didn't make sense.

Like he'll be like, or you said this, but then you said this after this. Yeah. So it's good to be. able to have that before I can pass it to an editor because it's just a couple of things I don't have to worry about them being like, hey, that doesn't make sense. You need that trusted person. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's always nice when the editor actually thinks you're kind of smart. Exactly. I'm like, this makes me look a lot more confident than I actually am. Exactly. Yeah. Now, was there a scene in any three of the books that you finished writing it and you

were like, all right, that was fucked up even for me? The mannequin scene that I describe in chasing the boogeyman that the detective tells them when I ask them what's the creepish thing. Love that. That row home full of mannequins, including one on the toilet, one in the shower. Yep. I think two of them were making love on the bed. It just felt so perverse and just. And people have asked me, they're like, all right, you have a thing about mannequins because they should pop up in two books.

Yep. And there's mannequins and Widow's Point. That actually is one of the scariest parts. The mannequins are so scary. That was scary to write. That part scared the shit out of me. Yeah. It bugged me.

It bugged me. Yeah. That's why I thought Wode's point might be scary. You know, you never know. But I just felt like I'm like there were enough scenes where I gave it to Billy or he gave it to me and we said to each other that freaked me out. That freaked me out. Yeah. You know, some of the scenes on the catwalk where he turned around and they had all moved and different things like that.

I was like, oh, man, that happens to me. I might just be diving off the side. Honestly. Yeah, I would do the same. Yeah. I mean, that mannequin scene bothered me. Yeah. There's a scene, again, involving a mannequin in the second book in my own home where it's just boom.

It's just, and again, I don't want to give anything away, but it's just, it's somewhere where it absolutely shouldn't be. And I realize it. And then a split second later, you know, there's an action scene as a result of it. But it's just, you know, and then just writing about the victims. I mean, like I said, I've read a lot of true crime. You know, there's, there's not a lot of active blood. I don't describe it happening, but describing some of the wounds and the bruises and the fact that they were young women.

And again, I grew up with three sisters. And, yeah, it bothered me. And it made me feel like, okay, you know, maybe think twice about ever wanting to be a true crime. I mean, we actually had someone, I think it was two years ago. We live in this little town called Bel Air, and it's got a main street. It's, you know, it's a nice little town. And there's a walking trail that I used to run on. And we walked the dogs and we used to walk our kids there.

And a young woman was murdered there, I think two years ago. And there was talk of like a serial killer. And, you know, I was like, oh, man, I can't put anything that signs out for like the boogeyman signings and all this stuff. And it was extra weird because she had sent me a Facebook invite. like a few months before she was murdered. Oh, wow. I never accepted it because I had too many.

I didn't know who she was and all that. But that really struck home. So again, you know, it just, I was writing about people that that were make-believe, but in ways that people have been written about before. Yeah. Right. It's weird when it becomes too close. Too close to home.

That's happened to us. It makes me think of the Gabby Petito case. Yeah. Yes. That happened. One of her posts on her Instagram. was her listening to morbid. And then when it happened, I was like, and we, everybody was asking us to cover her case,

and we were like, ugh. Like, I just didn't. Because I was like, I don't, like, I don't feel right doing that right now. Yeah. Like, we will eventually just to make sure that her story is told. Of course. But at the time, it was like, oh, that's really close to, like, that's too close. That felt weird.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Well, speaking about that, what do you think that horror fiction can say about murder that true crime can't necessarily. Man, you guys are good. We've done this a few times.

I just pushed the button and give my answer. But, you know, I don't even know if I can answer that specifically what it can give you that true crime can. I mean, because think about it, as wild as our imaginations are, there are stuff that has been, that has been, again, listening to your podcast, you were talking about, uh, the Green River and some of the stuff that was left on one of the bodies. Yes. And the stones.

Yep. Which I won't go into detail about right now. Horific. But you couldn't conjure that. You would never make that up. Yeah. Or if I did, it would be one of those things that haunted me. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'd be like, well, you know, I don't, you know, because I do come from a place of, you know, innocence with this, you know, none of my friends, my friends know, I'm a big kid. They were shocked when they read my stuff for the first time. Even though I was always a scary guy, they're like, you know, you're the pain in the ass. You're the big kid who's joking and pranking us. And you're writing about, where is this dark stuff coming from? You know, I come from a place where, you know, if I did think of that stone, something like that, it would bother me for a while.

But there's just no real connection to my world there. It's just make believe. It's like the boogeyman. But again, I believe in the boogeyman. And he just assumes many different identities and faces. So yeah, that's the thing. I feel like there's so much stuff. And if we had a pair of homicide detectives, a guy I fish with, he's a fishing guide.

His name's Kenny Penrod and he's a retired homicide detective. Oh, wow. So the cool thing is, is when we fish, we get to talk about so many different things. I was going to say, if he was sitting here, he would, and I had him answer that question, he'd be like, well, that's, you know, true crime, real life. blows anything you guys can make up. Oh, yeah. A way. Because some of the most vile, disgusting, not remotely entertaining, even in a...

Fascination, kind of. Yeah, fascination, you know, just, you know, seasoned horror reader or viewer way. You know, the movies that they talk about that go too far? Yeah. We always talk about that. Yeah. They've happened. Yeah.

And worse. Yeah. And I don't know how they do their jobs. I've always said, you know, I feel like I'd be a decent, you know, detective. like that. But I would be, unfortunately, I'd probably be the guy who was drinking as a result of it because I couldn't get rid of it. Yeah, it's tough. Even just not even, obviously, we're not detectives, but even talking about the story sometimes, it's like hard to come down from that. Yes. Yeah. There's been a couple, like the Moore's murders. Yeah. Yeah. That was really heavy for a while.

I was like, we need to do some like spooky stuff for a few weeks because I need to get this out of my house. Yeah, we like to go paranormal if we cover a really intense case. Yeah. And I mean, I mean, I worked in the morgue for like years, so I did autopsies. And sometimes there would be certain, like, especially if we did kids or like babies. Oh. Where it would like, I would come home to my kids and be like, I don't know that somebody lost there. Yeah. Like it would ruin me a little bit.

So that's the only part that like people would be like, do you miss the morgue? And I'm like, I do because I love to that job. But not that side of it. But that was the part that I don't know if I could have kept doing. Well, that's because look, you know, someone like me who has a huge imagination. I can't imagine what a child looks like. I've never seen a deceased child. So I can't imagine what up close that looks like,

especially if it was by violent means or anything like that or an accident or something. So yeah, so when I see a healthy child, which I've seen thousands of, I don't have that ability to see the other side of it. So I can't imagine that. It's awful. Yeah. And that's how I feel like I would be because the way my brain works, I would see it all the time.

That's the thing. I would have trouble getting rid of that. That's even like crime scene photos that we've like accidentally stumbled across or, you know, like when you Google something, those are hard to get out of your head. There's still crime scene pictures that will flash in my head. Yeah. And ones that I wasn't looking for. Right. I was just searching for like research. And sometimes it just pops up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's such. I mean, like I've said, you know, that and that's something I learned really early on is there's, there's, the true crime books, which are done, you know, that should never have been published. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like exploitative.

Yeah. Yes. Very much. And then there's the ones that are done with dignity. And my answer to the scariest book I've ever read for a long time was Ann Rules, the stranger beside me. Oh, my God. Because the scene with the pieces of wood in the sorority house, those are the kind of details

that made me want to be a writer because I realize you can implant that in a reader's head and they'll never forget. That'll stick with that. Or in that moment, it'll transport them to that place. Yeah. And that's what Stephen King's work did for me. There's little details. Oh, yeah. So when I read that book, and this really happened, I was just, I still don't see, you know, a stack of firewood to this day.

No, you think of it. You think of that. Yeah. I'm like, damn it. Mm-hmm. You know, so, yeah. That's the thing, like, with the Moore's murders, one of the things was, like, during one horrific situation, little drummer boy was playing. Oh, like the Christmas sound.

Yeah. And now, I can't hear it. Like, I can't hear it. I think there's an episode of The Office, and we always watch The Office to, like, chill out. And little drummer boy plays. And I can't watch that episode. Can't do it. I'm like, you got to turn it off.

I can't do it. Those things will stick with you, those tiny little details. Oh, they do. And see, and I love the fact, I was going to say, it ruined it for you. Yeah. And I hate that. Like, you know, I have, you know, examples of that also. But as a writer, I don't know if you feel the same way.

When it's fiction. Yes. I love the fact that I've ruined things for people. Yes. That's fun. I love the fact that I have people who say they're scared to take their garbage out. Yes. I have people who say, my spouse, because of you, my spouse hates you because they have had to accompany me or take the garbage out for the last two years.

Yeah. Or my dog loves you because now I take my, I leash up my dog and I take them out and it gets an extra little, you know, nighttime walk. Right. I love that. Yeah. I'm like, right on. That's the thing. Yeah.

That's a win. People tell me I've ruined certain songs for them. I'm like, cool. Thank you. Like, I love that. Yeah. So different. But speaking, actually, you mentioned Stephen King again, and I have to ask, how did that begin co-writing with Stephen King?

Show me your ways. Yeah. Your guess is as good as mine. Show me your ways. Yeah. I mean, you know, I started, you know, my magazine, semi-tray dance back in 1988 when I was in college. And from day one, I sent up the first issue, the second issue, the horrible looking for a second, third issue, all of that, up to his office in Bangor. Got to know his assistant really well, a woman named Shirley first and then Marsha. And they were the sweetest ladies in the world.

They knew I was young and naive and, you know, doing my best. And they were like, sure, we'll pass these guys. Yeah. But they really did. Yeah. And like, that was 88. In 91, Stephen King sent me an original story, chattering teeth. I'll never forget it. Carrey will remember.

We lived, you know, newly married. We were living in an apartment. And I get a postcard from a guy named Chuck Varell who was. Steve's editor slash agent. And it said, I think it said to the effect, a month ago, I sent you a manuscript, Chattery Teeth by Stephen King. He's a big fan of cemetery dance and would love to see it appear and we wonder if you had a look at it yet.

Wow. What? In my closet, I had a stack of unsolicited submissions about three or four foot high. I sprinted down the hallway, flinging them everywhere, found it. No wonder I didn't know it came from Stephen King because the label on it was Chuck Vare. New York. Oh my God. Yeah. Rip it open. It's this 30-page original story.

I read it sitting on the floor. I go hug her. We're like tears. Seriously, I'd be bawling. Oh, I'd write him back right away. Tell him, you know. And I'll never forget it because we then went to an Oriole game. We're probably celebrating. You know, with no money.

We're probably like, we're spending 20 bucks tonight. Oh, hell, I'm a little large, you know. Came home and there's a message on my answering machine from Stephen King saying, job. Alina's going to have heart palpitations. Yeah, I can't tell you how happy I, how pleased I am that you liked it and then I'm going to be in cemetery dance. You do a great job.

That's awesome. I'm a big fan. I just popped out the little micro-cissette, put in a new one. I still have it. Yeah, you're like, this is one forever. But I still have it. Oh, that's great. It has S and a K on it.

So that's what started it. And then just the progression over the years, more stories. And then eventually books. At some point, he was, at this. You talk about as assistant, we were invited to his 25th anniversary, no, 20th anniversary of Carrie. Oh, my God. It was a tavern on the green in New York City.

Yes. Very Stephen Kingish in that the invite said, P.S., jeans and T-shirts are fine. Nice. I wasn't bold enough to do jeans and T-shirts, but it meant I didn't have to wear a tie, which made me happy. A-plus. Went up there. That's the first time I met him.

And then it was just like a natural progression. At some point, he texted me about, I think, an Oreo or Red Sox or something. And I remember looking at Karen going, does that mean I'm allowed to text him back? You're like, it feels like it's okay now. It's like, is this really Steve? Come on, Brian. But it's 207. It's a main area.

Yeah, like, this is him. So at some, yeah, at some point that the business relationship turned into like this genuine long distance friendship. And then eventually, you know, we saw some baseball games together. He wanted me to, I was down in Sarasota for a film festival. He wanted me to come to his house and show him the short film I was showing. Oh, my God. Different things like that. And then I got, you know.

He invited us to the main premieres of his movies up there. So my kids got to meet him. And then at some point, I mean, never in a million years did I ever. The fact that I published them and was friends and with them was mind-blowing. Of course, yeah. And at some point, and we email about everything, but rarely business and text a lot. I mean, it's more about the dogs, sports, books, movies. again, some things that would probably, you know, not be socially acceptable.

Yeah, you're like homies at this point. Yeah. And at some point, I asked him about round-robin projects, like the kind where you have like six or ten different authors and each one writes a chapter or something. And he wrote back, this was via email, he wrote back, said, you know, those never really interest them because he doesn't feel like they're very successful. But, you know, collaborations are a different thing. And in that email thread, he mentioned that he had a story. called Gwendy's button box that he'd never been able to finish. And I said, oh, I'd love to read it, meaning I would just love to read it.

And because we're friends, sometimes I get the cool, you know, thing of getting to read manuscripts. And I was just like, I'd like to read the story that Stephen King can't finish. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. That was the end of it. I still remember we were driving to Noah, my youngest son's basketball game. Went in the basketball game, forgot all about it. Next morning, I wake up to an email that says that has Gwendy's button box attached.

And it says, just the whole email, do with it as you wish. Wow. So I remember thinking, well, I can't publish it. Sometimes we'll send me a story unsolicited and say, you have something you can use this for. Right. And I'm like, well, I can't publish it. So what does he mean? So what does he mean?

So what does he mean? You know, the greenhorn? I'm like, what do you mean? You want me to finish it? Not thinking anything about that. Thinking probably in my brain that, you know, of course that's not what he means. Yeah. But what else?

You know, that's a natural response. So he came back and he says, if you think you can. So that was a Friday. And I remember. Seriously. I'd be like, okay. I didn't, yeah, I'm like, okay, I'm doing it. But I also knew what it meant.

So I didn't tell anybody until that Sunday. And then I remember I told Kara and I remember I went in, the boys were watching TV. And, you know, they knew who Stephen King was. Yeah. Billy had read a lot of his work. And I'm just like so, I'm going to write a story with Stephen King. What do you guys think of that? Yeah.

I sat down to write some notes about it on Monday. And of course, it mentions Castle Rock in the very first. first sentence. So I'm like, not only am I ready about Stephen King, but I'm in flipping Castle Rock. Yeah, you're like, oh, this could not be better. So that's how it started. It's like this happy accident. Yeah, that's so organic.

Yes. It's like, yeah, I never would have asked a million years. Yeah. Never. Like at that point, I wasn't even asking like, hey, can I publish a limited of your new book? Because I felt like, he knows what I do. If he wants me to do it, yeah, he'll say it. He'll say it. Every once in why I had what I thought was a brilliant idea. And I'm like, hey, Steve, what about if we do this? And, you know, most of that were just like, nah. You know, like, not like an official, you know, it was never an official proposal and it was never an official response.

It was more like, nah. Yeah, just throw it up. Not this time. Yeah. Maybe later, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, I sat down to write notes on a yellow pad and I just, I'll never forget. My hand was shaking.

I was just like, this is ridiculous. I'm terrified. Yeah. I opened it. I opened his file and I just started writing. And like two days later, I had like 10,000 more work. Oh, my God. Which is a lot for me.

I'm sure, yeah. And I just remember thinking, okay, now I'm going to go back and I'm going to clean it up and I'm going to make this the best thing in the world. And I just thought, and if I do that, I'm never going to send it. Yeah. So I gave it one read through and I hit send. And I probably did one of these. My mom was very happy wherever she is.

And he liked it and he wrote a little bit more and sent it back. And I wrote the original ending. He actually wrote back and said, Rich, this is too dark, which I thought. What a compliment. And I'm dying to find it. I would tattoo that on me. I'm dying. to find that in my files in my computer.

Oh, you have to. I want to ask him, can I print it as a chat book? Yeah. The ending that was too dark for Stephen King. You have to. He was right because none of the sequels would have been possible with my ending. Oh, okay. And he told me later, he goes, I just knew Gwen, Gwendy deserved better.

And I'm like, you were so right. Yeah. So that's how it came about. And I had the cover really quickly. We told no one. We put it in production and stuff. And I just remember walking around with it. And I would call up the cover on my cell phone like three times a day.

And I mean, I got a lump in my throat talking about it right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd be like, how is this my life? You're like pinching yourself? Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, uh, I would be the same way.

Like the same way. It's like the ultimate honor for authors like you guys or just any author, I think. Because I think we sent Stephen King's like off at like his people. The first book, we sent him The Butcher and the Wren, which I was like, oh, God, we sent him that one. Like, that's my first. I was like, why do we do that? Why didn't we wait? And I think we got, like, a nice note back that was like he didn't have time at the time to read it, which, like, he's Stephen King.

But I was like, maybe he, like, knows I exist, though. He might. Because then he was number one on the New York Times list when I was number two. And I was like, he might have seen my name next to his. Yeah. You're climbing. Yeah, absolutely, I hope he knows who I know. He probably cursed your name in that moment.

I hope so. I hope so. Yes, exactly. That's what I want. Again, an honor. That happened to me once where I wasn't nowhere in error number one or two, but we were both on it at the same time. And again, it was one of those moments where it was just like.

You're sharing the list. How is that even possible? Right. Just the whole thing. But yeah, people ask me about that. And I'm just like, look, it's ridiculous. I have no idea how it, if there's any proof that magic really does, you know, exist in this world, that's it because I am just, I'm the constant.

reader. I still have Stephen King books inscribed to me by my sisters because they were Christmas or birthday presents. I know how much you love this. I love that. So, and I have them up on my shelf right next to the ones inscribed to me by Steve. And I'm just like so, I mean, you know, I'm going to get cheesy here for a second, but I'm a two-time cancer survivor. Oh, wow. And when I was 29 and when I was 30, and I always just felt like, you know, there was reasons. There were reasons there why I made it. And for a while, you. And for a while, you have that survivor's guilt because you're just like, you know, why me and not all these other amazing people that you've met or you've read about and all that. But I've always felt like,

first and foremost, okay, I survived to be a father because that I always wanted to have children. And even when Karen and I were high school sweethearts where I was like, oh, one day we're going to get married and have kids. And I think back then I was like, five kids. You sound like me. That dwindles down. Yes. And I just, it's been the best thing in that. world for both of us. I mean, we say it all the time.

Oh, yeah. You know, that's, that's it. If at the end, if there's nothing else said, then other than we were a good mom and dad. Then that's right on. Yeah. That's it. And, um, and I just felt like, you know, maybe this was one other thing. That was, that was a gift waiting for me.

I'd say that was on the back end. Because I, I have no other way to explain it. I should have. I've asked his assistant, Marsha. I'm like, why the hell were you always so nice to me? You know, I tell her, she's like my guardian angel. And she's just like, well, you never had, she's just like, you kind of stood apart from a lot of people who always asked them things because you never had a sense of entitlement. Like, how dare he say no? You're always just like, you said ahead of time. She's got no reason to say yes to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Yeah. Right. Like genuine, just like. And again, and then hand in hand with Steve, he's told me at some point, he's just like, I always knew you were doing this for the right reasons. Yeah. I made no money in my 20s. Care will verify that. It wasn't until the middle of my 30s where I was publishing a lot of.

books that it started becoming a real business. Yeah. So I really was always doing it because I loved it. Yeah. And because I couldn't, I don't know what else I would have done. Yeah. But yeah. So, yeah, when I look at it like that, I'm just, I'm just grateful.

Yeah. I tried to, you know, I tell my boys that all the time. I'm like, live a life of gratitude because we're very lucky. We're very fortunate. And there are people who work just as hard. I always get that, you know, the people who kind of, they don't want to hear that. they don't want to hear the, you know, privilege and some of those things. And they're just like, well, you've worked really hard.

I'm like, yeah, but you know what? There's a lot of people who've worked just as hard as I have. Yeah. And they haven't had that level of success. So you're not going to sell me on that idea. No. I'm going to wake up that day. I fully believe in luck.

You have to be grateful for everything that you have right now. Yeah. Yep. And be willing to just do the work. And people can sense that. Like, obviously Stephen King sensed that you were great. I think he sensed that I was this weird of who was just like, you know, just happy as hell to be doing what I'm doing. Even though every income tax season, I was like, you know, looking at Kara going, I made 47 cents an hour.

Yeah. And you know what? God bless her. Because again, there's a lot of partners who would have been like, it's time to go get a real job. Yeah. And there was never that. I mean, even my dad. I always say my dad, what a gift.

He was an ex-military and he was a very by the numbers guy. Go to college. Get your degree, have a career. He never blinked when I said, well, this is going to be my career, this ugly black and white magazine. And he helped me stuff flyers and envelopes and all that stuff. He never for a moment said, rich, go get a real job. Yeah.

And that's why I tell people, I'm like, you can't discount what having that kind of faith and support in your corner will do for you. Oh, yeah. It's so true. I'm like, I don't know if I would have given up if I didn't have people like care and my mom and my dad and my sisters and my friends. I mean, that's a cool thing about my friends, too. Yeah.

They remember all those stories. They remember when I was in my 20s, and I used to say, no, vacations are for lazy people. And God bless Kara, she didn't divorce me. You know, we didn't go vacation for, I don't know how many years because I was working. Yeah. And I was like, I'm not going to go spend, you know, a ridiculously low amount now as an adult with the family. I'm not going to go spend $400 to go skiing. You know, I can't.

And, you know, God bless her. You know, she's just like, well, you know, you knew I had some, you know, I had a vision of something. I loved that. And so again, you talk about having a reason for gratitude. Yeah. And that's that's, and it's rare, I feel like to have people like that. Especially in today's world. Exactly.

Where everybody has a complaint. And especially online. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, that's, and I think that's why I'm able to kind of digest the stuff online a little easier because I'm just like, you're not going to, you're not going to affect me. Yeah. Like I've got all these people around me. I can see, you know, Noah doing this or Billy or I can take. four dogs for a walk with Kara and come home to my 250-year-old house and just feel like,

how lucky are we? Yeah, exactly. Whatever it is that's bad will pass. I feel that exact same way. We're always saying that. Which is awesome. When you find people like that, you kind of, you don't always find people like that. No, that's what I'm saying.

When you do, you bring them close because there's not a lot of people. And I mean, again, I'm the luckiest guy in the world with my friends. But yeah, some of them right now would be going, oh, here goes, kumbaya rich. You know. But you're like, that's why you love me. And that's why it works, right? That's what it is. It is.

I can't pretend to be anything else. No. You have to. Life would be really rough if you don't think that way. So all that babbling came out of you saying, how did the Stephen King thing come along? But it's just one more thing in that puzzle where I just feel like. It all fit together. For whatever reason.

You know, so yeah, just very fortunate. It feels very organic the way it happened. It was. And that's the best thing about it. Yeah. And in fact, and then I'll show up about it. What we did interview for the audio version, the woman from Simon Schuster, who asked us the questions. She asked Steve. She said, why rich? And I remember I kind of perked up at my desk.

And I'm like, yeah, why me? Why me? Because I never, I never wanted to ask it. Yeah. And at some point, I'm sure I stopped thinking about it. Yeah. But I'm sure before that, I was terrified to ask. Right. And his answer was real matter of fact. He just said, well, I just finished reading along December, a collection of stories from Rich. He said, and he does everyday people so well in everyday settings. And I thought if anyone could finish Gwendy, it would be him. He writes about the kind of people who, you know, who go shopping and then on their way home stop and have dinner at Cracker Barrow. Which is where I had breakfast this morning, by the way. And he just said, so I thought, if anyone could finish Wendy, it was him. And I just thought, oh, that's such a nice answer because

I'm sure there's, you know, all these millions of people who are going, it's because they're friends, dummy, because you're not that good of a writer, which is fine. Think that all you want. I mean, it was probably true, but it was cool to hear that answer that it just like, it just naturally came to his mind that, hey, he writes about people who are in this story. Yeah. So let's see if he can. Then you can match this. Yeah. That's actually a big compliment.

I was just going to say, what a compliment. A huge compliment. Well, that's what I was like, I was like, I owe that lady like flowers and. Yeah. You're like, thank you for asking. I think to this day, I never would have asked them. Yeah. And it would have been in your head, but it never would have come out.

Yeah. So it was cool that, I'm sure I hung up, you know, I hung up when it was all done and I went in the house. And I'm like, he gave it to me because he thought if anyone could be me. I probably told everyone I know that. I would. It could be people like in line at 7-Eleven. Oh, yeah. Probably said, he's a serial killer.

Come we go. They're like, calm down. I put it in my bio. I do the same thing. I would do the absolute save. I do that with Patricia Cornwell is one of my favorite authors. She's awesome. I read her since I was like 13 years old.

And when we got to have her on the show and then she gave me a blur for the book, I tell everybody. I'm like, as you should. I will never get sick. And I love her because she's such a strong woman. She pisses some people off because she's so strong and the whole thing. She's the best. She's in a lot of ways she's like Steve where she doesn't give a shit. Yeah, she really does. She says. And I like that. And they're from the same class. Yeah. She literally is like Agent Starling. Yeah. Like she talks like her. She sounds like her. Like she's awesome. Yep. Yeah. Oh, that's neat. Yeah. So I would be the same way. Oh, yeah. Never forget that. Now, our last question before we go into a quick, would you rather and to end is are you actually killing the boogeyman um yes no maybe i like i love it

yeah yes no maybe that's my answer it's a mystery and it's an honest answer yeah so that's the thing i like that yeah that's great i like that that leaves us with a lot i mean that's what's the the thing in the beginning um i never i can never remember what you call the little quotes that you put in the beginning that front matter stuff but i said you can't kill the boogeyman Tommy from how Yes. And it's just like, you know, in some ways, like I said, it's just, it's just like, it's still that small campfire story and it's still, Halloween's my favorite horror movie. I love Halloween. I think it always will be because of the nostalgia and just because it really does, in a lot of ways, defines me as a storyteller. Yeah.

Which is just, you know, I'm going to try to show you as little as possible to scare you, but every once in a while, I'm going to jump you. Oh, yeah. I'm going to give you it. Yeah. And to me, the scariest scene from that movie is still Tommy. looking at the window from the curtains and seeing him carry that body into that house. Because what he should, and there's jackal lanterns and stuff. Because, you know, what you should be seeing are the falling leaves and maybe a passing car.

Instead, you see what should be the impossible and it's not. Yeah. And you're the only one he saw it. Yeah. That's it. You're the only one who saw it. So you're like, no, the boogeyman is real. And everyone's telling you it's not.

And I'll always be Tommy, you know. Yeah. So I might as well write it and make a living from it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you do it well. I would say so. Yeah.

And now we have would you rather to end it out. We always finish on would you rather. This is where I get canceled somehow. Because I'll try to be honest. You know, we can edit out whatever we need to. Yeah, it's true. He's not alive. All right.

Would you rather know exactly when you're going to die or exactly how you're going to die? We're starting off strong. Yeah. That's what you're going to be like, would you rather have peanut M&Ms or? Now we go hard here. We go hard. Um, I would, I guess I would rather know how. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't want to know when I'm going to die. I think so. I'm thinking about death a lot. My wife's thinking about death a lot. She's like, you know, as a cancer survivor, I don't have the greatest insurance because they don't give it to you. Oh, God. That's bullshit.

Yeah. America. Yeah. Just like, I got lots of books now. Come on. It's passive income. She's like, I don't care about that. I agree, though.

Yeah, I don't want to know when. No. I would never want to know that. No. I mean, first, again, we're, for, again, we're, for. someone with a wide open mind, the whole thing I'm thinking about what comes next is pretty freaky. And I've always been, you know, I've always had faith that there's got to be more. There's got to be more. We can't just be here to do this dumb shit.

No, there's too much weird shit. Yeah. And again, I remember telling care when we were like really young, having those heavy discussions. And I just remember saying there's been too many moments in my life that shouldn't have happened and where I've had, whether the feeling or the thought or whatever it is, that there's no way that I should have been capable of it. So there has to be other things going on. I agree. That's my thought. And whether it's, you know, to the pessimist who says, well, that's just your comfort thought,

I don't have a lot of comfort thought. So if it is, it's a surprise. I just think it's generally how I feel. Yeah. I agree with that. No, I agree for sure. Yeah. All right, this one's less heavy.

Yeah, we did start heavy. Pretty relevant to what we were talking about earlier. Would you rather discover someone has been living secretly in your attic? Or discover someone has been coming in. your house every night and leaving before you wake up. Well, considering I've imagined both scenarios extensively. Yeah, same. Same. I would rather, yeah, I would definitely rather know that they've been coming in going out. Same. Because I feel like you can put a stop to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can definitely put a stop to it. And, yeah, I just, the idea that someone's

been there when I've been there all the time and stuff is just too out there for me. Yeah. But I have imagined both. I have to. Often, actually. Yeah, same. I think about that frequently. Yeah. But I'm going same answer. I don't need to know that you've been there the whole time. Yeah.

I do weird shit. You can even eat my food and stuff. I mean, you know, my chocolate ice cream stock can be somehow lower and I can accuse Kara and it's fine. Oh, yeah. That's cool. Yeah, whatever. But you can't live up there. No.

No, you got to pay rent. Especially because the attic is really close to my bedroom. That's the other thing. Yeah. You're not living up there. No. And sometimes she actually leaves the latch, the locking latch on locked. Oh, my.

I check the basement one in the attic one every night. Oh, yeah. And I can't tell you. I can tell you this. Twice in the last, like, two weeks, the basement latch has been open. And I'm like, what the hell are you thinking? Oh, Lord. Oh, no.

Kara. Lauren. Kara. Come on. Yes. How dare you? I'm so glad I made her sit in on this. I'm like Fort Knox.

Me too. John's always like, are you good? No. We're fine. I'm like, nope. Yeah. Everything. I double check everything.

I double check every window. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Got the sensors on all the windows. Yeah. We have a great security system, too. But for Father's day. They're always like, you know, we hate buying you presents because you're a kid.

You go out and get whatever you want. I'm like, well, you know, a better security system. Yeah. You could add a sudden. I'm like add one on more cameras more. Yeah. That's a great idea, actually. Another camera.

Oh, I love adding cameras. I have cameras all over this. I'm like the least like elitism person. And I'm like, but I would like gates at the driveway. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, I'm like the whole thing. And I'm like, and you know, that always leads. Rich, you would like to have a castle in a moat.

And I'm like, oh, hell. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. I want to be like Enna. Yeah. Live with my cats in Ireland and a castle. Let's go.

Yes. All right. I feel like I might know the answer to this based off how we started. Would you rather spend one night in a genuinely haunted house like your own? Or one hour alone in the woods knowing a murderer is somewhere out there. Oh, the haunted house night. Because you're doing it. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm doing it. And I just feel like there's, you know, at least with the ghost, you can roll your dice that they're not going to mess with you. Right. They might even protect you. do and they're supposed to be friendly ghosts. It's true. My first Halloween costume was Casper.

I was just going to say Casper. Yes. Everyone remembers the reveal. Can I keep you? Can I keep you? Oh, yeah. Kill me. I showed my girls that recently.

Oh, that's an awakening. Because I was like, this is a moment that you should have to see Devin's how at 10 years old. Yeah. Like you should do that. He's a big chasing the boogeyman fan. Oh my God. He tweeted about it one day out of the blue. And I was like, dude.

How cool is that? I'm like, I don't have starry eyes because of some of the movie stuff I've done and all. And I'm plus, you know, one of my best buddies is Jonathan Sheck. So an actor, you realize really early on when you grew up with the guy that it's like, you have the smelliest feet. And you fart more than anyone I know. So it's like, yeah, I don't care that you were married to Christine the applicant. You're just like me, dude. Incredible. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And through him, I got to meet a bunch of the others and they're the same way. They're all real. And some of the women are worse than the guys. Yeah. So it's like, you know, none of that.

But when he posted to that, I was like, how cool is that? Yeah, there's some that hit different. Same thing, I'm like, Casper, Final Destination. Yes. Oh, hell, yeah. I don't know. Yes. Yes. I think he followed me on Instagram and I talked about it for like.

I was jealous of that one. I was like, he's a really nice guy. And I'm still like, why did you follow me? I mean, he's a horror lover. Maybe he's into the book. He is. He's a good dude. He's like, he's a family guy.

Yeah. He's a dad. And the stuff he posts, I feel like is really honest, unlike some. So yeah, that's cool. I had to repost it and write, can I keep you? Valid. I was like, I'm married. That's the only appropriate response.

like I have to write this. My sister still remember my Casper thing. You know, one of those plastic masks with the elastic that hurt and the whole thing. And I remember biting onto the plastic so much. They're so stupid. They're like, you were so happy. It was your first trick-or-treating. And for me being who I am, I'm like, growing up trick-a-treat.

There was nothing better. Oh, no. It was a love to go trick-or-treating with your kids. I'm like, I'm not missing it. Oh, it's an event. And I dress up. Yeah. Yeah.

Girl care just told the story last week about how, you know, where we used to live was a regular neighborhood and when speeders, we had big packs of us, parents and kids and when we go through and anyone who's, I always had a huge pocket full of candy corn and I don't like candy corn. But any car that didn't slow down sufficiently when they were passing us got pelted. Got some candy corn. Nice. So you would hear like this machine gun. Nice.

Then my friends started doing it and you would like, it was just. I love it. Yeah. So that was my thing. That was my thing. I'm like, you can speed near my kids. No. Yeah.

Halloween's still the greatest night. Yes. Oh, it's my favorite holiday. Christmas is secondary. And you should be driving at like one mile an hour no matter where you are on Halloween. I won't drive it now. I hate driving on Halloween. Because I'm too scared.

I'm like, respect the holiday. The only thing about our house is no trick or treaters come. Oh, really? Yeah, because, you know, it's kind of spread out and it's across this road. And no trick or treaters come. And every year I say, you know what? We're going to make the greatest haunted house with everything out front. We're going to attract trick or treaters.

And then I was thinking the back of my head, but then they're going to have to cross this road. And I'm just like, I'm just like, you know what? So she just, we were always the house that everyone came to. Just like I wrote about in chasing. Everyone came to. We had spaghetti, meatballs. We had salad. We had, you know, a big spread.

And everyone came. And then, you know, the kids got older and stopped trick-treating. We kind of stopped doing that. And then it was just like, you know, this year, we're going to do it. We're going to have everybody here for Halloween. I'm like, yes. Yeah. It's the best.

Love that. I love it. All right. Our next round of Would You Rather's is going to be writer hell edition. So this is, would you rather lose the first. first 50 pages of your current manuscript or the last 50 pages? First. That's what you said.

Yeah. Only because by then I've gone over there's 50 pages so many times to get to those left 50 pages that I can probably regurgitate it with some level of accuracy. That makes sense. That's the thing because it just becomes like. Because I've lost a lot of like one page things like interviews that are done, Q&As that are done via email. Oh yeah.

I've lost a lot of those and I've like verge of tears because I hate doing them. Yep. And then you realize that, wait a minute. I can remember that. Yeah, that's quick. I know me. I can answer that. I can do this.

So yeah, first picture for sure. You don't want to lose any. And I'm going to do this again. Right next cross. I was like, wait a minute. Yeah, exactly. Would everybody? I'll lose anything.

It's still on here. All right. How about never be allowed to write horror again or only be allowed to write horror for the rest of your life? I think never be allowed to because I think that my definition, my boundaries of horror are pretty broad. Okay. You know, like I can write, like, I feel like a lot of, like, I wrote a novella called

The Girl in the Porch, which is just very much Harlan Cobain, John Sanford territory, it's suburban suspense, but everyone still calls it horror. Yeah. I still think chasing the boogeyman in a lot of ways is more of a thriller than it is a traditional horror novel. You can, like, kind of sit on both sides. Yeah, I think it straddles. So, yeah, I would continue to be the stubborn guy who was.

It's like, well, it's still hard. I mean, it's still harder because of blank. There you go. It's like a cheat code. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. That is.

How about you? I mean, you're a writer's team. I was saying only be allowed to write horror for the rest of my life. Yeah. Because I got scared with the never being able to again. Yeah. But you found a cheat code now. That's a good cheat code.

I like it. I will say that. You're basically just saying the other answer. That's the cool thing about horror is the rules are really. Yeah. You can extend it. And especially supernatural. Again, Widdow's point is the only supernatural thing I've really written at length.

And again, you know, not the brightest. I just kind of hit myself in the head when I was done. And I'm like, dude, why do you wait this long? That's the cool thing about supernatural. There really are no rules. No. Yeah. You can do this and you can do that.

And with books like these, as you know, there are some pretty strict. Oh, yeah. If you want the reader to really be carried, you've got to be logical. Yes. In a lot of places. With Widow's point, we had none of that. That's just remember we had such freedom from that. And so that's why I want to go back to that world again at some point.

But yeah, I, you know, the only, I, you know, the only, I, I, you know, I, I, you know, The only, yeah, I mean, Westerns, you know, I love Westerns, but I'm not going to write. Went too much research. I've got a romance in me at somewhere. Really? I've got a love story in there somewhere. Hey, I love that. All right.

Right on you and Kara's love story. I want to know all about it. You are. You are. When you read the next one, you'll pretty much know. Perfect. You'll get a little bit. People, somebody said that in an Instagram comment recently.

They're like, and especially, they're talking about the characters and especially Kara, I feel like I had such an insight to your relationship. Yep. And how she, you know, reacts to you. And I was just like, because I wrote, I definitely wrote about it, you know, half the time she's putting up with me and trying to rein me in and being like, no, that's really not a good idea, Rich. And those kind of things. So, yeah, even in the third book, I'm, you know, there's a lot of like, if I do this, she's going to kill me. Yep.

But ultimately, I have to. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of the stuff with Karen and I is just spot on where it's just like, you know, when you've known someone for. How many years? You're like counting in your life? Like 45 years. Really?

Yeah. Wow. That's beautiful. I love love. Maybe not quite 45, but close. And yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, just put a metal in her chest right now.

Oh. Because, yeah, I'm a pain in the ass. But you admit it. See, that's the good thing. Yeah. You're her pain in the ass. I am like the ultimate work in progress. Not everybody knows there a pain in the ass.

So that's a good quality. Yeah. And everybody should be a work. Yeah, I'm sure. I was new down deep. But yeah, it took me a while. And she will describe me. She will say he is the most mature person I know and the most immature person I know.

That's my husband to a T. That dynamic. You know. Yeah. That dynamic, I feel like that's got to be a good thing, right? Oh, yeah. You don't want too much of both. You know, at least you get both.

I will say that. I'm like, imagine being married to a guy with patches on his elbows of his jacket. And he loves going to dinner parties and talking. politics and this and this and this. And I'm like, you would kill him. You would strangle him in his sleep. 100%. Yeah. And she's like, well, but I'd still like to. But if he didn't wear a hat everywhere and he didn't, you know, he didn't come out with like the worst off color jokes at the worst time sometimes. That would be good too, Rich. You're like, yeah. Keeps down your toes, right? Yeah. Would you rather write the greatest book of your career, but nobody.

reads it or write a book that you secretly think is the worst of your career and have it become your most successful. You know, I'd rather write the greatest book. Yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, if when I turn a book in, you know, I never, like I said, I'm not one of those writers who's like, everyone's going to love it. Oh, yeah. I am just like, again, hopefully, if they hate it, hopefully they don't hate it until they bought it. Yeah. They don't figure that out before they've actually I get the sale. Cash in. It really is like, I, I, I, I, always say that. I'm like, all right, this is the best I could do right now. So I'm happy with it. Yeah. And that same thing, when I do that final edit, I tried to teach Billy. You know,

I'm like, look, you're going to edit right until the very end. You're a copy edit. And then you're going to, you know, get the design pages and da-da-da-da. I said, and then you're going to freak out because you're going to realize I just sent back, you know, 350 pages with marks on 110 of them. Yeah. And they're going to print next week. And I'm like, that's why I don't read them when they come out, you know. And I'm like, because I don't want to know what I would change. And I'm just like, yeah. So I'm the happiest I can be with it at that point, then I'm done. And I just say, hey, if the readers, you know, respond to it, that's wonderful.

If they don't, that's okay. Yeah. There'll be another one. And some writers like, don't believe that. They're like, I don't believe it. You know, and I'm like, I genuinely feel that way. Yeah. Which is, again, a gift.

Yeah. It's how you have to go into it, I feel like. But I feel like so many writers tell me otherwise. And I'm just like, well, then I'd hate to be in your shoes. because I would never be happy with anything, and I would always be kind of looking over my shoulder at what I should have done differently. And I'm just like, I, you know, when Billy does appearances with me, he literally is like, Dad, you need to pick up the book so you remember the character's names and stuff. Because I'm like, who care asked me that? Do you have to refresh yourself on any of the boogeyman's stuff?

I'm like, it's me, no. And finally, in this case, I don't. Yeah, I know all the names. That was the genius of it. I remember the detective's name and everything else and Carly, you know, and all that. I'm like, yeah, thank God. So, but with other books, yes. I'm like, oh my God.

And readers are like, how can you do it? I'm like, they're gone, man. I'm like, I'm on to the next world now. Well, you read them like 100,000 times during the editing process. But by that time, you're like, I don't want to read it again. I'm all done. So if I genuinely felt like I wrote the best book, I would be so happy. Yeah.

And if no one read it, I'd be like, that's all right. That's how I feel. Because I'm like, I would just be like, well, that's my favorite book. It's fine. Yeah. It's fine. I wrote it and it's here and it exists. Yes.

Whatever. Yeah. I get it. I would feel that exactly. And Kara goes through that phase with me, too, where it's just like, you know, how is it going? It's fine. It's fine. It's all right. You know, I don't know if anyone's going to like it. And then when I am finally ready to turn it in, she's always overjoyed at the, you know what, I like it. Yeah. I like that. I'm okay with it. So, you know, hopefully they like it. If they don't, I like it.

Yeah. John always loves when I get to that point. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's moments where I'll wake up and like reread what I wrote. And there's some days that I'll look at it. And I'm like, are you okay? Like, did you stroke out while writing? this is horrible. Like, who wrote this? And then the next day I'll wake up and read and read something and be like, oh my God, did I write this? Like, it's just like, who wrote that? And isn't it even worse when it's about the language as opposed to the plot or the storytelling? Oh, yeah. It's like, because, you know, I try to write so it's very readable. So you don't see the work and it's just like, you know, hey, I didn't have to stop and look up any words. And I read 10 pages before I knew it. So then when I read it and it's the language and it's still to hear or it's just like, I'm like, there's no flow. There's no melody.

here. I'm like, who did that? Who is this? Like, someone got on my computer and did this. This is awful. What the hell? And it's the same when I like it. Sometimes I'm like, somebody got in here and wrote an amazing paragraph.

It's like, that sentence really sings. Wow. I wonder how many times they did it because I don't remember it. Dang, who was that? Damn. So now we're going to go to the boogeyman portion of it. Okay. All right.

So would you rather it be that Joshua Gallagher is real? and he wants to kill you or that Joshua Gallagher is real and wants to be your bestie. Well, in an act of self-preservation, I'd rather he wants to be my best. I think that's very valid. I would go for that. You don't want to be his bestie, but like shit might get weird, but probably better than being killed. Yeah, because I have the genuine thoughts of, you know, if these books attracted the wrong person and all that. I'm sure you do to.

Yeah. Especially when I'm taking the trash out. honestly. I'm sure, yeah. I'm just like because that would be it's got to be in your head. That would be the cinematic. Oh, absolutely. You know, all those serial killers that want to be remembered and want to be news items and the whole thing that would be the way to do it is to copy off the book. And all the public proclamations of my dumb ass saying, taking the trash out is terrifying for me, yet I still do it. So why not? You know, it's the perfect laying weight. Just so you know, he has a taser with him when he does it. So, oh, I'm ready to run. I'm alert.

He's heavily armed. I'm heavily armed. I'm like 12 years old when I'm taking the trash out. Yeah. So, yeah, I would rather he wants to be my body. And I'm just like, oh, God, I got a pest. Yeah. Who wants to eat my, you know, kidney. But, like, I won't let him.

We'll figure it out. Carol protect me. Yeah, he won't. Your besties. Exactly. All right, this one's a little more intense. You receive a letter from Joshua Gallagher that just says, I know. Or would you rather wake up and find a Polaroid of yourself sleeping, just tucked

on your nightstand? The letter. Yeah. I take the letter. Yeah, the letter. And I don't even care what he does. I mean, there's plenty of stuff he could be talking about probably in my brain, including some messed up stuff I've probably forgotten about.

Yeah. I know I haven't killed anybody. So it's not that. Yeah. But yeah, the Polaroid. Yeah. Those again, those are, again, that's the kind of storytelling stuff that is just, that rocks my world. Yeah.

Same. Yeah. The fact that someone was there when I didn't know it and left this momentum, the fact that. That's the scariest thing I've ever heard. All of us. Yeah. That was drawn partially from one of the. My books, actually.

Yep. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. I was going to say, you guys must have fun making up these questions. Yeah. It is fun, especially the woodchew riders. But they're also messed up.

Exactly. Yeah, that's like us. They're fun. I'm going to be asking my friends this all week. Would you rather? Would you rather do this? You're like, can I get a copy of this list? You get to know people when you ask these questions.

I think that's our last question. That is it. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Thank you so. I know, you're like, no stare. You're like, geez.

I mean, I was waiting for the, what if, you know, the Swedes love candy. So what if you had to have this bag of candy or that? Oh, that's tough. That's good. I take it all. Yeah, truly. We're all about food and all that stuff. Oh, hell, yeah.

Oh, we have a whole spread waiting. Wherever we travel, it's all about finding the good food spot. And, you know, when my son was playing lacrosse, I was texting like the commentators who I knew from, you know, other things and being like, you travel everywhere. Where's the best food I can get at Notre Dame? And where's the best pizza here? We found a great pizza spot in Westminster. Yeah, in Western Maryland the other day. And it's just, you would have thought we won the lottery.

We're like eating in the car like teenagers because we wanted to get home to the dogs. And we're like, this isn't just good. This is really good. Oh, and you find a good food spot. I love a fellow food. Oh, and I forgot. She bought a slice of cheesecake from that restaurant. So that was in the middle part of the car.

You got plastic fork. That's big living. And I opened it and it's half eaten. I'm like, what the hell? She goes, I told you I ate it beforehand. I had to make sure it wasn't poison. That was pretty much. We bonded over food right away.

I love that. As teenagers. To be honest. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you. This has been so fun. You are welcome back anytime. Thank you.

I was going to say, this is like this, this felt like I just got to hang out with Fred. Oh, I love that. That's how we felt. Yeah. That's how we felt. Yeah. I'll come back anytime you guys want some weird out to come on here. Hell yeah.

We'll definitely have people back on. And everybody check out killing the boogeyman. It's coming out October 6th. Yes. So pre-order it. Go get it. Thank you. Awesome.

Get the other. two books too. I'm telling you they're awesome. I read them like so long ago. So I was already an OG like ready for this. Yeah. You can actually write me and I'll send you sign book plates and all the whole thing. I do that all the time. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, but yeah, but yeah, thank you for having me. No, thank you for coming. Anytime. This is been awesome. And this, like I said, this just felt like we were hanging out. They really did. That's like bonus. Hell yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it.

Weird. Oh, I did it too quick. No, you're just going to addicts. Thank you again to Ashley for sponsoring today's super special book club episode. Guys, your home is the setting for your life's most cherished memories or your most cherished book club. And now is the time to write the newest chapter in your home's history. Ashley is focused on helping people create a comfortable, functional, and stylish home that

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