Morbid - Morbid Chats With Heather Bish **AD FREE**

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Before recording episode 214, The Tragic Case of Molly Bish, we reached out to Molly’s sister Heather who has been working tirelessly to get Molly’s case solved. Heather was kind enough to join us for an episode to give us an inside scoop on all the work she’s been doing to get Molly’s case solved, and just to let us in on who Molly was as a sister, a daughter and as a friend. Let’s all work together and get this case solved! TO HELP YOU CAN: Call the MA state police with any tips regarding Molly’s case at 508-453-7575 Contact your regional State Legislator to ask them to support S1595, An act permitting familial searching and partial DNA matches in investigating certain unsolved crimes. (You can find their numbers and email here: Molly Bish Foundation Read the Bill here: Bill S1595 Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. A very special morbid. This is a super special morbid. And I'm so, we just got off the phone with a very special guest. And I'm like hyped that we got to do this. Yeah, it was amazing. It was. So in episode 214, we covered the case of Molly Bish. Molly Bish was a 16-year-old lifeguard who on the morning of June 27, 2000, was essentially abducted from her lifeguard post and really just honestly go back and listen to the episode if you need like a refresher or anything like that in plain daylight yeah because in plain daylight she was abducted from her it was literally 10 o'clock in the morning yeah terrifying it's so scary but we before actually i we did the episode i actually reached out to molly's sister heather who's like very active in trying to solve molly's

case because this is an unsolved case yeah so before it's like 20 plus years later it's so crazy And it's, it's so sad. It's like a very tragic case. And we're from Massachusetts. So it's like, right. I feel like everybody from Massachusetts feels like they have some kind of like personal stake in this case. Like you just, you want to see this.

And like you'll hear in the interview, we love the Bish family. And I just feel like they are like our family. Yeah. We want this case to be solved for them. They're like our Massachusetts brethren. They are. Before, I mean, I read a ton about Heather before I started or while I was researching the case because she's so.

involved in trying to figure everything out. So we actually reached out to Heather and said, hey, you know, we're going to cover Molly's case. If you want to come on the show for like an afterwards kind of interview to tell us about the work that she's been doing to really get this case solved. And then tell us what we can do and the numbers that we can call and reach out to to to help her get this case solved. Exactly. Because this is unsolved, which is nuts. So I'm so stoked that Heather was willing to do that. And she joined us for an episode. And you guys are, going to love this episode. She's amazing. You're all going to fall in love with her. Heather Bish is an icon, everybody. And what we talk about a lot in this, I just want to put it out first so that everybody

can like start Googling it while it's beginning, because it's important is she's really starting to try, or starting, she's really in the deep in the process of trying to push forward the bill, which is S1595 in Massachusetts. And she will, I'll let her explain in the episode what it's all about. it's basically to help push forward DNA that was found in Molly's case and also can help in other cases for rape kits. It has tons of implications. So go look that up real quick before the episode starts because I think you're going to want to know what's in there. Yeah, definitely. And then after the episode is over, whip out your cell phone and just start calling everyone we said to call. Yeah, we'll take a look at the show notes. I'll make sure I put all the information in there for you

guys to so we can get this case solved. It's time. It is. It's time. It's time. Time for Molly and it's time for the bishes. Time for this all. So I think without further ado, here it is. Enjoy, guys. Well, thank you so much, Heather, for coming on the show. We're honestly really honored to have you as a guest and we appreciate you even taking the time to talk to us.

Oh, that's so kind. You guys are really, I'm appreciative with what you're doing and sharing these stories and sharing Molly's story, especially. you know that that's so important especially with these older cases I mean this is this podcast phenomenon has just been so interesting to me and I'm just like cheering all of you you guys on the sidelines so I love it you know for every case that's getting pieces of information coming forward or even arrests happening I'm just in awe of the work of all the excuse me creators that are out there you know really sharing these stories so I am

I'm honored. Thank you so much. That was so sweet. We were both just sitting there like, oh my God. Thank you. Already off to a wholesome start. I know, right? Well, like you, I mean, like you were saying, this case, Molly's case specifically, it captivated, I mean, the nation. It captivated everyone. And we got requests to cover Molly's case from all over the world. Like, before we covered it, people were like, please cover this case. And we were always waiting to do it because we wanted to do it really right because we're from Massachusetts too. So we were like- We felt like a connection to this. Yeah, we feel like this is like one of our family members because you know here in Massachusetts we're all just like feeling like we're one.

So we're like, we got to do this right. And I think when that happens, it can be, you know, it can be great because like information is getting out there. People are behind this case, wanting to solve it, wanting to move it forward. But I imagine it must be kind of hard to in a way for family members because you have memories of Molly as a sister. Your brother has memories of Molly as a sister. Your parents have memory of Molly as a daughter. She was a lifeguard. She was a friend. She was a person. She's not just Molly Bish, the murder victim. And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation, which I imagine can be kind of difficult for you guys at times. It is. And I, you know, I think there's some, you know, there's some, I don't know, I think when there's like a benefit of being able to talk about Molly, I think when you lose someone you love, whether it's a sibling or a spouse or your best friend, you know, people can kind of get weird and they don't want to say anything.

And sometimes they'll even avoid walking down the same hallway as you, you know, just to not be in that awkward position. And I think, and so, you know, people don't get a chance to talk about the person that they loved, you know, and sometimes people are afraid to bring it up because, you know, that loss was so sad and so devastating. But having the chance to talk about Molly, you know, and share, you know, the work that we do is really a reflection of Molly's love and her love for the world and people. And it's kept us going. And I guess that is a really special privilege of all this craziness and all the ugliness is that we do get to talk about my sister and think about her and share how our special memories and our moments of joy and how we were proud of her. And sometimes my brother and I will, you know, have conversations after we, you know, I do these podcasts or where there's a, you know, news article or something. And we'll talk about what do you think she'd be like? Or who would she still be friends with from her friend group?

Or what would she think of this particular situation? Or, you know, and it's kind of, you know, fun for us to do that, to imagine what our life would be like to have her with us still because we miss her. I mean, that loss is still felt every single day. You know, I miss calling her when something good happens. I really miss her on my birthday. I hate my birthday without my sister. It's still awful 20 years later.

I just, she should be there with me. And every year that I have to face without her, it's like, you know, ripping that scab off and bleeding again. So, yeah, it's hard, but there's, there is, you try to, I guess, when there's hard things, always look for those moments that offer, you know, the good and and try to embrace that because I don't know how we would survive all this terrible stuff in the world if we didn't seriously I can't even imagine trying to navigate this whole

entire thing you know on top of everything else in the world so right I you have such a healthy way of looking at it yeah that I think a lot of people would have trouble doing so we plug mental health and making care of emotional health right now and yes be not afraid to go to therapy for 20 years. Absolutely. Because it's so important to continue to unwrap how you're responding to the world and how your family culture sort of trained you to respond to the world and how we either want to continue that or maybe think about a different way of doing it.

Exactly. Yeah, we're Irish Catholic over here, so we know all about that. Yeah, we grew up in a big Irish Catholic family. We're like, maybe we should talk about our family. feelings. I just love the generation. Again, I work at a college, so I have the privilege of working with the younger generations. And I just love how they're growing up so much more inclusively and talking about feelings. And I just think it's going to make a better world someday. Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. Absolutely for sure. I know. And it's really up to us at this point

to teach the younger generation how to do that. Because I think our parents' generation was like, right at that point where they were like kind of ready to tell us to talk about our feeling the line. It gets better each time. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Well, going off of that, what is like one thing about Molly from a sister's perspective that you want people to know about Molly or even like a specific memory that you guys have together that makes you smile? I think I always talk about Molly's love for the world. She loved people. She loved animals. She loved babies. She loved being outside. The sunshine, a beautiful day, getting an ice cream cone. She loved living. She loved life. She loved being a part of what was happening around her. And I think, you know, when I think about Molly and I, I guess I'm always most proud of how she welcomed people. When she had an art class, she had some special needs students in there.

tell the story of how she would write them a note and kind of like encouraging them to be a part of the class and welcoming them and making them feel at home because they weren't in the other classes with the rest of the students. They weren't like a separate classroom. And, you know, just her empathy and her ability to think about other people, that thoughtfulness. And I try to carry that out with me in my life and think about different perspectives and turn things over all the time and because of my sister. And she was my baby sister, but that's what she taught me in my life. And, you know, I hope that people know that the work that we do is because of that,

because Molly cared so much about people. She cared so much about the world and, you know, making people feel safe and comfortable in their environment. And that's, you know, that's sort of, you know, the premise of everything that we want to see happening in it. You know, I guess when you have a case that's 20, almost 21 years old, you're like, where is this guy and has me hurt other people? And you, you know, you guys explore all these various cases and you know, there's a lot of bad guys out there. There's a lot.

And it's so scary. And you can go from, you know, being a narcissist to a murderer in, you know, a short time. Right. And again, you know, that mental health is so important. But, you know, I think just trying to, you know, live in a way that we're trying to make the world safer because of Molly. And so, you know, recently I've been working on this familial DNA legislation in Massachusetts, which they have in, I think, 14 other states. And it's just really just a process to test DNA or unidentified DNA. from an older case or an older, you know, maybe a rape case or a murder,

and be able to have a larger, I call it a net to sort of get the bad guy. And, you know, we have this coded system that has all of our felonies in their DNA profiles, theoretically. I know you guys know this. Oh, yeah. No, go ahead. Yeah. Because this is Bill, is it S-1595? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because we were going to ask you, like, by all means, tell us as much as you can about that.

Yeah. We want everybody to know about that. Yeah. So it just really, what it does is it allows law enforcement to put this unidentified DNA forward into CODIS again and tough for a partial mat or a familial mat. So it might, you know, touch on someone 56, percent or 37 percent but that will lead investigators to say hmm someone in this family committed this rape or committed this murder and they can go back to the drawing board and sort of figure out where the players were in that family that day it narrows the fields like unbelievable and i and what's interesting to me that i found out is that 50 percent of the people in codis have a relative in codis so it's so funny because i came across that too and it shocked me. I know. That's a high number. But then I thought like, okay, well, there's a lot of teachers in my family. That's my family culture. And I guess if, you know,

you're in a family culture that, you know, rates or molests each other, that's going to continue. Yeah. And so they want to be to have, you know, people getting arrested in the same family networks that are experiencing that trauma. I mean, we all know that these behaviors aren't, you know, coming out of the blue. Most people are turning to crime and these horrific things they do to other people because of trauma. Oh, yeah. Nurture is a huge part of it. Yeah. So, you know, that's a sad societal number, sorry, for us. But if we look at it in a law enforcement perspective or a victim perspective, those are, I mean, those are, those are odd I'd put money on at a casino, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, seriously. You know, we're going to get the bad guy.

And we're using science. And it hasn't, you know, you know, identified the wrong person. You know, it's actually used by the Innocence Project in Michigan as a way to garnerate people. So really, it's just for this bill, it's just setting up a protocol in how we would do it in Massachusetts. And I'm just really, really hopeful that, you know, we can get this through. We have an 8,000, about 8,000 rape kits.

backlog in Massachusetts. So we need to get on top of what's happening forensically in our state. I mean, we're leaders with MIT and WTI. There's no reason. We're cranking out forensic scientists in Boston, and they're all leaving the state. We need to, you know, sort of put some resources together for our forensic, I think. Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah, we need to nourish this. We have it here. We're building it here. We need to nourish it here. We need to nourish it. it here. Right. Exactly. And, you know, we have a lot of, you know, Worcester County alone have 40 to 60 unresolved cases. That's so crazy. So sad. They go back to the 50s and, you know, technology might be able to identify this by now, you know. So it's just, I think it's just so

important to use what, what scientific, you know, resources are available for law enforcement. I mean, in today's society, I mean, there's, you know, good cops and bad cops, just like everything, good teachers and bad teachers. Of course. And we want to give the good police officers all the tools available to get those bad people off the street. So, you know, there aren't like, they're on 8,000 rates happening. Yes. Because I think that's one of the huge things about this is this bill can not only help cases like Molly's and families, you know, that are going through the same thing that you're going. through. But this can, those rape kits that are sitting on the shelf, it's like this can get rapists

off the street. Like, this is something everybody should be invested in and everybody should be behind. Absolutely. 100%. And, you know, some of these rates are violent. Yeah. You know, like I keep trying to stress and I, you know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir with you guys, but, you know, it's a, it's a hair's breath away when when someone commits one crime to go to the next level. Of course. or, you know, is in a state of sort of paranoia or psychosis to go, you know, further, deeper. I think we just, you know, we need all our tools available.

Absolutely. Because some of these can connect to more violent, you know, offenders. Offenses, yeah. Like, you know, somebody raped someone and they could have escalated to something else and we have no idea. Right. Yep, exactly. Exactly. Do you think, oh, sorry, go ahead.

Oh, so I was just going to say, you know, I'm just really hopeful this time that it will go through because we started this about two years ago. I had talked to my law enforcement detectives and they had asked that, you know, Heather, if you want to work on something, we could really use this familial DNA. And I had no idea what it was at the time. I'm just like, okay, let's do it. Sure. You're like anything. Let's go for it. You know, being in Massachusetts, they're like, yeah, the state has done this as a policy.

and Massachusetts is like, nope, we want a law. It's just a higher thing. Thanks, Mass. But I'm like, I will climb every mountain. I will scream from the mountain top until I get this guy. And who care how far it takes me, I am bound and determined. And, you know, now it's, you know, when you're in that club, you know, that everybody talks about that nobody wants to belong to like this. You know, you really start caring about all these other victims, particularly the ones that at a time.

attention. Like I constantly talk about Patty Gagne, who was murdered and with their brother founder the next day. You know, people didn't search for Patty like they did for Molly, you know, she didn't get the national attention that Molly has gotten. And, you know, I just hope that maybe this will help solve Patty Gagne's case, too. Absolutely. It's important as all these other victims that I've seen on the news and in podcasts. And, And, you know, so, yeah, we're all in this together. And, you know, I'm just really hopeful that this will go through this time because we, during COVID, it kind of fell apart. And I was on the Massachusetts person's task force.

So we were kind of looking at legislation that was floating around in Massachusetts and trying to put a report together to encourage the legislators that just passed this kind of no brainer. So they said, well, don't we. why don't we send your bill, Heather, over to the forensic oversight committee. And, you know, being an educator, I'm like, yes, I am used to looking with, like, you know, when I have a problem, I'm working with the autism specialist and, you know, the fourth grade teacher. And, you know, we're all kind of coming up with something together. And I literally did this bill myself. You know, a special ed teacher, not a friend's ex-execided.

But here we go. You're like, I am putting on another hat. Seriously. So it worked out really. well because they provide the feedback where we were able to edit the bill really to fit our logistical structures on systems in Massachusetts. And I think it's going in really strong. And I've been spending probably the last two months calling legislators and just asking them to support this.

And most of them will see me or see me over Zoom and have been really supportive. But some of them won't meet missing because I'm not in their jurisdiction. So I've been trying to start doing TikToks and whatever media I can use to sort of get people who are in, you know, just people to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill and be the voice that I can't be in their jurisdiction to possibly get this past. You know, it's important for victim families. It's important for law enforcement. And it's most important for the justice where all these victims that we have. 100% definitely do you is there anything else that people can do like people listening other like call legislation obviously yeah i would say that would be the most important thing if people could call their legislators and just ask them to support

us 1595 um in Massachusetts and we have a list of legislators on our website oh great molybisc.com. So people, if you don't know who your legislator is or turned over, you know, things are kind of crazy this year with COVID. Who knows who's who or what's what. But that's good. You have that right there for people to find. And we'll share, we'll put that the link in our show notes for this. So people will have all the places they can go.

Yeah. We can even post like a picture of it. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Oh, absolutely. I think this is like huge. I'm, we are fully like, yes, let's do this.

When we stepped into this case and just kind of started going through everything, I think because we are sisters, it almost gave us that extra edge that like we want to help you. We feel so connected to this. Yeah, it felt like Molly was like, we felt like your family reminded us so much of our big Massachusetts family. Like we just, your parents just like, I remember us in the episode, we're just like, oh my God, I just love this family and I want them to get justice so badly. Oh, thank you so much.

I just, you know, I feel like that's, you know, Molly's love signing down somehow. When I started this, it's so interesting. There was a, you know, a little article in the Cape Cod Times. I live out here in Cape Cod now. And so this man emailed me from California. His name is Rock Harmon, and he's actually this DNA expert that travels the world training law enforcement and prosecutors and sense attorneys on using DNA in the different tools and DNA. And I don't know who I'm talking to, but he was very nice and really coaching me and

helping me really understand the science part, which was really imperative for me to do this. Yeah, huge. So turns out he was a former prosecutor on the OJ Simpson case. Oh, wow. just so touched by, you know, what had happened in that case, that that became sort of a mission for him. And, you know, retired in California

and he's been, you know, sending me articles and explaining things for me, going to meetings with me, talking to district attorneys to explain, and the little nuances between like YSPR profiles and familial DNA. And what is this, one of these little differences. So he, you know, to me, those are, like, Like when Mr. Roger talked about, look for the, you know, look for the helpers.

Yes, look for the helpers. That's the helpers and that's, you know, those are the things you hold on to in life and remember all the good and the good people that are still out there because we're much stronger than, you know, these people who are really sick and committed or sick acts. Right. And there's been a lot of people of interest, it seems, over the course of the past 20 years. Is there anyone on the suspect list that, or anyone as a person of interest that you

think is a good candidate for this? Or do you think that it's someone we maybe even haven't looked at yet? Yeah, I wish, you know, I wish I could just feel like, you know, that's the surly connection, that that's the guy. But there's so much circumstantial, circumstantial evidence. So much. some particular people that have been out there in the media and um you know there's always that wild that was just someone that happened to go smoke a cigarette asked before he went to work or after he dropped off you know his mother asked at an appointment or something and saw this wife's guard there and then came back the next day and grabbed her um you know i i've never really been able to identify the guy in the

white car. He's never come forward. So could he be Rodney's Stanker? Could he be Darryl Bavisdoni? Could he be, you know, any of the number of other people that have been brought up? Possibly, possibly, because we know witness, you know, testimony is kind of tricky. And my mom, you know, saw the guy, but, you know, it's hard to say, that's the guy, that's the guy. That's definitely the guy. They all look like the guy. Yeah, they all do in some specific way. It's true. It must be so frustrating. too because I'm sure you get this really giant feeling of hope every time a new person is introduced. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, I do. And, you know, you just, you know, you try to make sense of who would, how would they exist after and who, you know, who could possibly do this after 20 years and just sit. You know, what are they doing now? I mean, that's, I think what gives me the most anxiety is where is this guy and what is he doing? If he's in jail, great. If he's dead, great. If he's one of those two guys and he's either dead or in jail, then okay. But I know.

And so it's hard to rest, you know. Oh, I can't imagine. You know that. And, you know, I wish I could, you know, no. You know, we talked to psychics. I mean, when Molly first disappeared, I had an 11-month-old baby, and I would have found my hip and I'd be running through the woods with these psychics. And I mean, I didn't know if I was going to find my sister's body or something, you know.

It was so terrifying, but you didn't know what to do and you're just trying to do something. But, you know, no one's ever been able to say exactly and point me to the evidence. I mean, I've worked with some really, really great psychics, I think are, you know, meaning well and authentic, but still have not been able to break down, you know, who did this. And, you know, so I've tried, I've tried every avenue for sure. I mean, we've put up billboards. We've taken out ads and newspapers. We've, um, I put up posters in 351 towns and Massachusetts. And, um, you know, I've actually hired producers to document a YouTube movie video.

Um, so, so that I could keep my, you know, parent story and, and, and, uh, sort of a summary on the story and be able to share it because of the time lapse and people not, you know, necessarily remembering what happened. Right. So, you know, it was tied everything and, you know, the results of the familial searching and across the country are just so phenomenal and really hopeful and, you know, that even the genetic genealogy work they're doing. Yeah.

I'm just so hopeful that Massachusetts will really grab onto that. and demonstrate, you know, the leadership that they should be having in this field, I think. Yeah, because it does feel like it's like right there. It could be in there. Like it could be hidden in there somewhere. Why are we not doing this? I mean, the stuff they're doing in California is unbelievable. Yeah.

I mean, we have this controversy right now with these YSTR lists. And some of the district attorneys are keeping. what the forensic lab in Massachusetts is calling rogue lists, but I would probably just call them unregulated. Yeah, that makes sense. So they would get like a profile back. You know, they might get a crime scene DNA or sometimes they're even using voluntary DNA. But they're, you know, putting it through the lab. It doesn't have a hit.

Then they're keeping the profile separately. I'm not really supposed to do that. But there's nothing saying that they can't do that. And Bristol County was able to solve a case with Clemens working together on that. The thing is, YSTI only gives you father-son profile, so it's a little more limiting. Oh, okay. But, and so if you did, like, if you, like, if I was in charge of the world or the, you know, you do the first codist search, right? And then you do the submiss because that's going to catch the YSTR net.

you actually don't need the YFTR profile if you do the familial kind of negates it. Oh, that makes sense. Right. Yeah. So, but I mean, if they're not in codis, I mean, you know, there's value to it. It's just regulated. Orange County uses it in California, and they basically will, like, let a guy off on a misdemeanor. He gives them their DNA, and then they test them for a rape, you know, three months later.

I mean, they're dealing with probably a different population. gang life out there and stuff, but, you know, it's an effective tool and certainly has demonstrated to be effective here. And I think that maybe is just maybe a separate bill that needs to be put forward differently. But I always try to explain it because, you know, it's on the news and sometimes the reporters don't go into the whole story of what's really happening here. And, you know, I get why the DAs are doing it. Again, they want to sell these 8,000. rates that are backlogged at the labs. They're definitely committed to getting the bad guys off the street. It's just, you know, again, I think we just need to update our 22E law and make these, you know,

changes to our protocols so that we can do these tests and, you know, have these tools and see what happen. Definitely. One of the things that we actually talked about in our episode was at the old sawmill campground that you guys use the ground penetrating. radar and I didn't really see any update on that after like 2018 was that any did anything like useful come of that or anything at all oh that was a good one so I you know have have worked with a number of different private investigators over you know since I guess when my father had a stroke I kind of took over the investigation in 2007 so I worked up for a couple different ones bringing different people forward.

We had a volunteer in our foundation who, you know, was volunteering in 2003 when she was getting her degrees in criminal, criminology and forensics and stuff like that. She ended up getting a doctorate and moving back here, you know, a few years before that ground penetrating car thing happened. And she was trying to help me because, you know, again, I'm like running out of ideas. like, okay, I put up, you know, posters, I put up ads, I put up, you know, all these things. What else can I do? And so we came up with an idea of doing a tips campaign, and she was going to use her students

from college where she taught to collect the tips, and then we sort of organized them and then present them to the police. And so that's how this third person of interest sort of came forward that she sort of identified to this tip campaign. Because of that, she felt really strongly that there was a car in this campground. So she arranged with someone from the University of Connecticut to come out and use this ground penetrating radar. However, our state police were not involved in it.

And I was at my daughter's, she was just starting college orientation. And so we were, you know, I was available and it turned into sort of this media circus. and I was kind of upset because it was supposed to be like, you know, I like to work with the police. You know, again, I recognize all the issues. I literally have a book ready to publish on my relationship with the movies and how it's impacted my life. Oh, wow. Congratulations on writing a book. That's huge.

I got a couple edits to do, but, you know, I still try to work with them. I try to encourage breast practices and, and, and, you know, I still try to encourage breast practices and have the hope that this institution is going to, you know, someday get the concept here. That's great. So if I could just change that lightly enough. But so, so I was kind of upset that she, you know, had it turn out this way. And so I was like, let's see some of this. I don't want to do this anymore.

And she just kept pushing. She ended up having a press conference. without my my our knowledge acknowledged oh no oh no he says so it really and I was like you're you've crossed my boundaries now yeah absolutely let's stop this now and so I never found out what happened with the car I don't think it's I'm certain that the police could get that information and they were so irritated and so close to charging her that it never so i don't think that there's anything to the campground or the car okay that makes sense yeah and so frustrating yeah and then she wrote a book after oh oh my goodness yeah that is not okay but you know what she did it would have been fine if she had done like a case

study on molly yeah yeah again she had the education to do that but she put my parent speeches into the book and like put herself into our story like she was part of our life oh oh that that honestly like gives me like a pit in my stomach yeah i was gonna say my stomach just that's so gross literally like you wrote letters to molly in this book like if you read this book holy smoke oh hate that i'm see that's the thing that's frustrating like yeah to have to go through that yeah very betraying very violating yeah that's the thing violation is what it feels like right yeah yeah yeah very very much so oh so um Yeah, I mean, that's where that went.

So we're kind of just doing this on my own, but I'm so appreciative of these, you know, podcasts updating about the case and, you know, the work that we're trying to do to keep it going. And, you know, I'm not sure what I'll have to do after this bill, but I'm sure there's more work to be done to support these cases. You know, I was talking to a producer the other day, and I said, if I told you that I was in a relationship with someone who, you know, dissuaded me and projected and, you know, and I kind of gave her some specific situations that had happened. And she was like, yeah, I would say you're an abusive relationship.

And I said, what if I told her that was a state police and it wasn't a man? Oh, my God. That was the perfect way to do that. That's awesome. No, the drop. Yeah. Oh. She's like, hold on a sec.

Does that change things? And I told her, I said, and then I'm a white woman with a sister who's blonde and blue eyed. And we know those cases get more attention. And I have a doctor. I'm educated. And I'm still treated this way. So how do you can't? And my father was in law enforcement. He was a probation officer. Right. So there's a little, you know, they're a little nice about my dad. But, you know, if they're treating me this way, how do you think they're treating Patty Gunny's family? You know? Absolutely. That's, I think, for probably a lifelong work that all of us victim family members are pushing and sort of trying to figure out how to, you know, get our points across and get them to understand our perspective without being sort of labeled the crazy victim family members.

Of course. Right. Well, and I feel like that's something we can all take from Molly and who she was and who, you know, you know, you. knew her as and who everyone who knew her knew her as, which is like empathy, caring about the world, caring about other people, like putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. This is what everybody should be learning is like it's not just about mine. It's about everybody else's too. You know what? It's like be Molly in art class. Yeah, exactly. Right. That should be everybody's thought. It should. I love it. I'm so happy you shared that with us. That made me honestly like choke up a little bit.

I know. That's great. Oh, thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. One of the other things that we had spoken about in our episode, and I was just curious as to your opinion on this, is the Holly Perinen case. I know it's like heavily compared to Molly's case and some of the suspects or persons of interest were looked at in both cases. Do you think that maybe those cases are connected or what are your thoughts on that? you know, I think that there is certainly lots of room to look at the connections. I think that's really incredibly important, but I don't necessarily think it's the same person. But I do that, you know, my father used to say, if you lay down with dogs, you're going to get, please. Yeah. Watch who your friends are, right? Absolutely.

So I kind of think that there's a group out in that area. again these generational trauma you know same kind of history of violence history of family violence history of beating history of law stations history of you know uncle Marion the cousin sister's brother you know like that kind of

stuff and they're all connected in these weird ways and that's the stuff I talk to the the text is about because I'm like do you understand this I know when I walk into your office it's not going to be like you know like the TV shows where you've got the all the guys and the strings connecting people and you know we always talk about that literally don't even

have data systems that talk to each other barely right so so to even look up a guy you know that some a while ago is is difficult for them and then to get the larger perspective of um sorry Oh no, it's okay. I have a dog too, so I get it. Dogs are real. And so to have those nuances and know that this guy was best friends with this guy or their cousins or they used to, I don't know, like, motorcycles together, like those little nuances, I'm afraid, are missed. Yeah. They don't know.

They're not from, you know, Warren Massachusetts or Sturbridge Massachusetts. So we don't necessarily know that, you know, I'm not making these names, but the Smiths are related to the Johnsons or whatever. They don't have that kind of network information. So that's the stuff, I'm afraid, gets lost. And those are the key pieces that I think could possibly show that there's a tie between Holly and Molly's case. I mean, different, you know, ages, different situations and how they were about

and certainly different times. And again, I keep trying to say. I mean, I think it's so easy to want to believe that it's one bad guy killing all these girls in the specific area, the sad reality is that there's a lot of different bad guys, and they're all killing different girls. Exactly. It's like indicative of like a darker pathology as a whole, right?

In the community, you know, that like a subculture isn't looked at. Yeah. Yep, exactly. Exactly. And that's what's so scary. And that's why it's so important to continue to look for ways to protect, you know, our children and our women and, you know, our society and, you know, sharing these stories and working on legislation and encouraging the mental health component, I think are just, you know, such important pieces to continue to talk about and discuss and provide. I had reasons why. Yeah.

Definitely. Exactly. I think... I mean... Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say real quick. I think one of the really transformative moments for me was when that little girl,

and I don't know if you remember, well, maybe two years ago now, there was a little girl abducted in Springfield, Massachusetts. Yes. And they remember a letter, and he was recovered. I mean, all right that she had been through some pretty bad trauma, but he was recovered alive. And I called my mom and I said, Mom, that was your stay. Because we always, when we started the foundation, we were always like, we don't know if we're really helping. You know, we don't know if we're saving children.

Like there's no, you know, data system saying, oh, this kid wasn't affected because, you know, Maggie Biss helped bring Amber Alert from Massachusetts or study this in Children's Day or, you know, started talking about child identification kits. So when that happened, and my mom did work on the Amber Alert Law coming to Massachusetts. that's been talked to Ted Kennedy into signing that bill. And so I felt like she needed that. She needed to know that that little girl had been saved because of her work and her efforts. And I think if we continue to do things like that, you know, other little girls will be saved.

And, you know, maybe we won't have to, you know, experience these kinds of tragedies and traumas anymore. And again, if we continue to look at trauma and understand it and try to support. people through it. You know, maybe things will look differently for everybody. Absolutely. I think that's like the main message that are right there. Right. And also your family is, you are such badasses. You have done such incredible work, all of you together. It's unreal. Oh, thank you. I mean, again, I think it's just, you know, an outlet to love my sister and, you know, share that love. And that's really all you. you can do in your face with something like this.

Yeah, no, it really is. I think, kind of just to end all of this, what is one last thing you can tell us all that we can do to help you and your family get Molly's case solved? Well, I think the best thing anyone could do right now is to go on molybic.com and find their Massachusetts legislator if they're in Massachusetts and reach out to him or her and ask them to support F-1595. to be passed this this year.

If you're not from Massachusetts, you know, continuing to share Molly's story, continuing to share the results of familial DNA analysis across the country. I mean, right now we only have about 14, 15 states that have it, and there's 50 states in this country. So we really get on this. Yeah. Certainly Molly's case and, you know, isn't the only case.

I mean, whether it spends in Minnesota, and Florida who have experienced equally traumatizing abductions in their family. And, you know, having these tools are important for all of us to have in this country and to keep us all safer. Absolutely. And I think I want to encourage everyone to go to the Molly Bish Foundation webpage, which we're going to link all of these things in the show notes so everybody can get to all of this. Also, if you want to read Bill S. 1595, I'm going to link.

where you can read that too because you can go on the mass legislator.gov website to find it. But I think it's important. Everybody should know that this is so far reaching. This is so necessary. It's so important that this bill goes through. So everybody give your support. Yeah, as a true crime community, let's come together and get this done. Absolutely.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. No, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. And everything you shared was just like so, so eye-opening. Thank you. Yeah, it really was. This was such an awesome conversation.

Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I just really appreciate you guys in your support and your dedication and, you know, being from Massachusetts. Yeah. Thank you so much. And we'll absolutely stay in touch. And if anything else that, anything else comes up that we can do to help, like, we really want to help work with you. Yeah.

we feel like very strongly about this case about you guys your family about mollie we would love to push this forward in any way we can awesome thank you so very much i will definitely stay in touch absolutely you are welcome anytime here you have our number now so text us anytime or call any updates we'll have you right back on okay thank you so much heather take care you too So we hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Yes. I think it was awesome. And you can go to the Mollybish Foundation.com, or excuse me, mollybishfoundation.com to contact

your legislators and ask them to support Bill S. 1595. Yeah, and we'll put all that in the show notes. So just look at where you look at the details for the episode and we'll have all those, all the links in there that you can follow. But do it. I think it's good for everybody. It's going to benefit us all. It is.

And thanks again to Heather for joining us. Thank you so much, Heather. You were a gem. So, guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But it's over there you don't call about Bill S. 1595. Woo!