Morbid - Peter Manuel: The Beast of Birkenshaw (Part 1)

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

With a violent criminal history going back to his early teen years, Peter Manuel turned out to be one of Scotland’s worst serial killers. His tumultuous early teenage years were peppered with break-ins and destruction of property, but quickly escalated to horrific acts of brutality.Thank you to the incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research!ReferencesBirmingham Post and Gazette. 1958. "3 shot dead: no gun found." Birmingham Post and Gazette, January 7: 1.Coventry Evening Telegraph. 1956. "Three dead in bungalow beds." Coventry Evening Telegraph, September 17: 1.Daily Record. 1956. "Fifth tee murder." Daily Record, January 5: 1.—. 1956. "Fifth tee murder: dramatic appeal." Daily Record, January 6: 1.—. 1957. "Teenager vanishes." Daily Record, December 30: 1.—. 1958. "Two sensations as trial opens." Daily Record, May 13: 7.Daily Telegraph. 1958. "1958." Daily Telegraph, May 15: 15.Evening Sentinel. 1956. "Bloodstains found on bed sheets." Evening Sentinel, September 17: 1.—. 1957. "Tjhick snow hampers moors hunt." Evening Sentinel, December 11: 1.Hull Daily Mail. 1957. "Police seek fresh clues in murder mystery." Hull Daily Mail, December 10: 5.Lundy, Iain. 2007. "Psychopath who brought terror to the west." Evening Times, December 27.MacLeod, Hector. 2009. Peter Manuel, Serial Killer. Edinburgh, Scotland: Mainstream Books.Nottingham Evening News. 1956. "Bungalow riddle: two women and girl dead in bed." Nottingham Evening News, September 17: 4.Silvester, Norman. 2022. The story of Scotland's first known serial killer Peter Manuel. October 10. Accessed June 9, 2024. https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/23034356.story-scotlands-first-known-serial-killer-peter-manuel/.The Times. 1958. "Statement on 8 murders." The Times, May 22: 5.Western Mail. 1958. "Watt denies shooting his wife." Western Mail, May 16: 5. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Hello. Lots of stuff going on, guys. Yeah, it's been, it's, it's, it's been like a shit. I feel like everybody's having a shitty week or like a shitty few days. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, I don't really know either. I think some mercury is in the air. I think, um, we're entering like Sagittarius season. Is that bad? I don't know. It feels bad. I don't know. I'm not even going to pretend like I know. Yeah, don't. Saj is my rising sign, so like I think I'm excited about it, but I thought it would be good for me. Maybe it is. Maybe it will be good for you. Maybe we just had to get through like a dark period.

But I feel like I've seen like everybody's kind of feeling this way or like a lot of people. Yeah. And yeah, and there's like some just shit going on in the world. Like we, I'm sure everybody has read about what happened this weekend. It's so in Waukesha, Wisconsin, a red SUV drove into a holiday celebration. Like, what the fuck is wrong with people? A holiday parade. So at least five people as of now were killed. Multiple were injured. Reports are saying more than 40 people were injured. That's so sad. Just several of these were children. And just going to a holiday parade. Children at a fucking holiday parade. Like, I'm just like what? No, it's come on. What is happening? Like, everything, people just suck right now. Yeah. Like, it really does. Like, I keep seeing like, you know, I'm seeing a lot of like on social media people being like, like other

creators and stuff. I keep seeing people being like, why are people so mean all of a sudden? Like, what's going on? And then we've stumbled upon some like really nasty things that I was like, cool, wish I didn't see that. So I'm like, what, what's going on? Can everybody just like let everybody else just like be happy? Here's the thing, guys. Live and let live. Yeah. Like, come on. Just if you live like that, it's just so peaceful. Exactly. Just like, I'm not. and bothered by anything. Stop trying to hurt people. Stop trying to physically hurt people.

Stop trying to emotionally hurt people. Like, it's just not cool. So I just don't understand it. But this whole thing is, I can't imagine the kind of evil son of a bitch you have to be to get into a red SUV and drive it through a holiday celebration where children are marching in a parade. Luckily, this person is in custody. We don't have any information about them. but like throw the actual book at them. Well, and I saw too that they, like the police believe that they were coming from another, like, incident.

Yeah, and I didn't get to read anything about that, but it wouldn't surprise me if you're willing to do it once. But I guess like a marching band was hit. A marching band in the parade. And the grannies. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm getting to the grannies. There was little girls just marching in Santa hats with like pom-poms. They were hit. Apparently, according to the Associated Press, like Ash was.

saying a group of older women called the Milwaukee Dancing Grannies was hit. What could be more pure? Like they had to, so they had to, and apparently the Milwaukee dancing grannies are like beloved. Of course they are. I love them. I love them and I don't even know them. Me too. What are you doing?

And they had to cancel this parade last year. It's an annual parade. And it's something like the 58th or something that's like a lot. It's been around forever. They had to cancel last year because of COVID. And they had themed this year. year's parade, comfort and joy. Oh, my God.

And then this motherfucker decides to just like take everybody's comfort and joy away. Let anyone just like exist happily. Just let someone exist. Everyone's so, I know everyone's angry with the pandemic and shit. Like I know everybody was stuck inside. People lost their jobs. Like it's been shitty. Like no one's, you know, feeling great.

But I feel like these are the times where like you should band together and like take care of your like fellow hum. It just feels like there's a lot of like I keep seeing like, you know, people like tweeting on, tweeting on Twitter. I see people like tweeting like why, you know, like I've seen other creators be like, wow, I stumbled upon some really mean comments and like that was a bummer. And I'm like, do you feel good? Did that, did that make you feel good that you just like ruin someone's day? Because if it did, you need to go like seek help.

Well, and if you're putting all of that into the universe, it all comes back. Yeah, it's like just put good shit into the universe. I'm telling you, if you just. just like boost other people up that deserve to be boosted. And if you don't like someone, walk on by. Man, just don't look at their shit. Don't not learn if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. Is that not the cardinal rule of like being a child?

Like let's all take that into our adulthood. I think it's just like I'm glad I'm teaching my girls to be kind. Yeah. And just drilling that into their heads. Like always be kind. And if you don't like someone, that's fine. Don't hang out with them. But don't be mean.

And if you see someone sitting by themselves, at least ask them if they want to hang out. Maybe they want to be alone. But you got to ask. I'm going to share this because it's a parenting win and Elena wouldn't share for herself. But the teacher pulls Elena aside the other day and told her that her two oldest girls, if they see somebody who's not getting played with, they go and play with them. And like, that's a win. That's a win right there.

That is, that really was. Like, John and I high five. My job here is done. We were like, all right. Because we, you know, all you can do is try. Like any parent listening to this or somebody who is like raising a child, a guardian to a child. Like, all you can do is try to teach them what you, you can just try. And you just hope that it's sinking in.

You just throw them out into the world. And you're like, I hope you're treating people nicely. I hope you're listening to what I said. And like we read a lot of books about it, which I think is very helpful. And I should share some of the books that we read because a lot of people have asked. And I, there's, we have a ton of really good books. with like the teach like kindness. I like love bedtime stories.

Yeah, because it's fun. And I think it's an easier way, especially at their age, they're five. I think it's an easier way of like getting the message across. Because it kind of puts it in like situations that they've been in or will find themselves in. They can like understand the concept a little better. But hearing that I will say it was like a very like John and I high five till we're like like that they listened. They listened. But like just, you know, like just be the person that sits with the kid that nobody's sitting with.

Yeah, just be like that. And it's cool. If you don't like something, just walk on by. Because like that can just be like, that can be like a metaphor. Like I'm not even saying if somebody's sitting alone and go sit with them like I'm saying that. But I'm also saying like if you feel like somebody's like getting the shit end of the stick, brighten their day a little bit.

It's also the fucking holidays. What is wrong with everybody? What the hell is wrong with everybody? But you know what? The moral of this story is lift other people up that you feel need to be lifted. Yeah. And leave other people that you alone. And just be nice.

Yeah, just be kind. I'm telling you, it feels a lot better. It does. Your gastrointestinal system will thank you because holding on to a lot of like hate and shit, that's bad for your gut. I mean, mine has never thanked me and I tend to think that I'm like a kind person, but who makes it much worse. Is that a probiotic you have over there for that? Sure, a probiotic of kindness.

Well, this is a probiotic of happiness because we had talked about Noah and Amber Claire in our last episode. Yes. And it turns out that they were found on Thursday. And what a weird little connection too. We'll get into it. So there were surveillance photos taken of them walking together in San Clemente on November 11th.

And they were wearing a large backpacks, Amber and Jake, and dark clothing. And it was clear that they had cut Noah's curls off. And it looked like Amber's hair was cut as well. It did kind of look like her hair was cut. I couldn't tell if maybe she had just had it in a hat or something. Yeah. To me, it looked cut at least. But on Thursday morning, a woman named Julie Bonnan spotted the three of them walking

near Doheny State Beach in Dana Point. She was driving her son to school. So she took a quick photo, got her son off to school, and called 911. And this was all around like 840. Hell yeah, Julie Bonnan. Like gets her kids to school and saves two children's lives. She does it all. I hope she put her feet up that night.

hope she did like you go girl i hope she lit a candle yeah took a bath yeah she put on some podcast i hope i hope she watched the real housewives and just zen heck yes she deserves it she did and she said quote you just have to trust your instinct and your gut to do these things because i almost didn't act on it i was driving my son to middle school and i saw the three individuals that i'd seen on social media there was a blurry picture of them put out and it was pretty much the same image she was holding the little boy's hand and he had a shovel in the other hand. Oh my God. And the dad was much taller and it struck me that he had a hat, sunglasses, and camo pants. It was strikingly similar to the image put out. But I think that's so important to you that she said, like, I almost didn't act. Absolutely.

Because how many times have you been in a situation where you've seen something and been like, oh, maybe that's not what it is? Exactly. Because you're like, I don't want to call and I don't want to look stupid if I'm calling. I don't want to make a big fuss and like get someone in trouble when they didn't do anything or like cause an uproar. But it's like, like, like, we're always say just overreact yeah exactly you know overreact like Julie reacted perfect she did and Noah and Amanda were reunited his mama Amanda and she said Amanda was like our bags were packed we were just waiting to hear what the next move was um and they were reunited she posted quote words cannot describe the feeling of him jumping into my arms and not wanting to let go I swear we

we sat and cried on the floor holding each other for 10 minutes Noah mommy loves you more than you will ever know it's me and you forever baby or excuse me it's you and me baby forever and ever. And there's a video of him running to her. Oh, like literally, like my voice is about to crack because I feel like I have this giant lump in my throat. I cried watching it and my whole body was just like, wum. Did that.

It did the warm. Because when we were talking about that on the episode the other day, I, in my head, I was like, all I want for that, for Amanda is to hug. See her baby again. That's all I want. Like, I felt it so, I can't, like, we stopped. recording I was thinking about it and I was like I swear I just like I'm trying so hard to just like put into the unit like please let her hug know and I feel like we did really put that into the universe

I hope we've helped manifest it the William Bonin episode and then a woman named Julie Bonin that's saw them like and in a tons of people were telling like tagging us and that being like whoa what you guys do that is weird that is weird and hey there's been a couple of weird things I'm telling you put stuff into the universe. Like sometimes it can manifest, you know? The universe is a powerful bet. It was at least weird. That was definitely a weird coincidence. It was. And a very happy coincidence that it turned out that way. Yeah, seriously.

And I'm just so happy. For Amber's family, for Noah's family, like, I'm so happy. Seriously. And Jake Clare is in custody. Hell yeah, he is. Another important note to the story. I'm sorry, yeah, that is an important. Kind of like the most part. Yeah, like he's not just walking around. Not just roaming the streets. No. But that's great. And that's very happy. That's a very happy thing that happened this week. Yeah, I think we should all. I guess that this is a bit of a

shit sandwich because, like, we talked about a sad thing in the beginning and the happy thing in the middle. And then now we're going to get into the case, which is obviously very, like, bummer-esque. Yeah. So, here we are. I hope you're hungry. Sorry, guys. Yeah. I am going to do the case. You may have heard of it of tall, hot blonde. You know, when you said this, case. I was like, why do I know that? You're like, what? I was like, why should I know, I know this? I think years ago, you and I watched the Lifetime movie directed by Courtney Cox. Pretty sure we did. Or like produced by Courtney Cox. Hell yeah, Courtney Cox. Huge. Like, love her. Love her. Like Gil Weathers. Yeah. Like, Gilweathers.

Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. But yes, this is also known as like the love triangle murder, the first catfish murder. So let's get into it. Intriging. Yeah. So, so we're, We're going to bring it all the way back to May of 2012. I was going to say 20.05 and then that felt dumb. You know what? 2005. Hey, it's the same. 20.05 is right.

It is. You're not wrong. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. No, what's wrong? But we're going back to 20.5 to New York State. 46-year-old Thomas Montgomery is doing what everybody in 2005 was doing. He's hanging out in chat rooms on the internet.

I was just going to say, heck yes, he was. Yeah, specifically on the site Pogo. I don't know if, like, everybody was on that. You could play, like, different games on there. He liked to play poker and Blackjack, but you could play, it was like an online arcade kind of. Oh, you know, I feel like, when you said it, I was like, why is that ringing some kind of bell? If you look at it, I think maybe you might have played a game or two on there before. I might have just, like, known what it was, because that does sound very familiar.

Yeah. It looked familiar to me. But, yeah, you could play all kinds of games on there, and you could chat with people from, like, all over the world while doing so. Oh, and it's still there. Oh yeah, look at that. So Thomas was having somewhat of a midlife crisis. He had two kids that were in their teens, so like obviously they needed him less and less. He and his wife were having marital issues.

So he was kind of using the internet as his escape. And while he was on in one of these chat rooms, a message popped up from a user with the screen name, tall hot blonde. I love that. Which like screen names were the best. I love screen names. If anybody messaged you from that screen name today, you would know that there's like a 99.99% chance that the person messaging you was not tall, hot, or blonde. No, of course. You were never

anything that was in your screen name. Never. Like, Summa, Girl 8 was mine. Mine was literally Bennington baby. Oh my God. For Chester Bennington. Because yes, I was obsessed with Chester Bennington. My first one was Fallout Girl, 1996. That's the best. I love that you went like full, like, like, emo with that one or like emo, you know, like pop punk. Like I think I like wanted. You wanted to like, You were like, fallout girl. And then you were just like, you know what? Summer girl it is. Full transformation.

No, I'm blossoming into the flower I am. That's what I found myself. See, and I was Bennington baby? Like what? I also had Ashley X-O-X-O-X-O-8. Yes, you did. You got to have the X-O-S. I had a lot of screen names, but none of them were tall hot blonde.

No, there's that. I stayed true to Chester Bennington with mine. You also had, you had Roxy Girl for a little. Oh my God. Yeah, Roxy Doll. Roxy doll. That's what it was. Remember Roxy?

Yeah. Oh, fuck. I thought I was cool. That was cool. I was cool. You were. You were. So it was like, I didn't think I was cool.

It was cool. I was cool. So Thomas was like so excited because tall hot blonde was like, hey there. Yeah. But he was also apprehensive. So he started chatting with THB under his own screen name, Marine Sniper. Wow. Yeah.

And she told him that her name was Jesse. She was from West Virginia. yeah and she was a senior in high school and Thomas was 46 um you should end that conversation right there oh gotta go bye and she said hey you're in the wrong like you're on the wrong chat room here like this one's for kids and he was like no i uh no he was like i'm not going to be honest about my age here he was like i'm going to have a little bit of innocent fun here in his mind not innocent fun at all i was going to you're like not but not from me he told jessey he told jessey that his name was Tommy and that he was also 18 and he was going to be heading off to Iraq soon

to fight in the war. Wow. Yes. He even sent her a picture to prove who he was. Little did she know this was a picture from almost 30 years ago. Yeah. The amount of times that this happened and still happened. And still died.

There's a whole fucking TV show. But the amount of time that this happened like in chat rooms. Like when they first came out, once one person figured out they could do that, it was like forget about it. It's like it was like a pandemic. Yeah, literally. But so yeah, she had no idea that she was talking to a married 46-year-old man with two teenage daughters. Dang.

A man who was a Sunday school teacher and who also sat on the swim board for his daughter's swim team. Damn. Like, just a regular day-to-day guy. Yeah, just hanging. And people who knew Thomas in real life said they never would have expected him to do something like this. All of his neighbors liked him. They said that he was one of the best neighbors in the neighborhood. And like the only hint of a complaint that people said about him was that he was a little bit awkward.

Which it's like, you know, like everybody's awkward. I'm awkward. Yeah, I was like, you know, I feel that. Yeah, I'm like awkwardly like waving up people. I feel like you never know people's online presence. You know, just like what they're into. Like who they want to be online. Yeah, because like every once in a while you hear somebody be like, yeah, they were like totally, everything was just whatever and nothing was awry.

And then they looked through their history on the internet. And they were like, oh. Oh, that's what was going on. And you're like, and that's the thing. Like, in his day-to-day life, Thomas was just a regular guy. And he actually had been in the Marines when he was younger. It was something that he had wanted to do ever since he was a little kid. He would, like, watch movies about it all the time.

And, like, he, that was, like, his identity. Yeah. But those days were over now. And by this point, like I said, it had been almost 30 years since he was a Marine. And he, at this point in his life was a recovering alcoholic. And he was also working as a machinist. at the dinabrade corp in Clarence, New York. Oh, okay.

So the job was something that he was, like, good at, but it wasn't something that he really loved. He said he stayed there because of the pay. Which is, that's so many people's stories, you know, like, that's what we've all done that. Everybody says that. And the thing about Thomas was that his daughters meant everything to him. Like, they were the reason why he got sober in the first place and why he stayed at the

job that he was at. He was like, I could have done something else, but I was making good money. and I needed to provide for my family. Well, that's good. Yeah. And I mentioned quickly before that he and his wife were having marital problems at this point. One of their big problems was their sex life. Okay.

So he, Thomas, as he put it, wasn't able to perform. Okay. So slowly and slowly, that kind of just stopped even being a part of their marriage. Yeah. And it's like, but you want to do this stuff online and stuff just like get divorced. Exactly. Like, why are you doing that to your wife? You can do this as much as you want.

Yeah. You can go off. Like whenever people cheat, I'm always like, just get divorced. That's the whole thing. Especially when there's no like abuse or anything and it's just like just cheating to cheat. It's like, just break up. Well, and it's like he was cheating for excitement because his life was lacking excitement. Like he literally said that.

That's exactly it. Because I think that's the problem because you're like, why did she just get divorced? Why don't she just like break up? Because that's not the fun of it. The fun of it is that they're doing something wrong. Exactly. And if they were single, they're not doing it. Well, he would still be doing something wrong because she's too young.

Yeah. But, like, you know, that like forbidden fruit kind of thing is. And that's like the perfect way to describe this. Like tall, hot blonde was his forbidden fruit. And he knew it too. But he was like, I was depressed and my life was lacking something. And I got that message from her. And it was like a shit storm.

It's like, dude, you're going to hurt people. Yeah. So they started sending photos back and forth. And things just got flirty and flurtier and flurtier as the conversations went on. Even like the first pictures that Jessie sent of herself were in a bathing suit. Damn. Yeah. So she said she was a softball player, so she also sent pictures over like that. She played basketball. So she was sending like all these pictures and very much like she was the same and everyone. So like it was definitely her. Or it was at least the same girl. Yes. And all the photos. Exactly. So the pictures started to get spicier as time went on. Like there was more revealing ones and you know, it was all kinds of crazy. And Thomas had his own photos to send. He was sending his old military photos like continuously. Because he was keeping up this facade that, like, he was war-bound. Yeah, he's 18.

He's in the military. He's headed to Iraq. So he would tell Jesse all about these crazy things he was going through because he was telling her he was at like boot camp. And then he was saying like he was getting ready to go on secret missions. He had like hinted at these like dark missions that he had been on that he couldn't tell her about. And like maybe some of those things were true.

I was going to say maybe he's drawing on some previous experience. Maybe. But 2020 was able to obtain documents. that showed that he actually never even trained as a sniper. And that was like his big thing. Like he was like, I mean, that's his screen name. That's literally his screen name. And he would talk all about that.

And they also said that he had never even seen action during the time that he served. I was going to say, while you, I was like, maybe this is open in my head. I'm like to me, when that's the case, I feel like it's, it's usually the other way that none of that happened. I feel like when you've actually been through that stuff, you're not like as willing to spin the narrative as hard as he is. He was adding a little bit of spice. Add a little bit of spice.

That's what he was doing. That's what he was doing. He said that he was six feet tall. He said he was totally built. I mean, you know, he like really wasn't. One of the things that, you know, was not. That was not really what he was. Jesse was like, do you have big shoulders?

Like, I love big shoulders. And he was like, my shoulders are fucking huge. I'm a house. Like, if you say to like a dude, do you have big shoulders? I love big shoulders. Of course, do you really think he's going to be like, yeah, my shoulders are huge. You know what? that's the one small thing about me.

Yeah, exactly. Like what? He also introduced Jesse to like other people in his life, sort of, because he pretended to be his father. Like he was pretending to be Tommy's father at one point. Wow. It's crazy. And it was because he told Jesse that he was in boot camp and he was like training.

So Jesse would talk to his father and ask the father to relay messages to Tommy. But the whole time she was really talking to Thomas Montgomery. Wow. Now, the real time. was getting nervous about the online affair, like Thomas Montgomery was getting nervous. So that's when he introduced this other persona of Tommy's dad to see if he could break things off. So he told Jesse he was like, you need to stop talking to my son. But then Tommy would get a chance to log on and Jesse would win him right back over.

So he would be like, I'm going to try and get away from this. Like I'm going to pretend to be my dad and be like, stay away from my son. But then he would go back online as Tommy and Jesse would say something. and he'd be like, oh, like, I have to continue this. Like, I don't love it. Oh, so he was, like, he was spinning his own, like, romance novel here. Literally. Like, he was literally creating drama. Yes.

Like, scripting it. Wow. It was wild. And so by that point, he and Jesse were, like, sending gifts back and forth. Like, they had each other's addresses. Oh, wow. They were talking on the phone while Tommy was off duty. They were having phone sex and they were having virtual sex through the chat rooms that they were in.

you know, just leave that to your imagination. Yeah, you can figure that one out. Yeah, and they had also even dropped the L word. So they were in deep. Lerve. They were in Lerve. And the real Thomas said that when things became sexual in the chat room, that's when he started to feel like very dirty about this whole thing.

But he said he was in it so deep that he couldn't stop himself. But I'm like, yeah, she's a high school senior. Yeah, and you can stop yourself. Yeah, you absolutely can. You have free will, sir. 100% stop yourself, but. But he said that he was like so invested, he thought this whole thing was real. And he said that the relationship had, quote, become more real to me than real life.

And later it would become very clear that he was so wrapped up in this online affair that he was basically losing his grip on reality. Oh, yeah. It happens all the time. Yeah. And this is wild this next part. Because on January 27th, or excuse me, January 2nd of that year, he wrote himself a note and said, quote, on January 2nd, 2006, Thomas Montgomery, 46 years old, ceases to exist and is replaced by an 18-year-old battle-scarred Marine. He has money in the bank, 2.5 million. He's handsome, like a red-headed

Harrison Ford. Then he went in to talk about his penis, and I'm not going to read about that. And he said, like, how he'd be able to, like, really perform this time. Wow. Yeah. And then he said, quote, he is moving to West Virginia to be with the love of his life. All right. So, like, I'm rather confused about how he was going to move to West Virginia and revert his age back 28 years, but like maybe he had some kind of wild plan. Yeah, who knows? I mean, maybe he's, yeah. Maybe he got in contact with Peter from Are You Afraid of the Snark this week.

Yeah, there you go. And was like, hey, can I borrow that machine? Can I borrow that real quick? Dial it back. Do you get some poly juice potion? And he's just like, let me turn me into this 18 year old stud muffin? Like, honey, I shrunk the kids. Yeah.

I don't know. Let's do this. I don't know what the plan was. All right. I mean, I don't think, in these situations, It seems to me that people usually don't have a plan and they just kind of are like rolling off the seat of their pants and they're like, well, we'll figure it out as it goes. Yeah, but like just he was like, I'm not Thomas Montgomery anymore. Like I am Tommy.

Like it was a wild shift. It's a big, like this is like a big show of like sadness. Absolutely. Like this is just like very. It's sad. It is. It is. All around.

Like this is just like, I'm sad for his. family. Then I feel bad for the 18 year old. That's sitting here thinking she's in Lerve. Yeah, exactly. And like getting groomed. Like very much getting groomed. You know, like that, I'm sad for everybody. Like, this is just sad. Fortunately, Thomas's imaginary plan was foiled because he was discovered by one of his daughters. Oh, no. Which you feel absolutely terrible for the daughters involved in this case. Yeah, that bums me out. She had borrowed his computer to do something one day. And while she was logged on, an instant message came up from tall hop blonde like I can't imagine how icky that must have felt

I feel so bad for her that's wow that's trauma yeah seriously so that's a trauma mama right there and immediately she went to her mom and like sit like literally Thomas's whole ass wife like and imagine like the the guilt on her of like having to go tell her mom that oh that's because you're sitting there's just like so many layers of that there is and then the poor wife sitting there's there having to hear from her daughter yeah who just found this like the layers of that because if like no matter what's going on that's like kind of embarrassing in a way oh for sure you'd feel like shameful and just like yeah because it I mean we're like human beings human beings feel shame for like weird shit that like even when it's like obviously it's not even weird nothing to do with it wasn't

her fault like I remember like just like putting this back I'm like let me bring it back to me no but I just think of like the shame thing like when I was going through like the bullying stuff in your high? Yeah, I was ashamed. Like, I was actually embarrassed, but why was I embarrassed? Like, when I think about it, I'm like, no, if anything bully, you should be embarrassed that they bullied you. But it's like, you do in those situations, like, people who are cheated on, they feel embarrassed. Like, they did something wrong. Absolutely. And it's like, it's a weird human thing that we do. Well, and then, like, to have your daughter bring that to your attention, like, you're supposed to shield her from all of this. And you're like, oh, fuck, like, what has happened here? That's the

other thing I was going to say is, like, I'm sure when, like, something happens, like, You know, you find out your husband's having an affair. Right. That's something you would want to deal with between you and your husband and never let the kids know. Exactly. You know, like you or deal or decide if they're going to know or when they're going to know or how you are going to relay that information. You need to be like in control.

You don't want them to find out in such a traumatizing way and then become part of the whole thing. Well, then without your, you doing it. Exactly. That sucks for, oh, I feel so bad for the mom and the daughters. I feel so bad for Cindy because it only gets worse at this point. So her daughter brings this to her attention. And then obviously she starts digging because she's like, what the fuck is going on in my house right here. Once you get that little nugget, you want to find everything out.

Oh, yeah. And she already like could kind of tell that something was going on with the computer. Like she'd be like, hey, get off the computer. And he'd be like, oh, like, I'm just like finishing this game. Or she'd be like, oh, just some buddies. Oh, yeah. You always know. It was in the back of her mind.

Of course. So she starts going through everything. She finds love letters. She finds physical gifts that included laundry. Ray, specifically a pair of red underwear that had been sent to her fucking house. She had seen, like, various chats between Thomas and Jesse. She saw a chain that was engraved. Like, Jesse had sent Thomas a chain that said Tommy and Jesse forever.

Oh, my God. She found all of the provocative photos at that point. And then she realized, oh, my God, he's sending. Like, so at this point, she just thinks, like, oh, great, he's cheating on me. Then she finds out that he's pretending. to be an 18-year-old because she's going through these messages and slowly it's becoming more clear. And then she sees the pictures that he's sending and saying like these are photos from right now when she knows like, no they're not. I'm living with you. Yeah. Like so fucked. And it's like,

were the daughters how old? Do you know? I don't know their ages. Were they like teenagers? It's they were teenagers. Okay. That's what I thought. But now it's not even a case of like, great, my husband's cheating on me and I have to deal with that. And not only that, but he's He's cheating on me with a child, with a teenager. Yeah, like maybe somebody the same age as our daughters. Literally. And then on top of that, it's not like, okay, we just are going to get divorced and work through this to get away from each other.

You have children who are, you are now bound for, I can't imagine having children with someone. No. And then finding out they cheat on you because that brings a whole other element into it. That now you're bound for life to that person. You are never going to escape that person. And it's like, that must be, I can't imagine that. You must just feel so tricked.

If anybody listening has gone through that, I am so sorry. My heart is literally exploding in my chest for you because I can't, I think, I just thought about that and I'm like, you must just feel duped. Like you're like, I stood in front of this man and we took vows together. That like, we would never do this to each other. Like it's one thing for your like boyfriend to cheat on you or something like that. Like even that sucks really fucking bad. But you're whole ass married and have whole last children.

And you've been married at this point, like over 20 years. And just knowing you're never going to escape that person. No, and how do you ever look at them the same? Like when your boyfriend cheats on you, you can like, buy you a little later, I never have to see you again or hear about you again. Like as long as you don't have kids together. Yeah, but if you don't, like your boyfriend who you don't have any children with. But it's like, once you have kids, you know. Yeah.

Which is why I think a lot of people choose to stick around and try to work through it because they're like, it's better than going through the kids. And what if there's custody things and like all that shit? Oh, I just like this family. I feel so bad. I know it's horrible. I just want to wrap you up and hug you. Well, and she's realizing that her husband is delusional. Like, he's living in a delusional fantasy world. Yeah, that's a scary thing to find out. And he had been chatting with this girl for months at this point. And then Cindy's like looking through all the timestamps of these messages. And she was able to see that a lot of the time spent

talking to Jesse, it would be like the whole night. Like he would stay awake the whole night until like five or six in the morning. While she's just sleeping. While she's sleeping. And then he would leave for work at seven. So he would stay up all night talking to this girl and then go to work. Like he was addicted. Yeah. Like addicted to this relationship. Wow. So she did collapse for fucking Cindy because she pulled a bad bitch move here. She wrote a letter to Jesse to tell her who the fuck Thomas really was. Oh, Cindy. So obviously she has her address because they've been sending things back and forth. So she enclosed a picture of like a family picture of her, Thomas and their daughters. Oh my God. I'll put I can post the family picture, but the daughters are blurred out.

Good. Yeah. To be brought into this. And she said, she goes, quote, Jesse, enclosed you will find a picture of my family. Let me introduce you to these people. The man in the center is Tom, my husband. There is no Tommy. He's taking advantage of you. You need to be much more cautious with your safety. You will only be hurt by a man who has mastered the art of manipulation and lies. Do not trust words on a computer. Cindy. Snaps for Cindy, too. for not being like you bitch you know what I mean like for being like you've been lied to you're being lied to he is grooming you he's taking advantage of you here not you you are a teenager and like be careful and to be like you need to be smart about your safety like Cindy like what a good ass person what the fuck if more people are like Cindy the world would be a better place seriously like she's not blaming this girl at all she's like exactly you need to be careful like I'm worried about you too she's literally saying like you've been groomed and duped by this man who is my husband who is my husband who is my husband

who I'm horrified by. Yeah. Wow, Cindy. Like, hell yeah. Bad bitch. Wow. I'm obsessed. That was like really impressive.

It was. It's very easy. Of course we all like want to get mad at the other woman immediately. Good for her. But I mean, she must have just put her mom pants on really quick and was like, this could be one of my children. And also it's like this isn't the other woman. This is a child.

This is a teenager. And my husband is like disgusting and derange. Exactly. It's like he's the disgusting monster. is a teenager that's being groomed. It's like, so I'm going to tell her you need to be safer. Exactly. Wow.

Yeah. Damn. Cindy. I'm obsessed. So then Jesse gets this letter in the mail and she's like, are you fucking kidding me? I feel so bad. I can't imagine how she felt.

She immediately. No. Imagine getting that photo in the mail. And like, I'm like, there's nothing wrong with balding, but like she thinks that she's talking to like an 18 year old. And then she gets a picture of like a middle aged balding. with children. She's looking for some flowing ginger locks that he promised her. She thought that he was a red-headed Harrison Ford. Yeah, is that what I said? I think so. Whatever. But either way. Yeah. And

she also is now learning that she's been having this weird relationship with a guy who has a whole family. Like she's probably feeling really gross. I mean, they've been having like phone sex. Yeah, she's probably like, I did not intend to be a mistress here. That's not like, that's so unfair. Exactly. So she texted Thomas immediately. She was like, I know. everything I hate you you should be in jail for what you've done like this is fucked good good for you Jesse yes so she was heartbroken and probably just I would assume in a bit of disbelief over this whole thing yeah so to be sure that like this because you know you're like wait a second like is this true like what the fuck or like did this is the woman mad like did she make this up

did she find a fake photo like I don't know yeah so she messaged a co-worker of tommies that she knew now his name was Brian Barrett Brian worked at the Dinah Braid Corp with Tommy as a part-time machinist. He was the oldest in his family. He was 22 years old and he was going to school to become a teacher. Basically anybody who knew Brian liked him. He had worked the whole summer that year coaching Little League. When he was finished with that, he helped his dad coach soccer on the weekends. He had also just bought himself like a new pickup truck. He's a really stand-up guy. Good for you, Brian. And he was like really proud of himself for buying the truck and meant a lot to him. He should be. And absolutely cars are expensive. Good job, Brian.

So he had met Jesse online through Thomas on the gaming websites. Like they would be in the same chat rooms like playing games together and stuff. And Thomas was kind of his friend from work. But like I said, like Brian was 22. And Thomas was 46. So it was kind of like one of those friendships. Yeah, that you're just like, oh, this guy from work. Yeah, exactly.

But Brian had been to dinner at Thomas's house before. So like they were like a little bit more than acquaintances, I would say. So it was news to him though that Thomas was dating an 18 year old girl. in the internet and a shock when he found out that Thomas was pretending to be an 18 year old. So he's like, uh. So he was like, yeah, Thomas is really a middle-aged man with a family. Let me try to make you feel better about this whole situation. Oh, man, Brian.

So he kind of stepped in like, Hassanova at the whole thing and was like, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Like, let's talk about it. Like, I'll be your friend. Yeah, like this sucks. So through talking to one another, they kind of realized that, I mean, they're closer to the same age. Brian is in fact 22.

Jesse is in fact 18. And they realized, like, maybe we were the ones who should have been together in the first place. Like, we have a lot in common, blah, blah, blah. So soon enough, their messages turned flirty. And Jesse was messaging Thomas that she had moved on to somebody bigger and better than him. I also am like, Jesse, though, like, you should take Cindy's advice. And don't trust words on a computer. Yeah, like, please.

Like, you're adorable. Find somebody in West Virginia. I'm very worried for you. IRL. Yeah. But apparently, Brian was talking about. his new relationship with Jesse at work and telling everybody what Thomas had done, which all of us would be doing that.

Right? And like, this guy over here. Yeah, I'd be careful of this guy. Yeah, exactly. So Thomas was obviously catching wind of this and he was pissed and getting like a lot of shit at work. And then the shit storm didn't stop when he was at home because he was able to see that Brian and Jesse were like going into other chat rooms and telling everybody on Pogo what

had happened and being like this guy's a friend. and being like this guy's a fucking super creep. This is so 2005. And they were basically being like he's a pedophile. Yeah. Which like technically he's not because she was 18, but like he's really fucking gross. Like he's a super creepy. Like totally wrong.

But because of all the drama and the fact that Thomas had lied about who he really was online, his account got suspended. So he's even more pissed. So I guess he was still able to message Jesse like on a separate. platform. Okay. And he asked her, he was like, why are you doing this to me? Like, I'm sorry. I will leave you alone. Like, just like, please stop doing this to me. Yeah. And the thing was that Jesse was playing both sides because on one hand, she would be in these chat rooms doing her best to out Thomas for like the creep that he was. But then on the other hand, she was still messaging him that she missed him and wanted to be with him. Now, for example, this exchange, tall hot blonde messages Marine sniper and

says, I ache to be with Tommy. Do you miss it, Tom? And he says, more than you will ever know, my heart aches to hear you call me your Tommy. I wish I could be that 19 year old Marine for you, which like, bleh. Wow. And she says, I know Tom. And this is just like, I hate everything about this. I hate everything about it. There was also another exchange where the two of them kind of like tried to put the whole thing behind them and move on as friends. Jesse told Thomas that Tommy should live on in his heart because he would always be a part of her heart. Okay. Yeah.

And then they reintroduce themselves to one another with Thomas saying, hi, I'm Tom. I'm 47 because he had just had a birthday. And I'm a former Marine. And then Jesse says, hi, I'm Jesse. I'm 18 years old. And I just graduated, like in all capital letters. All right. So like, we're going to be friends now.

There you go. Yay. Okay. But then all of the sudden one day, Jesse decided that she wanted to accept Thomas for who he really was. She told him that she missed him and she wanted to be with him again. So Thomas was like over the moon because he's all kinds of fucked up. He's still married at this point. Yeah, still married. And like Cindy's like trying to like make it work on this. Like make it work. Wow. Like amazing woman. Yeah, for real. And but he knows what he's doing is wrong. He's married like we just

said. And again, he's 47 and this girl is 18. Yeah, nothing about this situation has changed. Literally now he's not lying. Exactly. So they started their relationship. back up again. And they went right back to their old ways. Like, Cindy would beg him to get off of the computer and he'd say, when I'm done. And he said, it was like a drug. I was addicted to it. I couldn't just, just end it. No, you could. Like, no, that's actually exactly what you were supposed to do. 100% could. So Jesse and Tom said that this time, like, their relationship was different the second time around. But their computer histories both tell the same tale. It was just as, if not more sexual than it had been, like, the first time around. There's a documentary, actually, that I watched.

I'm going to plug it in the show notes. You can see a bunch of their exchanges with one another. The explicit ones are just, like, truly bizarre. Very uncomfortable. I'm not reading them here, but if you want to go find that, you can. And they just, like, dove right back into everything. Woof, until one day. Yeah, I knew something was coming here. Jesse said, I made a mistake. Uh-oh. And she said, I changed my mind about this whole thing. I really want to be with Brian. He's younger, we have more in common, and I only realized it when I let him go. What I'm doing here is wrong. I have to go back and be with Ryan. So she's playing both of them like a fucking fiddle. Everybody, I think it's time to sign off. Throw up your away message and put up an emo lyric and just

stay away from the computer for a little while, everybody. They go do things IRL. Yeah. BRB, AFC. What's AFC? Away from keyboard. Oh, obviously. I never said that. Obviously. BRB like really summed it up for us. BRB AFK away from keyboard. Like can't type back, sorry. That's hilarious. Yeah. We would just say BRB or BBL, which not meant something completely different. Yeah.

But BRB AFK was like the like when you-BFK. Burbafk. Yeah. Burbafk. So, yeah, Jesse broke things off for the second time and Thomas was not sad. He was. Piss. Inraged.

And most of his anchor was directed at the person he saw at work every day, Brian Barrett. So Brian was talking with his friends at work one day about how he and Jesse were making plans to meet up soon. IRL. Oh, no. So Thomas kept listening in on Brian's work conversations, like trying to hear all the details. So he was under the impression that Brian only wanted to meet Jesse so that he could have sex with her. And that was something that made him angrier because in her early conversations with Tommy, Jesse had said that she was a virgin. So they were making a very big deal about the fact that Tommy was the one who wanted to.

to take her virginity, which is just a really whole weird thing in and of itself. Yeah. Yeah. I have all kinds of thoughts on that. Yeah. But now Thomas, the way that he was looking at it is like, I've been talking to this girl. I'm in love with her. And then Brian steps in and he ruins everything.

And he's going to take her virginity. Like, he's pissed. So. So it's such a weird concept to me. Like we're all. I can't peer until we get fuked. It's stupid. No one's taken anything.

Yeah. Like I'm still the same person I was. Like they. But anyway. he would get home from work and he would sign in and start harassing Jesse. He would call her, I hate saying this word, a whore. He would say all kinds of terrible things to her. Um, trigger warning for this.

He said that the only time he ever wanted to see her again was if she was being gang raped. Oh! And he used a terrible word too about the people who he wanted to gang rape her. He used a slur, didn't he? A slur, yes. Yeah, because you, if you watch the documentary, just be warned that there are a couple of times where he types that slur and it's not like blocked out or anything. So just know that going into it. Because I did not expect it and it was very jarring. Because that was one thing that Ash mentioned

to me, I think it's like a trigger warning. She was like, by the way. I was like just so you know. like it really upset me. Yeah. I was I don't want to see that. Like wow. Because you're like reading the messages and then you're like oh God. No. It's just like, ah. And then there was this exchange. Marine sniper says talking about Brian. I hate him with a passion. A passion. And for 10 cents, I would eliminate him. Eliminate him. For a dime? For a dime.

And tall hot blonde says, that's a little drastic, isn't it? Marine sniper. Payback is a motherfucker, Jesse. I am the ultimate weapon. I am a Marine. And she goes, yeah, it's a lot. She goes, what are you going to do? And he goes, let's just say your piece of shit boyfriend came within a pussy hair of dying.

Ew. Which like, fucking disgusting. You're disgusting. He's so gross. the fuck and jesse says are you serious and he says yes and she says when and he goes the day after you two assholes told me you were fucking with me because like they would like message him and be like yeah you're stupid and she was like oh and he said had i pulled a little harder he would be gone brian will pay in blood all right thomas yeah so whatever like settle down tiny little aota

of grip that he was holding on to a reality uh was dwindling with every conversation that he had with Jesse. It's like Elsa with a balloon. She let it go. Yeah, for real. He just let it go. But um, there it goes. But Jesse was concerned for Brian and she was like, you need to be careful at work. And she specifically told him that she wanted him to make sure that Thomas stayed away from his truck. Like that was one thing that she had made like a big deal about saying. Okay. And Brian was like, yeah, I'm worried too. Like, do you think that I should tell like a boss at work that this is going on or like anybody? And he said, in recent days, Thomas had tried to hit him with his car in the parking lot.

Yeah, you should tell someone. You should definitely tell somebody. But unfortunately, Brian would not get the chance to report Thomas to anybody. On Friday, September 15th, at about 10 p.m., Brian was heading out of work, and he was walking through the parking lot to his truck. He was like one of the last people at work. He got into the car and immediately, seemingly out of nowhere, he was shot three times. Yeah.

And he didn't have plans that weekend because Thomas Montgomery did. know this, but Jesse had message Brian earlier and canceled the plans to meet up that weekend. Because this was the weekend that they were supposed to meet up. No. But then at the last second, Jesse didn't want to anymore. Hmm. Man. Yeah.

She said she wasn't ready to meet in person yet. So nobody in Brian's close circle knew that he was heading out to West Virginia to meet this girl. And they didn't think that he had, they like just didn't know what was going on for him that weekend. So he wasn't discovered until that Monday. morning. Yeah. Oh, poor Brian. People like started arriving at work and coming on to this scene. Everybody was showing up. And he got like brought into this. That's what sucks. And yeah, we'll get there. He was brought into this whole thing. Exactly. And he was brought in like being a really good guy, being like, what the fuck is this old man doing to you? Like you sweet, young innocent girl.

But it's terrible. So everybody's arriving at work. So that's when the police were called. Everybody except Thomas Montgomery. Huh. Yeah. Now when police. arrived on scene, 22-year-old Brian Barrett was dead. One of the shots went through his neck. Ooh, yeah. He was slumped over in his own truck that he had bought and was so proud of himself, just sitting in a pool of blood. That's so sad. And so they found shell casings at the scene, a peach pit. And they also noted that Brian's back rear tire had been slashed. So whoever had done this to him had intended to, and clearly they wanted to be sure that he had no way of even. I was just going to say so he couldn't drive away. Yeah, like in one of the documentaries that I walked,

one of them was like he was literally a sitting duck. Yeah. Like it's horrible way to describe it. But it's true. It's the truth. So the police start asking Brian's co-workers like, do you, does he have enemies? Like, why would this be happening? So all of them are like, yeah. He has one in particular. There's been something going on between him and this guy, Thomas Montgomery. It's kind of like a love triangle. We don't know all the details, but it's about this girl named Jesse. But at that point, Thomas Montgomery was nowhere to be found. And so when they learned that the second, the second, center of this love triangle was Jesse. They were really worried about her because they were like, he's nowhere to be found.

Is he on his way to go do something to her? So the search for her actually started out in a pretty unconventional way. They were trying to locate who she was and get a last name. And they were able to do so via MySpace. MySpace. Yeah, like one of the people who worked at like the front in the police station was like a younger person and they were on MySpace trying to like figure it out. And that's how they found her.

Wow. Yeah. This is the most 2005. I love it. Truly. It was one of the first times that they had ever found somebody in that manner.

That's great. So then they were able to get an address and they made their way out to West Virginia. Wow. Crazy. Like found out via my space. That's the thing like that's really wild. It is.

So when they got to Jessie's home an older woman answered the door and she said that her name was Mary Sheila and that her daughter was Jessie. So the police start explaining this whole situation that her daughter is involved in and they're like, a young man is just, been killed and like we're really concerned for your daughter. Do you have any way of getting into

contact with her? And Mary said, no, I don't. And they were like, you don't have a way of contacting your daughter? Like we're really worried for her safety. So they keep talking to her and they're just like getting this really weird vibe from her. And then all of the sudden she starts crying. Uh-oh. And she says, I need to admit something. Oh, no. Her daughter, Jesse, wasn't the one who sent the messages to either man. Oh, no. Or the picture. Oh, no. She had sent the gifts and talked on the phone with these men. Mary Sheeler.

She was the one behind all of these actions. Oh, my God. There was a Jessie. Her daughter, Jessie. She was using her daughter's photos to keep up the illusion that she was tall, hot blonde. And her daughter had no idea. Oh, my God. Like, I literally want to throw up.

Unreal. Thinking of using your child. Oh. And she was sending, like, Oh my God. She was sending pictures of Jesse in bathing suits, like pictures of her getting into her car. Oh my God. Upskirt photos of her fucking daughter.

What a fucking monster. Like the most disgusting thing I've heard in recent years. Oh my God. Like because I was saying earlier, like we watched this documentary together when it came out, but it was like years and years ago. Yeah. And I don't remember. I did not remember like the actual part of it. That was the, because I'm like, I feel like I remember.

There is a twist. I knew there was a twist. I just couldn't remember exactly what it was. But oh my God, that's so much worse than I thought it was. Yeah, I didn't remember either. And then I started diving into this. And I was like, oh, God, my brain actually, like, put that out of my head. Oh, my God.

Yeah, using her daughter's photos. So they were like, oh, my God. Okay. Can you fill out a police report for us? And she did. And she said that the real Thomas had called her. And she believed it was right after he had killed Brian. In the police report, she wrote that he called and said, quote, your boyfriend was very easy to take care of and ended the call by saying,

no 18-year-old is going to best me. Whoa. Yeah. That's terrifying. When they were finally able to track Thomas down, he was arrested for first-degree murder. Sure was. But he told them that he had nothing to do with this. He said the night that Brian was murdered, he was at home with his wife and daughters,

and that they would vouch for him. Cindy was like, you thought, bitch. I was just going to say, I hope Cindy was like, uh, no. No, she was like, I will not vouch for you and neither are all children, you piece of shit. That shows what an asshole he is. He's terrible. He thinks after all he's put them through that they're going to fucking lie for your ass. For your murdering ass.

Yeah. No. And he kept trying on the phone with his daughters, calling them from his jail cell being like, they're going to like keep me for a long time. Like, I'm not like, I'm not going to come home if you don't vouch for me. Again, a monster. Literally. These two are fucking monsters.

It was horrible. And listening to the conversation. Like, his daughter's like crying on the phone. Oh, fuck these people. I felt so bad. And I felt so bad. How is this many people like using their children in these ways? Seriously.

What is wrong with you guys? Fuck around with your own lives. Do whatever the fuck you want with your own lives. Don't bring your kids into it. Why are you all bringing kids into it? Like, fuck you guys. And like the way that Mary Scheler brought her daughter into this like, ugh. Well, that's, jeez.

But I. I respect. I respect Cindy and his daughter so much because they were not going. They were not willing to lie under oath. Good for them. But I feel so bad that I'm having to go through this shit. Oh yeah. Cindy filed for divorce while Thomas was in prison. Luckily. And Thomas didn't find out that the Jesse he had been talking to was actually a middle aged woman until he was brought into custody. So that whole time he was like, oh, like, I did this because like I want to win Jesse back. I'm my 18 year old girlfriend. And they were like, oh yeah. About that. They brought. They brought. So that whole time. He was like, oh, like, oh, like, I'm not. I'm not. They brought. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I brought out this picture of Mary Schiller, who does not look like Jesse. And they were like, hey, do you know this woman? And he was like, no. And they were like, oh, yeah, that's Jesse. And he was like, uh, what? Like, and they said, quote, the blood drained from his head and he turned the colors

of the walls, which was a pasty white. Like, what a, what a perfect little, like, taste of your own medicine? It's like, yeah, you're not the only person who lied about who you were on the internet. This lady did too. Oh, are you disappointed? Was it worth it? You disappointed? Yeah, how do you feel? For you? Big yikes. So while he was being held in jail before the trial, he actually tried to kill himself. He overdosed on sleeping pills that he had found in another inmate's cell, but that didn't work. And then he was placed on like a more intense watch so that that wouldn't happen. And he slowly started to realize that the case against him, like he was going to have no way of getting off of this. Yeah, how are you getting out of it, man? So he called his lawyer and him, he and his lawyer spoke. And he, they came to the decision.

together that it would be a much better idea if he pled guilty to the charges because you're going to get a better deal. Because you are guilty, sir. Yes. So he entered a guilty plea. But then at the last second, he fired his original lawyer, got another one, and tried to file a motion to revoke his guilty plea. Guy, you don't know when to quit. The motion was denied. Yeah, I was going to say. The judge was like, you thought, that's a no. He was like, I thought, like, he said, he was like, I entered the guilty plea when I, like, when I wanted to, so why can't I get out of it if I want to? And it's like, you don't understand this, do you? Do you not know how things work? And also, not only did the prosecution have like tens of thousands of instant messages between Thomas and Jesse, including the ones where he threatened to hurt Brian.

Yeah. And he had also threatened to hurt Jesse and her mother in these messages. But they also found his DNA on that peach pit at the site. There was a peach pit left at the site where Brian was killed. Stop it. And Thomas Montgomery's DNA was found on the peach pit. Oh my God. It's like Parks and Rec. Oh, my God, it is. The peach pit.

Yes. Holy shit. But that's not it, guys. That's not it. Because during the interviews with Thomas and Brian's coworkers, one of them said that Thomas had said if he was ever going to commit a murder, which like weird conversation, he would use an M1A1, excuse me, M1A1 gun, which is like an old military rifle. Okay.

So during the investigation, in a different. Thomas, they took a gun cabinet away from his home and they took it into their custody. And the gun that Brian was shot with was never found. But the FBI was able to do their thing. And then looking at old family photos, they realized the same gun cabinet that they had in their custody was in a picture, like an old family photo. And when they zoomed in, that gun was inside of it. So they were able to prove that he did have that gun at one point in time, most likely

used it for the murder. And ditched it. Holy shit. Yes, exactly. That's some real FBI shit. That is some real FBI shit. That is real FBI shit. And it was an old military rifle, 30 calibers to be exact, matched the shell casings found

on scene. Damn. Like, wipe your hands off. That's your fucking case, buddy. That's some FBI shit. Oh, hell yeah. So when it came time for his plea, Thomas explained to the judge that, yes, he did shoot Brian. He said he shot Brian three times.

with a 30 caliber rifle, we know, as he was getting into his truck. And the judge said, did you mean to kill Brian? And he said, no. But then his lawyer, like, elbowed him. And then he said, yes. I love that his lawyer is like, oh, come on. You're literally entering a guilty plea. You can't say no.

How do you not understand this? Come on. You shot him three times in the neck. And you didn't mean to? Like, you idiot. Okay. Oh, poor Brian. I know.

So Brian's father, his family, I feel so horrible. That's their oldest son. His father read a victim... And he did nothing wrong. He was the only one telling the fucking truth in this situation. The victim impact statement that his father read said, quote, my wife and I don't understand how this could happen to our family. We don't understand how such evil could exist in the world.

To gun down a boy over a simple, over simple jealousy does not make sense. No. And then when it came time to Thomas's sentence, they said, quote, we were hoping for more. But to be honest with you, we were prepared to take the 20 if we had to, the 20 years. Which obviously we did. We were glad to see that the judge didn't. prolong this any longer and give Montgomery more rights than my son ever got. Oh. So Thomas was sentenced

to 20 years in prison. He's appealed his case saying that he was pressured into pleading guilty by his lawyer, but his appeals have been denied. No. So like, fuck right off. And the prosecutors hoped that they would be able to charge Mary Shealer with something in this because she's a disgusting piece of shit for what she did. And she's a key part of this whole case. Brian would still be alive if she hadn't done what she did. Absolutely. But technically by law, she didn't do anything illegal. Yeah, catfishing is not like, unfortunately. And she...

Use your own child. Your own child. Damn, why is there not a law somewhere in here? There has to be. But she tried to make herself out to be a hero. And she said the reason why she talked to Thomas Montgomery for so long was because she didn't want him to go out in real life and talk to other teenagers. No.

I think we all know that that's a load of BS, Mary. Not only did you use your daughter's photos, without her permission. She also once used a camera to get a shot up her daughter's skirt, and authorities were able to find that she had sent the picture to multiple men asking, quote, guys, do you like it? No, she's literally disgusting. A disgusting monster. And the thing is, it's, like, I can't believe what she did to her daughter. And had it been one year earlier, she could have gone to prison for, like, child pornography. Yeah. Against her own child. Wow. Yeah. And, And Jesse, like the real Jesse had no idea about what her mom was doing.

And she didn't find out until her friends started hearing about this case and brought it to her attention. So she ran into her father one night and she was like, do you know about this? Like what? And at that point, he didn't even know. So he like found out with her. Oh my God. These poor families. It's so horrible.

And he said he was surprised, but it was also a running joke in Mary's family that she could get out of anything she wanted to if she just cried her way out of it. He was like, she's literally, like, been a liar her whole life. Wow. And it was just, like, she had never lied about anything this big. So he filed for divorce and the real Jesse cut off all contact with her mother. Good. Mary has never apologized to her daughter. That's wild.

Now, the only time that Mary has ever spoken about everything that happened was when she told BBC, it was stupid. It should have never happened. I just never thought it would go anywhere. It didn't happen. Far off, and that would be the end of it. No. First of all, it didn't happen.

It didn't just happen. I wish it didn't happen. No, you did it. Like, you created the situation. Don't be passive about it. Don't say it happened to you. You chose to victimize your own child for some weird sick thing that you were trying to do. Right.

Don't pretend it happened to you. And like, you were an active part of it. And to say it was stupid. It never should have happened. Like the murder of a 22-year-old man. Like boy. You had his whole life ahead of him? You want to be that passive and say it?

I'm sure his, yeah, I'm sure his family thinks that, that it happened. Yeah, it just happened. And it shouldn't have ever gone that far. Like, no, that's somebody's child. That's, that's people's friends. That's people's like, are you kidding me? Like, fuck you. She also wants to write a book about the dangers of the internet.

Like, honey, you're the dangers of the internet. Dear publishers in the world, don't do it. No one would. No one would, but I'm telling you, don't do it. But Brian's parents have a petition in the hopes that some kind of law could be made so that anyone who did what Mary Scheler did could be held criminally responsible. Unfortunately, as of this date, no such law has been made, but they're trying. Which is wild.

And the first deputy district attorney, John J. DeFranx, I just want to finish this with a quote that he made because it just really drives this whole case home. He said, quote, the uniqueness of this case is that everybody appeared to be misleading everybody else in the whole situation which resulted in a violent death was unnecessary. Ironically, the only person telling the truth here was the victim. Because I was going to say Brian was not misleading anyone. He was the only person who was doing, and he was doing like a nice thing. Like he was trying to be like console this girl.

And it's like this. And these innocent people, like Brian's this innocent person that was brought into it unwillingly and just tried to be a good guy. Yeah. And like Jesse, the real Jess. Yeah, the real Jesse. She was unwillingly put into this. Absolutely. Like, she's a victim in this. Like, I was searching the case while you were talking just to, like, see the pictures of people. They're all over the place.

And it's like, no. I'm not going to be posting any pictures of Jesse to our Instagram page. Her pictures shouldn't be part. Like, it's, and I understand. I know that it's like, it's part of the case. But it's not, that's not fair. She didn't ask to be a part of this. She didn't have those pictures out there. Her mother did. And it's like, her mother literally victimized her. Like, that's fucked. It's so fucked. And actually, um, Mary. son at the end of the documentary that I watched, which again, I'll link in the show notes, he said that his mom, like, as of that point, had been spending more time on the computer, and he was, like, growing concerned.

So she could still be out there doing this shit. And that's the thing, like, I don't know what kind of law could possibly be made about this. That's why the internet is a scary thing, man. I don't want my children on the internet ever. No. Like, I'm going to be like one of those crazy people that's like no internet in the house. No internet. Because it's like, mom, you're whole, like, you are the internet.

You are the internet. You are the internet. You're always on the internet, mom. But it's like, there's no policing it. And it's like really is a scary thing because people can say whatever they want. They can lie through their fucking teeth about anybody they want to and say it like it's fact. I mean, all of the, what was that show, how to catch a predator? Yeah.

That's what this whole thing is. It was so scary to see. And it's like, you really have to be, like, parents do have to be more like, I think we all have to learn a totally different parenting method now. Yeah, because there's so much more scary stuff that can become involved here. Absolutely. We all need to help each other. I think everybody just needs to help each other to protect your kids.

It's hard. But this case is so tragic. The fact that the one person involved in the three of them was telling the truth is the one that was murdered. So needlessly. Not that there's ever a need for murder. But it's like, and like he got 20 years for taking a 22-year-old's life. His parents literally said that not enough. Like they literally said the sentencing was an insult.

It is. Which it absolutely is. 20 years, that's not even the amount of time that Brian was alive on this earth. Right. And like, really? What about when he gets out of prison and he tries, like, what if he logs on those sites again? Exactly. And pretends to be an 18-year-old and does this to somebody else.

No, that's like really. Damn. It's scary. This was 2005. And it's like Catfish, the movie, came out in 2010. I know because I looked back for this. I know. Scenario where that mom was using her daughter's photos.

And it wasn't even her, well, she was using her, well, she was using her, like, younger daughter as like a pawn, but she was using some stranger's photos. Oh, yeah. It was this, like, girl who was like an artist and, like, you know, a musician or something. Yeah. And saying it was her daughter. Yeah. That whole.

Like, that whole thing was crazy. Because honestly, catfish to me, I remember watching that movie when it came out. It's so scary. When we lived in the apartment and like with a bunch of our friends and we all sat down to watch it. And we were at the end of it, I remember we were all just like, what the fuck did I just watch? Because we're like, holy shit. You're like, are they going to get murdered? Oh, I thought they were literally going to get murdered.

And honestly, it was as scary. It was. The way that whole thing ended. The whole entire thing. And this gave me so many of those vibes, but it was like before it, which is even scary. And it was like. worse. Yeah, because somebody died.

Like, this ended in death. Yeah. The internet is a scary place. This is a cautionary tale, my days. Very big cautionary tale. Like, remember, you don't know who is on the other side of that screen. Yeah. You don't know.

It may feel like you know, but you don't know. I'm going to, when my kids, like, if I do allow them to have the internet, I'm going to sit down and play them this episode. Yeah, for real. Like, just so you know. Just so you're aware. Yeah. Just want to put that out there. Be careful.

We're going to sit down and watch catfish. Yeah, we are. That'll show you. So yeah, guys. Man, that was a crazy tale. And I feel so hard for all these families involved. I feel so horrible for Brian's parents and his brothers. Yeah, I want Brian's family.

And I feel so bad for Thomas's daughters and Cindy. I hope Cindy and her daughters are thriving. Yeah, I hope they are just like, like, I hope you are killing it, seriously. Because you already were. And I hope Jesse's killing it, the real Jesse. I hope Jesse's killing it. Yeah. Get it, girl.

I hope like live your life. You're doing great. With your best life. Man. All of you live your best life. Yeah. And we hope that you keep listening. We hope you.

Keep it weird. But on the way that you log onto an online chat room and you're like, oh my God, I think I'll pretend to be my daughter today. That won't be weird or terrible in any way at all. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. And then this happens like, don't be that weird. Don't.