Morbid - Preston Castle and the Murder of Anna Corbin

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

When it opened in 1894, the Preston School of Industry represented a change in how criminal offenders and wards of the state were treated in American society, shifting towards a more compassionate mission of reform over punishment. However, while the mission may have represented a more progressive approach to reforming young offenders, daily life for the young inmates was often as brutal as it would have been in an adult prison. Thank you to the incredible Dave White of Bring Me The Ax Podcast and 99 Cent Rental for Research!ReferencesCalifornia Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. 2022. Cemetery Tales Preston holds remains of 18. October 24. Accessed December 22, 2023. https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/insidecdcr/2022/10/24/tales-from-the-cemetery-preston-holds-remains-of-18/.Daily News. 1950. "Boys' school housekeeper murdered." Daily News, February 23: 1.D'Souza, Karen. 2015. "Castle of shivers." Oakland Tribune, September 13: 67.Grandbois, Ruth. 1950. "Housekeep at Preston School found murdered." Stockton Daily Evening Record, February 24: 1.—. 1950. "Slaying victim 'like mother' to youths." Stockton Daily Evening Record, February 24: 1.Long Beach Press-Telegram. 1950. "3 Ione School Inmates held after slaying ." Long Beach Press-Telegram, February 24: 1.Lowery, James F. 1950. "Stained clothes of Ione suspect get blood test." Sacramento Bee, February 25: 1.McClatchy Newspaper Service. 1950. "What kind of woman was slain Anna Corbin of Preston?" Sacramento Bee, February 27: 1.McClatchy Newspapers Service. 1950. "Witness bares motive behind Preston killing." McClatchy Newspapers Service, June 15: 1.—. 1950. "Inmate tells court he saw Preston killing." Sacramento Bee, March 10: 1.McClatchy Newspapes Service. 1950. "Employees are cleared in Preston killing." Sacramento Bee, February 28: 1.McManis, Sam. 2015. Discoveries: Ione’s Preston Castle opens up about its harsh, haunting past. June 28. Accessed December 21, 2023. https://www.sacbee.com/entertainment/living/travel/sam-mcmanis/article25499146.html.Sacramento Bee. 1950. "Chief Preston killing witness changes story." Sacramento Bee, April 6: 41.—. 1950. "Murder trial of Eugene Monroe is nearing close." Sacramento Bee, April 28: 1.—. 1950. "Preston suspect was grilled in 1947 LA murder." Sacramento Bee, March 6: 1.—. 1950. "Prosecutor plans parade of witnesses in Monroe trial." Sacramento Bee, April 26: 10.—. 1950. "Youth Authority decides to free Preston inmate." Sacramento Bee, October 20: 1.Sacramento Union. 1951. "Eugene Monroe, Preston parole, confesses sex-murder in Tulsa." Sacramento Union, July 28: 1.Sacremento Daily Record-Union. 1889. "The reform school." Sacremento Daily Record-Union, February 16: 8.San Francisco Examiner. 1894. "Preston School of Industry." San Francisco Examiner, August 6: 3.Valley News Service. 1950. "State planning to reopen case against Monroe." Sacramento Union, April 30: 1.Wilson, Stanley. 1950. "LA inmate is chief suspect in Ione killing." Sacramento Bee, March 1: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. I'm Elena. And I'm the third person, Cameron Esposito. And this is morbid. Yes, we have a guest on the show for you guys today. We have Cameron Esposito. Cameron is a comedian, an actress, an author, an activist, and she and her dog take fashion to a whole new level, I have to say. That last part is definitely the most important. That's what I'm working on pretty hard right now. It's changing the world. Photographs with my dog while we wear corresponding outfits. It's like my

favorite part of the day is just like scrolling through Twitter and being like, oh my God, look at Cameron and her dog. I loved the Easter one. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Yeah, Ruby's she's game, actually. I love that. I love that.

She's game. She's like, she's very good at posing. And also, you know, the world has been so overwhelming. I don't know for some, like, yes, I'm doing work and having friends and participating in a relationship. Things are happening. But I just feel like, I don't know, I just needed like something that was a reasonable career goal that felt like it was within my control and that had nothing to do with anything. There you go. That's like the perfect outlet.

It's impressive that you're able to do it as much as you are, though, with everything that you have going on to be able to coordinate that. Oh, my God, thank you. I'm really impressed. Seriously. And I was saying to Cameron, before we even started this, we're, like, super nervous because I was saying you're, like, the coolest and, like, most famous guests that we've ever had on. So we are huge fans of your work. And I have to tell you, my boyfriend was, like, freaking out that we were going to have you on an episode. And his cousin was like, Ash, like, what the heck?

So I wanted to tell you they are like huge fans. We had to shout it out. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I'm happy to be here and totally unprepared. Happy and totally unprepared to be here. That's the best way to be. I was going to, I feel like that's how we show up every day to the podcast.

It's super happy, enthusiastic and like mildly unprepared. Who knows what will happen? It just it comes out. So we'll go with it. Yeah. But when we were talking about it earlier, we were like, oh, she's like, you know, the most Hollywood person that we've had. And then I was like, I felt like we should be talking to you like in Hocus Pocus

when they're like, Hollywood. Hollywood? It's like the first thing that came to my mind. But we won't steal your shoes like that guys, though. Have you seen Hocus Pocus before? Your framework for Hollywood is Hocus Pocus Pocus. Yes, absolutely. Hell yeah.

It is. But like in the best way. It is. So good. Billy is super scary. That, I actually, as a child, I mean, not a child. I was like probably a teen when that movie came out, but that is a really scary, he's a really scary character. He is.

So, you know, it's hard to recover from that and live the rest of your life. It's true. It is. I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, wait, what is happening right now? Like, is that man coming out of the TV to come and get me? Like, what? I know my husband was not happy when I was my four-year-olds. I have four-year-old twins.

And I was like, you need to watch Hocus Focus. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. And he was like, um, like, I don't know. I don't know if four's the correct age for that, but they powered through. They did it. It's definitely a start on life. And also, I'm going to like humiliate myself here because I've actually interviewed this person. I can't remember his name right now, the dude who plays Billy, who also plays every skinny guy.

He plays his over surfer and he plays the gentleman from Buffy. Oh, my God. Oh, and he's a best episode of Buffy. Yes, he's. Anyway. He's also the guy from Pans Labyrinth. Oh, he's this guy with the hands. Absolutely.

Absolutely. You don't need to hold your hands up. I know who you're talking about. Yeah, just the guy for Pan's labramp. That's like a muscle reflex. I feel like I need to look up his name now. Well, while you do that, I'll ask you our first question. So obviously we know that you're like Hollywood and so cool. But there is a little bit of Boston in you. We read. Doug Jones. Doug Jones. Oh, got it. No, you're good. You're good. Yes. And also, quick little thing about Doug Jones in the part where he like cuts his mouth open. In hawkis, in hawkis, pocus, focus. And like moths fly out, he really put moths in his mouth. No. That's one of the worst things I've ever. He's so committed. That's so committed. Yeah, that's overcommitting.

I just had to give Doug Jones that. We all did, I think. Okay, well, I am so sorry for interrupting. Please go back to how Hollywood I am. Certainly. So I was saying, we know there's a little bit of Boston and you because you went to Boston College. Yes.

I did, yeah, went to BC, and then I lived in Somerville for a while when I, like, had my first job right out of college. I worked at Improv Asylum and Improv Boston, which are like the two improv theaters in Boston. And Improv Boston was like for improv nerds. Like everybody had gone to MIT or was currently working at an underground lab at MIT. I love it. So there was that going on. But then Improv Asylum was like the more commercial. theater and I got hired there. I was, I got hired there three months after graduated from

college. I was 21 or 22 years old. I'd never had a job before. And I got fired, I got hired right onto their main stage. Everybody was like my age now. Like everything was like in their late 30s or 40s had been like hustling their asses off. And you're like, hey gosh, you're like, I'm a child. I literally like, like remember when you, the first time you had, I had to get pulled aside by the managers who told me that it was not appropriate for me to wear crop tops. You're like, but why not? Because the audience kept being distracted. And you're like, what?

That is something that would absolutely happen to me in that situation. So relatable. She's like same. I'm 22, man. I don't know what shirts are. I'm just trying to wear a crop top. And you're like, this is my time to wear crop tops. Don't take it.

That's hilarious because I worked at a restaurant for like a wicked long time. in my, I think I was like 15 when I started there and I worked there until I was like 20. But I remember I got asked to prom there and I was like taking a prom picture and I had a crop top on. It was like not like a full crop top, but it was very cropped. And my boss at the end of the night was like he's like this like huge Irish dude with like a brogue and everything. And he was like, love, I'm so happy you got asked to the prom. But I am going to have to ask you not to wear that shirt again. Yeah, exactly.

So we've all been there. We've all been there with the crop tops. Seriously. So you were juggling like a lot when you were in college. You were like going to those both of those improv places. And then I read that you were wanting to get into social work and like pretty much started doing that. Yeah. I mean, I've had a, I've always been doing too many things. Is one thing I would say. I relate to that so hard. Yeah, I was going to say that's you. Yeah. I'm from the suburbs of Chicago. Like nobody was in the entertainment. industry. So I actually didn't know this was like a real job. Even when I was doing comedy professionally, immediately, I still had like when I worked at those places in Boston, I worked 40 hours a week doing comedy. I also worked 40 hours a week at a school. So I just worked 80 hours a week. Like I just thought this is how people manage their life. Yeah. So when I, so eventually I applied to social work school and I got accepted and I was,

I was going to school at the University of Chicago, and I was also doing stand-up. And there was a woman, I mean, I don't remember this woman's name, but she was a returning student. And she was like, sweetheart, you can always be a social worker. I don't know if you've heard that like the entertainment industry does prioritize youth. Like just FYI, if it was like one of these things that if I were you, I'd be going after right now, it would be Duke. comedy first. You have to also be a social worker at the same time. Like, this will be waiting for you. I love that. She's like hot tip. She like Ron Swanson did. She's like whole ass comedy. Don't half ass two things. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So is that kind of how you made the switch from all of that

into comedy? Yeah. I think it's just like, you know, sometimes when when there isn't an exact model. I think I just needed like permission. Like I didn't understand what I was supposed to be doing, right? So after that, then I had like, you know, more like a gig type jobs while I tried to make it financially. That makes sense. To be full time in comedy, you know, like I was the person that like stood outside and handed you a granola bar while also being dressed as a granola bar. Oh, iconic. So important. So important. That's awesome.

I love that so much. I know, right? So you become like this well-established comedian. And then you go on to write this really awesome book, which we both were kind of like reading as we're leading up to this interview. Save Yourself came out in 2020 right at the beginning of the pandemic. So do you think that was like a hindrance or do you think that the pandemic helped because so many people were home and like wanting to read something? Oh, well, it certainly didn't help because my book is released week. one of the pandemic.

Oh my gosh. And also it is called Save yourself. I love that so much. It did feel like, it did feel like funny. Yeah. Weird timing. It was like Kismet. It's a pun. Yeah. You know, I will say like,

so it's, I feel very grateful because it was still a bestseller, which was amazing. I mean, I want to talk you through how amazing that is. I had a whole tour plan. and the tour, all of the tickets, a book came with them. So when the pandemic happened, literally like a week before the book was going to come out, we canceled the entire tour.

We're funding all of those sales. And so people just went on. I like redirected people to buy it through indie bookstores. And they did. So like that's amazing because I just have to say for people to be that kind and like essentially buy it twice. Like, that just seems, it's a lot of effort. And then also, you know, I mean, I do, you know, in like a world where I could control things, perhaps I would have actually been able to go out on the road with it. But I had some pretty amazing experiences because I couldn't, namely, I had like heard about Zoom.

We weren't not using Zoom yet. Nobody was using Zoom yet. I didn't even know it was a thing. It was not a thing. Right. It was like no articles had been written about it. No. And my partner ran some Zoom events for me and I would invite people that I know.

And I know like really amazing, impressive authors, you know? So like Roxanne Gay and Tegan Quinn and Sayy Jones were doing these panels with me. But again, it was so early in the pandemic. But there were like 500 terrified queers in our houses, like freaked out a panel of like New York Times bestselling like highbrow authors. And we got Zoom bombed. And somebody shared the most hardcore pornography I have ever seen in my life. I read like a little bit about that. I was just going to say we were going to ask.

you about it. Did you feel like you were literally like very different, but like you're on stage again with like a heckler entering the chat, but a heckler that's like, here's some hardcore podcast like pulls that porn hub on their phone. We didn't know what Zoom bombing was. Like that happened. Nothing had been written about that yet. So I was like, wait, did I press the hard perna? Oh, monkey button? Like, is that a filter? How is this even happening? I did the classic thing, like the classic thing that you do when you're really good at technology. And I slammed my lap. You know what I mean?

I was just, that is exactly what I would do. Make it go away. I'm leaving. This will end it for everyone. That is amazing. They did that to Britney Spears too, minus the porn. But they like went into her, like, trial for her conservatorship and like Zoom bombed that. How does that even?

No one is safe from Zoom bombs. Right? They zoom bombed her conservatorship. I'm not. even kidding you. Nothing's safe. Nothing is sacred or safe anymore. Like, that break, that is, that's, right? Right. Got to collect yourself after that. It's a lot. It's a lot. Half to take. It also like, how do, I just don't understand, like, you have to be pretty good at hacking. Like, I can't even get onto Zoom things that I'm invited to. I can't get onto them when I make them.

Like, I make a Zoom meeting and I'm like, how do I get in here? How do I let other people in? I don't know how this work. In fact, it just happened with this Zoom. I was like, Andy, like, our manager. I was like, are you the host? Like, how do we let everybody in? We're like, who's the host? How do we do this? Andy helps. You know what? Some people have a lot of time. Yeah, to say the least. A lot of time and no shame, apparently. So it, and again, like, just putting it back to like stand up, I'm, I'm a huge. huge stand-up comedy fan, like huge. Me and my husband, our entire relationship is built on going to stand-up shows. Like, oh my God. Yeah. One of our first dates was at a stand-up show. Like, we've been to, like, hundreds, I swear. It's like their thing. Yeah. So we are- Who did you see? I love this.

We've seen, who was our first one. Actually, our first one was Gary Goldman. Oh, the gullman. Oh, the goal. Of course. And we saw him actually at the comedy cellar in New York because we got, like, the tickets and we happened to get put, like, right on the stage. I think that same night like Amy Schumer just like popped in and we were like, oh, okay. But so I'm a huge stand-up comedy fan. I always wanted it because I was thinking about it how it must be that whole Zoom bombing thing is like having a heckler that like can just infiltrate what you're trying to do. So I always kind of wondered, how do you choose like when you get a heckler at a show? Because I'm sure it happens to literally everybody.

How do you choose like which ones to ignore and which ones to kind of respond to or like interoper? or like integrate into the show a little bit? Because I know everybody does it a little differently. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different factors. One is like, for instance, sides of the room. Like sometimes if you're playing for, say, thousands of people, there is something happening for, I, as a performer,

will be aware of stuff that is happening in the room that not everybody will be aware of. Because like you can't hear or see everything. Yeah. So in that case, it's almost. oftentimes it's almost better to just try to like plow through, which is, it's, which is difficult. Like, it's not fun to do that. But then in a small room, when everybody knows what's going on, that really requires some attention because it's distracting for the rest of the audience. Right. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, the thing that is frustrating about it is that, like,

you know, I'm going to win because, number one, either I'm like better at this because this is my actual job, or I can just have that person kicked out. Right. Exactly. You know, and I, it's also, I will just say it's not fun to win that way. No. Because, you know, I think that like oftentimes, like I just think I'm thinking about in terms of, you know, when people share video, when there's like some like viral video about like, comic destroys, heck,

I just want to say that that actually feels shitty because I'm sure like it's not it's not like what I came up there to do and it feels like giving somebody else control of the night even when you win like it's like you win but like but is it really a win. Somebody yeah exactly and it's like negative attention. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. It's giving them what they want a little bit so it's like because they clearly did it to get like some sort of attention. I feel like it's like dealing with trolls as creators, but you deal with it like in real time, which I'm good with that. Like, I don't know how people do it. Yeah. Because we can, we have like time to like take a moment and be like, okay, don't, don't respond to that.

Like, go read a book. I don't know. Like, go pet a dog. Like have a moment. Because I know when we've like just something to make you happy. Like, because I know when we have responded to people, immediately afterwards, I'm like, I feel gross. You know, like, I don't feel good about that. It didn't. Oh, my God. So, but you're, like, you have to do it literally in the moment, which I'm always like, oh, I can not do that. Yeah, it's not, it's not the best.

But I mean, you know. But it's part of the job, I was going to say, comes with the territory. Yeah, it does. It's also, I don't know. I mean, like, ugh, I'm just, like thinking about the guy that does this. And I like, oh, like we get it. I feel threatened. Like I understand.

Because that's where it stems from. Trying to hit on your girlfriend. I don't know. I'm sorry. You feel that way. You're like, you bought her these tickets. I'm confused. This is more about you guys than it does about me.

Sure. Yeah. Well, just to take it back to your book really quick because I loved your book. So good. loved your book. I was laughing out loud. And there was one thing that I just, like, couldn't stop thinking about. So it was the story that you were telling that you were walking through your neighborhood. I think it was, like, recently when you had written the book. Oh, yes. And you said somebody, like, yelled something really nasty at you. And I love that you were like, I just put

a little bit of dog poop on their driveway. But then you talked about how you relayed that story to, like, you know, your friends and some family. And like, it got easier to relay each time. And then you wrote a joke about it. And you said you shared the story as a person first and a comic second. And I loved thinking about it that way because as like a fan of stand-up comedy, I've always kind of thought like, is that how jokes come about? Like does it, does it always evolve that way for you? Is that kind of like a rare thing? No, I mean, you know, a lot of that. So yeah, that was a story about like I got called a dyke on the street in my neighborhood. And this is, I will speak on behalf of all stand-up comics, some of whom might not even know that this is basically.

But I really believe that like the reason that we do this job, the reason I do this job, is like, you know, there was a time in my life when I didn't feel heard, when I didn't feel safe, when I was like a goony kid. And so I learned how to win people's acceptance and affection by making them laugh. And then also it's a way of sort of pushing back on like societal injustice, but also like personal injustice that that that sort of hides the fact that the comic is hurt

like we're hurt we're just hurt people everybody's hurt yeah we're just hurt and so the joke is really like here's how you've treated me here's how I want to be treated this is often also why this is what like when you know

the straight cis white dude is like cancel culture is coming for me it's like no some of the stuff that's been hurting you is that other people now want space and you feel hurt that like a trans woman wants to be seen as a woman that hurts you because you've had 100% of the power and now you feel threatened like you're you're you're showing yourself like yeah the cancel culture it's not it's not that um you know you're just receiving feedback that people think you actually still have more power than this person um and so anyway i just say all of that to

to say that like I think I just got to a place in my life where I was so good at using stand-up to sort of like deflate my feelings of being hurt, but my friends didn't know the ways I had been hurt. My closest people didn't know the ways I had been hurt. I was taking it to the stage first and I just kind of got to, it was after my, I made my special that was called rape jokes and I had talked about an experience with sexual assault. and I invited a good friend of mine who afterwards was like, I didn't know this happened to you, you know, and I'm so sorry. And I don't like regret making that special,

but it was eye-opening to have a friend say, I didn't know this happened to you. And I was like, oh, I know why that is, because I never told you. Right. I never told you as a person first. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah.

And so, you know, I just am, that just stopped feeling good. Like, I think I like took this awesome and helpful coping mechanism. like to the end of the road. And so it's like awesome. Like I love that I have that skill. And I like have run it into the ground. So let's develop some other skills so that not all of the pressure is in this area. Yeah.

I love that. So it kind of like evolved into. It's like a coping mechanism. And then you found like a different one that works better. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Or you know, works in tandem. You know, right.

The stuff that we establish as kids, it's also, you know, I think it's like something about being. you know, your late 30s or this, you know, it's like I've been in the working world. I've been an adult for a while and, oh, this is the stuff I was doing. I don't necessarily want to be operating the same way that I was. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, because if I was operating the same way that I was when I was 21 at 35, I'd be questioning a lot of things. Even at 24 years old, I'm like, somebody recently told me that I like wasn't the same person

I was when I was 21 and I was like, they kind of said it like an insult and I was like, I hope you realize like that's the biggest compliment ever because like I don't want to be. You should evolve as you. Like I'm good. Yeah, exactly. That's a positive thing. Right. We don't want to lay dormant at a certain age.

That's not what we want to do. It's not what life's about. No. Yeah. So it feels like it's kind of like cathartic to kind of do it that way to like get that story, get it to a place where you feel I think less like probably shattered by it. I assume because that sounded like it was like a pretty terrible experience. Yeah.

And then being able to share it in a way that makes people laugh and makes you feel like you can talk about it now. Yeah. I think, you know, that is really what it is. It's so I've always been using catharsis, but I have recently adopted intimacy. You know, like I've always been sort of like blow all the dust off of it and like ring it dry of feelings. but recently added to that the idea of share feelings and allow them to exist.

And so all that working together, it's really nice. Yeah. I love that. I feel happy. Yeah. It's good. I find that like extremely relatable too. Yeah.

Definitely. For sure. Even though I'm not a stand-up comic. Yeah, there's that whole piece. Yeah. Up until that part. Yeah, we're just humans. Yeah.

And then one last thing I just wanted to mention. before we get into the case that we're going to talk about, is I am a huge Gilmore girl's head. So in the book, when you mentioned that you came out to your mother over tuna fish sandwiches and that the whole scenario would have been so much better if you were Gilmore girls, I died. I was like iconic moment. I was like, all right, we're one. I got it. It's like, this is awesome.

Absolutely. I just love it. Anything that can be signed off Amy Sherman Palladino. I'm all for it. Any experience in life. It just wraps everything nice up. It does. Do you enjoy watching the re-release?

I just want to ask you that one question. Oh, my God. But how did they end it like that? I don't know. I'm like, I need another one. It was funny. It was funny to me watching the new episodes because I think I watched that show

before I ever worked in, Angeles and when I watched that show when I was like a kid, I thought it looked like it was a real place. 100% I had no concept of what a set was. And so I was like, I wonder where this is. And it was actually like stunning to watch it with high deaf television in, you know, 2019 or whatever that was released and be like, oh my God, wait, I've actually been here. I've like been to a meeting here.

You're like, is that perfect? What's going on? this is fucking Warner Mother's studio lot you've been lying to me this whole time it's Connecticut with like mountains in the background and their coffee cups are like floating out of their hands because there's no actual coffee in them

always oh yeah there was so many things that were like oh okay I let that go in the original series but it was I need it back I need more but Gilmore girls when it ended I was like all right I know it's Logan's but like can we can we explore that a little

bit because I hate you, Rory. I need to. I hate you Rory. We need to go further into this. So I guess building off of that, too, I feel like we have like a lot in common, just like getting to know you like through your book and just through like things online. So we had to ask, are you a true crime or like paranormal fan? Like do you like the creepy weird stuff? Anything spooky? So here's a deal. I am endlessly fascinated by both true crime and also like horror movies. And I cannot watch them at all. Like I cannot watch.

So I am really scared of everything. I'm like truly afraid of the dark like that person. But I'm interested. You know, it's like that thing where it's like if it's that scary to you, then it's like super interesting. So I would like to talk to you about my method for watching scary things. Please do it. You're going to want to do.

it early in the morning. Subtitles on, sound off, listen to something else. Like a, some sort of soothing. Like Enya, spa music. Taylor Swift's song. Scott music is perfect. Yeah. Pre- spoil yourself on all of the plot points so that you know what to expect. And as you're reading through the synopsis, look up film stills. So you're looking at a picture of what's going to happen. You're reading what's going to happen. And then you're listening to something else because it's the music that gets you. It is. It absolutely is. It gets you every time. If it's good, it's good. This is my tried and true method for engaging in this type of material. I love it. You have it down to a T, down to a science even. I think it's brilliant to do the

closed captions and not sound. Because it is like horror movies are all about sound. Yeah, yeah, it's all about the music. When you said that, I was like, yes. Yes. Yes. But that's kind of like I'm terrified of the ocean in all water. Like I'm terrified of it, but I am fascinated by the ocean and all water. Sure. So I get it. Yeah. Same thing.

I'm actually good with water. So if you want to team up, I was going to say. We've got a lot of cover. All right, cool. Divide and conquer. Yeah, exactly. We can explore the seas and watch horror movies together. Exactly.

It'll be wonderful. It will. Well, I don't have any close captions for this. case, so we're just going to have to horrify you in real time. Okay. However, I did pick a case that was like a little Hollywood-esque kind of to, you know, bringing it back to Hollywood. So we're going to talk about Thelma Todd. Do you know anything about Thelma Todd at all? No, I've never heard this combination of names. I'm so excited. This combination of names. I love it. All right, so we're going to get into it then. So Thelma Todd was born in 1906 to parents Alice and John Todd. She was

actually a Massachusetts girl who grew up in Lawrence, Massachusetts. What what? What? Massachusetts. Look at that. Yeah. So Thelma had a really rocky childhood. Her father was super, super distant.

And when he wasn't being distant and ignoring her, he was being abusive to not only her, excuse me, not only to his wife, but also to Thelma as well. And he actually ended up leaving the family eventually because it wasn't working, I guess. I was going to say, because things were going really well. Things were going awry. so he decided to dip. But he dipped and things didn't really get that much better because Alice didn't really have a knack for like choosing stand-up guys. She ended up bringing a lot of shady characters into Thelma's life.

And the guys that she dated were all either abusives or abusives. Abusives. We're all either abusive or alcoholics. And they still mistreated not only her, but Thelma too. So this was like a really rocky start. But somehow Thelma pushed through everything. She was like a super driven girl, really smart. And she actually had dreams to become a teacher someday.

So she finished high school and she went to the Lowell State Normal School, which fun fact is now UMass Lull, which I used to frequent. I've been there too. Same. I used to frequent UMass Lull. Let's just make sure that it's all places I've been. Yeah, perfect. Me, I've been there. I've seen that building.

Who knows? It might be. You never know. So she was at UMass. Well, what's now UMass Loll, excelling at her dream. She actually started her student teaching, and it was clear that this was something that she was going to be really good at. Except her mom had different dreams for her daughter, because for most accounts, Alice was pretty manipulative. And her dream was to be a stage mama, which I feel like we all know somebody like that a little bit.

She saw this star power in Thelma. She wanted Thelma to compete in pageants and was like, this is going to take you so many places. So Thelma was like, okay, I'm going to, I'll do the pageant. but like I'm going to be teaching as well and like working on my schooling. I think it's really important to force your dreams on your children. Yeah, live vicariously through them. Absolutely.

It won't do any damage. Especially in like a Lawrence and Lowell type of a play. Like for anybody who like isn't super familiar. I think of those as like, you know, they're more of like a... You're like, what's the word? Color sort of a vibe.

Yeah, for sure. Like a Broadway. is sort of a vibe. Like lights and glitz are not what you think of. Not exactly. Not over at UMass Lull. But Thelma was really good at, like I said, she was really good at teaching, but she was also amazing at the pageants.

And she kind of just succeeded at both while she was doing everything. And I feel like that's because she's a Leo. And Leo's are really passionate and like super consistent. So it's not surprising. Look at that. She actually ended up winning the title of Miss Massachusetts in 19, 25, so we're going places. And then she went on to compete in the Miss America pageant, which is like big deal for little Lawrence girl. It's nationwide, one might say. Yeah, you know.

Which also existed in 1925. I didn't know that either. I don't know anything about Miss America. I guess so. Neither did I. When did this start? Apparently in 1925. But unfortunately, Thelma didn't hang out there that long. She lost to Miss California. How many states were there? How many states were Oh my God, I should have Googled that. You Google that on the back end. Who competed in this? Seriously. Well, Felma competed.

She did not win. Miss California won. However, there were like Hollywood scouts at this pageant, and they were working for Paramount. And they were looking for young actresses to send to this school, the Paramount School for Stars. And they saw Felma, she caught their eye. And they were like, she would be perfect at this. But there is one problem. She's like, in their opinion, she had a weight problem and she was going to have to watch her weight.

Which, if you look at pictures of her, she absolutely did not have a weight problem. This was just like the beginning of Hollywood. I was going to say, that's just gross. Yeah. Oh my God, that's funny. This is that time when like a studio owns you, when the different movie studios are like contracting and investing in actors. Like the Maryland Monroe effect. giving you that feedback because, I mean, first of all, fuck them, but also giving that because they're like, then you're like in their stable of horses.

Right, right, exactly. You're like an investment to them. And just wait, you just describe that perfectly because once we get into this, you're going to be like, yep, yep, that checked out. There it is. So she was off to L.A. They discovered her. She was ready to go. She left her dreams of being a teacher back in mass. And she was excited to start something new. So she immediately met with Hal Roach, who at the time was the head of Paramount,

pictures. And Hal agreed he saw like star potential in her. He was like, she's beautiful. But I do agree. I think her weight might be a problem. But no worries. He had an easy fix for that. He put this clause into her contract called the potato clause. And this clause said that she could not gain more than five pounds or she would be fired as soon as humanly possible. What's the potato? The potato clause. I guess she was. she like couldn't eat potatoes because they make you fat. Because potatoes will do that again. Where does the potato come?

The potato clause. I was imagining that the potato weighs five pounds. But they go, okay, that's good. More than a potato. And you can't. And that's, you're out. It's such a big potato. It's just one thing.

It's a huge potato. It's one of those state farm potatoes. Like an award winning potato. State Fair potato. It was at the Idaho State Fair, exactly. If I had a potato clause, it would be like everywhere I go. needs to have potatoes for me to eat. A zillion percent.

That's my potato clause. I eat potatoes every single day now that I think about it. Like probably every single day. I wouldn't have been a good Thelma Todd. So here's my question also, because this is also a time when like, am I just going to predict what happened? Go ahead. They like gave her drugs, right? Oh, my God.

I feel like you have my script in front of you. It's like the Marilyn Monroe thing. I say again. I echo. But unfortunately, that was like a perfect transition, by the way, thank you. Because this healthy work environment was being aided by Alice, Thelma's mother. And Alice was the one who quickly got to work getting Thelma a prescription for diet pills. As a good mom does.

Back then was essentially just cocaine or like some kind of amphetamine. Yes, exactly. And we're off. This was not like a nutrisystem kind of thing. It was a little different. So she quickly, quickly got hooked on the amphetamines, unfortunately. And she basically struggled with the addiction for the rest of her life, which is really sad because it's not really what she signed up.

I mean, I guess, well, no, that's not what she signed up for. I was going to say, it's not really what she signed up for. No, at all. So even though she never set out to act, she was a natural at it, even while on amphetamines. And Hal really wanted to make a female version of Laurel and Hardy. So he came up with the idea to cast Thelma. alongside a woman called Zazu Pitts, who was like really, really famous at the time. Zazu.

Yeah, I love that name. Zazu. That's just like a cool name. You got to be famous with that name. Honestly. That's a great name. It is. Zazu Pitts.

Seriously. Get out of here. So, yeah, he wanted them to be like a female Laurel and Hardy, so he would have them work in these comedy shorts together. And they made a really great pair, but eventually Zazu moved on because she had an amazing name, so she could really go places. And she was replaced by a woman called Patsy Kelly, which, I'm like, are we distant relatives? Because that's my last name. Perhaps. And it didn't really matter

who Thelma was working with because she just had this natural, like, talent and star power. And in fact, when she first started acting, all of her roles were in silent films, which in like shorts like that, but over the course of her career, she started doing more talkies, is what they called them back in the day, which were just movies where you could like speak and everyone would hear you. You have to be so expressive to be in a silent movie. I know. Your face has to do like all the work for you. Yeah. So funny. Yeah. You need good eyebrows. Well, how helpful to be on speed. You know? There it is. Boom. Yeah. Really make those face muscles work. Seriously. So she ended up acting in actually over 120 movies and shorts throughout her career. People just couldn't get enough of her.

They, like America loved her. They called her the ice cream blonde and hot. Hot toddy, which I love. That's what I call you. Hot toddy? That's news to me. I call it behind your back. That doesn't even sound like an insult. I'm here for it.

Thanks. It's a compliment. Thanks. It's not why your head to get too big. That's true. And I do have a big head too, so I don't make it get bigger. So in 1931, Thelma met a man named Roland West on the set of a movie called Corsair. Roland was directing the film, and obviously Thelma was acting in it.

But he had convinced her to act. under the stage name of Allison Lloyd, which when your name is Thelma Todd, I don't know why you would then go to Allison Lloyd, but he, in his mind, this was Thelma's first dramatic role, and he was worried that because she was so well known for comedy, having, like, Thelma Todd in a drama wouldn't work. Hmm. And, like, wouldn't be good for the film. But it was fine for the film, and she never used that name in anything ever again.

She was just Thelma Todd. Like, Thelma's a silly gal name. I guess so. So even though he wanted her to change... I think that's exactly... Oh, no, go ahead. Oh, that's exactly the opposite of how I view things. It's like when you see Kristen Wigg in a movie and she's really good at...

And she has her drama chops. You're like, shit. Yeah, you're just like multifaceted. Oh, yeah. That's always my favorite. Seriously, but apparently it wasn't Roland's favorite. Now, even though he tried to change her name, they really hit it off. I don't think I would hit it off with somebody that.

that wanted to change my name, but to each their own. I'm not for Roland, but who am I? That was only like one problem. The other problem was that he was he was hella married. He like had a whole last wife. And he was also, which like, it doesn't really matter now. But at the time, everyone was like, well, he's so much older than you. Like that's not acceptable.

So he was married, older than her, and he didn't like her name. Three strikes. Yeah. Now a lot of people point out that it seemed like, Oh, God. Yeah, right, right? Like, oh, no. And what's going to happen?

I know. And everyone pointed out, like, this kind of relationship was doomed from the start because of all of the reasons that I previously stated because of everything. Because of that laundry list over there. But Thelma was always kind of looking for that, like, father-like figure that she had missed out on as a child now in her adult life. But she wasn't really good at picking these people as we will come to see. see. Oh, yeah. And actually there was a movie about her life and death called White Hot, which I

have yet to watch, but I want to watch it. White Hot. And one of the producers, his name was Frank von Zernick, he said about her, quote, she was drawn to men who were extremely dangerous. That was her Achilles heel. Playing with fire was a personality problem. She was abused and manhandled, and ultimately, we think it cost her life. This is such a feel-good, too. I know, huh? But yeah, so that's really But like, I feel like this is, I feel like this is the vibe, though. For me, it's like, I still think this is what we're working with, right? Like, this is, it's the tale from then. And it's like any time, I'll tell you what really, like, upsets me is when I see an actor

who has had some, a woman who has had some level of success and then gets very thin. Like, she's like been young and successful. And then she has like this extreme thin period. that like really I mean I'm somebody who has previously had an eating disorder and so first of all it's just like visually triggering for me but also just to see that

I'm like oh no like what is being told to this person so anyway obviously we're still here but that's one thing that when I see that I'm like oh we're still in that zone and obviously there's a million other examples but like that's one that really oh yeah absolutely makes me it feels I feel so

nauseated. I know, and it's, because it's like right in front of your face. That's one of those, because you can't see a lot of what's happening, obviously, behind the scenes. Right. But that's so, like, visual right in front of your face that you're like something. It is happening here. Well, in Hollywood's version of fat is just, I'm like, oh, God, I will never step foot there. Like, huh? You know? Like, they thought, when you were talking about that in the beginning, like, how you're saying, like, that bothers you so much. I thought of Britney Murphy. Yes. It's so absurd. It is. And she had that, like, period. Obviously, she had a lot of, like, troubling things going on. But she had that period where it was

like really scary how much weight she had lost. And you were like, oh, no, like people are telling you this at all angles, I bet, and that's horrible. And actually, I think her mom helped her kind of get on diet pills, too. Yeah, because we covered her. Yeah, weird parallel. Weird. But yeah, so Thelma was really, really going through a time. She was not good at picking men. The men in her life were just mean to her anyways. And one of those men was Pascal, Pat, I believe it's DeCico, or I'm going to say might be DeCcio. Is he a bad guy? He is a bad guy. He actually later was married to... Is it a C... Is it a C? Is it a C? It is a C. So it's D-I-C-C-O. So I think it's DeCicco. Yeah, or like DeC-C-I-I, something like that because in Italian, the C-H is Cah and the-C-is-cha.

Huh. Yeah. I'll bring in my Italian. Look at that. That was helpful. I feel like we'll call him Pat so that we don't get confused. We should have had the little like star go by. That's like the more you know.

I know, right? But he was actually later married to Gloria Vanderbilt and had like a very tumultuous relationship with her. He was from New York. Wow. Anderson Cooper. That's what I got out of that. Exactly.

That's all I heard. That was the best thing that came out of that. But he was from New York, and he met Felma when he moved to L.A. in hopes of pursuing acting himself or a career as an agent. Now, he was really super shady. He was involved in, like, a lot of illegal dealings. There were a lot of rumors surrounding him that he had ties to the mafia. So just to kind of give you a picture of what he was doing.

And Thelma didn't know that yet, obviously. So in 1932, she ran off to Arizona and like eloped with this punk. As one does. Obviously. He was the kind of guy that drank too much. And by this point, Thelma was drinking a lot too. She was at this point struggling with alcohol as well. Their marriage right off the bat was like super tumultuous, very violent.

Pat would beat Thelma so badly that she once was rushed to, excuse me, rushed to the hospital for an appendix. appendectomy, which was like, that's just like nuts to me. Like how did he affect your appendix? Yeah. And then on another occasion, she may or may not have broken his nose in a fight. So, really loving relationship. Wow. Yep. They divorced only after two years in in 1934. And Thelma actually told the judge in code that Pat was very abusive. She was like, he does, he mistreats me in front of like our guests. And I guess back then that was code for like, he misdeme. treats me all the time. Oh my God, because you couldn't say it out loud. Yeah, like you, I guess like for your image, even though it's nothing that you've done wrong. But so it was then that Thelma swore that she

was never going to drink again. Like, she was like, as soon as I'm out of this, I'm not drinking, I'm going to get clean and sober. And it was good for her, but Pat's kind of seemed to hang on to the idea that he and Felma were going to figure things out someday, which, spoiler alert, they did not. I was going to say no, Pat. And then he met Gloria Vanderbiltz. And then Anderson Cooper came. Yeah, exactly. The end. That's it. And we're done. That's the story. No, we're going to get back to Roland, of course. So Roland West was actually one of the constants in Thelma's life. So when she left Pat, she went right back to him. And Roland wasn't really feeling his whole like director's life anymore. And he was kind of in search of a new project. Thelma was just coming down from the divorce and she needed something to distract herself too, aside from acting. So together they decided to open up a restaurant. And it was right along the Pacific Coast Highway, and they decided to call it Felmatade's sidewalk cafe. And the building still exists today. I wonder where it is. What town is it in?

Do you know? Um, I believe, yes, I do. I have it written down later in here. I want to say, it's one of the Santas. It's one of those Santas. Hang on. I'm going to look it up in real time. Santa Monica. Santa Monica. Hold on. I think it is Santa Monica. It's like way deep down here. I'm looking it up. We're finding it. We're finding it. It says it's Pacific. Pacific Palisades. Ah. You got it. It's like I'm from Massachusetts.

I don't know what that means. Right north of Santa Monica. There you go. Okay, perfect. I think you were right. I think it is Santa Monica. So there was a Santa in there. There was a Santa.

I told you guys. Hold on. I'm just scrolling back up now. I told you. I told you. So yes. So they opened that up. They called it Thelma Todd Sidewalk Cafe.

And you said it's still there. The building is still there. Yes. That's cool. But don't forget, Roland was still married to his wife, Jewel Carmen. Oh, that. Juul ended up becoming a business partner to the two of them, which is probably the world's wildest trio to open a restaurant together, I feel.

Get it. Yeah. No issues will come of that. It was quite a setup, but it worked. And then most sources that I read said that Jewel was fully aware that Felma and Roland were like getting it on together, but she just kind of looked the other way. All right. Yeah. All right, Jewel.

Get it, Jewel. whatever works for you yeah so felma's hollywood circle came out to support her business and at the beginning it did incredibly well the menu was super extensive there was kind of something for everyone i found this advertisement from back in the day for the restaurant and it said quote felma todd sidewalk cafe serving a long island shore dinner fish with allison sauce unequaled french italian dinner pancake suzette unsurpassed the reason from the Savoy London and the Crayon Paris comes our chef. Fancy. So they got a fancy chef at this place.

Wait, we had a French happening. There is fish with Allison sauce. But this is the director that had her have that name, right? Yes. That's really, yeah. He changed her name, but he didn't do the potato clause. But I guess he likes the name Allison. That's a lot.

It's a weird thing. That's so much. Like the name of the place is Thelma Todd's Roadside Cafe and they have Allison sauce on the menu. You know, for old times sake. Just sometimes we have that on the menu. But at the menu when I was reading it, like, just even in that little blurb, I was like, there's so many things at this restaurant that just like don't really go together. It was okay.

Pancakes. There was French cuisine. I was like, wow. There truly is something for everyone. Yeah. And this property is actually like a really big property. and the whole layout became really important later on. So let's kind of talk about that a little bit.

Let's do it. Let's do it. So the restaurant itself was street level, and that's where most of the elite stars would come to dine. The restaurant also had a second floor, which was private, and it was called Yoia's Room. And it was more of like a nightclub vibe where people could dance but also grab a drink, something to eat, but it was like a little more lively than the downstairs. And then upstairs in like a separate part, Thelma had an apartment. and even though Roland's house was kind of nearby, just like a little drive up the hill, he would also stay in the apartment a lot with Thelma.

He had his own room, but like I don't really think he used it that much. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and assume. I'm going to make an ass out of you and me and assume. So they were getting it on the low, but like really not even on the low. Getting it on the medium. On the high. Yeah, exactly. On the third floor.

So he, his house was literally like right at the top of the hill. and then the restaurant is underneath. But he stays in the apartment all the time with Thelma. And Jule is just like at their beautiful mansion. I mean, I guess if it doesn't bother her, she's like, I'll just stay in this mansion. Yeah, right? I'll take this mansion to myself. Have fun in that third-story apartment over a restaurant.

Yeah. Oh, my God, you two. Look, I did something that maybe I'm not supposed to be doing while I'm listening, which is that I looked up this place because. Oh, I do it every time. Oh, go ahead. You might not know this, but the Pacific Coast Highway goes right on the on the Pacific Coast. So if you're driving to go to the beach, say, for instance, and you're not going to Orange County.

If you're going, if you're trying to go from where I live, I live like way far on the east side of L.A. And way far on the west side of L.A., those things are, it's like not the same community at all. It's not the same vibe. It's not the same type of people. But the way to go to the beach is the Pacific Coast Highway runs along Santa Monica, the Pacific Palisades, Malibu. And so you, and then all the way up to like Santa Barbara and then all the way up like further. Like it runs along the coast. So it's the one road.

Like it's like there's a road. There's maybe a parking lot in some places. And then there's like beach ocean. Oh, wow. And so anyway, if I was like, if this place still exists, I mean, this is to go. to go to Malibu to, like, I've driven past this place a zillion times. So I looked up where it is. And I'm like sure I've seen this building.

It's like a very distinct building. It's like Spanish style. Yeah, I'm looking at it now. And anyway, now I will know in Fuge when I drive past that. Yes, exactly. And you'll think of us. Like everybody that lives in L.A. has driven on this road. It's like the road you drive up.

Yeah. So you had to pass by it. It was Thelma's road at one point, everyone. It was Thelma. Never forget. that's so cool though I didn't even realize it was like the like main main road yeah the main main beach road yeah love that so uh yes so they were they had their restaurant they're upstairs downstairs just live in their lives together and then even though he was married Roland was like super jealous

when it came to Thelma going out and meeting new people I'm shocked which is so shocking but it's wow so ridiculous it could blow me over it's like You have a whole ass wife over there and I can't go out with like Tom from down the street. Why not? I know. Seems like a double standard. You would think Roman would be logical. He was not.

He was actually the farthest thing and we'll see that because such was the case on December 14th when Felma headed out to a party being held at the trocadero cafe and her honor. Now, the party was being put on by a man named Stanley Lupido who had starred in the film, You Made Me Love You, Alongside Felma. Now, Roland told Thelma that he was locking the apartment door at 2 a.m. So she better be home right then or before then. And she was like, okay, like, screw you. I'll see you at 205. Like literally told him, I will see you at 205. I love them.

Get out of here. What? Wow. She was sassy. She was like, you're not going to lock me out. Starting off the night, right. Yeah. They argued a lot. They were really arguing a lot.

So her driver, Ernie Peters, which I just think Ernie is the cutest name ever, picked her up. and off to the party she went. She was dressed to the nines. She was wearing a metallic silvery blue evening gown, which was completely sequined. Ooh. A full-length mink coat, which we're not going to talk about. I was like, not awesome.

Not so great. That's okay. Blue silk slippers, which I'm like, silk slippers, like, oh, you're so decadent. And then she was dripping in like a modest $20,000 worth of jewelry, which also included diamond hair clasps like diamonds in your hair sleigh also this is this is in what year she's got $20,000 worth of jewelry in the 30s damn wild that was a time when money was a thing money was wild in back then money was having a moment yeah and she's like I'm just going to a party and I need to put my diamonds in my hair can someone help me with that he dripping dripping and

everything. So people said that at the party she was happy and cheerful, probably because she had $20,000 worth of jewelry on. I would be. Right. Some people claimed that she had some drinks, but she didn't seem drunk at all. And I've seen different accounts about this, but most sources say that Pat was there, her ex-husband, and he had been asked to be seated next to Thelma. But then to kind of like embarrass her, he didn't sit next to her and he went to a different table and was chatting it up with like this up and coming well-known actress at the time. Oh, fuck off, Pat. Yeah, he was like basically just like dick move.

What dude. So this obviously made Thelma mad. They got into a bit of a heated exchange. Some sources say. Now, other sources say that they didn't talk at all and that Pat wasn't even a guest at that particular party that night. He just happened to be at the Trocadero in like a different part of the bar. I love eyewitness accounts.

My favorite thing ever. He was there. No, he wasn't. Like, he was there and they fought. They danced. They made love. They got married. And then the next one is like, he wasn't even there. He literally wasn't even there. Right. Well, here's the thing. Either way, he definitely was there. It's just a matter of whether or not he and Thelma had a fight. But most sources say that they got into like a little tiff at that party. I would believe it. I think so. They'd seem to tiff whenever they saw each other. So Thelma was said to have asked a friend to call Roland and let him know that she would be on her. her way home soon. Now, this was around 150 a.m. So unless she's going to get home in 10 minutes, that door is going to be locked. Uh-oh. And now, really, she didn't end up leaving the party until a quarter after three in the morning. The door's definitely locked. To which I say like, party, sis. Love that for you. Yeah. That's the time my, my youngest wakes me up in the morning, actually. Yeah, that's actually very accurate. So that's where I am in life. Party, right? Party till three. wake up at three.

Yeah, so she definitely was not going to make it home to an unlocked door. And Stanley Lupino actually said later that the two of them got to talking about an idea that Felma had for a movie, one that she told him she fully owned the rights to and really wanted to work on with him. And he fully expected to talk to her about it the coming weekend. And he was super excited to kind of get this rolling. And with that, she headed home off to bed at 4 a.m. So on the way home, her driver.

said that she was unusually quiet. She was usually like really chatty. And he also said that she asked him to drive as fast as he could because she was worried about gangsters in the area. Interesting. Which I love that that was like a thing back then. Usually you're worried about like a skunk in the middle of the night. Yeah, or that somebody's following you. She's just worried about gangsters in the area. I'm worried about like coyotes. Which she meant like the, like she meant like mobsters by the way. Yeah. So when they got back to Thelma's place, it was about a quarter to four in the morning. And Ernie offered to walk her to the door. He always used to walk her to the door. Like, there was never a night that he didn't. But on this particular night, she said, no, it's okay.

Like, I'll just walk upstairs by myself, which he was like, it was weird that she did that because she had never done that, but I wasn't going to argue with her because he like couldn't. And she was worried about gangsters in the area. You know, worried about gangsters, but then doesn't want to be walked to her own front door. Hmm, a little weird. So she got out of the car. She walked up to the apartment and that was the last time anybody saw Falmatot alive. Dun, done, done. Dun, done. So no one is really sure what happened.

I get stuff thinking about how cold it must have been. Maybe that's like the wrong thing to bring in here. No, it's not. That beachfront property at 4 o'clock in the morning. That is chilly. And that was very cold. There's silk slippers. Those are not staying warm.

She's getting ice cold feet. Yeah, that's free. She did have a mink. Was it a coat? She had a mink floor length coat on. So she was probably pretty warm. All right. But you're right because they pointed out how cold it was and how we'll get into it in a sec of like where she's found. They're like, okay, like maybe we'll get into it. She got, she definitely got cold toes. We know that. Yeah, and those silk slippers. Yep. Yes. And all the diamonds. Oh, yes. All that ice. So it's so icy. It took a minute for that to click in my head. I was like, the diamonds are actually cold. Why those diamonds are cold? I'm not always quick on the, of the, you.

You know, anyways. Okay, we love you anyway. So, so yes, he was the last person to see her alive, other than maybe the person that killed her. So I lost my place. No one is really sure what happened between Thelma's arrival, home, and the Monday morning of December 16th. Because when Thelma was found dead that day, she was behind the wheel of her car, which she, like, loved, love, loved her car. It was a 1932 Lincoln Fayton, or Fayette. and there are tons of theories as to like how she ended up there.

Now, it's funny that you said that it was super cold because one of the main theories is that she was super cold, locked out of the apartment, so went to the garage and got in the car to stay warm. And they were like, maybe she turned the car on and she ended up getting like carbon monoxide poisoning and that's how she died. But there's so much more weird stuff that it doesn't sound like that happened, other than maybe she was cold and went up to the garage. I think that's just using the like locked, apartment theory. Yeah. And just being like, yep, that's what it was. Exactly. But there was more to this.

So a woman named May Whitehead was actually Thelma's maid and housekeeper. And she had been for quite some time. And she was set in her daily routine. The routine started with her driving her own car up to the garage. And the garage was right below where Roland and Jules Mansion was and like kind of adjacent to the restaurant and where Thelma lived. And all three business owners kept their car there. And it was known that they always kept it unlocked and they always kept their keys to the cars in the ignition, which doesn't seem like a really good thing. Classic safe. Yeah. Yeah. Super safe. Who needs a lock, not me. We all do that. Yeah. So her saves time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So May's routine is that she would park her own car there and then she would drive Thelma's car down to the cafe. So it was right there

if Thelma needed to go anywhere. So this morning, when she walked over to the car, she was, she walked over to the passenger side because she was going to be putting like some clothes in the car and like the passenger seat. But when she opened the door, she saw Thelma in the car and she thought at first that she was sleeping. And she was like, Thelma was kind of slumped over in the driver's seat and her head was facing to the left. So away from May at that point. But then she kind of got a closer look and it was clear that this 29 year old actress was dead. and just as quickly as she came to that realization, she also realized that there was a small amount of blood

pulled under Thelma's nose. Hmm. A little weird. A little weird. A little weird. Strange. Yeah. So she's terrified.

She's super upset. So she runs down to the cafe to find somebody to, like, help her. And the restaurant's treasurer was there. And when May explained what she had just found, like, stumbled upon, the man who was working at the cafe called Roland upstairs, who was asleep in the apartment. And true to his word, Roland had locked the doors to the apartment that night that Thelma had gone to the party.

And now he was feeling like a huge sting of regret. Like, this happened because I locked her out. Because it's like, you just went to sleep. Just didn't care what happened. And it was something that he had done, like, like a lot. Like, she was known to get locked out of the apartment. He's quite a guy. Yeah, he sucks.

So he's like feeling super regretful. He's like, obviously, this is my fault. And because that's the other thing. So this is Monday morning. That party had been on Saturday night. So something had happened on Saturday night. And then she had just been sitting there. And they knew that because she was still dressed in her party clothes when they found her.

Oh, damn. So eventually, I mean. So glamorous and terrible. I was going to say, I hate to say this, but like what an outfit to go in. Yeah. You know? If you had to choose, that would definitely be yours. If I had to choose, I would be wearing exactly that.

exactly well and and everything was still there i was just going to say yes all the jewels were still there so this was not like a robbery or something like that gone wrong that was like a super weird thing for them too so eventually everyone is showing up to this place the police there's a doctor there's another couple who worked at the restaurant there's reporters Elena was there over here everyone tend to call a doctor when somebody's been dead for two days like hey we got something for you. Do you have a cure? Do you have some vicks? Oh, man.

Let's come. Yikes. Do you have some for breeze? It's just the only question that you ask in that moment. Unfortunately. Although it was December, so it was cold. It was cold. Well, for California.

For the nighttime, I should say. It would be freezing. I'm telling you, it would be so cold. Because I'm thinking Massachusetts cold. Yeah, but overnight, so, right? California, so Los Angeles is the desert. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Like, it dips down way cold in the desert. the night right and then especially if you're beachfront like I yes I for some reason I just can't I when you were initially like he's gonna lock out to him I'm like this is a terrible situation because she's me so chilly like I'm not like this is like sounds so cold like this sounds very uncomfortable you could die of exposure oh for absolutely yeah for sure absolutely especially in that outfit I mean minus the coat but I mean that's still you know Like, what's that thing? Paradoxial undressing?

Yeah, that can start happening. You start getting naked. What is that? That's a thing, like the diet love pass incident. Mm-hmm. You get like hypothermia and you start like tricking yourself into thinking that you start taking things off. Your brain like thinks that you're hot and you're actually completely freezing and then you're even more freezing. And then you're found nude.

Yeah. And then it confuses everybody like the diet love past incident where they were like, why are they naked on this random. Liberian Mountain. Yeah. It's an embarrassing way to go. It's rough. It's rough. Not awesome.

Wouldn't she say it. What if you've been working on your bod? That's true. That would be great. Right now, like quarantine? Pandemic life? Not a good time to be found. Don't want to be found paradoxically undressed.

Not yet. Give me a few more months. Don't find yourself paradoxically undressed in any situation. No, thank you. So, yeah. So everybody is there at this crime scene. The reporters are trying to take picks. Like, friends are showing up because word is spreading around town.

In fact, one of Thelma's friends was actually in line at the bank, and he heard the news that this was all going on. And this sweet man rushed to her mother's house and, like, picked up her mom and, like, got her and told her before, like, a reporter called her. He was like, I just wanted to get there before a reporter called. Aw. What a friend. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah.

So she, so now the mom is there. And she immediately said, my daughter. So here's the other thing. Most people say that she immediately was like, my daughter has been murdered and then like walked out of the room like it was like a mystery game event. Can you imagine? But later on, later on she said that she never said that.

But everybody that said she did was like, nope, she absolutely said that. Hmm. It's like clue. It is. Oh, God. I like that. It's so hard to follow. And I just picture her like coming in there like May West-ish and just be like,

my daughter was murdered. And then my daughter, did I tell you? Throwing the bar. Boa over her shoulder and walking away. She actually just takes the main coat off of her body and walks away. She's like, I'm going to go now. So the blood under the nose, I get that. But like, this doesn't feel like a murder.

Tell me what else makes it feel like a murder. We'll get to that. This just feels like someone is cold and got in the car. Like an accident. And they're unlocked. He's in the ignition. Yes. Also, wait a minute.

Hang on a second. If the keys were in the ignition, why didn't she just drive her ass someone? somewhere. Correct. Exactly. Exactly. Go to a motel. You're asking the holiday in. The burning questions. Yeah. I like go up to Jules. Jules likes you if I got friends. Yeah. She's got friends. Yes. Pop in. Yeah. Say hello to Jules. Just be like, hey, Jules, you know how Roland is. Can I stay here? You know your husband? My guys. He locked me out. Yeah. So the manager of the cafe shows up, Rudy Schaefer and he later said, so two people noticed the blood under her nose and the first was

May and then the second was Roland and they said there was a small amount pulled underneath her nose. Rudy Schaefer begs to differ. He said that he noticed blood on Thelma's face as well as the bottom of her nose and said it spread all the way down to her mouth but looked like it had been wiped up by a handkerchief or something. So, who knows? Or it's smeared. Yeah, or it's smeared. So that wasn't the only weird thing surrounding Thelma's death, because for one thing, when she was discovered, the car was running. So whatever happened to her, like I said, presumably went down like a day and a half before when she'd gotten home from the party. So the car is running, but there's still two and a half gallons of gas in the car, a day and a half later. Oh.

Which is weird. Well, I don't, I mean, what's the, what are cars like? I was going to say, what's the fuel efficiency? What are cars? What does a car do? How does a car use gas? I feel like back then, too, the other thing is that they like, I feel like they wouldn't have been that good, you know?

I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know what the fuel efficiency of a link in phaeton. Or not back in the 20 or the 30. You know, I can't say that I looked that up because cars don't really interest me. I should ask Drew my boyfriend. There you go. Ask Drew.

I'll ask him when I get home and I'll report back later. But I think that's super weird. a day and a half later to have two and a half gallons in the car. And then here's what's weirder. How is the car even running? Because the battery was completely discharged when they discovered it. Huh. Wait, what?

The battery was discharged. How is the car even running? No, exactly. A car needs a battery, correct? I think I know that at least. I know I have a battery in mine. I think there's one in mine. Yeah, that's strange.

somebody crank in the engine? The hand crank? Like, so weird. What are you talking about? Like, how does this work? I'm like, the battery. Was it like, was the battery not there? Or was it just not charged?

It was discharged. Discharged, so. So there, but astray. I don't get it. Like, they, like, the car's running, they open the hood. They go. The battery. The battery, like, I don't get it.

What are you talking about? I don't get it either. It makes no sense. Like, the car's definitely. running, they open that hood, then like, it shouldn't be running. It doesn't make any sense. A ghost is running this car. Yeah, there's nothing that should work with this car. No, no, no. So, super duper weird. So now it's paranormal. Yes, now it is paranormal. It should just got real weird here. Now, here is where it's going to get even weirder, though, because the strangest thing about this entire thing is that people in Thelma's

life were reporting that they had either seen or heard from her that Sunday afternoon when the coroner reported that she most likely died very early on Sunday morning between 5 and 8 a.m. Get out. That's weird. I'm dead serious. And it's, what do you mean heard from? Okay. So, Jule, I'll give you the account.

So Jule Carmen, Roland's wife there, said that she had seen Thelma on Sunday afternoon in the passenger seat of a car being driven by a man she didn't recognize and Thelma was wearing a hat. I don't know about Jules. Yeah. That's not Felma. That one, we can say. We can scratch that one off. We can scratch that off.

I think Jewel was lying. The police also thought she was lying. Yeah, I wouldn't take Jules' words. No. The police were like, we don't really want to talk to you. Poor Jules. Bye. And so here's the other thing, though.

This one is really, really weird. So Thelma had also reportedly spoken with her friend Martha Ford on Sunday afternoon and was planning to go to a party at Martha's later that night with a mystery guest. Thelma herself, like, said, you are all going to die, like, when you see who I show up with. It's the Grim Reaper. Yes, you're all going to die. The Grim Reaper is here with me. Ultimate Entrance.

The ultimate. And Martha said she was, like, they were like, okay, did somebody else call you? Like, that knew that she was dead and was just trying to, like, mess with the time. And she was like, no, that was Thelma. I spoke to Thelma. I know I did. Huh. So you never find out, like, who the mystery guest was or anything.

Oh, that's going to kill me. So immediately. I know. I want to know who the guest is. It's a battery. It's the battery. Yes. So immediately people start remembering that actually right before Thelma's death, like a couple months previous, and right, like, around the same time that she opened to the cafe with Roland, she started getting like super threatening letters from different people who were clearly after her money and the cafe.

And the letter said things like, we will wreck that Santa Monica cafe of yours. So yes, you were right, Santa Monica. Ooh, there you go. And, quote, our San Francisco boys will lay you out. Ooh. Which I don't even, I don't even understand what that means. That's so spicy.

I feel like everybody was like, we are going to get you back then. So now, okay, so some, but not all of the letters, were traced to a man named Harry Shamansky. And he was from New York. I knew it was Harry Shamansky. It's always Harry Shamansky. It's always him. And he was arrested.

So he was behind bars at the time that she was murdered. so it wasn't him. And now the letters that weren't attributed to Harry were most likely, not like totally confirmed, but most likely from this other guy named Edward Schiffert, who was a fan of Thelma's, but he kind of thought, like, he got in his mind that they were involved in a relationship together, but like they definitely weren't. He got a little like, you know, got a little attached. Like a Rebecca Schaefer kind of situation. It's so funny that you said that. That's exactly what I was thinking of. Yes. That's scary. It is scary. And he was later actually committed. So both of these men were behind bars at the time that she died.

So it's neither of these men that sent like scary letters. But in my mind, and the more we get into this, you'll see why I think this. I think some of those letters, like especially the one that said like our San Francisco boys will lay you out had mob ties. Yeah. Because number one, that's like a very mobish thing to say. Number two, she's afraid of like the gangsters in the area. And then we'll get into like more of the mob stuff like a little bit toward the end. Huh.

So there were a few main suspects surrounding Thelma's death. And the first was Roland West. So I pointed out he was extremely jealous and overprotective when it came to Thelma. He literally locked her out of the house in case we forgot. He was also married, as we know. So that's kind of like a motive right there. Because it's like, did Jule just get sick of turning her head the other way and you had to get rid of Thelma kind of thing. Like I said, they had also been arguing a ton lately.

And by this point, the restaurant wasn't really doing that. well anymore. And it was reportedly because the mafia, Lucky Luciano in particular, was forcing them to buy liquor from this particular distributor. And it was at like a crazy price that they couldn't afford. So then they weren't making up that money. And Roland was also known to have mafia ties. And then this is the wild thing. On his deathbed, he claimed that he knew more about Thelma Todd's murder than he let on in the beginning. I love a deathbed confession. But he didn't, it like wasn't a deathbed confession because he didn't say like, I did it. He just said, I knew stuff. He just said, I know more. I know things. That's very odd. He like kind of OJated. He was like, if I did it, which I didn't, but I do know who did. Right, right, right.

It's right. It's a very Roland thing to do. It is. In my opinion. And his last words were Allison sauce. I'm totally kidding. So, so yeah, that's like all the dirt we have on Roland. Personally, I think, I sure, I think he knows what happened, but I don't think he was the one to really murder her. So our next suspect, we've got the ex-husband, Pat. And I feel like that's like there's so many obvious reasons for why he would have done it. Because obviously while they were married, their relationship was incredibly tumultuous. Pat was rumored to have thought that he and Thelma were getting back together, like I said in the beginning.

And he even told his family around the time of her. her death that they were working on it. But on Thelma's end, it didn't seem that way because she's talking about, like, moving on and dating different people and showing up to this party with some mystery guest. Like, I don't think the mystery guest was Pat. They also maybe had that argument at Stanley's party the last night that Thelma was seen alive, and nobody knows what the argument was over. They were just seen by some people arguing. Now, on top of that, and this is where we get to, like, how is this murder? Because during Thelma's autopsy, it was discovered that she had two cracked ribs, a broken nose, and bruising around her throat area and internal damage done to her throat.

Oh, that's murder. Oh, there you go. Moida. That is definitely Moira. I told you we'd get there. We got there. And obviously, like I said, Pat was known to have been abusive during their relationship, so he very well could have beaten her. And just like Roland, he was known to have mom. mob ties. Well, now I'm thinking about Roland again. I know. Like maybe they were on it together. Yeah, I was ready to throw Roland out. So we have one more suspect. And in my opinion, he did this. Well-known mobster, Lucky Luciano. Because Felma and Lucky actually had a brief relationship after she and Pat had divorced. And Lucky. Damn, Felma. I know. She was getting it. But she was like dangerous guys. She was gorgeous. But she, like I said, did not know how to pick them. So Lucky.

was rumored to actually have been pressuring Thelma to rent out the third floor of the cafe to him so that he and his mob buddies could use it as like a gambling space, like an underground casino kind of thing. Amazing. Now this is like, in my opinion, the smoking gun. She told him that was not happening. She literally told him, quote, over my dead body. And his response to her was that can be arranged. All right. So lucky Luciano did it. Now I have more compelling evidence. Barbara, Walter's on the case because while they were dating, Thelma was actually sober and Lucky was like not into sober people because he wasn't sober himself. So one night while they were hanging out, she refused his offer of some champagne and he was not having that. So he took the pot the bottle

and essentially shoved it down her throat. So could that have been like he did that and then he also shoved a hose down her throat of like from the gas line of giving her the carbon monoxide poisoning he's not afraid of putting things in people's throats oh damn oh damn that sounded a lot worse than i meant for it too i don't like this pathology that lucky luciano's developed no neither do i don't like it it sounds very mobby to me it sounds very moby and the weird thing is like i said during her autopsy there was internal damage to her throat in addition to like a ton of carbon monoxide so they thought like he took a hose from the gas line and like or i don't even know like this crazy ass car like looped it around the back or whatever like the exhaust i don't i don't understand how it works and then like was doing that to make it look like it was a suicide oh i mean i was just going to say that this seems like work that was not required Yes. Overkill. It seems like we're really, we, this is, it's a lot.

It's a lot going on here. But I feel like it was a lot in Old Hollywood. Like everything was just a lot. Everything was just extra. Yeah. But I feel like he had to have known, especially like a mobster, they have to know that like during the autopsy, they're going to find all those other injuries. Like you know, well, that's the weird thing.

So why even bother with the staging of making it look like carbon monoxide? because it's like you broke her ribs and her nose. Those are big. Like those get discovered pretty quick at an autopsy. Yeah. It is weird. Wow. I just, yeah, I don't know.

Very strange. It's so weird to me. I don't know if maybe he like decided like because he was so upset with her for not wanting the third floor casino thing to happen that like he was planning to offer anyway. And maybe he didn't even do it himself. Maybe he like sent one of his like people. Oh yeah. I'm sure he didn't. And one of them got like...

Definitely didn't do it himself. Right. And maybe one of them got like a little too into beating her up. And then they were like, crap. Like, we need to make this look like it was a suicide. So then they kind of like panicked and did that and got messy. That could be it. Or just to confuse everybody like we're confused.

Such a weird suicide though. The weirdest. You don't. You also don't need the hose. No. But you don't. Especially down the throat. Like, you don't need to place it directly where it needs to go.

Why else would there be in? internal damage to her throat. Like, it doesn't make sense. Unless maybe, I don't know if maybe it was, like, from, like, alcoholism. But was she that? I mean, that's, like, extraordinary. When you have, like, esophageal damage. Yeah.

And I don't think she would have done that. Years and years of, like, really abusing alcohol. Yeah, I don't think she would have done that in the short time she was in Hollywood. Because she died when she was 29 and she was around, like, 21, 22 when she got to Hollywood. I mean, she was pretty young for that. But I don't know what. how hard she was going, but...

That's the thing. But that's strange. Yeah. It's so weird. So the thing that sucks, too, is that no one will ever know what happened to Thelma because a grand jury decided that her death was a suicide. And the police, like, rushed the investigation. The other thing is that they let everybody treps through the crime scene. So if there was any evidence, it was gone by the time they got there.

And they also were known to be a very corrupt police department who had mob ties. Huh. So maybe they were just, they were rushing to cover this up. Perhaps. Because they didn't want their boys to be upset. Back then they were not awesome

at the whole securing the crime scene thing. That seems to be a pattern. They were not good at that at all. I know. I wanted to see a picture of her and it is, it's one of those things where you can, I mean, that's a bummer, but there are photos just of her.

There's just photos of the crime scene. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like her in the car, right? Yeah, like literally like slumped over in the car being carried out of the car. Like all stages. Oh, I don't think that. Where you're like, oh, damn. Should be just a photo I can find.

No. Just in Google images. That happens a lot to us. Like we'll post pictures just like, I'll try to find like a picture of like the person that did the crime. And I'll end up seeing a picture of the victim online and being like, I didn't want to see that. Like, no. Yeah. Yeah.

That happened during the Ian Brady and Myra Hindley case. Oh, it was horrible. And I was like, wow. that's going to haunt me for the rest of my life because I just happened to be I was looking for a picture of them or something and I just happened to go into Google images and it was like boom and it was one of the victim's photos and they were kids and I was like okay I'm destroyed now oh god yeah and the exact same thing happened to me and I literally I will wake up at like four o'clock in the morning sometimes and think of that and I'm like oh I'm like why is it in there it's awful but that guys is the thelmatad case and nobody knows what happened What do we think? Cameron, you go first. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think that the, I think the, I think the lucky one makes the most sense.

Although, like, again, it just does sound, oh, man, am I going to say this? It's like, it's like, oh, my shoulders are slumping. You never want to be a 29-year-old person. And then after your dad, it's like there's three people that it's like all seem reason, that reasonably believe they would have killed you. and two of them are your lovers. You know, like, you just don't want there to be like, right. Oh, yeah, three of them.

Yeah. They're all, like, people you've had intimate relationships with that are so dangerous that everybody's like, well, could have been any of these people. Like, that's just a true bummer. Yeah. It really is. It is. That's the tragedy here.

I know. I feel like the fact that, like, Roland on his deathbed there was like, I know things. I know all the things. I think he was involved with like the mob thing. Yeah. And maybe it was like a group, group effort. That's what I kind of think that it was kind of, all of them had mob ties. They're all in the same area.

They're all involved with Felma. So it's kind of like it all, it's like the perfect storm. Or, you know, he could also have found out after in terms of like that, you know, I mean, that's the thing. That's so, that it's like if everybody was business associates through. that through working together in the mob, then they wouldn't have, nobody would have turned each other in. No, of course not. Right. So they could have, they would have just, they could have just said, this is what happened. Yeah, he might just know of this. And he would have been like, okay, you know. I'm going to keep that one. I wish he had said it though. Okay, I will do nothing

with that information. Yeah, it's like you're exiting. Like, you're not going to be affected by this. Like, could we just please know what happened? Yeah, just let it all out. I don't know, though. It's such a weird case because on the other side of it, like you were kind of saying, like, she's involved with all these shady people. So it really could have just been like kind of an accident. Like she went up to the car to get warm. She left the car running. She got the carbon monoxide poisoning. And then it just kind of like worked that all these shady people were in her life. So it kind of just took off. But how'd she break her nose and her ribs? Accurate. So yeah. It's one of those things that I feel like I just keep going back and forth on. Unless that happened at some other point,

during the night or something and nobody knew and that's why Ernie said she was quiet maybe she was in pain that's true and even and she was worried about the gangsters or her and someone got in a fight and something happened or she fell or yeah and she was quiet because she was in pain and she was like I just want to get upstairs don't walk me there because you're going to figure it out and then she couldn't get in so she goes and sit in the car I don't I think I solved it I think that was like a really good point actually I didn't even think of that it could have happened before so I think I just solved it guys He's closed. And there was a fight at the party.

Because a lot of people said there was at least an argument. Yeah. Right. It's one of those things where I feel like you'll just never settle. Like I did this case at one of our like first live shows. So that's why I decided to do it again because I feel like I got a little bit better with my research skills. I actually ended up finding a lot more than I found the first time. But still, even like the first time I did it to now, I've gone back and forth so many times on what I think happened.

Yeah. I mean, overall, it's like, what happened is that this person was just disposable to multiple people. Which is so sad. I know. It's all those old Hollywood cases. They all have that kind of like underlying tone of just sadness. Yeah. For sure.

But I mean, that doesn't, again, it like doesn't feel different to me to now, you know, like, especially when it's a young person who is working in the industry and there's like a tragic death. And there's that like sort of outpouring of mourning. but then we move on as a culture because we do. I mean, honestly, not to like super personalize it, but really taking it back to what we were talking about the very beginning. When I was talking about like finding a job that's an outlet for your feelings, but then trusting that to be something that will take care of you. You know, like the industry is not your friend,

an audience is not your friend. And I think that that can be really confusing. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And so, you know, that's like when all these really terrible stories come together, it's because somebody wasn't protected and they trusted the wrong thing. They trusted $20,000 worth of jewels and cool beachfront restaurant. And that didn't have people that were really able to keep them safe or that care about keeping them safe. And it's so sad when the family is involved, too, like the fact that her mom,

just her mom was a really shady character. Yeah, she kind of aided and getting her in the machine. Yeah. So she just kind of had no one. Poor Thelma. I know. Justice for Thelma. Absolutely.

But on a lighter note, thank you so much for joining us. It was so cool hanging out with you. This was so much fun. It was cool hanging out with you, too. I really like you too. I really like you. Look at that. Now we're friends.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Is there anything that you want to like plug, announce, where can we find you? Yes, plug away. Well, I got a zillion things I'm working on. But right now, honestly, it's just dog photos. Keep working on them. I love them. Keep going. I mean, that's front-facing.

So, like, I'll, don't worry. I'll keep working on this other stuff. And maybe there'll be big things in the future. But in the meantime, please keep up with my dog photos via all of my social media accounts. Yes. Yes. Do it. It's worth it, everybody, I promise.

It definitely is. And guys, everyone listening, go follow Cameron on everything. Go get Cameron's book. I just got the hardcover copy. I was like, I need her to, like, virtually sign it or something. I wish that was a thing. And it's so good. There you go.

It's so good. You guys will love it. And as always, guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Bye. Bye.