Morbid - Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Weirdos! Today we've got a special guest -Andrew McMahon of 'Something Corporate', 'Jack's Mannequin', and 'Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness'. In addition to heating about his journey as an artist, Alaina dives into some dark history and tells us about dancing plagues and other instances of hysteria.Want to check out Andrew's music, or purchase merch or tour tickets? Visit https://andrewmcmahon.com/Don't forget to check out the 'Dear Jack Foundation' which provides impactful programs benefiting adolescents and young adults diagnosed with cancer and their families. For more information visit the foundation's website at https://www.dearjackfoundation.org/ .  Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. It is still wildly morbid up in this bitch. We are close to wrapping up our Jack the Ripper series. But no cigar. But not today. There's going to be one final episode after this where we are only going to discuss theories and suspects. It just needs its own episode. There's so many. I would like to hear from people to see what their theories. are and what their favorite suspect is because I want to be able to touch upon like most of them and at least be able to expel some and like be like meh maybe this one makes sense yeah i'm excited to be like meh meh because i think that one's going to be like a little more like lucy-goosey of an

episode because we can just kind of like debate about what we think happened i'm going to shoot the shit we'll just shoot the shit about jack the ripper but for this episode episode four we're getting into the murder of mary jane kelly which was the final of the canonical five victims. It is arguably the worst one. It's real bad. That's really all the warning I can give you is like, wow. This is horrible.

If you've made it this far, I think you can handle it, but like it's going to be real bad. I don't, if you haven't Googled the photo and you have like a weak stomach, I don't recommend doing that. Most of you have probably seen the photo because I feel like it's one of those true crime photos that we've all seen, unfortunately. It's a very, very graphic photo. From what I read in a few sources back then, and I remember hearing this, that they used to think taking photos of murder victims, their retinas, like shortly after death, that it would, the image of what they saw last would be in their retina. Okay. That was the thing that they believed, and they believed

that, like, a certain type of photography could do it. Interesting. Yeah. And what's interesting, Yeah, right? Wouldn't that be just like, wow? Just take a pick. Just a silver platter to the police. Just here you go. But in this one, what's weird and we'll obviously talk about it in great details, only her eyes were left untouched. And I don't know if that was, I saw a couple of sources point that out and say,

do you think this was Jack the Ripper being like, give it a shot, guys? Like, you know what I mean? Just leaving those totally untouched and being like, take a look at those retinas, see if you can catch me. Yeah. I wonder if it was. somebody that did not believe that himself and was like, here you go, morons. That's the thing. I feel like it must have been.

And then I had another, because people were getting into some of these books and like getting excited to dive into the case. So I want to give more recommendations. I'm going to be adding books into the recommendation list. And also, you should go listen to if you want like even more deep dive into this. Get like different perspectives, get some more historical basis for everything and some real look into like the police and everything. I touch upon it, but I'm not going like hard into the police.

Go listen to Unobscured Season 3. It's Aaron Manky's podcast. And they covered Jack the Ripper for that entire season. It's phenomenal. I mean, it's Aaron Manky does amazing podcasts. That's just the way it is. Aaron Manky, friend of the pod. But I just wanted to tell you guys to go listen to it because it's really good.

He also did. The season one was on the Salem Witch Trials and that was a great one too. Just go listen to everything that Aaron Minky does. I'm like, just go listen to Aaron Manky. Yay. But honestly, it's a really good like, after you're done with this, if you are still like just itching to be in Whitechapel for longer ago. Which would be interesting of you.

But what I'm going to do after this is I'm going to watch Peky Blinders. So I'm not going to leave Whitechapel either. Well, I'm going to leave Whitechapel for Birmingham. But that's just me. There you go. You know, here we are. So do you know where I was last night? Where were you?

West Egg. West Egg, you were watching the Great Gatsby. I was. Look at you. Oh, such a good movie. I had a good cry. Good book, good movie, good tattoo, you know. Good on, good, good on you.

It's good all around. Good green light. Yeah, good green light. There you go. So let's get into part four. It's funny because throughout this research, my opinions are shifting as I research. I went in here thinking one thing and started it one thing and then it's slowly evolved into something else, which is kind of fun.

That is cool. And when it comes to the letters, my opinions have shifted, even from the last episode. Oh, shit, really? So there's that. So we're going to get into this. So first, when we last talked, we mentioned the letters. We mentioned the Dear Boss letter. We mentioned the postcard that came after that.

This is where he named himself Jack the Ripper. This is where he said, don't mind me giving the trade name. It was a very goofy letter. It always bothered me how goofy. it was, but I was like, well, you know, he's a dick, so I suppose that makes sense. And he's like trying to be theatrical. Yeah. And then we said that there was also the very infamous from hell letter. And this letter was not received by the central news agency like the other ones, which will get into how weird that is too. This was sent to the head of the Whitechapel

Vigilance Committee, George Lusk. And this one contained part of a kidney. Which we thought was weird. you still feel that way. Still feel like that's weird. Okay, cool. So let me get into, because you're probably like the head of the White Chapel Vigilance Committee, like what is that?

Right? You're probably like, what fuck is that? Yep. Absolutely. I feel like I have a feeling, but for those who don't, let's go. So George Lusk was the head of the White Chapel Vigilance Committee.

And what it was, it was also called the Mile End Vigilance Committee, and it was formed earlier in the month, September 10th, 1888. It was put together by 16, men from local businesses. George Lusk was a builder, like a local builder. They were all like

butchers, you know, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. They were everything. He was a builder. He was the head of the whole thing. It was put together because they just didn't think the Metropolitan Police Force could handle this shit. Sounds like they were on to something.

Yeah, and they just didn't believe they were going to be protected. They didn't think it was really going well in there. They weren't. They weren't. So they got together and decided they were going to take matters into their own hands on a local level they were going to protect their community they were going to investigate things sounds great on like a surface level you're like good for you but then when you think about it you're like oh that never works out i feel i was going to say had that had that go and we all know how that goed there were also a ton of these vigilance committees it wasn't just

this one this is the one you know that is well known mainly because of the area it was in and because of the head of this one got a fucking kidney sent to him. I think that's really what put it on the map. That'll do it. But these vigilance committees would patrol the streets. They would step into crimes if needed. They would kind of just offer kind of like a deterrence to people because they were like big guy, big builder men and butcher's and all that. So they're just like, I'll fuck you up.

I'm carrying a giant knife. Like I'm covered in blood. So what's up? And I'm literally always covered in blood. So what are you going to do about it? Right. So it kind of worked out a little bit. But the Star newspaper basically did a call to action to tell locals to rise up.

Like the newspapers were like, hey, the police suck. You guys should probably do something. The newspapers were like, let's go girls. Let's go girls. So the Star on Saturday, September 8th, 1888, this was right before the White Chapel Vigilance Committee was put together. They said in the Star, now there is only one thing to be done at this moment. and we can talk of larger reforms when we do away with the centralized, non-efficient military system,

which Sir Charles Warren has brought to perfection. The people of the East End must become their own police. They must form themselves at once vigilance committees. There should be a central committee which should map out the neighborhoods into districts and appoint the smaller committees. These again should at once devote themselves to volunteer patrol work at night, as well as as general detective service. Which I'm like, don't make them be detectives.

Yeah. The unfortunates who are the objects of this man-monster's malignity should be shadowed by one or two of the amateur patrols. They should be cautioned to walk in couples. Whistles and a signaling system should be provided and means of summoning a rescue force should be at hand. We are not sure that every London district that should not make some effort of the kind,

for the murderer may choose a fresh quarter now that Whitechapel is being made too hot to hold him. I love that too hot to hold Jack. We do not think that the police will put any obstacle in the way of this volunteer assistance. Hilar. They will probably be only too glad to have their efforts supplemented by the spontaneous action of the inhabitants. Yeah, definitely. Not so much.

But in any case, London must rouse itself. No woman is safe while this ghoul is abroad. Up citizens then and do your own police work. I love it. Something that you probably wouldn't read in the newspaper today. Probably not. Well, maybe now. But I was going to say maybe, actually.

Times have changed. But you know what? I do love that I love the idea of like Whitechapel changing. It's like welcome to Whitechapel sign to say like Whitechapel. Too hot to hold Jack. Like that feels like it's saucy. You can hold that as a really good like that's your town slogan. Too hot to hold Jack.

Yeah. I kind of like it. Who wrote that? Like who were you? Somebody wrote that. These I will say these journalists, man. Back then, they were something. They were something.

They were just so like, I don't even, I don't even know the word to describe them, but they were just so sparkly. They were sparkly. They were very flowery with their pros. They were very opportunistic at times. We'll get into that. So it got- Does that lead you into your next thought?

Well, it got so bad that people in Whitechapel started calling for the resignation of Home Secretary Henry Matthews, who like runs the whole force. and or Sir Charles Warren. They were like, we want one of you to resign. That I get. Summer is so hot. It's so disgusting and I just, well, I used to feel dehydrated all the time, but now I don't because of liquid IV. You know, the hot summer months are here.

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So of course, Home Secretary Matthews was quoted as saying, quote, The failure of the police so far to detect the perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders is not due to any defect in the organization of the existing system of police, but to the extraordinary cunning in secrecy that characterizes those atrocious crimes. So he's like, it's not our fault fuckers. It's that this guy is too fucking smart. And it's like you, that's what you want to go with. And also like that's going to settle the public.

That's the thing. It's like you, first of all, that's really where you want to take this. Like that's okay. That we're not, it's not that we're dumb. He's just much smarter. Like that's the line you guys want to put on your log line here. That makes me feel happy and safe. And it's like you think that the, exactly.

Everyone in Whitechapel is going to be like, oh, good. We were worried. We were worried it was just that you were dumb, but the fact is he's just supernatural and, like, way smarter than everybody. All right. Okay, we're fine then. Don't even worry about it. Just stop looking. Look, don't worry about it. Jesus. He's going to keep killing. It's fine. He's too smart. Oybe. So October 16th, 1888, George Lusk receives a wild package in the mail. He got a square cardboard box that was about three inches in, like, diameter.

And when he opened this peculiar package, he found a little. letter it was postmarked from hell and half of a human fucking kidney was inside oh a half only part of it oh no i knew part i didn't know it was as much as a half oh yeah half of a kidney i thought he sent maybe like a little tidbit of the kidney oh no he gave a pretty good chunk of it oh can you imagine no no no the organ was preserved in alcohol they believe it was like wine um and was very real and it was very human because dr thomas open who was the pathological curator of the London Hospital Museum, examined the kidney and said it was indeed a human kidney, and you can tell, and it was the right kidney.

Now, if you remember, Catherine Edos lost her right kidney. I do remember. I do recall. Now, if you Google this whole thing, you will get a whole hell of a lot of sources saying that Dr. Openshaw also stated, it was from a 45-year-old woman with Bright's disease and that the kidney was Ginny,

meaning from somebody who drank heavily and it had been removed within the previous three weeks which fits exactly in the time frame of Catherine Edos' murder and the kidney removal which like wow that's so neat and tidy isn't it? Yeah. That it's like he could just tell every single little piece of information that fits

Catherine Edos. It's almost too neat and tidy. Almost too but a lot of sources claim that Dr. Openshaw was like no I didn't say any of that. Yeah. And he said I said That's a kidney. And I will be quoted as saying that is a human kidney. I can confirm that. And that it was taken from the right side of the body.

Hopefully I'm on the right side. Whatever side Catherine Edos was taken from, it was taken from the same side. So he's like, I can't confirm that. Okay. But he was like, other than that, I don't really know. He did say that when compared to Catherine Edos's remaining kidney, it was similar. Okay. In the way that it appeared.

which to me would mean it was like a little pale right like miscolored little shriveled little funky looking so that's the thing it's not like she just has any regular old kidneys exactly so to compare these is a pretty big deal exactly saying that there's some kind of like similarity correlation between the two looking just physically is something yeah that's something to hold on to now i've also seen some sources say that they're like well that he definitely didn't say it was a jinny kidney because kidneys aren't affected by alcohol. I saw like a lot of sources say that. Of course they are. Your pee goes through there. And I was like, what now? Kidneys can get real fucked from alcohol. Heavy long-term alcohol abuse will start to cause your kidneys to become super overworked

because your liver is being abused. And chronic kidney disease can be a result. Yeah. So a jinnie kidney is a thing, I suppose. It would look shriveled and discolored. A healthy kidney looks nice and smooth and just somehow like, right. It's also like alcohol can do a lot to like all the organs in your body. Well, that's the thing. It's like a ripple effect. You drop a pebble in a pond. It ripples out to everything. That's what it does in your body. Everything's connected. So the thing that is really interesting is that it's reported that the half of the kidney

that was in the box sent to Lusk had a small portion of the renal artery still attached to it. Catherine Edo's, and they said that it was about an inch. Catherine Edoz's kidney was removed from her, from, I believe it was the left side. I think I got it wrong. When I said right, I apologize. Well, fuck you. And there was a long portion of the renal artery still attached to her body. So she had about two inches of the renal artery still attached without the kidney.

This kidney came with about one inch, which would line up with that two inches to kind of form the right size of that renal artery. Okay. So that is pretty interesting. Yeah. Well, and like, where does some random Joe just get a fucking kidney? Thank you. And that's, so this would match. And I don't think if this was a hoax, that's a very big detail to, like a small detail to put into this hoax that I don't think somebody would think of.

No. Now, a man named Dr. Henry Sutton was the kidney disease god, apparently, and the London hospital pathologist back in the day. And I found him actually cited in a medical paper called the Entomology of Nephritis, a historical appraisal of its origin. And it was from 2020, actually, which is really interesting. he was brought he was brought this kidney by major smith from the police force and after examining it he said he would stake his reputation on the fact that this human kidney was placed into the wine preserve it was sent in within hours of being removed from the body damn this would mean because what they were saying was everybody's like well who the fuck would have a human kidney medical students yeah cadaver kidneys you could take out a cadaver kidney and send it to someone and nobody would give shit especially back that and who the fuck's going to catch you yeah They can't catch Jack the Ripper. They're not going to catch you. The recipient might give a shit.

I mean, they would definitely give a shit. That's for sure. Tushay. But this took that away, that possibility away, because he's saying it was placed in that preserve within hours of being removed. Well, back then, bodies in the morgue were not taken into coroner's inquests and dissected for one or two days after the death occurred. It wasn't a rapid autopsy situation like can happen now.

So there's no way that a frozen. or a cadaver that have been sitting, I shouldn't even say frozen, for like one or two days, they took the kidney out where like, this will be funny. Yeah. It just doesn't line up.

Yeah. That was a much fresher kidney. No, I fully believe that that was her kidney. Now, what the letter said was this. It said, from hell. Mr. Lusk, I send you half the kidney I took from one woman and preserved it for you to the,

and then it says like touther. It's a very hard to read, It's like, but I think what they meant was the other piece I fried and ate. It was very nice. I may send you the bloody knife that took it out if you only wait a while longer. Signed, catch me when you can, Mr. Lusk. There was no Jack the Ripper. There was no saucy Jack here.

There was no Jack at all. So does that then lead you to believe that the dear boss letter is the fake? Thank you. He had not signed this at all. He didn't sign it with any moniker. He didn't come up with some silly ass name. for himself. He didn't B.TK it. Could it be because he was not really psyched about that moniker being put on him already. Like he was like, um, like, no, didn't like that wasn't me. And I didn't do

that. And I'm not going to fall into that. So October 29th, another letter was sent to Dr. Openshaw, the one who was given this kidney and said, this is a human kidney. It was sent to him. And this one said, old boss, which goes right back. Old boss, you was right. You was right. It was the left kidney. I was going to operate again close to your hospital, just as I was going to draw my knife along of her blooming throat. Them cusses of coppers spoilt the game. But I guess it will be on the job soon,

and I will send you another bit of innards, Jack the Ripper. Oh, have you seen the devil with this microscope and scalpel looking at a kidney with a slide cocked up? Hmm. So here's what I'm going to, here I go. Are you ready? Because I did this to John last night and he was like, save me. He told me that this morning.

He was like, please save it for the podcast. I don't know what to say. He literally said that. Here is my opinion now. All the letters besides the from hell letter are bullshit. I think they were all three written by newspaper people to sell those newspapers. And here is why. Okay.

Number one. The Jack the Ripper moniker made up in the Dear Boss letter, used in the old boss letter in the saucy Jack postcard, and then abandoned in the Mr. Lusk letter. the use of game and job interchangeably in all three of those letters but not in the miscarluss letter in all three he refers to what he's doing is doing as both his job and a little game he refers to it as a game saying copper spoilt the game and then immediately in the same letter says he will be he will be on the job in the dear boss letter he calls it his grand work and then he says these murders are his funny little games in the postcard he's saying saucy Jack's work, which is conflicting tones and ideas like saucy Jack, my work.

Like very, it doesn't make sense. This is just my opinion, having spent some time in this world through research and reading a lot of different things about it. But I think the real Ripper thinks of this or thought of this as one thing. And I don't think he thought of it as a game. I don't think, and I don't think he's confused or conflicted about how he sees it. I don't think that he was not sure whether this was his work or his game. He had one opinion, and I don't think he took this as a game.

No. It just doesn't, it doesn't ring true to me. And I don't think that he would also, I don't even think he would see it as a job. I think he sees it as a mission or a message or a punishment. There's something, some end game he has here. This is not like, oh, this is just my job to do this. No, I don't think that. And like I said, it's not funny to him.

It's not a game to him. I really don't see that. But the Lesk letters refer to it as neither. Right. It is not his work. It is not his game. He just talks about the woman. This is what I did.

Right. And I think that's more the what I see in these crime scenes. That makes sense to me. That's somebody that's like, fuck you guys, this isn't a game. This isn't my job. I have a message to send or I have a punishment to dole out. And the from hell letter, while it is theatrical, it is not nearly as theatrical as the other two letters. Like the tone is entirely different.

Well, actually, I would beg to differ. Really? The tones are all very jovial and over the top, all three of those. And they all have similar misspellings. They all have similar like ha-haz in them and saucy Jack. And they're all signed Jack the Ripper. They all, to me, seem like they were written from the same perspective. No, no, no.

I'm maybe I referenced the wrong one. I'm saying the one that came with the kidney is less jovial. That's the friend from hell. Yeah. So you're saying they all three. All things. So there's four letters. Four letters. There's the dear boss letter. There's the postcard. Both came to the central news agency. And then there's another one that came after the from hell letter to Dr. Openshaw. All three of those are jovial as fuck. They're joky. They're ridiculous. They all referenced Jack.

The from hell letter has not one hint of joke to it. That's what I was saying. Yeah. That's the from hell letter. Yeah. So, and also, so that's, so there's the job in the, in the game thing that is ringing true in all three of those other ones, but nowhere in the Frum Hell one. Then where it was sent. So the Dear Boss letter and the postcard was sent to, so it was sent to the central news agency. The From Hell letter was sent to the head of the White Chapel Vigilance Committee, which had formed again because of distrust of police in the, their ability to keep Whitechapel safe from this monster. Doesn't it make sense that he would seek out this guy to send it to rather than a newspaper man, a doctor or a cop? It would make more sense to send it to this guy because this guy is the one that's like out there

in the in the trenches here pretending to be like the head of the detective force at this point. So I would think this would be like, hey, like civilian pretending to be a cop, here you go. Right. Like you think you can handle this? Exactly. And number four, the coagulated blood in the ginger bottle from the dear boss letter. So I will go back to the dear boss letter to give you this just because I'm sure I wouldn't remember either. In the dear boss letter, he says, once he talks about his funny little games, he says, I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with. But it went thick like glue and I can't use it. Red ink is fit enough, I hope. Ha ha. So what he's talking about there, obviously, is coagulated blood in a ginger beer bottle. And what he's saying is that he's kept that from the last job he did, like a while ago. And that, oh, no, I can't write with it now because it went coagulated like jelly.

This is a medically minded person. It's very clear. Yes. The real killer would not be shocked that blood collected in a ginger bottle would coagulate in the bottle by the time they sat down to write that stupid letter. It would be jelly in minutes. And the real killer would have known that, I guess. I don't think he would have been like, oh, so weird. His fake surprise and the switch to red ink to like mimic blood is so over the top and stupid.

And honestly, it's something that a reporter would do to be like, does anyone have a red fucking ink that I can write this with to make it look like blood? Yeah, I could see that. Like, it makes sense. Well, and the biggest thing is like exactly what you said. He would know that blood coagulates. Of course. He wouldn't be like so weird. It went thick like glue.

Yeah. You would know that. So then number five, the tone. like we were talking about all three of the others are jovial silly over the top they are too much the from hell letter is dark ominous and to the fucking point exactly it also contained actual physical evidence i think he sent that to scare and terrify i think he liked the fear he was spreading and it wasn't meant to be a funny thing he wasn't sitting here going hardy har har har saucy jack like that's not what he was doing right he was like i want to fuck everyone's world up. I'm going to scare the shit out of everyone. And here's a fucking kidney. Yeah. The other ones are like, so silly, aren't I? Burr, burp burr. It's like that just doesn't make any sense. And even the letter itself is blank and dead sounding. Even just what he wrote is dead. It's dead words. He just tells him what's in the package. Here's half a kidney. He says he may send the weapon he used to

remove it. He's like, maybe. He does a little taunt, a little haunt. hint of a taunt at the end. Which makes sense because like why send the letter but to taunt. But it's more of a you can't stop me. Right. And less of a this is fun, hardy hare kind of vibe. It's literally at the end like you won't stop me. That's it. Yeah. And that is why that just rings true to me. The from hell one is real to me. The other ones. Not so much. It's atrocious and real. Yeah. I buy what you're saying. It just makes sense. When you really look at them and I will try to like post some of the pick of them for this episode. But when you even just looking at them and reading through them, you will see a marked tone difference between those three and that one. Yeah.

It's completely different. And the other three just makes sense that they would be written by someone who thinks that they're doing a serial killer impression, I suppose. And it's like, no, that's like a caricature of what this is. I agree. So, yeah. So that's just how I feel about that. And also Robert Anderson, our jet setter off in Switzerland and then Paris and then home.

He wrote memoirs later that were called the lighter side of my official life. Oh, okay. And in it he needed a lighter side of his official life, poor thing. And in it, he wrote, quote, So I will only add here that the Jack the Ripper letter, which is preserved in the police museum at New Scotland Yard, and that is like the Dear Boss letter, is the creation of an enterprising journalist.

Wow. his successor had the same thought. Sir Melville McNoughton took over as head of the CID in 1903, and he said, it was definitely a journalist. He said, quote, in this ghastly production, I have always thought I could discern the stained forefinger of a journalist. Indeed, a year later, I had shrewd suspicions to the actual author.

But whoever did pen the gruesome stuff, it is certain to my mind that it was not the mad miscreant who had committed the murders. And they're not talking about the from hell letter. Now, the dear boss letter feels real on first glance because, like I said it, last time I was like, you know what, this one feels real to me? Yeah. Because of the ear thing. And it's because he says I'm going to clip the next one's ear off and then he did. Yeah.

Now, it was turned into police on September 29th, which was hours before the double event and the murder of Catherine Edos who had her ear clipped off. But the central news agency claimed they received the letter on September 27th and waited until. the day of the murders to turn it into police, which is weird. Is something a mishear with dates, possibly? And another thing, George Sims, who was a journalist at the time and who wrote a weekly Sunday column, he was like heavily into this investigation and he was very suspicious of all these letters. He brought up the notion that the Dear Boss letter and postcard were sent to a news agency

and not to a specific newspaper or to the cops. a news agency, because of the central news agency, what it did was it sold, it sold to people. It sold papers. It sold papers or stories, excuse me. It sold stories to other papers and news outlets. They were not a paper themselves. They sold the stories out, which makes even more sense because then they're going to make more money. It is a hub that can spread the story or news items to various sources. Wouldn't someone just send this letter directly to, the papers, or better yet, the actual investigators? Right. Why would they choose a news agency?

So George Sim actually wrote, quote, The fact that the self-postcard proclaimed assassin sent this imitation blood-besmeared communication to the central news people opens up a wide field for theory. How many among you, my dear readers, would have hit upon the idea of the central news as a receptacle for your confidence? You might have sent your joke to the telegraph,

the Times, any morning or even, paper, but I will lay long odds that it would never have occurred to communicate with a press agency. Curious, is it not that this maniac takes his communication to an agency which serves the entire press? It is an idea which might occur to a pressman, perhaps, and even then it would probably only occur to someone connected with the editorial department of a newspaper, someone who knew what the central news was, and the place it filled in the business of news supply. This proceeding on Jack's part betrays an inner knowledge of the newspaper worlds

which is certainly surprising everything therefore points to the fact that the jocist is professionally connected with the press and if he is telling the truth and not fooling us then we are brought face to face with the fact that the Whitechapel murders have been committed by a practical journalist perhaps a real live editor which is absurd and at that I think I will leave it

he's like and drop the mic So he's basically like, especially at that time, no one knew what the central news was. I was going to ask that. People wouldn't know that. No layman is going to know that that's what that does unless you're in the press business. And then you know that it can get out to everybody. Now, the postcard was talking like it was sent before the double event. Like it was saying like, or yeah, I was saying that it was sent right before the double event, but it was actually postmarked 24 hours after.

So it seems like whoever tried it, they tried to make that look like. it was sent before, but it was actually not. It didn't work out for them. They fucked with those dates and it didn't work. So then in 1993, a letter was discovered by a man named Stuart Evans. This letter is called the Little Child letter because it was written by Chief Inspector John George Littlechild, who was the head of the secret department of Scotland Yard. And it was written to George R. Sims, who was an author and journalist himself.

In this letter, he says that he is sure Tom Bulling. who was the one who received the original Dear Boss letter at the Central News. He was the creator of the original letters. Bullying was the man that received it but then passed it along to police. So he says in that little child letter, the investigator says he's absolutely sure that Tom Bowling did it. Okay. So, I mean, that could be him just being like, yeah, I know it. But it's still interesting.

Yeah. Now, by this point, the murders had followed some kind of time pattern, which people just realized at this. point. The first one was August 31st. The next one was September 8th. The next one was September 30th. The next one would have been August or October 8th. If it was going like 830, 830, 830. Right. So October 8th comes around. Everybody's waiting. Nothing. October 30th comes around. Nothing. So they're like, did they stop? And a month was, so a whole month went by, nothing related to the Ripper. Women are starting to feel safer in the sense that it seems like maybe he was a arrested or gone or who knows. Which is the perfect time for him in his opinion. Unfortunately this meant that people took their walls

down, didn't stay as vigilant as they would have, and then November 9th, which is right around the 8, 9, 30, 31 kind of pattern he's going in. November 9th, his final victim was found, lying completely hacked to death on her own bed in the room 13 Miller's Court

off Dorset Street in Spittlefields. The scene of her murder is one that will definitely always go down as the worst in most gruesome history. Absolutely. Now, interestingly, and probably purposefully, in my opinion, this was also happened to be Lord Mayor's Day in London, which involved celebrating the new Lord Mayor. And it is an annual event that still happens. This would mean that there would be tons of police at the event. And the rest of the city would be pretty much on their own. This was such a prime moment for him to do his worst, most intricate, and most time-consuming murder yet. It was distraction that was perfectly built in. And it probably is why he didn't do any in

October. He probably waited that month because he didn't want to risk being caught before he could use this specific distraction to complete his magnumopus. He didn't want to get caught in October and not be able to do this thing that I think he had planned all along. Okay. So this woman that they found was Mary Jane Kelly. She was known later as Ginger, Fair Emma, Dark Mary, Black Mary, and Mary Jeanette. Oh, I like the last one. Yeah.

So she was only 25 years old when she was murdered. She was very young, much younger than the previous victims. A lot of her history, unfortunately, is very sparse. It's questionable. She told a lot of tales. So we're not really sure. We hear a lot of it from like men she was, and like women who ran like brothels that she was living and so we're hearing like bits and pieces of it.

So I'll pass on what I found in most sources and what people think maybe at least most of the truest portions of her life. Now she was born in Limerick in Ireland around 1863. She had at least eight or nine siblings and when she was very young, her father John Kelly moved their family to South Wales because their home was being ravaged by the potato famine. Oh. He got a job there in the tin industry and things were going, okay. Once there, they kind of moved in with her aunt. They were raised alongside cousins and Mary Jane grew up selling ribbons and other small trinkets to people at markets to make money. So she was taught from a young age to like hawk things.

She was beautiful with pale blue eyes. She ended up having almost waist length red hair. Like beautiful. People for her whole life, people fell all over themselves for her. Really? Yeah, it's all through adulthood. At 16 years old, she met a man named John Davies, who was a coal miner. There are conflicting reports, but she married this man.

And then she said that he died in a coal mining explosion. But it also could be that she just left him and moved to Cardiff with her cousin. So there are reports later that he never died and she was still actually legally married to him at her death. And I found her death certificate, which says her name is listed as Marie Jeanette Kelly, otherwise Davies. Huh. So she still, her last name was still Davies. Okay. So I think she was still married.

Sounds like it. Now Marie Jeanette will get into. That's not her legal name. That's what she liked to be called. And that's what's on her birth stone. She just really liked France. And she really liked her name being more French sounding. Fantastic.

She was a Francophile. She was. Exactly. Now, it was in Cardiff that she got into sex work to survive. She was without her husband's income and things were tough financially. There were not any opportunities for women outside of hawking items, like we said, in laundering. And again, without a place to be in a laundress, you cannot launder items. So according to her later, very serious partner, who becomes like a big part of everything, his name was Joseph Barnett. She told him that between 1880 and 1881, she was admitted and spent about nine months. in Cardiff Royal Infirmary. She said she was ill and she also said that she, that after she was there and like was a patient there, that she started, she got a regular job there. Oh, okay.

Sweeping and mopping the infirmary, like it was just something. She earned a little money, kept herself out of trouble. But as we see in all of these cases, these women were not the type to just stay in one place, hang out, they got bored. So this is when she moved to London in 1884. And she actually had some luck at first here. She was like a nursemaid for a few families. She became employed as a maid to a woman named Mary Cornelia Edwards.

She only stuck with this one for a bit. It was like a really good job. She lived in a nice house. But this lady was like an older lady and she was like, I'm bored of this and I don't want to do it. So she was already looking for something else very quickly. She was also the kind of woman that people like really liked having around. Like people liked being around her a lot And she always had someone wanting to give her a chance

To at least try And she would always give it her best shot But she would get bored and move on So clearly she was very likable Yeah, exactly So through some connections A woman named Ellen Mondrell Hired her to be a quote unquote

Ladies Made in a house she ran with her sister Frederica It was a high class brothel And it was fronting as a finishing school located at 28 Collingham Place in Kensington. So her official job was ladies made. I kind of love that it's a high class. It is very high class. So she began making a lot of money there.

Like she was making good money. She was able to do a lot of things she wanted to do. She was able to buy like cool clothes. She was really, it was a good, good situation at first for her like financially. Again, get a little luck. Yeah, exactly. Now, at this point, she was very popular here. Our clients would request her specifically.

She had many regulars that would come back all the time. This is when she really got the nickname Ginger. Everybody would call her that there. They said she was vivacious, happy, very kind. People really were drawn to her in and outside of her work. And she had a beautiful singing voice. And she was known to always be smiling. She was said to have, quote,

possessed of considerable personal attractions. No, this is a very nice thing to say. This is where she became very acquainted with 49-year-old Francis Craig. He was a newspaper reporter that went to her regularly. He had been an editor of the paper but was fired after stealing another reporter's work. Plagiarizing. From another paper as well. Not good.

After a while of seeing Mary Jane on a constant basis at the brothel, he asked her to come to Paris with him, where he could get her a job at a really high class place, like a gentleman's club, he said. Nice. She went but only lasted a couple of weeks before she got homesick. And she was like, I just want to go home. Yeah, I got that. So they went back to London.

And on Christmas Eve, after only knowing each other for a few weeks, they were married. Hot. It lasted three months before she just up and left him. Already. They were complete opposites. He was probably the worst. They were very opposite. And the marriage was not one of love for her.

So she was like, I'm out. She made her way to the East End because that was her only choice in desperation. Things always get to a place of East End. Because she couldn't go back to the high class place? No, she had left and they weren't going to take her back. Now, Craig hired a PI to find her. Oh, that's scary. The PI found out she was working the streets in the East End as a sex worker, and Craig was

furious. In fact, he became a suspect at one point. Oh. Now, this woman. named Mrs. Elizabeth Boku, I believe it is, ran a brothel at 79 Pennington Street, and she soon recruited Mary Jane to work there. So she had to work for her rent money there, and because she was working such a stressful and horrific job dealing with men who were abusive and awful sometimes, she started drinking very heavily just to numb it all out. Yeah. She, like Catherine

Edos, wore every piece of clothing she owned because she was very paranoid that somebody was going steal things. She started wanting to be called Marie Jeanette after because she had been to Paris now. Love, love, love. The thing that is constant is her personality when sober was something people adored. But the other way, not so much. They said when she was sober, she was, quote, a good, quiet, pleasing girl and was well liked by all of us. That's what one of her friends said. So she moved on to Mrs. Mary McCarthy's brothel at one Breezer's Hill. She was like bonking around everywhere. Later, she said about Mary Jane that she was, quote, one of the most decent and nicest girls you could meet when sober. They always have to say when sober. She left there in 1886.

She took up lodging at, you know, a bunch of different lodging houses, Doss houses. She just, she would stay with clients sometimes, like take up with these men and just kind of get a roof over her head. She would not go to a workhouse. She was like, I'm not doing that, which I don't blame her. I don't either. One of these clients that she took up with for a little while was Joseph Flemer. who was a client that she lived with on Bethel Green Road. She really liked him, according to a lot of people who knew her at the time. And, like, I think their relationship kind of continued on the sly for a while. Okay.

She has these certain relationships that I'm like, I feel like that was, like, kind of lovely. And I don't know if you had stayed. Why did you stay there? Like, maybe that would work, but we don't know anything about it. So I can't even say it. Now, in 1887, she moved to Spittlefields and was staying at Coonies on Flower and Dean Street. where Catherine Eddows had been staying before her murder. I thought so.

As soon as you said it, I was like, why do I know that place? There's a real possibility that they met and knew each other. And this is when she really fell further into heavy drinking and relying purely on sex work for money. She wasn't making money anywhere else. So now she was a full time. Now, April 8, 1888, she met a man named Joseph Barnett at the 10 Bells Pub, which is still up and you can go there. We have to go. Yeah.

And at one point, it was named, they named it the Jack the Ripper or something like that. That's heinous. And then moved it back to the, and it's like, yeah. Yeah. Let's think about branding before we go full sense. First of all, that's just a bad name. Yeah. It just doesn't sound good.

And then second of all, it's like, come off. Like, really? I don't know about that. Yeah. But it's the 10 Bells Pub. He was a laborer. He was Irish as well. Love.

He was a kind man. It said he was very awkward. Very like, just quiet. They got along, and literally the next day they met again for a drink. And then they were like, do you want to just live together? Fuck, yeah. I just love the like spontaneity. The spontaneity.

It's just like, let's go for it. Do it. What else? I mean, what the fuck else are you going to do? Honestly, at this point. So this was kind of like Catherine Etos and John Kelly. They just like lodged together at Doss and lodging houses. Yeah.

They were acting as husband and wife. Like, that's just the way it was. Well, I'm sure. Sorry to interrupt you. I'm sure it probably helped them too, to feel like a little sense of protection. Of course. Like somebody's looking out for them. Yeah.

Like, that's exactly it. Like, you guys are looking out for each other. Right. So Dorset Street was a regular place for them to stay together. We all remember what Dorset Street is. It's like the worst one. Sure do. She was still earning small amounts of, like, out on the streets.

Barnett did not want her to be doing that work. He was not happy with that. Well, especially now he knows what's going on, too. Exactly. And when he had met her, she said that she made money by making silk flowers and selling them. And he was like, that's not what you do. Yeah.

So when he found out that that's what her full-time job was, he was a little, little peeved. Well, I would have said, sir, what else do you expect me to do? Exactly. You're going to teach me a skill? You're going to teach me a skill? You're going to get me a job? Let's go. So he got a job and he was like, I'm going to try to like support us so you don't have to

do that. A skill. Yeah. And it seemed like they really liked each other and that he possibly like loved her at one point, I feel like. Because I think he didn't care about her. She started getting heavier and heavier into drinking now. It was getting a reputation around town for being angry and aggressive when drunk, because as you heard, everybody says she was the fucking bees knees when she was sober. So she would fight other women if they were on what she considered her turf.

When she was intoxicated, she was described as many, by many as, quote, quarrelsome and abusive. and and this one's not even like an insult. She would go about forever singing. So when she got drunk, she would just sing her hard out. I'm like, that's awesome. A lot of people do that. Quoralsome and abusive, not great. Not quite.

Quarlesome, all right, abusive, oh, no. Not great. Singing, great. Get it, girl. Continue. Yeah, in the spring, the two of them, Joseph and her were able to rent a room at, and the room was number 13, Miller's Court.

And it was right off of Dorset Street. So not in a good place. And this place was, what? And not great. Yeah. This was about only a quarter of a mile away from Annie Chapman's murder site. It was heinous.

It was like 13 feet by 10 feet big. The sun later referred to it as, quote, misery is written all over the place. The worst kind of London misery. Jesus. It had a fireplace. So that was nice. Misery all over the place.

Yeah. But I had a fireplace. So there's that. Look at you. Like use a low home cell. I was just going to say, I'm going to go get my real estate license. I'm like, it has a fireplace. It's got character.

And you know what? It has a bed, has an iron bed with nothing else on it except for a dirty old mattress. And a bedside table, which you can use to push against the door because that lock probably won't work to keep people out. So, yeah. Come on in. It also had everywhere I kept reading said it had this single piece of art over the fireplace. And it was called the Fisherman's Wharf. widow. And it's such a sad but beautiful piece of art. You got it over there? I do. Hold it up.

I got to show it to you. Let me see. Yeah. It's just this woman who looks to be wailing on someone's like laying on the ground, but on like some older woman's lap. Yeah. And she seems to just be like in stricken with grief. Yeah, she's like in pieces. And of course it's called the fisherman's widow. but I'm like, what an ominous piece of art to have in that dark, sad room. Like, just having that sad piece of art. Can we put a flower out? I was literally just going to say, I'm not even a fan of flower art. Like, I really am not.

But put flowers in that room. Like, is something in that room. Anything. Dark. I mean, when you look at pictures, again, we'll post pictures of like, you know, what this place looked like because they have pictures of the outside of it. it. It really is one of those places you look at and you just go, oh, man. Like, I feel sad just looking at that. Like, I feel like it had to have had a vibe there that was just like really tough.

Yeah. But it had art. Well, because you think of, I mean, the energy of the people in the home goes with the energy of the home. Exactly. And it's like this was a place that a lot of sex workers rented rooms there. Right. And they used it to bring clients back and all that. So it was like a place of desperation. And it was a place where they all kind of had to help each other, which they did. They all, like, tried to protect each other and, like, look out for each other. So it was kind of like a little community. But it was all based out of desperation and that's what made it sad. Now, in fact, it was later reported in various outlets that Mary Jane Kelly and Annie Chapman definitely knew each other. Right. And they may have, and the fact, obviously, that she was staying at Flower and Dean Street at Cooney's meant she definitely had run into Catherine Ed, at any point. And again, these are like, this is a community of women who are likely seeing each other on a regular basis. They definitely know who each other is. They've run into each other. I bet. Which makes it even scarier that they're like losing friends. Yeah, it does. But unfortunately, Joseph lost his job in summer 1888 and she had to turn to more sex work to avoid like being

losing everything. And they were very behind on rent. The guy, I think his name was John McCarthy was the landlord. He was like, okay. And he knew that this was like a big community of basically like just only sex workers in here. And he didn't want to be like, hey, I'm running out of like brothel here. But like he was like, he would let them be behind a little bit because he knew that they could pay for it later. Like he was just kind of like, he knew what was up.

It was a, it was a shady operation for sure. but one that I think just wasn't being a paid attention to because it wasn't really hurting anyone at the time, I guess. Now, while there, it's reported in a lot of sources that Joe Barnett, Joseph Barnett would say later in the inquest that she often had him read her the newspaper reports of the White Chapel murders. And it was because she was so scared of it that she just wanted to like talk about it with someone. Like she was like. Talk it through. And I think she just needed some reassurance like this won't happen to you. like I'm here.

So she would be like, just read me the next one. She wanted to be prepared to like, where is it happening? What were the clues? What are they telling us about it? Like, who can I look out for? What are the guys that people are saying they saw with these last women so I can avoid them like that kind of thing? But it's really sad that she was literally sitting in that room where she would later be

massacred. Yeah. Being like, oh, I hope I'm not the next one. Right. Now, they had also lost their room key at one point. So they had used the broken, because we'll talk about this in a second, they had a broken window. I'll tell you how it became broken. It gets worse.

They had a broken window and they'd use the broken window to kind of like unlatch the door from the outside when they had to come in. Because it automatically locked when you were inside. Like it was like a spring loaded kind of thing. That's cool. So from the outside, you didn't need like you needed a key to get in. But from the inside it would just automatically lock. Right. Now by November, unfortunately, they were.

fighting a lot. Well, they're in a 13 by 10 room. They're in a tiny room. They are struggling financially. They're hearing from John McCarthy. Like, every day you're behind this much on rent. She's resorting to sex work. She's not happy about it.

And because of all this, she was starting to drink even heavier. It was getting worse and worse. This was also making Joseph mad. Like, it just was a spiraling cycle of terrible things. I was going to say terror and then I said terrible. So it was like terrible. Terrible. Terrible things.

And her landlord John McCarthy was quoted later at the inquest as saying, I very often saw deceased worse for drink. She was a very quiet woman when sober, but noisy when in drink. She was not ever helpless when drunk. So like she could take care of her shit when she was drunk. Love that. Now people often commented, like I said, on her very drastic change in behavior and personality when she was drinking. She became at this point being called dark Mary and black

Mary because she was getting further and further into that. That's really sad. Now Joseph Barnett later said about this time that people knew her as quiet and sweet and she was again when she was sober, but quote, when in drink she had a lot more to say. Don't we all? Which I love that quote. Now at this time, she was also bringing back a lot of her friends who needed somewhere to stay. If one of her friends on the street was like I don't have anywhere to stay at a lodging or I didn't make any money tonight. Yeah. She would have them come back to her tiny, tiny little place and stay. Well, and she's being careful.

She is. She's looking out for them so that they're not the next river victim. She cares. She does. She's a good friend. She's a good lady. Now, these were, they would all help each other in this, like, court, of course, but she was actually taking people that weren't even living here back there.

This was not what Joseph Barnett wanted. He was not happy. He was, again, against the whole. street life to begin with. And he also was like this is a postage stamp that we're staying in. And like now you're adding another person to this.

He wasn't understanding like her full range of compassion that she was showing every single person. Empathy, dude. So they fought a lot about this and they fought through later October and early November. Then in November she brought another friend to stay with them

and after a huge fight where they broke a window. That's where the window was broken. or she broke the window, it said. He walked out and they never lived together again. That was their breaking point. Did they see each other? They did because they did stay friends. Okay, good.

And he would come and give her money whenever he had some despair. So he loved her. I think he loved her. That's the thing. I really think he loved her. I think they just weren't compatible. No, he also is like one of the only men in this story. That sounds like a good man.

That seems like he tried. Yeah. That he gave it his best shot. Because there was no mention. him abusing her whatsoever. Nobody that I could see in any reports said that there was abuse of any kind that they saw. In fact, most people said that they seemed like a, in fact, one said they seemed like a darling couple. Yeah. And they would quarrel. That's all that you would hear. They would quarrel and you would hear that. Right. And that she got a little, a little rowdy. A little rowdy. A little rowdy

but I didn't see any reports of abuse. Of course, it was 1880. Yeah. But this sounds like the, I think this is the first time that we've talked about a victim whose other half didn't abuse them. Yeah, it's like him and John Kelly. I think John Kelly, we don't have an actual report of abuse there either. But they did break up. They did stay friends. He tried to help her out later at her inquest. He said they broke up, quote, because she had a woman of bad character there. Oh, okay. Um, whom she took in out of compassion. And he said, she only let them because she was good-hearted and did not like to refuse them shelter on cold bitter nights. We lived comfortably until Marie allowed a prostitute named Julia to sleep in the same room.

I objected. And as Mrs. Harvey afterwards came, so another person came after her and stayed there. I left and took lodgings elsewhere. Okay. So even then he's like, she's a compassionate, amazing human being who just doesn't want people sleeping outside in the bitter nights, but I can't handle it. It's just too small of a room. Yeah, I don't want to deal with it.

Also understandable. Now, somebody who lived in the Miller's courts, a Lizzie. Prater, she was able to verify this entire series of events because she said she saw the whole thing. She saw the broken window. She saw him leave. She's like, I can clear it. Like, the whole thing happened the way he's saying it happened. Okay.

Now, the night of her murder, November 8th, she did see Joseph Barnett that evening. And it was friendly. He came by. They hung out together. I'm like happy that she got to see him in a weird way. And that he got to see her. Yeah. Now, like I said, he would give her money when he had some extra ones.

and I think he did that that night. But later she was seen drinking at the 10 Bells pub, the Britannia, and the Horn of Plenty. Now, she was seen with several men, you know, slash clients throughout the night. She was clearly trying to make some extra money. I think she was probably trying to make extra money because the next day we see that somebody comes to collect her back rent.

And that's who finds her. I think she knew rent was due. I got to make some money because she was up a long, like she was with a lot of men. this night and she was up for a long time. I think she was trying to make that money. She had a lot of rent to make up. Yeah, because I think she was something like 30 shillings behind or something like that, which was like quite a bit. Now 11.45 p.m., her neighbor and friend from Miller's court, Marianne Cox, saw her coming home with a stout man in his 30s with a reddest mustache. He was also

described by witnesses as having a blotchy face. Like many of them said that. It could have been from drinking because he was carrying a beer, I think. So I think he was. just drunk. Cox said to her, good night, Mary Jane. And she said she could tell she was very drunk, which she often would get drunk to do this kind of thing because she just wanted to get through it. And she said she slurred at her, good night, I'm going to have a song. And Cox herself was in and out working that night, but was back home for good around 3 a.m. Her home was actually at the entrance of Miller's court.

So she saw a lot of the comings and goings. And she said she didn't hear anything out of the ordinary that evening, but she was again far away from her room. She saw a lot of men coming in and leaving, but this wasn't out of the ordinary. No. She said that evening was also raining quite a bit. Oh, okay. So you know that she was pretty desperate to get that money because she was out in the rain. Right.

Now, later, she was heard singing by a lot of her neighbors, and she was singing old Irish songs in her room. And she did it for quite a long time, actually. Like, at one point, another neighbor was, like, she said she went to get up to be like, you got to quiet down. And her husband was like, leaves a poor lady alone. just let her sing. Which of all nights, I'm happy it was not night that they let her sing. Now, Elizabeth Prater, who we talked about before, she was in the room directly above Mary Jane's room. And she could see a lot of her comings and goings, and she could hear a lot of her comings and goings.

Because according to Jack the Ripper, Scotland Yard investigates, it was so flimsy built this whole place that she could even see the light going on and off and Mary Jane's room beneath her. Just through the floorboards, because it was so like. That's so scary. So she went to sleep around 1 a.m. And she said she woke up at between 3.30 a.m. and 4 a.m. Because her kitten had been awake and startled by something. And she said when she woke with it, she heard the cry of, oh, murder. Jesus.

But it was so normal to hear that that she just went to sleep. To hear oh murder. And she said, and people backed her up and were like, oh, I wouldn't do anything if I heard that either. People were just yelling, oh, murder. Oh, murder. And she said, she listened for a second and she said, I only heard the lady scream at once. So I figured it was fine. Oh, wow.

That's how rough Dorset Street was in Whitechapel in general, but they're on Dorset Street. That shit? Like you hear O murder and like a whale of O. Martyr. And Jack the River has been cruising around this area. And they're just thinking like, but it was so normal at that point that she did not even blink an eye. That's wild. Isn't that nuts?

Yes. Wild. So around 4 a.m. Sarah Lewis of two Miller's Court. She also heard someone yell, Oh, murder. And this was around 4 a.m. too, right around the same time. So she probably heard the same one.

But she ignored it and went to sleep too because she said, we hear it all the time. Okay. Now the next day, 1045 a.m., the landlord's assistant, Thomas Boehner, or excuse me, Boier, went to collect rent from Mary Jane. No one answered when he knocked. So he looked into the broken window and he saw the scene that we know. to be the scene. He saw two giant heaps of blood and flesh

sitting on the bedside table and on the bed was the mutilated human form of Mary Jane Kelly. He ran to get the landlord John McCarthy who came to the scene and immediately called police. Inspector Aberlein, our dude, he was brought on the scene.

He was a badass immediately. Right away, he called for the entirety of Miller's court to be cordoned off and no one be allowed to go in and no one be allowed to come out. Good. Dr. Bagster's fill. My dude, he was called.

He came on scene and he immediately called for Sir Charles Warren to arrive and he said, bring his newfound, his like newfangled bloodhounds and see if we can get a trail. Because that was the new thing. He was trying out like bloodhounds. All right. He said, no one should be allowed inside the room until this is done. We don't want to like fuck up the trail. Yeah.

So they're like on it. Yeah. Like let's do this right guys. Hell yeah. Like we have a room to work with now. Let's really do this police work right. Well, that's the thing they actually. I mean, it was everything else has been out in the story.

street. Yeah. So they've done the best they could, I suppose. But this one, they're like, okay, we really got to take this as like an opportunity. They're probably hopeful that they'll find something. That's the thing. They're like, we need to contain this because he finally gave us a room to work with and let's make sure we don't fuck this up. Right. So he's like, go call Sir Charles Warren. But Sir Charles Warren no longer sat in the position of commissioner of Metropolitan Police Force at that time. He had resigned the day before. The day. before. And it was not made public yet or passed down to any of these people, so they had no idea. What this case is just a series of unfortunate, unfortunate events. It's so true. Just like

nothing ever works out in this case. And I'll tell you, this is the whole Sir Charles Warren story of why this happened. When he first came on in that position, he had problems with the structure of the police department because it felt like he was lacking control and was under the thumb of the home security, the home secretary Henry Matthews, who he butted heads with. Okay. So he actually tendered a resignation back then, like way in the beginning. He tendered a resignation. But it was not accepted.

You can't, wait, what? Yeah, you can like not accept her resignation, which I always think is very weird, that you're just like, no. I didn't know that. You're like, I quit and they're like, no, you don't. What? I mean, you can still leave. though like what? But you would leave under like bad circumstances. Wow. So it's so wild.

He was just like too bad. Now back then back in May before Robert Anderson was head of the CID, a guy named James Monroe had the job. He and Matthews were kind of like brosy. Like they were pretty tight. And they clashed with Warren a lot. It sounds like a lot of people clashed with Warren. Yeah. Now before Warren could tender another resignation because he was like I can't handle it. shit like I'm out he Monroe did it first he tendered his own resignation but then he immediately was hired back into the home secretary office so in a similar position which is so shady he resigned then came back in a different position above Warren damn which you know was Henry Matthews deal like he did that on purpose yep so that piss Warren off which I understand of course now I mentioned

earlier that the people of Whitechapel were calling for the resignation of either Matthews or Warren pretty loudly at this point. They had lost faith in the police. Something had to change. So Matthews looked for a way around this to save his own butt. Of course. Of course. See, recently, Sir Charles Warren had written an article about the police in Murray's magazine.

This was not weird. Public figures would do this, but the rule was that they had to stay anonymous if you were on the police force. And he wrote this article about basically like the disorganization of the police, like he was complaining. about how this structure doesn't work and that everybody needs to be on this. He was right. Okay. But unfortunately, he used his name when he put the article in there. And he didn't care.

He was like, I don't care. You guys can read it. But he didn't know that that was a rule that you can't do that. You can get in trouble for doing that. Okay. So people knew he wrote it. Matthews used this and he brought it to his attention. He was like, you broke a rule.

Like, you were not supposed to put your name onto this. And Warren's response was basically like, okay one no one told me that rule when i when i got this job right somebody should have told me that it's not like they hand you like a handbook back then so he was like somebody needs to tell me that why would i know and then he said basically that's a stupid rule and he's like if i knew that rule which i didn't i never would have taken this job because he's like i would never like anonymously say my piece like i'm saying my piece or i'm not he said i'm up front about things exactly so that's how strongly he felt about it too he was like fuck

that I would have never taken this job. Wow. Well, Matthews was like, okay, cool. Well, now you can either resign and keep your convictions that you would never stand for this rule. Or you can look stupid and stay after you just told me that you would never have even taken this job if you knew that rule. And now you have to abide by that rule that you said you never would have even taken this job with. So he threw up the deuce real quick.

He certainly did so Warren resigned. He was like, nope, I'm not going to stay here and look like an idiot. All right. So Matthews put Monroe in his fucking position. Yeah, that's called favoritism. Petty bitches up in here. I have never seen anything. I was like, girls, settle down.

Like, Jesus. You've got a series of serial murders happening. Serial mutilations happening. I was going to say. And you're all sitting here being like, well, you're a bitch. Well, you're a bitch. Well, you're a bitch. Well, he's a bitch.

Well, because you're a bitch, I'm going to be a bitch. It's like, can you just, I don't know, do your job? Get it together. Also, Warren, didn't you say like four minutes ago that you were, if you were given the time, you could solve these murders in like three minutes? Now you have the time. You don't have a job. You are unemployed.

Let's go. You're fun employed now. Warren, let's go. He didn't. Spoiler alert. He did not solve these crimes. Yeah. So it was not, it was only four days after he resigned that it was made public.

Okay. So he had resigned the day before Mary Jane Kelly's murder. Were people pissed? Yes. And it made it seem very weird the timing in that it was totally related to his inability to solve these murders. Uh-huh. But that wasn't it? It was, I mean, I'm sure that contributed to the stress of everything and the disorganization. Right. But he was mostly just inter-office bullshit and egos that he resigned because of.

But no one knew he had resigned when the murder happened. So they're like, go get Charles Warren. And they're like, he doesn't work here anymore. No, no. So now Superintendent Arnold is on the scene. and they're waiting for the bloodhounds who have been sold back to their owners at this point and a commissioner who is no longer employed by the by the metros police board they don't even have the bloodhounds we don't even have the bloodhounds and that sucks because they probably could have gotten something they could have and these bloodhounds were like a new thing and they were everybody

was suspicious of them and like they didn't know if that was going to work and their owners also just like didn't like it and they didn't want them known that they were police bloodhound because they didn't want criminals. Retaliation. Like killing the dogs or like trying to poison their food or something like that because they were like, oh, they're going to find me out. Which I'm like, what the fuck everybody? Jesus.

Fucking wreck. So 1.30 p.m. rolls around. And Superintendent Arnold is like, okay, so I guess Warren isn't showing up and no bloodhounds are coming. And what should we do? And they were like, you know what? Bus through the way. We got to get in this.

We got to get in here. This body's just sitting there rotting at this point. Like, let's get in there. So they did. They were like, we have to just go with it. But what they did was they opened the door by having John McCarthy axed open, which I was like... Here's Johnny. This is because the door was locked, but like I said, they lost the key a while back. And only they knew that you could like reach in the window to open that latch.

But that's interesting because that means that the person that killed her likely had to have already been in that room with her. They probably didn't break in because they wouldn't have known to unlock that latch. the way that they did. I was just, would you assume that it was just a client that she brought back? That's what I assumed. But they definitely were like entertaining the possibility that this was somebody who came in after she was asleep. Okay.

But I think it was she fell asleep after being with a client. Yeah. Or she, or not even asleep, she might have just rolled over. Yeah. And he caught her by surprise as he was getting dressed. Like,

you know. But interesting. So Dr. Phillips noted that the carotid artery was likely what killed her immediately, but he could not say for sure because he was like, wow, there's a lot here. He was hopeful. That was it, basically.

Blood was everywhere. It was all over the walls. It was all over the bed. It was all over the sheets, the floor. It was soaking a two-foot radius on the floor next to the bed. Wow. She had clearly been moved while bleeding heavily as well. Okay.

Which was interesting. The fire was blazing in the fireplace. And there were remnants of her clothing and other clothing. A hat was in the, ashes. So they figured he had probably kept the fire going by throwing pieces of her clothing in there because he probably needed the light. Yep. Because it was really dark. But what's weird is like I said, the fire was blazing. So it was so large and so hot. It melted the spout off the kettle that was hanging in there. Which that's a hot and very blazing fire. And for a while. And they were like,

clothing wouldn't keep it blazing like that for that long. So they were like, what the fuck did he put in the fire? Did they never figure it out what it was? They could only find the remnants of the clothing and the hat and they were like, something else is here or he just left. I know that I'm psychotic, but like, what if Jack the Ripper really truly was a fucking demon?

Honestly, it's not. I know I'm crazy, but like. Honestly, at this point, it's not even that crazy to really think about it. It's still weird. It's a weird. What did he throw in that fire to keep that thing blazing? way it was like everything it would have died out eventually maybe oil from a lantern maybe but like you a lantern's

not going to have that much oil yeah and it's like when did he put it in right did he just leave like what the fuck and so this guy named dr thomas bond attended the scene in the autopsy as well now this was shady oh okay oh i'm a dr phillips head here okay i'm a stan of dr phillips head screwdriver here okay I'm a stand of Dr. Phillips. I'm a Phillips head screwdriver here. Okay. Now, Warren had previously told CID head Anderson there that he should have Dr. Bond consult about the level of anatomical knowledge that this killer must have to commit these crimes. He considered him the expert and not any other doctors who were there, which Dr. Phillips was at every crime scene.

Yeah. Okay. He was at every fuck. Five out of five. He knows what's up. Five out of five crime scenes. Dr. Philip was at five out of five autopsies. Right. Like he, what? That was shady to just not include him in this and take his word. Yeah, it definitely, everything's an ego thing. But Bond gave expert opinions on all five of the canonical victims, but he was not present at four of the scenes. He was only present at Mary Jane Kelly's. So then how do you even have an opinion, sir? It's fake. It's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. That is bullshit. Justice. for Dr. Phillips is what I say. They didn't give him a goddamn map. They didn't give him the proper shit he needed. And then they just oust him at the end and are like, you're not the expert. Dr. Bond is. I'd be like, fuck you. Hundreds of years later, Elena's starting a campaign for this man. That's right. I know nothing else about him. I hope he's a good guy. But whatever, regardless of what he is in his personal life, I think he was a good doctor. I think he gave good insight. He was at all these cases. The biggest thing is just

he was there. He was at the scenes. He did the autopsies. The man who you consider an expert was at one. Yeah. So that's cool. And it's the last one. That's cool that Dr. Bond was just at the last one. And he was like, hey, I'm the expert, everybody. Like just bringing a ringer at the end. Get out of here. That's bullshit. So he gave off,

well, he gave estimates for the timeframes between the murders and their discoveries for all of the scenes, by the way. But you weren't there. And he was super off. Of course. He was very off. He wasn't there. He gave giant wide estimates that anybody could have made. Get out of here.

Yeah. And then he said that this killer had no anatomical knowledge. And he said not even the kind of butcher would have or someone who slaughtered animals. Girl, bye. Dr. Bond and I are not friends. Like, why are you here? We are not friends. Get on out.

I do not agree with him. I don't subscribe to his bullshit. I do not receive that. I don't receive Dr. Bond. I think Dr. Bond needs to leave. I want Dr. Phillips back in here. Elena really said, No new friends, no new friends.

No, no, no, no new friends. Dr. Phillips. Yes. So Dr. Bond, he used absolutely... Not a friend of the pod. Just so you know, not a friend of the pod. Dr. Bond is not a friend of the pod. Dr. Phillips, yes.

Friend of the pod. So he used absolutely no expertise, in my opinion, to physically describe what he thinks Jack the Ripper looked like. All he did was read the papers. That's what he did. He just looked at witness reports. And I'm like, oh, you got that from your fancy brain. I think you just read what I fucking read, Dr. Bond, that he was wearing a fucking coat. That's like everybody said that. Of course he was in November. That's the thing. So he wrote this about the physical appearance. And you tell me if you think this is like ground breaking. He literally go, how's a coat? Basically. So he said the murderer and external appearance is quite likely to be a quite inoffensive looking man, probably middle aged. and neatly and respectfully dressed. Do you think you're saying that because every witness statement said that he was respectable looking and that he was neatly dressed and that he was mid-aged?

Do you think maybe you're saying that? I just also love like a not offensive looking man. Not offensive. Can you imagine if somebody explained you as offensive looking? As offensive. I think he must be in the habit of wearing a cloak or overcoat. Because it's November. Do you think because every witness statement said that he was wearing a coat?

Yeah. And because it's fucking November. or he could hardly have escaped notice to the streets if the blood on his hands or clothes was visible. That's not true. There were people that are butchers and they walk around all the time with blood all of them. So shut the fuck up, Dr. Bond. Assuming the murderer to be such a person as I've just described, I don't, he would probably be solitary and eccentric in his habits. Okay, I kind of think that's right.

Also, he is most likely to be a man without regular occupation, but with some small income or pension. He is possibly living among respectable persons who have some knowledge of his character and habits and who may have grounds for suspicion that he is not quite right in his mind at times. Such persons would probably be unwilling to communicate suspicions to police for fear of trouble or notoriety, whereas if he were a prospect of reward, it might overcome their scruples. Okay. So, okay, the physical description's stupid. You didn't need to say that.

We all know. We all read the witness statements, man. We get it. He's wearing a coat. The end of it was pretty good. He's not a goblin, we know. But I agree that he has to have some kind of earnings because he is visiting women of the night. And I doubt that he would get this far into a room without paying, you know, so that makes sense.

He obviously is said to be looking respectable. So I'm assuming he is a little bit of money. It doesn't mean he's like very well off. I would think that somebody who does this in like Moonlights doing this would probably not be a very normal person in there, like, all the time. Yeah, they might be, they might stray a little bit. And I think people probably would be like, yeah, he's a little off. Like, he likes weird shit. And that's why I think he maybe is like into medical shit, because he's probably one of those people that they're like, he's a little weird. Yeah, like he likes,

he likes bones and shit. Like he's like me. He would be like me. I was just going to say, like how people describe you. Yeah. But like his is like real. Like his is, you got to be actually worried about it. I'm always worried about you, TVH. As you should be. Yeah. I feel like that's Like how everybody should go through life. Just make everybody worried. Okay. I do that in a very different way. It's a good way to go through life.

We worry people in completely separate ways. Now, I'm sure Dr. Bond has some kind of positive thing here, but I don't like them. I like Dr. Phillips. Okay, I'm a hater when it comes to Dr. Bond. I think that was kind of a lame statement. I could have come up with that myself. But okay, Dr. Bond. Thank you for that.

So I'm just real mad about Dr. Phillips getting out of stupid. okay she's got like a pile of tomatoes ready and i do because he's still doing the job dr phillips still does the job but he's just not getting the glory here yeah that's not fair like now they're just throwing dr bond up there like he did it all so mary jane was found wearing a chemise of some sort around what was left of her shoulders like you can see a very thin piece of fabric looking at the photo you can see her left arm is bent and her hand is placed inside the hollowed out cavity of her abdomen Her right arm was said to be lying on the bed next to her. Both of her arms were cut haggardly in many places.

Her legs were placed wide open and knees bent out at extreme angles. The thighs were literally non-existent. They were just bone. Wild. The flesh and muscle was carved away completely, as was that of the abdomen. The abdomen was disembled completely. Both of her breasts were carved off down to the chest plate. and one of them was placed under her own head

and the other one was placed at her feet. Bizarre. Yeah. What meaning would that have? They have been trying to come up with a meaning for that. Do you think that there is one? Or do you think it could have even been just him being like, they're going to think this means something?

I think it's very possible that he was like, I'm just going to do this and see what they come up with because that'll be funny. Or he had a meaning in his head and we might not be able to figure it out. Because it's just his specific meaning at heat place. Yeah. But her face was mangled and demolished, leaving only her pale blue eyes untouched. Her ears, mouth, nose, and cheeks were slashed and carved to essentially ground meat. Oh.

It was really bad. Her neck was torn open and severed in several places, almost completely removing her head from her body. Her groin, the entirety of her vagina, was completely torn. apart and removed. The left thigh was carved to the bone and only the femur was left down to her knee. Her calves were also hacked apart. All the flesh and muscle removed from all of these areas had been heaped in a pile on her bedside table. Wow. Yeah. Now, we said one of her breasts was at her feet. Her liver was also a place between her two feet. Her spleen was on the bed next to her body on the left side and her intestines were completely removed and placed next to her on her right

side on the bed. I can't think of another crime scene that is anywhere near this. No. And then her kidneys and uterus were removed and they were put with her other breast under her head. Okay. The heart had been removed, like carefully taken out and it was nowhere to be found. And that is very symbolic to me. Yeah. Like, where did the heart go? He took that. He took that heart. It's with the other half of the kidney. Exactly. Now, the scene, according to the illustrated police news, this is how it was released later. The throat had been cut right across with a knife, nearly severing the head from the body. The abdomen had been partially ripped open, and both of the breasts had been cut from the body. The left arm, like the head, hung to the body by the skin only. So her arm was almost cut off as well.

The nose had been cut off, the forehead skinned, and the thighs down to the feet stripped of flesh. The abdomen had been slashed with a knife across downwards, and the liver and entrails reched away. The entrails and other portions of the frame were missing, but the liver, etc., it is said, were found placed between the feet of this poor victim. The flesh from the thighs and legs, together with the breasts and nose, had been placed by the murderer on the table, and one of the hands of the dead women had been pushed into her empty stomach. The details were not published at the time because it was that horrific. Yeah. So the time of death was estimated between 3.30 and 4 a.m., which aligns with the O. Murder,

sites that we heard from two witnesses. After all witnesses testified, when they saw her with different men, which we talked about earlier, another witness came out a bit after them and said he had seen Mary Jane Kelly shortly before her death. At 2 a.m. on the night she died, she was all. on Flower and Dean Street where she was seen by this witness and a good friend of hers, George Hutchison. She asked him for money, he said, and he didn't have any. She was just like, can you spare some shillings? And he was like, I can't even get a lodging myself because I don't have any money.

So he said, you know, I'm looking for a bed. I'll let you know if I find one. And she told him she's looking to make some money because she was like, I just need money. So I'm going to go find some. Now later, she was seen by him speaking to and by a lot, a couple of other witnesses. as well, speaking to a man in his 30s who was pale-complected, had a dark mustache, and was wearing a long dark coat with a red handkerchief around his neck. We heard this similar description in another one of the murders.

Several people saw them together. They were laughing and talking. He had his arm around her. And the way that George described it was when she saw this man, they both said something to each other and then like burst out laughing. almost like they may have known each other and he like threw his arm around her like they knew each other they were seen entering

Miller's court together he also said that this man was carrying a package of some kind and that he kept his head down with his hat tipped over his eyes and he heard her say to him all right my dear come along you will be comfortable

and he said that he waited outside of Miller's court he followed them because he was like I just wanted to like see like this guy seemed off to me. Yeah, he had a feeling. And he said he had known Mary Jane for like three years. Yeah. He's like, I just gave a shift. So he was like, I just wanted to make sure she was okay. So he walked to the end of Miller's court and watched. And he watched them enter the house, the room. And he said he waited. And he was like, I was going to wait to see if she came out. Some people think

he was waiting because when he came out, he was going to go in and be, he was going to go in and be like, can I stay here? He had nowhere to stay. But who knows what was the real answer? He waited for a while. And he said he waited. there and waited there and he didn't come out. So he said that's when I left. Yeah. Who knows if this is the guy and then he never came out of there until he was done. Yeah. And he's like, I don't

know, but we have no idea. They questioned him a lot because they were worried that he was a suspect too because he was claiming to be the last person. Right. But she also, I mean, I would like, I like that she saw Joseph Barnett that last night.

I do too. She ran into a ton of people that night. They all had similar stories. two other people saw this guy with her. To me, that seems like he's the guy. He might be the guy, that package he was holding. The package, the fact that it's a similar description to another one. A previous description and especially the fact that he was keeping his head down. Yeah.

And he seemed like he was like tipping the hat over his eyes. Yeah. So it's not to like see my eyes. Like I don't want too many people being able to describe me kind of thing. Yeah. I have a feeling about this one. Yeah. So I will say that even the queen. At the time was pissed at the lack of action.

Who was the Queen? Queen Victoria. Oh. Yep. On November 13th shortly after this, she sent a letter to Home Secretary Henry Matthews. And she said, quote, have the cattle boats and passenger boats been examined? Has any investigation been made as to the number of single men occupying rooms to themselves? The murder's clothes must be saturated with blood and must be kept somewhere.

Is there sufficient surveillance at night? I love that she's like, hey, are you guys doing fucking anything about this? I love that Queen Victoria was like, hey, fuckers. Like, get in line. Are you doing all this shit that you should be doing? It's like, hell yeah, queen. Yeah, get it, girl. Like, all right, she's like, are you putting surveillance out at night?

Have you, you know, I love how she's like, have you even investigated the number of single men renting rooms? Like, you idiots? Queen Victoria was like very beloved, wasn't she? I honestly don't know that. That's a good question. I think she was. I should look that up right now to find out. Look it up, man.

1888, Queen Victoria. Let's see. So, uh. There was some conflicting things. But from what I can see in the 1880s and 1890s, which is when this was going on, people seem to dig her. I almost knocked something off the wall. I got so excited about it. People seem to dig her.

Yeah. She seemed to like, I think like in the beginning she was looked at as like kind of like harsh and shit. I don't know this for sure. So like our British listeners please tell us if you know better than we do because you do because you are there. but she was apparently known as like very straight talking. Okay. And like very like to the point, which I think people like don't like sometimes. But apparently she was like, she was like known as like a good matriarchal lady.

Like badass at the end, I think. All right. Well, three fun facts. Because Numero uno, she was a Gemini. So of course there's conflicting feelings about her. And then also Queen Victoria actually wasn't even her real name. Whoa. Her name was Alex.

Andrina Victoria. So she would go by Drina or Victoria. Oh. Because Victoria was the fifth in line of succession for the British crown. Oh, damn. And then also, she was the first member of the royal family to live at Buckingham Palace. Oh, shit. Look at that.

And that is from 16 fascinating facts that you didn't know about Queen Victoria. There you go. I didn't know that. So there's that. But you know what? She was basically like, hey, Whitechapel police force and Metropolitan Police, can you get on it? Yeah. Do you want me to do your job for you?

Let's go. Which is pretty Queen Victoria-ish. It sounds like it. So it makes sense. So we are going to end there. Oh. Because now. On my random-ass question.

Yeah, your random-ass question. Perfect timing. Because now then the fifth and final installment of this, I promise you, I promise you, is going to be the theories and the suspects. Yeah, next week she's going to find like eight more theories and be like, actually we have two parts of theories. No, I swear to you, this is it. Because I was even, I was like, should I make it five? should I try to cram it into this one, but I don't want to cram it in. I'd like to be a fun discussion of like, who do we think did it?

Who do we think didn't do it? Well, and I really, I think that's a great idea anyways because then you're really separating like theories from these people's lives too. Yeah. And I think you really did a great job because each episode went so deep into who the victim was and not so much about like Jack and all that yet. Thank you. I really like how he said it.

Because obviously like, you know, Jack and his business is an important part of this because it just is. This wouldn't be happening without, unfortunately, him. But I think, like, you know, they were people. Yeah. And I think that gets lost a lot of times. Yeah. And I think it's, like, easy to be like, oh, these, you know, sex workers got killed in Whitechapel in 1880.

And it's like, that's it. The canonical five. Like, the end. We're all more than our jobs. And it's like, well, like, let's, like, just see how they got to where they got. Right. And, like, see what they were trying to do to survive and how it was even more tragic that they were murdered while doing something that was they got forced into out of desperation.

Exactly. So I think this has been like a very interesting. I swear to you, I want to like, I want to become a riparologist now. You're going to write a book about it. I'm into it now. Add your book to the list of books. Yeah, I'll add it. But this has been like really eye opening and really interesting.

It's been really, really interesting and fascinating to listen to. Thank you. And hopefully we'll, we'll have some interesting conversation to end it out. with the theories and suspects. And then we'll be moving on. Moving on. And with that being said, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you resign and don't tell anybody. Bye. Don't do that. Don't be so weird that you're Dr. Thomas Bond. I knew that was coming. I was waiting for that. Don't be there.

Don't be a weird. Bye.